"Janeway was wrong" does NOT equal "Episode was bad" ("Tuvix")
schlock
It's been...what, four hours since "Tuvix" aired, and already there are
a multitude of posts complaining about the episode, saying what Janeway
did to him was wrong.
All of this fresh discussion is great--it beats the "Voyager sucks!" and
"Janeway sucks!" threads any day. I wonder, though, if people are
assuming that "Janeway was wrong" necessarily indicates "bad episode."
The questionable ethics of her decision should not have a bearing on how
good the episode was--the fact that there *were* ethics made this one
intriguing. I'm not talking about the ethics of interfering on a planet
despite the Prime Directive--I'm talking about the ethical questions at
a personal, rather than global, level that Tuvix generated.
The writers were very daring, and very smart, to take a tack on this
episode that might not meet with the high moral standards of Starfleet.
If Janeway were forced to "do the right thing" and leave Tuvix alone to
make his own decision, the only way we'd get Neelix and Tuvok back (as
we know we would; they've got contracts, after all) would likely have
been through an overblown, overly simpering scene between him and Kes,
when he realizes he will undergo the procedure...just...for...her. No
thanks. Life is rarely so sentimental. Give me a moral dilemma any
day.
No person is perfect, and Starfleet officers are people too. What
Janeway did wasn't right. She knows it; the look on her face at the end
told us that much. Thank goodness we were given the opportunity to see
that quality in her. THIS was a character show, not a technobabble
show, nor a shallow foray into character--this one went deep, and didn't
come out happy. All this from a "transporter mishap" episode.
This one was...good.
schlock
--
"Find beauty in the banal, for it is everywhere." --Bellini
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~schlock
Robert Merritt
Spoilers
It was a good show. It just happen to show how messed up Janeway is
Rob M email: rob...@jagunet.com
Game Reviews @ http://www.jagunet.com/~robertm
"If you think there is a solution, you're part of the problem"- GC
Michelle McNaught
In <4mmuce$5...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, schlock <sch...@leland.stanford.edu> writes:
>It's been...what, four hours since "Tuvix" aired, and already there are
>a multitude of posts complaining about the episode, saying what Janeway
>did to him was wrong.
>
>All of this fresh discussion is great--it beats the "Voyager sucks!" and
>"Janeway sucks!" threads any day. I wonder, though, if people are
>assuming that "Janeway was wrong" necessarily indicates "bad episode."
>The questionable ethics of her decision should not have a bearing on how
>good the episode was--the fact that there *were* ethics made this one
>intriguing.
The episode was bad. The only thing that saved it was the incredible moral
dilemma that faced Janeway. Several of the scenes were absolutely intolerable,
most involving Kes, with whom I generally have no problem. But in this
episode, epsecially with Janeway . . .
I agree, Janeway was wrong. However, I understand her decision. Very
"vulcan" of her, sacrifice the one for the greater good. Spock would have been
pleased. However, that doesn't mean I have to like it. Nonetheless, her
dealing with it saved the episode, and will have me dwelling on the morality
of her decision for some time. Just don't make me watch it again!
- Michelle
mcz...@erols.com
heff
Wait, have the Federal Guidelines for Spoiler Implementation been issued yet?
Well, if you haven't seen the Tuvix episode yet, don't read any further. And if you deliberately skipped it,
try to catch it next xhance you get; it isn't nearly as bad as we all expected.
In article <4mmuce$5...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, sch...@leland.stanford.edu says...
>
>It's been...what, four hours since "Tuvix" aired, and already there are
>a multitude of posts complaining about the episode, saying what Janeway
>did to him was wrong.
.......
>No person is perfect, and Starfleet officers are people too. What
>Janeway did wasn't right. She knows it; the look on her face at the end
>told us that much. Thank goodness we were given the opportunity to see
>that quality in her. THIS was a character show, not a technobabble
>show, nor a shallow foray into character--this one went deep, and didn't
>come out happy. All this from a "transporter mishap" episode.
I don't think that what she did was wrong, although it certainly was enormously difficult. If Tuvok had
received a whack on the head, forgot all logic, and began to lead a happy life of emotion, would it have
been wrong to offer medical help to restore his memory? I think Tuvix wasn't a new, seperate life, but just
a different mental and physical state of the two pre-existing beings. Whether he/they understood it at the
time, undoing the accident was the appropriate method of healing a bizarre medical condition.
What struck me is that the writers sort of tried to compare this to capital punishment, when in fact
abortion seems closer to the mark, a case where carrying the child would be fatal for the mother. In that
case, like on Voyager, it isn't a matter of "punishment" because no one has done anything wrong. But I
think it is even easier to justify "fixing" Tuvix than to justify most abortions.
Shawn Overton
schlock wrote:
>
> It's been...what, four hours since "Tuvix" aired, and already there are
> a multitude of posts complaining about the episode, saying what Janeway
> did to him was wrong.
>
> "Janeway sucks!" threads any day. I wonder, though, if people are
> assuming that "Janeway was wrong" necessarily indicates "bad episode."
> The questionable ethics of her decision should not have a bearing on how
> good the episode was--the fact that there *were* ethics made this one
> despite the Prime Directive--I'm talking about the ethical questions at
> a personal, rather than global, level that Tuvix generated.
>
> The writers were very daring, and very smart, to take a tack on this
> episode that might not meet with the high moral standards of Starfleet.
> If Janeway were forced to "do the right thing" and leave Tuvix alone to
> make his own decision, the only way we'd get Neelix and Tuvok back (as
> we know we would; they've got contracts, after all) would likely have
> been through an overblown, overly simpering scene between him and Kes,
> when he realizes he will undergo the procedure...just...for...her. No
> thanks. Life is rarely so sentimental. Give me a moral dilemma any
> day.
>
> Janeway did wasn't right. She knows it; the look on her face at the end
> told us that much. Thank goodness we were given the opportunity to see
> that quality in her. THIS was a character show, not a technobabble
> show, nor a shallow foray into character--this one went deep, and didn't
> come out happy. All this from a "transporter mishap" episode.
>
>
> schlock
> --
> "Find beauty in the banal, for it is everywhere." --Bellini
> http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~schlock
then separate one of then into tuvok and nelix.. you know have all
three..Dumb maby but.. moraly better than murder.
Brian and/or Amy Kerr-Jung
>>No person is perfect, and Starfleet officers are people too. What
>>Janeway did wasn't right. She knows it; the look on her face at the end
>>told us that much. Thank goodness we were given the opportunity to see
>>that quality in her. THIS was a character show, not a technobabble
>>show, nor a shallow foray into character--this one went deep, and didn't
>>come out happy. All this from a "transporter mishap" episode.
> I don't think that what she did was wrong, although it certainly was enormously difficult. If Tuvok had
>received a whack on the head, forgot all logic, and began to lead a happy life of emotion, would it have
>been wrong to offer medical help to restore his memory? I think Tuvix wasn't a new, seperate life, but just
>a different mental and physical state of the two pre-existing beings. Whether he/they understood it at the
>time, undoing the accident was the appropriate method of healing a bizarre medical condition.
> What struck me is that the writers sort of tried to compare this to capital punishment, when in fact
>abortion seems closer to the mark, a case where carrying the child would be fatal for the mother. In that
>case, like on Voyager, it isn't a matter of "punishment" because no one has done anything wrong. But I
>think it is even easier to justify "fixing" Tuvix than to justify most abortions.
I thought one of the really interesting and daring things about the
show was just how MUCH of starfleet (and general tv drama) protocal
Janeway overrode. Not only did she defy the Prime Directive, but she
ignored advice from various advisors, demonized Tuvix, and walked over
her medical officer (who, if I'm not mistaken, outranks the captain in
medical matters, though perhaps this qualifies as an ethical, not a
medical, problem).
What's more was the way the program manipulated audience sympathies.
The point of view shots as Tuvix was being persued near the end made
the crew of Voyager out to be what we all know it really is: a kind of
clan with a clan mentality out for its own interests and survival (you
can't necessarily blame them considering their predicament but they
have never been as ethical toward "other life forms" as they've
pretended they are). There have been difficult decisions to make for
captains before, but I don't think any captain's credibility has been
put into such profound question. It was a truly brave episode, and
just when we all had the sense that the Voyager writers were a bunch
of losers collecting big paychecks . . .
I too am relieved relieved that Janeway is given some dimesnion from
this episode. The
all-things-to-all-people-sexy-yet-authoritative-yet-also-a-nurturing-mother-
figure-out-to-protect-her-people-at-all-costs thing was such an
obvious attempt at fulfilling not just a single stereotype about
women, but ALL of our stereotypes simultaneously.
Anyway, I was impressed.
--brian
UW-Milwaukee
Leary
n...@csd.uwm.edu
blank
Greg Krehbiel
Yes, that Janeway is a blubbering idiot when it comes to moral
philosophy does not imply that it was a bad episode. On the contrary, I
found the episode engaging (despite that really silly scene where Kess
gets all bubbly and thankful after Janeway offers three lines of advice
-- get real!).
Since Janeway is now guilty of cold-blooded murder, perhaps Chakotay
will have to preside over her court-martial?
Greg
George Dainis
schlock wrote:
>
> It's been...what, four hours since "Tuvix" aired, and already there are
> a multitude of posts complaining about the episode, saying what Janeway
> did to him was wrong.
>
> All of this fresh discussion is great--it beats the "Voyager sucks!" and
> "Janeway sucks!" threads any day. I wonder, though, if people are
> assuming that "Janeway was wrong" necessarily indicates "bad episode."
> The writers were very daring, and very smart, to take a tack on this
> episode that might not meet with the high moral standards of Starfleet.
>
> This one was...good.
It was acceptable drama, perhaps, but it was a bad EPISODE. If Voyager was
non-continuous, with different characters and settings each week (ie: The
Twilight Zone), it would be fine. But with a massive change in character
shown across the board (Janeway, Chakotay, Paris, etc.), it did not come
close to fitting the terms of the series.
The result was arguable drama, bad sci-fi, and discontinuous episodic TV.
Jordan Greenhall
In article <4mn7bi$p...@news7.erols.com>,
mcz...@erols.com (Michelle McNaught) wrote:
>I agree, Janeway was wrong. However, I understand her decision. Very
>"vulcan" of her, sacrifice the one for the greater good. Spock would have >
>been pleased. However, that doesn't mean I have to like it. Nonetheless,
>her dealing with it saved the episode, and will have me dwelling on the
>morality of her decision for some time. Just don't make me watch it again!
>
Don't tell me that Spock would have forced another sentient being to kill
himself. It is logical to sacrifice _yourself_ for the good of the many -- it
is not logical to force someone else to kill himself.
I'm reminded of an episode of TNG where Data mutinied against Riker by taking
control of the Enterprise to prevent Number One from sending some robots
called "exo-comps" to their involuntary deaths. Riker wanted to exchange the
exo-comps 'lives' for the lives of the Captain and Geordi, but Data (another
individual known for his logic) thought that this exchange was wholly
indefensibe and chose to mutiny rather than allow it to continue. He was
willing to sacrifice his own life to save the captain (the starfleet way) but
not the lives of the exo-comps. Moreover, Data's presumption that the
exo-comps were living beings was just a hypothesis -- it wasn't even clear
that they were alive (unlike Tuvix) and he was still willing to disobey orders
inorder to protect them.
<In another note someone said,>
> I don't think that what she did was wrong, although it certainly was
>enormously difficult. If Tuvok had received a whack on the head, forgot all
>logic, and began to lead a happy life of emotion, would it have been wrong to
>offer medical help to restore his memory?
An interesting characterization of the problem. Too bad the writers didn't
have the guts to put the debate in the episode.
But, to make the analogy close, the medical help to restore his 'character'
would have to simultaneously destroy his memories up to the point of the
accident. Also, it wouldn't have been wrong to "offer" medical help, but it
might have been wrong to impose it against his will. What if the 'happy'
Tuvok liked being the way he was? What if he didnt want to go back and was
just as good (if not better) at doing his old job in his new condition? Does
Janeway's longing for the 'old' Tuvok justify destroying his new incarnation?
>I think Tuvix wasn't a new, seperate life, but just a different mental and
>physical state of the two pre-existing beings. Whether he/they understood it
>at the time, undoing the accident was the appropriate method of healing a
>bizarre medical condition.
Hmmm. This is troublesome. What sorts of things can you justify by using the
label 'bizarre' medical condition? I'm reminded of the medical barbarity of
the 18th - 20th century against women in the name of hysteria -- a 'bizarre'
medical condition. Recall that the doctor (presumably the most capable of
making medical diagnoses) refused to do the procedure. I think that the
problem might rest in the central premise that _you_ don't think that Tuvix
wasn't a new, separate life form. Perhaps, but when someone (something?)
shows a belief in its own existence and a desire to preserve that existence,
shouldn't the disposition of that existence be left up to them? Asserting for
yourself a higher awareness ("whether he/they understood it at the time") than
the phenomenon involved establishes a dangerous precedent and puts too little
value on individual self-determination. (Of course, it was just a T.V. show
and I am not really addressing this at -you- but at a hypothetical character
within the show that made your argument.) Besides, if Tuvix was "just a
different mental and physical state of the two pre-existing beings," by what
right do we change that state against his/their will? Janeway asserted the
right to speak on behalf of Tuvok and Neelix, but what gives her this right?
Isn't Tuvix -- Tuvok + Neelix? Perhaps Tuvix shouln't be allowed to judge in
his own case over a dispute with Tuvok and Neelix, but then again, maybe here
there was no dispute and Tuvix actually was all three. (Or if you like, was
just a merging of Tuvok and Neelix.)
Now, addressing the writers, I have to admit that some of the discussions
brought up by the episode have been quite good. But my problem is that _none_
of this was in the episode -- you had to go to the Usenet to find it. The
episode treated it as a difficult, but obvious choice. And, remember, NONE of
the crewmembers rose to speak in Tuvix's defense.
Ed Faith
heff wrote:
> I don't think that what she did was wrong, although it certainly was enormously difficult. If Tuvok had
> received a whack on the head, forgot all logic, and began to lead a happy life of emotion, would it have
> been wrong to offer medical help to restore his memory? I think Tuvix wasn't a new, seperate life, but just
> a different mental and physical state of the two pre-existing beings. Whether he/they understood it at the
> time, undoing the accident was the appropriate method of healing a bizarre medical condition.
Problem is, this argument wasn't given. I'm left with the impression
that Janeway simply wanted her old buddies back more than she wanted
to keep this relative stranger. Like Kess. Her failure to present
a good argument for the separation is key.
Timothy Burke
In article <4mmuce$5...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, schlock
<sch...@leland.stanford.edu> wrote:
> It's been...what, four hours since "Tuvix" aired, and already there are
> a multitude of posts complaining about the episode, saying what Janeway
> did to him was wrong.
>
> All of this fresh discussion is great--it beats the "Voyager sucks!" and
> "Janeway sucks!" threads any day. I wonder, though, if people are
> assuming that "Janeway was wrong" necessarily indicates "bad episode."
> The questionable ethics of her decision should not have a bearing on how
> good the episode was--the fact that there *were* ethics made this one
> intriguing. I'm not talking about the ethics of interfering on a planet
> despite the Prime Directive--I'm talking about the ethical questions at
> a personal, rather than global, level that Tuvix generated.
>
I very much agree. I think this was one of Voyager's better episodes
precisely because the writers (unusually) did not take the easy way out
and have Tuvix end up agreeing to his own destruction. If the writers
could apply this level of dramatic daring to the series premise as a
whole, then Voyager would be a consistent winner.
Aside from that, I'm not so much sure that Janeway *was* wrong. Neither
Tuvok nor Neelix agreed to give up their lives for Tuvix, after all. The
lives which exist first should have precedence.
A good episode.
C.K.W. Wyllie
In article <4mneck$j...@ionews.ionet.net>, heff <heff...@ionet.net> wrote:
>
>been wrong to offer medical help to restore his memory? I think Tuvix
>wasn't a new, seperate life, but just a different mental and physical
>state of the two pre-existing beings. Whether he/they understood it at the
>time, undoing the accident was the appropriate method of healing a
>bizarre medical condition.
I think he _was_ a seperate life. He only had some memories of
Neelix and Tuvok, and _inherited_ their traits. Remember how he answered
Kess' medical questions about his thought processes? Not two minds
talking to one another, not two concious minds. Imagine you are who you
are today, but you have the _memories_ of your parents. Would it be
ethical/moral/legal to eradicate you in a transporter to pull out the
genes of your parents and reconstruct them? I would do it (I think, he
says offhandedly) but should I be forced to?
Considering my viewpoint about Tuvix's status as a seperate
being, I find no connection to abortion at all. I don't think it even
comes close to 'fixing' a medical condition.
-Craig
--
==============================================================================
(Kess) They're natural born explorers. (Neelix) They're natural born idiots!
Craig Wyllie Hamilton, Ont. Canada g932...@mcmail.mcmaster.ca
Joe
schlock <sch...@leland.stanford.edu> wrote:
>I wonder, though, if people are
>assuming that "Janeway was wrong" necessarily indicates "bad episode."
No, but "Janeway became a cold-blooded murderer" does necesarily
indicate that the show as a whole is ruined (unless they get rid of
Janeway, which is now there only option). She violated not only the
most fundamental Federation principles but the fundamental principles
of civilized life, even by 20th century standards. There's no way I
can have any respect for her now, I sure wouldn't want to be a member
of her crew ... wondering if I'm the next one she'll murder to save
two others.
>This one was...good.
Well, if you consider character assasination (which is what the
writers did to Janeway) "good" I guess so.
Joe
Joe
tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu (Timothy Burke) wrote:
>Aside from that, I'm not so much sure that Janeway *was* wrong. Neither
>Tuvok nor Neelix agreed to give up their lives for Tuvix, after all. The
>lives which exist first should have precedence.
They're starfleet officers who were lost in the line of duty.
"Precedence" my ass. They were already gone, and Janeway saw fit to
murder an innocent bystander to get them back. So is Janeway's
court-martial going to be right away or will they wait until they're
back on Earth?
Joe
Joe
Greg Krehbiel <Greg_K...@thompson.com> wrote:
>Since Janeway is now guilty of cold-blooded murder, perhaps Chakotay
>will have to preside over her court-martial?
That's what really burns me ... not that the captain just made a
barbaric decision, but the crew just stood around and let her. Who's
going to try them?
Joe
Joe
Rjh...@law.harvard.edu (Jordan Greenhall) wrote:
>Now, addressing the writers, I have to admit that some of the discussions
>brought up by the episode have been quite good. But my problem is that _none_
>of this was in the episode -- you had to go to the Usenet to find it. The
>episode treated it as a difficult, but obvious choice. And, remember, NONE of
>the crewmembers rose to speak in Tuvix's defense.
This is what really disturbs me - I've not only lost all respect for
Janeway but for the rest of the crew as well. As you pointed out, in
the Federation it has been well-established that you cannot kill an
innocent to protect one (or more than one) of your own.
You know, if Gene Roddenbery was alive and still involved, there's NO
WAY this Voyager show would have aired. Gene believe in the priniples
he created for the Federation, and would never have allowed the
writers to violate that tradition and make a cold-blooded murderer out
of a starship captain. I guess this is what pisses me off more than
anything - this episode violated the most basic Star Trek/Federation
principle, the respect for life, all life. And the refusal to put your
own life on a higher value than someone elses.
Joe
Joe
Shawn Overton <sove...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>HERe is astupid idea.. Like in STTNG, copy tuvix, like riker got copied.
>then separate one of then into tuvok and nelix.. you know have all
>three..Dumb maby but.. moraly better than murder.
Yup, even a "dumb" ending would have been better than the Janeway
character assasination.
Which reminds me, what was that stupid crack Janeway made about "this
being the first incident like this in the Federation?". Hello, ever
heard of the starship Enterprise and Captain Kirk (The Enemy Within)?
Or the Enterprise-2 and the 2-Riker episode you mentioned?
Actually I had a whole post of such minor nits about this episode ...
but in light of Janeway becoming a murderer they seemed to trivial to
post.
Joe
Junsok Yang
In article <4mo1cp$d...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca
says...
>Greg Krehbiel <Greg_K...@thompson.com> wrote:
Actually, this would be my biggest complaint, not the ending itself; that
not *one* member of the bridge crew was consulted or made their objections
felt. They just stood there mute. Granted, once the captain has made her
decision, they have no choice but to accept it, but *when she was making up
her mind,* other officers could have made their feelings known, pro or con.
It would not have broken discipline or anything, but it would have made the
Voyager crew look less like a bunch of cowards. The real meat of the show
was this dilemma; they should have de-emphasized somewhat all the cute
things Tuvik was doing, and spent some more time on the feelings and the
conflicts of emotion of the crew.
The only members of the crew who made their feelings known was Kes and the
Doctor. Kes, at least has a decent reason for wanting Neelix back. Given
that the only other crewmember who objected was the Doctor (and he's not
even human!) his character went up a notch in my book. Even though I like
DS9 better than VOY, the Doctor is rapidly becoming my favorite Trek
character of the two shows.
--
****************************************************************
"The idea seems to be that if people refuse to obey the
equations we have fit to their past behavior, we can pass laws to
make them do so." ... Robert Lucas & Thomas Sargent
Junsok Yang (yan...@yalevm.cis.yale.edu)
Joe
mcz...@erols.com (Michelle McNaught) wrote:
>I agree, Janeway was wrong. However, I understand her decision. Very
>"vulcan" of her, sacrifice the one for the greater good. Spock would have been
>pleased.
What a crock - Spock (nor any other Vulcan) would ever dream of the
kind of cold-blooded murder Janeway did in this show. Unlike Janeway
(and, apparently, the rest of the Voyager crew) Vulcans have respect
for life.
I really hope Janeway does leave next week, it's is the only hope of
saving this show - I certainly will never again be able to respect or
like Janeway (and I used to be a big Janeway fan until this).
Joe
Joe
n...@csd.uwm.edu (Brian and/or Amy Kerr-Jung) wrote:
>I too am relieved relieved that Janeway is given some dimesnion from
>this episode. The
>all-things-to-all-people-sexy-yet-authoritative-yet-also-a-nurturing-mother-
>figure-out-to-protect-her-people-at-all-costs thing was such an
>obvious attempt at fulfilling not just a single stereotype about
>women, but ALL of our stereotypes simultaneously.
Yeah, she's got dimension all right - just like Charlie Manson or any
other cold-blooded murderer.
Joe
spock@vulcan
Couldn' there have been a much simpler resolution in 2 steps?
1) Seperate Tuvix back into Tuvok and Neelix first
2) Then ask THEM, the 2 lifeforms merged without their knowledge or
consent in a transporter ACCIDENT, if they WANT to be re-merged into
Tuvix.
Spock
John Soo-Hoo
In article <4mneck$j...@ionews.ionet.net> heff...@ionet.net (heff) writes:
>
> What struck me is that the writers sort of tried to compare this to capital punishment, when in fact
>abortion seems closer to the mark, a case where carrying the child would be fatal for the mother. In that
Funny I felt the same way. In fact it seemed rather poetic if you look at
it this way.
Tuvoc & Neelix (The fetus... silent unheard voice)
Tuvix (the choice of the parent)
Where did you get the capital punishment angle? It seemed move obvious (to me)
that issues of abortion seemed to apply here.
John
Timothy Burke
In article <4mo1jl$d...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca
(Joe) wrote:
No, they weren't lost. That's the whole point: they were still alive, but
essentially held hostage. We've seen many times that one of Starfleet's
major rules is that if you can rescue a Starfleet crew member, you do so,
including with the use of appropriate force.
Otherwise, one would have to consider that the crewmembers of the
Enterprise were equally wrong to board the Borg vessel and kill Borg
crewmembers in order to rescue Picard. He too was "lost", right? A
Starfleet admiral even officially considered him lost. Tuvix may have been
a nice guy, but his existence effectively held two individuals in
captivity. A wrenching dilemma, but I think Janeway made a valid decision.
Dave Miller
Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) typed:
>Greg Krehbiel <Greg_K...@thompson.com> wrote:
>>Since Janeway is now guilty of cold-blooded murder, perhaps Chakotay
>>will have to preside over her court-martial?
>That's what really burns me ... not that the captain just made a
>barbaric decision, but the crew just stood around and let her. Who's
>going to try them?
What would be really interesting would be to see members of the crew
overcompensate for their guilt in this incident by becoming more
rebellious against controversial (though much less controversial than
the splitting of Tuvix, of course) orders from Janeway.
Of course, that would mean showing consequences, and that's a big
no-no for VOYAGER. Bah.
Dave Miller
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"You never know when some crazed rodent with cold feet might
be running loose in your pants." -Calvin
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
williams tracy
: >Aside from that, I'm not so much sure that Janeway *was* wrong. Neither
: >Tuvok nor Neelix agreed to give up their lives for Tuvix, after all. The
: >lives which exist first should have precedence.
: They're starfleet officers who were lost in the line of duty.
: "Precedence" my ass. They were already gone, and Janeway saw fit to
: murder an innocent bystander to get them back. So is Janeway's
: court-martial going to be right away or will they wait until they're
: back on Earth?
Damn straight, my brother. tburke1, try "the lives which exist,
PERIOD, should have precedence. Joe is exactly right.
However, getting back to the original post of this thread, I
must agree- the fact that Janeway was wrong to the point of being nearly
evil doesn't mean the episode sucked. In fact, I'd be willing to call it
the best of the series solely on the strength of the last 15 minutes.
-tlw
--
TracyWilliams|ManWithTheFluid.SigFile|IndieRockerOrWannabeGoth?|YouDecide!
MyBloodyValentine|Cure|Spinanes|Lois|ToriAmos|BlackTapeforABlueGirl|Lisa
Gerrard|FlamingLips|BuiltToSpill|MaryLouLord|ThePixies|thatdog.|Catherine
Wheel|SoulCoughing|Bjork|andManyMore|"when you wake you're still in a dream"
Arthur Levesque
Greg Krehbiel (Greg_K...@thompson.com) wrote:
GK>Yes, that Janeway is a blubbering idiot when it comes to moral
GK>philosophy does not imply that it was a bad episode.
One of the reasons I and so many people dislike Voyager is because
it is about lost ship with a crew of incompetents led by a captain who
should never, ever have been given command of a starship. Things like
this make me wonder even more what the hell Starfleet (and Paramount)
were thinking...
GK>Since Janeway is now guilty of cold-blooded murder, perhaps Chakotay
GK>will have to preside over her court-martial?
Not bloody likely, considering the fact that no one in the Star
Trek universe has to face the consequences of their actions, and that
the crew (and fans) of the Voyager continue to worship Janeway as a
perfect superwoman who can do no wrong.
Michelle McNaught (mcz...@erols.com) wrote:
MM>Very "vulcan" of her, sacrifice the one for the greater good.
MM>Spock would have been pleased.
The only reason they recombined Kirk (technically destroying two
Kirks to re-create the original) was because the two halves couldn't
survive apart. Will and Tom Riker could survive apart, so there was no
need to recombine them...
Joe (Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca) added:
JM>That's what really burns me ... not that the captain just made a
JM>barbaric decision, but the crew just stood around and let her.
JM>Who's going to try them?
The crew should have removed her from command a long time ago.
If they don't, they deserve her.
Junsok Yang (yan...@yalevm.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
JY>Granted, once the captain has made her decision, they have no choice
JY>but to accept it, but *when she was making up her mind,* other
JY>officers could have made their feelings known, pro or con.
No, Starfleet officers have the right; nay, the DUTY to disobey
immoral or illegal orders.
Shawn Overton (sove...@ix.netcom.com) suggested:
SO>Here is astupid idea.. Like in STTNG, copy tuvix, like riker got
SO>copied. then separate one of then into tuvok and nelix.. you know
SO>have all three..Dumb maby but.. moraly better than murder.
Murder is still murder, even if you make an archival back-up of
the victim first. Or don't you think it would be murder if someone
killed Will or Tom Riker in cold blood, as long as they left the other
intact?
Jordan Greenhall (Rjh...@law.harvard.edu) wrote:
JG>Don't tell me that Spock would have forced another sentient being
JG>to kill himself.
Especially because that being was "different" from what he/they
used to be, or different from what others wanted him/them to be...
What ever happened to IDIC?
JG>Now, addressing the writers, I have to admit that some of the
JG>discussions brought up by the episode have been quite good. But my
JG>problem is that _none_ of this was in the episode -- you had to go
JG>to the Usenet to find it. The episode treated it as a difficult,
JG>but obvious choice.
Of course. The writers regularly leave gaping holes in the
stories, which Usenetters try to find ways to fill... The problems
of Ocampan reproduction being a prime example.
JG>And, remember, NONE of the crewmembers rose to speak in Tuvix's
JG>defense.
What? Disagree with Super-Captain?
Timothy Burke (tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu) wrote:
TB>I think this was one of Voyager's better episodes precisely because
TB>the writers (unusually) did not take the easy way out and have Tuvix
TB>end up agreeing to his own destruction.
No, instead they had the dictatorial captain impose her will and
commit murder, with nary a protest from the subjects in the crew. Oh,
yeah, brilliant episode; let's have her introduce torture and capital
punishment for any other crewmembers she disagrees with.
TB>If the writers could apply this level of dramatic daring to the
TB>series premise as a whole, then Voyager would be a consistent
TB>winner.
(Derisive snort)
Brian Kerr-Jung (n...@csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
BKJ>I thought one of the really interesting and daring things about the
BKJ>show was just how MUCH of starfleet (and general tv drama) protocal
BKJ>Janeway overrode. Not only did she defy the Prime Directive, but
BKJ>she ignored advice from various advisors, demonized Tuvix, and
BKJ>walked over her medical officer (who, if I'm not mistaken, outranks
BKJ>the captain in medical matters...
Since when do Voyager writers care about canon or consistency?
Don't be surprised if the writers add lines for Neelix and Tuvok
in a future episode thanking Janeway for separating them, in an attempt
to add ex-post-facto justification and restore her I'm-always-right
image...
--
/\ Arthur Levesque, baks...@nicom.com <*> Cthulhu matata!
\B\ack King of the Potato People =/\= Unconventional Conventionist
\S\lash "That man confuses me. Kill him." -Zorgon the Malevolent
\/ http://www.nicom.com/~bakslash/index.html [fnord]
Louis Sivo
schlock (sch...@leland.stanford.edu) wrote:
: It's been...what, four hours since "Tuvix" aired, and already there are
: a multitude of posts complaining about the episode, saying what Janeway
: did to him was wrong.
: All of this fresh discussion is great--it beats the "Voyager sucks!" and
: "Janeway sucks!" threads any day. I wonder, though, if people are
: assuming that "Janeway was wrong" necessarily indicates "bad episode."
: The questionable ethics of her decision should not have a bearing on how
: good the episode was--the fact that there *were* ethics made this one
: intriguing. I'm not talking about the ethics of interfering on a planet
: despite the Prime Directive--I'm talking about the ethical questions at
: a personal, rather than global, level that Tuvix generated.
: The writers were very daring, and very smart, to take a tack on this
: episode that might not meet with the high moral standards of Starfleet.
: If Janeway were forced to "do the right thing" and leave Tuvix alone to
: make his own decision, the only way we'd get Neelix and Tuvok back (as
: we know we would; they've got contracts, after all) would likely have
: been through an overblown, overly simpering scene between him and Kes,
: when he realizes he will undergo the procedure...just...for...her. No
: thanks. Life is rarely so sentimental. Give me a moral dilemma any
: day.
Absolutely! I really thought they were going to cheat at the end to make
it simple and leave us viewers with a nice warm "ahhh, everything turned
out alright and no one was hurt" feeling.
I thought Tuvix would end up being an "evil" alien, or that they would figure
out how to seperate him out (can you say "store him in the holodeck").
Good point about the other possibility, "overly simpering scene...."
: No person is perfect, and Starfleet officers are people too. What
: Janeway did wasn't right. She knows it; the look on her face at the end
: told us that much. Thank goodness we were given the opportunity to see
: that quality in her. THIS was a character show, not a technobabble
: show, nor a shallow foray into character--this one went deep, and didn't
: come out happy. All this from a "transporter mishap" episode.
: This one was...good.
I agree!!!
: schlock
: --
: "Find beauty in the banal, for it is everywhere." --Bellini
: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~schlock
--
Louis Sivo
lou...@nafohq.hp.com
Nelson Lu
In article <4mnp08$p...@decaxp.HARVARD.EDU>,
Jordan Greenhall <Rjh...@law.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Don't tell me that Spock would have forced another sentient being to kill
>himself. It is logical to sacrifice _yourself_ for the good of the many -- it
>is not logical to force someone else to kill himself.
>
>I'm reminded of an episode of TNG where Data mutinied against Riker by taking
>control of the Enterprise to prevent Number One from sending some robots
>called "exo-comps" to their involuntary deaths. Riker wanted to exchange the
>exo-comps 'lives' for the lives of the Captain and Geordi, but Data (another
>individual known for his logic) thought that this exchange was wholly
>indefensibe and chose to mutiny rather than allow it to continue. He was
Remember another episode in which (the episode in which Troi took her bridge
officer's exam) where it was shown that a captain must at times be willing to
*order* people to go to their deaths. While in the simulated accident Troi
wouldn't be killing LaForge herself, her actions and orders would nevertheless
force LaForge to die.
Charles Owen
heff wrote:
>
> Wait, have the Federal Guidelines for Spoiler Implementation been issued yet?
>
> Well, if you haven't seen the Tuvix episode yet, don't read any further. And if you deliberately skipped it,
> try to catch it next xhance you get; it isn't nearly as bad as we all expected.
>
> In article <4mmuce$5...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, sch...@leland.stanford.edu says...
> >
> >It's been...what, four hours since "Tuvix" aired, and already there are
> >a multitude of posts complaining about the episode, saying what Janeway
> >did to him was wrong.
> .......
Who cares. It was totally predictable. My 11 year old daughter
was watching the show and about a third of the way through said
"he's not going to want to change back, but Jayneway will make him".
This was the most predictable episode of Voyager ever. Let's see a
show of hands: how many felt they would leave Tuvix on the show?
That's what I thought. Heck, they didn't even leave the chance it
might not work? They didn't even have an issue of the doctor's
non-participation jeapordizing the procedure.
The big problem was that this episode was exceedingly BORING! I
almost turned it off out of sheer frustration. It was speech after
speech after speech. The writers were trying to show off how well
they can merge two character's attributes, but it was too obvious
for me. And, some of the speeches were so melodramatic as to make
me naseous. Did anyone else expect to hear Tuvix finish that one
speech with "If you prick me, do I not leak?"
No, this was not in the same class with Threshold and the 37's
(can anything else be?), but it was really really bad.
--
Charles B. Owen
L. Gay Palmero
Timothy Burke wrote:
> No, they weren't lost. That's the whole point: they were still alive, but
> essentially held hostage. We've seen many times that one of Starfleet's
> major rules is that if you can rescue a Starfleet crew member, you do so,
> including with the use of appropriate force.
>
> Otherwise, one would have to consider that the crewmembers of the
> Enterprise were equally wrong to board the Borg vessel and kill Borg
> crewmembers in order to rescue Picard. He too was "lost", right? A
> Starfleet admiral even officially considered him lost. Tuvix may have been
> a nice guy, but his existence effectively held two individuals in
> captivity. A wrenching dilemma, but I think Janeway made a valid decision.
I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix, if we're going to call this
murder, just as splitting him would end in his "murder."
That said, I'll add one more thing. I find it very disturbing to read
people saying that Tuvok and Neelix had no rights because they were
"lost." If they were lost, they therefore become victims. And isn't
that a flaw in our own justice system, that we seldom ever hear the
voice of the victims? Tuvok and Neelix were valuable additions to the
crew. At the very least, they had the right to be heard, and since
there was no one to speak for them, then Janeway certainly was correct
to consider their rights. I don't think it is possible to say that a
murder victim no longer has rights because his life has been brutally
cut short. He has the right to justice just the same. He has the right
to be heard, even though his voice his silent. Tuvok and Neelix had
the same rights. They were not on a hazardous mission, they were not
expecting trouble at all, and while Tuvix may not have been their
murderer, to allow him to live at their expense would have ended in
murder, just the same. The question then becomes, is she going to be
guilty of one murder or two? I think she made the right choice. I
think it was a tough, but very gutsy choice to make, and I respect her
more now than I ever did before.
--
L. Gay Palmero
g...@texas.net
Pretender
Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) wrote:
>Rjh...@law.harvard.edu (Jordan Greenhall) wrote:
>
>
>>Now, addressing the writers, I have to admit that some of the discussions
>>brought up by the episode have been quite good. But my problem is that _none_
>>of this was in the episode -- you had to go to the Usenet to find it. The
>>episode treated it as a difficult, but obvious choice. And, remember, NONE of
>>the crewmembers rose to speak in Tuvix's defense.
>
>Janeway but for the rest of the crew as well. As you pointed out, in
>the Federation it has been well-established that you cannot kill an
>innocent to protect one (or more than one) of your own.
For all intents and purposes, Tuvix was a Starfleet officer. And a captain can
order a Starfleet officer to die for others. For example (although, not a
great one), the TNG episode where Troi is taking her Commander's test. One of
the tests had her order Holo-Geordi to save the ship by fixing something in the
ship that would have surely killed him.
Grant G.
Junsok Yang
In article <4moeei$7...@news2.cais.com>, baks...@nicom.com says...
>Junsok Yang (yan...@yalevm.cis.yale.edu) wrote:
>JY>Granted, once the captain has made her decision, they have no choice
>JY>but to accept it, but *when she was making up her mind,* other
>JY>officers could have made their feelings known, pro or con.
> No, Starfleet officers have the right; nay, the DUTY to disobey
>immoral or illegal orders.
Well, I had an argument in this vein while discussing "The Die is Cast"
and "Homefront." The upshot of that discussion was that I had to accept
that Starfleet was a *military* organization, which would mean that the
subordinates would have to follow the superior's decision as long as it was
lawful. Of course, since Starfleet isn't exactly the US military, there
would be some leeway such as moral objections, especially if the ship was
not under emergency conditions. Then I expect the officer to do what the
Doctor did and refuse to participate; but note that the Doctor did not
actively tried to stop the captain; just register his moral objection and
refuse to participate.
Now, if Starfleet is *not* a military organization; and/or if what Janeway
did was *clearly* illegal (which cannot be fully conceded here because of
the dual nature of Tuvik) then, of course, such "mutinous" behavior can be
allowed for; but I'm not sure if I want to go through the entire argument of
whether Starfleet was a military organization yet again.
Crash
> Now, addressing the writers, I have to admit that some of the discussions
> brought up by the episode have been quite good. But my problem is that
_none_
> of this was in the episode -- you had to go to the Usenet to find it. The
> episode treated it as a difficult, but obvious choice. And, remember,
NONE of
> the crewmembers rose to speak in Tuvix's defense.
Good fiction makes one think beyond the material presented. I think this
episode did that.
Archie Cutter
"Time keeps everything from happening at once.
-- Buckaroo Banzai"
heff
In article <4mnp08$p...@decaxp.HARVARD.EDU>,
Rjh...@law.harvard.edu says...
>>I think Tuvix wasn't a new, seperate life, but just a different mental
and
>>physical state of the two pre-existing beings. Whether he/they
understood it
>>at the time, undoing the accident was the appropriate method of
healing a
>>bizarre medical condition.
>
>Hmmm. This is troublesome. What sorts of things can you justify by
using the
>label 'bizarre' medical condition? I'm reminded of the medical barbarity
of
>the 18th - 20th century against women in the name of hysteria -- a
'bizarre'
>medical condition. Recall that the doctor (presumably the most
capable of
>making medical diagnoses) refused to do the procedure.
He didn't seem to have any problem with how the procedure would
affect Tuvix until the very end. I'd've liked to hear how he would justify
refusing treatment to Tuvok and Neelix if the problem were again
presented to him in that light (not that he couldn't have come to the
same conclusion). It would also have been interesting to hear someone
(Chakotay?) toss in the issue of possible "souls" in terms of what
happened to the two seperate guys and if the new guy had his own, or
was running on the other two's batteries.
As a captain looking after her crew, Janeway did have the right,
and responsibility, to speak for the two men who had already had their
state changed against their wills.
I did miss some of the first half of the episode--how clearly was it
established that anything would actually die, instead of Tuvix's life
continuing in the two bodies in which it had begun? All I saw was that
he compared seperation to capital punishment, and from that moment
on, everyone assumed that he was being truly killed, rather than just
changed in the reverse direction of an earlier change.
Joe
twi...@umbc.edu (williams tracy) wrote:
> However, getting back to the original post of this thread, I
>must agree- the fact that Janeway was wrong to the point of being nearly
>evil doesn't mean the episode sucked.
For any other show, this might be true - for Star Trek, I disagree.
Gene Roddenbery must be rolling in his grave. A starship captain
violated the most fundamental principles of the Federation (and
civilization) by showing so little regard for life. If there is a
single lesson in all of TOS, TNG and even DS9, it is that sentient
life, *all* sentient life, is sacred. No captain or other person can
make arbitrary judgements saying that one life is worth less than two
others.
Flushing everything Gene believed in down the toilet is controversial,
it may even be very dramatic - but the one thing it most defintely is
*not* is good Star Trek.
Joe
Joe
ddmi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (Dave Miller) wrote:
>What would be really interesting would be to see members of the crew
>overcompensate for their guilt in this incident by becoming more
>rebellious against controversial (though much less controversial than
>the splitting of Tuvix, of course) orders from Janeway.
I agree, Dave, the only way for the writers to get out of the hole
they've dug for themselves is to follow it up in a future episode (in
which it would be made perfectly clear that Janeway made a serious
mistake). Like you though, I won't be holding my breath.
Joe
Joe
spock@vulcan wrote:
There are many ways the show could have been resolved without
resorting to brutal murder.
Joe
heff
In article <4mnvdr$6...@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>,
g932...@mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA says...
>
>In article <4mneck$j...@ionews.ionet.net>, heff <heff...@ionet.net> wrote:
>>
>>been wrong to offer medical help to restore his memory? I think Tuvix
>>state of the two pre-existing beings. Whether he/they understood it at the
>>time, undoing the accident was the appropriate method of healing a
>>bizarre medical condition.
>
>Neelix and Tuvok, and _inherited_ their traits. Remember how he answered
>Kess' medical questions about his thought processes? Not two minds
>talking to one another, not two concious minds. Imagine you are who you
>are today, but you have the _memories_ of your parents. Would it be
>ethical/moral/legal to eradicate you in a transporter to pull out the
>genes of your parents and reconstruct them? I would do it (I think, he
>says offhandedly) but should I be forced to?
My parents' bodies were not unwillingly sacrificed to produce me, so I don't
think that would be the same choice. Tuvix was the living tissue of two beings
artificially bonded into one chunk. Any life he had was the continuing existence
of the two men, and later they seperated that life back into the two organisms it
came from. Tuvix, understandably, looked on it as dying, when it was closer to a
change in brain structure and viewpoint, as had been his creation.
I was terribly disappointed in Janeway a while back when she refused to take
Neelix's lungs back from the Vidian (sp?) who had stolen them. I would have
been just as disappointed if she had refused to correct this.
>Craig Wyllie Hamilton, Ont. Canada g932...@mcmail.mcmaster.ca
Joe
baks...@nicom.com (Arthur Levesque) wrote:
> Don't be surprised if the writers add lines for Neelix and Tuvok
>in a future episode thanking Janeway for separating them, in an attempt
>to add ex-post-facto justification and restore her I'm-always-right
>image...
It'll be too late for me. I used be one of the one's who liked
Janeway, but not anymore.
Joe
Al Ruffinelli
> > No, they weren't lost. That's the whole point: they were still alive, but
> > essentially held hostage. We've seen many times that one of Starfleet's
they *were* lost as individuals.
> > major rules is that if you can rescue a Starfleet crew member, you do so,
> > including with the use of appropriate force.
not if that implies killing innocent bystanders.
> > Otherwise, one would have to consider that the crewmembers of the
> > Enterprise were equally wrong to board the Borg vessel and kill Borg
> > crewmembers in order to rescue Picard. He too was "lost", right? A
> > Starfleet admiral even officially considered him lost. Tuvix may have been
> > a nice guy, but his existence effectively held two individuals in
> > captivity. A wrenching dilemma, but I think Janeway made a valid decision.
there was no dilemma at all! you can't compare this to the borg. tuvix
did not "hold tuvok and neelix hostage" consciously, it was the result of an
accident. fu**ing big difference there!
> I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
> several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
> she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
> ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix, if we're going to call this
> murder, just as splitting him would end in his "murder."
not splitting tuvix would have meant accepting the loss of tuvok and
neelix as individuals as an accident, in the line of duty, and accepting
tuvix as the individual he was.
> That said, I'll add one more thing. I find it very disturbing to read
> people saying that Tuvok and Neelix had no rights because they were
> "lost." If they were lost, they therefore become victims. And isn't
> that a flaw in our own justice system, that we seldom ever hear the
> voice of the victims? Tuvok and Neelix were valuable additions to the
> crew. At the very least, they had the right to be heard, and since
> there was no one to speak for them, then Janeway certainly was correct
> to consider their rights. I don't think it is possible to say that a
> murder victim no longer has rights because his life has been brutally
> cut short. He has the right to justice just the same. He has the right
> to be heard, even though his voice his silent. Tuvok and Neelix had
> the same rights. They were not on a hazardous mission, they were not
> expecting trouble at all, and while Tuvix may not have been their
> murderer, to allow him to live at their expense would have ended in
> murder, just the same. The question then becomes, is she going to be
> guilty of one murder or two? I think she made the right choice. I
> think it was a tough, but very gutsy choice to make, and I respect her
> more now than I ever did before.
> --
> L. Gay Palmero
> g...@texas.net
nonsense. you can't justify killing someone to get two individuals back
(who were not dead). it was plain selfish and immoral.
picard saved a *hologram* when it became self-aware ('Elementary, Mr. Data').
janeway could have waited until they had the technology to bring tuvok
and neelix back without killing tuvix (hey, we've seen a lot worse
pseudo-science). in any case, nothing justified her killing tuvix.
------------------------------------------------------------
Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net>
http://www.netgate.net/~alvaro
ftp://ng.netgate.net/u/alvaro
------------------------------------------------------------
Joe
n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) wrote:
>Remember another episode in which (the episode in which Troi took her bridge
>officer's exam) where it was shown that a captain must at times be willing to
>*order* people to go to their deaths. While in the simulated accident Troi
>wouldn't be killing LaForge herself, her actions and orders would nevertheless
>force LaForge to die.
It's not the same situation at all. Firstly, there is no immediate
"life or death" situation Janeway is presented with. She'd waited
weeks already for a "solution" - why not wait a bit longer, and see if
there's a way to revive the two crew members without killing a third?
Secondly, LaForge is perfectly free to decline such orders if he is
willing to resign from Star Fleet to do it. Tuvix wasn't ordered to
kill himself, he was taken under armed gaurd and executed. Big
difference.
Joe
Al Ruffinelli
On 7 May 1996 16:24:30 GMT, tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu wrote:
[snip]
> I very much agree. I think this was one of Voyager's better episodes
> precisely because the writers (unusually) did not take the easy way out
> and have Tuvix end up agreeing to his own destruction. If the writers
> could apply this level of dramatic daring to the series premise as a
> whole, then Voyager would be a consistent winner.
nonsense. when "doing something unusual" means doing something so WRONG,
it's NOT a good episode. what's next? starfleet executing babies?
> Aside from that, I'm not so much sure that Janeway *was* wrong. Neither
> Tuvok nor Neelix agreed to give up their lives for Tuvix, after all. The
tuvok and neelix were lost as individuals in an ACCIDENT. killing tuvix
was no accident.
> lives which exist first should have precedence.
> A good episode.
that statement alone is as immoral as janeway's decision. you're either
morally blind or a monster.
Joe
"L. Gay Palmero" <g...@texas.net> wrote:
>I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
>several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
>she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
>ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix, if we're going to call this
>murder, just as splitting him would end in his "murder."
Nonsense, you can't murder someone who's already been lost. Their
lives *were* lost in a transporter accident, there's no denying that.
Niether Janeway nor anyone else can be held responsible for that, it
was a freak accident. Tuvix, on the other hand, she had to murder in
cold blood.
> and I respect her
>more now than I ever did before.
I used to respect her a lot, but I never will have one iota of respect
for her again.
Joe
Joe
Pretender <ggor...@ny.wgl.com> wrote:
>For all intents and purposes, Tuvix was a Starfleet officer. And a captain can
>order a Starfleet officer to die for others.
But that's not what she did. A starfleet officer under such orders is
perfectly free to decline them by resigning from star fleet. Tuvix did
not have that option, nor was he ordered to do anything - he was taken
under armed gaurd and executed.
Joe
Joe
heff...@ionet.net (heff) wrote:
> I did miss some of the first half of the episode--how clearly was it
>established that anything would actually die, instead of Tuvix's life
>continuing in the two bodies in which it had begun? All I saw was that
>he compared seperation to capital punishment, and from that moment
>on, everyone assumed that he was being truly killed, rather than just
>changed in the reverse direction of an earlier change.
It was made quite clear (under medical questioning) that Tuvix was a
unique, physically and psychologically healthy individual, and that
there were not two seperate individuals withing him. He was killed all
right.
Joe
Dave Miller
"L. Gay Palmero" <g...@texas.net> typed:
>I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
>several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
>she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
>ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix,
Well, not really. In a very real way, Tuvok and Neelix were already
dead.
The best analogy I've seen for the situation is that it is like
performing a human sacrifice to bring two friends back to life.
>That said, I'll add one more thing. I find it very disturbing to read
>people saying that Tuvok and Neelix had no rights because they were
>"lost." If they were lost, they therefore become victims. And isn't
>that a flaw in our own justice system, that we seldom ever hear the
>voice of the victims? Tuvok and Neelix were valuable additions to the
>crew. At the very least, they had the right to be heard, and since
>there was no one to speak for them, then Janeway certainly was correct
>to consider their rights. I don't think it is possible to say that a
>murder victim no longer has rights because his life has been brutally
>cut short. He has the right to justice just the same. He has the right
>to be heard, even though his voice his silent. Tuvok and Neelix had
>the same rights. They were not on a hazardous mission, they were not
>expecting trouble at all, and while Tuvix may not have been their
>murderer, to allow him to live at their expense would have ended in
>murder, just the same.
The analogy fails because, as you said, Tuvix was not their murderer.
He is in no way responsible for what happened to them. Perhaps it
would be noble for him to sacrifice himself for their good, but that's
his decision to make, not Janeway's. Very simply, Tuvok and Neelix
were the victims of an accident, not a crime, so the "justice" analogy
just doesn't work.
Janeway's decision is particularly incomprehensible when you consider
how she handled Neelix's stolen lungs. In that case, your analogy is
much more on the mark. Neelix is the victim of a crime, and deserves
justice. It seems to me that if Janeway had been portrayed in that
episode like she was in this episode, she would have said to the
Vidiaan: "Tough. You don't get to live at an innocent man's expense.
Now, prepare for surgery or I'll have Tuvok yank the lungs out through
your throat." That would have been a far more justified action than
what she did to Tuvix. The only conclusion that I can come to is that
she was scared of the consequences of pissing off the Vidians, who
seem to be a formidable power in the Delta Quadrant. Unfortunately,
Tuvix didn't have an entire planetary military force to back him up.
> The question then becomes, is she going to be
>guilty of one murder or two?
Mmm. I still think the question becomes: is she going to be guilty of
one murder, or is she going to accept the fact that Neelix and Tuvok
were accidentally killed in the line of duty? She acted selfishly.
Period.
Janeways is overdue for a mutiny. Not a single traitor, or even two
or three. I mean, a sizable fraction of the crew should be getting
pretty pissed off. I'd also like to see signs that the bridge crew is
pretty ashamed of not standing up and doing the right thing. I think
a little overcompensation in the future for their cowardly refusal to
stand up to Janeway in this instance would be an extremely logical
development.
Hmm.... I smell a good fan-fic piece here ....
Treker L
schlock <sch...@leland.stanford.edu> wrote:
>This one was...good.
I agree. And thats odd for a transporter accident. Although I don't
think what Janeway did was wrong. Two people had to die to let 1
person live(tuvix). Janeway had a chance to save 2 people for the
price of one. Although the conditions were less then ideal and it
became Janeways decision I think she made the right one. I would have
done it.
If tuvix had simply a victom of the phage (sp?) and had stolen organs
from them. Or even had them implanted in him unknowingly woudn't you
have wanted Janeway to ask for them back? (I had this same problem
with Capt J. when this did happen. When someone steals something for
whatever reason. you ask for it back!)
But the real question is this : If 3 species were combined Vulcan,
Neelix,and that flower, Why did from then on people talk about
seperating ~TWO~ species? When the 2 of them were seperated I would
have liked to see the flowers left over.
</\> Treker L =/\=
James Grady Ward
In article <4mo19e$d...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>Shawn Overton <sove...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>HERe is astupid idea.. Like in STTNG, copy tuvix, like riker got copied.
>>then separate one of then into tuvok and nelix.. you know have all
>>three..Dumb maby but.. moraly better than murder.
>
>Yup, even a "dumb" ending would have been better than the Janeway
>character assasination.
>
>Which reminds me, what was that stupid crack Janeway made about "this
>being the first incident like this in the Federation?". Hello, ever
>heard of the starship Enterprise and Captain Kirk (The Enemy Within)?
>Or the Enterprise-2 and the 2-Riker episode you mentioned?
>
well i dont recall an episode where people got joined together
before. a few with them being split yes, but not joined.
--
buckysan: the phantom teaching fellow
annapuma and unapumma in 96'
" the realization that the pursuit of knowledge can be an
end unto itself is the beginning and highest form of wisdom"
James Grady Ward
In article <4mnnsh$p...@uwm.edu>, n...@csd.uwm.edu (Brian and/or Amy Kerr-Jung) writes:
>I thought one of the really interesting and daring things about the
>show was just how MUCH of starfleet (and general tv drama) protocal
>Janeway overrode. Not only did she defy the Prime Directive, but she
>ignored advice from various advisors, demonized Tuvix, and walked over
>her medical officer (who, if I'm not mistaken, outranks the captain in
>medical matters, though perhaps this qualifies as an ethical, not a
>medical, problem).
>
if i remember protocol right it is still her ship unless the doctor
or crew can prove she is unfit for command. i think that is really
the only place in which a medical officer outranks a captain, with the
rare excpetion of a medical officer that has a real command rank. of course
by trandition any medical personal ( military or otherwise) have
authority in a medical situation. since this is not really a crisis
type thing i highly doubt that the doctor could really have tried
to use that idea on the captain. also there are several times
where kirk has ordered bones to wake people up that bones thought
might be harmed by the sitmulants and he rarely objected until
it was obvious that the person could not take anymore. i was impressed
that janeway didnt just turn the doctor off when he objected, if they
were really tring to make this look like an evil decission that is what
i would have had done. and i am still tring to see how he could claim
that he was tring to "do no harm" by not seperating them, since it would
mean the effective death of two peopl if he didnt.
btw just how did janeway break the prime directive, since it applies
to races outside of the federation last time i checked.
James Grady Ward
In article <318F36...@ix.netcom.com>, Shawn Overton <sove...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>HERe is astupid idea.. Like in STTNG, copy tuvix, like riker got copied.
>then separate one of then into tuvok and nelix.. you know have all
>three..Dumb maby but.. moraly better than murder.
interesting point, murder of who?
let tuvix live and both tuvok and neelix die.
seperate tuvix and only tuvix dies.
seems like you kill someone either way
Jim Beasley
I agree the episode was excellent. Good drama, good acting,...
The problem is that the solution goes against everything previously set
forth in Star Trek. The way the decision was made and I mean without
discussion, the way the solution was carried, and no one on the ship
stood in her way. Things don't fit and that is the problem.
A good moral dilemma is a good thing and the episode started out great,
but the ending didn't feel right.
As far as Janeway knowing she did the wrong thing, I don't believe that
or she wouldn't have done it. That look is I made a hard decision and
she is unsure possibly because there isn't a right answer. There is a
wrong answer and she made it and carried it out.
She was shown herself to be strong. She destroyed the caretaker's array
and ended her chance of getting home (I'm not sure this didn't violate
the prime directive, but that is another discussion). In this, she is
weak and let her emotions guide her decision.
Jim
--
Jim Beasley bea...@berthaw.princeton.edu
Dept. of Chemistry http://www.princeton.edu/~beasley/
Princeton University
Princeton, NJ 08544
ApplCinamn
>>Essentially, Tuvix got his life because he got his body from Tuvok and
Neelix.
Who's to say that he should have the right to hold onto the body when, by
holding onto that body, he's denying Tuvok and Neelix the rights of having
their bodies?<<
Look at it from Tuvix's point of view. If it were you, would you have gone
quietly to your death? Wouldn't you have questions about why you had to be
executed when the situation that brought you there was not of your making
in the first place? Frankly, given Vulcan strength and Neelix's apparent
strength (remember he held his own against Jonas), I was surprised they
didn' t write it as Tuvix overpowering the two guards and running through
the ship's corridors.
S. A. Buday
Wow. The line of demarcation has been drawn! Janeway supporters to the
right, bashers to the left...*SHEESH*
Okay, here's how I see it:
Reasons for keeping Tuvix... Two bad things that go *great* together! I
hate to say it, it was an aesthetic choice for me. I can stand niether
Tuvok nor Neelix. Tuvix, however, was amazingly tolerable. Though I did
find the doctors line of Tuvix possessing the annoying traits of both
individuals to be rather hilarious.
BUT, morally, I have to say that Janeway was not in the wrong...or
right. Her decision was just that, a decision. I find it laughable that
the Janeway bashers present her as one that killed Tuvix without a second
thought...she obviously agonized over what she had to do. She acted.
That was the powerful point of the show. She made a choice that she was
going to have to live with. And for those of you that have lost respect
for Janeway, what about the *entire* crew who *let* her do it? They
could have stopped her at any time. I was actually a bit shocked that
Chakotay didn't intervine. In fact, many of the officers seemed rather
miffed that Tuvix hadn't gladly handed over his life!
Was it murder? I don't know. He definately was an entirely new entity,
just as Trill hosts and symbiots become a new person once joined. But it
can be argued that she could have been guilty of killing Tuvok and
Neelix had she not killed Tuvix (And I prefer to use the word "kill"
since there was no intention or malice that would qualify murder). It
has been argued that they were "lost"... but that's VERY thin and up for
more interpritations than the bible. They weren't lost, they were in
reach once the doctor and Kim figured out how to reverse the effects.
Those who lost respect for Janeway, as well as those who found her chose
to be the only correct solution, seem to forget that there were TWO
sides of the matter that in the end equaled: Rock & Hard Place
She didn't just flip a coin, she deliberated...she made a choice, she
acted on that choice. It was a POWERFUL story. As old Oscar Wilde once
said, "There is no such think as a moral or immoral book (story). Books
are well written, or badly written. That is all." This, was well written.
What it boils down to, is that the line between right and wrong, good and
evil, yadda yadda, yadda... was erased. Star Trek once again has
challanged the morality of the culture and has suceeded in stiring up a
hornets nest. God I love the Trek universe! It's too bad that some
people let the point fly over thier heads in favor of pontificating.
It's sad, really...
On Tue, 7 May 1996, Treker L wrote:
> But the real question is this : If 3 species were combined Vulcan,
> Neelix,and that flower, Why did from then on people talk about
> seperating ~TWO~ species? When the 2 of them were seperated I would
> have liked to see the flowers left over.
>
> </\> Treker L =/\=
Hey, YEAH! What *about* the orchid! Ya plant hating heathens!
WOOF!
,-~~-.___.
/ | ' \
( ) 0 Stephanie A. Buday
\_/-, ,----' Youngstown * State * University
==== // Dept. of Philosophy and Religious Studies
/ \-'~; /~~~(O) Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology
/ __/~| / |
=( _____| (_________| s016...@cc.ysu.edu OR bh...@yfn.ysu.edu
--
"I order you to destroy the universe!"
"Uh, okay. I'll miss my music box tho'...and you know...the rest of the stuff."
Evil the Cat commands the Unnamed Beast "Rosebud" --Earthworm Jim
ApplCinamn
>>Tuvix may have been a nice guy, but his existence effectively held two
individuals in captivity. A wrenching dilemma, but I think Janeway made a
valid decision.<<
The question remains: was it really her decision to make? Personally, if
Tuvix had to be a one-show deal, then I would have preferred an ending
where, after careful contemplation, Tuvix came to the decision on his own
instead of literally being strongarmed and made to be a "dead man
walking." The ending had a very barbaric overtone to it that left a bad
taste.
Marguerite Petersen
In article <4mo2c7$e...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>
>You know, if Gene Roddenbery was alive and still involved, there's NO
>WAY this Voyager show would have aired. Gene believe in the priniples
>he created for the Federation, and would never have allowed the
>writers to violate that tradition and make a cold-blooded murderer out
>of a starship captain. I guess this is what pisses me off more than
>anything - this episode violated the most basic Star Trek/Federation
>principle, the respect for life, all life. And the refusal to put your
>own life on a higher value than someone elses.
>
>Joe
>
Uh, excuse me. Are you now privy to what went on in Roddenberry's
mind? How can you possibly *know* what he would have though about
this episode. He has been dead for a while, you know. Or are you
somehow *channeling* his thoughts to us?
I most certainly think that Janeway DID put a respect for life
ahead of *personal* feelings in this situation; the lives of
BOTH TUVOK and NEELIX. You know, the original life beings who
were being essentially "taken over" by another lifeform. Of
course, if you personally despise the characters of Neelix and
TUvok in the first place *and* also liked the new character
better, it would explain your attitude. (And others'.)
Marg
--
Member PSEB Official Sonneteer JLP SoL
Charter Member WISE WOMEN OF THE WEB
pet...@peak.org http://www.orst.edu/~peterseb/marg.html
MT
I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but as I was
watching the episode, I was thinking that it was the
*orchid's* DNA that was speaking out when Tuvix said
that he didn't want to die. Janeway told Tuvix that
she knew that both Tuvok and Neelix would've given
their life for another, so Tuvix's unwillingness to
sacrifice himself had to be coming from a third
party's perspective ... the orchid ... which has
a will of its own to live and which was also combined
into the DNA of Tuvix (at least that's what the
Doctor stated).
My thinking was that Janeway realized it was the
orchid's speaking, rather than Tuvok/Neelix,
and that sacrificing a flower was worth getting
Tuvok/Neelix back. I actually was expecting her
to say something like that at the end of the episode.
Just my $0.02 worth.
MT
Aleph Press
Joe (Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote:
: tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu (Timothy Burke) wrote:
: >Aside from that, I'm not so much sure that Janeway *was* wrong. Neither
: >Tuvok nor Neelix agreed to give up their lives for Tuvix, after all. The
: >lives which exist first should have precedence.
: They're starfleet officers who were lost in the line of duty.
: "Precedence" my ass. They were already gone, and Janeway saw fit to
: murder an innocent bystander to get them back. So is Janeway's
: court-martial going to be right away or will they wait until they're
: back on Earth?
I disagree. Tuvix had joined the crew, and was wearing a Starfleet
uniform. A captain has the right to ask one person to sacrifice their
lives for more than one. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the
one."
I am not sure the decision was the *right* one. But to characterize
Janeway as a cold-blooded murderer is to say that any military officer
who orders his men into a situation where they will certainly die in
order to protect a larger number is also a cold-blooded murderer.
Perhaps Tuvix did have the right to live. I think he did. But didn't
Tuvok and Neelix *also* have the right to live? Their personalities were
destroyed in the creation of the Tuvix gestalt. If Tuvix is a separate
indivudual with rights, then his existence was the murder of Tuvok and
Neelix. If Tuvok and Neelix continued to exist in some form inside
Tuvix, then Tuvix wasn't a separate individual with th right to live and
destroying him was simply correcting a medical condition suffered by
Tuvok and Neelix. You can't have it both ways.
What Janeway was left with, when you boiled it down, was a single
equation: one man who can speak vs. two that cannot. Or, viewed from
another perspective, one man with very little life history vs. two men
that have families, loved ones, and long histories. Either way, on
Tuvix's side there is one man, and on Tuvok and neelix's side there are
two. And the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
--
The 1990's will be remembered historically as the decade when the
Russians gained freedom of speech and the Americans lost theirs.
-- Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@netcom.com
Fight the Communications Decency Act! Preserve free speech on the net!
Check out http://www.aclu.org for links and info.
John Soo-Hoo
In article <4mo1jl$d...@fountain.mindlink.net> Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu (Timothy Burke) wrote:
>
>>Aside from that, I'm not so much sure that Janeway *was* wrong. Neither
>>Tuvok nor Neelix agreed to give up their lives for Tuvix, after all. The
>>lives which exist first should have precedence.
>
>They're starfleet officers who were lost in the line of duty.
>"Precedence" my ass. They were already gone, and Janeway saw fit to
>murder an innocent bystander to get them back. So is Janeway's
>court-martial going to be right away or will they wait until they're
>back on Earth?
Sorry, but only one of them was a true StarFleet Officer (Tuvoc). Neelix
is not an officer. He is a civilian acting as a liason/cook for Voyager, hence
Neelix has no StarFleet uniform.
I would argue that the Tuvix had no rights to the genetic material since it
wasn't his to begin with. They belonged to Neelix and Tuvoc. Sure Tuvix
should have had rights, but what about Neelix and Tuvoc? When did they
die? Tuvix was a creation of an accident. Sure it was probably murder to
get the two crewmembers back.
Now that Tuvoc and Neelix are back, they're voices can be heard. If they
were willing to sacrifice themselves to become Tuvix, certianly they would
have made this known... Since we wouldn't be seeing Tuvix anymore... I guess
it is safe to say that at least one of thier answers would be no. :)
seh...@outer-net.com
In <4mo1vf$d...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>mcz...@erols.com (Michelle McNaught) wrote:
>
>
>>I agree, Janeway was wrong. However, I understand her decision. Very
>>"vulcan" of her, sacrifice the one for the greater good. Spock would have been
>>pleased.
>
>What a crock - Spock (nor any other Vulcan) would ever dream of the
>kind of cold-blooded murder Janeway did in this show. Unlike Janeway
>(and, apparently, the rest of the Voyager crew) Vulcans have respect
>for life.
>
>I really hope Janeway does leave next week, it's is the only hope of
>saving this show - I certainly will never again be able to respect or
>like Janeway (and I used to be a big Janeway fan until this).
>
>Joe
>
How was this cold-blooded murder? If Tuvix was not separarted back into Tuvok
and Neelix, would that not also be murder? On one side, we have people who say
Janeway murdered Tuvix, and if she did not, we would have people saying she murdered
Tuvok and Neelix. And yes, I believe a Vulcan would do the same thing. Remember
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one? Tuvix was one, Neelix and Tuvok
are two.
-MKS
williams tracy
: > No, they weren't lost. That's the whole point: they were still alive, but
: > essentially held hostage. We've seen many times that one of Starfleet's
: > major rules is that if you can rescue a Starfleet crew member, you do so,
: > including with the use of appropriate force.
: >
: > Otherwise, one would have to consider that the crewmembers of the
: > Enterprise were equally wrong to board the Borg vessel and kill Borg
: > crewmembers in order to rescue Picard. He too was "lost", right? A
: > Starfleet admiral even officially considered him lost. Tuvix may have been
: > a nice guy, but his existence effectively held two individuals in
: > captivity. A wrenching dilemma, but I think Janeway made a valid decision.
You are forgetting, of course, that Riker undertook the rescue mission
not *just* to save the captain, but also to gain an advantage over the Borg.
Remember, the Borg *were* getting ready to turn Earth into a big crater, and
the Federation was at war. Comparing this to Tuvix's situation just doesn't
fit.
: I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
: several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
: she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
: ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix, if we're going to call this
: murder, just as splitting him would end in his "murder."
No, no, no! Murder requires you to take an active step. The fusing
of Tuvok and Neelix was a twist of fate. The seperation of Tuvix was murder.
Big difference.
: That said, I'll add one more thing. I find it very disturbing to read
: people saying that Tuvok and Neelix had no rights because they were
: "lost." If they were lost, they therefore become victims. And isn't
: that a flaw in our own justice system, that we seldom ever hear the
: voice of the victims? Tuvok and Neelix were valuable additions to the
: crew. At the very least, they had the right to be heard, and since
: there was no one to speak for them, then Janeway certainly was correct
: to consider their rights.
Why do people keep saying this? Tuvix wasn't a completely new
personality; he was a 50/50 split between Tuvok and Neelix. If both or
either one of them had truly desired to be seperated, this should have
been apparent in Tuvix's behavior, actions, and words. Maybe it's just me,
but I didn't see a single moment of ambiguity when Janeway told him that
she was going to order him to undergo seperation. He was NOT happy.
: murder victim no longer has rights because his life has been brutally
: cut short. He has the right to justice just the same. He has the right
: to be heard, even though his voice his silent. Tuvok and Neelix had
: the same rights. They were not on a hazardous mission,
Whoa, whoa, stop right there. Are you trying to tell me that officers
don't realize that being on a starship means that really wacked shit is going
to happen to you? Being on Voyager is a hazardous mission, period, and even
if Neelix didn't know that upon first boarding, he certainly knew it by this
episode.
: While Tuvix may not have been their
: murderer, to allow him to live at their expense would have ended in
: murder, just the same. The question then becomes, is she going to be
: guilty of one murder or two? I think she made the right choice. I
: think it was a tough, but very gutsy choice to make, and I respect her
: more now than I ever did before.
Somebody suggested this example to illustrate why that makes zero
sense: let's say the Kazon kidnap Tuvok and Neelix and say they will kill
them both unless Janeway murders, say, Hogan. Hogan, although a reasonably
honorable guy, has no desire to die and refuses to sacrifice himself. Now,
assuming the Kazon aren't going to pull a fast one, Janeway is morally
obliged to off Hogan to get Tuvok and Neelix back, right? After all, Tuvok
and Neelix didn't ask to be kidnapped, and two lives will be saved, and
bla bla bla... to quote an extremely unfortunate man, "Doesn't anybody see
that this is wrong?"
-tlw
--
TracyWilliams|ManWithTheFluid.SigFile|IndieRockerOrWannabeGoth?|YouDecide!
MyBloodyValentine|Cure|Spinanes|Lois|ToriAmos|BlackTapeforABlueGirl|Lisa
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Wheel|SoulCoughing|Bjork|andManyMore|"when you wake you're still in a dream"
Bryan Derksen
Timothy Burke (tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu) wrote:
: I very much agree. I think this was one of Voyager's better episodes
: precisely because the writers (unusually) did not take the easy way out
: and have Tuvix end up agreeing to his own destruction. If the writers
: could apply this level of dramatic daring to the series premise as a
: whole, then Voyager would be a consistent winner.
Definitely. Now let's cross our fingers and hope that the impact of this
episode on the characters will be remembered by future writers :)
: Aside from that, I'm not so much sure that Janeway *was* wrong. Neither
: Tuvok nor Neelix agreed to give up their lives for Tuvix, after all. The
: lives which exist first should have precedence.
I think that the lives which *exist* should have precedence; Tuvix was
alive, and Tuvok and Nelix were not. Mince definitions if you will, but if
you manage to define Tuvok and Nelix as being still somehow 'alive' then
the whole justification for separating Tuvix in the first place goes out
the window. They were dead, and Tuvix simply had the bad luck to have been
created in the reversable accident that killed them. He wasn't somehow
'holding them hostage', any more than I'm holding a heart attack patient
hostage by refusing to donate my own heart for transplant.
--
Bryan Derksen <bder...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>, Technomage-in-training
http://www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/ (PGP key available)
"Just once, I'd like to meet an alien menace that WASN'T immune to
bullets." - Brigadier A.G. Lethbridge-Stewart, "Dr. Who"
Bryan Derksen
Pretender (ggor...@ny.wgl.com) wrote:
: Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) wrote:
: >This is what really disturbs me - I've not only lost all respect for
: >Janeway but for the rest of the crew as well. As you pointed out, in
: >the Federation it has been well-established that you cannot kill an
: >innocent to protect one (or more than one) of your own.
: For all intents and purposes, Tuvix was a Starfleet officer. And a
: captain can order a Starfleet officer to die for others. For example
: (although, not a great one), the TNG episode where Troi is taking her
: Commander's test. One of the tests had her order Holo-Geordi to save
: the ship by fixing something in the ship that would have surely killed
: him.
Even assuming that Tuvix could be considered a Starfleet officer (remeber
that Neelix is *not*), then a Starfleet officer that has been ordered to
his death can at the very least choose to resign and refuse to obey.
SimGeordi was just being noble and Vulcan-like in his decision to
sacrifice himself.
Evidence: When Data was ordered to go along with Maddox's experiments, he
resigned rather than obey because he felt his life was in danger. Only
after this did Maddox resort to trying to establish that Data was
Starfleet *property*, and therefore couldn't resign.
I don't think Janeway could make the case that Tuvix was starfleet
property.
Junsok Yang
In article <4mol9v$l...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca
says...
>kill himself, he was taken under armed gaurd and executed. Big
>difference.
One minor point. If the ship was under emergency (as in the "simulated
accident") then LaForge would have had to follow orders even if it meant his
death. That's part of what he signed up for. He may be free to decline the
order and his commission under normal circumstances, but under an emergency
where other lives are at stake, he would probably be forced to follow fatal
orders.
--
****************************************************************
"The idea seems to be that if people refuse to obey the
equations we have fit to their past behavior, we can pass laws to
make them do so." ... Robert Lucas & Thomas Sargent
Junsok Yang (yan...@yalevm.cis.yale.edu)
Bryan Derksen
: > No, they weren't lost. That's the whole point: they were still alive, but
: > essentially held hostage. We've seen many times that one of Starfleet's
: > major rules is that if you can rescue a Starfleet crew member, you do so,
: > including with the use of appropriate force.
: >
: > Otherwise, one would have to consider that the crewmembers of the
: > Enterprise were equally wrong to board the Borg vessel and kill Borg
: > crewmembers in order to rescue Picard. He too was "lost", right? A
: > Starfleet admiral even officially considered him lost. Tuvix may have been
: > a nice guy, but his existence effectively held two individuals in
: > captivity. A wrenching dilemma, but I think Janeway made a valid decision.
: I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
: several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
: she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
: ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix, if we're going to call this
: murder, just as splitting him would end in his "murder."
To quote Picard: "They were already dead. I mean, what more could have
happened to them?"
My opinion is that Tuvok and Neelix died in a transporter accident at the
beginning of the show, and that Tuvix wasn't 'holding them hostage' any
more than I'm currently holding a heart attack patient hostage by refusing
to donate my organs to him.
And if Tuvok and Neelix *weren't* dead after the accident, but rather just
in another state of mind or somesuch, then the decision to separate Tuvix
becomes even more unsupportable. In that case, there isn't actually anyone
who needs 'saving'.
: That said, I'll add one more thing. I find it very disturbing to read
: people saying that Tuvok and Neelix had no rights because they were
: "lost." If they were lost, they therefore become victims. And isn't
: that a flaw in our own justice system, that we seldom ever hear the
: voice of the victims?
I don't deny that Tuvok and Neelix were victims. But why bring the justice
system into this? They were victims of an *accident*, not anyone's
malicious intent. Tuvix didn't cause the accident, he was just the result.
: Tuvok and Neelix were valuable additions to the
: crew. At the very least, they had the right to be heard, and since
: there was no one to speak for them, then Janeway certainly was correct
: to consider their rights. I don't think it is possible to say that a
: murder victim no longer has rights because his life has been brutally
: cut short.
I would say he no longer has rights because he's *dead*. At least, I don't
think the rights of the dead should take precedence over the rights of the
living.
: He has the right to justice just the same. He has the right
: to be heard, even though his voice his silent. Tuvok and Neelix had
: the same rights. They were not on a hazardous mission, they were not
: expecting trouble at all, and while Tuvix may not have been their
: murderer, to allow him to live at their expense would have ended in
: murder, just the same. The question then becomes, is she going to be
: guilty of one murder or two?
I don't see how Janeway could be held responsible for the deaths of Tuvok
and Neelix; the event which killed them was a transporter *accident*.
Accidents happen.
If there are two people who are dying of (say) cystic fibrosis, and I
*don't* remove your lungs to transplant and save them, did I just commit
two murders? If you run away instead, did you?
: I think she made the right choice. I
: think it was a tough, but very gutsy choice to make, and I respect her
: more now than I ever did before.
I gained a lot of respect for the doctor. Always witty, and now a moral
bulwark too :)
Micheal Keane
In article <4mo1fq$d...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>>obvious attempt at fulfilling not just a single stereotype about
>>women, but ALL of our stereotypes simultaneously.
>
>Yeah, she's got dimension all right - just like Charlie Manson or any
>other cold-blooded murderer.
Janeway did the right thing. I thought it was extremely selfish for Tuvix
to basically murder Tuvok and Neelix when a method of saving them was
available. Tuvok and Neelix never asked to be merged, and Tuvix was NOT
speaking for them either since he was a completely new personality.
Also, another good paralell someone brought up was from Troi's test to
become commander... in order to pass, she had to send the holographic
Geordi to his death in order to save the lives of the crew... exact same
principle.
--
Micheal Keane(ae...@u.washington.edu)
Get the Nowhere Man FAQ at my webpage: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia
HE'S BACK AND IT'S ABOUT TIME -- WATCH DOCTOR WHO ON FOX MAY 14TH!
E-Mail me if you want to know more about the brand new two-hour movie.
Nelson Lu
In article <4mol9v$l...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) wrote:
>
>>Remember another episode in which (the episode in which Troi took her bridge
>>officer's exam) where it was shown that a captain must at times be willing to
>>*order* people to go to their deaths. While in the simulated accident Troi
>>wouldn't be killing LaForge herself, her actions and orders would nevertheless
>>force LaForge to die.
>
>It's not the same situation at all. Firstly, there is no immediate
>"life or death" situation Janeway is presented with. She'd waited
>weeks already for a "solution" - why not wait a bit longer, and see if
>there's a way to revive the two crew members without killing a third?
>
>Secondly, LaForge is perfectly free to decline such orders if he is
>willing to resign from Star Fleet to do it. Tuvix wasn't ordered to
>kill himself, he was taken under armed gaurd and executed. Big
>difference.
Uh, if you want to bring up the possibility of resignation, Tuvix could have
resigned as well, and Janeway would have been left with a bigger dilemma, but
she probably would not have split him had he resigned.
Nelson Lu
In article <4momqn$2...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>It was made quite clear (under medical questioning) that Tuvix was a
>unique, physically and psychologically healthy individual, and that
>there were not two seperate individuals withing him. He was killed all
>right.
If he is distinct from Tuvok and Neelix, then Tuvok and Neelix are also
distinct from him. Who's to say that their lives (which could be restored) are
less valuable than his and to be accorded less protection?
Nelson Lu
In article <4moqu5$f...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
Bryan Derksen <bder...@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>created in the reversable accident that killed them. He wasn't somehow
>'holding them hostage', any more than I'm holding a heart attack patient
>hostage by refusing to donate my own heart for transplant.
The Tuvix situation is not analogous to this. A more appropriate analogy would
be:
You needed a heart. You got a heart transplant, but immediately it was noticed
that the original diagnosis of death for the donor was in error, and that he
can be revived if the heart is given back to him. (Assuming, for the sake of
argument, that such a medical procedure were possible, since in our Tuvix
scenario the procedure is indeed possible.)
Essentially, you were not the donor's "murderer" in any sense since you had no
knowledge that he was actually not dead. However, if you hold onto the heart,
you would essentially be responsible for his death.
Nelson Lu
In article <4mom2h$2...@fountain.mindlink.net>,
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>"L. Gay Palmero" <g...@texas.net> wrote:
>
>>I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
>>several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
>>she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
>>ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix, if we're going to call this
>>murder, just as splitting him would end in his "murder."
>
First, Tuvok and Neelix are not "already lost." They could easily be
retrieved.
Second, even if they were already lost, not retrieving them would still be
tantamount to murder, assuming you consider splitting Tuvix murder (which you
apparently do). If Janeway had decided the other way, essentially, they would
be not living because of Janeway's decision. I don't see how that's different
from murder.
James Grady Ward
In article <4moicv$t...@ionews.ionet.net>, heff...@ionet.net (heff) writes:
>
> He didn't seem to have any problem with how the procedure would
>affect Tuvix until the very end. I'd've liked to hear how he would justify
>refusing treatment to Tuvok and Neelix if the problem were again
>presented to him in that light (not that he couldn't have come to the
>same conclusion). It would also have been interesting to hear someone
>(Chakotay?) toss in the issue of possible "souls" in terms of what
>happened to the two seperate guys and if the new guy had his own, or
>was running on the other two's batteries.
>
actually if i remember right tuvix made some comment about having
the will to live of two peopl. not quite souls, but the same idea
James Grady Ward
In article <4moklf$l...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>For any other show, this might be true - for Star Trek, I disagree.
>Gene Roddenbery must be rolling in his grave. A starship captain
>violated the most fundamental principles of the Federation (and
>civilization) by showing so little regard for life. If there is a
>single lesson in all of TOS, TNG and even DS9, it is that sentient
>life, *all* sentient life, is sacred. No captain or other person can
>make arbitrary judgements saying that one life is worth less than two
>others.
>
question: how do you place the life of one sentient being over the
life of two sentient beings?
this is exactly the kind of questions that roddenbery hoped to get
people asking and thinking about with trek. this was never meant to
be a show about entertaining the masses, it was meant to reach into
the moral plane and get people thinking. which i might add this episode
has succeded in that which few of tng's and ds9's episodes have.
>Flushing everything Gene believed in down the toilet is controversial,
>it may even be very dramatic - but the one thing it most defintely is
>*not* is good Star Trek.
Dave Miller
ae...@u.washington.edu (Micheal Keane) typed:
>Janeway did the right thing. I thought it was extremely selfish for Tuvix
>to basically murder Tuvok and Neelix when a method of saving them was
>available.
Yeah, and all it would cost Tuvix is his _life_.
If not being willing to die in order to resurrect two dead people is
selfish, then color me selfish.
I'm reminded of a Monty Python sketch about liver donars being
"relieved" of their livers before they're done with them. I'll tell
you what. I'll send someone around to your place to collect both of
your kidneys. After all, those kidneys could very well save two
lives. Don't be selfish, now. Hand 'em over!
>Tuvok and Neelix never asked to be merged, and Tuvix was NOT
>speaking for them either since he was a completely new personality.
Tuvok and Neelix were killed in an unfortunate accident. Too bad.
But you don't kill somebody against their will to resurrect two dead
people.
Dave Miller
>Also, another good paralell someone brought up was from Troi's test to
>become commander... in order to pass, she had to send the holographic
>Geordi to his death in order to save the lives of the crew... exact same
>principle.
>--
>Micheal Keane(ae...@u.washington.edu)
>Get the Nowhere Man FAQ at my webpage: http://weber.u.washington.edu/~aexia
>HE'S BACK AND IT'S ABOUT TIME -- WATCH DOCTOR WHO ON FOX MAY 14TH!
>E-Mail me if you want to know more about the brand new two-hour movie.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"You never know when some crazed rodent with cold feet might
be running loose in your pants." -Calvin
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
James Grady Ward
a question for those of you who say that since tuvix did not want
to be returned to his original state they should have left him as
tuvix.
in the tng episode where the ship's crew was de-evolved, i do not
recall picard or data ever even stoping to think if anyone on the
crew would like to stay in their current form. one or two just
might have, how do we know.
so was it right for data to just decide almost on his own to forcably
make them back into what they were, with no consideration of their
opinion in the matter?
Junsok Yang
In article <4morr3$f...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, bder...@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca
says...
>Pretender (ggor...@ny.wgl.com) wrote:
>: For all intents and purposes, Tuvix was a Starfleet officer. And a
>: captain can order a Starfleet officer to die for others. For example
>: (although, not a great one), the TNG episode where Troi is taking her
>: Commander's test. One of the tests had her order Holo-Geordi to save
>: the ship by fixing something in the ship that would have surely killed
>: him.
>Even assuming that Tuvix could be considered a Starfleet officer (remeber
>that Neelix is *not*), then a Starfleet officer that has been ordered to
>his death can at the very least choose to resign and refuse to obey.
>SimGeordi was just being noble and Vulcan-like in his decision to
>sacrifice himself.
>Evidence: When Data was ordered to go along with Maddox's experiments, he
>resigned rather than obey because he felt his life was in danger. Only
>after this did Maddox resort to trying to establish that Data was
>Starfleet *property*, and therefore couldn't resign.
>I don't think Janeway could make the case that Tuvix was starfleet
>property.
Actually, while there has been no explicit scenes to back the case, I
doubt if the two cases are similar. The Troi simulation test took the case
where a battle (or an accident - I can't remember) threatened the entire
ship. It was an emergency condition (or a battle condition) where the
entire ship was in danger; in which case any military organization can
basically force you to go to your death if you are a member of that
organization. (Otherwise you'd be shot yourself for disobeying a lawful
order during an emergency/battle situation. For anyone thinking of joining
a military organization, I'd think about this long and hard. :) )
On the other hand, in the Data example above, the situation was not that
of an emergency or a war; it was only for scientific interest in a peacetime
situation, in which case you go under a more relaxed set of rules which may
include resignation if you feel you are compromising your integrity or life
for no valid reason.
In this case, since it was *not* an emergency (no lives were in immediate
danger) the "procedural" problem arises.
Joe
jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu (James Grady Ward) wrote:
>well i dont recall an episode where people got joined together
>before. a few with them being split yes, but not joined.
And what scientist would not consider that similar enough to warrant
investigation? They blew a good opportunity here - it would have been
cool if they pulled up some old Kirk and Picard logs in an effort to
understand their current situation.
Joe
James Grady Ward
In article <318F6D...@aol.com>, Ed Faith <epf...@aol.com> writes:
>heff wrote:
>
>> I don't think that what she did was wrong, although it certainly was enormously difficult. If Tuvok had
>> received a whack on the head, forgot all logic, and began to lead a happy life of emotion, would it have
>> been wrong to offer medical help to restore his memory? I think Tuvix wasn't a new, seperate life, but just
>> a different mental and physical state of the two pre-existing beings. Whether he/they understood it at the
>> time, undoing the accident was the appropriate method of healing a bizarre medical condition.
>
>Problem is, this argument wasn't given. I'm left with the impression
>that Janeway simply wanted her old buddies back more than she wanted
>to keep this relative stranger. Like Kess. Her failure to present
>a good argument for the separation is key.
>
was a good agruement presented against seperation. very old medical
tradition states that when a patient can not talk you assume they
want to be cured. here you have two of three people that can not
present their case, but it would not be hard to think that they
could easily have reasons for wanting to continue their lives
seperately if asked. the very fact that neither one seemed upset
after the seperationg should attest to that. maybe janeway and kes
might have know better than tuvix what tuvok and neelix would want
since in a way they may have a clearer prespective
James Grady Ward
In article <4moov2$v...@news.umbc.edu>, twi...@umbc.edu (williams tracy) writes:
>L. Gay Palmero (g...@texas.net) wrote:
>: Timothy Burke wrote:
>
>
>: I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
>: several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
>: she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
>: ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix, if we're going to call this
>: murder, just as splitting him would end in his "murder."
>
> No, no, no! Murder requires you to take an active step. The fusing
>of Tuvok and Neelix was a twist of fate. The seperation of Tuvix was murder.
>Big difference.
>
learn a little bit of philosopy(sp). the act of non action is an act.
i think people are tring weasle out of a serious moral delima by saying
just dont act and what has happened be. tis somewhat shameful
so once they knew that it was possible to restore tuvok and neelix to
not act would be equal to killing both of them in a way more cruelly
than the supposed "killing" of tuvix. "killing" tuvix to restore tuvok
and neelix would not be an easy thing to do and would leave behind some
guilt, but what do you think not acting would do to people. many of the
people on the crew knew that both tuvok and neelix had reasons that they
would want to be restored to their normal states, would you like to know
that every time you saw tuvix that you knew his existance means the non
existance of two people that supposedly are your friends and you know
would want to be alive if possible.
>: While Tuvix may not have been their
>: murderer, to allow him to live at their expense would have ended in
>: murder, just the same. The question then becomes, is she going to be
>: guilty of one murder or two? I think she made the right choice. I
>: think it was a tough, but very gutsy choice to make, and I respect her
>: more now than I ever did before.
>
> Somebody suggested this example to illustrate why that makes zero
>sense: let's say the Kazon kidnap Tuvok and Neelix and say they will kill
>them both unless Janeway murders, say, Hogan. Hogan, although a reasonably
>honorable guy, has no desire to die and refuses to sacrifice himself. Now,
>assuming the Kazon aren't going to pull a fast one, Janeway is morally
>obliged to off Hogan to get Tuvok and Neelix back, right? After all, Tuvok
>and Neelix didn't ask to be kidnapped, and two lives will be saved, and
>bla bla bla... to quote an extremely unfortunate man, "Doesn't anybody see
>that this is wrong?"
so you let two die just to let one live. it is command decisions like
that that will get commanders shot in the back. what this show presents
is a rather nasty moral delima in which someone dies as a result of the
captains action or non action. you guys seem to be impling that if
janeway just did not act then nothing would be wrong, but that would
be much colder that to "kill" tuvix to restore tuvok and neelix. it is
the kind of decision that who ever makes walks away with blood on their
hands no matter how they decide, that is why the crew stayed out of and
perhaps only why the doctor had trouble with it since he does not exactly
have emotions and therefore does not feel greif and loss.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mo12q$d...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>schlock <sch...@leland.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>>I wonder, though, if people are
>>assuming that "Janeway was wrong" necessarily indicates "bad episode."
>
>No, but "Janeway became a cold-blooded murderer" does necesarily
>indicate that the show as a whole is ruined (unless they get rid of
>Janeway, which is now there only option). She violated not only the
>most fundamental Federation principles but the fundamental principles
>of civilized life, even by 20th century standards. There's no way I
>can have any respect for her now, I sure wouldn't want to be a member
>of her crew ... wondering if I'm the next one she'll murder to save
>two others.
lets see let one person die to save two others, what would you rather
someone in command of you let two die to save one person. or would
it just be ok if the two died if the one was someone you liked. i
really wonder how this arguement would be going if the combined tuvix
had been as annoying as neelix.....
the person i would prefer as a commander is the one that is willing to let
one die to save two others and has the backbone to make such a decision.
and to honest i am very afraid of where the world is heading when that
does not make moral sense to someone.
i wonder if you would have been hiding in a corner if you were the one
who had to make the decision not just type away about how bad it was.
>
>>This one was...good.
>
>Well, if you consider character assasination (which is what the
>writers did to Janeway) "good" I guess so.
>
>Joe
James Grady Ward
In article <4mocjb$l...@news.umbc.edu>, twi...@umbc.edu (williams tracy) writes:
> However, getting back to the original post of this thread, I
>must agree- the fact that Janeway was wrong to the point of being nearly
>evil doesn't mean the episode sucked. In fact, I'd be willing to call it
>the best of the series solely on the strength of the last 15 minutes.
> -tlw
i would say it is about the best episode that trek has put out
since roddenbery died and perhaps the closest to what he wanted to
do with the show. think about it folks, about 50 minutes of film
and look at all the discussion it has lead to.
James Grady Ward
In article <4monr2$c...@news-central.tiac.net>, Jlun...@JLphoto.com (Treker L) writes:
>schlock <sch...@leland.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
>>This one was...good.
>I agree. And thats odd for a transporter accident. Although I don't
>think what Janeway did was wrong. Two people had to die to let 1
>person live(tuvix). Janeway had a chance to save 2 people for the
>price of one. Although the conditions were less then ideal and it
>became Janeways decision I think she made the right one. I would have
>done it.
>
>But the real question is this : If 3 species were combined Vulcan,
>Neelix,and that flower, Why did from then on people talk about
>seperating ~TWO~ species? When the 2 of them were seperated I would
>have liked to see the flowers left over.
let me guess a ring of rose buds around their heads:)
that or one of them holding it.
>
> </\> Treker L =/\=
James Grady Ward
In article <4moqu5$f...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, bder...@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca (Bryan Derksen) writes:
>
>I think that the lives which *exist* should have precedence; Tuvix was
>alive, and Tuvok and Nelix were not. Mince definitions if you will, but if
>you manage to define Tuvok and Nelix as being still somehow 'alive' then
>the whole justification for separating Tuvix in the first place goes out
>the window. They were dead, and Tuvix simply had the bad luck to have been
>created in the reversable accident that killed them. He wasn't somehow
>'holding them hostage', any more than I'm holding a heart attack patient
>hostage by refusing to donate my own heart for transplant.
>
but you raise an important point, since the accident was reversable neelix
and tuvok are not dead. they are only dead if you cant undo the accident.
so deciding to let tuvix live is the same as deciding to not save tuvok
and neelix now that you can.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mo1jl$d...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu (Timothy Burke) wrote:
>
>>Aside from that, I'm not so much sure that Janeway *was* wrong. Neither
>>Tuvok nor Neelix agreed to give up their lives for Tuvix, after all. The
>>lives which exist first should have precedence.
>
>They're starfleet officers who were lost in the line of duty.
>"Precedence" my ass. They were already gone, and Janeway saw fit to
>murder an innocent bystander to get them back. So is Janeway's
>court-martial going to be right away or will they wait until they're
>back on Earth?
>
yet again, no wake, no funeral, no death certificate, not dead or lost.
nothing in the show indicates that they were considered dead or even
just lost by anyone on the ship besides possible tuvix.
so just what is your big problem with the show joe, or did this one
strike just a little to close to your own psyche for some reason.
do we not like seeing a female be given a serious decision to make
and be able to make herself and have the guts to back it up.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mo1cp$d...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>Greg Krehbiel <Greg_K...@thompson.com> wrote:
>
>>Since Janeway is now guilty of cold-blooded murder, perhaps Chakotay
>>will have to preside over her court-martial?
>
>That's what really burns me ... not that the captain just made a
>barbaric decision, but the crew just stood around and let her. Who's
>going to try them?
>
for one thing learn what the term "respect for chain of command" means,
then maybe you would know why they did not stand in her way. second
since i never saw a wake or some other memorial i want to know why
you assume that the crew considered tuvok and neelix dead. this
is importan since if they are not considered dead then it would
be rather cruel to not let them have their normal lives back.....
James Grady Ward
In article <4mok99$8...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>spock@vulcan wrote:
>
>>Couldn' there have been a much simpler resolution in 2 steps?
>
>>1) Seperate Tuvix back into Tuvok and Neelix first
>
>>2) Then ask THEM, the 2 lifeforms merged without their knowledge or
>>consent in a transporter ACCIDENT, if they WANT to be re-merged into
>>Tuvix.
>
>There are many ways the show could have been resolved without
>resorting to brutal murder.
>
returning two people back to their normal state in now murder?
gee i guess seperating simese(sp) twins mean you kill the original
combined person then as well.
why are people so quick to forget that tuvok and neelix might want
to be back the way they were.
i wonder if tuvix had displayed more of neelix's annoying habits
and less of tuvok's control so that the tuvix character was annoying
in its own right would we be having this discussion?
James Grady Ward
In article <4mom2h$2...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) writes:
>"L. Gay Palmero" <g...@texas.net> wrote:
>
>>I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
>>several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
>>she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
>>ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix, if we're going to call this
>>murder, just as splitting him would end in his "murder."
>
>Nonsense, you can't murder someone who's already been lost. Their
>lives *were* lost in a transporter accident, there's no denying that.
>Niether Janeway nor anyone else can be held responsible for that, it
>was a freak accident. Tuvix, on the other hand, she had to murder in
>cold blood.
either you didnt watch the start of the show or you dont know much
about traditions inside the military. if one of your shipmates dies
, even one you hate, you give them a wake/memorial with all due respect
honor and diginity(what ever this ends up meaning to the surviors, have
been to a couple of wakes throw by armies budies). this is done as soon
as possible unless something is preventing it like a major crisis. now
i dont know what you watched but i NEVER saw anything that looked like
a wake or the doctor filling out a death certificate for that matter.
translation if you not caught on yet, NO ONE on the ship considered them
dead or lost execpt maybe tuvix.
>
>> and I respect her
>>more now than I ever did before.
>
>I used to respect her a lot, but I never will have one iota of respect
>for her again.
let me guess you never read much military history before have you,
the most respected commanders in history are the same ones that have
made some very ugly choice at times.
>
>Joe
Al Ruffinelli
On 8 May 1996 01:35:08 GMT, ae...@u.washington.edu wrote:
[snip]
> Janeway did the right thing. I thought it was extremely selfish for Tuvix
> available. Tuvok and Neelix never asked to be merged, and Tuvix was NOT
what are you talking about? how did/would tuvix murder tuvok or neelix?
it was selfish to kill tuvix (a self-aware individual with the memories
and personal traits of two people) to get tuvok and neelix back.
> Also, another good paralell someone brought up was from Troi's test to
> become commander... in order to pass, she had to send the holographic
> Geordi to his death in order to save the lives of the crew... exact same
> principle.
you'll have to explan that connection.
------------------------------------------------------------
Al Ruffinelli <alv...@netgate.net>
http://www.netgate.net/~alvaro
ftp://ng.netgate.net/u/alvaro
------------------------------------------------------------
Al Ruffinelli
On 7 May 1996 15:37:04 -0700, pet...@PEAK.ORG wrote:
[snip]
> Uh, excuse me. Are you now privy to what went on in Roddenberry's
> mind? How can you possibly *know* what he would have though about
> this episode. He has been dead for a while, you know. Or are you
> somehow *channeling* his thoughts to us?
no need to get mystical. you can get a sense of how people think by what
they do and what they say. you can get a sense of how Gene thought, from TOS
and TNG, as well as interviews and whatever else you like.
> I most certainly think that Janeway DID put a respect for life
> ahead of *personal* feelings in this situation; the lives of
> BOTH TUVOK and NEELIX. You know, the original life beings who
> were being essentially "taken over" by another lifeform. Of
> course, if you personally despise the characters of Neelix and
> TUvok in the first place *and* also liked the new character
> better, it would explain your attitude. (And others'.)
problem is, you can't justify killing someone to save someone else.
this has nothing to do with liking or disliking particular characters.
we're talking about an immoral act.
as it's been said, it would have been a very different story if tuvix had
sacrificed himself. but that's not what happened.
James Grady Ward
In article <tburke1-0705...@mac31.pearson.swarthmore.edu>, tbu...@cc.swarthmore.edu (Timothy Burke) writes:
>Otherwise, one would have to consider that the crewmembers of the
>Enterprise were equally wrong to board the Borg vessel and kill Borg
>crewmembers in order to rescue Picard. He too was "lost", right? A
>Starfleet admiral even officially considered him lost. Tuvix may have been
>a nice guy, but his existence effectively held two individuals in
>captivity. A wrenching dilemma, but I think Janeway made a valid decision.
>
a good point picard had the equvilant of a death certificate and they
still worked to save him. no where did anyone say that tuvok or neelix
were considered dead, so why not restore them back to the normal state.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mp4t9$v...@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu>, ddmi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (Dave Miller) writes:
>Tuvok and Neelix were killed in an unfortunate accident. Too bad.
>But you don't kill somebody against their will to resurrect two dead
>people.
>
an interesting statement, seeing as we dont have the medical ability
to do this yet. so who is to say what the moral majority( ie the
actually morality of the majority) might say about such a thing.
lets say some lone drunk driver that runs into your parents car and
the parents are pronounced dead and taken away. now about a day or
so later( so we can be sure the dead parents are not faking) you
are presented with a question, your parents stay dead and the drunk
get a nice long stay in jail or we kill the drunk and some how in
the process revive you parents.
any takers on this version of the dilema? lets just boil away the
silliness and answer the question in the clear without any voyager
holdovers to cloud our judgement.
would you let one life be taken to return your parents, knowing that
the life taken is the one responisble for you parents being dead.
oh make your best friends if that is getting on anyones nerves by them
being parents is still the same isn't it????
later
James Grady Ward
In article <4mojfp$t...@ionews.ionet.net>, heff...@ionet.net (heff) writes:
> I was terribly disappointed in Janeway a while back when she refused to take
>Neelix's lungs back from the Vidian (sp?) who had stolen them. I would have
>been just as disappointed if she had refused to correct this.
>
i think in the case of the lung, there was something said about not
being able to undo the process that was used to place the lung into
the vidiian.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mouft$f...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, bder...@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca (Bryan Derksen) writes:
>L. Gay Palmero (g...@texas.net) wrote:
>: Timothy Burke wrote:
>: He has the right to justice just the same. He has the right
>: to be heard, even though his voice his silent. Tuvok and Neelix had
>: the same rights. They were not on a hazardous mission, they were not
>: expecting trouble at all, and while Tuvix may not have been their
>: murderer, to allow him to live at their expense would have ended in
>: murder, just the same. The question then becomes, is she going to be
>: guilty of one murder or two?
>
>I don't see how Janeway could be held responsible for the deaths of Tuvok
>and Neelix; the event which killed them was a transporter *accident*.
>Accidents happen.
>
if you know how to make a drug that can save someone and dont give it
to them which results in them dying then by your logic you are in no way
are responsible for that morally.
if the accident could not be undone that would be one thing. but at
the moment it is discovered that it can be undone, tuvok and neelix
are no longer really gone or unrestorable. so at this point janeway has
the medicence to cure them, to not do so requires a level of coldness
that i hope humanity has not reached yet. i have no illusions of
the future being utopia but i would like for it to get a little better
than now.
>If there are two people who are dying of (say) cystic fibrosis, and I
>*don't* remove your lungs to transplant and save them, did I just commit
>two murders? If you run away instead, did you?
a major difference my existance is not the cause of their death.
>
>: I think she made the right choice. I
>: think it was a tough, but very gutsy choice to make, and I respect her
>: more now than I ever did before.
>
i know is nice to see a character that has the backbone to make
a tough decision and carry it out.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mov9j$m...@nntp.Stanford.EDU>, n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <4moqu5$f...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>,
>Bryan Derksen <bder...@gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
>>created in the reversable accident that killed them. He wasn't somehow
>>'holding them hostage', any more than I'm holding a heart attack patient
>>hostage by refusing to donate my own heart for transplant.
>
>The Tuvix situation is not analogous to this. A more appropriate analogy would
>be:
>
>You needed a heart. You got a heart transplant, but immediately it was noticed
>that the original diagnosis of death for the donor was in error, and that he
>can be revived if the heart is given back to him. (Assuming, for the sake of
>argument, that such a medical procedure were possible, since in our Tuvix
>scenario the procedure is indeed possible.)
>
>Essentially, you were not the donor's "murderer" in any sense since you had no
>knowledge that he was actually not dead. However, if you hold onto the heart,
>you would essentially be responsible for his death.
>
>Essentially, Tuvix got his life because he got his body from Tuvok and Neelix.
>Who's to say that he should have the right to hold onto the body when, by
>holding onto that body, he's denying Tuvok and Neelix the rights of having
>their bodies?
actually this is a different question, here you have a case were there
are two people and one must die and the other live.
it is a fun question to debate in its own right, but read my rewording
of this shows central question( that is somewhere inside this thread)
and see what you think of it that way. i tried to free the question itself
from the context of voyager to see if we can get some more rational
discussion about it.
and wouldnt roddenbery be proud of how time and thought has been
put into this one show after it aired. while he may have not
set up the show exactly the same, i have no doubt that if had any
say in it some version of this script would have been put on the air.
he wanted star trek to raise discussion of moral and political issues
and this one certainly has.
Junsok Yang
In article <4mpmrm$7...@ss.netgate.net>, alv...@ng.netgate.net says...
>as it's been said, it would have been a very different story if tuvix
had
>sacrificed himself. but that's not what happened.
And in my opinion at least, had they taken that option, they would
have
retread the old Trek ground of sacrificing oneself for others, and made
this
a rather boring episode. Whether you agree with Janeway's solution or
not,
at least the episode (or at least the underlying premise of the episode
based on the ending) was interesting this time.
James Grady Ward
In article <4mp5r4$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, applc...@aol.com (ApplCinamn) writes:
>>>Essentially, Tuvix got his life because he got his body from Tuvok and
>Neelix.
>Who's to say that he should have the right to hold onto the body when, by
>holding onto that body, he's denying Tuvok and Neelix the rights of having
>their bodies?<<
>
>Look at it from Tuvix's point of view. If it were you, would you have gone
>quietly to your death? Wouldn't you have questions about why you had to be
>executed when the situation that brought you there was not of your making
>in the first place? Frankly, given Vulcan strength and Neelix's apparent
>strength (remember he held his own against Jonas), I was surprised they
>didn' t write it as Tuvix overpowering the two guards and running through
>the ship's corridors.
>
why cloud over a fine moral dilema with silly chase scenes. besides
you just fire one phaser at him and he is a lump on the floor. what
i thought you guys had already decided janeway didnt have a heart or
that it was made of stone not willing to have her fire on her own
crew as well?
Richard S. Saul
In the captain's view--it was a difficult choice. I, too, was quite
dismayed by the resposne of the crew. whatever sensitivity they
showed toward tuvix during the episode was completely wiped out at the
end. They showed themselves to be less than human in their response.
I actually believe it was out of character.
Clint Brome
Pretender (ggor...@ny.wgl.com) wrote:
: Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca (Joe) wrote:
: >Rjh...@law.harvard.edu (Jordan Greenhall) wrote:
: >
: >
: >>Now, addressing the writers, I have to admit that some of the discussions
: >>brought up by the episode have been quite good. But my problem is that _none_
: >>of this was in the episode -- you had to go to the Usenet to find it. The
: >>episode treated it as a difficult, but obvious choice. And, remember, NONE of
: >>the crewmembers rose to speak in Tuvix's defense.
: >
: >This is what really disturbs me - I've not only lost all respect for
: >Janeway but for the rest of the crew as well. As you pointed out, in
: >the Federation it has been well-established that you cannot kill an
: >innocent to protect one (or more than one) of your own.
: For all intents and purposes, Tuvix was a Starfleet officer. And a captain can
: order a Starfleet officer to die for others. For example (although, not a
: great one), the TNG episode where Troi is taking her Commander's test. One of
: the tests had her order Holo-Geordi to save the ship by fixing something in the
: ship that would have surely killed him.
Remember, though, that in a real situation, if a starfleet officer
was in fact ordered to die -- not to risk his life, but to in fact
directly sacrifice it -- they would certainly have the options of:
(a) refuse, and argue the case in a Court Martial
(b) resign his commission -- this certainly was an out for
Worf, when Picard ordered him not to go off and fight in
the Klingon civil war, and more pertinently, for Data, when
it looked like a Court Martial was ready to order him to
submit to being disassembled.
In fact -- that is the best example. If the trial had ended differently
in that episode, then Data would have been a starfleet officer, under
direct orders to terminate his own life. If I recall correctly, he and
Picard discussed the fact that Data had already determined to resign his
commission, and thus not have to die, if the court ruled against him.
Thus, a starfleet officer does not have to kill himself on demand.
(As though such an obvious statement should need evidence!)
Clint
: Grant G.
Clint Brome
williams tracy (twi...@umbc.edu) wrote:
: : > No, they weren't lost. That's the whole point: they were still alive, but
: : > essentially held hostage. We've seen many times that one of Starfleet's
: : > major rules is that if you can rescue a Starfleet crew member, you do so,
: : > including with the use of appropriate force.
: : >
: : > Otherwise, one would have to consider that the crewmembers of the
: : > Enterprise were equally wrong to board the Borg vessel and kill Borg
: : > crewmembers in order to rescue Picard. He too was "lost", right? A
: : > Starfleet admiral even officially considered him lost. Tuvix may have been
: : > a nice guy, but his existence effectively held two individuals in
: : > captivity. A wrenching dilemma, but I think Janeway made a valid decision.
: You are forgetting, of course, that Riker undertook the rescue mission
: not *just* to save the captain, but also to gain an advantage over the Borg.
: Remember, the Borg *were* getting ready to turn Earth into a big crater, and
: the Federation was at war. Comparing this to Tuvix's situation just doesn't
: fit.
: : I agree wholeheartedly. There was also the added dilemma, which
: : several people seem to be ignoring, that she was literally "damned if
: : she did, and damned if she didn't." Not splitting Tuvix would have
: : ended in the murder of Tuvok and Neelix, if we're going to call this
: : murder, just as splitting him would end in his "murder."
: No, no, no! Murder requires you to take an active step. The fusing
: of Tuvok and Neelix was a twist of fate. The seperation of Tuvix was murder.
: Big difference.
: : That said, I'll add one more thing. I find it very disturbing to read
: : people saying that Tuvok and Neelix had no rights because they were
: : "lost." If they were lost, they therefore become victims. And isn't
: : that a flaw in our own justice system, that we seldom ever hear the
: : voice of the victims? Tuvok and Neelix were valuable additions to the
: : crew. At the very least, they had the right to be heard, and since
: : there was no one to speak for them, then Janeway certainly was correct
: : to consider their rights.
: Why do people keep saying this? Tuvix wasn't a completely new
: personality; he was a 50/50 split between Tuvok and Neelix. If both or
: either one of them had truly desired to be seperated, this should have
: been apparent in Tuvix's behavior, actions, and words. Maybe it's just me,
: but I didn't see a single moment of ambiguity when Janeway told him that
: she was going to order him to undergo seperation. He was NOT happy.
: : murder victim no longer has rights because his life has been brutally
: : cut short. He has the right to justice just the same. He has the right
: : to be heard, even though his voice his silent. Tuvok and Neelix had
: : the same rights. They were not on a hazardous mission,
: Whoa, whoa, stop right there. Are you trying to tell me that officers
: don't realize that being on a starship means that really wacked shit is going
: to happen to you? Being on Voyager is a hazardous mission, period, and even
: if Neelix didn't know that upon first boarding, he certainly knew it by this
: episode.
:
: : While Tuvix may not have been their
: : murderer, to allow him to live at their expense would have ended in
: : murder, just the same. The question then becomes, is she going to be
: : guilty of one murder or two? I think she made the right choice. I
: : think it was a tough, but very gutsy choice to make, and I respect her
: : more now than I ever did before.
: Somebody suggested this example to illustrate why that makes zero
: sense: let's say the Kazon kidnap Tuvok and Neelix and say they will kill
: them both unless Janeway murders, say, Hogan. Hogan, although a reasonably
: honorable guy, has no desire to die and refuses to sacrifice himself. Now,
: assuming the Kazon aren't going to pull a fast one, Janeway is morally
: obliged to off Hogan to get Tuvok and Neelix back, right? After all, Tuvok
: and Neelix didn't ask to be kidnapped, and two lives will be saved, and
: bla bla bla... to quote an extremely unfortunate man, "Doesn't anybody see
: that this is wrong?"
: -tlw
Excellent example!
: --
: TracyWilliams|ManWithTheFluid.SigFile|IndieRockerOrWannabeGoth?|YouDecide!
: MyBloodyValentine|Cure|Spinanes|Lois|ToriAmos|BlackTapeforABlueGirl|Lisa
: Gerrard|FlamingLips|BuiltToSpill|MaryLouLord|ThePixies|thatdog.|Catherine
: Wheel|SoulCoughing|Bjork|andManyMore|"when you wake you're still in a dream"
Arthur Levesque
James Grady Ward (jgw...@unity.ncsu.edu) asked:
JGW>a question for those of you who say that since tuvix did not want to
JGW>be returned to his original state they should have left him as tuvix.
JGW>in the tng episode where the ship's crew was de-evolved, i do not
JGW>recall picard or data ever even stoping to think if anyone on the
JGW>crew would like to stay in their current form...
I don't believe that they were still sentient and capable enough of
making such a decision. Tuvix was clearly able to state his preference
in the matter.
--
/\ Arthur Levesque, baks...@nicom.com <*> Cthulhu matata!
\B\ack King of the Potato People =/\= Unconventional Conventionist
\S\lash "That man confuses me. Kill him." -Zorgon the Malevolent
\/ http://www.nicom.com/~bakslash/index.html [fnord]
Jim Bitterman
In article <4mok79$8...@fountain.mindlink.net>, Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca says...
>
>ddmi...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (Dave Miller) wrote:
>
>>What would be really interesting would be to see members of the crew
>>overcompensate for their guilt in this incident by becoming more
>>rebellious against controversial (though much less controversial than
>>the splitting of Tuvix, of course) orders from Janeway.
>
>I agree, Dave, the only way for the writers to get out of the hole
>they've dug for themselves is to follow it up in a future episode (in
>which it would be made perfectly clear that Janeway made a serious
>mistake). Like you though, I won't be holding my breath.
Why? There's nothing to fix. Whether you agree with Janeway's
actions or not is irrelevent. This is DRAMA folks; we're not
supposed to AGREE with everything we see, it only matters that
the characters in this little play are acting in BELIEVEABLE ways,
expressing realistic attitutes and emotions, however controversial.
Do you agree with actions? No? Do you find her actions BELIEVABLE?
Yes? Good. By the way, if you answered 'no' to the second question,
then judging by the level of support for Janeway I have seen in this
newsgroup, then I'd say you are in extreme denial. They are proof
that such views are actually held by a lot of people.
This reminds me of the episode where an alien culture initiated
clones of Riker and Pulaski without their knowledge. When R & P
found out about it, they destroyed the proto-clones (who were
not yet sentient -- they were still pod-bound and of intederminant
appearance).
Controversy raged on this incident, with some people saying it
was BAD DRAMA, because they felt R & P's actions made no sense,
ignoring the fact that many people agreed with their actions.
Arthur Levesque
Joe <Joe_M...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
JM>Nonsense, you can't murder someone who's already been lost...
Nelson Lu (n...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
NL>First, Tuvok and Neelix are not "already lost." They could easily be
NL>retrieved.
With the aid of time-travel, ANYBODY can be retrieved. That doesn't
make it right.
NL>Second, even if they were already lost, not retrieving them would
NL>still be tantamount to murder...
Is it murder to allow those who are dead to remain dead? "We're
slingshotting around the sun now to cure the Black Plague..."