What books have dealt with fighting demographic collapse?

[pete...@gmail.com]

We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.

We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.

We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.

Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?

pt

[1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.

[Scott Lurndal]

"pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>
>We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
>good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
>or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
>left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>
>We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
>having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
>a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
>elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
>entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.

I suspect it may be more like a hysteresis loop, where population
will have boom and bust cycles, if the peak isn't a demographic
collapse, the horseman will ride causing a
collapse back to more primitive times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_stable_state

>Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?

Does _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ count as an example
of attemping to reverse a collapse, regardless of cause?

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <6uqNL.1019486$Tcw8....@fx10.iad>,

_Raiders From The Rings_?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <k6mrse...@mid.individual.net>,

"Not With a Bang"

"A Boy & His Dog"

[art...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 1:06:04 PM UTC-5, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>
> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
> good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
> or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
> left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>
> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
> a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>
> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?

Maybe not quite what you are looking for, but in Patricia Anthony Brother Termite, the birth rate is declining and aliens are hoping that nobody notices (because, IIRC, they are behind it, though I can not remember how they did it).

[James Nicoll]

Charles Stross touches on the issue in Saturn's Children: the
solution turns out to be to let the human population drop to
zero, after which the birthrate stops decreasing.

Unsuprisingly, the theme comes up in various Japanese works.

You may discover Western readers find it very hard to distinguish
between populations falling because of people choosing to have
fewer children, population falling because people cannot have
children, and populations falling because of some calamity completely
unrelated to what you're talking about. Enjoy!
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

[Andrew McDowell]

This triggers memories of Asimov's "The Naked Sun" - it's not a very good match to what you are asking for, but the world there has drastically reduced direct interactions between human beings - a bit like a permanent covid lockdown. Wikipedia confirms that they have a strictly limited population, but I can't remember to what extent this is enforced and to what extent this is a natural consequence of their distancing from each other.

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:06:04 AM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?

There's obviously "The Handmaid's Tale", but I'm sure that's not
what you're looking for.

John Savard

[Lynn McGuire]

"Fallen Angels" by Niven and Pournelle

Lynn

[William Hyde]

And Flynn.

William Hyde

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <6922916c-7167-4c1c...@googlegroups.com>,

Well, I mean, it goes without saying that he's in!

[Robert Carnegie]

And _Children of Men_.

In a different situation, I don't remember which exactly,
but I may have recent-ish-ly read one or more books
where a new human colony planet takes making babies
quickly (in the old fashioned way) as a priority. Possibly
in Jack Campbell's "The Genesis Fleet", in which several
planets are newly or recently settled. But I don't remember.

[David Johnston]

Demographic decline to human extinction is a feature in a several of
several science fiction manga reflecting the fact that it looks like the
Japanese population will be reduced to less than half by the end of the
century. But I've only seen one where anyone is trying to fight it.

Marry Me!

> Civil servant Sinn gets a huge surprise on his 29th birthday when he
> is chosen as the first subject of an experimental new law to marry
> someone he's never met. His marriage partner is Mari, a recluse who
> has yet to experience the small joys of life. Now the two must
> navigate their relationship as a married couple, all while proving --
> or disproving -- that the law will benefit the greater good of
> society.

It is sweet but dull. Also not really science fiction.

Similarly Clifford Simak had his own gentle extinction of humanity but
no stories about trying to fight it.

What you do is in science fiction is infertility plagues and people do
try to fight those as in PD James's Children of Men, Janet Morris's High
Couch of Silistra, The Johnson Project by by Maggie Spencer, Bumped by
Megan McCafferty, and The Handmaid's Tale

[Scott Lurndal]

How about when NYC Mayor Amalfi pressed the restart button?

[James Nicoll]

Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
just had a piece:

https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/

As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
Bomb... which it does.

It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
pretexts.

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> just had a piece:
>
> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/

A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
blow his own horn:

https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/

> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> Bomb... which it does.
>
> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> pretexts.

Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
choice than it is today?

pt

[Dimensional Traveler]

At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
non-adopted child they have.

Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
no interracial couples need apply.


--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

[Paul S Person]

On Mon, 6 Mar 2023 11:42:55 -0800 (PST), Andrew McDowell
<mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:

IIRC, one of the later books reveals that the occupants were ...
hermaphrodites.

Meeting other people was /not/ required.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

[pete...@gmail.com]

Trying? It's already baked in. Home ownership is required to pay property
taxes, and while 74% of white non hispanics own houses, only 44%
of blacks do.

I'd rather see something like '$1500/month grant to every child under 18'.

Pt

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <crse0ihn1qtaf213u...@4ax.com>,

(Hal Heydt)
IIRC, they became hermaphrodites long after "The Naked Sun".

[Andrew McDowell]

I suppose you might consider "Ethan of Athos" (Bujold) as related in some way. Perhaps the most relevant part is the background worldbuilding - since the population in question does not have a strong maternal instinct, people get social credit for raising children.

[James Nicoll]

In article <5d2b9e9d-2289-44cd...@googlegroups.com>,

The state could subsidize them but that's communism. A more
acceptable approach would be groinal pain clamps that deliver
a slowly increasing discomfort to adults who have not have new-
borns in, oh, let's say the last 8 months. Start at six pain
units (where ten will trigger a lethal stroke) and then add
one unit per month. Plus of course tax breaks for the rich
but that goes without saying.

[William Hyde]

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 7:53:46 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 6 March 2023 at 20:12:10 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 11:06:04 AM UTC-7, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
> > There's obviously "The Handmaid's Tale", but I'm sure that's not
> > what you're looking for.
> >
> > John Savard
> And _Children of Men_.

I think you mean "Greybeard".

William Hyde

[Lynn McGuire]

Is he not talking about this book ? "A modern science fiction classic
from an acclaimed bestselling author: The year is 2021. No child has
been born for twenty-five years. The human race faces extinction."
https://www.amazon.com/Children-Men-P-D-James/dp/0307275434/

I saw the movie but I did not read the book.

Lynn

[William Hyde]

I greatly admire P.D. James.

But Aldiss did it first, and the similarities are striking - going beyond
the premise and location.

Except that she put in some christian mysticism while Aldiss stuck
to SF.

William Hyde

[Paul S Person]

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:21:34 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 3/7/2023 9:08 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

>> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31?AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
>>> just had a piece:
>>>
>>> https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
>>
>> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
>> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
>> blow his own horn:
>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
>>
>>> As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
>>> academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
>>> Bomb... which it does.
>>>
>>> It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
>>> by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
>>> pretexts.
>>
>> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>> choice than it is today?
>>
>At this point I am feeling an overwhelming need to point out that one of
>the American states has a local legislator proposing a bill to reduce a
>married, heterosexual couple's property taxes by 10% for each
>non-adopted child they have.

Given how property tax works, I don't think that's even possible.

But I don't have to worry about that. Our State Constitution is quite
clear: taxes must be the same rate for all taxed entities in a given
taxing district.

Which is why we don't have an Income Tax: it couldn't have different
rates for different income levels, so what's the point?

>Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I believe
>he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP couples,
>no interracial couples need apply.

The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.

And, anyway, the nuttier the Republicans get, the more "voter fraud"
they will have to endure.

"Voter fraud", of course, in the /Republican/ sense: voting for
Democrats.

[Dimensional Traveler]

I did say "I believe" as in I wasn't sure. The original article I read
may have had information on that but I don't remember.

> And, anyway, the nuttier the Republicans get, the more "voter fraud"
> they will have to endure.
>
> "Voter fraud", of course, in the /Republican/ sense: voting for
> Democrats.

--

[David Johnston]

The Judge Dredd character? I don't recall demographic collapse being
one of Mega City One's many problems.

[Scott Lurndal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_in_Flight#A_Clash_of_Cymbals/The_Triumph_of_Time

[pete...@gmail.com]

White households that own their dwelling: 74%
Black households that own their dwelling: 44%

When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?

pt

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 12:35:13 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:

It would raise revenue for the state. Taxes aren't always intended to
address social issues. MA has a flat 5% income tax across the board, for
both residents and non-residents. Some of my coworkers who live in NH
but worked in MA, got a 5% instant raise when our group when 100% remote.

pt

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
couples.

IOW, the assertion is that even the non-whites who own their homes
(not to mention non-WASPS, such as Poles, Irish, or Italians, and
non-hetero couples) would be excluded.

So your statistics are ... not on point.

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:37:24 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

That won't fly here; in fact, the form currently waiting for the State
Supreme Court to it unconstitutional only applies to the rich. IOW,
Most of Us would have a tax rate of 0%, and that ain't constitutional.

Well, unless our Supreme Court says it is, of course.

[Scott Lurndal]

Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"

>>> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
>believe=20
>>> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
>couples,=20

>>> >no interracial couples need apply.

>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20

>>
>>White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>>Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>>
>>When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>
>Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>couples.

The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm


"Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
woman who are legally married to each other,
neither of whom have ever been divorced."

The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
of wedlock does not qualify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton

"Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...

"On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
secession of Texas from the U.S."

[Robert Woodward]

In article <p83k0id63n1e2lldn...@4ax.com>,

Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

My somewhat cynical opinion is that the legislature, by calling it "an
excise tax" was giving the Washington State Supreme Court an excuse to
call it constitutional. Personally, I think if they passed a flat tax on
non-wage income (e.g., rents, interest, dividends, capital gains, but
not social security nor pensions) they would have had a better chance at
WSSC approval (they would had been at least more honest).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

[pete...@gmail.com]

I always wonder when I so whackazoid proposals like this from legislators,
to what extent they are serious, and to what extent its just grandstanding
for the base.

pt

[pete...@gmail.com]

I'm confused - how does '5% across the board' apply only to the rich?
[I'll put aside the just passed, and grossly unfair, 'millionaire tax' in MA]

Also, while it might not be constitutional at the state level, at the Federal
level, 40% of households pay zero Federal income tax.

pt

[Dimensional Traveler]

As I recall I said I suspect the legislator would like to limit it to
WASP couples. And non-hetero couples _are_ excluded from the provisions
of the bill from what I read as the children would have to be the
natural born offspring of the two parents.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Twenty years ago it was just grandstanding. Today it is serious.

[Scott Lurndal]

"pete...@gmail.com" <pete...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 11:47:35=E2=80=AFAM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrot=
>e:
nstitutional.=20

>
>I'm confused - how does '5% across the board' apply only to the rich?

>[I'll put aside the just passed, and grossly unfair, 'millionaire tax' in M=
>A]
>
>Also, while it might not be constitutional at the state level, at the Feder=

>al
>level, 40% of households pay zero Federal income tax.
>

While true, it's a bit misleading as those folks are generally hit harder
by consumption (sales), fuel, utility, telecommunications taxes, import tariffs, et alia.

[Lynn McGuire]

The Texas legislature is meeting from Jan 2 to May 31 this year. They
only meet every other year. The result is total craziness. Herding
cats is easy by comparison.

Austin, Texas inhabitants are advised to watch over their children and
to safeguard their animals.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

In Texas, we exempt sales taxes on unprepared food, water, and medical.
That generally evens things out.

Lynn

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, 7 March 2023 at 17:08:34 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> > Apparently it's steam engine time for this issue: the Long Now
> > just had a piece:
> >
> > https://longnow.org/ideas/the-heresy-of-decline/
> A pretty decent article, which handily mentions James'
> own 2018 contribution to the field, without him having to
> blow his own horn:
>
> https://www.tor.com/2018/06/11/why-are-there-so-few-sff-books-about-the-very-real-issue-of-population-decline/
> > As a consequence of which, I just checked to see if my prefered
> > academic library has a copy of the _first_ edition of The Population
> > Bomb... which it does.
> >
> > It seems to me, though, that most demographic issues can be addressed
> > by significantly curtailing Savard's civil liberties on flimsy
> > pretexts.
> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> choice than it is today?

I expect _Brave New World_ is not what you have in mind.
Lots of babies, no parents. Other drawbacks.

[Scott Lurndal]

I doubt it.

[WolfFan]

On Mar 9, 2023, Lynn McGuire wrote
(in article <tudorn$1l3ft$3...@dont-email.me>):

Ah. The man who has $100 in his bank account pays the same 0% tax on his
$100,000 bill for cancer treatment that the guy who has $1,000,000,000 in his
bank acount... rather than having the bill paid by the government health
services and by _all_ taxpayers, ‘cause that’s communism. Seems fair.
>
>
> Lynn

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:07:51 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 07:20:07 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
>
>>>> >Given that the legislator in question is a right-wing nutjob I =
>>believe=20
>>>> >he is also trying to include language to restrict that to WASP =
>>couples,=20
>>>> >no interracial couples need apply.
>>>> The reason for suspecting that is obvious, but proof would be better.=20
>>>
>>>White households that own their dwelling: 74%
>>>Black households that own their dwelling: 44%
>>>
>>>When does 'overwhelming evidence' become 'proof'?
>>
>>Sadly, the item to be proved is that the State legislator in question
>>means, when he proposes a property tax deduction, to limit it to WASP
>>couples.
>
>The state in question is the nutty state of Texas.
>
>https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/html/HB02889I.htm

That's no surprise. But nice to know.

> "Qualifying married couple" means a man and a
> woman who are legally married to each other,
> neither of whom have ever been divorced."

Well, that's lets a very large number of people out, given the divorce
rates since divorce was made more easily available in the 50s.

>The credit is 100% if one has 10 children that meet the
>qualifications. Note that a child born (or adopted) out
>of wedlock does not qualify.

So, the Texas State Constitution does /not/ require everyone to pay
property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
surprised?

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Slaton
>
> "Bryan Lee Slaton (born February 2, 1978)[1] is a former pastor...
>
> "On March 6, 2023, Slaton introduced HB 3596, the "Texas Independence Referendum
> Act" (TEXIT),[12] which would allow for a referendum to investigate the
> secession of Texas from the U.S."

An excellent idea. They should do it today. All their Representives
would then go home -- and the House would flip to the Democrats. (Yes
that's how small the Republican edge is -- and Texas has a /lot/ of
Representatives.)

We'd have to bring them back in eventually, of course, but I see no
reason to hurry -- and, after we do, about 40 years of territorial
status while they are "re-educated" would be a good idea.

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:07:00 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

When the "base" invades the legislature and prevents it from doing
business, then it is serious.

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 12:51:02 -0800, Dimensional Traveler

Right. The issue I was addressing was whether it would be limited to
WASP couples -- an issue which % home ownership has no relevance to.

[Paul S Person]

Honesty isn't what they are after. Hell, getting it approved isn't
what they are after. /Publicity/ is what they are after.

I generally vote Democratic (as do a solid majority in my area), but
that doesn't mean I can't recognize left-wingnuttery when I see it.

This same Legislature has taken to passing bills trying to keep us on
DST all year. Sadly, that's not possible -- but keeping us /off/ of
DST all year would be perfectly possible. As I have said, there are
wing-nuts on /all/ sides.

[pete...@gmail.com]

I think we can conclude that this is just grandstanding for
the base, rather than a serious attempt raise the birthrate.
It's effectively restricted to too few people, ie the ones the base
think are the 'right kind', married, heterosexual, never divorced
couples who can afford to buy real estate (that is to say, mostly white).

It's also far too cheap to be effective. 10% of the average TX
property tax is under $400. That's not going to change a lot of
minds.

Pt

[pete...@gmail.com]

An explicitly whites-only bill wouldn't pass today even in TX. The proposer
is using home ownership as a proxy instead.

But the bill is ineffective anyway. A few hundred bucks/year/kid isn't going
to change anyone's family plans.

Pt

[Paul S Person]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 14:54:28 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
have utilities in Texas.

But even then ... your doubt is valid.

[James Nicoll]

In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,

Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>

>Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>have utilities in Texas.

I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

[Dimensional Traveler]

And even if that were possible it couldn't happen because retailers with
multiple outlets charge higher prices in the outlets in poor
neighborhoods. They usually claim it is to offset increased theft in
those areas.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
>> have utilities in Texas.
>
> I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
> at best a sometimes thing in Texas.

Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.

We did have natural gas at my house during the big freeze so we now have
a natural gas fueled whole house electric generator. We did not notice
that our neighborhood had lost power in Sep 2021 when the hurricane
passed overhead since the generator started up automatically. The next
day we lost power for four hours while they reran some of the power
lines that failed during the hurricane. But the generator automagically
started and ran again, we had no idea the power was down for our
neighborhood.

Lynn

[Paul S Person]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:59:52 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

AFAIK, RC (and others with strictly conditional standards of conduct
for staff and faculty) schools aren't firing people for being
divorced, or even divorced and remarried, as they were in, say, the
'50s.

They aren't even firing homosexuals, as such.

No, now you have to commit gay marriage to be fired.

The very definition of retreat.

>It's also far too cheap to be effective. 10% of the average TX
>property tax is under $400. That's not going to change a lot of
>minds.

Well, not if they know how to compute the amount they would receive.
But would those willing and eligible be able to do that?

[William Hyde]

On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 5:28:07 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/10/2023 11:29 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> > In article <pdom0ih64j66amff3...@4ax.com>,
> > Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, I suppose it's /possible/ that people don't wear clothing or
> >> have utilities in Texas.
> >
> > I don't know about the first but the news suggests utilities are
> > at best a sometimes thing in Texas.
> Just for 96 hours in Feb 2021 as the electricity was rationed to those
> who needed it the most during the 47% shortfall in generation (45,000
> MW) versus demand (85,000 MW). And the biennial hurricanes.

When I first moved to Texas I was shocked at the frequency of power outages,
even accounting for the occasional hurricane remnant hitting College Station.

However, we have since caught up with you.

William Hyde

[Lynn McGuire]

We, as in Canada ?

If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
makes it easier.

Lynn

[William Hyde]

Ontario, anyway. The problem is familiar, aging infrastructure, no political benefit in being
the one to fix it. Because look what we did! Tax Cuts! Windmills!

To be fair, 2023 has been good so far, at least in my area. But an earlier round of
tax cuts led to thousands of people being poisoned, seven deaths and quite a few
people with permanent disabilities. But that was water, not hydro.

>
> If so, sorry. Life is difficult and constant unlimited electricity
> makes it easier.

I have lights and books. The house doesn't get below freezing, or not much. It could be
far worse.

William Hyde

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 08:47:02 -0800, Paul S Person
<pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Thu, 09 Mar 2023 17:07:51 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>wrote:
>

>So, the Texas State Constitution does /not/ require everyone to pay
>property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
>surprised?

I'm obviously not a Texan but in our jurisdiction we have both
property taxes and a 'home owners' grant'. The taxes are all at the
same rate while the HOG is a fixed rate though houses assessed over a
certain figure lose part of their 'grant' for each $1000 of assessed
value. Can't remember the point at which the grant is reduced to zero
but it's in the $2 - 2.5 million range.

Then you get a fixed levy for utilities and schools (the former a
fixed levy, the latter based on your assessment - both these two go to
separate agencies but are colected by the municipality)

We also have a non-resident tax which is a surtax for those who don't
occupy their house and is aimed at "investors" who own multiple homes.
(A substantial number of which are foreigners particularly from China
- this is a form of money laundering and tax evasion which they
apparently can't ban but CAN tax so they do. No question there's one
suburb across town which has slum level average incomes but $2 - 2.5m
average houses. What's happening is that the husband lives overseas
and sends $$$ to his wife and kids living in Canada who pay token
taxes while tax evading by not declaring his foreign income while wife
and kids draw social benefits..... )

[Paul S Person]

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 16:50:48 -0800 (PST), William Hyde
<wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:

Our electric utility is talking about improving and strengthening the
infrastructure and increasing the (non-fossil-fuel [1]) supply to
accomodae the switch to heat pumps and home-charged electric cars.

Greater demand requires greater supply. And an infrastructure that
won't break down trying to provide it.

Of course, the rates will go up.

[1] Most of ours is non-fossil-fuel; but then, we have hydro power and
wind/sun now as well. When we have to buy it from others, of course,
we take what we can get without worrying about how it is generated.

[Jay E. Morris]

On 3/10/2023 10:47 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> So, the Texas State Constitution does/not/ require everyone to pay

> property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
> surprised?

The Texas State constitution does not require anyone to pay property tax.

From https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/property-tax/basics.php

The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
settle disputes between you and your local governments.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 3/10/2023 10:47 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

Texas does not have a state property tax. Or a state income tax. Or a
state death tax. Or a state wealth tax.

All property taxes in Texas are from the local governments: county,
school, city, levee, MUD, hospital, flood, etc. The state does regulate
how much the school districts can charge for their O&M (operations and
maintenance) budgets. And Texas regulates how much the taxing entities
can give a property tax credit for homeowners.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
Texas since the owners did not install heaters. And the wind stops
blowing when the temperature goes above 105 F. Useless. The windmill
output dropped from 38,000 MW to 1,500 MW during the first week ice
storm in Texas for 96 hours.

Solar in Texas does not work when it is covered by ice. Which, happens
more frequently than one realizes. Like, almost the entire first week
in February of this year for the entire central portion of Texas. The
solar output dropped from 12,000 MW peak to 1,500 MW peak for 96 hours
during and after the ice storm.

Lynn

[Scott Lurndal]

So do texas fossil fuel power plants, apparantly.

"Natural gas power generating facilities had equipment freeze up and faced shortages of fuel"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis

Note that northern plants don't have problems with freezing weather;
for fossil fuels _or_ wind. Wind is huge in Iowa, for instance.

[Paul S Person]

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:31:59 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
<mor...@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:

>On 3/10/2023 10:47 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> So, the Texas State Constitution does/not/ require everyone to pay
>> property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
>> surprised?
>
>The Texas State constitution does not require anyone to pay property tax.

Too bad the assertion was about requiring the /rate paid/ to be the
same for everyone (in the same taxing jurisdiction).

> From https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/property-tax/basics.php
>
>The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
>collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
>settle disputes between you and your local governments.

No State property tax?

[Paul S Person]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 15:16:17 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>>On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:

>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:

But ... but ... but ... those States are run by competent persons. At
least insofar as generating electricity goes.

Texas is run by ... Texans.

[William Hyde]

Our windmills do work. My complaint above was about the expensive
incentives offered. The whole program cost far too much (mind you,
the gas plant fiasco cost more).

But at least it got us off of coal. Aside from the reduction of ghg
emissions, smog days in Toronto are down by a factor of ten.

Not that smog was a problem here in bucolic North Etobicoke, but in
other parts of the city people with lung problems were advised to
stay indoors for thirty days a year or so, mostly in summer.

> Windmills suck in Texas. The blasted things freeze up below 25 F in
> Texas since the owners did not install heaters.

You could buy windmills from our people. Just read the contracts
carefully.

And the wind stops
> blowing when the temperature goes above 105 F.

In College Station that was my least favourite temperature. Above that the humidity
tends to drop, so 112 is actually more comfortable than 105. In my last summer
there we had three consecutive weeks of 105.

Useless. The windmill
> output dropped from 38,000 MW to 1,500 MW during the first week ice
> storm in Texas for 96 hours.

That's what the aforementioned gas plants are for. Again, it wasn't
wrong to build them, it was just done terribly for political reasons.

>
> Solar in Texas does not work when it is covered by ice. Which, happens
> more frequently than one realizes.

Twice in my eight years in College Station. But the panhandle
seems to get a real winter fairly often.

William Hyde

[Dimensional Traveler]

Apparently the important Texans don't believe it ever gets below
freezing in Texas.

[rksh...@rosettacondot.com]

I think the short summary is that everybody wants it fixed but nobody wants
to pay for it. Texas politicicians are as stupid, but not so stupid as to
believe that legislating things makes the cost go away. It will have to get
much more frequent before it gets addressed, at which point everyone will have
a meltdown because the cost of electricity will rise dramatically. EVs and heat
pumps are only going to make the problem worse...Texas is used to having
electricity consumption drop by half or more in the winter.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

[Lynn McGuire]

On 3/13/2023 10:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 16:31:59 -0500, "Jay E. Morris"
> <mor...@epsilon3.comcon> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/2023 10:47 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> So, the Texas State Constitution does/not/ require everyone to pay
>>> property tax at the same rate as everyone else? Why am I not
>>> surprised?
>>
>> The Texas State constitution does not require anyone to pay property tax.
>
> Too bad the assertion was about requiring the /rate paid/ to be the
> same for everyone (in the same taxing jurisdiction).
>
>> From https://comptroller.texas.gov/taxes/property-tax/basics.php
>>
>> The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
>> collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
>> settle disputes between you and your local governments.
>
> No State property tax?

Nope.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

That article has several misstatements in it.

The problem in Feb 2021 was that ERCOT shut off the power to the natural
gas fields and electric pipeline compressors and cratered the natural
gas system. By the time ERCOT realized what they had done, it was too
late. All of the natural gas well heads had frozen up. Natural gas has
water in it, it must keep flowing or else it freezes up, just like a
swimming pool.

Still, the bulk of the power in Feb 2021 was provided by nuclear - 5,000
MW, coal - 11,000 MW, and fuel oil / diesel - 30,000 MW for a total of
45,000 MW or so. Solar and wind power were almost immeasurable due to
ice and freeze up.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Note that we had two extreme freezes this winter and did not have
rotating power outages. ERCOT did not cut the power to the natural gas
fields or the electric pipeline compressors this time. ERCOT was able
to serve the 74,000 MW load using 600+ power plants with only 3,000 MW
of windmills and solar out of the 50,000 MW of windmills and solar
installed in Texas.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

The natural gas / fuel oil steam plants are an average of almost 60
years old. They were built in the 1950s to 1975. They take anywhere
from a day to a week to get started. They are around 40,000 MW.

The natural gas / diesel gas turbines were built from 1980 to now (there
is a company installing 200 of the 48 MW LM6000 units across Houston and
Dallas). About 20,000 MW. The simple cycle units take 22 minutes to 6
minutes to get started. The combined cycle units take 4 hours to a day
to get started, most of them never shut down completely.

Lynn


Lynn

[Lenona]

On Tuesday, March 7, 2023 at 3:55:21 PM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:

> >Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> >choice than it is today?
> >

> The state could subsidize them but that's communism. A more
> acceptable approach would be groinal pain clamps that deliver
> a slowly increasing discomfort to adults who have not have new-
> borns in, oh, let's say the last 8 months. Start at six pain
> units (where ten will trigger a lethal stroke) and then add
> one unit per month. Plus of course tax breaks for the rich
> but that goes without saying.

That reminds me of a few things.

One: A common saying (by more than one party) is "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."

But...but...imagine if the birthrate among the poor suddenly dropped by half.

Obviously, things would become a good deal more comfortable for the babies who are already here - they might even be living above the poverty level.

Where, then, would the future wage slaves and cannon fodder come from?

Bottom line: Conservatives don't really like it when large numbers of poor people stop having more than one child per woman - if that many. (I wonder how they feel about the teen pregnancy rate dropping, since most single women in their 20s flat-out refuse to give up their babies for adoption, unlike some teens?)

Check this chart out, too - it seems the birth rate among the poor has dropped quite a bit since 2005.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/562541/birth-rate-by-poverty-status-in-the-us/

Two: I have a theory that while there's no shortage of people who want to punish women - even MARRIED women - for having sex (60% of women who seek abortions already have children, btw), it's just as likely, maybe even more so, that there's a great deal of religious hostility toward any youngish person, male, female, rich or poor, who refuses to marry or have children - or have more than one child. I.e., even women who don't HAVE sex lives often get accused by their religious communities of not being real women or real adults.

(Unfortunately, plenty of liberals are also guilty of telling men to "man up" if the men refuse to marry or have children when their girlfriends start making demands. Liberals tend to forget that if women have the right to live unconventional, carefree lives, so do men. Of course, only the men who have good jobs - or who already have children - are under serious pressure by society to marry.)

[Joy Beeson]

On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:08:32 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
> choice than it is today?

We could start by allowing no-frills colleges to flourish. My nephew
and his wife would have liked to have more than two children, but that
was as many as they could educated.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

[Magewolf]

On 3/14/23 22:56, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 09:08:32 -0800 (PST), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Are there ways to make having kids a much more viable and desirable
>> choice than it is today?
>
> We could start by allowing no-frills colleges to flourish. My nephew
> and his wife would have liked to have more than two children, but that
> was as many as they could educated.
>

Or it would be cheaper and easier to just cut out all the college degree
overreach. I was about to write most of the jobs where I work would not
need degrees when I was young but thinking about it for us it would be
less than half since we run a rather lean ship and even back in the day
most of us would have needed degrees of some sort. However nowadays I
can not think of anyone who works here who did not go to college. And
it is much worse at most companies.

[Dimensional Traveler]

The real issue is that universities and colleges have gotten out of the
mindset of "We are here to educate" and into the mindset of "We are here
to be the most prestigious!" So in pursuit of that prestige they
compete to hire professors that the general population has never heard
of but are "big names" in academic circles. Which results in exorbitant
salaries that drive up the costs of a college degree.

[Lynn McGuire]

The problem with winter time electricity consumption in Texas is that
the weather is either moderate or cold or bitterly cold. The forecasts
are worthless a week out so ERCOT must be prepared. It costs money for
power plants to be manned around the clock so no one is at the power
plant if it is offline. Offline = zero income.

Texas is now changing the rules so that if the power plant is available
during emergencies, that power plant will be paid extra money for being
online. This is a departure from Texas's only paying for electricity
output.

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

The phrase that comes to mind is "Paying for the ability to _have_
electricity output." If you aren't willing to pay to keep the
facilities that make electricity in working order, you aren't going to
have electricity. Seems pretty self-evident to me.

[Paul S Person]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:45:13 -0700, Dimensional Traveler

<dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 3/15/2023 3:36 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/13/2023 3:20 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/13/2023 8:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> Lynn McGuire <lynnmc...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 6:50 PM, William Hyde wrote:

>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 3:02:43?PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/11/2023 1:19 PM, William Hyde wrote:

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if any /other/ State finds it
necessary to do this? Or is these purely a Texas Republican "thang"?

[Jay E. Morris]

He didn't say they weren't in working order, he said they were off line,
temporarily shutdown. Now companies will be paid to keep them on line,
available for an emergency.

[Dimensional Traveler]

I don't _know_ but I suspect it is a "Texas thang". Mostly because
Texas is its own electrical grid. There are three electric grids
covering the US and users in a grid can, in theory at least, get power
from anywhere else in that grid. There is one for the western US, one
for the eastern US, and Texas. So Texas has chosen to isolate itself
and can't draw on outside sources in an emergency.

[pete...@gmail.com]

Have peaking power plants sit (expensively) on standby? Yes, it's a
normal part of running a grid.

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaking_power_plant

Pt

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <tuvfgk$1ft6n$1...@dont-email.me>,

(Hal Heydt)
Texas has refused to become part of either of the main US
interconnect power systems in order to avoid being subject to
some Federal regulations. So...yeah. A Texas thang.

This leads to the problem that Texas can't get power from
elsewhere if their own generation is insufficient, nor can they
sell power to anyone else if they have a surplus. Thus, most of
their power issues are self-inflicted.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Right, I had forgotten about the Federal regulation excuse. Thank you
for the reminder.

[Lynn McGuire]

See my posting above. These statements are incorrect as Texas has DC
interties with the east and west grids.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Yes, When I worked for TXU we had four steam boiler plants (350 MW, 350
MW, 425 MW, 425 MW) that could be started in 30 minutes if they were hot
(steam turbine > 300 F) or 4 hours if cold. We also had fifteen GE
Frame 7 gas turbines that required 22 minutes for a start, cold or hot,
for 65 MW each in the summer (100+ F ambient) or 85 MW (30+- F ambient)
each in the winter.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

There are five grids in the USA. You forgot Hawaii and Alaska. I do
not know if the southern grid in Alaska extends up into the Fairbanks
area but I doubt it.

And then there are other grids in the protectorates. Puerto Rico has a
single grid. Japan has a 50 hz grid and a 60 hz grid. The others are
mostly single gridded.

And actually, Texas is not isolated. There are several DC interties
between ERCOT and the east and west grids. DC interties are not
regulated by FERC. But during the Feb 2021 rotating blackouts, there
was no available power on the east and west grids.
https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/dctieflows
from
https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards

Lynn

[pete...@gmail.com]

Hawaii has a separate grid for each island. The water depths between
them, and the distances, make under sea cables impractical.

https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Hawaii#Electricity

In Alaska, the Willow–Healy Intertie connects the Anchorage area grid
with the Fairbanks area grid. There's a separate grid for the
Panhandle area. The rest of the state is not networked.

Pt

[Lynn McGuire]

The undersea cables can go quite a way. They are considering putting a
power cable from the USA mainland to Puerto Rico, 1,500 miles. "Next Big
Idea In Electricity: Subsea Cable From The Mainland To Puerto Rico"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/llewellynking/2023/01/24/next-big-idea-in-electricity-subsea-cable-from-the-mainland-to-puerto-rico/?sh=50d511e912bc

"The big thinking is to provide electricity by subsea cable to
storm-vulnerable Puerto Rico. At 1,500-miles, it would be the longest
U.S. cable of its type, but about a third shorter than a cable now
planned between Morocco and Britain."

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

On 3/16/2023 10:27 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

BTW, you are correct, I should have said there are at least five grids
in the USA.

Thanks,
Lynn

[pete...@gmail.com]

I looked into it a few years ago, mainly with the thought of using geothermal energy from
the Big Island. Locals informed me that it had been investigated and considered too difficult.
The nature of the ocean is different - a PR/US cable can run on the continental shelf,
while the water between the Hawaiian islands is of abyssal depth.
Perhaps they were wrong, perhaps things changed.

Also, PR has 3.2 million people, Hawaii, less than 1.5.

pt

[Dimensional Traveler]

The fact that the Hawaiian Islands still have active volcanoes may be a
factor too.

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 09:28:06 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

But is bribing the power plants to do it a normal part of running the
grid?

[Lynn McGuire]

Every state except for Texas pays power plants a capacity charge for
connecting to the grid. Texas moved to an energy payment system only
back in 1999 ??? when the for profit electricity providers (TXU, HLP,
CSW, etc) were separated into regulated (power transmission and electric
meter sales) and unregulated (power generation).

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/explainer/article/texas-electric-deregulation-ERCOT-TCAP-7971360.php

Lynn

[The Horny Goat]

On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:46:12 -0700, Paul S Person
<pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
>>collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
>>settle disputes between you and your local governments.
>
>No State property tax?

Why are you so surprised? There isn't a provincial level property tax
anywhere in Canada (where the right to levy property taxes is the
exclusive jurisdiction of municipalities)

(In Canada there is no capital gains tax on the sale of your primary
residence though unlike the US there's no deduction on your mortgate
payments either)

[Scott Lurndal]

The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> writes:
>On Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:46:12 -0700, Paul S Person
><pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>The Texas Constitution and statutory law authorizes local governments to
>>>collect the tax. The state does not set tax rates, collect taxes or
>>>settle disputes between you and your local governments.
>>
>>No State property tax?
>
>Why are you so surprised? There isn't a provincial level property tax
>anywhere in Canada (where the right to levy property taxes is the
>exclusive jurisdiction of municipalities)

"If your property is not located in a city, town, district
or village, it is in a rural area. When you own property
or lease Crown land in a rural area, you will receive your
property tax notice from the province's Surveyor of Taxes
Office every June. You pay your property taxes to the province."

[Lee Gleason]

On 3/6/2023 12:06 PM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> We've had a ton of books over the past 50 years dealing with overpopulation.
>
> We've also had a ton of books where the human race gets killed off real
> good, whether by meteors, hungry aliens, infertility/disease, zombies
> or nuclear war. Most stories (not all) end with a few viewpoint humans
> left, often with an implication that they will repopulate the Earth.
>
> We're now looking at a new threat: demographic collapse. We aren't
> having enough babies[1]. Quite aside from the economic burden of
> a shrinking working population supporting a massive overhang of
> elderly over the next few decades, we have fewer and fewer people
> entering parental age. Like overpopulation, this feeds back on itself.
>
> Have any stories dealt with trying to reverse this?
>
> pt
>
> [1] Yes, I know sub saharan Africa and a few other countries don't have
> this problem, but we're in an SF group - I can specify the parameters.
>
>
"Implosion" by DF Jones. Great ending.

--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
lee.g...@comcast.net

[The Horny Goat]

On Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:22:52 GMT, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

OK you got me there - though again, if you live in an "organized area"
(e.g. city, town, village, regional district) you pay them. That's at
most 1% of the population - but I DID say 'isn't' so you're right and
I'm not.

However there are LOTS of 'rural areas' within organized
municipalities. Surrey, BC is an excellent example and they have a
population north of 1/2 million.