Drakon: Samothrace's technological edge
Yang Wenli
Just finished reading S.M. Stirling's Drakon. I found out that
there're a *lot* of discussion here. However, I feel that this needed
to be pointed out.
A little spoiler space:
Is it me or is Stirling giving the Draka a lot of technological lag
while keeping them alive at the same time? The Samothracians have
molehole technology. They have very sophiscated molehole technology.
So much so that they can sneak into the solar system, detect a
molehole from beyond the orbit of Pluto and determine it's
destination.
We also know that the Samothracians have access to alternate
Samothrace, probably a lot of Samothraces.
We also know that the only reason relativistic projectiles aren't
used is because the preparation is easy to detect. Moreover,
retaliation is easy.
What this adds up to is this: THE DRAKA ARE DEAD! They just don't
know it yet.
Here's how. The Samothracians prepare a relativistic projectile,
then they sent it through a molhole just outside the Solar System.
The projectile will arrive at its target before the Draka can even
detect its preparation. Hell, they can open a thousand moleholes if
they can spare the energy. It's true that moleholes are energy hogs,
but that didn't seem to be a prime obstacle for the Draka when they
assemble their invasion of our Earth. I am sure Samothracians have
more efficient ways to generate a molehole.
Even if the Draka retaliate, the Samothracians can just duck into
one of their alternate worlds and let the Draka bombard an empty
world. Samorthrace has a much smaller population, remember.
Considering how much they "respect" their enemies, I am sure most of
their vital facilities are already situated in other timelines.
If they're so afraid of detection, here's another way to do it.
Open a molehole into an alternate Samothrace. Send a fleet through.
The fleet goes to the alternate Solar System, then they open up
another molehole into the prime line, right inside Draka's defense
perimeter. No way the "snakes" can defend against that!
As far as I can figure out, the only reason Earth is standing is
because of sentimental reasons. It's sort of a Holy Land. The
Samothracians prefer to capture it intact when The Day comes.
There's another possible reason.
Remember how LaFarge complained that he should have brought
serious firepower instead of stealth equipment? A few chapter later,
Gwen figured that the reason LaFarge use stealth weapons is because
the it would increase the probability of detection by the prime line.
It seems to me that Stirling changed the rules in the middle of the
book in order to make the contest more equal. Stirling had to keep
the Draka alive long enough to have a novel and a sequel.
Any thoughts?
JD Jacob
In _Drakon_, it does mention that Samothrace attacked
Earth/1 and were beaten back, barely. Samothrace is obviously
ahead in technology, again, barely, even though they have a
smaller population and had to build a society from ground up.
(Though arguably, the Domination had to rebuild Earth after the
war.)
Gwen also laments the Draka lack of imagination and
creativity. It has been engineered out of them by their gene
updates. This in itself isn't a problem. The Draka always used
serfs as scientists as pointed out in the previous novels.
However, they've also bio-engineered their serfs into servus.
Gwen admits they don't understand the brain. They've messed
with something they didn't understand and wound up the lesser
for it.
I think Stirling makes it fairly clear in _Drakon_ that
the Draka have engineered themselves into an evolutionary dead
end. The Samothracians on the other hand, by being completely
anti-Draka, don't alter the genetic structure at all. Everything
is merely enhanced. They started out with a society that was
better at physics to begin with. It's not surprising they ended
up with one as well.
In regards to LeFarge, all of his equipment was designed
for him to be implanted on Earth/1 in 2442, not Earth/2 in 1996.
His mission on Earth/1 was to hide and muck up the works as much
as possible, very different from what his mission ended up being.
--
J.D. Jacob Assistant Professor, Fluid Dynamics
606-257-9261 Dept. of Mechanical Eng., Univ. of Kentucky
jdj...@engr.uky.edu "Nam et ipsa scienta
http://www.me.berkeley.edu/~jdjacob/ potestas est."
Yang Wenli
jacob@anafor (JD Jacob) wrote:
> In _Drakon_, it does mention that Samothrace attacked
>Earth/1 and were beaten back, barely. Samothrace is obviously
>ahead in technology, again, barely, even though they have a
>smaller population and had to build a society from ground up.
>(Though arguably, the Domination had to rebuild Earth after the
>war.)
Yes, it's true that the Samothrace attacked, but I don't think they
attacked in the fashion I described. Relativistic projectiles are
virtually impossible to stop. Read Charles Pellegrino's The Killing
Star. A relativistic projectile through a molehole will give
absolutely no warning at all. Dumping anti-matter bombs through
moleholes from an alternate universe is even more undetectable.
Samothrace probably just sent a fleet through the molehole for their
invasion. However, when the Draka starts to catch up on molehole
technology, my bet is that Samothrace will dump religious scruples and
sterilize the solar system.
snip away a few paragraphs I agree with
>
> In regards to LeFarge, all of his equipment was designed
>for him to be implanted on Earth/1 in 2442, not Earth/2 in 1996.
>His mission on Earth/1 was to hide and muck up the works as much
>as possible, very different from what his mission ended up being.
My point is that at the beginning of the story, there's no mention
of "event waves" that will allow the prime line to pin point Gwen's
whereabout. LaFarge lamented that he didn't have any heavy weaponry.
Then Gwen mused that the reason LaFarge didn't have heavy weapon was
because of "event waves" . Then LaFarge agrees with her! The rules
seem to have changed as the story progresses. I mean, if LaFarge
thinks that "event waves" will give his operation away, then he
wouldn't have lamented about the lack of heavy weapons.
I am hoping this won't turn into something like Jack Williamson's
Humanoids stories where the antagonists are unbeatable by definition.
Well, only time can tell.
Cheers
Graydon
Yang Wenli (zh...@best.com) wrote:
: Yes, it's true that the Samothrace attacked, but I don't think they
: attacked in the fashion I described. Relativistic projectiles are
: virtually impossible to stop. Read Charles Pellegrino's The Killing
Relativistic projectiles are trivially detectable, and easy to stop. It's
more or less trivial at the tech level in question.
: Star. A relativistic projectile through a molehole will give
: absolutely no warning at all. Dumping anti-matter bombs through
: moleholes from an alternate universe is even more undetectable.
Except that moleholes _have to be moved_, *physically*; this is twice
explicit in the book. You must make the thing, then move it; you don't
get to create them anywhere but where the generator is.
: whereabout. LaFarge lamented that he didn't have any heavy weaponry.
: Then Gwen mused that the reason LaFarge didn't have heavy weapon was
: because of "event waves" . Then LaFarge agrees with her! The rules
: seem to have changed as the story progresses. I mean, if LaFarge
: thinks that "event waves" will give his operation away, then he
: wouldn't have lamented about the lack of heavy weapons.
Huh?
You have never in your life thought 'oh, gods, I wish I could just blow
that sucker away' without immediately listing all the reasons to yourself
that this is a bad idea?
Also note that there is a non-trivial learning curve involved _during the
time of the story_; it's a very new technology for all involved.
Lafarge's AI may well be figuring things out all along; they have, after
all, never tried this before.
--
Uton we hycgan hwaer we ham agen, | saun...@qlink.queensu.ca
ond thonne gethencan hu we thider cumen.
Yang Wenli
saun...@qlink.queensu.ca (Graydon) wrote:
>Relativistic projectiles are trivially detectable, and easy to stop. It's
>more or less trivial at the tech level in question.
In the novel, it's mentioned that the *preparations* for launching
relativistic projectiles are easy to detect yes, but the projectiles
are hard to stop. The only reason that prevent the Draka and
Samothracians from tossing them at each other is MAD.
That reason is now gone with the advent of molehole technology.
Besides, it would take FTL sensors to detect a relativistic
projectile. Otherwise, the moment after you see it, it hits you. I
am not sure if molehole detection is FTL or not though. If it's not,
then the effectiveness of relativistic projectiles are increased, not
decreased.
>Except that moleholes _have to be moved_, *physically*; this is twice
>explicit in the book. You must make the thing, then move it; you don't
>get to create them anywhere but where the generator is.
Samothracian ships can generate moleholes. They're mobile.
>Huh?
>You have never in your life thought 'oh, gods, I wish I could just blow
>that sucker away' without immediately listing all the reasons to yourself
>that this is a bad idea?
OTOH, look at the scene again. LaFarge got dropped on Earth. His
suit looks around and discovered that the planet is totally benign,
devoid of anything that is capable of detecting its tech. He then
regrets that he didn't bring more powerful weapons. Now, I can't
prove it, but it seems to me that he's considering the problem
carefully. He's hardly in a killing rage, incapable of thinking
through a problem logically. If he knew about "event waves" then, he
would have taken that into account and figured that he has the right
equipment after all.
>Also note that there is a non-trivial learning curve involved _during the
>time of the story_; it's a very new technology for all involved.
>Lafarge's AI may well be figuring things out all along; they have, after
>all, never tried this before.
Hmm, I don't know if either LaFarge nor the AI are capable of
figuring out the ramifications of molehole technology. AI's are very
limited and LaFarge isn't a physicist.
I liked the series so far, it's just that I am beginning to have
this feeling that the Draka will turn out like Humanoids. That is,
they become an allegory instead of a people and a society.
The future doesn't look good right now. Samothrace must strike with
everything they have right now. If they wait, the tech gap will
close. If the Draka masters molehole technology, the war with
Samothrace wiill escalate. The war will extend to all of space and
all the alternate universes. Doomsday weapons will be used all the
time, because they won't be doomsday weapons anymore. The war
probably won't stop until some super powerful alien civilization got
tired of the noise and stomp on both homo sapiens and homo drakensis.
Graydon
Yang Wenli (zh...@best.com) wrote:
: saun...@qlink.queensu.ca (Graydon) wrote:
: >Relativistic projectiles are trivially detectable, and easy to stop. It's
: >more or less trivial at the tech level in question.
: In the novel, it's mentioned that the *preparations* for launching
: relativistic projectiles are easy to detect yes, but the projectiles
: are hard to stop. The only reason that prevent the Draka and
: Samothracians from tossing them at each other is MAD.
No.
Steve Stirling might not have checked carefully, but a ton of iron moving
at .95 C is going to be a multi-hundred watt gamma ray source, and it will
stick out like a sore thumb against the cosmic background. (from hitting
things already in space at that speed. Can't do a blessed thing about
this, either; you have to deal with the energy involved in the collisions
*somehow*, and if you don't radiate it, your rock melts.)
Put fifteen grams of antimatter in a ton of iron; make a couple spherical
shells of these things, outside the orbit of mars and between Saturn and
Jupiter. Put a gamma ray detector on it, that detonates it if something
coming in a relativistic speeds comes close. Watch the relativistic
projectile hit the plasma shell and become many tiny, tiny pieces. Dead
easy for the Draka tech level (or the Samothracian.) John Schilling (who
did the numbers for this the last time it came up on sci.space.tech)
sugguests that the mass of Ceres would suffice.
: >Except that moleholes _have to be moved_, *physically*; this is twice
: >explicit in the book. You must make the thing, then move it; you don't
: >get to create them anywhere but where the generator is.
:
: Samothracian ships can generate moleholes. They're mobile.
Remember what Gwen says to Lafarge about where his entry point is? Way
out in space? the ship can indeed generate moleholes; the molehole )stays
put( when the ship goes through. If you want to get from Centauri to
earth, you have to move the molehole through einsteinian space to do it.
(not also Samothracian ship having to make a run for its molehole, not
just go *bink* back to Samothrace.)
: >You have never in your life thought 'oh, gods, I wish I could just blow
: >that sucker away' without immediately listing all the reasons to yourself
: >that this is a bad idea?
:
: OTOH, look at the scene again. LaFarge got dropped on Earth. His
: suit looks around and discovered that the planet is totally benign,
: devoid of anything that is capable of detecting its tech. He then
: regrets that he didn't bring more powerful weapons. Now, I can't
: prove it, but it seems to me that he's considering the problem
: carefully. He's hardly in a killing rage, incapable of thinking
: through a problem logically. If he knew about "event waves" then, he
: would have taken that into account and figured that he has the right
: equipment after all.
He doesn't have the right equipment; his equipment should definately
include one good sniper rifle loaded with something deadly to Draka, but
it doesn't becuase it was designed for something else.
He's also a covert ops type, not a physicist; I am quite willing to
beleive that the AI needed some time to measure the event waves a
particular set of circumstances caused to get a baseline; note that he
says that building an Hbomb would be pretty easy, and decides not to -
clearly, the event waves from that are too big, but he doesn't know that;
he has to run the numbers to find out.
: all the alternate universes. Doomsday weapons will be used all the
: time, because they won't be doomsday weapons anymore. The war
: probably won't stop until some super powerful alien civilization got
: tired of the noise and stomp on both homo sapiens and homo drakensis.
Best they do it soon. :]
The next book looks likely to be about the _very last_ drakensis there is,
anywhere. Which might well be interesting, too.
Jo Walton
In article <52gpjn$i...@knot.queensu.ca>
saun...@qlink.queensu.ca "Graydon" writes:
> The next book looks likely to be about the _very last_ drakensis there is,
> anywhere. Which might well be interesting, too.
*splutter*
What? Why? What makes you think that?
You think there will be a war between Samothrace and the Final Society
wiping out the Draka in the hiatus between volumes? It's not impossible,
but what is the evidence for going as far as "likely"?
Unless you know something more than the rest of us about _Unto us a Child_
(which I shall probably footnote forever as "Draka Messiah". :)
--
Jo J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- - I kissed a kif at Kefk - -
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
John Schilling
pmccu...@aol.com (PMccutc103) writes:
>saun...@qlink.queensu.ca (Graydon) wrote:
>>He doesn't have the right equipment; his equipment should definately
>>include one good sniper rifle loaded with something deadly to Draka, but
>>it doesn't becuase it was designed for something else.
>But I find it hard to believe that he couldn't make or improvise something
>that could have killed her the first time they crossed paths. Or even
>adapt human (1995) technology. Could she really survive a direct hit from
>a TOW missille? What about strafing her with the Gatling Gun from an
>A-10?
She could certainly survive a *miss* by a TOW, or watching an A-10 crash
and burn as it tries to set up a strafing run. LaFarge is neither a
pilot nor a TOW gunner, nor does he have Gwen's four hundred years of
experience and hard-wired battle computer to help him. So he has to
stick with A: what he knows, B: what is so simple he can get it right
the first time, or C: what he can not only steal, but practice with
extensively without being noticed.
And no, firing a TOW *accurately* is not something an untrained person
can get right the first time.
--
*John Schilling * "You can have Peace, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * or you can have Freedom. *
*University of Southern California * Don't ever count on having both *
*Aerospace Engineering Department * at the same time." *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * - Robert A. Heinlein *
*(213)-740-5311 or 747-2527 * Finger for PGP public key *
PMccutc103
saun...@qlink.queensu.ca (Graydon) wrote:
>He doesn't have the right equipment; his equipment should definately
>include one good sniper rifle loaded with something deadly to Draka, but
>it doesn't becuase it was designed for something else.
But I find it hard to believe that he couldn't make or improvise something
that could have killed her the first time they crossed paths. Or even
adapt human (1995) technology. Could she really survive a direct hit from
a TOW missille? What about strafing her with the Gatling Gun from an
A-10?
________________________
Pete McCutchen
Bertil Jonell
In article <52ft1t$e...@nntp1.best.com>, Yang Wenli <zh...@best.com> wrote:
>The war
>probably won't stop until some super powerful alien civilization got
>tired of the noise and stomp on both homo sapiens and homo drakensis.
"Good evening! I'm Random-Phonemes, and I work for something we
call Special Circumstances."
-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."
Phil Hunt
In article <52i208$i...@spock.usc.edu>
schi...@spock.usc.edu "John Schilling" writes:
>And no, firing a TOW *accurately* is not something an untrained person
>can get right the first time.
However a 66 or RPG-7 is probably considerably easier to use, and I doubt
if Gwen would survive anything designed to kill a tank.
--
Phil Hunt
Eurolang, a common second language for the European Union. See:
Eurolang, comuna dua lang per la Europa Unized. Vidu:
<http://www.vision25.demon.co.uk/eurolang.htm>
Jo Walton
In article <52gd2e$e...@nyheter.chalmers.se>
d9be...@dtek.chalmers.se "Bertil Jonell" writes:
> In article <52ft1t$e...@nntp1.best.com>, Yang Wenli <zh...@best.com> wrote:
> >The war
> >probably won't stop until some super powerful alien civilization got
> >tired of the noise and stomp on both homo sapiens and homo drakensis.
>
> "Good evening! I'm Random-Phonemes, and I work for something we
> call Special Circumstances."
That would be a book I'd pay good money to read. Can't imagine them
co-operating, somehow, can you?
Leon Myerson
Yang Wenli wrote:
> What this adds up to is this: THE DRAKA ARE DEAD! They just don't
> know it yet.
>
> Open a molehole into an alternate Samothrace. Send a fleet through.
> The fleet goes to the alternate Solar System, then they open up
> another molehole into the prime line, right inside Draka's defense
> perimeter. No way the "snakes" can defend against that!
> As far as I can figure out, the only reason Earth is standing is
> because of sentimental reasons. It's sort of a Holy Land. The
> Samothracians prefer to capture it intact when The Day comes.
> There's another possible reason.
> Remember how LaFarge complained that he should have brought
> serious firepower instead of stealth equipment? A few chapter later,
> Gwen figured that the reason LaFarge use stealth weapons is because
> the it would increase the probability of detection by the prime line.
> It seems to me that Stirling changed the rules in the middle of the
> book in order to make the contest more equal. Stirling had to keep
> the Draka alive long enough to have a novel and a sequel.
> Any thoughts?
Here's a really sneaky way to use Earth/2 as a backdoor for
attacking Earth/1, and capturing it intact.
LaFarge gets equipped with a virus, highly contagious and
persistent, but utterly harmless for Homo Sapiens, lethal to Drakensis.
For real justice, it could be a derivative of the Stone Dogs bug.
LaFarge then surreptiously IMMUNIZES Gwen, by exposing her to a
weakened strain of it during what only appears to be an attempt on her
life by him. Whether LeFarge survives the encounter or not, automatic
devices disperse the real plague, utterly infecting this whole planet.
Then LeFarge just sits back and relaxes while Gwen builds the
gateway to Earth/1. Once the two worlds are in contact, the Race DIES.
Of course, he'd pretty much be sacrificing Earth/2 to do it.
Steve Patterson
In article <843882...@vision25.demon.co.uk>, ph...@vision25.demon.co.uk (Phil Hunt) says:
>
>In article <52i208$i...@spock.usc.edu>
> schi...@spock.usc.edu "John Schilling" writes:
>>And no, firing a TOW *accurately* is not something an untrained person
>>can get right the first time.
>
>However a 66 or RPG-7 is probably considerably easier to use, and I doubt
>if Gwen would survive anything designed to kill a tank.
Well, it's certainly easier to get something to come out of the tube, but
I wouldn't call them easier to use *effectively*. Both the LAW (66mm
disposable Light Antitank Weapon) and the RPG family need *windage* guages
and graduated sights, unless you're fool enough to fire them indoors...
If a novice is trying to use a LAW/RPG against Gwen, odds are she'll show
him his beating heart before he can pull the trigger.
------------------------------------------------------------
Steven J. Patterson spatt...@wwdc.com
W.O.R.L.D.'S....S..L..O..W..E..S..T....W...R...I...T...E...R
"Men may move mountains, but ideas move men."
-- M.N. Vorkosigan, per L.M. Bujold
JD Jacob
In article <52jhgu$d...@van1s03.cyberion.com>,
Steve Patterson <spatt...@wwdc.com> wrote:
>In article <843882...@vision25.demon.co.uk>, ph...@vision25.demon.co.uk (Phil Hunt) says:
>>In article <52i208$i...@spock.usc.edu>
>> schi...@spock.usc.edu "John Schilling" writes:
>>>And no, firing a TOW *accurately* is not something an untrained person
>>>can get right the first time.
>>However a 66 or RPG-7 is probably considerably easier to use, and I doubt
>>if Gwen would survive anything designed to kill a tank.
>Well, it's certainly easier to get something to come out of the tube, but
>I wouldn't call them easier to use *effectively*. Both the LAW (66mm
>disposable Light Antitank Weapon) and the RPG family need *windage* guages
>and graduated sights, unless you're fool enough to fire them indoors...
>If a novice is trying to use a LAW/RPG against Gwen, odds are she'll show
>him his beating heart before he can pull the trigger.
Recall that Lefarge lamented his first attack. He tried to sneak in,
which isn't surprising since he was trained as a spook. After the
failed attempt, he said to himself that he should have went in with
a frontal assault with massive firepower instead of trying to slip
through her defenses and take Gwen out assassination-style.
After that, Gwen knew about Lefarge and he had to do something
different. Remember how hard it was for the task force to take out
her warehouse? Lefarge wasn't perfect, but luckily for him and
Earth/2, neither was Gwen.
Phil Hunt
In article <843898...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>
J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" writes:
>> "Good evening! I'm Random-Phonemes, and I work for something we
>> call Special Circumstances."
:-)
>That would be a book I'd pay good money to read. Can't imagine them
>co-operating, somehow, can you?
I don't see why not. I think a Banks-Stirling collaboration would be
interesting.
Jo Walton
In article <843933...@vision25.demon.co.uk>
ph...@vision25.demon.co.uk "Phil Hunt" writes:
> In article <843898...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>
> J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" writes:
> >> "Good evening! I'm Random-Phonemes, and I work for something we
> >> call Special Circumstances."
>
> :-)
>
> >That would be a book I'd pay good money to read. Can't imagine them
> >co-operating, somehow, can you?
>
> I don't see why not. I think a Banks-Stirling collaboration would be
> interesting.
I think it would be _fascinating_ but I wouldn't want to suggest it to
either of them, would you?
Fred Smoler
Leon Myerson <cd00...@interramp.com> wrote:
>Yang Wenli wrote:
>
> Here's a really sneaky way to use Earth/2 as a backdoor for
>attacking Earth/1, and capturing it intact.
> LaFarge gets equipped with a virus, highly contagious and
>persistent, but utterly harmless for Homo Sapiens, lethal to Drakensis.
>For real justice, it could be a derivative of the Stone Dogs bug.
> LaFarge then surreptiously IMMUNIZES Gwen, by exposing her to a
Samothracians may well have taboos against biological warfare along with
a lot of other bioengineering, and if so, that's certainly
understandable: Draka bioweapons set in chain the events
that exterminated their Earth's humanity, leaving Homo Drakiensis and the
genetically distinct and no longer human serf population. Also,
H.Drakiensis has a fairly souped-up immune system, and biotech is the
species' only technological lead over the Samothrace, so that going at
the Drakons via this route would be playing to their strengths.
Fred Smoler
J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>In article <52gpjn$i...@knot.queensu.ca>
> saun...@qlink.queensu.ca "Graydon" writes:
>
>> The next book looks likely to be about the _very last_ drakensis there is,
>> anywhere. Which might well be interesting, too.
>
>*splutter*
>
>What? Why? What makes you think that?
>
>You think there will be a war between Samothrace and the Final Society
>wiping out the Draka in the hiatus between volumes? It's not impossible,
>but what is the evidence for going as far as "likely"?
What an appalling thought--I hope Mr. Saunders is wrong. Btw, has anyone
one this list discussed the fact that the Earth of "Drakon" doesn't seem
to be our timeline? For one thing, everybody seems to have fought in
Cambodia and no-one in Vietnam. If I am correct on this, Stirling is
keeping his options open--there's room for exploring the Draka in
universes where they overplay their hand, or where we're a bit tougher
(what if the Alliance had, as the strategos feared, used its window of
opportunity to liberate Europe in '45, with the nuclear balance
keeping the Draka within the confines of convnetional warfare?) or where
they run into something bigger and meaner. And in any case, I would
truly love to see a trilogy on the Draka between 1783 and 1941.
Phil Hunt
In article <843978...@kenjo.demon.co.uk>
J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk "Jo Walton" writes:
>> >That would be a book I'd pay good money to read. Can't imagine them
>> >co-operating, somehow, can you?
>>
>> I don't see why not. I think a Banks-Stirling collaboration would be
>> interesting.
>
>I think it would be _fascinating_ but I wouldn't want to suggest it to
>either of them, would you?
I've not met either of them, but I expect most writers have a big ego
that might get innthe way of collaboration.
They are both good at describing societies where sick and disgusting
things go on.
Leon Myerson
Fred Smoler wrote:
I think you're right. Samothracian sensibilities prevent it. I would
approve of their not being willing sacrifice someone else's Earth,
although a booby trap would be appropriate if they didn't think they
could keep Earth/2 out of Domination hands anyway.
But I don't think the Samothracians aren't capable of doing it. Lefarge
did have a gun that fired drugged needles, lethal only to a Drakensis,
not to a human who would only be tranquilized. That's an awfully
specific effect.
Bio-engineering need not follow the Drakensis pattern, one could
certainly do otherwise. Imagine if Lefarge was inherently as strong and
swift as a Drakensis, and THEN enhanced bionically to cyber-warrior
status. Gwen wouldn't have had a chance.
It leads me to worry that the Samothracians are a bunch of Luddite,
religious fanatics. Though, I must admit to great bias against
religiousity of kind.
RICHARD KENAN
: >Relativistic projectiles are trivially detectable, and easy to stop. It's
: >more or less trivial at the tech level in question.
: In the novel, it's mentioned that the *preparations* for launching
: relativistic projectiles are easy to detect yes, but the projectiles
: are hard to stop. The only reason that prevent the Draka and
: Samothracians from tossing them at each other is MAD.
: That reason is now gone with the advent of molehole technology.
: Besides, it would take FTL sensors to detect a relativistic
: projectile. Otherwise, the moment after you see it, it hits you. I
: am not sure if molehole detection is FTL or not though. If it's not,
: then the effectiveness of relativistic projectiles are increased, not
: decreased.
: >Except that moleholes _have to be moved_, *physically*; this is twice
: >explicit in the book. You must make the thing, then move it; you don't
: >get to create them anywhere but where the generator is.
:
: Samothracian ships can generate moleholes. They're mobile.
Also, moving a molehole is a FTL operation (read Gwens considerations
about tossing a molehole to another star. A few weeks, she says,
which is pretty thoroughly FTL.
: >Huh?
: >You have never in your life thought 'oh, gods, I wish I could just blow
: >that sucker away' without immediately listing all the reasons to yourself
: >that this is a bad idea?
: OTOH, look at the scene again. LaFarge got dropped on Earth. His
: suit looks around and discovered that the planet is totally benign,
: devoid of anything that is capable of detecting its tech. He then
: regrets that he didn't bring more powerful weapons. Now, I can't
: prove it, but it seems to me that he's considering the problem
: carefully. He's hardly in a killing rage, incapable of thinking
: through a problem logically. If he knew about "event waves" then, he
: would have taken that into account and figured that he has the right
: equipment after all.
There's a difference between heavier weaponry and anti-matter
warheads. He probably wanted a bazooka equivalent, or some
kind of heavy plasma gun. Instead, he got a vibration sword
and a gas gun. I think he manufactured his (primitive) plasma
rifle on Earth/2.
: >Also note that there is a non-trivial learning curve involved _during the
: >time of the story_; it's a very new technology for all involved.
: >Lafarge's AI may well be figuring things out all along; they have, after
: >all, never tried this before.
: Hmm, I don't know if either LaFarge nor the AI are capable of
: figuring out the ramifications of molehole technology. AI's are very
: limited and LaFarge isn't a physicist.
: I liked the series so far, it's just that I am beginning to have
: this feeling that the Draka will turn out like Humanoids. That is,
: they become an allegory instead of a people and a society.
: The future doesn't look good right now. Samothrace must strike with
: everything they have right now. If they wait, the tech gap will
: close. If the Draka masters molehole technology, the war with
: Samothrace wiill escalate. The war will extend to all of space and
: all the alternate universes. Doomsday weapons will be used all the
: time, because they won't be doomsday weapons anymore. The war
: probably won't stop until some super powerful alien civilization got
: tired of the noise and stomp on both homo sapiens and homo drakensis.
That wouldn't be so bad. Honestly, Unless there's some missing
element, Earth/1 is dead already. Samothrace will win, to a very
high degree of probability, because they have a retaliation-proof
doomsday weapon, and Earth/1 doesn't yet. Of course, Samothrace
is populated by criminally sentimental rulers and fanatical
soldiers, so they may lose anyway.
Shoot first, and ask questions later, is a pretty good rule of
thumb when at war with Draka of any species. The Alliance didn't
seem to figure that out. Hopefully, Samothrace has.
Just me.
--
Richard Kenan
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!eefacdk
Internet: eef...@prism.gatech.edu
Mary K. Kuhner
Viruses are not like chemical weapons. You might release a virus that
was specific to _drakensis_ but there is no guarentee that it would
stay that way, and distressingly good odds that it wouldn't. One
mutant able to infect _sapiens_ would be all it would take. I
don't blame the Samothracians for rejecting this type of tactic.
Most of the "tailored virus" SF stories I've seen miss this problem,
I guess to make an easier story. It is made worse by the fact
that unrelated viruses, as long as they are even vaguely similar,
can "crossbreed"--so you have to think seriously about the possibility
that the "payload" lethality of your anti-Draka virus might get
together with the infective apparatus of, say, influenza.
A correspondent whose letter I unfortunately lost suggests that
there might be a biological way to turn adult _sapiens_ into
adult Draka, leading to a story somewhat like Niven's _Protector_.
The idea strikes me as unlikely--I doubt adults have that kind
of plasticity--but it would be interesting from a psychological
viewpoint. How *would* one cope with Gwen's sexuality, without
Gwen's four hundred years to learn to accomodate, and helpful
cultural background? In general, would this tactic just produce more
Draka, or would its subjects manage to resist the temptations
long enough to get anything done? How much of the New Race's
newness is cultural, and how much is biological? This is a story
I wouldn't mind seeing.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Leon Myerson
You could well be right about the danger of tailored viruses mutating.
Perhaps its possible to design a minimalist virus such that every bit of
its genetic material is absolutely crucial, so that ANY change simply
destroys it. Verification of that would have to be on the level
of raising biochemistry simulations to the reliability of mathematical
proofs before you could really trust it.
As for transforming an adult Homo Sapien into a Drakensis, that was my
posting you've misplaced. <g> I've often wondered whether some form of
virus couldn't be used to edit the genes of every cell in the body of an
adult creature. When I proposed this to my high school biology teacher
in 1973, he got nervous about leaving me alone in the lab. <grin>
Whether its really possible or not, it is certainly implied in Drakon.
Gwen told Dr. Mueller she'd had three full-organism makeovers herself,
and they even isolated a molecular transposer nanite from her blood that
was leftover from her last retrofit to use in creating their algae
desalinization product. Gwen bitched that full-organism makeovers could
take a decade or longer, and were quite uncomfortable.
Just keep in mind that the Gwen of Stone Dogs was closer to being human
than to being what she'd be 440 years later. She clearly said her DNA
was 6% divergent from Homo Sapiens, yet in Stone Dogs the New Race was
described as only 2% divergent.
Does changing your DNA every century or so sound almost like becoming
one's own descendants?
Graydon
PMccutc103 (pmccu...@aol.com) wrote:
Neither of these are significantly portable or avialable; you can't hope
to just _steal_ an A10 (and he doesn't know how to fly one - remember his
comments on the guts of that car? This is all Wierd Science to him) and
while a TOW is likely to be available and to work, it _won't_ a) survive
immersion and b)is an incredibly bad choice to try to hit Gwen with; she
can get behind something very fast, TOWs are slow, optically tracked, and
have limited fields of view, and the whole point is to avoid getting
close.
I'd prefer a load of needler dart toxin and a really moose sniper rifle,
myself. Makes getting away from the minions a more hopeful prospect.
Graydon
Jo Walton (J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <52gpjn$i...@knot.queensu.ca>
: saun...@qlink.queensu.ca "Graydon" writes:
: > The next book looks likely to be about the _very last_ drakensis there is,
: > anywhere. Which might well be interesting, too.
:
: *splutter*
:
: What? Why? What makes you think that?
As far as Gwen's kid knows, it's true. This is likely to make her act
like it's true. She certainly can't go home; the geography involved is
missing on the Draka timeline earth.
: You think there will be a war between Samothrace and the Final Society
: wiping out the Draka in the hiatus between volumes? It's not impossible,
: but what is the evidence for going as far as "likely"?
Energy equivalence to moving mass at not inconsiderable fractions of C
using molehole technology, discussed several places; Gwen is 400 years
'down' and 200 years 'over'. This dumped back to the Draka timeline
earth.
It appears that the least hypothesis is that there was a bright light, and
expense followed; at least one hemisphere of that earth gone, utterly
uninhabitable, most of the Draka orbital infrastructure wrecked, etc. The
Draka only barely stopped the Samothracians the first time; they've just
had the logistical heart hacked out of their home system. They're not
going to stop the followup attack.
The machinery could well have handled the surge, but somehow, I don't
think that's the way to bet.
Jon Leech
In article <52p0pf$l...@knot.queensu.ca>,
Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
>It appears that the least hypothesis is that there was a bright light, and
>expense followed; at least one hemisphere of that earth gone, utterly
>uninhabitable, most of the Draka orbital infrastructure wrecked, etc.
We know this didn't happen. Tolya, the servus head of the Project, was
chased out of the lab just prior to molehole collapse, but shows up later in
the book.
Jon
__@/
Mary K. Kuhner
Leon Myerson <cd00...@interramp.com> writes:
>Mary K. Kuhner wrote:
>> Viruses are not like chemical weapons. You might release a virus that
>> was specific to _drakensis_ but there is no guarentee that it would
>> stay that way, and distressingly good odds that it wouldn't.
>Perhaps its possible to design a minimalist virus such that every bit of
>its genetic material is absolutely crucial, so that ANY change simply
>destroys it.
Unfortunately, viruses can change not only by mutations within their
genetic material, but by appending stuff onto the ends. You could prevent
that by having a virus coat that was so small that nothing extra would
fit (there are some natural viruses with amazingly compact, concise
genomes, apparently for this reason). However, you'd still worry
about influenza virus picking up part of the lethal payload and
putting it into *its* coat.
Life is change, as I said on this thread in another context. Bioweapons
are never likely to be safe, and viruses are the worst. Still, Draka
are pretty bad too....
>As for transforming an adult Homo Sapien into a Drakensis, that was my
>posting you've misplaced. <g> I've often wondered whether some form of
>virus couldn't be used to edit the genes of every cell in the body of an
>adult creature. When I proposed this to my high school biology teacher
>in 1973, he got nervous about leaving me alone in the lab. <grin>
Sure, can be done. The problem is, how much of an adult's phenotype is
due to her genes, and how much is due to structures laid down in
childhood? If you changed every cell in my body to specify thick,
sturdy bone structure, I wouldn't become a thick-boned, sturdy woman,
because those bones aren't growing anymore--that was all finished
when I was a teenager.
>Whether its really possible or not, it is certainly implied in Drakon.
>Gwen told Dr. Mueller she'd had three full-organism makeovers herself,
>and they even isolated a molecular transposer nanite from her blood that
>was leftover from her last retrofit to use in creating their algae
>desalinization product. Gwen bitched that full-organism makeovers could
>take a decade or longer, and were quite uncomfortable.
I bet they would be. You'd need to restart that adolescent growth,
constrained to keep you from actually *growing* (Gwen is big, but not
gigantic) and carefully controlled to prevent cancer or other
pathologies of unrestrained growth. This is within my "suspension of
disbelief for the sake of story" limits, but strikes me as a very
hard trick to accomplish.
(Watch out for secreting Draka pheromones while still susceptible to
them, by the way! That would be a seriously dysfunctional state.
Horny all the time and no idea who to hump.)
>Just keep in mind that the Gwen of Stone Dogs was closer to being human
>than to being what she'd be 440 years later. She clearly said her DNA
>was 6% divergent from Homo Sapiens, yet in Stone Dogs the New Race was
>described as only 2% divergent.
6% of the human genome is 1.8 x 10^8 bases of DNA, and you do not
stuff that into a couple of viruses. I guess you keep hitting the
target with new virus cocktails, year after year? It's amazing
anyone survived. 6% divergence is further off than a chimpanzee.
>Does changing your DNA every century or so sound almost like becoming
>one's own descendants?
Interesting thought. Lamarckian evolution (you evolve to what you
strive towards) in action. I like to think that sooner or later
the apparent stability of the Draka will collapse with that kind of
change going on, though whether their successors would be any better
from the human point of view....
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Leon Myerson
Mary K. Kuhner wrote:
>
> Sure, can be done. The problem is, how much of an adult's phenotype is
> due to her genes, and how much is due to structures laid down in
> childhood? If you changed every cell in my body to specify thick,
> sturdy bone structure, I wouldn't become a thick-boned, sturdy woman,
> because those bones aren't growing anymore--that was all finished
> when I was a teenager.
basic structure is laid down pre-fetal. If adult organism makeovers
are possible at all, they'd have to be based on the fact that one of
the new abilities being added all the way down to the cellular level
is to regenerate any part of the organism as long its still more or
less alive. Which Gwen did say she was able to do.
I think such a system would require free swimming constructor cells,
akin to the free swimmers we already have in our immune systems.
They would recognize that the body is divergent from its genetic
specifications and go to work to rebuild, exactly as if the divergence
were the result of injury. They'd add what's missing, and destroy what
no longer belongs. That's the trickiest part, ripping out larger
structures, and bringing new ones on line, without killing the
organism. The constructor system would need a LOT of smarts built
in. A free swimming swarm of bionic nanites, more than cells.
Probably have to cocoon the individual and takeover life support at
some point. Which brings up the example of creatures that do this all
the time, the insects, so it is at least possible. Remember that we
are completely guessing about what may or may not be workable over future
centuries of scientific developement.
You know, it'd be easier to clone a brand new body and have your brain
transplanted. Maybe the Drakensis ARE a race of idiot-savants. <grin>
As for brain updates, we're already looking into brain repair with fetal
brain cell material. This sort of thing will eventually send the old
mind/brain philosophical debate into warp drive.
> (Watch out for secreting Draka pheromones while still susceptible to
> them, by the way! That would be a seriously dysfunctional state.
> Horny all the time and no idea who to hump.)
> No problem. You've just described the typical Homo Sapien male
adolescence us guys all live thru. <grin>
>
> >Does changing your DNA every century or so sound almost like becoming
> >one's own descendants?
>
> Interesting thought. Lamarckian evolution (you evolve to what you
> strive towards) in action. I like to think that sooner or later
> the apparent stability of the Draka will collapse with that kind of
> change going on, though whether their successors would be any better
> from the human point of view....
> Yes, if the manner of Gwen's defeat is any indication, they have
seriously
over-specialized, much as Dr. Snappdove predicted. Each iteration of
their
self-directed evolution futher restricts their imagination regarding the
next set of changes. Evolutionary sclerosis?
We think of overspecialization as leaving a species unable to cope with
an
altered environment, but there's also an aspect in which the species is
so
well adapted to its current environment that it can no longer make any
incremental improvements, so its design is effectively locked. It would
have to evolve back the way it came to regain flexibility, an extreme
improbability in the randomness of natural evolution.
Graydon
Jon Leech (le...@cs.unc.edu) wrote:
: In article <52p0pf$l...@knot.queensu.ca>,
: Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
MASSIVE SPOLIER FOR :Drakon:
: >It appears that the least hypothesis is that there was a bright light, and
: >expense followed; at least one hemisphere of that earth gone, utterly
: >uninhabitable, most of the Draka orbital infrastructure wrecked, etc.
:
: We know this didn't happen. Tolya, the servus head of the Project, was
: chased out of the lab just prior to molehole collapse, but shows up later in
: the book.
No, no, not the one that transported Gwen by mistake, the one that was all
set up to transport the First Legion - conservatively estimated at a
hundred thousand tons mass - the equivalent of 600 light years at .5 C.
_Bright_ light.
Bruce Baugh
>> I don't see why not. I think a Banks-Stirling collaboration would be
>> interesting.
>I think it would be _fascinating_ but I wouldn't want to suggest it to
>either of them, would you?
I just forwarded it to Steve. Response, if any, will get posted here.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> br...@kenosis.com <*> http://www.kenosis.com/bruce
See my Web pages for...
Daedalus Entertainment, makers of Feng Shui and Shadowfist
Christlib, the mailing list of Christian & libertarian ideas
New sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er
Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be proofread at $50/hr, min $100
Jean Lamb
Hey, maybe we've just discover the origins of the Founders! A rejuv
nanite gone berserk!
>mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
(LARGE snip)
>Interesting thought. Lamarckian evolution (you evolve to what you
>strive towards) in action. I like to think that sooner or later
>the apparent stability of the Draka will collapse with that kind of
>change going on, though whether their successors would be any better
>from the human point of view....
>Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Jean Lamb, tla...@magick.net.
Muad'Dib, Irulan, and Chani--born to be a melange a trois!
Robert A. Woodward
In article <52rg56$b...@knot.queensu.ca>, saun...@qlink.queensu.ca
(Graydon) wrote:
> Jon Leech (le...@cs.unc.edu) wrote:
> : In article <52p0pf$l...@knot.queensu.ca>,
> : Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
> MASSIVE SPOLIER FOR :Drakon:
>
> : >It appears that the least hypothesis is that there was a bright light, and
> : >expense followed; at least one hemisphere of that earth gone, utterly
> : >uninhabitable, most of the Draka orbital infrastructure wrecked, etc.
> :
> : We know this didn't happen. Tolya, the servus head of the Project, was
> : chased out of the lab just prior to molehole collapse, but shows up later in
> : the book.
>
> No, no, not the one that transported Gwen by mistake, the one that was all
> set up to transport the First Legion - conservatively estimated at a
> hundred thousand tons mass - the equivalent of 600 light years at .5 C.
>
> _Bright_ light.
>
Just joining the discussion; I peeked at the end (having bailed out of the
series at _Under the Yoke_), you are refering to the one at the end of the
book? Why would it backfire so spectacularly while the other end had
virtually nothing?
Bertil Jonell
Fred Smoler wrote:
***
Btw, has anyone
one this list discussed the fact that the Earth of "Drakon" doesn't seem
to be our timeline? For one thing, everybody seems to have fought in
Cambodia and no-one in Vietnam.
But the US *did* fight in Cambodia. After all, the Ho Chi Minh Trail
went through Laos and Cambodia, so the US followed them there (ie
fairly elite units, not rank & file marines AFAIK)
So if they are old war buddies there is a chance that they'd all
served in a unit that fought in Cambodia. And since everyone would
assume that they fought in Vietnam, they'd have a reason to point out
that they fought in Cambodia.
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <324FFE...@interramp.com>,
Leon Myerson <cd00...@interramp.com> wrote:
>
>As for transforming an adult Homo Sapien into a Drakensis, that was my
>posting you've misplaced. <g> I've often wondered whether some form of
>virus couldn't be used to edit the genes of every cell in the body of an
>adult creature. When I proposed this to my high school biology teacher
>in 1973, he got nervous about leaving me alone in the lab. <grin>
>
>Gwen told Dr. Mueller she'd had three full-organism makeovers herself,
>and they even isolated a molecular transposer nanite from her blood that
>was leftover from her last retrofit to use in creating their algae
>desalinization product. Gwen bitched that full-organism makeovers could
>take a decade or longer, and were quite uncomfortable.
>
the organism is viable during all the transitional stages. Infecting
everyone with a tranformative virus would imply that very little
support would be available for any difficult transitions, so you'd
need for people to be pretty functional, not just viable, while
they're changing. You *might* be able to get away with people
requiring home nursing care for a few days now and then while
they're changing and not have a huge proportion die, but if
the transition is difficult enough to require even a little
hospital care, I think a billion dead would be a low estimate.
A slow transition over several generations could be an interesting
premise for a novel, and if people don't all change at the same
time, it would be a good bit safer.
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
12/95 updated calligraphic button catalogue available by email
Vincent Archer
Mary K. Kuhner (mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu) wrote:
> A correspondent whose letter I unfortunately lost suggests that
> there might be a biological way to turn adult _sapiens_ into
> adult Draka, leading to a story somewhat like Niven's _Protector_.
If I remember right (can't seem to find my copy of Drakon), Gwen has
in mind the conversion of most of whatever's left of the human population
into Homo Servus. Which means that, in the Draka metaverse, that kind
of conversion is possible. If it is to Servus, why not for Drakensis...
That's what I'm almost expecting for Gwen Jr. Cloning is viable if you
intend to reconnect to the main line and the rest of the Draka. If you
cannot link, then you need a basic genetic diversity for your own species,
and that means creating new lines. What's better than converting some
various individuals (or their children, if you feel like you have the
time).
--
Vincent ARCHER Email: arc...@frmug.org
Jon Leech
In article <52rg56$b...@knot.queensu.ca>,
>set up to transport the First Legion - conservatively estimated at a
OK, I realized that's what you were talking about after making the post.
But this isn't the only scenario possible, based on the couple of lines of
description given. For example:
- The molehole wasn't set up to transport all 100K tons at once. It was
barely big enough for a single Draka tank-equivalent to fit through,
which probably isn't more than a few hundred times Gwen's mass.
- Perhaps the energy all appeared as a coherent beam directed at the
sky, as when Gwen and the Archon communicated.
- Or there was a safety mechanism to shunt it off into another timeline.
- Or it was was harmlessly dissipated across multiple timelines via the
"quasi-vibration" when the molehole collapsed.
- And even if that particular Domination timeline is toast, the "quantum
fluctuations" that Gwen and LaFarge talked about suggest there are
many others accessible to Earth/2.
If Stirling wants more Draka in a sequel, he'll find some way of having
them.
Jon
__@/
Phil Hunt
In article <52tqmc$p...@universe.digex.net>
nan...@universe.digex.net "Nancy Lebovitz" writes:
>As Stirling sort of implies, the hard part would be making sure that
>the organism is viable during all the transitional stages. Infecting
>everyone with a tranformative virus would imply that very little
>support would be available for any difficult transitions, so you'd
>need for people to be pretty functional, not just viable, while
>they're changing.
I think the best way of doing it would be to grow a new body, then
cut the head of the old body off, and stick it onto the new body.
A brain transplant would be a variation on this theme. Altering the
brain itself would be more complex.
Kevin Rose
robe...@halcyon.com (Robert A. Woodward) wrote:
>>
>> No, no, not the one that transported Gwen by mistake, the one that was all
>> set up to transport the First Legion - conservatively estimated at a
>> hundred thousand tons mass - the equivalent of 600 light years at .5 C.
>>
>> _Bright_ light.
>>
>
>Just joining the discussion; I peeked at the end (having bailed out of the
>series at _Under the Yoke_), you are refering to the one at the end of the
>book? Why would it backfire so spectacularly while the other end had
>virtually nothing?
>
The blast at the earth/2 end was some small fraction of the energy
released by the fusion containment field failure. The majority of the
energy was fed back into the much more powerful equipment at the other
end. The other end had a LOT more of power.
Tolya discusses, on page 275 the enomous power required to hold open
the molehole on a planetary surface, and the risks that a minor
fluctuation might cause a global catastrophe. And having a small
nuclear bomb take out your far end while you have a thousand or so
tons of material in transit is more than a minor fluctuation.
I would expect that they lost, at the very least, Manhattan and the
entire research team. The idea that it punched a >50km hole in the
East coast seems well within the scope of the power levels being
talked about, particularly as there are some weird feedback
amplification effects discussed.
A multi-gigaton ocean explosion that tosses multiple thousand cubic km
of steam and vaporised rock into the air would be a bad thing, from
the Draka point of view. And the explosion could be much larger than
that, depending on where things like the power plants are and how much
energy it takes to transport the 10 meter diameter armoured vehicle
that was in transit when the reactor blew.
Kevin Rose
Graydon
Robert A. Woodward (robe...@halcyon.com) wrote:
: In article <52rg56$b...@knot.queensu.ca>, saun...@qlink.queensu.ca
: (Graydon) wrote:
: > No, no, not the one that transported Gwen by mistake, the one that was all
: > set up to transport the First Legion - conservatively estimated at a
: > hundred thousand tons mass - the equivalent of 600 light years at .5 C.
: >
: > _Bright_ light.
: >
:
: Just joining the discussion; I peeked at the end (having bailed out of the
: series at _Under the Yoke_), you are refering to the one at the end of the
: book? Why would it backfire so spectacularly while the other end had
: virtually nothing?
Because the machinery set up to control it is at that end, apparently.
It's Wierd Science, it can do what it likes, in one sense, and that's
where the energy is coming from, in another - if the whole system goes,
the power plant tends to be more of a mess than the thing at the other end
of the wires, sorta thing.
Bertil Jonell
In article <52rg56$b...@knot.queensu.ca>,
Graydon <saun...@qlink.queensu.ca> wrote:
>No, no, not the one that transported Gwen by mistake, the one that was all
>set up to transport the First Legion - conservatively estimated at a
>hundred thousand tons mass - the equivalent of 600 light years at .5 C.
>
>_Bright_ light.
Sure the light wasn't from the fusion reactor on Earht/2 venting plasma?
And even if you are correct, that still leaves Mars and Venus (both
probably terraformed by then) and the rest of the solar system inside the
asteroid belt for the Samotracians to crack, as well as all other colonies.
And even if you are correct #2: it doesn't say where the First Legion
ends up except it not being Earth/2 and probably not Earth/1. They could
just turn into plasma of course, but the last example we saw of a collapsing
wormhole *did* put those close enough somewhere(1).
(Stirling & Turtledove: 'Plasma-guns of the Legion' :)
(1) Something just hit me: Why was just Gwendolyn & the Ghouloon
deposited in the warehouse? What about all the equipment and
interior structures of the research center that ought to have
been carried along? Where did that material go?
>Uton we hycgan hwaer we ham agen, | saun...@qlink.queensu.ca
-bertil-
Bertil Jonell
In article <52u00a$8...@tines.hsc.fr>, Vincent Archer <arc...@hsc.fr> wrote:
>Mary K. Kuhner (mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu) wrote:
>> A correspondent whose letter I unfortunately lost suggests that
>> there might be a biological way to turn adult _sapiens_ into
>> adult Draka, leading to a story somewhat like Niven's _Protector_.
>
>If I remember right (can't seem to find my copy of Drakon), Gwen has
>in mind the conversion of most of whatever's left of the human population
>into Homo Servus. Which means that, in the Draka metaverse, that kind
>of conversion is possible. If it is to Servus, why not for Drakensis...
Servus didn't have extensive structural mods.
>Vincent ARCHER Email: arc...@frmug.org