[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Fascination"

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Timothy W. Lynch

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Dec 3, 1994, 11:07:52 PM12/3/94
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WARNING: This article contains spoiler information for DS9's
"Fascination". Those individuals not fascinated by the idea of being
spoiled should back away.

Okay, good joke -- so where's the *real* show this week?
What? That was it? Uh-oh...

"Fascination" was, in brief, one of the weakest shows DS9's ever done.
More after the usual quick-and-dirty synopsis:

======
An unknown virus causes the DS9 crew to behave strangely, falling in love
with each other at the drop of a hat.
======

Now, as I was saying ... bleah.

Actually, I should try to say something good about the show, and I can
without too much trouble. I liked most of the O'Brien/Keiko plot -- and in
a different show, that could have been a strong segment carrying the whole.
Instead, it's the only part of the tape I don't particularly want to erase.

Let's start off with a point that's been concerning me for some time. I
don't recall if I've mentioned this before, but if so it bears repeating,
namely this:

We've seen Lwaxana as sexual predator before, certainly. Why is it,
though, that behavior which would rightfully be considered harassment when
performed by almost any other individual is instead presented as simply a
running joke in Lwaxana's case? We just had a show, in fact, where Kira
had a "suitor" whose interest might be considered sinister -- but
apparently while that's not okay, Lwaxana attaching herself to Odo like a
barnacle is. Sorry. I don't buy it, I don't appreciate it, and I
particularly dislike it being used as the McGuffin for a "crew goes silly"
show, which is usually of iffy quality anyway. Please, no more.

Moving from characters we see too much to characters we rarely see ... I
feel extremely sorry for Philip Anglim and for the character of Vedek
Bareil. Until now, Bareil has primarily been a character with hidden
depths, and one who has for the *most* part lent extra gravity to a show.
Not now, though -- now, he's this hormone-ridden oaf stuck saying some of
the most godawful lines on the face of the planet. The character deserves
better, and offhanded references to "gee, it's a good thing Winn made me
one of her advisers" only cheapens the plot he's been associated with, at
least in my view.

Speaking of plots, it would have been nice had this show had one beyond the
bare-bones "premise full of wackiness". "The Naked Time" and its TNG
successor may have been a little thin at times, but they had a story with
reasoning beyond the "let's have everyone jump everyone else" idea -- they
told us something about the characters. So far as I can tell, this one
didn't.

On to specific scenes. As I said, the O'Brien plot was the show's real
saving grace; conflicting careers certainly _can_ put a strain on a
marriage, and it's sensible that the subject be addressed. Both parties,
particularly Colm Meaney, were up to the job of it as well; O'Brien had
moments where you felt really sorry for him *and* where you agreed with his
later admission that "[he's] an idiot." The way the story played out was
somewhat by-the-numbers, maybe, but that doesn't much matter if it's done
well, and this one was. (The ending was also a little more up-in-the-air
than usual for me, because of the persistent rumors about Colm leaving the
series; I wondered if the resignation really *would* go through.)

Besides the "I'm an idiot" scene, the other O'Brien stuff that got my
attention the most was the opening scene with Bashir. The two of them have
got a nice little patter going by now, and it was highly amusing to hear
about their racquetball playing. That would have been cute by itself, but
the final scene of the show, with O'Brien leaving the airlock only to catch
a racquet, was a scream.

Unfortunately, now we've left the realm of the good portions of the
show, and are heading downhill rapidly. The Jake/Sisko opener about the
breakup with Marta was decent, especially on Jake's side of it (I hear
kids talking in just that tone of voice, oh, roughly every few hours :-) ),
but the worries I mentioned last time about Brooks's performance are
still very much prevalent; I don't know exactly what's up with his
delivery these days, but far from seeming more human it seems overplayed.

After that, I could write about all the various "romance" scenes we saw
played out, but I can pretty much sum it up by saying that none of it
worked for me whatsoever. Not Jake/Kira, not Bareil/Dax, not Dax/Sisko,
not Lwaxana/Odo, not Quark/Keiko, and not Kira/Bashir. Forget not seeming
realistic, since they weren't meant to -- these seemed pretty much
insulting all around, and _nobody_ ended up in a situation that did the
actors any justice whatsoever. Everybody looked like fools, to be blunt;
and I don't care for fools on Trek any more than I do anywhere else.

The "reason"for all of this, namely Lwaxana's illness, is a cliche that's
been overused where the character is concerned. In "Manhunt", her entrance
into "the phase" triggered the main story; in "Dark Page", her brain
shutdown *was* the main story. Do we really need Yet Another Episode
devoted to Lwaxana's mental functions wreaking havoc? And while most of
the situations with Lwaxana affecting people were actually shown, we're
never given any sense of her infecting, say, Bareil. What's more, we're
apparently meant to conclude that Sisko has no latent attraction to
*anyone* on the station, and that Keiko and O'Brien have no attractions to
anyone but each other. I don't care how happily married they are; both of
those claims are pretty tough to swallow, particularly Sisko. (Lisa
suggested that vomit might be a cure, which would explain both Keiko's and
Miles's immunity. :-) ) I also think the projection of Lwaxana's desires
outward should make everyone hot for *Odo*, not others, but that's a minor
point I'm willing to drop.

As for the continued Odo/Kira issue ... well, I still dislike it, but the
one positive I saw here was that it's semi-established that it's one-sided.
While I still think the whole idea is a bad one, at least we're meant to
conclude Kira is oblivious rather than intentionally being a twit.

Other than that, I've little to say about "Fascination" beyond a few short
points, so here goes:

-- Molly retching on Miles at the start of the show was good, but entirely
too symbolic for the episode's own good. That, combined with the gong
being sounded during the Renaissance ... er ... Gratitude Festival, was
sending off very loud hints about the quality of the show that may not have
been intended.

-- Cirroc Lofton hopping around like Quasimodo during the party sequences
was amusing. I'm not sure why. :-)

-- I don't know how many of you watch "My So-Called Life" as well, but for
those that do, there was a quote from Brian there a few weeks ago that
irresistibly jumped to mind when Dax started slithering all over Sisko and
Sisko got that silly grin on his face. I have *some* standards, and I'm a
mean person by nature, so I won't quote it -- but for those that know what
I'm talking about: isn't it completely appropriate? :-)

-- I do not buy for a moment that news of the Founders being Odo's people
has made it out far enough into the public that Lwaxana knows about it.

-- Lwaxana: "You know where to find me." Lisa: "Yes, madam; and which
*particular* circle of Hell might that be?"

That's it. "Fascination" held fascination, all right; the same sort of
morbid fascination that keeps you staring at traffic accidents. It's among
DS9's worst shows, though thanks to the O'Brien story not *the* worst --
and if I never see it again, it'll likely be far too soon.

All in all, I think we're talking about a 2.5 here. Ugh.

NEXT WEEK: A rerun from last year -- and a break from reviewing! :-)

Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu
"And you know what all those games taught me? That I'm a poor substitute
for your *wife*."
"I coulda told you that 60 games ago."
-- Bashir and O'Brien
--
Copyright 1994, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.

Admiral Wombat

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Dec 4, 1994, 1:06:31 AM12/4/94
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In <3brfao$3...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> tly...@alumni.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:

>WARNING: This article contains spoiler information for DS9's
>"Fascination". Those individuals not fascinated by the idea of being
>spoiled should back away.

>Okay, good joke -- so where's the *real* show this week?
>What? That was it? Uh-oh...

>"Fascination" was, in brief, one of the weakest shows DS9's ever done.
>More after the usual quick-and-dirty synopsis:

>======
>An unknown virus causes the DS9 crew to behave strangely, falling in love
>with each other at the drop of a hat.
>======

Yeah, that's about it....

>Now, as I was saying ... bleah.

[much omitted]

>Moving from characters we see too much to characters we rarely see ... I
>feel extremely sorry for Philip Anglim and for the character of Vedek
>Bareil. Until now, Bareil has primarily been a character with hidden
>depths, and one who has for the *most* part lent extra gravity to a show.
>Not now, though -- now, he's this hormone-ridden oaf stuck saying some of
>the most godawful lines on the face of the planet. The character deserves
>better, and offhanded references to "gee, it's a good thing Winn made me
>one of her advisers" only cheapens the plot he's been associated with, at
>least in my view.

This struck me as odd too. He used to be a cool, kind of aloof character
(except for the love scenes with Kira). In this show, even before he went
all funny, he just didn't match up to his past mystique.

[cut]

>On to specific scenes. As I said, the O'Brien plot was the show's real
>saving grace; conflicting careers certainly _can_ put a strain on a
>marriage, and it's sensible that the subject be addressed. Both parties,
>particularly Colm Meaney, were up to the job of it as well; O'Brien had
>moments where you felt really sorry for him *and* where you agreed with his
>later admission that "[he's] an idiot." The way the story played out was
>somewhat by-the-numbers, maybe, but that doesn't much matter if it's done
>well, and this one was. (The ending was also a little more up-in-the-air
>than usual for me, because of the persistent rumors about Colm leaving the
>series; I wondered if the resignation really *would* go through.)

I genuinely felt bad for the guy, especially when he was saying all the
wrong things and pissing Keiko off. I actually yelled at the TV "You're
blowing it, Chief!" when he said bone-headed things like "You can change
into something NICE"

And yes, thanks to the constant rumors, I was actually nervous and worried
about whether or not this was O'Brien's swan song.

>Besides the "I'm an idiot" scene, the other O'Brien stuff that got my
>attention the most was the opening scene with Bashir. The two of them have
>got a nice little patter going by now, and it was highly amusing to hear
>about their racquetball playing. That would have been cute by itself, but
>the final scene of the show, with O'Brien leaving the airlock only to catch
>a racquet, was a scream.

I found this to be an extremely unsatisfying conclusion. I would have much
rather seen some of the crew trying to answer to some of their actions of
the past few days. Perhaps something similar to what Tasha and Data shared
at the end of "The Naked Now." Tasha gets off a turbolift and onto the
bridge. Data sees her and his face shows that he has been thinking about
their "encounter" Tasha pulls him aside and whispers:

"Look, I'm only going to say this once: It never happened."

That was pretty funny, and I would have enjoyed something like that between
Kira and Bashir or Dax and Bareil.

[snip]

>The "reason"for all of this, namely Lwaxana's illness, is a cliche that's
>been overused where the character is concerned. In "Manhunt", her entrance
>into "the phase" triggered the main story; in "Dark Page", her brain
>shutdown *was* the main story. Do we really need Yet Another Episode
>devoted to Lwaxana's mental functions wreaking havoc? And while most of
>the situations with Lwaxana affecting people were actually shown, we're
>never given any sense of her infecting, say, Bareil. What's more, we're
>apparently meant to conclude that Sisko has no latent attraction to
>*anyone* on the station, and that Keiko and O'Brien have no attractions to
>anyone but each other. I don't care how happily married they are; both of
>those claims are pretty tough to swallow, particularly Sisko. (Lisa
>suggested that vomit might be a cure, which would explain both Keiko's and
>Miles's immunity. :-) ) I also think the projection of Lwaxana's desires
>outward should make everyone hot for *Odo*, not others, but that's a minor
>point I'm willing to drop.

Don't forget the TNG episode when an famous ambassador comes on board played
by a well known Trek actor. The crew's behavior displays widespread changes,
and it is discovered that the ambassador is ill and is projecting emotions
onto the crewmembers. The show was "Sarek (TNG)" and "Fascination (DS9)" was
a blatant rip-off. Not an homage, a rip-off. "Second Skin (DS9)" was
comparable to "Face of the Enemy (TNG)" and "Civil Defense (DS9)" had a few
things in common with "Disaster (TNG)", but overall the episodes are unique.
"Fascination" was so close to "Sarek" that they should have mentioned the
writer(s) who wrote the TNG show in the credits!

[clip]

>-- I do not buy for a moment that news of the Founders being Odo's people
>has made it out far enough into the public that Lwaxana knows about it.

Well, Lwaxana is no ordinary Jane Q. Public. She hier to the Holy Rings of
Betazed, or something...

>-- Lwaxana: "You know where to find me." Lisa: "Yes, madam; and which
>*particular* circle of Hell might that be?"

I'm sorry, what does this mean? Who is Lisa?

>That's it. "Fascination" held fascination, all right; the same sort of
>morbid fascination that keeps you staring at traffic accidents. It's among
>DS9's worst shows, though thanks to the O'Brien story not *the* worst --
>and if I never see it again, it'll likely be far too soon.

>All in all, I think we're talking about a 2.5 here. Ugh.

>NEXT WEEK: A rerun from last year -- and a break from reviewing! :-)

>Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
>tly...@alumni.caltech.edu
>"And you know what all those games taught me? That I'm a poor substitute
>for your *wife*."
>"I coulda told you that 60 games ago."
> -- Bashir and O'Brien

Actually, considering Bashir said they've played 17 games, doesn't that mean
16 instead of 60? As if to say, I knew you weren't any good after the first
game.

Of course, I could be wrong and Bashir said 70 games...

>Copyright 1994, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
>This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
>compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
>author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.

--
Reply to : wb1c...@picard.cc.rochester.edu
"It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob." -The Brain
"Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder." -Garak
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" -Monty Python's Flying Circus

Brad Books

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Dec 4, 1994, 2:58:25 AM12/4/94
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In article <3brfao$3...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Timothy W. Lynch,

tly...@alumni.caltech.edu writes:
>Moving from characters we see too much to characters we rarely see ... I
>feel extremely sorry for Philip Anglim and for the character of Vedek
>Bareil. Until now, Bareil has primarily been a character with hidden
>depths, and one who has for the *most* part lent extra gravity to a show.
>Not now, though -- now, he's this hormone-ridden oaf stuck saying some of
>the most godawful lines on the face of the planet. The character deserves
>better, and offhanded references to "gee, it's a good thing Winn made me
>one of her advisers" only cheapens the plot he's been associated with, at
>least in my view.

I didn't really think about this until I rewatched the episode of the last time
we saw Bareil: "The Collaborator". You're absolutely right. In "The
Collaborator",
Bareil has a mysterious quality that's entirely missing in "Fascination".
So far, the writing this season has been lacking. I'm looking foward to the
2nd season reruns coming up because I haven't seen them, and what I did see
of last season DS9 was better than I've been seeing recently. It seems that
DS9 is really hurting from the loss of Peter Allen Fields and the addition of
Ron Moore. It seems as if Moore was good for a few TNG stories and then lasped
into soap-opera writing, which he's now brought to DS9.

Brad

P.S. Does anybody know the _real_ reason Peter Allen Fields left the show?

David Thiel

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Dec 4, 1994, 12:57:50 PM12/4/94
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In article <3brfao$3...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> tly...@alumni.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:

>"Fascination" was, in brief, one of the weakest shows DS9's ever done.

Ah, c'mon--it was fun. It was meant as a bit of light comedy, and succeeded
very well. Our group found it throroughly entertaining.

>Actually, I should try to say something good about the show, and I can
>without too much trouble. I liked most of the O'Brien/Keiko plot -- and in
>a different show, that could have been a strong segment carrying the whole.

It was very strong. This was one of the few times in which the "B" story
complemented the main plot well. The only problem I have with the O'Brien/
Keiko relationship is that it always seem to be in a state of crisis. I hope
we can get through the rest of the season without one of them in a snit.

>We've seen Lwaxana as sexual predator before, certainly. Why is it,
>though, that behavior which would rightfully be considered harassment when
>performed by almost any other individual is instead presented as simply a
>running joke in Lwaxana's case? We just had a show, in fact, where Kira
>had a "suitor" whose interest might be considered sinister -- but
>apparently while that's not okay, Lwaxana attaching herself to Odo like a
>barnacle is.

Are you talking about Riker in "Defiant?" Sorry, don't see the connection.
Lwaxana's not using Odo to get something; she's genuinely interested in him.
They did share a rather special moment during her last visit, so her
actions, if unappreciated by Odo, aren't entirely unjustified. She's not
being threatening or abusive, she's just being a pest--which is entirely in
character. And who said it was "okay?" The comedy comes from the fact that
it isn't okay, at least as far as Odo is concerned.

>Speaking of plots, it would have been nice had this show had one beyond the
>bare-bones "premise full of wackiness". "The Naked Time" and its TNG
>successor may have been a little thin at times, but they had a story with
>reasoning beyond the "let's have everyone jump everyone else" idea -- they
>told us something about the characters. So far as I can tell, this one
>didn't.

I really disagree that there was any more story to "The Naked Now" than
"Fascination." The only difference was the inevitable "ship-in-danger"
fourth act in "Now." All we really learned from "Now" was that Data was
"fully-functional," and that Bev wanted to be.

I also don't agree that we learned nothing about the characters in this
one. Leaving aside the O'Brien plot (which was given a considerable amount
of screen time), we finally got Odo's attraction to Kira out on the table.
Plus, the very notion that Lwaxana's condition was bringing out the crew's
latent desires certainly stirs up the pot, if the writers choose to pursue
this thread. (Though I don't think I'm ready for a Quark/Keiko romance!)

>As for the continued Odo/Kira issue ... well, I still dislike it, but the
>one positive I saw here was that it's semi-established that it's one-sided.
>While I still think the whole idea is a bad one, at least we're meant to
>conclude Kira is oblivious rather than intentionally being a twit.

What's so awful about it? The one thing I've liked about the season thus
far is the development of Odo. Last year, they made Dax interesting; this
year, they've taken Odo beyond the "alien with no past who doesn't
understand these hu-man ways." If Odo was to develop an romantic interest in
anyone, it *should* be Kira. He's known her longer than any of the others,
and she's always gone out of the way to be nice to him.

Also, I would really like to see a romance between two of the main
characters go somewhere for a change. Since we mentioned "The Naked Now"
earlier, I should note that when I originally saw that episode, I was really
excited about the possibility of a Picard/Crusher relationship. It was very
disappointing when Roddenberry, et al decided that they needed to keep
everyone free for the romance-of-the-week. A ship full of families, yet the
command crew was entirely unattached (Bev's dead husband aside) except for
an hour at a time. With eight or nine regulars, two of them could have been
spared to have a real, lasting relationship. Besides, if you needed someone
to fall in love with an alien ambassador, that's what Riker and Troi were
for.

If Odo and Kira wind up an item, more power to 'em! At least it's being
built up gradually, not like that weirdo Worf/Troi thing last year.

>All in all, I think we're talking about a 2.5 here. Ugh.

C'mon, even the O'Brien plot was worth more than that. I give it an 8 for
being outrageously funny. Pretty thin, but so what? They don't all have to
be "Frame of Mind." Next month, I'm sure they'll have one with a lot of
techno-babble everyone can complain about.

-- David Thiel / Asst. Program Director / WILL-TV
University of Illinois / Urbana
Internet: d-t...@uiuc.edu

Disclaimer: My views do not reflect those
of WILL-TV, PBS or Barney.

Heather L. Nadelman

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Dec 4, 1994, 12:38:13 PM12/4/94
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>-- I don't know how many of you watch "My So-Called Life" as well, but for
>those that do, there was a quote from Brian there a few weeks ago that
>irresistibly jumped to mind when Dax started slithering all over Sisko and
>Sisko got that silly grin on his face. I have *some* standards, and I'm a
>mean person by nature, so I won't quote it -- but for those that know what
>I'm talking about: isn't it completely appropriate? :-)


I do and it was.

---Heather
nade...@phoenix.princeton.edu

Dennis F. Hefferman

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Dec 5, 1994, 1:53:50 PM12/5/94
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In <3brfao$3...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> tly...@alumni.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:

|WARNING: This article contains spoiler information for DS9's
|"Fascination". Those individuals not fascinated by the idea of being
|spoiled should back away.
|
|Okay, good joke -- so where's the *real* show this week?
|What? That was it? Uh-oh...
|

|Moving from characters we see too much to characters we rarely see ... I


|feel extremely sorry for Philip Anglim and for the character of Vedek
|Bareil. Until now, Bareil has primarily been a character with hidden
|depths, and one who has for the *most* part lent extra gravity to a show.
|Not now, though -- now, he's this hormone-ridden oaf stuck saying some of
|the most godawful lines on the face of the planet. The character deserves
|better, and offhanded references to "gee, it's a good thing Winn made me
|one of her advisers" only cheapens the plot he's been associated with, at
|least in my view.

In particular, Anglim seemed to be heavily medicated for most of this
episode. He's normally laid-back, but he hit the "walking dead" level in
this one.

|never given any sense of her infecting, say, Bareil. What's more, we're
|apparently meant to conclude that Sisko has no latent attraction to
|*anyone* on the station, and that Keiko and O'Brien have no attractions to
|anyone but each other. I don't care how happily married they are; both of

In the only thing I can say in the show's defense, I thought it was
pretty obvious that Lwaxana's emanations were targetting specific
individuals, not being globally radiated. The O'Briens and Sisko simply
never got hit.

|That's it. "Fascination" held fascination, all right; the same sort of
|morbid fascination that keeps you staring at traffic accidents. It's among
|DS9's worst shows, though thanks to the O'Brien story not *the* worst --
|and if I never see it again, it'll likely be far too soon.

I can't think of a worse one, offhand...and that's bad.


--
Dennis Francis Heffernan IRC: FuzyLogic heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu
Montclair State University #include <disclaim.h> Computer Science/Philosophy
"They feed you on the guilt to keep you humble, keep you low/Some man and myth
they made up a thousand years ago." -- "Silent Legacy", Melissa Etheridge

Rand al'Thor

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Dec 5, 1994, 4:24:56 PM12/5/94
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In article <d-thiel.148...@uiuc.edu>,

David Thiel <d-t...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
We just had a show, in fact, where Kira
>>had a "suitor" whose interest might be considered sinister -- but
>>apparently while that's not okay, Lwaxana attaching herself to Odo like a
>>barnacle is.
>
>Are you talking about Riker in "Defiant?" Sorry, don't see the connection.
>Lwaxana's not using Odo to get something; she's genuinely interested in him.

I think he's talking about that alien in Meridian who wanted
the holosuite program of Kira.

/
:@-) Scott
\

Daniel Hartung

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Dec 5, 1994, 4:48:21 PM12/5/94
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Then you , sir, are an extremely generous reviewer.

I, on the other hand, feel entitled to be highly disappointed (having
defended DS9 the last couple of years). Last year I was saying,
"Well, DS9 still has some of the problems of TNG, but they're
being so interesting it doesn't matter." [and not to start another
needless flamewar, but I was noting that Babylon 5 was being interesting,
though still without polish; this year, B5 is a bit more polished,
and a bit more interesting, while DS9 has descended miserably
in both measures.]

All in all, it's not a good time to be a Trek fan. I find myslef
placing higher hopes for Voyager than I would like to, simply
because I need at least one dose of Trek amazement to carry me
through the average month. ;-) See, it's not the addiction
that kills you, it's the withdrawal.....

--
Daniel A. Hartung | Support the new Arts/Humanities hierarchy!
dhar...@mcs.com | "I believe we can fly
dhar...@chinet.chinet.com | on the wings that we create"
Dan@home. | -- Melissa Etheridge

David Thiel

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Dec 5, 1994, 6:59:37 PM12/5/94
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In article <3c01r5$8...@Mars.mcs.com> dhar...@MCS.COM (Daniel Hartung) writes:

>David Thiel <d-t...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>
>>C'mon, even the O'Brien plot was worth more than that. I give it an 8 for
>>being outrageously funny.
>>

>Then you , sir, are an extremely generous reviewer.

Perhaps I'm being generous because others are being stingy. When I rate
something, I ask, "what does it try to do?" and "does it succeed?"
"A Midsummer Night's Dream" has been mentioned several times in the
threads about "Fascination," and perhaps that's an apt comparison.
Shakespeare's original had a pretty thin plot, too--it's the execution that
makes it memorable. For me, "Fascination" succeeded in what it was trying
to do--light comedy. While I wouldn't want every episode to be like it, it
was a highly entertaining show in what has generally been a lackluster
season.

>I, on the other hand, feel entitled to be highly disappointed (having
>defended DS9 the last couple of years). Last year I was saying,
>"Well, DS9 still has some of the problems of TNG, but they're
>being so interesting it doesn't matter." [and not to start another
>needless flamewar, but I was noting that Babylon 5 was being interesting,
>though still without polish; this year, B5 is a bit more polished,
>and a bit more interesting, while DS9 has descended miserably
>in both measures.]

Agreed that DS9 is much weaker than last year, which started strong, stayed
strong for most of the season, and ended with a knockout. This year, they've
been killing time. The development of Odo is about the only thing worth
writing home about.

On the other hand, don't get me started about B5. After the fumbled
resolution of the Sinclair storyline, it'll be quite a while before I'll let
myself get too involved in one of their sloooooowly-developing storylines. I
started out being a JMS groupie, but got tired of saying, "Well, yeah, that
was pretty lame, but just wait 'til the really kick-butt episode at the end
of season four!" Impress me *now.* This week, they fought the Devil. Sheesh.

Martin H Duke

unread,
Dec 5, 1994, 8:26:40 PM12/5/94
to
EPISODES OF ST:DS9
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Notes:
- This is about 95% spoiler free. Be warned, though,
because you might get burned. For instance, I know "The Passenger" has
a pretty bad spoiler in it.
- Many thanks are in order to David Henderson, who sent me a whole
load of typos from this list and suggested that I number it with a system
consistent with my TNG list.

1ST SEASON:
1. "EMISSARY, PART I"- The crew arrives to take control of and rebuild
the station.
2. "EMISSARY, PART II"- Dax and Sisko investigate an ancient Bajoran
religious artifact, which leads them to an artificial wormhole.
3. "PAST PROLOGUE"- A Bajoran rebel, who hates the Federation as
much as he did the Cardassians, tests Kira's loyalties.
4. "A MAN ALONE"- An old enemy of Odo's is murdered, making Odo the
prime suspect and the victim of racism.
5. "BABEL"- A virus making communication impossible spreads
throughout the ship.
6. "CAPTIVE PURSUIT"- A mysterious reptile from the Gamma Quadrant
is befriended by O'Brien, and proves to be the dutiful prey in an
elaborate hunt.
7. "Q-LESS"- When Vash is found abandoned in the Gamma Quadrant, Q
comes by to patch things up; a mysterious power drain plagues the
station.
8. "DAX"- Jadzia Dax is accused of murder and treason; Sisko delays
extradition while Odo attempts to prove her innocence.
9. "THE PASSENGER"- An alien killer, wanted for 20 years, arrives
at DS9, apparently dead but in reality residing in the unused portion of
the brain of a live person.
10. "MOVE ALONG HOME"- A new alien race makes contact, and
immediately starts playing games at Quark's, one of which threatens the
four senior officers.
11. "THE NAGUS"- The Ferengi head of state comes to Deep Space Nine
and offers Quark his position; Sisko wants to end Jake's relationship
with Nog.
12. "VORTEX"- A mysterious alien is arrested for homicide, but
promises to lead Odo to a colony of shape-shifters in exchange for his
freedom.
13. "BATTLE LINES"- Sisko, Kira, Bashir, and Kai Opaka crash-land on
an uncharted planet where everyone is immortal and an endless battle
rages on.
14. "THE STORYTELLER"- O'Brien and Bashir come to a village
threatened by a mysterious cloud creature, and O'Brien is named their
new spiritual leader; Jake and Nog pursue a teenage Bajoran leader.
15. "PROGRESS"- A single man stands in the way of a power generation
project on one of Bajor's moons, and Kira has trouble bringing herself
to removing him.
16. "IF WISHES WERE HORSES"- A bizarre subspace anomaly seems to be
causing imaginations to manifest themselves in reality.
17. "THE FORSAKEN"- When a number of fussy politicians and a space
probe arrive at the same time, the computer acts up, and Odo is stuck in
an turbolift with Lwaxana Troi.
18. "DRAMATIS PERSONAE"- After the explosion of a Klingon ship,
everyone begins acting strangely, and Kira attempts to start a mutiny.
19. "DUET"- Kira is anxious to prosecute a Cardassian war criminal.
20. "IN THE HANDS OF THE PROPHETS"- An orthodox Bajoran spiritual
leader protests Keiko's teaching of science without religion in DS9's
school; an engineer is found murdered.

2ND SEASON:
21. "THE HOMECOMING"- Kira and O'Brien rescue an old Bajoran war
hero at a labor camp, but he is a reluctant leader to the Bajoran people.
[Part 1/3]
22. "THE CIRCLE"- Kira dwells on the situation at the monastery;
the Circle makes its move to take over the planet. [Part 2/3]
23. "THE SIEGE" - Kira and Dax try to deliver the evidence of
Cardassian aid to the Provisional Government; the others resist the
Circle's attack on the station. [Part 3/3]
24. "INVASIVE PROCEDURES"- A Trill arrives at the undermanned
station and demands the Dax symbiont.
25. "CARDASSIANS"- A Cardassian "war orphan," raised to hate
Cardassians, comes to the attention of Sisko, Bashir, and the Cardassians.
26. "MELORA"- A bitter ensign, handicapped by gravity, falls in love
with Bashir.
27. "RULES OF ACQUISITION"- The Nagus orders Quark to negotiate
a deal to open the Gamma Quadrant; he enlists the help of an assistant
that turns out to be a female.
28. "NECESSARY EVIL"- An attack on Quark resurrects a five-year-old
murder case, where Kira is a prime suspect.
29. "SECOND SIGHT"- Sisko falls in love with a mysterious woman; an
arrogant scientists seeks to ignite a dead star.
30. "SANCTUARY"- 3 million refugees arrive from the Gamma Quadrant
and request permission to live on Bajor.
31. "RIVALS"- A con man finds a new game that threatens Quark's
business; Bashir and O'Brien develop a racquetball rivalry; runs of good
and bad luck begin in the station.
32. "THE ALTERNATE"- Odo's "father" -- the Bajoran scientist who first
studied him -- thinks he may have found Odo's homeworld in the Gamma
Quadrant.
33. "ARMAGEDDON GAME"- Bashir and O'Brien hide out from aliens on one
of their planets; O'Brien is infected with their bio-weapon; the rest of the
crew thinks they're dead.
34. "WHISPERS"- O'Brien finds that everyone on board the station is
acting strangely.
35. "PARADISE"- Sisko and O'Brien stumble upon a colony that cannot and
will not use technology.
36. "SHADOWPLAY"- Dax and Odo find a village where everybody is
disappearing; Jake begins an apprenticeship with O'Brien; Kira welcomes Vedek
Bareil onto the station.
37. "PLAYING GOD"- While Dax evaluates a Trill initiate, she brings a
miniature universe back from the Gamma Quadrant; O'Brien and Kira try to get
rid of Cardassian Voles; Jake says he's in love with a Dabo girl.
38. "PROFIT AND LOSS"- A group of Cardassian dissidents arrives on the
station, one of whom is Quark's ex-lover.
39. "BLOOD OATH"- Kor, Koloth, and Kang come to DS9 seeking Dax to help
take vengeance on an old Klingon murderer.
40. "THE MAQUIS, PART I"- Sisko and Gul Dukat try to get to the bottom of
some apparent terrorist attacks on the Cardassians.
41. "THE MAQUIS, PART II"- Sisko and Dukat try to forcibly stop the
Maquis.
42. "THE WIRE"- Garak begins to suffer side effects from a Cardassian
biotechnology implant.
43. "CROSSOVER"- Kira and Bashir find themselves in the "Mirror, Mirror"
universe, where Kira rules the station and humans are slaves.
44. "THE COLLABORATOR"- Before the election of the new Kai, Kira must prove
the innocence of Vedek Bareil against accusations <by Vedek Winn> that he was
a collaborator.
45. "TRIBUNAL"- While on vacation with Keiko, O'Brien is arrested by the
Cardassians and put on trial.
46. "THE JEM' HADAR"- Sisko, Quark, Jake, and Nog go on vacation in the
Gamma Quadrant, but stumble upon a base for the Dominion's elite warriors;
the Federation responds in force.

3RD SEASON:
47. "THE SEARCH, PART I"- Sisko brings the Defiant to Deep Space 9 to
face the Dominion; the crew takes it into the Gamma Quadrant to contact the
founders; Odo feels an instinctive urge to visit an uncharted nebula.
48. "THE SEARCH, PART II"- Odo explores his homeworld and what it is to
be a changeling; Kira tries to find out what happened to the rest of the
crew; the others think they are trying to prevent the signing of a bad peace
treaty with the Dominion, but are actually being tested by them.
49. "THE HOUSE OF QUARK"- Quark claims to have killed a Klingon in
honorable death, and is forced to marry the widow to preserve the house;
O'Brien worries that Keiko is unhappy about losing her career.
50. "EQUILIBRIUM"- Dax has a number of odd hallucinations, acts
strangely, and must travel to Trill to correct the problem.
51. "SECOND SKIN"- Kira is abducted by Cardassians and told that she
is a Cardassian spy with her memories altered.
52. "THE ABANDONED"- When Quark finds an infant Jem'Hadar that rapidly
develops into an adult, Odo tries to show him that there is more to life
than killing; Jake goes out with a dabo girl named Marta.
53. "CIVIL DEFENSE"- O'Brien and Jake accidentally activate an old
Cardassian program designed to contain a Bajoran worker revolt.
54. "MERIDIAN"- The Defiant finds a planet that phases in and out of
corporeal form, where Dax falls in love; Quark tries to get a holoimage
of Kira for an infatuated customer.
55. "DEFIANT"- Thomas Riker, now of the Maquis, steals the Defiant and
uses it to raid the Cardassians.
56. "FASCINATION"- During the Bajoran Gratitude Festival, Lwaxana Troi's
illness makes everyone on the station have amorous feelings for a particular
member of the opposite sex; O'Brien and Keiko have to iron out some
difficulties in their marriage.
57. "PAST TENSE, PART I"-
58. "PAST TENSE, PART II"-

Direct any requests to:
Martin H. Duke
pat...@athena.mit.edu
(c) 1994 by Martin H. Duke. All rights reserved. Permission is granted for
personal use only.

Keywords: DS9 Lwaxana lust

Vincent E. Kargatis

unread,
Dec 5, 1994, 9:13:02 PM12/5/94
to
What, no mention of Avery Brooks' direction? I was pleasantly surprised,
and thought that that was the highlight of the episode.
--
Vincent Kargatis -- Space Physics & | "By the way, I hate your dog,
Astronomy, Rice U., Houston, TX | and I think jazz is STUPID!"
[v...@spacsun.rice.edu] | - to Steve Martin's character
[http://spacsun.rice.edu/~vek/vek.html] | in ALL OF ME

Ted McCoy

unread,
Dec 6, 1994, 12:41:55 AM12/6/94
to
In article <3brfao$3...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,

Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>WARNING: This article contains spoiler information for DS9's
>"Fascination". Those individuals not fascinated by the idea of being
>spoiled should back away.

>Okay, good joke -- so where's the *real* show this week?
>What? That was it? Uh-oh...

Yeah.

>Now, as I was saying ... bleah.

>Actually, I should try to say something good about the show, and I can
>without too much trouble. I liked most of the O'Brien/Keiko plot -- and in
>a different show, that could have been a strong segment carrying the whole.
>Instead, it's the only part of the tape I don't particularly want to erase.

Actually I thought the acting was extremely good in this episode. And I really
really liked Avery Brooks' direction. It was him right? I just wish the
actors and director had been given a decent script to work with. Anyway, this
episode showed me something I've noticed before: even when the script is
awful (as it was here), the characters on this show are fascinating enough
that I still enjoy watching them. Now, this was hurt a bit because the
characters often just weren't themselves. But still, the acting and the ways
the characters reacted to each other (when the hormones weren't causing the
reactions) were fun. Especially in the Keiko-O'Brien subplot.

>Let's start off with a point that's been concerning me for some time. I
>don't recall if I've mentioned this before, but if so it bears repeating,
>namely this:
>
>We've seen Lwaxana as sexual predator before, certainly. Why is it,
>though, that behavior which would rightfully be considered harassment when
>performed by almost any other individual is instead presented as simply a
>running joke in Lwaxana's case? We just had a show, in fact, where Kira
>had a "suitor" whose interest might be considered sinister -- but
>apparently while that's not okay, Lwaxana attaching herself to Odo like a
>barnacle is. Sorry. I don't buy it, I don't appreciate it, and I
>particularly dislike it being used as the McGuffin for a "crew goes silly"
>show, which is usually of iffy quality anyway. Please, no more.

Wow, you're taking this awfully seriously! ;-)

>Moving from characters we see too much to characters we rarely see ... I
>feel extremely sorry for Philip Anglim and for the character of Vedek
>Bareil. Until now, Bareil has primarily been a character with hidden
>depths, and one who has for the *most* part lent extra gravity to a show.
>Not now, though -- now, he's this hormone-ridden oaf stuck saying some of
>the most godawful lines on the face of the planet. The character deserves
>better, and offhanded references to "gee, it's a good thing Winn made me
>one of her advisers" only cheapens the plot he's been associated with, at
>least in my view.

Actually I really liked his comments about Winn (and I think they weren't
quite as cheap as your paraphrase implies). First, it's nice to see that
they remember that arc is still going on in the background! (Yeah, I was
getting worried.) Second, that one simple comment opens the door to a lot
of potentially very interesting episodes.

>Speaking of plots, it would have been nice had this show had one beyond the
>bare-bones "premise full of wackiness". "The Naked Time" and its TNG
>successor may have been a little thin at times, but they had a story with
>reasoning beyond the "let's have everyone jump everyone else" idea -- they
>told us something about the characters. So far as I can tell, this one
>didn't.

It was mostly "let's tell us something about Lwaxana," I think. Actually I
liked the way they resolved this whole mess, the explanation. Not that the
explanation justified the "premise full of wackiness."

>Unfortunately, now we've left the realm of the good portions of the
>show, and are heading downhill rapidly. The Jake/Sisko opener about the
>breakup with Marta was decent, especially on Jake's side of it (I hear
>kids talking in just that tone of voice, oh, roughly every few hours :-) ),
>but the worries I mentioned last time about Brooks's performance are
>still very much prevalent; I don't know exactly what's up with his
>delivery these days, but far from seeming more human it seems overplayed.

Wow, I thought this was one of his best performances yet. It seemed very
human to me.

>After that, I could write about all the various "romance" scenes we saw
>played out, but I can pretty much sum it up by saying that none of it
>worked for me whatsoever. Not Jake/Kira, not Bareil/Dax, not Dax/Sisko,
>not Lwaxana/Odo, not Quark/Keiko, and not Kira/Bashir. Forget not seeming
>realistic, since they weren't meant to -- these seemed pretty much
>insulting all around, and _nobody_ ended up in a situation that did the
>actors any justice whatsoever. Everybody looked like fools, to be blunt;
>and I don't care for fools on Trek any more than I do anywhere else.

Those scenes were agony...well, in some cases the acting made them vaguely
watchable, but none of them were at all enjoyable, for me anyway.

>The "reason"for all of this, namely Lwaxana's illness, is a cliche that's
>been overused where the character is concerned. In "Manhunt", her entrance
>into "the phase" triggered the main story; in "Dark Page", her brain
>shutdown *was* the main story. Do we really need Yet Another Episode
>devoted to Lwaxana's mental functions wreaking havoc? And while most of
>the situations with Lwaxana affecting people were actually shown, we're
>never given any sense of her infecting, say, Bareil. What's more, we're
>apparently meant to conclude that Sisko has no latent attraction to
>*anyone* on the station, and that Keiko and O'Brien have no attractions to
>anyone but each other. I don't care how happily married they are; both of
>those claims are pretty tough to swallow, particularly Sisko. (Lisa
>suggested that vomit might be a cure, which would explain both Keiko's and
>Miles's immunity. :-) ) I also think the projection of Lwaxana's desires
>outward should make everyone hot for *Odo*, not others, but that's a minor
>point I'm willing to drop.

Again -- you're taking some of this awfully seriously. ;-)

I do find it interesting the way Lwaxana's appearances on TNG and DS9 have
shown her gradual mental breakdown -- has she pissed off the writers or
something? Anyway, this seemed to fit in very well with her character for me.
I was expecting the explanation for this episode to be a lot stupider.

>As for the continued Odo/Kira issue ... well, I still dislike it, but the
>one positive I saw here was that it's semi-established that it's one-sided.
>While I still think the whole idea is a bad one, at least we're meant to
>conclude Kira is oblivious rather than intentionally being a twit.

I still don't really see what's wrong with this whole Odo/Kira business
(unless Kira is actively interested in Odo, but that is apparently not the
case).

>-- I do not buy for a moment that news of the Founders being Odo's people
>has made it out far enough into the public that Lwaxana knows about it.

Yeah, if it's public knowledge like that, there ought to be more of a general
reaction against Odo. On the other hand, given Lwaxana's interest in Odo,
I'm not sure if her knowing about Odo's people implies that it is common
knowledge.

>That's it. "Fascination" held fascination, all right; the same sort of
>morbid fascination that keeps you staring at traffic accidents. It's among
>DS9's worst shows, though thanks to the O'Brien story not *the* worst --
>and if I never see it again, it'll likely be far too soon.

Wow, you completely ignored the music and direction! I thought the direction
did an especially good job of capturing the feel of a festival on DS9.

>All in all, I think we're talking about a 2.5 here. Ugh.

No way, ratings that low are reserved for Time Trax and Space Rangers!

Actually, I don't think there's been a DS9 episode since season one that I'd
rate below a 5. Mostly because I keep comparing them to shows like Time
Trax and Space Rangers. I'd give this one a low 6. My second least favorite
episode since season one.

>NEXT WEEK: A rerun from last year -- and a break from reviewing! :-)


Ted

Cook Thomas W

unread,
Dec 6, 1994, 9:42:12 AM12/6/94
to
David Thiel (d-t...@uiuc.edu) wrote:

: Perhaps I'm being generous because others are being stingy. When I rate

: something, I ask, "what does it try to do?" and "does it succeed?"
: "A Midsummer Night's Dream" has been mentioned several times in the
: threads about "Fascination," and perhaps that's an apt comparison.
: Shakespeare's original had a pretty thin plot, too--it's the execution that
: makes it memorable. For me, "Fascination" succeeded in what it was trying
: to do--light comedy. While I wouldn't want every episode to be like it, it
: was a highly entertaining show in what has generally been a lackluster
: season.

I would like to add that this episode will likely have more *long-term
impact* on the show than most of the dramatic episodes. Most of those
shows manage to return everything to normal at the end and forget about
it, but "Facination" fleshes out a lot of the subtler interactions
between characters (even if many of us would rather that Kira/Bashir bit
had never happenned) and many of these will likely appear again in one
form or another. The plot was set decoration. No more, no less.

Thomas.

Daniel Hartung

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Dec 6, 1994, 1:46:24 PM12/6/94
to
(David, changing subject lines -- emailing so you don't msiss it)

David Thiel <d-t...@uiuc.edu> wrote:


>dhar...@MCS.COM (Daniel Hartung) writes:
>>Then you , sir, are an extremely generous reviewer.
>
>Perhaps I'm being generous because others are being stingy.

I defend your right to be generous, don't get me worng. ;-)
I just think there's way too much generosity in the reviews
around here. God, I'm a Trek fan going on 20 year (and I'm
31 myself); it took me four years to warm up to TNG (the show
that did it was "First Contact") and I got to be as big
a fan of that show, and now of DS9, as of the original. (I'm
no purist, after all.) I';m also someone who'll say that
bad star trek is better than average television any day of
the week.

I just try, always, to rate them honestly, outside the
context of my personal affection. I look at the SOS, for
instance, and I see lots of average reviews in the 7-8 range or
even approaching 9. To me, that may reflect affection, but not
honest reviewing.

I saw Generations, I enjoyed it, had fun, will probably see
it again. But I feel rating it a 6.0 is generous...

It's like with all movie reviews. If "The Godfather" is four
stars, how on earth can "True Lies" be anything higher than one?
Okay, different movies, different scales, but just be sure
what scale you're using.

When I rate
>something, I ask, "what does it try to do?" and "does it succeed?"
>"A Midsummer Night's Dream" has been mentioned several times in the
>threads about "Fascination," and perhaps that's an apt comparison.
>Shakespeare's original had a pretty thin plot, too--it's the execution that
>makes it memorable. For me, "Fascination" succeeded in what it was trying
>to do--light comedy. While I wouldn't want every episode to be like it, it
>was a highly entertaining show in what has generally been a lackluster
>season.

I have to say that I wish, dearly wish, I had been "highly
entertained". *sigh*

>Agreed that DS9 is much weaker than last year, which started strong, stayed
>strong for most of the season, and ended with a knockout. This year, they've
>been killing time. The development of Odo is about the only thing worth
>writing home about.

...and to me, a lot of it is bad. I feel they are coming close
to ruining Odo.

>On the other hand, don't get me started about B5. After the fumbled
>resolution of the Sinclair storyline, it'll be quite a while before I'll let
>myself get too involved in one of their sloooooowly-developing storylines. I
>started out being a JMS groupie, but got tired of saying, "Well, yeah, that

Kick me the day I address an ATTN JMS message.

>was pretty lame, but just wait 'til the really kick-butt episode at the end
>of season four!" Impress me *now.* This week, they fought the Devil. Sheesh.

I felt it was impressive. Excellent characterization, sharp
performances, special effects that fell a bit short of the amark (sometimes
they exceed what really looks good on a small screen), and
a romance that was presented almost as a character flaw rather
than a tragic soaper. It started with a couple of sf standard
plot devices, but went interesting places with them.

Again, that's me being fair -- I've never minded plot devices,
as long as they aren't poorly handled. And we're always limited
in how much characters cna change in a tv series. It's not the format
that grabs me (although I enjoy the idea of a five-year strory arc,
it's not a prime motivator here) ... it's not whether you use
standard off-the -shelf plot elements either. This isn't Faulkner,
after all...

Ultimately, it's what you DO with these elements and limiations.

David Thiel

unread,
Dec 6, 1994, 3:01:25 PM12/6/94
to
In article <3c2bi0$r...@Mercury.mcs.com> dhar...@MCS.COM (Daniel Hartung) writes:

>(David, changing subject lines -- emailing so you don't msiss it)

Caught it, but thanks anyway!

>David Thiel <d-t...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>dhar...@MCS.COM (Daniel Hartung) writes:

>>>Then you , sir, are an extremely generous reviewer.
>>
>>Perhaps I'm being generous because others are being stingy.
>
>I defend your right to be generous, don't get me worng. ;-)
>I just think there's way too much generosity in the reviews
>around here.

Really? Admittedly, the initial reviews for GENERATIONS were a lot more
generous than I expected, but usually most of the people here do nothing
but nitpick these shows to death over physics/genetics inaccuracies. Plus, I
feel there's a bias against TREK's attempts at comedy--I'd hate to think
what would've been said had "A Piece of the Action" or "The Trouble
with Tribbles" premiered while this forum was in action. Me, I'm probably
biased *toward* them--I love it when everyone lightens up and has some fun
with the show.

>I just try, always, to rate them honestly, outside the
>context of my personal affection. I look at the SOS, for
>instance, and I see lots of average reviews in the 7-8 range or
>even approaching 9. To me, that may reflect affection, but not
>honest reviewing.

I guess I can't leave myself out of the equation, since a lot of my reaction
to an episode is based on how it made me feel at the time. For example,
almost everyone hated last year's "Genesis." Sure, I know the science was
terrible, and the ramifications of turning the entire crew into animals
were largely ignored. But it kept me on the edge of my couch the entire
time, and that's what I consider an effective episode. To me, the worst
thing is to be bored, to not even care how it all comes out. ("Aquiel")

>I saw Generations, I enjoyed it, had fun, will probably see
>it again. But I feel rating it a 6.0 is generous...

Well, me too, but that's another story.

>It's like with all movie reviews. If "The Godfather" is four
>stars, how on earth can "True Lies" be anything higher than one?
>Okay, different movies, different scales, but just be sure
>what scale you're using.

I quite liked TRUE LIES, but I agree with your point about separate scales.
Siskel and Ebert, for instance, tend to trash horror films for not being
THE GODFATHER, rather than rating them against members of their own genre.

One possible difference in my personal scale from that of others is that I
tend to think of it in terms of school grades: 10-9 is an "A," 8 is a "B," 7
is a "C" and so on. Thus, it takes an absolutely dreadful episode to even
drop below a rating of 5. ("Aquiel") Most TREKs have *something* in them
that saves them from that, and "Fascination" had a lot of things I liked:
snappy direction, hilarious dialogue, no technobabble and a strong "B"
story. (This from someone who wishes TREK had never discovered the "B"
story!)

That gives "Fascination" a solid grade of "B," and that's where I stand.

David Homerick

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Dec 6, 1994, 8:42:48 PM12/6/94
to
Admiral Wombat (wb1c...@picard.cc.rochester.edu) wrote:
> In <3brfao$3...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> tly...@alumni.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:

> [clip]

> >-- I do not buy for a moment that news of the Founders being Odo's people
> >has made it out far enough into the public that Lwaxana knows about it.

> Well, Lwaxana is no ordinary Jane Q. Public. She hier to the Holy Rings of
> Betazed, or something...

Do these include a +2 Ring of Narn Squeezing?

:) David Homerick cs06...@gaia.ecs.csus.edu

Dennis F. Hefferman

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Dec 7, 1994, 4:21:17 PM12/7/94
to
In <3c1t84$9...@knot.queensu.ca> 3t...@qlink.queensu.ca (Cook Thomas W) writes:

| I would like to add that this episode will likely have more *long-term
|impact* on the show than most of the dramatic episodes. Most of those

_Nothing_ has long-term impact on the show. Not even the Dominion --
everything is back to business as usual on DS9, it seems.


|shows manage to return everything to normal at the end and forget about
|it, but "Facination" fleshes out a lot of the subtler interactions
|between characters (even if many of us would rather that Kira/Bashir bit
|had never happenned) and many of these will likely appear again in one
|form or another. The plot was set decoration. No more, no less.

Don't hold your breath.

Eric West

unread,
Dec 7, 1994, 5:08:08 PM12/7/94
to

Admiral Wombat wrote:

>In <3brfao$3...@gap.cco.caltech.edu> Timothy W. Lynch writes:
>
>>WARNING: This article contains spoiler information for DS9's
>>"Fascination". Those individuals not fascinated by the idea of being
>>spoiled should back away.

>>-- I do not buy for a moment that news of the Founders being Odo's people
>>has made it out far enough into the public that Lwaxana knows about it.
>
>Well, Lwaxana is no ordinary Jane Q. Public. She hier to the Holy Rings of
>Betazed, or something...

Well, isn't she also a telepath? Or are "shapeshifters" yet another
species that Betazoids supposedly can't read? (As far as I know, it's
never been said that they can't.)

ecw
fi...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

PERRY R EIDELBUS

unread,
Dec 7, 1994, 5:55:55 PM12/7/94
to

In article <hefferma....@pegasus.montclair.edu> heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu (Dennis F. Hefferman) writes:

_Nothing_ has long-term impact on the show. Not even the Dominion --
everything is back to business as usual on DS9, it seems.

Not for Quark--he mentioned soon after the Dominion episodes that he's
losing business, since everyone's afraid of the Dominion.

Daniel Hartung

unread,
Dec 7, 1994, 9:48:40 PM12/7/94
to
Eric West <fi...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> wrote:

Ooops, lost attributions. Sorry.

>>>-- I do not buy for a moment that news of the Founders being Odo's people
>>>has made it out far enough into the public that Lwaxana knows about it.
>>
>>Well, Lwaxana is no ordinary Jane Q. Public. She hier to the Holy Rings of
>>Betazed, or something...
>
>Well, isn't she also a telepath? Or are "shapeshifters" yet another
>species that Betazoids supposedly can't read? (As far as I know, it's
>never been said that they can't.)

I think if we're to take this seriously, her status as an Ambassador should
be sufficient justification.

Daniel Hartung

unread,
Dec 7, 1994, 9:56:01 PM12/7/94
to
David Thiel <d-t...@uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>I defend your right to be generous, don't get me worng. ;-)
>>I just think there's way too much generosity in the reviews
>>around here.
>
>Really? Admittedly, the initial reviews for GENERATIONS were a lot more
>generous than I expected, but usually most of the people here do nothing
>but nitpick these shows to death over physics/genetics inaccuracies. Plus, I

Even odder, then that people rate them so highly. I mean, even Tim Lynch,
[suckup mode on] and he's great, [suckup mode off] can seem silly on
the order of "Well, they had Picard say 'Earl Grey warm' instead of
'hot', so that makes this an 8.1 instead of an 8.3."

Bottom line: I rarely see a rating below even 6, let alone 5, and that's
just grade inflation.

>feel there's a bias against TREK's attempts at comedy--I'd hate to think
>what would've been said had "A Piece of the Action" or "The Trouble
>with Tribbles" premiered while this forum was in action. Me, I'm probably
>biased *toward* them--I love it when everyone lightens up and has some fun
>with the show.

Yeah, me too. This one didn't seem to do it for me though. <g>

>time, and that's what I consider an effective episode. To me, the worst
>thing is to be bored, to not even care how it all comes out. ("Aquiel")

True. I suppose that explains a lot of the good reviews. "Well, I
wasn't bored.... guess it's a nine."

>One possible difference in my personal scale from that of others is that I
>tend to think of it in terms of school grades: 10-9 is an "A," 8 is a "B," 7
>is a "C" and so on. Thus, it takes an absolutely dreadful episode to even
>drop below a rating of 5. ("Aquiel") Most TREKs have *something* in them
>that saves them from that, and "Fascination" had a lot of things I liked:
>snappy direction, hilarious dialogue, no technobabble and a strong "B"
>story. (This from someone who wishes TREK had never discovered the "B"
>story!)
>
>That gives "Fascination" a solid grade of "B," and that's where I stand.

Well, you've convinced me to do something I didn't expect I'd do -- re-watch
the episode. ;-)

Admiral Wombat

unread,
Dec 8, 1994, 12:11:34 AM12/8/94
to

Obviously, this episode put you to sleep. She says she can't read his
thoughts later on during the show.

Dennis F. Hefferman

unread,
Dec 8, 1994, 4:19:30 PM12/8/94
to

Right -- he mentioned it. Once.

Now everything is back to normal.

DBAR...@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca

unread,
Dec 9, 1994, 3:29:03 PM12/9/94
to
In article <hefferma....@pegasus.montclair.edu>
heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu (Dennis F. Hefferman) writes:

>
>In <EIDELBUS.9...@cal.eng.utah.edu> eide...@cal.eng.utah.edu (PERRY R
>EIDELBUS) writes:
>
>|In article <hefferma....@pegasus.montclair.edu>
>heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu (Dennis F. Hefferman) writes:
>
>| _Nothing_ has long-term impact on the show. Not even the Dominion --
>| everything is back to business as usual on DS9, it seems.
>
>|Not for Quark--he mentioned soon after the Dominion episodes that he's
>|losing business, since everyone's afraid of the Dominion.
>
> Right -- he mentioned it. Once.
>
> Now everything is back to normal.
>
>--

But if they had him mentioning it every other episode the other half
of r.a.s.c. would start complaining that they're hitting us over the
head with to much. Yeesh, you can never satisfy everyone :-)






Regards,
Dave Bartlett
Coopers & Lybrand
B.C. Ferry Corporation (Local 1129)

Dawn Wintour

unread,
Dec 11, 1994, 5:16:35 PM12/11/94
to

I'm sorry Lynch, I LIKED this episode!! I seem to be one of the
only optimistic people left when it comes to DS9. When I see a bad point,
I ignore it. I ignored Barail (although I liked the acting), I ignored the
Odo/Lwaxana situation in this episode (yes, that did take away allot to
like... :) ). I LIKED the scenes with Kira/Bashir- it made sense, almost was
expected.
The only thing that knawed at me was the explanation. Good idea,
but one we've seen to many times. (I didnt like Dark Page that much)
also, WHERE DID HOMN GO??????? I miss him *snif* :)

Thats it, I said my piece. Bye!
-Dawn.

--
===========================================================
Odo: "Every 16 hours I turn into a liquid!"
Lwaxana: "I can swim." Dawn.
===========================================================

Kevin J. Karmann

unread,
Dec 12, 1994, 8:51:23 PM12/12/94
to
DBAR...@bcsc02.gov.bc.ca wrote:
: In article <hefferma....@pegasus.montclair.edu>

: heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu (Dennis F. Hefferman) writes:
:
: >
: >In <EIDELBUS.9...@cal.eng.utah.edu> eide...@cal.eng.utah.edu
: >(PERRY R : >EIDELBUS) writes:
: >
: >|In article <hefferma....@pegasus.montclair.edu>
: >heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu (Dennis F. Hefferman) writes:
: >
: >| _Nothing_ has long-term impact on the show. Not even the Dominion --
: >| everything is back to business as usual on DS9, it seems.
: >
: >|Not for Quark--he mentioned soon after the Dominion episodes that he's
: >|losing business, since everyone's afraid of the Dominion.
: >
: > Right -- he mentioned it. Once.
: >
: > Now everything is back to normal.
: >

Actually, it has been mentioned twice. Quark mentions it in "The
House of Quark" and again in (I think) "Second Skin," when he's trying
to convince Dax to spend more money while waiting for Kira.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Karmann | "It's all true." "Even the lies?"
kar...@s-cwis.unomaha.edu | "Especially the lies."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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