Hating Humanity

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Tabu LaRaza

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Aug 10, 2001, 4:21:09 PM8/10/01
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I recently saw an anime film called Blue Submarine no 6 which featured a
scientist who wished to extinguish the human race by causing a nuclear war
(he already had killed ten billion through a pole shift?). I saw this after
reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there any SF that features
humanity hating protagonists?

Thanks,

TR


Jordan S. Bassior

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Aug 10, 2001, 5:03:37 PM8/10/01
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Tabu LaRaza said:

S. M. Stirling's recent _Infiltrator_ (part of the _Terminator_ continuity)
features Serena, a mostly-human Terminator cyborg who hates humanity even more
than does Skynet.
--
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
--
"To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On
the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too
late." (Churchill, 1934)
--

James A. Wolf

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Aug 10, 2001, 6:41:48 PM8/10/01
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"Tabu LaRaza" <DIGIT...@prodigy.net> wrote:

Does Marvin the Paraniod Android count? <G>
--

<*> James A. Wolf - jaw...@mediaone.net - people.ne.mediaone.net/jawolf <*>

"The jawbone of an ass is | "What you do should speak | "If Murphy's Laws
just as dangerous a weapon | so loudly that no one can | are religion, I
today as in Samson's time." | hear what you say." | must be a saint."
Richard M. Nixon | Marv Levy | Tom Smith

Lawrence Person

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Aug 10, 2001, 7:56:30 PM8/10/01
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In article <VmXc7.6608$pg5.79...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
"Tabu LaRaza" <DIGIT...@prodigy.net> wrote:

The platform of the Green Party.

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Brenda W. Clough

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Aug 10, 2001, 8:13:51 PM8/10/01
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Tabu LaRaza wrote:

Over in BATMAN the arch-villain Ra's al Ghul's avowed goal is to purify the
planet and off ninety percent or so of the human race. He will then of course
rule the remnants.

Brenda

--
What do you do with a secret?
Whisper it in a desert at high noon.
Lock it up and bury the key.
Tell the nation on prime-time TV.
Choose a door . . .

Doors of Death and Life
by Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda
Tor Books
ISBN 0-312-87064-7


Richard Horton

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Aug 10, 2001, 11:29:22 PM8/10/01
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There's a '50s SF story -- I think it's by Asimov, or maybe Anderson,
about a scientist who discovers a secret that will inevitably lead to
the destruction of the Earth (super nuclear war, or something), and
after some internal debate about whether to suppress his results he
decides, screw it, these were the kids who beat me up because I wore
glasses, and laughed at me because I was smarter, and if they were
women never dated me -- kill 'em all. So he releases the terrible
secret.


--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)

Fred Galvin

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Aug 11, 2001, 12:47:59 AM8/11/01
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On Sat, 11 Aug 2001, Richard Horton wrote:

> There's a '50s SF story -- I think it's by Asimov, or maybe Anderson,
> about a scientist who discovers a secret that will inevitably lead to
> the destruction of the Earth (super nuclear war, or something), and
> after some internal debate about whether to suppress his results he
> decides, screw it, these were the kids who beat me up because I wore
> glasses, and laughed at me because I was smarter, and if they were
> women never dated me -- kill 'em all. So he releases the terrible
> secret.

"Judgment Day" by L. Sprague de Camp. The first line: "It took me a
long time to decide whether to let the earth live."

Jordan S. Bassior

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Aug 11, 2001, 1:36:51 AM8/11/01
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Richard Horton said:

>There's a '50s SF story -- I think it's by Asimov, or maybe Anderson,
>about a scientist who discovers a secret that will inevitably lead to
>the destruction of the Earth (super nuclear war, or something), and
>after some internal debate about whether to suppress his results he
>decides, screw it, these were the kids who beat me up because I wore
>glasses, and laughed at me because I was smarter, and if they were
>women never dated me -- kill 'em all. So he releases the terrible
>secret.

L. Sprague De Camp. And it was worse than that -- he _had_ been married, to a
terrible woman. It was basically a simple equation that would let anyone with
very moderate technical skill start a self-sustaining "Arkon bomb" type
reaction, turning the whole planet into a fireball.

Robert A. Woodward

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Aug 11, 2001, 1:22:55 AM8/11/01
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In article <mE1d7.6904$3K6.83...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
Richard Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:21:09 GMT, "Tabu LaRaza"
> <DIGIT...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> >I recently saw an anime film called Blue Submarine no 6 which featured a
> >scientist who wished to extinguish the human race by causing a nuclear war
> >(he already had killed ten billion through a pole shift?). I saw this after
> >reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there any SF that features
> >humanity hating protagonists?
>
> There's a '50s SF story -- I think it's by Asimov, or maybe Anderson,
> about a scientist who discovers a secret that will inevitably lead to
> the destruction of the Earth (super nuclear war, or something), and
> after some internal debate about whether to suppress his results he
> decides, screw it, these were the kids who beat me up because I wore
> glasses, and laughed at me because I was smarter, and if they were
> women never dated me -- kill 'em all. So he releases the terrible
> secret.

L. Sprague de Camp, "Judgement Day" (ASF, August 1955).

--
robe...@drizzle.com http://www.halcyon.com/robertaw/
rawoo...@aol.com
robe...@halcyon.com

Mark Atwood

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Aug 11, 2001, 2:00:10 AM8/11/01
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jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) writes:
> "Arkon bomb"

Ref, "Arkon bomb"?

I glarked the meaning, but what's it from?

--
Mark Atwood | I'm wearing black only until I find something darker.
m...@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~mra

Jordan S. Bassior

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Aug 11, 2001, 2:19:32 AM8/11/01
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Mark Atwood said:

>
>jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) writes:
>> "Arkon bomb"
>
>Ref, "Arkon bomb"?
>
>I glarked the meaning, but what's it from?

A very nasty weapon from _Perry Rhodan_ -- and the first time I encountered the
"planet buster" concept :)

William Clifford

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Aug 11, 2001, 3:00:54 AM8/11/01
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In <lawrenceperson-107...@news.jump.net>,
Lawrence Person <lawrenc...@jump.net> wrote:
> In article <VmXc7.6608$pg5.79...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
> "Tabu LaRaza" <DIGIT...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>> I recently saw an anime film called Blue Submarine no 6 which featured a
>> scientist who wished to extinguish the human race by causing a nuclear war
>> (he already had killed ten billion through a pole shift?). I saw this after
>> reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there any SF that features
>> humanity hating protagonists?
>>
> The platform of the Green Party.

"Because you... are hurting... the green."

(which is my way of nominating Jason Woodrue from a particular issue of
_Swamp Thing_ by Alan Moore.)

--
| William Clifford | wo...@yahoo.com | http://wobh.home.mindspring.com |
|"Stick to what you know is good advice for a writing seminar, but it |
| will never get you in the ring with Homer." |
| --Joel Stein on Thomas Pynchon, Time, 7.9.01 |

James Nicoll

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Aug 11, 2001, 7:27:56 AM8/11/01
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"Tabu LaRaza" <DIGIT...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>I recently saw an anime film called Blue Submarine no 6 which featured a
>scientist who wished to extinguish the human race by causing a nuclear war
>(he already had killed ten billion through a pole shift?). I saw this after
>reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there any SF that features
>humanity hating protagonists?

Hrm. There is DeCamp's tale about the fellow who has devised a
way to easily destroy the planet, debating with himself whether or not
to publish. DOn't recall the name, though.

jeff suzuki

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Aug 11, 2001, 8:58:16 AM8/11/01
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Lawrence Person wrote:
>
> The platform of the Green Party.
>

And, though it's only marginally SF, _Rainbow Six_ (Clancy's next to
latest).

Jeffs

Peter Bruells

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Aug 10, 2001, 8:00:00 PM8/10/01
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Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> writes:

> jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) writes:
>> "Arkon bomb"

> Ref, "Arkon bomb"?

> I glarked the meaning, but what's it from?

Perry Rhodan pulp fiction. A planet-killer weapon that starts a
self-sustaining "atomic fire" which consumes an Earthylike planet
within days.

Geoduck

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Aug 11, 2001, 11:42:37 AM8/11/01
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On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:13:51 -0400, "Brenda W. Clough"
<clo...@erols.com> wrote:

>
>
>Tabu LaRaza wrote:
>
>> I recently saw an anime film called Blue Submarine no 6 which featured a
>> scientist who wished to extinguish the human race by causing a nuclear war
>> (he already had killed ten billion through a pole shift?). I saw this after
>> reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there any SF that features
>> humanity hating protagonists?
>
>Over in BATMAN the arch-villain Ra's al Ghul's avowed goal is to purify the
>planet and off ninety percent or so of the human race. He will then of course
>rule the remnants.

The title character in M. J. Engh's _Arslan_ essentially wipes out
humanity by deliberately sterilizing everyone.

Strieber and Kunetka's _Nature's End_ also has a religious leader who
is plotting a similar scheme.
--
Geoduck
http://www.olywa.net/cook

Tabu LaRaza

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Aug 11, 2001, 12:02:21 PM8/11/01
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In what series would I find this arch villain? By the way I loved your last
two novels.

TR.
"Brenda W. Clough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3B7478BF...@erols.com...

Tabu LaRaza

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Aug 11, 2001, 12:04:11 PM8/11/01
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Thanks for the DeCamp suggestion. It sounds a little like Herbert's White
Plague which I suspect the author of Blue No6 borrowed from.

TR

"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9l34rs$r5f$1...@panix1.panix.com...

Nancy Lebovitz

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Aug 11, 2001, 2:09:43 PM8/11/01
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In article <%Hcd7.7807$yf5.194...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>,

Tabu LaRaza <DIGIT...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hrm. There is DeCamp's tale about the fellow who has devised a
>> way to easily destroy the planet, debating with himself whether or not
>> to publish. DOn't recall the name, though.
>
It was in _A Gun for Dinosaur_--the title might have been "Judgement Day".
The scientist(?) inventor(?) had been bullied as a child, didn't get
involved with people as a result, and had just been the subject of a
nasty practical joke and/or vandalism.


--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com

Nancy Lebovitz

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Aug 11, 2001, 2:12:26 PM8/11/01
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In article <VmXc7.6608$pg5.79...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
The first Kage Baker novel (_Garden of Iden_?) had a protagonist who
hates the human race, but isn't doing anything drastic about it.

Monte Davis

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Aug 11, 2001, 3:24:15 PM8/11/01
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jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

Or with a nastier twist, Kornbluth's "The Words of Guru."

Ide Cyan

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Aug 11, 2001, 3:22:28 PM8/11/01
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Well, nobody's mentioned it yet: The Last Flight of Dr. Ain.

--
"I knew a girl at school called Pandora.
Never got to see her box, though."
- Spike, Notting Hill.

Tabu LaRaza

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Aug 11, 2001, 6:59:27 PM8/11/01
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Do you have an author's name to go with it?
TR

> Well, nobody's mentioned it yet: The Last Flight of Dr. Ain.
>
> --

.


Richard Horton

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Aug 11, 2001, 7:02:59 PM8/11/01
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That's the one! (Thanks also to Fred Galvin -- and James and Nancy
were on the track of the same story, too.)

Elf Sternberg

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Aug 11, 2001, 10:28:03 PM8/11/01
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In article <lawrenceperson-107...@news.jump.net>
Lawrence Person <lawrenc...@jump.net> writes:

>> I saw this after reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there
>> any SF that features humanity hating protagonists?

>The platform of the Green Party.

The chairman of the Federal Stem Cell Research Ethics Committee.

Elf

--
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http://www.halcyon.com/elf/

Dvorak Keyboards: Frgp ucpoy ncb. ru e.u.bo.v

Ide Cyan

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Aug 11, 2001, 11:39:14 PM8/11/01
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Tabu LaRaza wrote:
> > Well, nobody's mentioned it yet: The Last Flight of Dr. Ain.
>
> Do you have an author's name to go with it?

James Tiptree Jr., of course.

Jason Bontrager

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Aug 12, 2001, 12:12:42 AM8/12/01
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Elf Sternberg wrote:
>
> In article <lawrenceperson-107...@news.jump.net>
> Lawrence Person <lawrenc...@jump.net> writes:
>
> >> I saw this after reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there
> >> any SF that features humanity hating protagonists?
>
> >The platform of the Green Party.
>
>The chairman of the Federal Stem Cell Research Ethics Committee.

Leon Kass.

Oh, wait, he's not SF. Damn, if he were I could
throw him at the wall:-(.

Jason B.


.

Tabu LaRaza

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Aug 12, 2001, 1:43:48 AM8/12/01
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Thanks!

I plead ignorance to her work --could you give me a collection in which the
title is collected ,

TR
"Ide Cyan" <ide_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3B75FA62...@yahoo.com...

Ide Cyan

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Aug 12, 2001, 2:37:59 AM8/12/01
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Tabu LaRaza wrote:
> Thanks!
>
> I plead ignorance to her work --could you give me a collection in which the
> title is collected ,

According to http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb-bin/pwork.cgi?564159

Publication History

For: The Last Flight of Dr. Ain

1.Galaxy Science Fiction, March 1969, Frederik Pohl, 1969, $.60
2.SF: Authors' Choice 4, Harry Harrison, 1974, G. P. Putnam's, hc
3.Warm Worlds and Otherwise, James Tiptree, Jr., 1975, Ballantine,
0-345-28022-9, $1.95, pb
4.Warm Worlds and Otherwise, James Tiptree, Jr., 1975, Ballantine,
#345-24380-3, $1.50, pb
5.Galaxy, Frederik Pohl+Martin H. Greenberg+Joseph D. Olander, 1980,
Playboy Press, 0-87223-568-8, $10.95, hc
6.Galaxy, Frederik Pohl+Martin H. Greenberg+Joseph D. Olander, 1980,
Playboy, 0-87223-568-8, $10.95, hc
7.Galaxy Volume 2, Frederik Pohl+Martin H. Greenberg+Joseph D.
Olander, 1981, Playboy Paperbacks 0-872-16926-X, $2.50, pb
8.Road to SF 4, James E. Gunn, 1982, Mentor, pb
9.Yesterday's Tomorrows, Frederik Pohl, 1982, Berkley, 0-425-05648-1,
$9.95 ($10.95 Can), tp
10.The Road to Science Fiction #4, James E. Gunn, 1982, Mentor,
0-451-62136-0, $4.95, pb
11.Her Smoke Rose Up Forever, James Tiptree, Jr., 1990, Arkham House,
$25.95, hc

Charlie Stross

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Aug 12, 2001, 4:49:01 AM8/12/01
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Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
as <je...@bu.edu> declared:

If you're not careful I'll post some spoiler-type comments for this one.

Clue: "Rainbow Six" was so incredibly _bad_ that I kept turning the pages
right to the end, looking for more idiocy to boggle at.

-- Charlie

"Your password must be at least 18770 characters and cannot repeat any of your
previous 30689 passwords. Please type a different password. Type a password
that meets these requirements in both text boxes."
(Error message from Microsoft Windows 2000 SP1)

trike

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Aug 12, 2001, 8:02:17 AM8/12/01
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Brenda W. Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3B7478BF...@erols.com...
>
>
> Tabu LaRaza wrote:
>
> > I recently saw an anime film called Blue Submarine no 6 which featured a
> > scientist who wished to extinguish the human race by causing a nuclear
war
> > (he already had killed ten billion through a pole shift?). I saw this

after
> > reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there any SF that features
> > humanity hating protagonists?
>
> Over in BATMAN the arch-villain Ra's al Ghul's avowed goal is to purify
the
> planet and off ninety percent or so of the human race. He will then of
course
> rule the remnants.
>
> Brenda

Well, if you're letting in comic books, then there's that Big Magnetic Dude
over in X-Men who has it in for humans.

Although I think all superhero comics are fantasies, but that's another
thread....

--
Doug
--
Moviedogs v3.0: your favorite dogs in your favorite films:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/1910

Spike, Tiggy & Panda's Pug-A-Rama:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/1910

Pete McCutchen

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Aug 12, 2001, 8:38:53 AM8/12/01
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On 10 Aug 2001 21:03:37 GMT, jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior)
wrote:

>Tabu LaRaza said:
>
>>I recently saw an anime film called Blue Submarine no 6 which featured a
>>scientist who wished to extinguish the human race by causing a nuclear war
>>(he already had killed ten billion through a pole shift?). I saw this after
>>reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there any SF that features
>>humanity hating protagonists?
>

>S. M. Stirling's recent _Infiltrator_ (part of the _Terminator_ continuity)
>features Serena, a mostly-human Terminator cyborg who hates humanity even more
>than does Skynet.

Is she a lesbian?
--

Pete McCutchen

Jason Bontrager

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Aug 12, 2001, 11:11:38 AM8/12/01
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Based on the sample chapters at the smstirling website,
she's bi-sexual. Those chapters were posted well before
the book was published though, so he might have changed
that.

Jason B.

.

Jordan S. Bassior

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Aug 12, 2001, 11:30:19 AM8/12/01
to
Pete McCutchen said:

>>S. M. Stirling's recent _Infiltrator_ (part of the _Terminator_ continuity)
>>features Serena, a mostly-human Terminator cyborg who hates humanity even
more
>>than does Skynet.
>
>Is she a lesbian?

No.

Insofar as she has any sexual preference beyond "Kill humans," she's hetero.

artyw

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Aug 12, 2001, 12:00:12 PM8/12/01
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"Tabu LaRaza" <DIGIT...@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<VmXc7.6608$pg5.79...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>...

> I recently saw an anime film called Blue Submarine no 6 which featured a
> scientist who wished to extinguish the human race by causing a nuclear war
> (he already had killed ten billion through a pole shift?). I saw this after
> reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there any SF that features
> humanity hating protagonists?
>
In the Robert Silverberg novel, The Man in the Maze, aliens do
something to the protagonist so that he can not co-exist with humans.
"Hating" may not be exactly the write word, though.

Tabu LaRaza

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Aug 12, 2001, 4:21:02 PM8/12/01
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Again thanks--now its off to half.com!

TR


"Ide Cyan" <ide_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:3B762447...@yahoo.com...

TLambs1138

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Aug 12, 2001, 4:40:02 PM8/12/01
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A lot of Sheri Tepper books...


Jean Lamb, tlamb...@cs.com
"Fun will now commence!" - Seven of Nine

Charles Dyer

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Aug 12, 2001, 6:48:30 PM8/12/01
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On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 3:49:01 -0500, Charlie Stross wrote
(in message <slrn9ncgnt....@antipope.nsl.co.uk>):

> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <je...@bu.edu> declared:
>
>> Lawrence Person wrote:
>>>
>>> The platform of the Green Party.
>>
>> And, though it's only marginally SF, _Rainbow Six_ (Clancy's next to
>> latest).
>
> If you're not careful I'll post some spoiler-type comments for this one.
>
> Clue: "Rainbow Six" was so incredibly _bad_ that I kept turning the pages
> right to the end, looking for more idiocy to boggle at.

Clancy has acheived brain meltdown. _Rainbow Six_ is the worst book he's ever
written, and he's produced some stinkers. It's even worse than the 'in the
world of' sharcropping books he let loose under his name. (Well, it's worse
than the single example fo the type I've read, maybe some of the others are
as bad, though I doubt it.) He's producing stuff that if was written by
someone else would never be published, kinda like what RAH was doing, near
the end... and while it took RAH decades and much medical problems to get
there, Clancy has done it in less than half the time and with no medical
excuses. And Clancy at his best wasn't as good as RAH at his best, while
Clancy at his worst...

>
>
>
> -- Charlie
>
> "Your password must be at least 18770 characters and cannot repeat any of
> your
> previous 30689 passwords. Please type a different password. Type a password
> that meets these requirements in both text boxes."
> (Error message from Microsoft Windows 2000
> SP1)
>

I like it. I like it.

--
Newsweek on tradenames:

Microsoft is a bad tradename. Micro and soft... needs Viagra.

David T. Bilek

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Aug 12, 2001, 10:50:22 PM8/12/01
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Charles Dyer <charl...@mac.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 3:49:01 -0500, Charlie Stross wrote
>(in message <slrn9ncgnt....@antipope.nsl.co.uk>):
>
>> Clue: "Rainbow Six" was so incredibly _bad_ that I kept turning the pages
>> right to the end, looking for more idiocy to boggle at.
>
>Clancy has acheived brain meltdown. _Rainbow Six_ is the worst book he's ever
>written, and he's produced some stinkers. It's even worse than the 'in the
>world of' sharcropping books he let loose under his name. (Well, it's worse
>than the single example fo the type I've read, maybe some of the others are
>as bad, though I doubt it.) He's producing stuff that if was written by
>someone else would never be published, kinda like what RAH was doing, near
>the end... and while it took RAH decades and much medical problems to get
>there, Clancy has done it in less than half the time and with no medical
>excuses. And Clancy at his best wasn't as good as RAH at his best, while
>Clancy at his worst...
>

I take it you didn't read _The Bear and the Dragon_. Pound for pound
it might be more bloated than Tad Williams' just completed elephant
choker. And I never thought I'd ever be able to say that about
anything.

(Of course, there were 4 bloated books in Williams' series to the one
Clancy, so the sheer mass of bloat is still on Williams' side.)

-David

Jordan S. Bassior

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Aug 13, 2001, 1:22:44 AM8/13/01
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I state publicly that I _liked_ BOTH _Rainbow Six_ and _The Bear and the
Dragon_. So nyah :)

David T. Bilek

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Aug 13, 2001, 2:06:34 AM8/13/01
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On 13 Aug 2001 05:22:44 GMT, jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior)
wrote:

>I state publicly that I _liked_ BOTH _Rainbow Six_ and _The Bear and the
>Dragon_. So nyah :)
>

Oh, I finished _TBatD_ which is something I haven't been doing a lot
of lately, so though I'd never begin to claim that Clancy, or the
stable of writers he has writing for him if what I hear is true, are
geat writers, they have *something* going for them.

But you didn't find the 3 or 4 pages of extraneous interior monologue
almost *every time* he switched POV's just the least bit tedious? It
was regular as clockwork! I wanted to slap him and yell "get ON with
it already!"

-David

Jordan S. Bassior

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Aug 13, 2001, 2:42:37 AM8/13/01
to
David T. Bilek said:

>But you didn't find the 3 or 4 pages of extraneous interior monologue
>almost *every time* he switched POV's just the least bit tedious? It
>was regular as clockwork! I wanted to slap him and yell "get ON with
>it already!"

I'm a fast reader.

David T. Bilek

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Aug 13, 2001, 3:35:45 AM8/13/01
to
On 13 Aug 2001 06:42:37 GMT, jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior)
wrote:

>David T. Bilek said:


>
>>But you didn't find the 3 or 4 pages of extraneous interior monologue
>>almost *every time* he switched POV's just the least bit tedious? It
>>was regular as clockwork! I wanted to slap him and yell "get ON with
>>it already!"
>
>I'm a fast reader.
>

It's an artistic difference then, I guess. I've got nothing against
pure slam-bang action novels with no deeper meaning, but IMO if thats
what you're writing, you've got to keep the pace going a bit faster.
The book is about blowing the hell out of the Chinese armed forces.
We know it going in. Show me some Chinese armed forces being blown
up before page 900(!) dammit!!

-David

Jordan S. Bassior

unread,
Aug 13, 2001, 5:19:20 AM8/13/01
to
David T. Bilek said:

>It's an artistic difference then, I guess. I've got nothing against
>pure slam-bang action novels with no deeper meaning, but IMO if thats
>what you're writing, you've got to keep the pace going a bit faster.

That isn't what Clancy writes. His novels have a _lot_ of "deeper meaning" --
you just don't agree with his themes.

Charles Dyer

unread,
Aug 13, 2001, 7:35:14 AM8/13/01
to
On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:50:22 -0500, David T. Bilek wrote
(in message <3b773f94....@nntp.we.mediaone.net>):

> Charles Dyer <charl...@mac.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 3:49:01 -0500, Charlie Stross wrote
>> (in message <slrn9ncgnt....@antipope.nsl.co.uk>):
>>
>>> Clue: "Rainbow Six" was so incredibly _bad_ that I kept turning the pages
>>> right to the end, looking for more idiocy to boggle at.
>>
>> Clancy has acheived brain meltdown. _Rainbow Six_ is the worst book he's
>> ever
>> written, and he's produced some stinkers. It's even worse than the 'in the
>> world of' sharcropping books he let loose under his name. (Well, it's
>> worse
>> than the single example fo the type I've read, maybe some of the others
>> are
>> as bad, though I doubt it.) He's producing stuff that if was written by
>> someone else would never be published, kinda like what RAH was doing, near
>> the end... and while it took RAH decades and much medical problems to get
>> there, Clancy has done it in less than half the time and with no medical
>> excuses. And Clancy at his best wasn't as good as RAH at his best, while
>> Clancy at his worst...
>>
>
> I take it you didn't read _The Bear and the Dragon_.

I read it. It's better than _Rainbow Six_. It's better than _Executive
Action_.

Of course, being better than those two isn't hard.

> Pound for pound
> it might be more bloated than Tad Williams' just completed elephant
> choker. And I never thought I'd ever be able to say that about
> anything.

I take it that _you_ haven't read Harry Turtledov's 'Worldwar' and 'Second
Contact' books? If I read one more time, just one more time, about that
blasted knight in his blasted rusty armour on his blasted nag, I swear that
I'll go to LA and do somethnig that I'll need Johnny Cochran to get out of.

>
> (Of course, there were 4 bloated books in Williams' series to the one
> Clancy, so the sheer mass of bloat is still on Williams' side.)

The Turtledove count is seven. And he's moving on with the 'Great War' and
'American Empire' books, too. At least he kills off characters in those books
before they can bleat the readers to death.

And yet he _can_ write good stuff; _The Guns of the South_, _The Case of the
Toxic Spell Dump_, the Scarus books...
>
> -David

Tabu LaRaza

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Aug 13, 2001, 12:26:25 PM8/13/01
to
Is Tepper limited to just hating men or is there specific character's who
hate the race?

TR
"TLambs1138" <tlamb...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010812164002...@ng-bg1.news.cs.com...

Jordan S. Bassior

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Aug 13, 2001, 12:39:49 PM8/13/01
to
Tabu LaRaza said:

>Is Tepper limited to just hating men or is there specific character's who
>hate the race?

Don't know about "characters," but in _Galapagos_, Kurt Vonnegut pretty much
seems to hate everything about humanity that makes us human -- big brains,
hands, upright posture.

No, I'm not kidding -- and it's _explicit_ in the book. Read it.

Geoffrey Kidd

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Aug 13, 2001, 12:53:56 PM8/13/01
to
On 13 Aug 2001 05:22:44 GMT, jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior)
wrote:

>I state publicly that I _liked_ BOTH _Rainbow Six_ and _The Bear and the

My problem with "Rainbow Six" was that every time one of the
snipers on the team fired, I kept hearing the name "Vicki Weaver"
whispering in my ear. Couldn't finish the book as a result.

Geoffrey Kidd

unread,
Aug 13, 2001, 12:51:50 PM8/13/01
to
On 11 Aug 2001 07:27:56 -0400, jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll)
wrote:

>"Tabu LaRaza" <DIGIT...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>>
>>I recently saw an anime film called Blue Submarine no 6 which featured a
>>scientist who wished to extinguish the human race by causing a nuclear war
>>(he already had killed ten billion through a pole shift?). I saw this after
>>reading Heart of Darkness and my question is- there any SF that features
>>humanity hating protagonists?
>

> Hrm. There is DeCamp's tale about the fellow who has devised a
>way to easily destroy the planet, debating with himself whether or not
>to publish. DOn't recall the name, though.

The deCamp story is "Judgment Day". It's in print at
www.fictionwise.com

Jordan S. Bassior

unread,
Aug 13, 2001, 12:58:46 PM8/13/01
to
Charles Dyer said:

>I take it that _you_ haven't read Harry Turtledov's 'Worldwar' and 'Second
>Contact' books? If I read one more time, just one more time, about that
>blasted knight in his blasted rusty armour on his blasted nag, I swear that
>I'll go to LA and do somethnig that I'll need Johnny Cochran to get out of.

Ah, but you miss the significance of that image. It _mocks_ the Race -- they
were _hoping_ that we hadn't progressed too far beyond that point. Instead,
they came to our system to find us within a century or two of their own
technology.

Nasty surprise :)


--
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
--
"To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On
the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too
late." (Churchill, 1934)

--

jeff suzuki

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Aug 13, 2001, 1:07:05 PM8/13/01
to
"David T. Bilek" wrote:
>
> Oh, I finished _TBatD_ which is something I haven't been doing a lot
> of lately, so though I'd never begin to claim that Clancy, or the
> stable of writers he has writing for him if what I hear is true, are
> geat writers, they have *something* going for them.

Martin H. Greenberg (I think) once did an analysis of Clancy's works
and why they were so popular (I'm a Clancy fan, just so you know which
direction this is heading in...) The main thing that came out is that
his works were popular for several reasons, the main ones being that:

1) His works suggest that, for the most part, the people of the US
aren't evil, fools, or incompetents, but neither are they
supermen: they do things well because they work hard at it.

2) As a corollary to #1, his books actually have heroes. So much
of modern so-called literature seems to enshrine the anti-hero.
Personally, I'd rather not read a story about someone I'd sooner
shoot than befriend.

His last few books, BTW, have been a lot _less_ bloated than my all
time least favorite, _The Sum of All Fears_.

Jeffs

jeff suzuki

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Aug 13, 2001, 1:09:07 PM8/13/01
to
Monte Davis wrote:
>
> Or with a nastier twist, Kornbluth's "The Words of Guru."

That doesn't really count as "hating humanity" per se: the main
character didn't have enough empathy with humanity to actually "hate"
it. Humanity was more a plaything, to be disposed of at will.

Jeffs

Jordan S. Bassior

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Aug 13, 2001, 1:12:07 PM8/13/01
to
Geoffrey Kidd said:

>My problem with "Rainbow Six" was that every time one of the
>snipers on the team fired, I kept hearing the name "Vicki Weaver"
>whispering in my ear. Couldn't finish the book as a result.

I'm not going to hate the FBI, or their snipers, in general, because of Ruby
Ridge.


--
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
--
"To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On
the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too
late." (Churchill, 1934)

--

Geoffrey Kidd

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Aug 13, 2001, 1:26:49 PM8/13/01
to
On 13 Aug 2001 17:12:07 GMT, jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior)
wrote:

>Geoffrey Kidd said:


>
>>My problem with "Rainbow Six" was that every time one of the
>>snipers on the team fired, I kept hearing the name "Vicki Weaver"
>>whispering in my ear. Couldn't finish the book as a result.
>
>I'm not going to hate the FBI, or their snipers, in general, because of Ruby
>Ridge.
>--
>Sincerely Yours,
>Jordan

The problem is Clancy's overt assumption that the guys who work for
the government are AUTOMATICALLY the good guys, pure and noble.

And just try to tell ME that a man trained 1. To drive a tack with a
rifle at 400 yards and 2. Fire that rifle ONLY when he is absolutely
CERTAIN where the round will go (cf. the sniper in R6 who deliberately
hits a child-killer in the spleen to make him die as painfully as
possible) will "just spray some lead and happen accidentally
to hit somebody right in the carotid artery".

Bertil Jonell

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Aug 13, 2001, 2:05:35 PM8/13/01
to
In article <20010813012244...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,

Jordan S. Bassior <jsba...@aol.com> wrote:
>I state publicly that I _liked_ BOTH _Rainbow Six_ and _The Bear and the
>Dragon_. So nyah :)

The main problem with Bear & Dragon is that the Chinese high command
doesn't follow Chinese doctrine.
And their PR skills compare unfavorably with those of Serbia...

>Jordan

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
exercise for your kill-file."

jeff suzuki

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Aug 13, 2001, 3:21:48 PM8/13/01
to
Geoffrey Kidd wrote:
>
> The problem is Clancy's overt assumption that the guys who work for
> the government are AUTOMATICALLY the good guys, pure and noble.

Not at all; Clancy has many government workers who are not pure, not
good, and not noble. _Rainbow Six_ has Carol Brightling. _Clear and
Present Danger_ has Admiral Cutter. _Sum of All Fears_ has,
well, almost everyone above the level of Jack Ryan. In fact in
Clancy's corpus, as a rule, the higher a person is in the government,
the less good and less noble they are; only the "grunts" have
nobility of character.

Clancy's overt assumption is that the protagonists (the ones that
we're supposed to like) are the good guys, pure and noble. Nothing
wrong with that, unless you want to claim that no one could possibly
be good, or pure, or noble.

Now there is a class of so-called literature where the protagonists
are cynical, evil, bastards who deserve to die, and where no one is
good, or pure, or noble: John Grisham writes stuff like that. I
don't know why anyone would want to read fiction about such "heroes"
when they can just flip open any newspaper and read the real thing,
though Grisham's stuff seems to show there's a market for such
depressing material.

But if I'm going to read fiction, I'm going to read something that I
can't get in the daily news: something where, dammit, good intentions,
good planning, and hard work (plus a little good luck) do, actually,
win the day. I can't help it; I'm an optimist, and think that the
US has a future---if we're willing to work at it. That's one of
Clancy's main messages.

Now, maybe it's true that there are very few people who are good, or
noble, or pure; the daily news says they are pretty rare. But then
again, most people spend their lives working 9-5 jobs. This doesn't
mean I want to read about the life of Joe the Accountant, who goes
to work on the 8:30 and comes home on the 5:30, and whose major
excitement in life is when the cafeteria runs out of tuna.

Jeffs

Mark Atwood

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Aug 13, 2001, 3:52:49 PM8/13/01
to
jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) writes:

> Geoffrey Kidd said:
>
> >My problem with "Rainbow Six" was that every time one of the
> >snipers on the team fired, I kept hearing the name "Vicki Weaver"
> >whispering in my ear. Couldn't finish the book as a result.
>
> I'm not going to hate the FBI, or their snipers, in general, because of Ruby
> Ridge.

I will, as long as they keep defending and hiding and justify him.

Fucking "blue brick wall".

--
Mark Atwood | I'm wearing black only until I find something darker.
m...@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~mra

Steve Hilberg

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Aug 13, 2001, 4:04:10 PM8/13/01
to
Charles Dyer <charl...@mac.com> writes:
>On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 3:49:01 -0500, Charlie Stross wrote
>(in message <slrn9ncgnt....@antipope.nsl.co.uk>):
>> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
>> as <je...@bu.edu> declared:
>>
>>> Lawrence Person wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The platform of the Green Party.
>>>
>>> And, though it's only marginally SF, _Rainbow Six_ (Clancy's next to
>>> latest).
>>
>> If you're not careful I'll post some spoiler-type comments for this one.
>>
>> Clue: "Rainbow Six" was so incredibly _bad_ that I kept turning the pages
>> right to the end, looking for more idiocy to boggle at.

>Clancy has acheived brain meltdown. _Rainbow Six_ is the worst book he's ever
>written, and he's produced some stinkers. It's even worse than the 'in the
>world of' sharcropping books he let loose under his name. (Well, it's worse
>than the single example fo the type I've read, maybe some of the others are
>as bad, though I doubt it.) He's producing stuff that if was written by
>someone else would never be published, kinda like what RAH was doing, near
>the end... and while it took RAH decades and much medical problems to get
>there, Clancy has done it in less than half the time and with no medical
>excuses. And Clancy at his best wasn't as good as RAH at his best, while
>Clancy at his worst...

Hrm....while I have been pretty disgusted with Clancy since anything after
Sum of All Fears, I did read Rainbow Six and didn't think it was too bad
(no HFRO or RSR, but...), mostly because there was very little Jack Ryan
involved in the book at all. :P What did you find so horrible about the
book? Was it the general quality of the writing or the science or something
else entirely? Or am I going to get "yes" as an answer? :)

--
Steve Hilberg <Necromancer> CCSO Workstation Support Group
<hil...@uiuc.edu> KB9TEV
Member, APAGear CCSO _still_ doesn't pay me enough to
http://www.apagear.org speak for them, so I still don't.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"As we were forged we shall return, perhaps some day. | VNV Nation,
I will remember you and wonder who we were." | "Further"

David T. Bilek

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Aug 13, 2001, 4:06:51 PM8/13/01
to
On 13 Aug 2001 09:19:20 GMT, jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior)
wrote:

>David T. Bilek said:


>
>>It's an artistic difference then, I guess. I've got nothing against
>>pure slam-bang action novels with no deeper meaning, but IMO if thats
>>what you're writing, you've got to keep the pace going a bit faster.
>
>That isn't what Clancy writes. His novels have a _lot_ of "deeper meaning" --
>you just don't agree with his themes.
>

The theme seemed to be "Freedom and the USA kick ass, China is
horrible and much of the leadership evil! Oh, and we should help
Russia a lot more so that they can be free and kick ass too!" which I
agree with. I just don't consider that a "deeper meaning" since it
was so blatant.

Does _Red Storm Rising_ count as alternative history now that the wall
fell? It's far more plausible than, say, _Stars and Stripes Forever_.

-David

Charles Frederick Goodin

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Aug 13, 2001, 4:02:19 PM8/13/01
to
In article <20010812113019...@mb-mo.aol.com>,

Jordan S. Bassior <jsba...@aol.com> wrote:
>Pete McCutchen said:
>
>>>S. M. Stirling's recent _Infiltrator_ (part of the _Terminator_ continuity)
>>>features Serena, a mostly-human Terminator cyborg who hates humanity even
>more
>>>than does Skynet.
>>
>>Is she a lesbian?
>
>No.
>
>Insofar as she has any sexual preference beyond "Kill humans," she's hetero.

I'd say she's "none of the above", but the book shows her in a
"relationship" with a woman for part of the time. She may not technically
be a lesbian, but she'd look like one to an on the scene observer.

--
chuk

Steve Hilberg

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Aug 13, 2001, 4:09:29 PM8/13/01
to

Hrm....Sum of All Fears was the last one I thought was decent. Once
Jack Ryan starts becoming Pope (or whatever :P), I sort of lost
interest. To me, it read like one of those RPG fanfics where the
person's PC became an ubergod of 4 zillionth level for no apparent
reason. Barf. Jack Ryan was much more interesting as an everyman
caught up in extraordinary situations.

David T. Bilek

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Aug 13, 2001, 4:08:48 PM8/13/01
to
On Mon, 13 Aug 2001 6:35:14 -0500, Charles Dyer <charl...@mac.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:50:22 -0500, David T. Bilek wrote
>(in message <3b773f94....@nntp.we.mediaone.net>):
>

>> Pound for pound (re: Clancy's latest)


>> it might be more bloated than Tad Williams' just completed elephant
>> choker. And I never thought I'd ever be able to say that about
>> anything.
>
>I take it that _you_ haven't read Harry Turtledov's 'Worldwar' and 'Second
>Contact' books? If I read one more time, just one more time, about that
>blasted knight in his blasted rusty armour on his blasted nag, I swear that
>I'll go to LA and do somethnig that I'll need Johnny Cochran to get out of.
>

No, I haven't read those. I think I'll avoid them, given the above.

>>
>> (Of course, there were 4 bloated books in Williams' series to the one
>> Clancy, so the sheer mass of bloat is still on Williams' side.)
>
>The Turtledove count is seven. And he's moving on with the 'Great War' and
>'American Empire' books, too. At least he kills off characters in those books
>before they can bleat the readers to death.
>

On the other hand, I *have* read these. While I have some significant
problems with them, I thought they were much less bloated than the
Williams or Clancy. Their pace is fairly consistent, and so on.

-David

J.B. Moreno

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Aug 13, 2001, 4:14:07 PM8/13/01
to
Jordan S. Bassior <jsba...@aol.com> wrote:

> Charles Dyer said:
>
> >I take it that _you_ haven't read Harry Turtledov's 'Worldwar' and 'Second
> >Contact' books? If I read one more time, just one more time, about that
> >blasted knight in his blasted rusty armour on his blasted nag, I swear that
> >I'll go to LA and do somethnig that I'll need Johnny Cochran to get out of.
>
> Ah, but you miss the significance of that image. It _mocks_ the Race -- they
> were _hoping_ that we hadn't progressed too far beyond that point. Instead,
> they came to our system to find us within a century or two of their own
> technology.
>
> Nasty surprise :)

I wouldn't say "mock" exactly -- it is more trying to say that they are
inferior to humans because they don't progress as quickly and couldn't
even imagine a species that does.

Regardless, it doesn't need to be pointed out more than once per book
and it doesn't need to use the same image -- after the original it would
have been sufficient to say they had cultural statis down to an art
form, coming up with a new idea every 20 thousand years.

--
JBM
"Your depression will be added to my own" -- Marvin of Borg

Steve Hilberg

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Aug 13, 2001, 4:12:12 PM8/13/01
to
d9be...@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>In article <20010813012244...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,
>Jordan S. Bassior <jsba...@aol.com> wrote:
>>I state publicly that I _liked_ BOTH _Rainbow Six_ and _The Bear and the