Def. of "to grok"
ez00...@chip.ucdavis.edu
great memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away
in Illinois...
Wade in Davis California...
Sean Eric Fagan
>definition of the term "grok"?
"grok" is "to drink."
Andreas Schwarz
>great memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away
>in Illinois...
I'm sorry, but the real definition you can only get if you're speakin'
and thinkin' in marsian language !
And if you do, you never more need any definition for :--)))
But in my less skills in the english language I'll try it for you :
grok - the mostly complete internalisation of something.
to get the feeling for it, to touch it with your mind, to get
real cognition of it in all possibilities, to make sure that you
never doubt of it's individual being.
It is also a version of communication with the world around and
all it's individual parts.
Hmm, the language don't fit really... :-)
Andreas Schwarz ( alias Chiron McAnndra :)
-------------------------------------
| Munich / Germany |
| E-Mail : chi...@cube.net |
-------------------------------------
ceterum censeo claudiam esse amandam :)))
David Mix Barrington
Of course as a Martian word it doesn't have an English equivalent, and
I don't think RAH ever offers a definition in the book, but the closest
I can come to the root meaning is "have a full emotional understanding of"
(the inadequate translation of the Newspeak word "bellyfeel" offered in the
linguistic appendix to _1984_). It's sort of like Christian Science, in
which "Love", "Truth", and most other positively-connotated abstract nouns
are synonyms for "God".
Someone will check me on this, but I think a character in _SiaSL_ says that
the original meaning of "to grok" was "to drink", and it acquired all the
overlay meanings because of the religious role of water in Martian culture...
I'm interested to see some of the flip answers you'll get, but I figured you
deserve at least one straight one.
Dave MB
A Adams
: In article <Cp7AI...@ucdavis.edu> ez00...@chip.ucdavis.edu () writes:
: >definition of the term "grok"?
: "grok" is "to drink."
also, to grok is to know, to eat, to be aware of, have sex with (oops,
sorry, dropping into definition of sass there).
Seriously understanding the verb grok is one of the main points of
the book.
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David Gibbs
>Anyone out there with a copy of "Stranger in a Strange Land" handy or a
>great memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away
>in Illinois...
Are you looking for a literal definition, or what it means?
Somebody else gave the definition of "to grok" as "to drink".
It is used to mean a total and complete understanding of
something or somebody.
-David
Michael Feld
>great memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away
>in Illinois
Why, "grok" means "to drink".
And "to drink", of course, means "to dig", as they lacked free-flowing
water, those Martians, and so were obliged to seek their water
underground, in wells.
Hope this has helped.
-
--
Michael Feld | E-mail: <fe...@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Philosophy | FAX: (204) 261-0021
University of Manitoba | Voice: (204) 474-9136
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 2M8, Canada
Azatoth
'to grok' is 'to kenn'. Just read 'Uplift' by David Brin once again ;)
Think it won't help you, but one never knows :)
Mat
Tek Ying
> Anyone out there with a copy of "Stranger in a Strange Land" handy or a great
> memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away in
> Illinois...
From what I remember (without looking at the book...) to 'grok' is to
consume. To consume in whatever way possible, to consume the total and complete
meaning to something, or to eat, I believe. It's to totally consume, usually
meaning to understand. That's what I remember, anyway.
Christian Gadeken
Well, yes, but "drink" doesn't mean the same thing in Martian
that it does in English. (Or most other Earth languages, I expect.)
--
Christian Gadeken While Luna was on the phone and Tuxedo
Otaku-Atama Kamen was reading the paper, Kunzite and
Captain No-Life Zoisite were watching televisions(six of them).
Math Teaching-Accessory -Sailor Moon, Act 6(manga).
F A Levy-Haskell
>Anyone out there with a copy of "Stranger in a Strange Land" handy or a
>great memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away
>in Illinois...
"Now take this one word: 'grok.' Its literal meaning, one which I suspect
goes back to the origin of the Martian race as thinking, speaking creatures--
and which throws light on their whole 'map'--is quite easy. 'Grok' means 'to
drink.'"
"Huh?" said Jubal. "But Mike never says 'grok' when he's just talking
about drinking. He--"
"Just a moment." Mahmoud spoke to Mike in Martian.
Mike looked faintly surprised and said, "'Grok' is drink," and dropped the
matter.
"But Mike would also have agreed," Mahmoud went on, "if I had named a
hundred other English words, words which represent what we think of as
different concepts, even pairs of antithetical concepts. And 'grok' means
_all_ of those, depending on how you use it. It means 'fear,' it means
'love,' it means 'hate'--proper hate, for by the Martian 'map' you cannot
possibly hate anything unless you grok it completely, understand it so
thoroughly that you merge with it and it merges with you--then and only then
can you hate it. By hating yourself. But this also implies, by necessity,
that you love it, too, and cherish it and would not have it otherwise. Then
you can _hate_--and (I think) that Martian hate is an emotion so black that
the nearest human equivalent could only be called a mild distaste."
Mahmoud screwed up his face. "It means 'identically equal' in the
mathematical sense. The human cliche, 'This hurts me worse than it does you'
has a Martian flavor to it, if only a trace. The Martians seem to know
instinctively what we learned painfully from modern physics, that the
observer interacts with the observed simply through the process of
observation. 'Grok' means to understand so thoroughly that the observer
becomes a part of the process being observed--to merge, to blend, to
intermarry, to lose personal identity in group experience. It means almost
everything that we mean by religion, philosophy, and science--and it means as
little to us as color means to a blind man." Mahmoud paused. "Jubal, if I
chopped you up and made a stew of you, you and the stew, whatever else was in
it, would grok--and when I ate you, we would grok together and nothing would
be lost and it would not matter which one of us did the chopping up and
eating."
"It would to me!" Jubal said firmly.
"You aren't a Martian." Mahmoud again stopped again to talk to Mike in
Martian.
Mike nodded. "You spoke rightly, my brother Dr. Mahmoud. I am been
saying so. Thou art God."
Mahmoud shrugged helplessly. "You see how hopeless it is? All I got was
a blasphemy. We don't think in Martian. We _can't_."
"Thou art God," Mike said agreeably. "God groks."
"Hell, let's change the subject! Jubal, could I impose on my fraternal
status for some more gin?"
--Stranger In A Strange Land (the uncut version), pp. 265-266. Ace/Putnam.
--
Fred A. Levy Haskell | "I do believe you are what you perceive
fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu | what comes is better than what came before"
| --The Velvet Underground
barbara trumpinski
> Mat
to quote the guy who used the term, valentine michael smith, in
_stranger in a strange land_ , to grok is to drink.
--
@@@kit...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu barb...@prairienet.org /\ /\
"my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?" {=.=}
shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased. ~
Henry Troup
Andreas Schwarz <sch...@lipp.mch.sni.de> wrote:
>In article <Cp7AI...@ucdavis.edu> ez00...@chip.ucdavis.edu () writes:
>grok - the mostly complete internalisation of something.
And also, literally, "to drink".
Grok?
--
Henry Troup - H.T...@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
Highways are for cars -- surf the Internet!
Melchar
David Thomas Richard Given
>Anyone out there with a copy of "Stranger in a Strange Land" handy or a
>great memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away
>in Illinois...
Literally,
grok (gr'ok): (v.) to drink. [Martian]
However, it's one of those words that can only be understood by long
immersion in the language. Anybody who uses the word grok without speaking
the language doesn't grok grok.
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David Rysdam
>In article <Cp7AI...@ucdavis.edu>, <ez00...@chip.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>>Anyone out there with a copy of "Stranger in a Strange Land" handy or a
>>great memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away
>>in Illinois...
>Literally,
>grok (gr'ok): (v.) to drink. [Martian]
>However, it's one of those words that can only be understood by long
>immersion in the language. Anybody who uses the word grok without speaking
>the language doesn't grok grok.
The real question is not "what does grok mean;" this is the real question:
All through the book, people (esp Jubal) say that Martian sounds like
croaking and that it is really harsh on the throat--so why is the basic
word, "grok," so easy to say? You'd think it'd be something like "grchk!".
--
-- David Rysdam's .sig of the day is:
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to
make it shorter.
-- Blaise Pascal
Christian Neuss
>Anyone out there with a copy of "Stranger in a Strange Land" handy or a
>great memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away
>in Illinois...
From the excellent NEXTSTEP app "Hackers.app" (a hackers dictionary
implementation on NEXTSTEP):
grok /grok/, var. /grohk/ from the novel `Stranger in a Strange Land',
by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally
`to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with' vt.
1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes intimate and
exhaustive knowledge. Contrast zen,, similar supernal understanding
as a single brief flash. See also glark,.
2. Used of programs, may connote merely sufficient understanding.
"Almost all C compilers grok the `void' type these days."
Cheerio,
Chris
--
"I ride a tandem with the random.."
Christian Neuss # Fraunhofer Institute for Computer Graphics
Wilhelminenstr.7 # 64283 Darmstadt # Germany
e-mail: ne...@igd.fhg.de finger: ne...@wildturkey.igd.fhg.de
Lee Roy Sims
>dt...@st-andrews.ac.uk (David Thomas Richard Given) writes:
>>In article <Cp7AI...@ucdavis.edu>, <ez00...@chip.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>>>Anyone out there with a copy of "Stranger in a Strange Land" handy or a
>>>great memory know a definition of the term "grok"? My copy is far away
>>>in Illinois...
>>Literally,
>>grok (gr'ok): (v.) to drink. [Martian]
>>However, it's one of those words that can only be understood by long
>>immersion in the language. Anybody who uses the word grok without speaking
>>the language doesn't grok grok.
>The real question is not "what does grok mean;" this is the real question:
>All through the book, people (esp Jubal) say that Martian sounds like
>croaking and that it is really harsh on the throat--so why is the basic
>word, "grok," so easy to say? You'd think it'd be something like "grchk!".
Isn't "grok" the sound frogs make?
-S.Sims
David DeLaney
>The real question is not "what does grok mean;" this is the real question:
>
>All through the book, people (esp Jubal) say that Martian sounds like
>croaking and that it is really harsh on the throat--so why is the basic
>word, "grok," so easy to say? You'd think it'd be something like "grchk!".
Because you're not pronouncing it right; you say it down by your larynx
instead of up in the front of your mouth. From what they say about how
Martian sounds, anyway. If you do that, it sounds like you're swallowing
a frog...
Dave "based on my quick experiments just now" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IM(NS)HO; VRbeableDJK
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd for net.legends FAQ+miniFAQs; ftp: cathouse.org
Kirk Davies
> It seems clear to me :
> 'to grok' is 'to kenn'. Just read 'Uplift' by David Brin once again ;)
Has anyone else noticed the similarity between the work "grok" and
Douglas Adams' "sass", as in "Hey, you sass that hoopy Ford Prefect?
Now there's a frood who really knows where his towel is."
It is defined in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy as
sass: know, be aware of, meet, have sex with;
hoopy: really together guy;
frood: really amazingly together guy
--
Kirk Davies <k.da...@trl.oz.au> Electronic Adventurer, etc.
"Boldly going where angels fear to tread."
David Squire
>In article <2q6fbo$o...@piston.ecp.fr>, Azatoth wrote:
>> It seems clear to me :
>> 'to grok' is 'to kenn'. Just read 'Uplift' by David Brin once again ;)
[follow-up regarding meaning of "sass", "hoopy" & "frood" deleted]
Well, this is probably completely irrelevant, but the name of the Curtin
University Student Guild newspaper is "Grok". (Though I suspect that some
folk think it is short for "Grok of Shit". *I* think it's quite good).
Squizz
Hari Parameswaran
The word was created by Robert Heinlein in "Strangers in a Strange land"
where it meant (approximately) "To understand in it's fullness" (It's sort
of a keyword that Micheal Valentin Smith (Have I got that right)uses to explain
his powers.
Also see "The Hacker's Dictionary"
Sorry if it's already been answered.
--
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Where's the rest of my signature?
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Scott H. Perlman
>> It seems clear to me :
>> 'to grok' is 'to kenn'. Just read 'Uplift' by David Brin once again ;)
>Has anyone else noticed the similarity between the work "grok" and
>Douglas Adams' "sass", as in "Hey, you sass that hoopy Ford Prefect?
>Now there's a frood who really knows where his towel is."
>It is defined in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy as
> sass: know, be aware of, meet, have sex with;
There is no similarity, to grok is to fully understand know and be
that which is grokked. Avata Grok's in 'The Jesus Incident' by
Herbert & Ransom.
Grok is to internalize, and a person cannot be grokked, his motives
may, his situation may, everything about him and his history may be
grokked, but HE cannot. I cannot grok YOU, but i can grok the
message. I grok that you do not grok grok.
scott
--
"Should I try to be a straight 'A' student?
If you are then you think too much."
-Billy Joel "It's Still Rock and Roll to Me"
=====per...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Scott Perlman)
Paradox (EDJM)
>
> Well, this is probably completely irrelevant, but the name of the Curtin
> University Student Guild newspaper is "Grok". (Though I suspect that some
> folk think it is short for "Grok of Shit". *I* think it's quite good).
>
> Squizz
>
I think that Grok might be something different, but I am in no
way knowledgeable on the subject.
Paradox !-)
--
wecantakeemcharliemikefleshpileheknewwherehistowelwaslifeisfunqfortytwo
!) Paradox !-) (aka: EDJM) | "Every difference of opinion is (!
!) ed...@virginia.edu | not necessarily a difference (!
!) the Madhouse : Hereford College | in principle." (!
David Rysdam
>k.da...@trl.oz.au (Kirk Davies) writes:
>>> It seems clear to me :
>>> 'to grok' is 'to kenn'. Just read 'Uplift' by David Brin once again ;)
>possibly, never read 'Uplift' 'Stranger in a Strange Land' was enough for me!
>>Has anyone else noticed the similarity between the work "grok" and
>>Douglas Adams' "sass", as in "Hey, you sass that hoopy Ford Prefect?
>>Now there's a frood who really knows where his towel is."
>>It is defined in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy as
>> sass: know, be aware of, meet, have sex with;
>There is no similarity, to grok is to fully understand know and be
>that which is grokked. Avata Grok's in 'The Jesus Incident' by
>Herbert & Ransom.
>Grok is to internalize, and a person cannot be grokked, his motives
>may, his situation may, everything about him and his history may be
>grokked, but HE cannot. I cannot grok YOU, but i can grok the
>message. I grok that you do not grok grok.
I beg to differ. Anything and everything can be grokked. Reference:
Jubal, talking to Duke about Mike's adherence to cannibalism says that it
wouldn't matter who ate who, since in either case both would fully grok
the other. There are many other references to Mike/The Old Ones, grokking
people enmass (the fifth planet, the people of earth, etc) and a few other
vague references that could be taken either way (the Food Technician that
dies of homesickness on Mars: The Old Ones "grokked the wounded spirit"
and sent him on his way.
Thus, "sass" could be taken as a humourous (and quite accurate)
interpretation of "grok."
--
-- David Rysdam's .sig of the day is:
Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life.
-- Eric Hoffer
Mario Santana
: per...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Scott H. Perlman) writes:
: >k.da...@trl.oz.au (Kirk Davies) writes:
: >>> It seems clear to me :
: >>> 'to grok' is 'to kenn'. Just read 'Uplift' by David Brin once again ;)
: >possibly, never read 'Uplift' 'Stranger in a Strange Land' was enough for me!
: >may, his situation may, everything about him and his history may be
: >grokked, but HE cannot. I cannot grok YOU, but i can grok the
: >message. I grok that you do not grok grok.
: I beg to differ. Anything and everything can be grokked. Reference:
: Jubal, talking to Duke about Mike's adherence to cannibalism says that it
: wouldn't matter who ate who, since in either case both would fully grok
: the other.
: -- David Rysdam's .sig of the day is:
: Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life.
: -- Eric Hoffer
Not knowing whether I grok rightly, (I can't change subjective time-rate like
Mike =), I grok that to grok, one must know Martian, or posess the (amazing?)
capacity to think in no language (I can't). I can think in three languages, and
I know what Heinlein means when he talks about 'changing the map'. There are
different 'routes' to the same 'places', but some 'places' and 'routes' don't
exist in some laguages. I simply cannot (at least, with my limited powers) say
in English, what I can say in Spanish quickly. I can't explain it to you in
English, either. In order to express that, I would have to write a book. If it
were good enough, I could then assign a word-constant, to hold that whole
definition I have assigned. Writing a book, (which seems, to me, to be the best
way to define a new concept, next to actual experience), would be 'creating
a place', or 'making a new dot' on the map.
This whole idea can extend even to computer languages, i.e., it is not easy to
say anything in English (or Spanish), that creates the impression of solidity
and structure, implicit and obvious in a C program. Making a statement of
solidity and structure simply doesn't grok the same in both cases (all three).
However, my personal opinion lies in agreement with Kirk; I think/grok that
it is impossible to grok in a dynamic manner. Grokking seems to be limited to
static situations, like the *memory* of Mike, *after* he died. I don't mean
to start a flame about it - both positions can be well defended.
Which gets me thinking...
Maybe I can win a some kind of Prize for inventing Thought Calculus. That way,
it would be possible to think/grok higher order (dynamic) concepts and
situations... Hmmm, Any suggestions?
Scott H. Perlman
>Jubal, talking to Duke about Mike's adherence to cannibalism says that it
>wouldn't matter who ate who, since in either case both would fully grok
>the other. There are many other references to Mike/The Old Ones, grokking
>people enmass (the fifth planet, the people of earth, etc) and a few other
>vague references that could be taken either way (the Food Technician that
>dies of homesickness on Mars: The Old Ones "grokked the wounded spirit"
>and sent him on his way.
>Thus, "sass" could be taken as a humourous (and quite accurate)
>interpretation of "grok."
I stand corrected on the ability to grok a person, but I still don't
see sass as a real cognate to grok, remember the old ones did grok
without ever meeting, and certainly didn't have sex with the entire
fifth planet. sass could definitely be limited interpretation
relating to those who can perform risratha upon each other.
I just don't think its quite the same meaning, sass seems less,
weeelll less than grok.
David Rysdam
>>I beg to differ. Anything and everything can be grokked. Reference:
>>Jubal, talking to Duke about Mike's adherence to cannibalism says that it
>>wouldn't matter who ate who, since in either case both would fully grok
>>the other. There are many other references to Mike/The Old Ones, grokking
>>people enmass (the fifth planet, the people of earth, etc) and a few other
>>vague references that could be taken either way (the Food Technician that
>>dies of homesickness on Mars: The Old Ones "grokked the wounded spirit"
>>and sent him on his way.
>>Thus, "sass" could be taken as a humourous (and quite accurate)
>>interpretation of "grok."
>I stand corrected on the ability to grok a person, but I still don't
>see sass as a real cognate to grok, remember the old ones did grok
>without ever meeting, and certainly didn't have sex with the entire
>fifth planet. sass could definitely be limited interpretation
>relating to those who can perform risratha upon each other.
>I just don't think its quite the same meaning, sass seems less,
>weeelll less than grok.
I see your point, and while I don't want to keep harping on such a
non-serious subject, I _would_ like to point out that for the old ones to
grok, they don't need to have sex. Sex is the human way of grokking (just
like sass). So sass could be a human cognate (or whatever) for grok, but
not a universal.
So in that sense, yes, sass is less than grok.
--
-- David Rysdam's .sig of the day is:
The goal of science is to build better mousetraps.
The goal of nature is to build better mice.
Scott H. Perlman
well, I don't mind carrying on a worthless thread ;-)}
Just reread Stranger in a Strange Land this weekend, and i have to say that
sex was in no way neccessary to 'grok'. One could grok without ever having
sex, and one certainly didn't need to have sex with a person to 'grok' him/her
Jubal, Mike, Ben, and Duke grokked each other by the end of the book, and the
ONLY person Jubal 'sassed' in the book was Dawn!!!
another $.02
(its beginning to add up)
David Rysdam
>drys...@ursa.calvin.edu (David Rysdam) writes:
>>per...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Scott H. Perlman) writes:
>>I see your point, and while I don't want to keep harping on such a
>>non-serious subject, I _would_ like to point out that for the old ones to
>>grok, they don't need to have sex. Sex is the human way of grokking (just
>>like sass). So sass could be a human cognate (or whatever) for grok, but
>>not a universal.
>>So in that sense, yes, sass is less than grok.
>well, I don't mind carrying on a worthless thread ;-)}
>Just reread Stranger in a Strange Land this weekend, and i have to say that
>sex was in no way neccessary to 'grok'. One could grok without ever having
>sex, and one certainly didn't need to have sex with a person to 'grok' him/her
>Jubal, Mike, Ben, and Duke grokked each other by the end of the book, and the
>ONLY person Jubal 'sassed' in the book was Dawn!!!
Right. Sorry. I wasn't as exact as I meant to be. Sex is
_growing_closer_...which is part of grokking...kinda.
--
-- David Rysdam's .sig of the day is:
If God had wanted you to go around nude, He would have given you bigger
hands.
Captain Button
: Right. Sorry. I wasn't as exact as I meant to be. Sex is
: _growing_closer_...which is part of grokking...kinda.
Recall that "sex on Mars was about as romantic as intravenous
feeding."
Sex for Martians has about as much importance to Martians as
taking the garbage out does to humans. It needs doing now and
again, but it isn't significant.
Adult (male) Martians impregnate the few bouncers who survive,
the eggs (or possibly just-hatched bouncers) are tossed out into
the wilderness to live or die. Some time after laying eggs,
a bouncers goes into a decades long pupal stage, to emerge as an
adult.
It is one of the great surprises and discoveries of V. M. Smith
that sex is a means of growing-closer. This is only true for
humans. It is not true for Martians.
But Martians certainly manage to grok without it. :-)
--
- Captain (beating the topic to death with a stick) Button - but...@io.com
"We'll have to organize some Chaos in the Streets." - Lane Kirkland
Nancy Lebovitz
I've seen (and, I think, all of the uses--as distinct from definitions--
of the word in SiaSL) use grok in the active sense---some living
thing groks by mentally encompassing someone or something, even though
the definition says that grokking is done equally by whatever is
encompassed....just a little more evidence that earth habits are
hard to break.
Nancy Lebovitz
calligraphic button catalogue available by email
"Robert A. Heinlein Memorial Service 7:00 PM
Barbecue 7:30 PM
(no salt necessary)"
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Steinn Sigurdsson
Tsk. The definition of "grok" is recursive...
Scott H. Perlman
>I've only been following this thread now and then, but all the posts
>I've seen (and, I think, all of the uses--as distinct from definitions--
>of the word in SiaSL) use grok in the active sense---some living
>thing groks by mentally encompassing someone or something, even though
>the definition says that grokking is done equally by whatever is
>encompassed....just a little more evidence that earth habits are
>hard to break.
I personally uise 'grok' in an active sense only as
'acheiving the state 'grok''
which is much more cumbersome.