Greg Bear - which to read first
Clark McIvor
I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
_Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
_The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
_Moving Mars_
_Psychlone_
_Queen of Angels_
Which can be put on the end of the to-read shelves?
Any other "must haves"?
Thanks
Jane
---
clar...@gil.com.au : Clark McIvor - Brisbane, Australia
James Nicoll
Clark McIvor <clar...@gil.com.au> wrote:
>Hi all,
>I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
>reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
>
>Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
>
>_Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
Eon is pretty but stupid. The two sequels are Eon's ugly
but also stupid siblings (One of them has a plot that doesn't matter
and the other doesn't have a plot).
>_The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
Moronic aliens in the first one but I seem to recall the second
one had its moments.
>_Moving Mars_
Related to but not closely linked to _Queen of Angels_. Cultural
conflict between backwards Mars and advanced Earth.
>_Queen of Angels_
A mystery/exploration of the nature of consciousness, using
a murder investigation and a star probe (unrelated) as props.
--
"About this time, I started getting depressed. Probably the late
hour and the silence. I decided to put on some music.
Boy, that Billie Holiday can sing."
_Why I Hate Saturn_, Kyle Baker
Niall McAuley
> Any other "must haves"?
I liked _Blood Music_, but _Eon_ and _The Forge of God_ were not
good enough to encourage me to read more Bear. Others on this
newsgroup who agreed that those were not great still said I
should give _Queen of Angels_ a try, and someday I will.
--
Niall [real address ends in se, not es.invalid]
Allan Griffith
says...
> I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
> reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
>
> Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
>
> _Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
> _The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
> _Moving Mars_
> _Psychlone_
> _Queen of Angels_
>
>
> Which can be put on the end of the to-read shelves?
_Eternity_ can go straight into the trash can. _Eon_ is pretty good, but
_Eternity_ is one of the worst sequels you're ever going to come across.
I liked his _Strength of Stones_ rather a lot, and _The Infinity
Concerto_ (which is fantasy) is interesting.
The best thing he's ever written IMHO is a short story called PETRA
(which was included in Bruce Sterling's cyberpunk anthology MIRRORSHADES,
although the story is most definitely not cyberpunk).
Al
Dan Swartzendruber
> In article <01c2f1a1$335c2260$LocalHost@kenmcivo>,
> Clark McIvor <clar...@gil.com.au> wrote:
>
> >_The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
>
> Moronic aliens in the first one but I seem to recall the second
> one had its moments.
Summarizing TFoG by "moronic aliens" is a little odd...
James Nicoll
Paul F. Dietz
> The best thing he's ever written IMHO is a short story called PETRA
> (which was included in Bruce Sterling's cyberpunk anthology MIRRORSHADES,
> although the story is most definitely not cyberpunk).
I haven't read that, but I have enjoyed 'Judgment Engine' and 'Hardfought'.
Paul
Ron Henry
news:01c2f1a1$335c2260$LocalHost@kenmcivo...
> I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
> reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
>
> Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
If you have Eon in hand, you should probably start there, though you
might want to start searching used bookstores for Eternity so you can
continue right on into it.
> _Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
Fun books. Lots of people whine about the "dubious science", others
whine about shaky characterization. I enjoyed it a lot when I read it,
the ideas and the scope swept me along and more than adequately
suspended disbelief. Eternity gets a little less coherent, plotwise, but
is still well worth reading. Legacy is kind of a side novel, and has a
more subdued and slower feel than the other two.
If you end up grooving on the series/setting, there's a novella that's
been anthologized in a couple places called "The Way of all Ghosts".
> _The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
I liked these. End of the world books. A bit brooding and grim. I recall
that a couple scenes in the second book were so sad and affecting they
moved me to tears. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though.
> _Queen of Angels_
> _Moving Mars_
These two, along with Heads and [slant] (also known as / ), are
generally set in the same universe, though the plots don't depend on
each other. Heads (really a novella, but published as a separate book)
and Q of A are great, the other two "merely" very good. I'd certainly
recommend them all.
> _Psychlone_
I haven't read this one. Some other of his early novels (Strength of
Stones and Hegira) I did enjoy reading, many years ago. I never read
the Star Trek novel he wrote (Corona).
Also, have you read Blood Music? It's one of his most famous works. Some
people will steer you away from the novel version and say the
novella-length version is vastly superior. Either one is well worth a
read. Note that for a lot of the novellas and short fiction (including
the Way story and the original Blood Music), a "Collected Stories"
volume recently came out and is certainly worth reading.
His more recent novel, Darwin's Radio, I was less enthused about, and
imagine I'll feel the same about its just-released sequel, Darwin's
Children. I really couldn't buy the biology, interesting as the idea is
abstractly, or the characters, who drove me nuts.
Ron
Dan Swartzendruber
> In article <MPG.18e8c9b38...@news.supernews.net>,
> Dan Swartzendruber <dsw...@druber.com> wrote:
> >In article <b5mtos$r04$1...@panix3.panix.com>, jdni...@panix.com says...
> >> In article <01c2f1a1$335c2260$LocalHost@kenmcivo>,
> >> Clark McIvor <clar...@gil.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> >_The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
> >>
> >> Moronic aliens in the first one but I seem to recall the second
> >> one had its moments.
> >
> >Summarizing TFoG by "moronic aliens" is a little odd...
> >
> OK, Earth is threatened by moronic aliens.
but it wasn't, that was my point. anyone who summarizes it that way
obviously didn't read more than ever 3rd sentence...
Niall McAuley
> Summarizing TFoG by "moronic aliens" is a little odd...
How about "Cool short story spoiled by idiotic padding"
or "Several cool scenes connected by nonsense"?
Dan Swartzendruber
Niall....@eei.ericsson.es.invalid says...
> "Dan Swartzendruber" <dsw...@druber.com> wrote in message news:MPG.18e8c9b38...@news.supernews.net...
> > Summarizing TFoG by "moronic aliens" is a little odd...
>
> How about "Cool short story spoiled by idiotic padding"
> or "Several cool scenes connected by nonsense"?
Hmmm, I guess this is one of those YMMV deals. It wasn't a particularly
strong novel, but it was hardly that wretched, IMO, of course..
Mark
I'd start with "Moving Mars"--it's a stand-alone, but shares some of
the background of "Queen of Angels" and "Slant". I'd also try to find
"Darwin's Radio", which I thought was quite well done, and "Blood
Music" which is pretty damn good. I enjoyed "Strength of Stones" as
well and teh collection "Wind From A Burning Woman" is excellent.
Mark
author of:
COMPASS REACH
METAL OF NIGHT
PEACE & MEMORY (forthcoming)
www.marktiedemann.com
James Nicoll
Jon Meltzer <jmeltzer.at.pobox.com> wrote:
>On 24 Mar 2003 07:57:42 -0500, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <MPG.18e8c9b38...@news.supernews.net>,
>>Dan Swartzendruber <dsw...@druber.com> wrote:
>>>In article <b5mtos$r04$1...@panix3.panix.com>, jdni...@panix.com says...
>>>> In article <01c2f1a1$335c2260$LocalHost@kenmcivo>,
>>>> Clark McIvor <clar...@gil.com.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >_The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
>>>>
>>>> Moronic aliens in the first one but I seem to recall the second
>>>> one had its moments.
>>>
>>>Summarizing TFoG by "moronic aliens" is a little odd...
>>>
>> OK, Earth is threatened by moronic aliens.
>
>great cover typos.
>
?
Steinn Sigurdsson
> Hi all,
> I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
> reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
> Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
> _Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
First one was good when written, maybe dated now.
Sequels suffer from sequlitis.
> _The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
First one is most comprehensive "how to really
destroy the Earth if you're evil invading aliens" ever,
sequel is wishfulfillment fantasy, but good kick-alien-butt fantasy.
> _Moving Mars_
Ok semi-sequel
> _Psychlone_
???
> _Queen of Angels_
Very good, recommended. Probably my favourite Bear book.
Also read Slant and Blood Music.
Darwin's Radio is interesting what-if, but over-extrapolates
a somewhat dated bit of fringe biological conjecturing
I didn't like his early stuff (Hegira etc) but YMMV
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
<ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> wrote:
>> _Psychlone_
>
>???
Pretty bad - angry spirits of people killed by atomic bomb at
Hiroshima drift through the US, causing mayhem as they go.
wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu
> Hi all,
> I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
> reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
>
> Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
>
> _Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
I liked Eon a lot, though it has dated somewhat. The other
two had good moments (some very good*), but at times tended
to drag. If you really like Eon, give the next a try.
> _The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
I like these. True, as James says, one can question the
sanity of he aliens in the first book. Bear should have
resisted including some of his ideas. On the whole, though
a very good read. The sequel may be even better, though here
I'm a bit sorry he didn't show us more of the aliens.
> _Moving Mars_
This I didn't find very interesting. Had a YA feel to it.
> Which can be put on the end of the to-read shelves?
>
> Any other "must haves"?
If you like fantasy at all I strongly recommend his
"Songs of Earth and Power". Original and well done.
Bear is in my "buy on sight" list. The only novel of his
I didn't finish was "Darwin's Radio". I have erased from
my mind the "Foundation" sequels. Either he or Brin wrote
the only one that I found readable. I no longer recall
which of them managed that feat, I only know it wasn't
Benford, much as I like his work when he isn't doing
sequels to other people's novels.
(*) For example, the other day I was out walking when
I suddenly recalled half of a very good short story.
But I couldn't recall the rest. I was quite frustrated
for while, until I finally remembered that it was a fragment
of "eternity".
William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University
Dan Swartzendruber
ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu says...
> "Clark McIvor" <clar...@gil.com.au> writes:
> > _The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
>
> First one is most comprehensive "how to really
> destroy the Earth if you're evil invading aliens" ever,
> sequel is wishfulfillment fantasy, but good kick-alien-butt fantasy.
i liked the pseudo-science stuff in the latter...
rmtodd
> I liked _Blood Music_, but _Eon_ and _The Forge of God_ were not
> good enough to encourage me to read more Bear. Others on this
I liked "Blood Music" the original short story; the novel IMHO is one of the
canonical examples of short stories that suck when later expanded to novel
length. The story was better when it ended with (spoiler warning):
the guy dissolving into goo in his bathtub.
Ian Galbraith
wrote:
>Hi all,
>I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
>reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
>
>Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
>
>_Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
>_The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
>_Moving Mars_
>_Psychlone_
>_Queen of Angels_
>
>
>Which can be put on the end of the to-read shelves?
>
>Any other "must haves"?
His best is a fantasy IMHO, Songs of Earth and Power, which is a
compendium edition of 2 novels: The Infinity Concerto and The Serpent
Mage. Of his SF Moving Mars, Queen of Angels and Slant are his best
followed by Eon and Blood Music. The rest you can take or leave.
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@removeozonline.com.au
"Being cool requires no work. Mostly it requires detachment. You can
be cool and not care about being cool. Being hip requires both style
and effort. You can't be hip without working at it."
- Players: The A.I. War by Daniel Keys Moran
William December Starr
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>>>> _The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
>>>
>>> Moronic aliens in the first one but I seem to recall the
>>> second one had its moments.
>>
>> Summarizing TFoG by "moronic aliens" is a little odd...
>> [Dan Swartzendruber]
>
> OK, Earth is threatened by moronic aliens.
"Earth is threatened by moronic aliens with a Tech Level of
three gazillion?"
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
William December Starr
Allan Griffith <agri4042@REMOVE_THIS.bigpond.net.au> said:
> _Eternity_ can go straight into the trash can. _Eon_ is pretty
> good, but _Eternity_ is one of the worst sequels you're ever going
> to come across.
Unless, of course, there were to be any sequels to _Rendezvous With
Rama_ written with the involvement of someone with the initials "GL,"
but of course there aren't.
Seriously, I wouldn't rate _Eternity_ as "bad." Just "not any good."
William December Starr
Steinn Sigurdsson <ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> said:
>> _The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
>
> First one is most comprehensive "how to really destroy the Earth if
> you're evil invading aliens" ever, sequel is wishfulfillment
> fantasy, but good kick-alien-butt fantasy.
Hmm. I came away from _Anvil_ thinking that it was quite a sad
story, something close to a tragedy of sorts.
I guess it depends on whether you believe that...
spoiler space...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
...(1) the children had the capability of positively identifying Bad
Guy worlds -- before or after reducing them to powder -- or (2) there
really wasn't any way for them to tell the real thing from a decoy or
a frame-up job, and therefore they just couldn't win and might in
fact be blowing up innocent civilizations along the way.
I leaned towards the latter supposition myself.
Htn963
>> _Moving Mars_
>
> This I didn't find very interesting. Had a YA feel to it.
Because the protagonist started out as a YA? I didn't find it YA but just
silly, mainly due to the heavyhanded handwaving physics.
--
Ht
|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|
Laila Wolf
<wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu> wrote in message
news:yv7zisu8...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu...
> "> I liked Eon a lot, though it has dated somewhat. The other
> two had good moments (some very good*), but at times tended
> to drag. If you really like Eon, give the next a try.
Spoiler for Eon-sequel-prequel=
=
=
=
=
=
=
=
Eon is not dated at all! At one time, I also thought that this book deserved
a rewrite because of the USSR, etc. Upon a recent flip through the book, I
changed my mind.
If you accept the whole weird premise that they can use their clevicles to
open up portals into worlds on different timelines, then there cannot be a
problem by definition. Your only problem is that he didn't start in our time
dimension, but in one where the USSR continued to be a major power until the
arrival of the potato. This is no less plausible than a modern Egypt ruled
by pharohs.
What I found strange about the books is something different entirely. It
depicts the people from thousands of years in the future clinging to some
'cultural heritage' from which their still totally human progenitors came.
Why would anyone choose USSR as they do in the book? If for some strange
reason one felt compelled to claim Russian ancestry, it would be more
plausible to look to the era of the Romanovs and not the soviets. The way
that modern western society prefers to look back to ancient Greece rather
than Rome. In our eyes, the great societies were just a spit away from each
other, when in reality their 'golden eras' were centuries apart.
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
> I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
> reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
> Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
> _Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
> _The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
> _Moving Mars_
> _Psychlone_
> _Queen of Angels_
> Which can be put on the end of the to-read shelves?
> Any other "must haves"?
Greg's one of my favorite authors, but he's very variable in quality.
_Songs of Earth and Power_ (previously published in a slightly
different form as _The Infinity Concerto_ and _The Serpent Mage_--get
Songs), _Queen of Angels_, _Moving Mars_, _/_ (aka Slant), _Heads_, and
_Hegira_ are his best work. If you can find the short story of "Blood
Music", get that, too.
_Psychlone_, _Beyond Heaven's River_, _Dinosaur Summer_, and the novel
of _Blood Music_ were okay, nothing great. Probably the same for
_Strength of Stones_, since I've read it but don't recall it at all, and
I always remember when I love or hate a Greg Bear book.
I liked _Anvil of Stars_ enough to make up for TFoG, but _Eon_ misled
me into reading his _Eternity_ and _Legacy_. _Eon_'s much better if you
think of it as pulp adventure with a transhumanist setting than as any
kind of serious SF; it's not "turn your brain off" material, but "turn
your suspension of disbelief off".
_Darwin's Radio_ is so atrociously bad I can't believe he wasn't
hunted through the streets and beaten by everyone with even a high
school science education. It's not even a good thriller to make up for
the awful awful science. Burn before reading.
I have not yet read _Vitals_, but it's on the read-me-soon stack.
His short story collections are good stuff, if you can find them.
He's vastly better at short stories than novels, and many of his novels
are basically a collection of short stories interleaved.
I still buy pretty much anything he writes; only half of his books are
really great, but those are so good I want to read more.
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"We remain convinced that this is the best defensive posture to adopt in
order to minimize casualties when the Great Old Ones return from beyond
the stars to eat our brains." -Charlie Stross, _The Concrete Jungle_
Joseph Nebus
>I haven't read this one. Some other of his early novels (Strength of
>Stones and Hegira) I did enjoy reading, many years ago. I never read
>the Star Trek novel he wrote (Corona).
Enterprise is sent to rescue the survivors of a Way Out In The
Middle Of Nowhere research station using the new transporter surgical
repair unit; unfortunately, the artificial intelligence governing the
machinery seems likely to declare the hibernating survivors are really
dead and refuse to work. Meanwhile they run into an alien life force
from the really early universe, and we all learn a little something
special about quasars.
I remember the beginning and the end of the story, and while
I know there's a middle somewhere in there I can't actually prove it.
The revelations of the alien are neat if you don't notice that once
we figure out what it is and what it wants it's pretty much the end
of the book and there's not much Kirk and company get to do to with
the consequences. (But that's a fault a lot of hard science fiction
has; we puzzle out a nifty mystery and establish a sometimes logical
result of a premise, and that's the end of the story.)
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu
> In article <rx7isu8...@najma.astro.psu.edu>,
> Steinn Sigurdsson <ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> said:
>
> >> _The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
> >
> > First one is most comprehensive "how to really destroy the Earth if
> > you're evil invading aliens" ever, sequel is wishfulfillment
> > fantasy, but good kick-alien-butt fantasy.
>
> Hmm. I came away from _Anvil_ thinking that it was quite a sad
> story, something close to a tragedy of sorts.
So did I.
> I guess it depends on whether you believe that...
>
> spoiler space...
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
>
> ...(1) the children had the capability of positively identifying Bad
> Guy worlds -- before or after reducing them to powder -- or (2) there
> really wasn't any way for them to tell the real thing from a decoy or
> a frame-up job, and therefore they just couldn't win and might in
> fact be blowing up innocent civilizations along the way.
>
> I leaned towards the latter supposition myself.
(3) They got the Bad Guy system. By a good guess rather than
by certainty, which should be rather scary for the inhabitants
of other systems in the area. And 99% of the inhabitants
of that system were entirely innocent. Perhaps only the
staircase god and his ilk were really guilty.
wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu
> wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
>
> >> _Moving Mars_
> >
> > This I didn't find very interesting. Had a YA feel to it.
>
> Because the protagonist started out as a YA?
Doubtless that is part of it. But the book didn't seem to
grow as the protagonist did.
I didn't find it YA but just
> silly, mainly due to the heavyhanded handwaving physics.
Frankly I can't recall much of the science. I tend to
forget handwavy stuff, probably because I don't pay much
attention to it once the author loses my wsod.
It is interesting to see how many people consider this
to be one of his best SF novels. Maybe I should put it
on my long, long, long, list of novels to try again.
wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu
> <wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu> wrote in message
> news:yv7zisu8...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu...
> > "> I liked Eon a lot, though it has dated somewhat. The other
> > two had good moments (some very good*), but at times tended
> > to drag. If you really like Eon, give the next a try.
>
>
> Spoiler for Eon-sequel-prequel=
> =
> =
> =
> =
> =
> =
> =
>
> Eon is not dated at all! At one time, I also thought that this book deserved
> a rewrite because of the USSR, etc. Upon a recent flip through the book, I
> changed my mind.
>
> If you accept the whole weird premise that they can use their clevicles to
> open up portals into worlds on different timelines, then there cannot be a
> problem by definition. Your only problem is that he didn't start in our time
> dimension, but in one where the USSR continued to be a major power until the
> arrival of the potato. This is no less plausible than a modern Egypt ruled
> by pharohs.
That is a fair comment, I should have thought of it myself.
Though I was thinking more of "nuclear winter", which was
dated when the book came out.
It is still a good book I would happily reread.
Steinn Sigurdsson
> On 25 Mar 2003 01:04:13 -0500, wds...@panix.com (William December
> Starr) wrote:
> >In article <MPG.18e9ab235...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> >Allan Griffith <agri4042@REMOVE_THIS.bigpond.net.au> said:
> >> _Eternity_ can go straight into the trash can. _Eon_ is pretty
> >> good, but _Eternity_ is one of the worst sequels you're ever going
> >> to come across.
> >Unless, of course, there were to be any sequels to _Rendezvous With
> >Rama_ written with the involvement of someone with the initials "GL,"
> >but of course there aren't.
> Not even the worst hack publisher would think of producing sequels to
> "Rendezvous with Rama". Let's be thankful for some decency in this
> world.
And if they had, I'm sure the sell-through would be appallingly
low, conclusively showing to the publisher that such sequels
could not be very good, or even liked by the great book buying public,
and therefore there would never be a sequel to the sequel, much
less a sequel to the sequel to the sequel...
Craig Richardson
The biggest problem I had with _Corona_ is that IMO it's not a ST
novel. The presence of Kirk & Co. is a fix-up, grafted on to an
existing novel, replacing pre-existing characters that were
superficially similar. A number of authors have, by now, retconned
pretty much every aspect of the ST universe, and books like _The
Squick of the Phoenix_ and _How Much For Just The Planet?_ stretch the
characters out of shape like so many Gumbies - but I have never gotten
less sense of place out of any ST novel than out of _Corona_.
Not that that makes it a *bad* book. It's fine for what it is. It
ain't drek. But it ain't Trek, either.
--Craig
--
"I suspect it will not have a large negative effect since the
sentence ‘This war has me not wanting to look at naked women’
has never been uttered." --Greg Salsburg
123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789
Craig Thomson
wrote:
>Hi all,
>I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
>reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
>
>Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
>
>_Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
I loved Eon, it was the first SF book that I had read and it blew me
away. I have re-read it several times since. Eternity was still good
but not at the same level. I just managed to wade my way through
Legacy.
Craig
Charlie Stross
as <jdni...@panix.com> declared:
>>> >_The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
>>>
>>> Moronic aliens in the first one but I seem to recall the second
>>> one had its moments.
>>
>>Summarizing TFoG by "moronic aliens" is a little odd...
>>
> OK, Earth is threatened by moronic aliens.
Wrong.
Completely wrong.
I think you missed something. These two, between them, are probably the
most chilling -- and terrifyingly believable -- account of an alien
contact/invasion scenario I've ever read in SF.
SPOILER:
The "moronic aliens" are sock puppets designed to distract attention
from the real threat. And by the end of "Anvil of Stars", it is by
no means clear that the human survivors haven't themselves merely
graduated from victim to sock puppet in an interstellar cold war
the scope of which is so enormous that they don't know how long it's
been going on for, how much space it rages across, or who the real
combatants are.
Deeply disturbing -- in a way that, e.g. Sean Willams and Shane Dix's
current trilogy (Echoes of Earth, Orphans of Earth, and ???) doesn't
touch, despite the superficial similarities of theme.
Peter D. Tillman
Charlie Stross <cha...@antipope.org> wrote:
Second to Charlie, here -- I'm surprised that tFoG doesn't get more
respect here. I thought this was a masterful book, with truly alien
psychopathic worldkillers. Nicely paced, nice unfolding of the grim,
unstoppable attack. And a truly explosive climax <GG>. Definitely
top-rank Bear, right up there with Queen of Angels and /.
The sequel was a big letdown, I thought -- a pointless revenge-fantasy,
explaining things better left alone. Avoid.
Cheers -- Pete Tillman
Book Reviews: http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/reviewer.html#tillman
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/A3GHSD9VY8XS4Q/
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/iplus/nonfiction/index.htm#reviews
http://www.sfsite.com/revwho.htm
Niall McAuley
news:slrnb844ul....@raq981.uk2net.com.antipope.org...
>
> Wrong.
>
> Completely wrong.
Nope, I agree with the moron theory.
The bad aliens dropped a neutronium matter/anti-matter bomb
into the earth's core, but they put a time delay on it for no
reason so that they could screw around putting on the Muppet
show in the desert in the US so that the short story could be
padded to novel length and the White Hats could arrive and rescue
enough humans to guarantee a sequel.
Meanwhile the bad guys screw around on the ocean floor making
H-bombs because, well, just because the aliens did shit like
that in "The Kraken Wakes", only it made sense then.
Blowing up H-bombs along fault lines before detonating your
planet-busting antimatter weapon makes as much sense as
scoring the skin of an apple before putting a .50 sniper
round through it. Do the sums, it's moronic.
I have some sympathy for stories like the movie "Signs",
where things make no sense because they are seen from the
viewpoint of someone who doesn't understand what the fuck
is going on, and _Forge of God_ starts out that way.
Then it makes the mistake of explaining what's going on,
and what's going on is that the bad aliens are cretins.
--
Niall [real address ends in net, not ten.invalid]
phil hunt
>>>> >_The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
>
>most chilling -- and terrifyingly believable -- account of an alien
>contact/invasion scenario I've ever read in SF.
I imagine contact with aliens would quite likely be immediately
followed by them destroying us, if they thought our technology was
in danger of superceding theirs anytime soon. We can't live
peacefully with our own species -- what hope that we could with
another?
--
|*|*| Philip Hunt <ph...@cabalamat.org> |*|*|
|*|*| "Memes are a hoax; pass it on" |*|*|
Bryan Derksen
<til...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote:
>Second to Charlie, here -- I'm surprised that tFoG doesn't get more
>respect here. I thought this was a masterful book, with truly alien
>psychopathic worldkillers. Nicely paced, nice unfolding of the grim,
>unstoppable attack. And a truly explosive climax <GG>. Definitely
>top-rank Bear, right up there with Queen of Angels and /.
I think the thing that turned me off of Forge of God was that both the
"good" and "evil" combatants were so incredibly far out of humanity's
league that there was really no point in having them interact with
humanity at all. The attackers' various deceptions and tricks were
totally irrelevant; by the time they deployed them, they'd already
dumped enough antineutronium into Earth's core that the planet's
destruction was completely and utterly inevitable. There was nothing
humanity could have possibly done to save itself, even if we'd known
for a hundred years exactly what was coming. How do you stop an
antineutronium asteroid from falling?
Likewise, the "good guy" combatants have such overwhelming
capabilities available that they waste the time and effort to throw
Europa at Mars as part of a long-term terraforming project while
they're still in the midst of trying to fight the bad guy combatants
out in the asteroid belt and also spirit away a population of humans
from under the bad guys' noses. They do take on a few human "agents"
on the ground to handle gathering together a handpicked group of
refugees, but even here there's nothing the humans can do to influence
events; they're handed their assignments and complete them unopposed,
because the bad guys apparently aren't interested in that part of the
good guy operation.
So in the end, the book is just a bunch of characters helplessly (and
for the most part cluelessly) watching events unfold, with both sides
of the actual combatants wasting a lot of time on irrelevancies in the
process. Didn't like it, nope.
Of course, opinions may differ. :)
Charlie Stross
SPOILERS (for The Forge of God/The Anvil of Stars):
Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
as <wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu> declared:
...
>> ...(1) the children had the capability of positively identifying Bad
>> Guy worlds -- before or after reducing them to powder -- or (2) there
>> really wasn't any way for them to tell the real thing from a decoy or
>> a frame-up job, and therefore they just couldn't win and might in
>> fact be blowing up innocent civilizations along the way.
>>
>> I leaned towards the latter supposition myself.
>
> (3) They got the Bad Guy system. By a good guess rather than
> by certainty, which should be rather scary for the inhabitants
> of other systems in the area. And 99% of the inhabitants
> of that system were entirely innocent. Perhaps only the
> staircase god and his ilk were really guilty.
I don't agree, because I think you're being humanocentric in your
reading of the two books. There is an incredibly grim ironic parallel
between the way humanity is nearly rendered extinct in the first book
('moronic aliens show up and open dialog; someone goes around collecting
data/people; world explodes') and the way the children treat the Bad
Guy system in the second book.
In fact, it looks as if the children are sock-puppets working for
the entirely automated (self-reproducing?) Ship of the Law, which is
functionally identical to the berserkers that destroyed Earth in
the first place. They may very well have been lied to about the nature
of the bad guys, about the Law, and about what they're doing. Remember,
children are malleable, impressionable, and trainable -- why are there
no adults on board, *really*?
There is the possibility that they really are right; after all,
they've seen one of the alien species before. But in this universe,
species spread (if only as useful sock-puppets aboard robot warships)
and there's no guarantee that they originated here. In fact, given the
number of species living in the final system the "Dawn Treader" visits,
they almost certainly didn't.
If you take "Anvil of Stars" at face value, it looks like a childish
revenge fantasy. But Bear is a subtle writer, and when you start peeling
away the layers you find that a very unpleasant tragedy (in the classical
sense of the term) nestling inside a much more ambiguous story.
-- Charlie
wth...@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu
> SPOILERS (for The Forge of God/The Anvil of Stars):
>
>
>
>
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu> declared:
> ...
> >> ...(1) the children had the capability of positively identifying Bad
> >> Guy worlds -- before or after reducing them to powder -- or (2) there
> >> really wasn't any way for them to tell the real thing from a decoy or
> >> a frame-up job, and therefore they just couldn't win and might in
> >> fact be blowing up innocent civilizations along the way.
> >>
> >> I leaned towards the latter supposition myself.
> >
> > (3) They got the Bad Guy system. By a good guess rather than
> > by certainty, which should be rather scary for the inhabitants
> > of other systems in the area. And 99% of the inhabitants
> > of that system were entirely innocent. Perhaps only the
> > staircase god and his ilk were really guilty.
>
> I don't agree,
To which part? I think the above is a possibility, but
(2) is also quite possible.
because I think you're being humanocentric in your
> reading of the two books. There is an incredibly grim ironic parallel
> between the way humanity is nearly rendered extinct in the first book
> ('moronic aliens show up and open dialog; someone goes around collecting
> data/people; world explodes') and the way the children treat the Bad
> Guy system in the second book.
Yes.
> In fact, it looks as if the children are sock-puppets working for
> the entirely automated (self-reproducing?) Ship of the Law, which is
> functionally identical to the berserkers that destroyed Earth in
> the first place.
As I said above, the inhabitants of other systems in
the area should worry. At the end of the book the
children think they have hit the right planet, but
I can easily imagine that shortly thereafter they begin
to wonder if the Bad Guys are really gone. Why wouldn't
they inhabit more than one system?
They may very well have been lied to about the nature
> of the bad guys, about the Law, and about what they're doing. Remember,
> children are malleable, impressionable, and trainable -- why are there
> no adults on board, *really*?
I also found it suspect that one ship of the Law could
trash an entire solar system of planet-killers. If the
bad guys are really that weak, why are they still around
at all?
> There is the possibility that they really are right; after all,
> they've seen one of the alien species before.
I thought the aliens had a pretty good answer for that.
More important was the post-destruction evidence of
killer ships in the artificial planet. The children
thought of this as conclusive, I was less sure.
But in this universe,
> species spread (if only as useful sock-puppets aboard robot warships)
> and there's no guarantee that they originated here. In fact, given the
> number of species living in the final system the "Dawn Treader" visits,
> they almost certainly didn't.
After finishing the book I began to wonder if this system
was not merely a more sophisticated version of the tar-baby
system visited earlier. The ease with which one ship trashed
the entire system supports this conjecture.
> If you take "Anvil of Stars" at face value, it looks like a childish
> revenge fantasy. But Bear is a subtle writer, and when you start peeling
> away the layers you find that a very unpleasant tragedy (in the classical
> sense of the term) nestling inside a much more ambiguous story.
I totally agree. I don't know what impression I gave in
my earlier posts, but I've never taken "anvil" as a
simple revenge fantasy. It's a book I really like.
I'm torn between hoping he never writes a sequel, so
the above issues remain open, and hoping he does,
to learn more of that universe.
Peter D. Tillman
Bryan Derksen <bder...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 17:26:44 -0700, "Peter D. Tillman"
> <til...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote:
> >Second to Charlie, here -- I'm surprised that tFoG doesn't get more
> >respect here. I thought this was a masterful book, with truly alien
> >psychopathic worldkillers. Nicely paced, nice unfolding of the grim,
> >unstoppable attack. And a truly explosive climax <GG>. Definitely
> >top-rank Bear, right up there with Queen of Angels and /.
>
> I think the thing that turned me off of Forge of God was that both the
> "good" and "evil" combatants were so incredibly far out of humanity's
> league that there was really no point in having them interact with
> humanity at all. The attackers' various deceptions and tricks were
> totally irrelevant; by the time they deployed them, they'd already
> dumped enough antineutronium into Earth's core that the planet's
> destruction was completely and utterly inevitable. There was nothing
> humanity could have possibly done to save itself, even if we'd known
> for a hundred years exactly what was coming. How do you stop an
> antineutronium asteroid from falling?
>
My guess is that Bear was trying for the effect on, eg, an isolated New
Guinea tribe, of a WW2 battle moving onto their turf -- which would
probably have been about as mystifying, and left them feeling as
powerless -- and as dead, of course, if they got between the Japs and
the Allies. But a tribesman and a Japanese soldier are, after all, both
human -- unlike either of the alien powers, who are, after all,
*alien*...
As for the tricks, playacting, and absurd overkill -- sadism and cruel
entertainment by bored troops in the boonies. Like people who set cats
on fire for 'fun'. "They're just animals..." Or the Japanese troops in
Empire of the Sun -- remember the cruel and chilling scene, with a
couple of Japs half-heartedly torturing a Chinese peasant to death, just
for something to do? [note 1]
> Likewise, the "good guy" combatants have such overwhelming
> capabilities available that they waste the time and effort to throw
> Europa at Mars as part of a long-term terraforming project while
> they're still in the midst of trying to fight the bad guy combatants
> out in the asteroid belt and also spirit away a population of humans
> from under the bad guys' noses. They do take on a few human "agents"
> on the ground to handle gathering together a handpicked group of
> refugees, but even here there's nothing the humans can do to influence
> events; they're handed their assignments and complete them unopposed,
> because the bad guys apparently aren't interested in that part of the
> good guy operation.
>
> So in the end, the book is just a bunch of characters helplessly (and
> for the most part cluelessly) watching events unfold, with both sides
> of the actual combatants wasting a lot of time on irrelevancies in the
> process. Didn't like it, nope.
>
I thought it interesting and, yes, masterful that Bear could take such a
helpless, hopeless, clueless setup and make a gripping novel out of it.
Contrast the tone with, forex, Silverberg's The Alien Years...
And you'll have to admit, the ending is quite... *moving*!
> Of course, opinions may differ. :)
>
Of course. And I've already mentioned, I didn't much care for the
sequel. But Forge rocks! [note 2]
Cheers -- Pete Tillman, who loves Footfall too...
Note 1) -- in case you wondered where Ballard got some of his
depressing, nihiilistic ideas...
Note 2) Which reminds me -- the geological and geophysical detail, as
people worked out what was happening to them, was spot on.
PS: My nomination for the most successful 'humans as powerless pawns of
cruel, inscrutable aliens' novel is Wm. Barton's masterfully strange and
gripping When Heaven Fell. Hmm, J. Nicoll and I once talked about doing
a paired review of this. James, are you there? I'm willing.
James Nicoll
Sure. Give me a target date.
--
"About this time, I started getting depressed. Probably the late
hour and the silence. I decided to put on some music.
Boy, that Billie Holiday can sing."
_Why I Hate Saturn_, Kyle Baker
GSV Three Minds in a Can
person Clark McIvor <clar...@gil.com.au> said
>Hi all,
>I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
>reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
>
>Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
>
>_Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
>_Psychlone_
>_Queen of Angels_
>
>
>Which can be put on the end of the to-read shelves?
>
>Any other "must haves"?
Arriving seriously late to this thread, can I suggest the short story
collection _Tangents_. In particular there is one in there (_Sisters_?)
which should give pause to anyone about to genetically engineer their
progeny.
8>.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.
Peter D. Tillman
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> In article <tillman-38BFC7...@news.fu-berlin.de>,
> Peter D. Tillman <til...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >PS: My nomination for the most successful 'humans as powerless pawns of
> >cruel, inscrutable aliens' novel is Wm. Barton's masterfully strange and
> >gripping When Heaven Fell. Hmm, J. Nicoll and I once talked about doing
> >a paired review of this. James, are you there? I'm willing.
>
> Sure. Give me a target date.
Say, a week? I'm stuck in the house for the next few days, nursing a
sick cat (bobcat mauled her badly -- grabbed her off our LR windowsill.
In a standard suburb, built-up area, Tucson) so will be looking for
distractions.
Looks like the cat will be OK, although she's pretty wobbly, and we're
$1100 poorer in vet bills. Maybe we'll rename her 'Nicolle'...
Definitely a pure indoor cat now.
Cheers -- Pete Tillman
--
Against stupidity, the Gods themselves rage in vain.
-- Friedrich von Schiller
Peter D. Tillman
GSV Three Minds in a Can <GSV@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
> Clark McIvor <clar...@gil.com.au> said
> >I have gradually acquired several books by Greg Bear, but had put off
> >reading them (other than _Dinosaur Summer_) 'cos I didn't have _Eon_.
> >
> >Now I have _Eon_, so where should I start? I have:
> >
> >_Eon_, _Eternity_ and _Legacy_
> >_The Forge of God_ and _Anvil of Stars_
> >_Moving Mars_
> >_Psychlone_
> >_Queen of Angels_
> >
> >Any other "must haves"?
>
> Arriving seriously late to this thread, can I suggest the short story
> collection _Tangents_. In particular there is one in there (_Sisters_?)
> which should give pause to anyone about to genetically engineer their
> progeny.
>
<http://isfdb.tamu.edu/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?TANG1989> "Sisters" is richtig.
Love that isfdb!
Can't remember if anyone has mentioned "Hardfought" yet, which is one of
Bear's two best stories (along with the original "Blood Music"). Simply
wonderful -- absolutely blew me away on first reading, and still very,
very good.
"Hardfought" was (sort-of) expanded to a less-successful novel, iirc,
title forgotten... Sort of proto-Xeelee wars, though Bear does it better
than Barnes, imo.
[isfdb: http://isfdb.tamu.edu/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?Greg_Bear] [Note 1]
But the definitive 'humans redesign themselves for galactic domination!
(with unfortunate side-effects)' story has to be WJW's unforgettable
singleton "Dinosaurs", which anyone who's missed should immediately seek
out:
<http://www.locusmag.com/index/s801.html#A18921.7>
What a story! I've always hoped WJW would return to this universe.
Incidentally, there's a pretty good Praxis-universe story in the current
Asimov's, which is a return to the hard-edged Angel Station style. Is
this a similar tone to the new book?
Cheers -- Pete Tillman
Book Reviews: http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/reviewer.html#tillman
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/A3GHSD9VY8XS4Q/
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/iplus/nonfiction/index.htm#reviews
http://www.sfsite.com/revwho.htm
Note 1) Remarkably, The Collected Stories of Greg Bear (2002) omits
"Hardfought"!! <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0765301601/>
James Nicoll
Peter D. Tillman <til...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote:
>In article <b60jm4$5ql$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
>> In article <tillman-38BFC7...@news.fu-berlin.de>,
>> Peter D. Tillman <til...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >PS: My nomination for the most successful 'humans as powerless pawns of
>> >cruel, inscrutable aliens' novel is Wm. Barton's masterfully strange and
>> >gripping When Heaven Fell. Hmm, J. Nicoll and I once talked about doing
>> >a paired review of this. James, are you there? I'm willing.
>>
>> Sure. Give me a target date.
>
>Say, a week? I'm stuck in the house for the next few days, nursing a
>sick cat (bobcat mauled her badly -- grabbed her off our LR windowsill.
>In a standard suburb, built-up area, Tucson) so will be looking for
>distractions.
!
We only get racoons here, although it can be startling to
reach down to pet a stray cat and see a masked face looking back...
>Looks like the cat will be OK, although she's pretty wobbly, and we're
>$1100 poorer in vet bills. Maybe we'll rename her 'Nicolle'...
>Definitely a pure indoor cat now.
When the stitches come out, give her a scritch for me.
wth...@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu
> >
>
> I thought it interesting and, yes, masterful that Bear could take such a
> helpless, hopeless, clueless setup and make a gripping novel out of it.
> Contrast the tone with, forex, Silverberg's The Alien Years...
Actually I liked the Silverberg a lot.
So, how many novels have shown us in the grip of
aliens that we cannot possibly defeat? A short list:
"The Forge of God"
"The Alien Years"
"The Way of the Pilgrim" - Gordon Dickson
"The Genocides" - Thomas Disch
"The Interpreter" - Brian Aldiss
"Childhood's End" - Arthur Clarke
Varley's "Eight Worlds" novels.
A short story by William Tenn whose title I forget.
"Wolfsbane" by Pohl and Kornbluth almost applies,
but we win in the end.
> Note 1) -- in case you wondered where Ballard got some of his
> depressing, nihiilistic ideas...
You find Ballard depressing and nihilistic?
Paul F. Dietz
> So, how many novels have shown us in the grip of
> aliens that we cannot possibly defeat? A short list:
William Barton, 'When Heaven Fell'
Paul
Jens Kilian
> Any other "must haves"?
_Slant_ is a sequel to _Queen of Angels_.
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
Peter D. Tillman
wth...@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
> "Peter D. Tillman" <til...@aztec.asu.edu> writes:
>
>
>
> > >
> >
> > I thought it interesting and, yes, masterful that Bear could take such a
> > helpless, hopeless, clueless setup and make a gripping novel out of it.
> > Contrast the tone with, forex, Silverberg's The Alien Years...
>
> Actually I liked the Silverberg a lot.
>
So did I. But it's not a positive, optimistic, cheerful book...
Which Bear somehow managed (well, kinda sorta), with considerably less
promising material.
>
> > Note 1) -- in case you wondered where Ballard got some of his
> > depressing, nihiilistic ideas...
>
> You find Ballard depressing and nihilistic?
>
Heh. You don't?
Cheers -- Pete Tillman
Yeechang Lee
> I think the thing that turned me off of Forge of God was that both
> the "good" and "evil" combatants were so incredibly far out of
> humanity's league that there was really no point in having them
> interact with humanity at all.
Bryan put into words my own feelings after reading _The Forge of God_
today. And that's a pity, because Greg Bear does such a terrific job
with the humans. He manages to write an entire novel in which *every
single (human) character* is at least somewhat sympathetic, with no
use at all of stock stereotypes; you can see him almost laugh off
stage as the reader, who has been preconditioned by a dozen other
books to "know" exactly what the President or the TV evangelist or the
military will be up to, is repeatedly proven wrong. And yes, the
method of destroying Earth is certainly miles above the usual "big
rock hits the planet" method. It's just a pity the last third of the
book falls into such gibberish, once "the network" shows up (though
the humans' depictions remain in tune until the end).
--
Read my Deep Thoughts @ <URL:http://dobie.dynip.com/blog/> PERTH ----> *
10:12pm up 4 days, 9:18, 14 users, load average: 3.95, 4.10, 4.00
179 processes: 173 sleeping, 5 running, 1 zombie, 0 stopped
CPU states: 0.4% user, 7.2% system, 1.6% nice, 0.0% idle
wth...@godzilla2.acpub.duke.edu
> In article <yv7zznnf...@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu>,
> wth...@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
>
> > "Peter D. Tillman" <til...@aztec.asu.edu> writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I thought it interesting and, yes, masterful that Bear could take such a
> > > helpless, hopeless, clueless setup and make a gripping novel out of it.
> > > Contrast the tone with, forex, Silverberg's The Alien Years...
> >
> > Actually I liked the Silverberg a lot.
> >
>
> So did I. But it's not a positive, optimistic, cheerful book...
> Which Bear somehow managed (well, kinda sorta), with considerably less
> promising material.
I think this is good. Now we have one of each.
> > > Note 1) -- in case you wondered where Ballard got some of his
> > > depressing, nihiilistic ideas...
> >
> > You find Ballard depressing and nihilistic?
> >
>
> Heh. You don't?
Well, I wasn't entirely serious. But I do often find Ballard
to be more surreal(istic?) than nihilistic.
As for depressing, no, rarely. Various histories of WWII
I found depressing, Ballard's fictionalized account of his
survival, no. The sequel, for some reason, was a tad
depressing, despite the, on the whole, better time had by
the main character (aside from the spoiler).
The disaster novels I found absorbing, not depressing,
"Crash", just plain strange, too far from my reality to
be depressing, "High Rise", and "Concrete Island" to be
funny, and so forth.
"The Terminal Beach", now that was depressing. Not a good
story to read at age 14. I have no idea how I would react
to it now.