Plot holes in Star Trek Nemesis
Scott Dubin
dumb, dumb, film, I guess I'll do it myself. It's not like I've
memorised the movie or anything so I'll probably miss stuff, but.
1) The Enterprise is sent to Romulan space because its the "nearest
ship," even though theres no immediate crisis. They would logically
send the best diplomats, not any other Starship nearby. That's not
the plot hole, however. The villian somehow magically knows Picard is
coming, even though choosing the Enterprise for the mission was a
completly random decision by Janeway or whoever?
2) Aside from the logic of randomly detecting Data's brother from
whatever random planet it was on, how the heck did the villian know
they'd find Data's brother? Space is a pretty big place. You'd have
to know what ship was being assigned, their starting location, the
path they'd take, and you'd have to set it up way in advance.
3) The Romulan homeworld has no ships? Did they have a small
animation budget or something? Worf says, "Let's raise sheilds" after
sitting there for eighteen hours waiting for the Romulan ship to
arrive?
4) The bad guys kidnap Picard, cloak their ship, and just lets the
Enterpise stay there in the center of the Romulan empire. The crew
just kinda hangs around twiddling their thumbs. Oh, I forgot, the
Romulans only have 3 ships.
5) The Romulan military randomly decides they'd like to be ruled by
their former slaves, the Remans? I mean, a military coup makes sense,
but put the Remans in charge. I mean, the military woman killed the
senate... the Remans had nothing to do with it!
6) The romulans and Remans come togethor to put a crazy human guy in
charge of the Empire? "You know what we need, some crazy human guy to
lead our empire. Any can he be the evil twin clone of some federation
hero, so they can have a big climactic confrontation? Maybe he can be
really spooky and hang out in a dark, death star type throne room?"
Naturally, the entire universe revolves around Picard. From the borg
to the Romulans, everyone needs an evil Picard.
7) The military decides to turn on the Picard clone guy, and they do
with 2 little little ships, that look like klingon ships, so I thought
at first they were imitating the next generation episode where the
Klingon ships decloaked in Romulan space and save the Enterprise at a
convinient plot moment.
8) So the slow countdown sequence to the firing of the Superweapon
had begun (James Bond style.) And instead of doing the obvious thing
and sending over a taskforce, Picard decides to go alone? Because he
has such a great chance of singlehandidly defeating all the Remans on
the enemy ship?
9) So, the bad guys have to wait till the Enterpise reaches some
"rift' to attack, because their communications would be down? What
good is that? The Enterprise already knew they were going to be
attacked, because the evil clone wanted to kill Picard and the
Enterprise would have had plenty of time to warn them about the
Superweapon along the way before the rift.
Hmm, that was a lot. Who can possibly take Star Trek seriously
anymore? The writers certainly don't.
Terrafamilia
Keeper of the Purple Twilight wrote:
> In article <887734a2.02122...@posting.google.com>, Scott
> Dubin <scott...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Since I haven't seen anyone else pointing out the plot holes in this
> > dumb, dumb, film, I guess I'll do it myself. It's not like I've
> > memorised the movie or anything so I'll probably miss stuff, but.
> > The villian somehow magically knows Picard is
> > coming, even though choosing the Enterprise for the mission was a
> > completly random decision by Janeway or whoever?
>
> Shinzon planted those pieces of B-4 on that planet, so logically Picard
> would come (since Data would want to find pieces of his 'brother).
> Shinzon was using B-4 as bait.
According to scriptwriter logic.
> > 2) Aside from the logic of randomly detecting Data's brother from
> > whatever random planet it was on
>
> Soong-type androids (like Data and B-4) emit a specific kind of
> radiation which can be easily detectable.
They said it was barely detectable or at the edge of their detection capability
or some words to that effect. Of course, their computer seems to have been
programmed ahead of time to set off an alarm at the barest whiff of the stuff.
The sensors would have to be able to disregard the signals coming from Data or
his presence would completely swamp them. On top of that, each part of B4 was
giving off the positronic signal not just the part where his positronic brain is
located. Does this imply a positronic nervous system not just a positronic
brain?
Ciao,
Terrafamilia
A Bag Of Memes
"Keeper of the Purple Twilight" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:231220021044490684%n...@spam.invalid...
> > dumb, dumb, film, I guess I'll do it myself. It's not like I've
> > memorised the movie or anything so I'll probably miss stuff, but.
> >
> > 1) The Enterprise is sent to Romulan space because its the "nearest
> > ship," even though theres no immediate crisis. They would logically
> > send the best diplomats, not any other Starship nearby. That's not
> > the plot hole, however.
>
>
> > The villian somehow magically knows Picard is
> > coming, even though choosing the Enterprise for the mission was a
> > completly random decision by Janeway or whoever?
>
> would come (since Data would want to find pieces of his 'brother).
> Shinzon was using B-4 as bait.
But how did Shinzon know they would find B4? His entire scheme rests on
that.
> >
> > 2) Aside from the logic of randomly detecting Data's brother from
> > whatever random planet it was on
>
> Soong-type androids (like Data and B-4) emit a specific kind of
> radiation which can be easily detectable.
>
> > , how the heck did the villian know
> > they'd find Data's brother?
>
> Because he put B-4 in a place where he *knew* the Enterprise would find
> it.
But that's the plot hole. How did he know?
Zodiac69
> ship," even though theres no immediate crisis. They would logically
> send the best diplomats, not any other Starship nearby. That's not
> the plot hole, however. The villian somehow magically knows Picard is
> coming, even though choosing the Enterprise for the mission was a
> completly random decision by Janeway or whoever?
Well, Picard has a dipolmatic past, and then there's Ambassador Worf, he'd
got some experience in the Federation Dept. of State. By the way, they
never mentioned why Worf wasn't an ambassador anymore. Thank kind of pissed
me off.
>
> 2) Aside from the logic of randomly detecting Data's brother from
> whatever random planet it was on, how the heck did the villian know
> they'd find Data's brother? Space is a pretty big place. You'd have
> to know what ship was being assigned, their starting location, the
> path they'd take, and you'd have to set it up way in advance.
I guess Posatronic signals are rare and can be broadcasted, and the
Enterprise always scans for posatronic symbols. Seriously though, B-4 was
lame, like a "Rainman Data." I wish they would have found a way to
resurrect Lore somehow. Or at least mentioned. But I would have marked for
an Evil Lore helping Shinzon destroy the Federation.
>
> 3) The Romulan homeworld has no ships? Did they have a small
> animation budget or something? Worf says, "Let's raise sheilds" after
> sitting there for eighteen hours waiting for the Romulan ship to
> arrive?
The Remans control the Romulan ships, so I guess that's logical.
>
> 4) The bad guys kidnap Picard, cloak their ship, and just lets the
> Enterpise stay there in the center of the Romulan empire. The crew
> just kinda hangs around twiddling their thumbs. Oh, I forgot, the
> Romulans only have 3 ships.
That was kind of lame.
> 5) The Romulan military randomly decides they'd like to be ruled by
> their former slaves, the Remans? I mean, a military coup makes sense,
> but put the Remans in charge. I mean, the military woman killed the
> senate... the Remans had nothing to do with it!
But she collaborated with them.
>
> 6) The romulans and Remans come togethor to put a crazy human guy in
> charge of the Empire? "You know what we need, some crazy human guy to
> lead our empire. Any can he be the evil twin clone of some federation
> hero, so they can have a big climactic confrontation? Maybe he can be
> really spooky and hang out in a dark, death star type throne room?"
> Naturally, the entire universe revolves around Picard. From the borg
> to the Romulans, everyone needs an evil Picard.
Well, Shinzon was all about destroying the Federation, and there were
apparently elements who agreed that that was the way to go.
> 7) The military decides to turn on the Picard clone guy, and they do
> with 2 little little ships, that look like klingon ships, so I thought
> at first they were imitating the next generation episode where the
> Klingon ships decloaked in Romulan space and save the Enterprise at a
> convinient plot moment.
Point taken.
>
> 8) So the slow countdown sequence to the firing of the Superweapon
> had begun (James Bond style.) And instead of doing the obvious thing
> and sending over a taskforce, Picard decides to go alone? Because he
> has such a great chance of singlehandidly defeating all the Remans on
> the enemy ship?
Why not just send the entire Enterprise crew over there anyway? The super
Dr. Evil weapon would have killed only the plants in the arriburitum and
possibly Spot, while everyone else would be on the Sckimtar kicking ass.
Then they could have commendeered the ship, taken it back to the Federation,
and had one bad ass warship.
>
> 9) So, the bad guys have to wait till the Enterpise reaches some
> "rift' to attack, because their communications would be down? What
> good is that? The Enterprise already knew they were going to be
> attacked, because the evil clone wanted to kill Picard and the
> Enterprise would have had plenty of time to warn them about the
> Superweapon along the way before the rift.
Yeah, but then the fleet wouldn't be able to find them and shit. They can't
send out an e-mail saying "Hey, bad guys over here, a little help please!"
being that they were in the rift.
> Hmm, that was a lot. Who can possibly take Star Trek seriously
> anymore? The writers certainly don't.
Ambassador Worf! They should have mentioned that. And why was Wes in a
starfleet uniform, isn't he some sort of magical supergod now?
Zodiac69
the future of RSPW
SKNavis
>would come (since Data would want to find pieces of his 'brother).
>Shinzon was using B-4 as bait.
Where the hell did Shinzon find B-4 (let alone learn of his existance) in the
first place?? Some have suggested that the Romulans or Remans created him,
perhaps scanning him when he was on Romulus, but that's just ludicrous. The
Federation's had his specs for years, and they hadn't been able to duplicate
Data.
Of course, how Shinzon rose up from being a slave to gaining such political
influence and building this nearly invulnerable ship with its "perfect cloak"
is a mystery too.
Peace,
Shaun
SKNavis
Of course they should have.
>And why was Wes in a
>starfleet uniform, isn't he some sort of magical supergod now?
It was dumb enough to cut his lines and just have him sitting there, but having
him in a Starfleet uniform with no expalantion is even worse. Wil's a good guy
and he deserved better than that.
Peace,
Shaun
Greg
worst of it is some of them would have been fixed with 1 or 2 lines of
dialog
--
___________________________________________________________________
"I'm overworked but I'm undersexed" -Garbage 'Hammering In My Head'
George M. Chavis
Okay, just a few of my Nemesis nits:
1. First, the cinematography sucked. Maybe it was the crappy theater I was
in (and it was crappy), but the desert sequence was really visually
terrible.
2. When did 24th Century Earth revert back to the combustion engine? That
dune buggy sequence was pitiful, and the leap off of the cliff into the
suttle pod's bay would have made Evil Kinevil proud. NOT! Since Data could
control the ship with his palm pilot,why not just have the thing beam
everyone (including "Speed Buggy") into the shuttle's bay?
3. When they found "Stupid Data" I couldn't believe no one even mentioned
Lor's name (Data seemed to be thinking about it). But then they brought
Stupid onboard without any security; Picard ordered it reassembled; Geordi
does a complete data dump of Data's (Enterprise's) memory banks ("Hey,
Geordi--what's this thing on the back of Stupid's neck?" "Oh, just a secret
dataport with encrypted code to steal all of our precious bodily
fluids--nothing to worry about."); they leave Stupid alone so it can rape
the computer logs.
4. Someone asked how did Shinzon know the Enterprise would find Stupid? I
want to know how Picard knew Shinzon's plan for Stupid? And how did they
get Stupid off the Remus ship after they (Picard and Data) escaped?
5. Believe it or not, NCC 1701 was the sturdiest Enterprise ever. Every
since TNG, every Enterprise vessel seems to be made of cardboard. One
friggin phaser hit and shields are reduced by 50%, but once they get to 10%
strength, they seem to be able to hold up for the bulk of the attack! And
what happened to those bad-ass photon torpedoes we saw in ST: First Contact
and ST: Insurrection? The ones that decimated the Borg and the Son'a?
6. The question about Worf's ambassadorship. I think some folks have
forgotten the parallel time lines of the series and the movies. Worf was
promoted to LtCmdr in ST: Generations and after Enterprise D was destroyed
(thanks, Riker!) he joined the staff at Deep Space 9. After the war with
the Dominion, Worf left DS9 and took command of the Defiant where it was
destroyed in a battle with the Borg (ST: First Contact). He was brought
onboard to serve as tactical officer of Enterprise E during First Contact,
and also served on the crew during ST: Insurrection. ST: Nemesis is a
continuation of that timeline. While all of this was going on, Voyager was
putzing around the Gamma quadrant with the 4Bs (Big Boobed Borg Babe),
that's why Janeway is an Admiral and Picard is not.
7. That "Let-me-beam-over-by-myself-and-kick-their-asses-with-my-shotgun"
bit by Picard was not as hilarious as Data's "leap of faith." And he just
happened to find a backdoor onto their ship (and he knew how to open it!)
8. How is it the Star Trek universe needs a universal translator, but no
matter what race of beings they encouter, everyone (including the lowliest
crewman) seems to be able to "read" the instrument panels of any alien ship,
control panel, junction box, whatever! (In the Romulan (or was it a
Remusan) fighter: Picard: "What do you think that is, Data?" Data: "The
port thrusters, sir. Or....maybe the self-destruct trigger. Or....maybe
the 'ATR'" (automatic tampon remover!))
9. Assuming there is no 10-Forward on Enterprise E, everyone in the bow of
the ship died when they crashed into the Shinzon ship.
10. That seven-minute countdown for the Doomday Weapon, and the slow,
deliberate preparation sequence was, in a word: precious! Reminded me of
the Joker, Riddler and the Penquin and their slow-motion attempts to kill
Batman. As Darth Helmet said in "Spaceballs" after hearing the command:
"Prepare to transport": "What's with all the 'preparing?' Just do it!"
11. The one good thing Rick Berman did: not giving Wesley Crusher any
lines!
G. Chavis
WickeddollŽ
"George M. Chavis" <gch...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:au8nr0$9ak$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> Just came home from the theater....(yawn!!)
>
> Okay, just a few of my Nemesis nits:
>
> 1. First, the cinematography sucked. Maybe it was the crappy theater I
was
> in (and it was crappy), but the desert sequence was really visually
> terrible.
It was the theater - the film looked spectactular at my local venue
>
> 2. When did 24th Century Earth revert back to the combustion engine?
That
> dune buggy sequence was pitiful, and the leap off of the cliff into the
> suttle pod's bay would have made Evil Kinevil proud. NOT! Since Data
could
> control the ship with his palm pilot,why not just have the thing beam
> everyone (including "Speed Buggy") into the shuttle's bay?
I thought of that too - but I didn't wanna spoil how cool it looked jumping
into the shuttle LOL
>
> 3. When they found "Stupid Data" I couldn't believe no one even mentioned
> Lor's name (Data seemed to be thinking about it). But then they brought
> Stupid onboard without any security; Picard ordered it reassembled; Geordi
> does a complete data dump of Data's (Enterprise's) memory banks ("Hey,
> Geordi--what's this thing on the back of Stupid's neck?" "Oh, just a
secret
> dataport with encrypted code to steal all of our precious bodily
> fluids--nothing to worry about."); they leave Stupid alone so it can rape
> the computer logs.
>
That was really dumb - I mentioned it in my comments as well
> 4. Someone asked how did Shinzon know the Enterprise would find Stupid?
I
> want to know how Picard knew Shinzon's plan for Stupid? And how did they
> get Stupid off the Remus ship after they (Picard and Data) escaped?
I think when Data and Geordi found the source of the transmission, they
figured things out. I don't know.
>
> 5. Believe it or not, NCC 1701 was the sturdiest Enterprise ever. Every
> since TNG, every Enterprise vessel seems to be made of cardboard. One
> friggin phaser hit and shields are reduced by 50%, but once they get to
10%
> strength, they seem to be able to hold up for the bulk of the attack! And
> what happened to those bad-ass photon torpedoes we saw in ST: First
Contact
> and ST: Insurrection? The ones that decimated the Borg and the Son'a?
Dunno - but that was a cool sequence
>
> 6. The question about Worf's ambassadorship. I think some folks have
> forgotten the parallel time lines of the series and the movies. Worf was
> promoted to LtCmdr in ST: Generations and after Enterprise D was destroyed
> (thanks, Riker!) he joined the staff at Deep Space 9. After the war with
> the Dominion, Worf left DS9 and took command of the Defiant where it was
> destroyed in a battle with the Borg (ST: First Contact). He was brought
> onboard to serve as tactical officer of Enterprise E during First Contact,
> and also served on the crew during ST: Insurrection. ST: Nemesis is a
> continuation of that timeline. While all of this was going on, Voyager
was
> putzing around the Gamma quadrant with the 4Bs (Big Boobed Borg Babe),
> that's why Janeway is an Admiral and Picard is not.
I never got a chance to see DS9, so I don't know :-(
>
> 7. That "Let-me-beam-over-by-myself-and-kick-their-asses-with-my-shotgun"
> bit by Picard was not as hilarious as Data's "leap of faith." And he just
> happened to find a backdoor onto their ship (and he knew how to open it!)
They're geniuses, I tell you!
>
> 8. How is it the Star Trek universe needs a universal translator, but no
> matter what race of beings they encouter, everyone (including the lowliest
> crewman) seems to be able to "read" the instrument panels of any alien
ship,
> control panel, junction box, whatever! (In the Romulan (or was it a
> Remusan) fighter: Picard: "What do you think that is, Data?" Data: "The
> port thrusters, sir. Or....maybe the self-destruct trigger. Or....maybe
> the 'ATR'" (automatic tampon remover!))
:-)
>
> 9. Assuming there is no 10-Forward on Enterprise E, everyone in the bow
of
> the ship died when they crashed into the Shinzon ship.
*shrug*
>
> 10. That seven-minute countdown for the Doomday Weapon, and the slow,
> deliberate preparation sequence was, in a word: precious! Reminded me of
> the Joker, Riddler and the Penquin and their slow-motion attempts to kill
> Batman. As Darth Helmet said in "Spaceballs" after hearing the command:
> "Prepare to transport": "What's with all the 'preparing?' Just do it!"
Um...gotta snag you on that. In military jargon, it means 'Be ready to do
it at my command'
>
> 11. The one good thing Rick Berman did: not giving Wesley Crusher any
> lines!
>
>
> G. Chavis
>
>
And leave us not forget, not putting nekked Betazoid wedding Riker on the
screen!
Natalie
Sean Wilkinson
"Scott Dubin" <scott...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:887734a2.02122...@posting.google.com...
> Naturally, the entire universe revolves around Picard.
I thought it was Triple H...
Starfleet Wrestling Entertainment - "where Picard enforces the
deflector-shield ceiling."
--
- Sean
#11 on RSPW's Top 100 Posters List
---- ---- ---- ---- ----
BLAAAAAAA! BROCK LESNAR!
---- ---- ---- ---- ----
"I'm the King Ad Hoc/I will be sire
I was born Aragorn/But you can call me Strider."
- "The Lords of the Rhymes"
George M. Chavis
"WickeddollŽ" <wickeddoll195...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:au8p14$57qto$1...@ID-125536.news.dfncis.de...
> > 10. That seven-minute countdown for the Doomday Weapon, and the slow,
> > deliberate preparation sequence was, in a word: precious! Reminded me
of
> > the Joker, Riddler and the Penquin and their slow-motion attempts to
kill
> > Batman. As Darth Helmet said in "Spaceballs" after hearing the command:
> > "Prepare to transport": "What's with all the 'preparing?' Just do it!"
>
> Um...gotta snag you on that. In military jargon, it means 'Be ready to do
> it at my command'
I didn't mean it that way. I knew what the command means, but in
"Spaceballs" Mel Brooks made a joke out of that particular piece of military
jargon. What he was saying was, forget all the preparing, just do it, dang
it! In every Star Trek series, when precious seconds are ticking away,
Geordi, Worf, Riker, Scott, Kim, Paris--all of 'em, would shout out:
"Preparing to uncouple the warpcoil phase inducers!!!" Then Picard,
Janeway, Sisko, et al, would shout back: "Engage!" or "Proceed!!" or "$%&@!
Press the friggin button!" (smile) The point is, don't waste time telling
me you're going to do it--just DO IT! On the other hand, when you have the
protagonist cornered, instead of just killing him, villains have an annoying
tendency to tie their victims up then dip them in a pool swarming with
sharks with friggin laser beams implanted in their friggin heads! So, on
Nemesis, why couldn't Evil Picard just hit the "fire" button to destroy
Enterprise E with the radiation thingies? Noooo! This thing needed a
warm-up, prep, and set-up period before it could be ready to be prepared to
be fired! Sheeesh!
And that reminds me. Picard went to the Shinzon ship stop the radiation
thingies from destroying Enterprise. But for whatever reason, he became
mesmerized by the death of his evil "Mini me" and completely forgot about
the time bomb slowly ticking away the final minute.
GC
Ruediger LANDMANN
: me you're going to do it--just DO IT! On the other hand, when you have the
: protagonist cornered, instead of just killing him, villains have an annoying
: tendency to tie their victims up then dip them in a pool swarming with
: sharks with friggin laser beams implanted in their friggin heads! So, on
Take a look at:
http://home.dogomania.com/Dunvegan/Flabbymama/OfficeJokes.html
and scroll down to the heading "For those considering a career move" or
just search for "evil overlord" :)
GeneK
"George M. Chavis" <gch...@ix.netcom.com> wrote...
> On the other hand, when you have the
> protagonist cornered, instead of just killing him, villains have an annoying
> tendency to tie their victims up then dip them in a pool swarming with
> sharks with friggin laser beams implanted in their friggin heads!
Not to mention the inevitable: "Since you'll never be able to use the information,
I'm going to lay out my entire evil master plan for you now, including the 37
digit code that will disarm all my secret weapons and render me defenseless."
GeneK
David B.
> Ambassador Worf! They should have mentioned that.
They did but they cut it.
> And why was Wes in a
> starfleet uniform, isn't he some sort of magical supergod now?
Maybe 9 years ago. We haven't seen or heard from Wesley in 9 years.
Things can change.
Greg
data that shinzon beamed over
"George M. Chavis" wrote:
>
> Just came home from the theater....(yawn!!)
>
> Okay, just a few of my Nemesis nits:
>
>
> 4. Someone asked how did Shinzon know the Enterprise would find Stupid? I
> want to know how Picard knew Shinzon's plan for Stupid? And how did they
> get Stupid off the Remus ship after they (Picard and Data) escaped?
>
>
> G. Chavis
Erich Becker
> since TNG, every Enterprise vessel seems to be made of cardboard. One
> friggin phaser hit and shields are reduced by 50%, but once they get to 10%
> strength, they seem to be able to hold up for the bulk of the attack! And
> what happened to those bad-ass photon torpedoes we saw in ST: First Contact
> and ST: Insurrection? The ones that decimated the Borg and the Son'a?
There are all kinds of problems with this because in Star Trek First
Contact the Enterprise has QUANTUM torpedoes, not PHOTON, but in
Nemesis they are back to the old ones that the Enterprise D carried.
As for the preparing, I don't think there is any bigger problem than
in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, it takes them like eight minutes
to load a torpedoe as it slllooowwwwllllyyy goes down the conveyor
belt to the launcher. I was like Yikes! I understand that they are
working on it, but it seems way to slow going down to the launcher
while the Reliant is blowing the hell out of the Enterprise.
-Becker
WickeddollŽ
Gotcha
>
> And that reminds me. Picard went to the Shinzon ship stop the radiation
> thingies from destroying Enterprise. But for whatever reason, he became
> mesmerized by the death of his evil "Mini me" and completely forgot about
> the time bomb slowly ticking away the final minute.
>
> GC
>
>
>
Yeah - I thought he was wasting time there as well
Natalie
A Bag Of Memes
"Keeper of the Purple Twilight" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote in message
> In article <de2c68d4.02122...@posting.google.com>, Erich
> Becker <erich...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > There are all kinds of problems with this because in Star Trek First
> > Contact the Enterprise has QUANTUM torpedoes, not PHOTON, but in
> > Nemesis they are back to the old ones that the Enterprise D carried.
>
>
> Besides, there are several possibilities:
>
> 1) The Enterprise could have been *out* of quantum torpedoes
Which brings up a good question:
How many quantum torpedoes does one normally take to a wedding?
Joseph Nebus
>"Keeper of the Purple Twilight" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote in message
>news:241220021159196191%n...@spam.invalid...
>> 1) The Enterprise could have been *out* of quantum torpedoes
>Which brings up a good question:
>How many quantum torpedoes does one normally take to a wedding?
That depends how well the family of the bride and the family of
the groom get along.
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, the haQ'fiilds and the McCoys ...
K.Wylde
Me Marks for days....
KW!
WickeddollŽ
"Joseph Nebus" <neb...@rpi.edu> wrote in message
news:auahku$i...@viper.nic.rpi.edu...
> "A Bag Of Memes" <a@b.c> writes:
>
>
> >"Keeper of the Purple Twilight" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote in message
> >news:241220021159196191%n...@spam.invalid...
> >> 1) The Enterprise could have been *out* of quantum torpedoes
>
> >Which brings up a good question:
>
> >How many quantum torpedoes does one normally take to a wedding?
>
>
> That depends how well the family of the bride and the family of
> the groom get along.
>
> Joseph Nebus
LOL!
You guys
Natalie
David B.
>
> > 5. Believe it or not, NCC 1701 was the sturdiest Enterprise ever. Every
> > since TNG, every Enterprise vessel seems to be made of cardboard. One
> > friggin phaser hit and shields are reduced by 50%, but once they get to 10%
> > strength, they seem to be able to hold up for the bulk of the attack! And
> > what happened to those bad-ass photon torpedoes we saw in ST: First Contact
> > and ST: Insurrection? The ones that decimated the Borg and the Son'a?
>
> There are all kinds of problems with this because in Star Trek First
> Contact the Enterprise has QUANTUM torpedoes, not PHOTON, but in
> Nemesis they are back to the old ones that the Enterprise D carried.
Quantum torpedoes weren't mentioned by name but the Enterprise-E was
firing them. Quantum torpedoes were seen visually however. The blue
streaks coming from the Enterprise-E are quantum torpedoes.
George M. Chavis
> Take a look at:
>
> http://home.dogomania.com/Dunvegan/Flabbymama/OfficeJokes.html
>
> and scroll down to the heading "For those considering a career move" or
> just search for "evil overlord" :)
>
That was a hilarious website! Running an evil empire is not easy work!
I've copied some of the most relevant Evil Overloard Rules that should apply
to Nemesis. While I was reading this list (and laughing uncontrollably, I
also remembered the opening sequence in Nemesis: A senator unexplicably
excuses herself from the "this-could-be-a-new-beginning-for-the-empire"
discussions. As she departs a wierd-looking device she conspicuously leaves
on the table--12 inches from Senate President--starts to unfold (very
slowly) emits a strange (slowly developing) light show. It's not until this
thing is fully engaged does anyone notice it. Everyone sits calmly,
enthralled, and watches the growing tabletop pyrotechnic display and
suddenly there's a small explosion filling the room with a strange green
mist. Everyone remains calm and "ooo's" and "aaah's" while anthrax and
small pox rain down on them--no one gets up and runs for the door (just 5
feet away)!
SELECTED EVIL OVERLORD RULES:
2. My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through.
8. When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me,
will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No" and shoot
him.
10. I will not include a self-destruct mechanism unless absolutely
necessary. If it is necessary, it will not be a large red button labeled
"Danger: Do Not Push." The big red button marked "Do Not Push" will instead
trigger a spray of bullets on anyone stupid enough not to disregard it.
Similarly, the ON/OFF switch will not clearly be labeled as such. There
will be no Plug.
20.I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that
such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the
counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation.
21.I will design all doomsday machines myself. If I must hire a mad
scientist to assist me, I will make sure that he is sufficiently twisted to
never regret his evil ways and seek to undo the damage he's caused.
23.When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally listen to their
advice.
29.I will keep a special cache of low-tech weapons and train my troops in
their use. That way -- even if the heroes manage to neutralize my power
generator and/or render the standard-issue energy weapons useless -- my
troops will not be overrun by a handful of savages armed with spears and
rocks.
35.If my supreme command center comes under attack, I will immediately flee
to safety in my prepared escape pod and direct the defenses from there. I
will not wait until the troops break into my inner sanctum to attempt this.
38.I will dress in bright and cheery colors, and so throw my enemies into
confusion.
45.I will not employ devious schemes that involve the hero's party getting
into my inner sanctum before the trap is sprung.
48.I will not imprison members of the same party in the same cell block, let
alone the same cell. If they are important prisoners, I will keep the only
key to the cell door on my person instead of handing out copies to every
bottom-rung guard in the prison.
52.I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable
superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of
keeping it in reserve.
55.When I capture the hero, I will make sure I also get his dog, monkey,
ferret, or whatever sickeningly cute little animal capable of untying ropes
and filching keys happens to follow him around. Not that the key will be
anywhere near the hero.
67.I will hire a team of board-certified architects and surveyors to examine
my castle and inform me of any secret passages and abandoned tunnels that I
might not know about.
GC
Lord Gow, minion of the Apocalypse
The next movie begins with Picard's line - "Oh shit! The bomb!"
LG
--
your holiday elf.
...and then Steiner just stared Triple H in the eye, and smiled.
KC 2.0 --faster than before
On 23 Dec 2002, Scott Dubin wrote:
Hello Scott. I ask you not to crosspost to ASPW, we have nothing in common
with wrestling fans.
> Since I haven't seen anyone else pointing out the plot holes in this
> dumb, dumb, film, I guess I'll do it myself. It's not like I've
> memorised the movie or anything so I'll probably miss stuff, but.
>
> 1) The Enterprise is sent to Romulan space because its the "nearest
> ship," even though theres no immediate crisis. They would logically
> send the best diplomats, not any other Starship nearby. That's not
From MY review:
This just occurred to me -- is the Enterprise E the ONLY damned ship in
the entire Federation?? Every movie we've seen has the Big E saving
humanity/a race/the whole planet. It's old hat.
> the plot hole, however. The villian somehow magically knows Picard is
> coming, even though choosing the Enterprise for the mission was a
> completly random decision by Janeway or whoever?
>
> 2) Aside from the logic of randomly detecting Data's brother from
> whatever random planet it was on, how the heck did the villain know
> they'd find Data's brother? Space is a pretty big place. You'd have
> to know what ship was being assigned, their starting location, the
> path they'd take, and you'd have to set it up way in advance.
These two points together--
In two words: good military intelligence. You find out everything about
the enemy, especially what they like or hate. Then you can find a way to
bait them into a trap. As far as the Enterprise, I'd say the
Remans/Romulans have a spy in Starfleet passing them info.
My take--
Storyline:
Why is nobody in the Fed questioning how and why the Romulans got ahold
of Picard's DNA? Where did Before... er, *B-4* come from? The Enterprise
crew has had interaction with Romulans before... Unification (deliberate)
and Timescape (accident). Not even a hint there?
> 3) The Romulan homeworld has no ships? Did they have a small
> animation budget or something? Worf says, "Let's raise sheilds" after
> sitting there for eighteen hours waiting for the Romulan ship to
> arrive?
see number 1
>
> 4) The bad guys kidnap Picard, cloak their ship, and just lets the
> Enterpise stay there in the center of the Romulan empire. The crew
> just kinda hangs around twiddling their thumbs. Oh, I forgot, the
> Romulans only have 3 ships.
Well the Scimitar lost their chance to shoot down the Enterprise :-/
>
> 5) The Romulan military randomly decides they'd like to be ruled by
> their former slaves, the Remans? I mean, a military coup makes sense,
> but put the Remans in charge. I mean, the military woman killed the
> senate... the Remans had nothing to do with it!
Eh, I don't understand?
The Remans pulled a coup and showed their former masters who was boss. The
Romulans had little choice at the time but to comply.
>
> 6) The romulans and Remans come togethor to put a crazy human guy in
> charge of the Empire? "You know what we need, some crazy human guy to
> lead our empire. Any can he be the evil twin clone of some federation
> hero, so they can have a big climactic confrontation? Maybe he can be
> really spooky and hang out in a dark, death star type throne room?"
You're not paying attention. The Romulans got ahold of Picard's DNA awhile
back, intent on cloning him and replacing Picard with PicardClone. But for
some reason, they abandoned Shinzon when he was 6 and the Reman viceroy
took him under his wing. Shinzon wanting to destroy Earth, that was all
the Remans. The Romulans think no Earth means disaster for themselves.
> Naturally, the entire universe revolves around Picard. From the borg
> to the Romulans, everyone needs an evil Picard.
We already saw an evil Picard doppleganger. In "Dark Mirror" the book.
>
> 7) The military decides to turn on the Picard clone guy, and they do
> with 2 little little ships, that look like klingon ships, so I thought
> at first they were imitating the next generation episode where the
> Klingon ships decloaked in Romulan space and save the Enterprise at a
> convenient plot moment.
Yes, TIIC should have provided more Romulan ships. Also see No. 1
>
> 8) So the slow countdown sequence to the firing of the Superweapon
> had begun (James Bond style.) And instead of doing the obvious thing
> and sending over a taskforce, Picard decides to go alone? Because he
> has such a great chance of singlehandidly defeating all the Remans on
> the enemy ship?
I don't know why that was decided. Maybe he thought one man has a better
chance than an Away Team.
>
> Hmm, that was a lot. Who can possibly take Star Trek seriously
> anymore? The writers certainly don't.
Thanks for sharing with us your somewhat disjointed thoughts. I'm not
trying to rationalize the bad writing and production of Nemesis here.
--
KC
"Praetor Shinzon wears a stiff rubber trenchcoat that squeaks as he moves.
The Remans look like giant mutant Cardassian lizards. There I've said it."
Timo S Saloniemi
>Since I haven't seen anyone else pointing out the plot holes in this
>dumb, dumb, film, I guess I'll do it myself. It's not like I've
>memorised the movie or anything so I'll probably miss stuff, but.
>
>1) The Enterprise is sent to Romulan space because its the "nearest
>ship," even though theres no immediate crisis. They would logically
>send the best diplomats, not any other Starship nearby. That's not
>the plot hole, however. The villian somehow magically knows Picard is
>coming, even though choosing the Enterprise for the mission was a
>completly random decision by Janeway or whoever?
So Janeway is a Romulan mole? Or the transmission was faked?
Both could have made for moderately interesting side plots and
would have served as semi-logical ways for luring Picard to Romulus.
Much preferable to the use of B4...
>2) Aside from the logic of randomly detecting Data's brother from
>whatever random planet it was on, how the heck did the villian know
>they'd find Data's brother? Space is a pretty big place. You'd have
>to know what ship was being assigned, their starting location, the
>path they'd take, and you'd have to set it up way in advance.
So again, we need a Starfleet mole. Umm, although it need not have
been too much of a secret that the Enterprise would be sailing from
Earth to Betazed at the safely pre-announced date of the Riker-Troi
wedding.
But it would be a silly coincidence that the wedding and Shinzon's
rebellion would coincide. Or would Shinzon really build his entire
rebellion timetable on this event? (Actually, he might! There apparently
were no other time-critical issues, save for his deteriorating health.)
>3) The Romulan homeworld has no ships? Did they have a small
>animation budget or something? Worf says, "Let's raise sheilds" after
>sitting there for eighteen hours waiting for the Romulan ship to
>arrive?
In this case, I feel the writers had plenty of good excuses, even if
they themselves weren't aware of them. For one, why would the ships
announce their presence? The welcoming party in DS9 "Inter Arma.."
remained cloaked until the last minute. For another, there was
a coup d'etat in progress, with the majority of the fleet at least
waiting and seeing if not actively assisting. Shinzon could simply
have told the fleet to stand back, to give the rebellion more breathing
room.
>4) The bad guys kidnap Picard, cloak their ship, and just lets the
>Enterpise stay there in the center of the Romulan empire. The crew
>just kinda hangs around twiddling their thumbs. Oh, I forgot, the
>Romulans only have 3 ships.
The Remans. Who knows, perhaps they really didn't have more firepower
than that at their disposal at the time? Perhaps the rest of the
fleet was not considered reliable until after Shinzon could move
to the next phase of his plan and reveal it to the fleet? Still
sounds silly that he didn't destroy the Enterprise outright - it
would have been a nice show of force to applease the crowds, and
wouldn't have hurt his plan to devastate Earth a bit.
>5) The Romulan military randomly decides they'd like to be ruled by
>their former slaves, the Remans? I mean, a military coup makes sense,
>but put the Remans in charge. I mean, the military woman killed the
>senate... the Remans had nothing to do with it!
Then again, the Remans supposedly were a major element in the military.
Or was that line cut, too? Riker characterized them as cannon fodder,
but the sympathies of the military could well be on the side of the
cannon fodder rather than the fat cats of the Senate.
More probably, the military just wanted Shinzon to depose the current
rulers, and then be deposed himself. Sounds like standard Romulan
backstabbing.
>6) The romulans and Remans come togethor to put a crazy human guy in
>charge of the Empire? "You know what we need, some crazy human guy to
>lead our empire. Any can he be the evil twin clone of some federation
>hero, so they can have a big climactic confrontation? Maybe he can be
>really spooky and hang out in a dark, death star type throne room?"
>Naturally, the entire universe revolves around Picard. From the borg
>to the Romulans, everyone needs an evil Picard.
An element I usually hate in any movie, regardless of genre. There should
be a pretty darn good reason for a main character to be a main character.
Why is Picard the focus of everything? Sisko and Janeway at least had
decent excuses, what with being demigods or the only captains around. Kirk
and Archer also have a little bit of that "only one around" charm, but
Picard is just part of a big interacting Starfleet full of officers
senior to him.
>7) The military decides to turn on the Picard clone guy, and they do
>with 2 little little ships, that look like klingon ships, so I thought
>at first they were imitating the next generation episode where the
>Klingon ships decloaked in Romulan space and save the Enterprise at a
>convinient plot moment.
Those ships were still larger than what we've seen before in Romulan
hands. And when you turn on the guy you were building your own plans
of power on, you'd better be sure you can trust your wingman completely.
It wouldn't have helped much for Donatra to charge to the rescue with
fifteen ships, only to have ten of them turn on her when she turned on
Shinzon.
>8) So the slow countdown sequence to the firing of the Superweapon
>had begun (James Bond style.) And instead of doing the obvious thing
>and sending over a taskforce, Picard decides to go alone? Because he
>has such a great chance of singlehandidly defeating all the Remans on
>the enemy ship?
One of the silliest endings to a Trek movie, definitely. At least in
"Insurrection", Picard didn't have a shipful of redshirts to
take with him.
>9) So, the bad guys have to wait till the Enterpise reaches some
>"rift' to attack, because their communications would be down? What
>good is that? The Enterprise already knew they were going to be
>attacked, because the evil clone wanted to kill Picard and the
>Enterprise would have had plenty of time to warn them about the
>Superweapon along the way before the rift.
OTOH, this explains why none of the E-E crew save for Picard was
concerned about going into the rift. It held no real tactical risk
to them. But if Picard felt there was a risk there, then it would
naturally follow that Shinzon felt there was an advantage there.
The concept behind this confrontation seemed to be that as long
as the two Picards had the same genes, they would also think
alike.
>Hmm, that was a lot. Who can possibly take Star Trek seriously
>anymore? The writers certainly don't.
Perhaps they are taking it a bit too seriously?
In any case, the theatrical release of "Nemesis" now sounds
like the worst Trek movie ever. An extended version might have
fewer plot holes and less emphasis on the inane fighting and
generic action.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>"Keeper of the Purple Twilight" <n...@spam.invalid> wrote in message
>news:231220021044490684%n...@spam.invalid...
>> Shinzon planted those pieces of B-4 on that planet, so logically Picard
>> would come (since Data would want to find pieces of his 'brother).
>> Shinzon was using B-4 as bait.
>But how did Shinzon know they would find B4? His entire scheme rests on
>that.
He could have spread fake androids on a great number of planets on the
planned route of the ship. Or he could have had detailed info on
the exact flight plan. With him holding the highest power in the
Romulan Star Empire, those would be trivial feats for him.
The problem comes from timing. Shinzon didn't gain that power until
just prior to the main events of the movie. Or at least Janeway acts
as if the news of the coup d'etat were very recent to her. Would it
have been possible for Shinzon to manufacture fake androids or scoop
up details of Picard's movements in that time?
It is possible that the interval between the events was much greater,
of course. Perhaps Shinzon had been in power for several months before
Janeway heard of it? Romulans are known to be secretive, after all.
Alternately, Shinzon's backers on Romulus could have acted on his behalf
well in advance of the coup.
Neither of these alternatives would need to be explicitly spelled out
in order to make sense - if only the actual plan used made some sense
in the first place! Now when both the plan *and* the timing issue
are left unexplained, nothing makes sense any more...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>>Shinzon planted those pieces of B-4 on that planet, so logically Picard
>>would come (since Data would want to find pieces of his 'brother).
>>Shinzon was using B-4 as bait.
>Where the hell did Shinzon find B-4 (let alone learn of his existance) in the
>first place?? Some have suggested that the Romulans or Remans created him,
>perhaps scanning him when he was on Romulus, but that's just ludicrous. The
>Federation's had his specs for years, and they hadn't been able to duplicate
>Data.
Umm, Data himself duplicated Data, in "The Offspring". The result wasn't
all that different from B-4.
And Dr Bashir installed positronic brain prosthetics on Bareil in
"Life Support" as if this wasn't that big a deal.
Clearly, the UFP's inability to build positronic devices is a thing
of the past now. And even originally, it was probably mostly because
the certifiably loonie Soong was doing it that the Federation decided
it was not doable!
The real reason for not duplicating Data is probably found in "Measure
of a Man" - the Feds don't really want an army of androids around, especially
when they'd be more trouble than worth, every one of them demanding
citizenship rights and generally being a huge pain in the ass.
>Of course, how Shinzon rose up from being a slave to gaining such political
>influence and building this nearly invulnerable ship with its "perfect cloak"
>is a mystery too.
Why does everybody think Shinzon built (or, worse still, designed) the
Scimitar?
He took over the Romulan Star Empire from others. Taking over the Scimitar
from others would be a natural thing for him to do, too, now wouldn't it?
The Remans probably built that ship, of course. Much like prisoners
and slaves built Hitler's V-2 rockets. Doesn't mean that the Remans
were more advanced or more powerful than those who had ordered the
ship to be built.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>Just came home from the theater....(yawn!!)
>
>Okay, just a few of my Nemesis nits:
>2. When did 24th Century Earth revert back to the combustion engine?
The buggy had a combustion engine? Aargh..
>Since Data could control the ship with his palm pilot,why not just have
>the thing beam everyone (including "Speed Buggy") into the shuttle's bay?
Supposedly, transporters didn't work on that planet (hence the use of
a shuttle in the first place).
>3. When they found "Stupid Data" I couldn't believe no one even mentioned
>Lore's name (Data seemed to be thinking about it).
As with so many things in this movie, this one had a clarifying line
written and shot, and then left on the cutting room floor. Hopefully,
a future release will restore the bulk of the cut scenes.
>4. Someone asked how did Shinzon know the Enterprise would find Stupid? I
>want to know how Picard knew Shinzon's plan for Stupid? And how did they
>get Stupid off the Remus ship after they (Picard and Data) escaped?
Stupid never was on the Reman ship. Data went there posing as Stupid,
after figuring out that it was part of Shinzon's plan that Stupid would
go to the Reman ship.
>6. The question about Worf's ambassadorship.
Again, a line was written and shot about Worf no longer being an
ambassador. But the line contained no explanation whatsoever. If
the line isn't restored in a future release, we can simply say that
Worf remains an ambassador. True, it's not customary for today's
ambassadors to be active military officers - but there's nothing to
prevent Trek ambassadors from being active military officers.
>9. Assuming there is no 10-Forward on Enterprise E, everyone in the bow of
>the ship died when they crashed into the Shinzon ship.
There was a line about evacuating parts of the ship. And this line was
not cut.
>11. The one good thing Rick Berman did: not giving Wesley Crusher any
>lines!
The said lines wouldn't have made the cameo any better or worse, IMHO.
Timo Saloniemi
David B.
>
> In article <au8nr0$9ak$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> "George M. Chavis" <gch...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >Just came home from the theater....(yawn!!)
> >
> >Okay, just a few of my Nemesis nits:
>
> >2. When did 24th Century Earth revert back to the combustion engine?
>
> The buggy had a combustion engine? Aargh..
You can relax. It didn't have a combustion engine. Well, it did but that
was the real life jeep. THe one in the film had some other type of
engine.
Timo S Saloniemi
>> 1) The Enterprise could have been *out* of quantum torpedoes
>Which brings up a good question:
>
>How many quantum torpedoes does one normally take to a wedding?
How many *starships* does one take to a wedding, for that matter?
Had this been any other couple on its way to be married, the means
of conveyance from Earth to Betazed would no doubt have been some
sort of a passenger ship. Even as matters stand, it's unlikely that
the Enterprise's *mission* was one of acting as a Love Boat. More
probably, Picard was able to convince his superiors that the ship
could make the trip as part of her other, more "serious" obligations.
And the number of quantum torps aboard thus wouldn't have depended
one bit on the wedding, but would have been determined by those
"serious" obligations. Of course, if the next mission involved
supporting the archeological dig on Welprotectah II next to
Star Fortress Omega in the High Security Exclusion Zone at the
UFP Deep Interior Cultural Preserve...
Timo Saloniemi
David Johnston
>
> On 23 Dec 2002, Scott Dubin wrote:
>
> Hello Scott. I ask you not to crosspost to ASPW, we have nothing in common
> with wrestling fans.
>
> > Since I haven't seen anyone else pointing out the plot holes in this
> > dumb, dumb, film, I guess I'll do it myself. It's not like I've
> > memorised the movie or anything so I'll probably miss stuff, but.
> >
> > 1) The Enterprise is sent to Romulan space because its the "nearest
> > ship," even though theres no immediate crisis. They would logically
> > send the best diplomats, not any other Starship nearby. That's not
>
> From MY review:
> This just occurred to me -- is the Enterprise E the ONLY damned ship in
> the entire Federation?? Every movie we've seen has the Big E saving
> humanity/a race/the whole planet. It's old hat.
Saving a "whole planet" in the universe of Star Trek isn't all that big a
deal. The Federation alone has thousands of them. And given that Starfleet
has only a couple of dozen ships of the Enterprise's power it comes as no
surprise that they are spread thin.
Even so, the Enterprise didn't save Earth from the Borg Cube singlehandedly.
Half of Star Fleet was there and without the other ships, the Enterprise could
not have struck the lethal blow.
So what is it that you want? A move in which the Enterprise does nothing
particularly important?
> > 8) So the slow countdown sequence to the firing of the Superweapon
> > had begun (James Bond style.) And instead of doing the obvious thing
> > and sending over a taskforce, Picard decides to go alone? Because he
> > has such a great chance of singlehandidly defeating all the Remans on
> > the enemy ship?
>
> I don't know why that was decided. Maybe he thought one man has a better
> chance than an Away Team.
>
Picard has generally been devoid of tactical competence. As a soldier
he makes an adequate diplomat.
Mortimer Snerd
"Timo S Saloniemi" <tsal...@cc.hut.fi> wrote in message
news:auh5gr$o6a$1...@nntp.hut.fi...
> Perhaps they are taking it a bit too seriously?
>
> In any case, the theatrical release of "Nemesis" now sounds
> like the worst Trek movie ever. An extended version might have
> fewer plot holes and less emphasis on the inane fighting and
> generic action.
>
> Timo Saloniemi
I think fans who take Star Trek way too seriously are turning away from it,
because (for them) it now needs to be more than what it has always been. It
might be interesting to pick apart the beloved "The Wrath of Khan," and see
if it is then deduced that that film, too, was awful.
KC 2.0 --faster than before
call from Crewman George M. Chavis about the day of 12/23/02
concerning the antimatter injectors that went as follows:
> Just came home from the theater....(yawn!!)
>
> Okay, just a few of my Nemesis nits:
>
> 3. When they found "Stupid Data" I couldn't believe no one even mentioned
> Lore's name (Data seemed to be thinking about it). But then they
> brought Stupid onboard without any security; Picard ordered it
> reassembled; Geordi does a complete data dump of Data's (Enterprise's)
> memory banks ("Hey, Geordi--what's this thing on the back of Stupid's
> neck?" "Oh, just a secret dataport with encrypted code to steal all of
> our precious bodily fluids--nothing to worry about."); they leave
> Stupid alone so it can rape the computer logs.
Security on Starfleet ships has always been less than good. The Enterprise
had little reason to suspect that B-4 was a programmed spy since they did
not know about the Remans or Shinzon yet. I don't know why.
> 4. Someone asked how did Shinzon know the Enterprise would find Stupid? I
> want to know how Picard knew Shinzon's plan for Stupid? And how did they
> get Stupid off the Remus ship after they (Picard and Data) escaped?
Oh here we go again... B-4 has a positronic signal that's unique to Dr.
Soong's androids only. By turning it on, you lure the mouse to the cheese.
>
> 5. Believe it or not, NCC 1701 was the sturdiest Enterprise ever. Every
> since TNG, every Enterprise vessel seems to be made of cardboard. One
> friggin phaser hit and shields are reduced by 50%, but once they get to 10%
> strength, they seem to be able to hold up for the bulk of the attack! And
I was annoyed by all the violent shaking, and in spite of all the weapons
damage they took from a bad-ass warship they manage not to blow up.
>
> Worf was promoted to LtCmdr in ST: Generations and after Enterprise D
> was destroyed (thanks, Riker!)
I liked the Enterprise D. Don't care what anyone else says.
> While all of this was going on, Voyager was putzing around
> the Gamma quadrant with the 4Bs (Big Boobed Borg Babe), that's
> why Janeway is an Admiral and Picard is not.
No, she an Admiral cause she accepted the position. Picard followed Kirk's
advice and didn't want it. He wouldn't be very happy in a deskjob, trust
me.
> 7. That "Let-me-beam-over-by-myself-and-kick-their-asses-with-my-shotgun"
> bit by Picard was not as hilarious as Data's "leap of faith." And he just
> happened to find a backdoor onto their ship (and he knew how to open it!)
Yup Data saves the day once again
>
> 8. How is it the Star Trek universe needs a universal translator, but no
> matter what race of beings they encouter, everyone (including the lowliest
> crewman) seems to be able to "read" the instrument panels of any alien ship,
> control panel, junction box, whatever! (In the Reman fighter: Picard:
> "What do you think that is, Data?" Data: "The port thrusters, sir.
> Or....maybe the self-destruct trigger. Or....maybe the 'ATR'"
> (automatic tampon remover!))
I always thought the function of the Heisenburg Compensators were to spit
out continuity holes like these. :)
>
> 9. Assuming there is no 10-Forward on Enterprise E, everyone in the bow of
> the ship died when they crashed into the Shinzon ship.
But not having any shields, they should have ran smack into the Scimitar's
shields! Why didn't they??
>
> 10. That seven-minute countdown for the Doomsday Weapon, and the slow,
> deliberate preparation sequence was, in a word: precious!
The Doomsday Weapon using whatever-kind-of-freaky-Treknobabble-radiation
was a Weapon of Mass Destruction, I believe. It takes time to warm that
thing up, and then to aim and fire.
--
One of Borg
KC 2.0 --faster than before
On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, David Johnston wrote:
> KC wrote:
> >
> > This just occurred to me -- is the Enterprise E the ONLY damned ship in
> > the entire Federation?? Every movie we've seen has the Big E saving
> > humanity/a race/the whole planet. It's old hat.
>
> Saving a "whole planet" in the universe of Star Trek isn't all that
> big a deal. The Federation alone has thousands of them. And given
> that Starfleet has only a couple of dozen ships of the Enterprise's
> power it comes as no surprise that they are spread thin.
IRL, "saving the day, saving the planet, saving the entire frelling
Federation" situations are few and far-between. Para-monster can be better
than that.
>
> Even so, the Enterprise didn't save Earth from the Borg Cube
> singlehandedly. Half of Star Fleet was there and without the other
> ships, the Enterprise could not have struck the lethal blow.
Ummmm
IIRC all the other 30-something defense fleet did, was become assimilation
munchies for the Borg. Shelby snuck onto the Cube, rescued Locutus, and
Data used his transceiver link to hack into the subcommand structure. The
Cube self-destructed (prob on the Borg Queen's command) and end of story.
>
> So what is it that you want? A move in which the Enterprise does nothing
> particularly important?
Me personally?
I want the scenarios and plot to be less about CGI explosions and more
about hard science and "what would a real person do given this situation."
I am tired of the Enterprise saving the day over and over, this
disrespects Trek and the Next Generation legacy.
>
> > > 8) So the slow countdown sequence to the firing of the Superweapon
> > > had begun (James Bond style.) And instead of doing the obvious thing
> > > and sending over a taskforce, Picard decides to go alone? Because he
> > > has such a great chance of singlehandidly defeating all the Remans on
> > > the enemy ship?
> >
> > I don't know why that was decided. Maybe he thought one man has a better
> > chance than an Away Team.
> >
>
> Picard has generally been devoid of tactical competence.
True. That's why he needed Worf with his paranoid State Of High Alert. :-)
>As a soldier he makes an adequate diplomat.
Say what? Picard is the "perfect" diplomat but a bad soldier. Jellico is
the exact opposite.
--
Ferengi Rule of Acquisition number 190: "Hear all - trust nothing"
EvilBill[AGQx]
in message >
> On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, David Johnston wrote:
> >
> > Even so, the Enterprise didn't save Earth from the Borg Cube
> > singlehandedly. Half of Star Fleet was there and without the other
> > ships, the Enterprise could not have struck the lethal blow.
>
> Ummmm
> IIRC all the other 30-something defense fleet did, was become
assimilation
> munchies for the Borg. Shelby snuck onto the Cube, rescued Locutus,
and
> Data used his transceiver link to hack into the subcommand
structure. The
> Cube self-destructed (prob on the Borg Queen's command) and end of
story.
>
I think he's talking about First Contact (in which the fleet DID
manage to whip the crap out of a Cube), not BOBW.
> >
> > So what is it that you want? A move in which the Enterprise does
nothing
> > particularly important?
>
> Me personally?
>
> I want the scenarios and plot to be less about CGI explosions and
more
> about hard science and "what would a real person do given this
situation."
> I am tired of the Enterprise saving the day over and over, this
> disrespects Trek and the Next Generation legacy.
>
Yes, let's see something where the *characters* themselves get a ook
in from time to time rather than just being jerked about by the plot.
--
--
* Confucious he say, man who buy Windows get what he deserve!
E-mail: devlinwright @ tiscali .co .uk (remove spaces to e-mail)
AIM: EvilBill1782
MSN: dev...@agqx-imperium.fsnet.co.uk
DIABLO II
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David Johnston
> > Saving a "whole planet" in the universe of Star Trek isn't all that
> > big a deal. The Federation alone has thousands of them. And given
> > that Starfleet has only a couple of dozen ships of the Enterprise's
> > power it comes as no surprise that they are spread thin.
>
> IRL, "saving the day, saving the planet, saving the entire frelling
> Federation" situations are few and far-between.
When we need real life, we can always just turn to real life.
Para-monster can be better
> than that.
>
> >
> > Even so, the Enterprise didn't save Earth from the Borg Cube
> > singlehandedly. Half of Star Fleet was there and without the other
> > ships, the Enterprise could not have struck the lethal blow.
>
> Ummmm
> IIRC all the other 30-something defense fleet did, was become assimilation
> munchies for the Borg.
We were talking about the movies.
Shelby snuck onto the Cube, rescued Locutus, and
> Data used his transceiver link to hack into the subcommand structure. The
> Cube self-destructed (prob on the Borg Queen's command) and end of story.
>
> >
> > So what is it that you want? A move in which the Enterprise does nothing
> > particularly important?
>
> Me personally?
>
> I want the scenarios and plot to be less about CGI explosions and more
> about hard science
Hard science? That would be abandoning Star Trek tradition in it's
entirety.
and "what would a real person do given this situation."
> I am tired of the Enterprise saving the day over and over, this
> disrespects Trek and the Next Generation legacy.
>
> >
> > > > 8) So the slow countdown sequence to the firing of the Superweapon
> > > > had begun (James Bond style.) And instead of doing the obvious thing
> > > > and sending over a taskforce, Picard decides to go alone? Because he
> > > > has such a great chance of singlehandidly defeating all the Remans on
> > > > the enemy ship?
> > >
> > > I don't know why that was decided. Maybe he thought one man has a better
> > > chance than an Away Team.
> > >
> >
> > Picard has generally been devoid of tactical competence.
> True. That's why he needed Worf with his paranoid State Of High Alert. :-)
To ignore.
>
> >As a soldier he makes an adequate diplomat.
>
> Say what? Picard is the "perfect" diplomat but a bad soldier.
That's what that turn of phrase means, although in truth I don't
think Picard's that great a diplomat either. But he's a worse soldier
David B.
>
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.33.0212261904590.20654-100000@uhunix2>, KC 2.0
> --faster than before <gar...@Tchernobogreincarnate.com> wrote:
>
> > > 9. Assuming there is no 10-Forward on Enterprise E, everyone in the bow of
> > > the ship died when they crashed into the Shinzon ship.
> >
> > But not having any shields, they should have ran smack into the Scimitar's
> > shields! Why didn't they??
>
I saw it again last night and you're right. The shields were down.
marty mcmahone
>
> 4. Someone asked how did Shinzon know the Enterprise would find Stupid?
I
> want to know how Picard knew Shinzon's plan for Stupid? And how did they
> get Stupid off the Remus ship after they (Picard and Data) escaped?
If you're going to pick movies, you probably should watch more carefully.
Stupid never was on the Remus ship -- Data was.
KC 2.0 --faster than before
concerning the antimatter injectors that went as follows:
> > > Saving a "whole planet" in the universe of Star Trek isn't all that
> > > big a deal. The Federation alone has thousands of them. And given
> > > that Starfleet has only a couple of dozen ships of the Enterprise's
> > > power it comes as no surprise that they are spread thin.
> >
> > IRL, "saving the day, saving the planet, saving the entire frelling
> > Federation" situations are few and far-between.
>
> When we need real life, we can always just turn to real life.
I like my Trek to be reality as we all would like it to be in 400 years.
> > > So what is it that you want? A move in which the Enterprise does nothing
> > > particularly important?
> >
> > Me personally?
> >
> > I want the scenarios and plot to be less about CGI explosions and more
> > about hard science
>
> Hard science? That would be abandoning Star Trek tradition in it's
> entirety.
Why?
Those clipboards the yeomen were handing Kirk to sign are now PDAs. The
flip communicators are cell phones. Some scientists have basically
transported a molecule from one side of a room to another side. Trek was
*not* complete fiction. It is only recently B&B have drifted away from
this.
> > >
> > > Picard has generally been devoid of tactical competence.
> >
> > True. That's why he needed Worf with his paranoid State Of High Alert. :-)
>
> To ignore.
Not always.
>
> >
> > >As a soldier he makes an adequate diplomat.
> >
> > Say what? Picard is the "perfect" diplomat but a bad soldier.
>
> That's what that turn of phrase means, although in truth I don't
> think Picard's that great a diplomat either.
Any guy who can get a hostile pointing his guns at you, to drop them,
scores points in my book.
Eileen
"George M. Chavis" wrote:
> Just came home from the theater....(yawn!!)
>
> Okay, just a few of my Nemesis nits:
>
> 1. First, the cinematography sucked. Maybe it was the crappy theater I was
> in (and it was crappy), but the desert sequence was really visually
> terrible.
>
No, it wasn't just the theater you were in. Everything in the desert sequence
looked washed out, bizarrely so. I felt like I was watching an unrestored early
sixties color film, all faded.
A Bag Of Memes
"Eileen" <ebb...@NOSPAMomegacs.net> wrote in message
news:3E0FCF36...@NOSPAMomegacs.net...
I assumed they were trying to convey the alien sun/atmosphere combination.
It seemed like a decent approximation to me. That was one of the few bits I
liked.
Eileen
"WickeddollŽ" wrote:
>
> >
> > 11. The one good thing Rick Berman did: not giving Wesley Crusher any
> > lines!
> >
> >
> > G. Chavis
> >
> >
> And leave us not forget, not putting nekked Betazoid wedding Riker on the
> screen!
>
> Natalie
But I wanted to see naked Betazoid wedding Whorf!
Eileen
"KC 2.0 --faster than before" wrote:
>
> "Praetor Shinzon wears a stiff rubber trenchcoat that squeaks as he moves.
> The Remans look like giant mutant Cardassian lizards. There I've said it."
LOL!
George M. Chavis
"marty mcmahone" <mmcma...@hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0%QP9.4916$an1.3...@twister.austin.rr.com...
>
> > 4. Someone asked how did Shinzon know the Enterprise would find Stupid?
> > I want to know how Picard knew Shinzon's plan for Stupid? And how did
they
> > get Stupid off the Remus ship after they (Picard and Data) escaped?
>
> If you're going to pick movies, you probably should watch more carefully.
> Stupid never was on the Remus ship -- Data was.
You missed my point. I know it was Data who was on the Remus ship. I was
asking how did Picard see through Shinzon's plan to know to switch B4 with
Data? We saw Picard pick up B4's parts, beam them back to Enterprise, have
him reassembled and uploaded with Data's memory banks. Then we see B4
accessing the Enterprise's databanks and Geordi not know who, how or why the
data was scanned. The plot tells us that Shinzon is extending an olive
branch to the Federation so Picard doesn't have Enterprise on Red Alert.
Then when Picard is kidnapped, Shinzon's true colors are revealed. But B4
is already on the Remus ship before Picard. But A-ha! It's now really B4,
it's Data! My question is: How did Picard know to dress Data up as B4?
There was no obvious link (to Picard) between B4 and Remus. We know that B4
was a ploy to bring the Enterprise within close range of the Neutral Zone,
which was the vehicle Janeway used to dispatch Enterprise to Romulus
(ostensibly because they were closer than any other Federation ship). Up to
Picard's kidnapping, no one on Enterprise linked B4 with Remus and Shinzon.
GC
Dhue's Husband@foxnews.net Greg Grant
A Bag Of Memes <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:XDQP9.62149$6H6.2...@twister.austin.rr.com...
People, people, you are putting way too much thought into it. Prime
Directive, laws of physics, continuity, Star Trek fans... a lot of things
were violated by this movie. I enjoyed it for it was, an entertaining way
to spend two hours with characters I've watched for seven years. Granted,
half of them didn't do anything and appeared in the movie to prove they were
alive for tax purposes, but still... I had fun. My friends and I liked it.
Afterwards, all the plot holes emerged when we talked about it, but that's
afterwards, for two hours I was entertained and that's about as good as it's
going to get.
David Johnston
>
> call from Crewman David Johnston about the day of 12/29/02
> concerning the antimatter injectors that went as follows:
>
> > > > Saving a "whole planet" in the universe of Star Trek isn't all that
> > > > big a deal. The Federation alone has thousands of them. And given
> > > > that Starfleet has only a couple of dozen ships of the Enterprise's
> > > > power it comes as no surprise that they are spread thin.
> > >
> > > IRL, "saving the day, saving the planet, saving the entire frelling
> > > Federation" situations are few and far-between.
> >
> > When we need real life, we can always just turn to real life.
>
> I like my Trek to be reality as we all would like it to be in 400 years.
>
> > > > So what is it that you want? A move in which the Enterprise does nothing
> > > > particularly important?
> > >
> > > Me personally?
> > >
> > > I want the scenarios and plot to be less about CGI explosions and more
> > > about hard science
> >
> > Hard science? That would be abandoning Star Trek tradition in it's
> > entirety.
>
> Why?
> Those clipboards the yeomen were handing Kirk to sign are now PDAs. The
> flip communicators are cell phones.
And that is pretty much the limit of Star Trek's hard science quotient.
We'll ignore the fact that the clipboards were nothing like a PDA since
those little crystals they used to stick into computers were reasonably
prophetic concerning the nature of data storage.
But Star Trek existed in a universe where they had "ion storms" sweeping
through space, where creatures that were basicly thinly rationalised demons
and gods preyed upon human emotions, where transporters could split
people into two, each with half a soul, where people existed who
could just snap their fingers and transform an asteroid into an Earthlike
environment, and where a simple chemical injection could give anyone
superhuman speed or telekinetic powers that would level a city.
Now, I'm not one of those purists who say that isn't science fiction.
But I don't think my definitions are loose enough that I could describe
it as "hard science" either.
> > > >As a soldier he makes an adequate diplomat.
> > >
> > > Say what? Picard is the "perfect" diplomat but a bad soldier.
> >
> > That's what that turn of phrase means, although in truth I don't
> > think Picard's that great a diplomat either.
>
> Any guy who can get a hostile pointing his guns at you, to drop them,
> scores points in my book.
A really good diplomat would be able to smooth things over before
his shields have been knocked down by enemy attack. Besides I can't
help but remember the time it took him the entire episode to figure
out that when dealing with a species of space lawyers, you'd better
look at the terms of your contract/treaty carefully to see exactly
what it says. An idiot plot if ever I saw one.
hmph!
Did the characters at any point have a(n) "we cant do anything because it
goes against
whateverthehellisthereasontheycan'tjustblowuptheenemyshipbecauseitgoesagains
tourhippiebeliefsreasonwhichiswhyIthinkStarTrekiscrap" moment?
Timo S Saloniemi
>KC 2.0 --faster than before wrote:
>> From MY review:
>> This just occurred to me -- is the Enterprise E the ONLY damned ship in
>> the entire Federation?? Every movie we've seen has the Big E saving
>> humanity/a race/the whole planet. It's old hat.
>So what is it that you want? A move in which the Enterprise does nothing
>particularly important?
Well, ST2:TWoK was built pretty much around that idea. The crew was just
busy saving their own bacon from a madman who wouldn't even have existed
if not for the crew's own actions. There were few issues of galactic
importance there - even the Genesis device was just a single bomb Khan
could not plausibly have reverse-engineered into a weapon of domination,
and his crazed state virtually ensured that he couldn't use it even for
one single decent act of planetary blackmail. Spock and McCoy feared for
naught.
That was *personal*. Which often makes for a good story.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo S Saloniemi
>
>"Timo S Saloniemi" <tsal...@cc.hut.fi> wrote in message
>news:auh5gr$o6a$1...@nntp.hut.fi...
>> Perhaps they are taking it a bit too seriously?
>>
>> In any case, the theatrical release of "Nemesis" now sounds
>> like the worst Trek movie ever. An extended version might have
>> fewer plot holes and less emphasis on the inane fighting and
>> generic action.
>I think fans who take Star Trek way too seriously are turning away from it,
>because (for them) it now needs to be more than what it has always been. It
>might be interesting to pick apart the beloved "The Wrath of Khan," and see
>if it is then deduced that that film, too, was awful.
Well, it certainly had more plot holes than my true favorites, "The Voyage
Home" and "The Motion Picture".
The saving grace in that movie (apart from the fact that it formed half
the Trek movie database back then!) was an element of extreme rarity in Trek
movies, character development. TMP had some of that, but TWoK put an
emphasis on it. The subsequent movies need not rise above the level of
TWoK - but they aren't even credibly treading water when they lack the
courage to try out actual character development. In that sense, I
always preferred "Generations" to "First Contact"...
Timo Saloniemi
David B.
>
> "marty mcmahone" <mmcma...@hot.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:0%QP9.4916$an1.3...@twister.austin.rr.com...
> >
> > > 4. Someone asked how did Shinzon know the Enterprise would find Stupid?
> > > I want to know how Picard knew Shinzon's plan for Stupid? And how did
> they
> > > get Stupid off the Remus ship after they (Picard and Data) escaped?
> >
> > If you're going to pick movies, you probably should watch more carefully.
> > Stupid never was on the Remus ship -- Data was.
>
> You missed my point. I know it was Data who was on the Remus ship. I was
> asking how did Picard see through Shinzon's plan to know to switch B4 with
> Data?
You missed the part where Data or Geordi (I can't remember which at the
moment) called Picard and told him they had figured out where the
computer breach came from. The figured out that B4 was responsible for
it.
Blasting Cap
whoever?>>
While not a big fan of hers, I thought her appearance here was wasted. It
lent absolutely nothing to the story to knit it to Voyager, and after x
number of seasons in the other quadrant, seems like she'd be de-briefed for
years.
<<You'd have to know what ship was being assigned, their starting location,
the path they'd take, and you'd have to set it up way in advance.>>
I had originally thought it was Lore, but according to the series, he was
scattered. Of course, this never stopped them before.
<<6) The romulans and Remans come togethor to put a crazy human guy in
charge of the Empire? "You know what we need, some crazy human guy to lead
our empire. Any can he be the evil twin clone of some federation hero, so
they can have a big climactic confrontation? Maybe he can be really spooky
and hang out in a dark, death star type throne room?" Naturally, the entire
universe revolves around Picard. From the borg
to the Romulans, everyone needs an evil Picard.>>
The "why" of this made no sense to me. Seems like that anything I ever
recalled about Romulans was their arrogant attitude toward humans being a
sub-speices.
<<Hmm, that was a lot. Who can possibly take Star Trek seriously anymore?
The writers certainly don't.>>
I am a fan of it, and not necessarily a nitpicker, and went to see it twice,
just to make sure that I wasn't being too critical.
IMO, it is the biggest hunk of sh*t movie that has been out since Star Trek
V or Star Trek III.
I thought that many of the series regulars could've been handled by
redshirts for all they meant to the plot. Outside of a couple small scenes,
Crusher was MIA for most of the movie. The Troi bedroom scene, while being
more than what you could get away with on TV, served no purpose that I was
able to detect. LaForge wasn't used, Worf was seen a couple times, but had
nothing to do throughout the movie. Even Data, who was integral to the plot
of the movie took long stretches of not being used in it. Many of the
absences of those reminded me of the way Generations was done, which wasn't
the best movie either.
IMO, it was way too much Patrick Stewart, not enough of the others, and a
half-baked plot to boot.
I am a fan of it, and even I thought it was another trip to the Star Trek
ATM machine.
BC
Tom O'Brien
>
> > 5. Believe it or not, NCC 1701 was the sturdiest Enterprise ever. Every
> > since TNG, every Enterprise vessel seems to be made of cardboard. One
> > friggin phaser hit and shields are reduced by 50%, but once they get to 10%
> > strength, they seem to be able to hold up for the bulk of the attack! And
> > and ST: Insurrection? The ones that decimated the Borg and the Son'a?
>
> There are all kinds of problems with this because in Star Trek First
> Contact the Enterprise has QUANTUM torpedoes, not PHOTON, but in
> Nemesis they are back to the old ones that the Enterprise D carried.
Strictly speaking, photons are quanta, so the distinction is moot.
TO
Cory C. Albrecht
>Erich Becker wrote:
>> There are all kinds of problems with this because in Star Trek First
>> Contact the Enterprise has QUANTUM torpedoes, not PHOTON, but in
>> Nemesis they are back to the old ones that the Enterprise D carried.
>Strictly speaking, photons are quanta, so the distinction is moot.
Different contexts. Calling photons "quanta" merely indicates that it is
a discrete unit quantity of energy proportional to frequency of
radiation. The "quantum" in "quantum torpedoes", in addition to being
technobable :-) seems to idicate that they creat their effects by
dealing with the more integral forces of nature, like what holds 3
wuarks together to make up a baryon, rather than boring old photons and
electromagnetic radiation.
--
Cory C. Albrecht
Mortimer Snerd
"Blasting Cap" <scha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:auq0n9$99kgn$1...@ID-153537.news.dfncis.de...
> I am a fan of it, and not necessarily a nitpicker, and went to see it
twice,
> just to make sure that I wasn't being too critical.
>
> IMO, it is the biggest hunk of sh*t movie that has been out since Star
Trek
> V or Star Trek III.
You saw it twice, even though the first viewing gave you pause? Maybe you
should see it a third time, just to be extra sure. Invite friends and family
to get their opinions, too.
George M. Chavis
> > Okay, just a few of my Nemesis nits:
> >
> > 1. First, the cinematography sucked. Maybe it was the crappy theater I
was
> > in (and it was crappy), but the desert sequence was really visually
> > terrible.
> >
>
> No, it wasn't just the theater you were in. Everything in the desert
sequence
> looked washed out, bizarrely so. I felt like I was watching an unrestored
early
> sixties color film, all faded.
Ah! I'd hoped it wasn't just me! I figured it was some kind of
photographic device Berman was using. It seemed to me at times that I
needed sunglasses!
GC
George M. Chavis
"Eileen" <ebb...@NOSPAMomegacs.net> wrote in message
>
>
> "WickeddollŽ" wrote:
> > >
> > > 11. The one good thing Rick Berman did: not giving Wesley Crusher
any
> > > lines!
> > >
> > >
the
> > screen!
> >
> > Natalie
>
> But I wanted to see naked Betazoid wedding Whorf!
>
Klingon genitalia??? EEEEEKKKK! :-)
GC
George M. Chavis
"A Bag Of Memes" <a@b.c> wrote:
> > > Okay, just a few of my Nemesis nits:
> > >
> > > 1. First, the cinematography sucked. Maybe it was the crappy theater
I
> was
> > > in (and it was crappy), but the desert sequence was really visually
> > > terrible.
> > >
> >
> > No, it wasn't just the theater you were in. Everything in the desert
> sequence
> > looked washed out, bizarrely so. I felt like I was watching an
unrestored
> early
> > sixties color film, all faded.
>
> I assumed they were trying to convey the alien sun/atmosphere combination.
> It seemed like a decent approximation to me. That was one of the few bits
I
> liked.
Hmmmm.....okay, hadn't considered that as carefully as I should have.
Sounds reasonable since the rest of the film was okay.
GC
j...@utr.com
wrote:
>
>Why does everybody think Shinzon built (or, worse still, designed) the
>Scimitar?
>
>Timo Saloniemi
Shinzon himself states that he "built the Scimitar at a secret base".
Timo S Saloniemi
>On 27 Dec 2002 09:39:06 GMT, tsal...@cc.hut.fi (Timo S Saloniemi)
>wrote:
>>Why does everybody think Shinzon built (or, worse still, designed) the
>>Scimitar?
>Shinzon himself states that he "built the Scimitar at a secret base".
Okay, I guess that explains that, then... :-)
Wouldn't each and every Romulan shipyard be a "secret base", though?
IIRC, Shinzon is explaining himself to the Feds, not to his Romulan
accomplices. He might want to specify that the base was secret and this
is why the Feds don't know of the existence of the vessel.
And as for him building the ship personally, perhaps he was Slave #235
in the detachment that carried reverse-racheting router planers to
the team that bolted together the nacelles?
Timo Saloniemi
WickeddollŽ
"Eileen" <ebb...@NOSPAMomegacs.net> wrote in message
news:3E0FD047...@NOSPAMomegacs.net...
>
>
Natalie
EvilBill[AGQx]
--
--
* If at first you don't succeed... just say 'bugger it' and do
something else!
E-mail: devlinwright @ tiscali .co .uk (remove spaces to e-mail)
AIM: EvilBill1782
MSN: dev...@agqx-imperium.fsnet.co.uk
DIABLO II
Matriarch Kheperkare - Lvl 89 Javazon - Open
Slayer HorribleHobbler - Lvl 35 Barbarian - Open
Matriarch EB-Amarice - Lvl 85 Bowazon - USWest
EB-Tanya - Lvl 23 Assassin - USEast
Brian Thorn
<gch...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> If you're going to pick movies, you probably should watch more carefully.
>> Stupid never was on the Remus ship -- Data was.
>
>You missed my point. I know it was Data who was on the Remus ship. I was
>asking how did Picard see through Shinzon's plan to know to switch B4 with
>Data? We saw Picard pick up B4's parts, beam them back to Enterprise,
You aren't helping your case much here. Picard and B-4 didn't "beam"
back to Enterprise, they flew back in the Argo.
>have
>him reassembled and uploaded with Data's memory banks. Then we see B4
>accessing the Enterprise's databanks and Geordi not know who, how or why the
>data was scanned. The plot tells us that Shinzon is extending an olive
>branch to the Federation so Picard doesn't have Enterprise on Red Alert.
>Then when Picard is kidnapped, Shinzon's true colors are revealed. But B4
>is already on the Remus ship before Picard. But A-ha! It's now really B4,
>it's Data! My question is: How did Picard know to dress Data up as B4?
>There was no obvious link (to Picard) between B4 and Remus. We know that B4
>was a ploy to bring the Enterprise within close range of the Neutral Zone,
>which was the vehicle Janeway used to dispatch Enterprise to Romulus
>(ostensibly because they were closer than any other Federation ship). Up to
>Picard's kidnapping, no one on Enterprise linked B4 with Remus and Shinzon.
You missed the brief line of Data's to Picard, something to the
effect, "we have discovered the source of the unauthorized computer
access, and it may provide us with a tactical advantage."
It was Data (and presumably Geordi) who figured out what B-4 was up
to, not Picard.
You *really* need to pay more attention to a movie if you're going to
criticize it publicly, it just makes you look foolish when you miss
major plot elements like this.
Brian
Mortimer Snerd
news:o23e1v0prihlh3f3b...@4ax.com...
> You *really* need to pay more attention to a movie if you're going to
> criticize it publicly, it just makes you look foolish when you miss
> major plot elements like this.
>
> Brian
THANK YOU, Brian. I noticed early on that many (ie. the ones criticizing
this movie so vocally) seem to have spent much of the movie at the snack bar
or the head.
SSM
it. It wasn't great, but I got just as much enjoyment out of seeing it
in the theater as (dare I say it) the Two Towers.
In article <o23e1v0prihlh3f3b...@4ax.com>,
--
E-mail: ssmulgund0000@yahoo-dot-com (eliminate all zeros)
Brian Thorn
wrote:
>Why has it become so fashionable to bash Nemesis?
Par for the course these days. It wasn't that bad of a movie. I
figured the fans would be annoyed at its blatant "borrowing" (ahem!)
of previous Trek movie plot elements, but I would think that for
casual fans of the genre the movie would come off pretty well.
But there were some mass media reviews that were just scathing, and
that (unfairly, I think) scared off the casual fans. And that's a
shame, when you look at how much "Men In Black II" made (even though
Smith and Jones pretty much phoned in their performances) or how much
"Attack of the Clones" (which has dialogue far worse than anything
uttered in "Nemesis") made, you have to wonder.
>To be honest, I liked
>it. It wasn't great, but I got just as much enjoyment out of seeing it
>in the theater as (dare I say it) the Two Towers.
I liked "Nemesis" too, but it is a few leagues below "Two Towers"
(which is a cinematic masterpiece, in my opinion.)
I would say that I liked "Nemesis" as much as "Die Another Day" or the
latest "Harry Potter" though.
Brian
buck naked
"SSM" <s...@noEmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:ssm-37BDB0.1...@reader1.news.rcn.net...
Michael Drake
sweeping Trekkie-land is to bash the fans who like the movies.
So much for the ideals of friendship peace and co-operation that Star Trek
embodies - It's enough to make you wonder if certain fans have ever actually
seen the series or the films!!
George M. Chavis
> You *really* need to pay more attention to a movie if you're going to
> criticize it publicly, it just makes you look foolish when you miss
> major plot elements like this.
"Mortimer Snerd" <msn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> THANK YOU, Brian. I noticed early on that many (ie. the ones criticizing
> this movie so vocally) seem to have spent much of the movie at the snack
bar
> or the head.
...and neither of you could have made your points without being rude? I was
wrong, and you were right--granted. Now, what have you proven--that I
didn't pay attention to the movie, and you're both condescending dickheads?
Brian Thorn
<gch...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>...and neither of you could have made your points without being rude? I was
>wrong, and you were right--granted. Now, what have you proven--that I
>didn't pay attention to the movie, and you're both condescending dickheads?
Your original post deserved far more flames than you ultimately
received, in my opinion, and if you think my reply to you was rude,
you have very little experience with Usenet.
Get the facts before you go into attack mode, which your review of
"Nemesis" essentially was. And go get yourself a *much* thicker skin.
Brian
Cory C. Albrecht
>Get the facts before you go into attack mode, which your review of
>"Nemesis" essentially was. And go get yourself a *much* thicker skin.
13+ years of experience on usenet has hown me that rhino hide is best
for any serious poster. :-)
--
Cory C. Albrecht
George M. Chavis
> Your original post deserved far more flames than you ultimately
> received, in my opinion, and if you think my reply to you was rude,
> you have very little experience with Usenet.
>
> Get the facts before you go into attack mode, which your review of
> "Nemesis" essentially was. And go get yourself a *much* thicker skin.
The thickness of my skin is not the issue, Sir. I don't have a problem with
flames, it's what makes newsgroups interesting. My original comments were
my opinion, not an attack--I didn't like the movie; you did. I saw what I
thought were errors and called them out; you (and others) flamed my
comments--I'm cool with that. But then YOU chose to attack me, and not my
ideas. I made a mistake--you could have just pointed out my error and left
it at that, leaving out the "fool" bit. Funny thing is I've been reading
your comments for about four years--we even exchanged off-line comments
about O'Brien's rank.
But if that's how things are done in this group--criticize the idea and the
writer--well, I'm cool with that, too. FLAME ON!
(Ed Norton: "Cover up your face, Ralph!")
GC
Brian Thorn
<gch...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> Get the facts before you go into attack mode, which your review of
>> "Nemesis" essentially was. And go get yourself a *much* thicker skin.
>
>The thickness of my skin is not the issue, Sir. I don't have a problem with
>flames, it's what makes newsgroups interesting. My original comments were
>my opinion, not an attack--I didn't like the movie; you did. I saw what I
>thought were errors and called them out; you (and others) flamed my
>comments--I'm cool with that. But then YOU chose to attack me,
I did no such thing. I wrote...
"You *really* need to pay more attention to a movie if you're going to
criticize it publicly, it just makes you look foolish when you miss
major plot elements like this."
I stand by that assessment... you missed a whopper of a plot element
in "Nemesis" (and you alone seem to have missed it, as far as I can
tell from the other reviews here), so much so that it throws the bulk
of your review into serious question.
Call it an 'attack' if that's what helps you sleep at night. I thought
it was good advice: "Pay attention to a movie before you review it."
Brian
fruitbat
> On Sat, 04 Jan 2003 19:58:19 -0500, SSM <s...@noEmail.invalid.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Why has it become so fashionable to bash Nemesis?
>
> Par for the course these days. It wasn't that bad of a movie. I
> figured the fans would be annoyed at its blatant "borrowing" (ahem!)
> of previous Trek movie plot elements, but I would think that for
> casual fans of the genre the movie would come off pretty well.
I was annoyed at the borrowing, but it wasn't just that. Borrowed
elements can be enjoyable if they're done well, and that's the key.
Nemesis was not done particularly well. For one, the story wasn't
well-constructed, IMO. Only the ending really grabbed me, even though
I had [unfortunately] seen spoilers on it, perhaps because the actual
experience in certain cases produces an emotional response even if
you're mentally prepared for it. The rest of the movie just wasn't
very interesting or logical, and many elements seemed pointless or
contrived. They detected a positronic signature from light years away?
But interference prevented accurate readings when they got there? A
bit of a stretch, I think. Why not "a federation archeological team
has found something"? Because then they probably couldn't have done
the whole dune buggy chase sequence they wanted to do (which I didn't
like anyway). That sequence certainly wasn't important to the plot...
It was fluff. The pure technobabble aspect of the "Thalaron radiation"
has already been discussed in another thread, so I won't do it again
here. It seemed like these and other plot elements were just thrown in
without any concern for how much sense they made, or how interesting
they really were, and I didn't particularly enjoy how the whole thing
turned out.
> But there were some mass media reviews that were just scathing, and
> that (unfairly, I think) scared off the casual fans. And that's a
> shame, when you look at how much "Men In Black II" made (even though
> Smith and Jones pretty much phoned in their performances) or how much
> "Attack of the Clones" (which has dialogue far worse than anything
> uttered in "Nemesis") made, you have to wonder.
Bad movies make money for the wrong reasons sometimes, but I don't
think that was the case with AotC. AotC's dialogue was definitely
terrible in some places (the romantic dialogue more than anything
else), but the plot worked much better, I think, and virtually every
moment had a *point*. As much as half of the movie annoyed me (parts
of it were great), as a whole it doesn't bother me nearly as much as
Nemesis. AotC was marred but not ruined for me by some bad dialogue
and some bad acting. The story I found very interesting, so it made up
for the bad parts to a degree. Nemesis didn't have terrible acting,
and didn't have terrible dialogue, but the story was almost completely
uninteresting, and that *did* ruin the movie, IMO.
> I liked "Nemesis" too, but it is a few leagues below "Two Towers"
> (which is a cinematic masterpiece, in my opinion.)
Agreed on "Two Towers", though I wasn't as wowed by it as I was by
FotR. Still, I can't wait for the next and final installment. I can't
say the same for Trek movies... I'm hoping they *don't* make another
installment.
Jeff
Dave Bushnell
> "marty mcmahone" <mmcma...@hot.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:0%QP9.4916$an1.3...@twister.austin.rr.com...
> >
> > > 4. Someone asked how did Shinzon know the Enterprise would find Stupid?
> > > I want to know how Picard knew Shinzon's plan for Stupid? And how did
> they
> > > get Stupid off the Remus ship after they (Picard and Data) escaped?
> >
> > Stupid never was on the Remus ship -- Data was.
>
> You missed my point. I know it was Data who was on the Remus ship. I was
> asking how did Picard see through Shinzon's plan to know to switch B4 with
> him reassembled and uploaded with Data's memory banks. Then we see B4
> accessing the Enterprise's databanks and Geordi not know who, how or why the
> data was scanned. The plot tells us that Shinzon is extending an olive
> branch to the Federation so Picard doesn't have Enterprise on Red Alert.
> Then when Picard is kidnapped, Shinzon's true colors are revealed. But B4
> is already on the Remus ship before Picard. But A-ha! It's now really B4,
> it's Data! My question is: How did Picard know to dress Data up as B4?
> There was no obvious link (to Picard) between B4 and Remus. We know that B4
> was a ploy to bring the Enterprise within close range of the Neutral Zone,
> which was the vehicle Janeway used to dispatch Enterprise to Romulus
> (ostensibly because they were closer than any other Federation ship). Up to
> Picard's kidnapping, no one on Enterprise linked B4 with Remus and Shinzon.
>
Halloo -- I actually saw the film last night, and there was a scene
(albeit momentary) where Geordi and Data state that (and the line is
something like this) "We've discovered the source of the computer
breech and we may have a way to gain a tactical advantage" So the
Data/B4 switch strategy was established. But what I don't recall
whas how Data posing as B4 had an opportunity to get over to Shinzon's
ship. Did Shinzon just call up and say "Sorry, but I'll need my decoy
back. . ."
Don't remember the premise for that one.
Timo S Saloniemi
>Halloo -- I actually saw the film last night, and there was a scene
>(albeit momentary) where Geordi and Data state that (and the line is
>something like this) "We've discovered the source of the computer
>breech and we may have a way to gain a tactical advantage" So the
>Data/B4 switch strategy was established. But what I don't recall
>whas how Data posing as B4 had an opportunity to get over to Shinzon's
>ship. Did Shinzon just call up and say "Sorry, but I'll need my decoy
>back. . ."
I would think Shinzon at that specific point of his plan would no longer
have need for subterfuge. He had now openly abducted Picard, after all.
Presumably he'd also recall his secret agent so that he could receive
a more thorough report from him, and presumably Data and LaForge would
have learned that B-4 was expecting such a pickup. Perhaps they even
learned how B-4 would signal the Remans to order the pickup.
Timo Saloniemi
luxan...@gmail.com
> Since I haven't seen anyone else pointing out the plot holes in this
> dumb, dumb, film, I guess I'll do it myself. It's not like I've
> memorised the movie or anything so I'll probably miss stuff, but.
>
> 1) The Enterprise is sent to Romulan space because its the "nearest
> ship," even though theres no immediate crisis. They would logically
> send the best diplomats, not any other Starship nearby. That's not
> the plot hole, however. The villian somehow magically knows Picard is
> coming, even though choosing the Enterprise for the mission was a
>
> whatever random planet it was on, how the heck did the villian know
> they'd find Data's brother? Space is a pretty big place. You'd have
> path they'd take, and you'd have to set it up way in advance.
>
> animation budget or something? Worf says, "Let's raise sheilds" after
> sitting there for eighteen hours waiting for the Romulan ship to
> arrive?
>
> 4) The bad guys kidnap Picard, cloak their ship, and just lets the
> Enterpise stay there in the center of the Romulan empire. The crew
> just kinda hangs around twiddling their thumbs. Oh, I forgot, the
> Romulans only have 3 ships.
>
> 5) The Romulan military randomly decides they'd like to be ruled by
> their former slaves, the Remans? I mean, a military coup makes sense,
> but put the Remans in charge. I mean, the military woman killed the
> senate... the Remans had nothing to do with it!
> 6) The romulans and Remans come togethor to put a crazy human guy in
> charge of the Empire? "You know what we need, some crazy human guy to
> lead our empire. Any can he be the evil twin clone of some federation
> hero, so they can have a big climactic confrontation? Maybe he can be
> really spooky and hang out in a dark, death star type throne room?"
> Naturally, the entire universe revolves around Picard. From the borg
> to the Romulans, everyone needs an evil Picard.
>
> with 2 little little ships, that look like klingon ships, so I thought
> at first they were imitating the next generation episode where the
> Klingon ships decloaked in Romulan space and save the Enterprise at a
> convinient plot moment.
>
> 8) So the slow countdown sequence to the firing of the Superweapon
> had begun (James Bond style.) And instead of doing the obvious thing
> and sending over a taskforce, Picard decides to go alone? Because he
> has such a great chance of singlehandidly defeating all the Remans on
> the enemy ship?
>
> 9) So, the bad guys have to wait till the Enterpise reaches some
> "rift' to attack, because their communications would be down? What
> good is that? The Enterprise already knew they were going to be
> attacked, because the evil clone wanted to kill Picard and the
> Enterprise would have had plenty of time to warn them about the
> Superweapon along the way before the rift.
> Hmm, that was a lot. Who can possibly take Star Trek seriously
> anymore? The writers certainly don't.