A SF novel set in today's 2023, written in 1963

[Thomas Koenig]

Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.

What would you write about?

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <tv7i12$2gihk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,

Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed
Cellphone Culture. So that. Probably weave the Musk "Delos D. Harriman"
story in as the plot. That lets you bring in Space, Social Media, War,
Cars, & Politics. Hopefully since it's 1963, we don't get a 70s ending..
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Lynn McGuire]

Throwing crap into the Sun.

Lynn

[WolfFan]

On Mar 19, 2023, Thomas Koenig wrote
(in article<tv7i12$2gihk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>):

Been done, kinda. I can’t remember the name of the story or the author,
but...

Obvious RAH clone goes to obvious JWC clone with a manuscript... of a story
that JWC has just published, under someone else’s name. They track down the
author. She’s a time-traveller from the near future, and has sold stories
like the RAH-type story, a Clarke story is specifically mentioned as being in
the process of being liberated from Playboy, and also some ’near-future’
stories, including ’Tet Offensive’ and ‘Houston, We Have a Problem’.
The RAH clone has a little talk with her, and is introduced to desktop
computers, impact printers (my girl departed the future prior to the Great
Replacement of daisy-wheel and dot-matrix printers by lasers and inkjets, or
maybe she figured to get better use out of the impact printers, remember that
in the long-lost 1950s you had to submit actual hardcopy and laser or inkjet
printed copy might be remarked upon.) and to Star Wars. Obvious RAH clone is
not as wild about ‘free love’ as RAH, (or at least RAH in print, no idea
how he behaved irl) turns time-traveller’s advances down.

[Don]

Ted Nolan wrote:

> Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
>>Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
>>what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
>>social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
>>you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>>
>>What would you write about?
>
> Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed
> Cellphone Culture. So that. Probably weave the Musk "Delos D. Harriman"
> story in as the plot. That lets you bring in Space, Social Media, War,
> Cars, & Politics. Hopefully since it's 1963, we don't get a 70s ending..

Yes! Cellphone Culture changed the world as we knew it. Meanwhile the
meta-verse fights for control of grandpa's websites...

Danke,

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.

[Ahasuerus]

It's Harry Turtledove's "Hindsight" (1984).
https://turtledove.fandom.com/wiki/Literary_Allusions_in_Turtledove%27s_Work
says that "Pete Lundquist" was based on Isaac Asimov, but I thought
the character was closer to Poul Anderson. "Jim McGregor", the
editor of _Astonishing_, was, of course, based on Campbell.
(Presumably Frederik Pohl's _Astonishing Stories_, 1941-1943,
didn't exist in that alternative history.)

[WolfFan]

On Mar 19, 2023, Ahasuerus wrote
(in article<9297a988-0064-4cd5...@googlegroups.com>):

Ah. Thanks. I could have sworn it was RAH...

[David Johnston]

Whatever it was, it would have to be heavy on the internet since that's
the most science fictiony thing about actual 21st century life.
Sometimes I think about how far you'd have to go back in time for a
modern story to work as science fiction and it's usually pretty far back
unless someone in the story has a strong online involvement

[Andrew McDowell]

Science Fiction did not predict the fall of the Soviet Union, so the invasion of a westward looking Ukraine by an authoritarian but non-communist Russia would be so daring as perhaps to be difficult to sell. Precision munitions spotted by drone certainly counts as Science Fiction, though again it might be difficult to combine this convincingly with WWI style trench warfare waged by troops carrying entrenching tools as well as assault rifles. mRNA Covid vaccines might be an easier sell, even topical, as the Nobel Prize for the discovery of DNA was awarded in 1962.

[Mike Spencer]

In 1963, there were just as many crazy people as now -- gun freaks,
believers in space aliens, demon possession or rays, haters of Jews,
gays, blacks, whites, foreigners, abortionists or vegetarians,
conspiracy freaks and religious fanatics of numerous kinds. But the
internet and cell phones have made two things possible that weren't
possible in '63: (1) They can find each other, however socially or
geographically separated, and form cabals and (2) by the same token &
medium, they can be collectively manipulated by Machiavellian
exploiters.

There used to be talk about how the one good thing TV brought us was a
unified view of the world, a base line, however unreal, for culture.
The thousand-channel universe of cable disrupted that. The internet
and phone-chat media have totally demolished it. Even university
education, now that PoMo has infiltrated almost everything other than
hard science, offers no respite from media-engendered social
fragmentation into self-isolated cabals of crazy belief.

That's the story of Tomorrow. How would you depict that convioncingly
to a reader in '63?


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[Charles Packer]

By the 1960s it was clear that all of recorded history could be
vacuumed up and deposited in electronic memory banks. I would
write about 2023 protagonists who use Big Data tools to discover
that toward the end of the 19th century British and German
scholars had gotten together and joined with American rich
industrialists to secretly gain control of the emerging mass
media and use North American culture as a testing laboratory
for cultural manipulation.

[David Johnston]

Not every technological advance has narrative value. mRNA vaccines are
actually pretty dull stuff. The COVID outbreak itself has narrative
potential as a backdrop. You could do a story along the lines of a
person confined for months by quarantining, turning to online gaming and
and ending up addicted to virtual experience while afraid to leave their
house.

[James Nicoll]

In article <21fb9ff0-da12-4de1...@googlegroups.com>,

Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:

>Science Fiction did not predict the fall of the Soviet Union, so
>the invasion of a westward looking Ukraine by an authoritarian
>but non-communist Russia would be so daring as perhaps to be
>difficult to sell.

Well, not the peaceful fall, at any rate.

George Turner's Beloved Sun has a crew of intrepid (and largely
doomed) starfarers return from Barnard's Star to discover that
in the years they were gone, WWIII and what followed rearranged
the world significantly. As I recall, Russia abandoned communism
but managed to preserve the unpleasantness.



--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

[James Nicoll]

In article <87pm94c...@enoch.nodomain.nowhere>,

Missing Man by Katherine MacLean features a radically fragmented
society, although being pre-internet hers works physically. Everyone
has their own neighbourhood and they do their best to ignore the
others.

[James Nicoll]

In article <tv9lum$abl$2...@reader2.panix.com>,

For that matter, Poul Anderson's The Byworlder has an internet of
sorts, filled with all the info you might want (almost). Hardcopy
output only, though.

[Andrew McDowell]

Unfortunately, it's not just Post-Modernism, and it is infiltrating what should be hard science. I have been reading the flagship magazine of the major American academic computer society, CACM, since the 1980s. I started this to read about clever things being done in and with computers. Of course, as computer science has become much more specialised, it has been harder and harder for them to produce articles for a general readership, and they have talked about initiatives to attract practitioners like me. In the March 2023 issue (which was not a special issue devoted to a particular topic) I counted 13 out of 20 articles which had managed to avoid technicalities by focusing on pretty much the same subject, typically called something to do with ethics. This is how AI and automated decision making were grave threats and how all those involved should refuse to work on anything not politically acceptable. Based on these and similar issues, I understand that there are required courses in this, too, where perhaps students can find relief from the stressful activity of getting a program to work by writing essays on how all computer scientists should in fact refuse to pursue activities not regarded as ethical by the ACM.

I am reminded of a no doubt apocryptal story about Saddams nuclear bomb program. The worrying thing was that the US Manhattan project created a working bomb in a few years, starting off by not even knowing that such a thing was practical. Saddam had managed to get some of his scientists expensively educated in nuclear physics at a great American university - how close had they come to creating an Iraqi bomb? As we all know, there was no Iraqi bomb, but the secret reason behind this was - the Iraqi scientists were faithfully following their training, and had not yet finished writing the environmental impact statement.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <33ec72a1-9225-40fa...@googlegroups.com>,

Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>Based on these and similar issues, I understand that there
>are required courses in this, too, where perhaps students can find
>relief from the stressful activity of getting a program to work by
>writing essays on how all computer scientists should in fact refuse to
>pursue activities not regarded as ethical by the ACM.

(Hal Heydt)
Thinking back to my college years, I'd've found writting essays
much more stressful than writing and debugging programs.

Sort of side note... Another effort out there is the expand the
number of people that understand computers well enough grasp the
issues. The idea being to make computer acccess cheap enough
that every parent can afford one, that if broken, won't cause
serious household budget issues. That's much of the point behind
the Raspberry Pi Foundation.

[William Hyde]

On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:55:36 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <33ec72a1-9225-40fa...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >Based on these and similar issues, I understand that there
> >are required courses in this, too, where perhaps students can find
> >relief from the stressful activity of getting a program to work by
> >writing essays on how all computer scientists should in fact refuse to
> >pursue activities not regarded as ethical by the ACM.
> (Hal Heydt)
> Thinking back to my college years, I'd've found writting essays
> much more stressful than writing and debugging programs.

Absolutely.

More satisfying by far, also.

William Hyde

[Dimensional Traveler]

One suspects in part because writing a program has a definitive,
objective goal to complete. School essays are more of a "WTF does the
teacher want to hear?" exercise.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

[Titus G]

I also agree but I was never faced with programming deadlines.

> More satisfying by far, also.

Not so sure on that aspect. When employed as a programmer, there was
pride through accomplishment, through achieving compliance with the
system analysts' specifications or later when programming for myself,
there was the further satisfaction of system design.
Perhaps the main satisfaction for my essay writing was avoiding stress
by meeting a deadline or achieving a grade. But I am no Robertson Davies.

[Jonathan Harston]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 6:04:45 PM UTC, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed
> Cellphone Culture.

Maybe not quite. There's a scene in the second Motie book where
there's a meeting, which goes something like:
Blaine waited slightly impatently as people synchronsed their
pocket computers with the ship's systems, and waited for the
beeps and chirps to die down as people took their seats.

Exactly like today's always-on smart device culture.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <tv7i12$2gihk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:

This reminds me of a couple of things:

First, one of Asimov's F&SF essays, titled "What Truck?", published in
the mid-80s, was about the SF writers who could have foreseen space
travel but for one reason or another misunderstood the science.

Second, there was a book published in 1985 called THE 2025 REPORT,
shelved as non-fiction, which impressionable tween me read when it
landed on the new-books shelf in the public library. (I hesitate to
look up who wrote it because it was probably by someone dreadful.) It
was catalogued as nonfiction but it was written from the perspective
of someone in 2025 writing about the past forty years of their
timeline's history, and from what I recall it totally missed the
mark. The author was some flavor of techno-libertarian and was
certain that nation-states would have completely dissolved by then and
everyone would belong to the state of their choice without regard to
where they lived or what they did. (I can think of a few modern
writers with better thought out takes on this idea.)

Even among supposed contemporary experts, who correctly called the
miniaturization revolution or the extent to which it was driven by
industrial policy in a modernizing China?

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wol...@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

[Scott Lurndal]

wol...@bimajority.org (Garrett Wollman) writes:
>In article <tv7i12$2gihk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,
>Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
>>Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
>>what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
>>social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
>>you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>>
>>What would you write about?
>
>This reminds me of a couple of things:
>
>First, one of Asimov's F&SF essays, titled "What Truck?", published in
>the mid-80s, was about the SF writers who could have foreseen space
>travel but for one reason or another misunderstood the science.
>
>Second, there was a book published in 1985 called THE 2025 REPORT,

https://www.amazon.com/2025-Report-Concise-History-1975-2025/dp/0025790900

>shelved as non-fiction, which impressionable tween me read when it
>landed on the new-books shelf in the public library. (I hesitate to
>look up who wrote it because it was probably by someone dreadful.) It
>was catalogued as nonfiction but it was written from the perspective
>of someone in 2025 writing about the past forty years of their
>timeline's history, and from what I recall it totally missed the

>mark. The author was some flavor of techno-libertarian and was
>certain that nation-states would have completely dissolved by then and

According to reviews on the amazon link above, he predicted
the fall of the soviet union and he coined 'telecommuting'.

Will have to search out a copy.

[Gary R. Schmidt]

On 21/03/2023 00:06, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <21fb9ff0-da12-4de1...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>
>> Science Fiction did not predict the fall of the Soviet Union, so
>> the invasion of a westward looking Ukraine by an authoritarian
>> but non-communist Russia would be so daring as perhaps to be
>> difficult to sell.
>
> Well, not the peaceful fall, at any rate.
>
> George Turner's Beloved Sun has a crew of intrepid (and largely
> doomed) starfarers return from Barnard's Star to discover that
> in the years they were gone, WWIII and what followed rearranged
> the world significantly. As I recall, Russia abandoned communism
> but managed to preserve the unpleasantness.
>

Gentle correction, 'tis, "Beloved Son".

Cheers,
Gary B-)

[Titus G]

On 21/03/23 15:18, Garrett Wollman wrote:
snip

> mark. The author was some flavor of techno-libertarian and was
> certain that nation-states would have completely dissolved by then and
> everyone would belong to the state of their choice without regard to
> where they lived or what they did. (I can think of a few modern
> writers with better thought out takes on this idea.)

I don't think I have come across that societal possibility for people
and am interested. Would you please provide a title or two?
(If more than two, please rank them :-))

[James Nicoll]

In article <pmhnej-...@paranoia.mcleod-schmidt.id.au>,

Thank you.

[Don]

Garrett Wollman wrote:

Nr 63 "Die Mikro-Techniker" (The Microtechs), written in 1962, kick
starts Perry Perry Rhodan's sfnal miniaturization revolution as an
industrial policy of Die Dritte Mach (The Third Power) - coincidentally
located in the Gobi Desert. And the Microtechs continue to create micro-
Wunderwaffen in Nr 222 "Die Doppelgänger von Andromeda" (The Doppel-
gangers from Andromeda).
FWIW, the latter novella was finished by me yestereday. It's a clone
story, ergo "doppelganger."

[pete...@gmail.com]

The Gripping Hand was published in 1993. Cellphones had been
around for nearly a decade by then. The Apple Newton was announced
in 1992.

pt

[pete...@gmail.com]

Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age" for one.

pt

[James Nicoll]

In article <6a2bb979-5d80-4dca...@googlegroups.com>,

I seem to recall the original Mote had something a lot like tablets.

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 9:37:17 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <6a2bb979-5d80-4dca...@googlegroups.com>,
> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 9:17:17 PM UTC-4, Jonathan Harston wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 6:04:45 PM UTC, Ted Nolan
> ><tednolan> wrote:
> >> > Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed
> >> > Cellphone Culture.
> >> Maybe not quite. There's a scene in the second Motie book where
> >> there's a meeting, which goes something like:
> >> Blaine waited slightly impatently as people synchronsed their
> >> pocket computers with the ship's systems, and waited for the
> >> beeps and chirps to die down as people took their seats.
> >>
> >> Exactly like today's always-on smart device culture.
> >
> >The Gripping Hand was published in 1993. Cellphones had been
> >around for nearly a decade by then. The Apple Newton was announced
> >in 1992.
> I seem to recall the original Mote had something a lot like tablets.

So did 2001, a Space Odyssey. They at least functioned as TVs. When
I finally saw a restored 70mm print a few years ago, you could see that
they had IBM branding.

pt

[Robert Woodward]

In article <tvcbu8$bos$1...@reader2.panix.com>,

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> In article <6a2bb979-5d80-4dca...@googlegroups.com>,
> pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 9:17:17 PM UTC-4, Jonathan Harston wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 6:04:45 PM UTC, Ted Nolan
> ><tednolan> wrote:
> >> > Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed
> >> > Cellphone Culture.
> >> Maybe not quite. There's a scene in the second Motie book where
> >> there's a meeting, which goes something like:
> >> Blaine waited slightly impatently as people synchronsed their
> >> pocket computers with the ship's systems, and waited for the
> >> beeps and chirps to die down as people took their seats.
> >>
> >> Exactly like today's always-on smart device culture.
> >
> >The Gripping Hand was published in 1993. Cellphones had been
> >around for nearly a decade by then. The Apple Newton was announced
> >in 1992.
>
> I seem to recall the original Mote had something a lot like tablets.

_A Spaceship for a King_ (later expanded to _King David's Spaceship_),
written by Pournelle around the same time as _Mote in God's Eye_ and set
in the same period, had them too (acted like the Apple Newton in that
they recognized handwriting).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

[Lynn McGuire]

On 3/19/2023 2:11 PM, Don wrote:

> Ted Nolan wrote:
>> Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
>>> Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
>>> what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
>>> social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
>>> you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>>>
>>> What would you write about?
>>

>> Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed

>> Cellphone Culture. So that. Probably weave the Musk "Delos D. Harriman"
>> story in as the plot. That lets you bring in Space, Social Media, War,
>> Cars, & Politics. Hopefully since it's 1963, we don't get a 70s ending..
>
> Yes! Cellphone Culture changed the world as we knew it. Meanwhile the
> meta-verse fights for control of grandpa's websites...
>
> Danke,

Robert Heinlein talked about mobile phones in his 1948 book, "Space Cadet".

Lynn

[William Hyde]

On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:58:41 PM UTC-4, Titus G wrote:
> On 21/03/23 11:16, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:55:36 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <33ec72a1-9225-40fa...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> >>> Based on these and similar issues, I understand that there
> >>> are required courses in this, too, where perhaps students can find
> >>> relief from the stressful activity of getting a program to work by
> >>> writing essays on how all computer scientists should in fact refuse to
> >>> pursue activities not regarded as ethical by the ACM.
> >> (Hal Heydt)
> >> Thinking back to my college years, I'd've found writting essays
> >> much more stressful than writing and debugging programs.
> >
> > Absolutely.
> >
> I also agree but I was never faced with programming deadlines.
> > More satisfying by far, also.
> Not so sure on that aspect. When employed as a programmer, there was
> pride through accomplishment, through achieving compliance with the
> system analysts' specifications or later when programming for myself,
> there was the further satisfaction of system design.

I was lucky enough to be writing scientific programs for myself, or at least
for research I was conducting with others.

On my first Thanksgiving in Texas I filled the four day weekend writing
a predator-prey model. I added feature after feature to the simple
model I dreamed up Thursday afternoon, finally having everything
added and debugged Sunday. And it gave reasonable results.

I was working until five am most of the weekend, dropping by the
remains of the bonfire (an A&M tradition) on the way home and
chatting with the people camped there. The bonfire at this point
was a ten foot tall pile of ashes wreathed in blue flames. Looked
very good in the pre-dawn light.

I remember it as one of the more enjoyable weekends of my life.
I don't think I'd see it that way if I had tried to write an essay.

> Perhaps the main satisfaction for my essay writing was avoiding stress
> by meeting a deadline or achieving a grade. But I am no Robertson Davies.

I am similar to him only in having trouble with my furnace.

William Hyde

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <tvd12p$86p0$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sure, but a mobile phone is not a cellphone, and nobody in the book
spent their day hunched over one.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Chris Buckley]

If you want a very quirky, heavily political, very ambitious series, try
_Terra Ignota_ by Ada Palmer. It certainly covers the societal issues
in far more depth than Stephenson's book which was reasonably near future.
Palmer's series is set in the 2400's and the society is quite different.

I'm not sure whether to recommend it. I admire it greatly, but for
whatever reason have only read the first three books of the four book
quartet. I think too many ideas...

The author is a University of Chicago historian, and the some of the
politics are greatly influenced by the 18th century Age of Enlightenment.
Perhaps if I knew that era better, I would appreciate more of the
clashes between philosophies.

It was nominated for numerous awards without coming close to winning.

I'm also not sure whether to tell you to read the Wikipedia page
on it. It would have helped me understand what was going on a lot
sooner than I did, but that was intentional on the part of the author.
She definitely believes in just throwing you into the world.

Chris

[Titus G]

Prior to my reply to Garrett Wollman, I had the vague idea that
Stephenson had written something but looked up Snow Crash.
I have read Diamond Age but a long time ago. Both of these Stephenson
books were brilliant and I now intend to read them again. Thank you.

[Titus G]

On 22/03/23 11:31, Chris Buckley wrote:
> On 2023-03-21, pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 10:41:49 PM UTC-4, Titus G wrote:
>>> On 21/03/23 15:18, Garrett Wollman wrote:
>>> snip
>>>> mark. The author was some flavor of techno-libertarian and was
>>>> certain that nation-states would have completely dissolved by then and
>>>> everyone would belong to the state of their choice without regard to
>>>> where they lived or what they did. (I can think of a few modern
>>>> writers with better thought out takes on this idea.)
>>> I don't think I have come across that societal possibility for people
>>> and am interested. Would you please provide a title or two?
>>> (If more than two, please rank them :-))
>>
>> Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age" for one.
>>
>> pt
>
> If you want a very quirky, heavily political, very ambitious series, try
> _Terra Ignota_ by Ada Palmer. It certainly covers the societal issues
> in far more depth than Stephenson's book which was reasonably near future.
> Palmer's series is set in the 2400's and the society is quite different.
>
> I'm not sure whether to recommend it. I admire it greatly, but for
> whatever reason have only read the first three books of the four book
> quartet. I think too many ideas...

Although a bit apprehensive in regard to the size, (four books), I have
book 1, Too Like The Lightning and was immediately enchanted by the
first page, an introduction with publication permissions,
recommendations and ratings including such gems as:
Certified Nonproselytory By The Four-Hive Commission On Religion In
Literature.

I loved the style of the first paragraph of Chapter the FIRST and am
looking forward to reading more. Thank you.

[Titus G]

> On 22/03/23 11:31, Chris Buckley wrote:snip

>> If you want a very quirky, heavily political, very ambitious series, try

>> _Terra Ignota_ by Ada Palmer. snip

>> I'm not sure whether to recommend it. I admire it greatly, but for
>> whatever reason have only read the first three books of the four book
>> quartet. I think too many ideas...

Having read only 4 or 5 chapters of book 1, Too Like The Lightning, I
see what you mean. The "too many ideas" is making reading rather slow
because of the distractions and I am already aware that there will be
levels beyond my literary comprehension. But I am fascinated being a
fish out of water in an amazing environment with intense characters in a
stateless society with such precise social mores. I hope this
fascination lasts for me longer than it did for you.

snip>> The author is a University of Chicago historian, and the some of the

>> politics are greatly influenced by the 18th century Age of Enlightenment.
>> Perhaps if I knew that era better, I would appreciate more of the
>> clashes between philosophies.

I might have a brief excursion to Wikipedia to gain a better outline.

>> It was nominated for numerous awards without coming close to winning.
>>
>> I'm also not sure whether to tell you to read the Wikipedia page
>> on it. It would have helped me understand what was going on a lot
>> sooner than I did, but that was intentional on the part of the author.
>> She definitely believes in just throwing you into the world.
>>
>> Chris
>

After reading that, I chose to go in cold turkey. I enjoy the minor
epiphanies when something obscure is interpreted correctly. So far the
basic conflict appears to be clear. Her writing style, which I enjoy,
slows me down and she references much that is unknown to me as well as
that which is yet to be explained. e.g. "bash's" perhaps meaning home
later explained to be from a Japanese word a little more complex than
"home".
The Dedication is "to the first human who thought to hollow out a log to
make a boat and his or her successors" so when I encountered "the Nina,
the Pinta, Apollo XI, the Mukta", a web search disclosed that Mukta is
Sanskrit for set free or liberated from the binding suffering of
sentient life. Since the term is translated in past tense, some Sanskirt
scholars believe that it describes a freedom that which has already
happened, and we have to train the mind to release and find this freedom
from within. And in this book the "Mukta" is something from long in the
past like the Apollo program and although I do not yet know the story of
the physical Mukta which I assume will be a 'vessel' in this book, I can
anticipate an analogy to the sociological upheaval implied to "train the
mind to release and find this freedom from within". I am loving it but
as you said to begin with, "too many ideas". I am not an intellectual
with a grounding in ancient history and philosophy but am already sure
that I am going to enjoy it at a lesser level.
I have woffled on perhaps too much but wished to thank you again for the
time spent on your recommendation. Thank you.

[Titus G]

On 25/03/23 14:02, Titus G wrote:
>> On 22/03/23 11:31, Chris Buckley wrote:snip
>>> If you want a very quirky, heavily political, very ambitious series, try
>>> _Terra Ignota_ by Ada Palmer. snip
>>> I'm not sure whether to recommend it. I admire it greatly, but for
>>> whatever reason have only read the first three books of the four book
>>> quartet. I think too many ideas...
>
> Having read only 4 or 5 chapters of book 1, Too Like The Lightning, I
> see what you mean. The "too many ideas" is making reading rather slow
> because of the distractions and I am already aware that there will be
> levels beyond my literary comprehension. But I am fascinated being a
> fish out of water in an amazing environment with intense characters in a
> stateless society with such precise social mores. I hope this
> fascination lasts for me longer than it did for you.

Sometimes I wish I was as clever and articulate as Ada Palmer. Book one
was amazing for ideas and concepts especially the world building of
society with no nation states. But by book three, my growing familiarity
with characters and understanding of how society operated made the slow
moving plot and philosophies more important. I finished the third book a
few months ago but it was a bit of a struggle with little happening but
mainly interpretation of events from different perspectives so have been
hesitant to start book four which is close to 1,000 pages.

>
> snip>> The author is a University of Chicago historian, and the some of the
>>> politics are greatly influenced by the 18th century Age of Enlightenment.
>>> Perhaps if I knew that era better, I would appreciate more of the
>>> clashes between philosophies.

The influence of De Sade was too pronounced for my taste later in book
one making events and the associations of the Hive leaders less
plausible but that was the only negative.

snip

>>> I'm also not sure whether to tell you to read the Wikipedia page
>>> on it. It would have helped me understand what was going on a lot
>>> sooner than I did, but that was intentional on the part of the author.
>>> She definitely believes in just throwing you into the world.

Yes. I chose that way and am glad I did. I have read the Wikipedia page
since and found it a useful summary.
snip

[Charles Packer]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 16:26:52 +1200, Titus G wrote:

> On 25/03/23 14:02, Titus G wrote:
>>> On 22/03/23 11:31, Chris Buckley wrote:snip
>>>> If you want a very quirky, heavily political, very ambitious series,
>>>> try _Terra Ignota_ by Ada Palmer. snip I'm not sure whether to
>>>> recommend it. I admire it greatly, but for whatever reason have only
>>>> read the first three books of the four book quartet. I think too
>>>> many ideas...

As a child, Ada Palmer must have owned one hell of a dollhouse.

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 8:34:34 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:

> On 2023-03-19 11:50 a.m., Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> > Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> > what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> > social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> > you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
> >
> > What would you write about?

> Whatever it was, it would have to be heavy on the internet since that's
> the most science fictiony thing about actual 21st century life.
> Sometimes I think about how far you'd have to go back in time for a
> modern story to work as science fiction and it's usually pretty far back
> unless someone in the story has a strong online involvement

The earliest story I can think of that was clearly Internet inspired is "True
Names" by Vernor Vinge (1981). However, most non-computer people didn't
really become internet aware until 1993, which had both The September Which
Never Ended, and the introduction of the NCSA Mosaic browser, which
brought the WWW.

pt

[James Nicoll]

In article <6e71cd33-1087-427a...@googlegroups.com>,

ObA Logic Name Joe: A Logic Named Joe.

Poul Anderson came very close to imagining the World Wide Web in his
1971 The Byworlder... except for the detail all output was hardcopy.

ObThe Machine Stops: The Machine Stops.

[Don]

pete wrote:

Nobody expects the Vanish Imposition...

"We wanted flying cars, instead we got 140 characters"

"You promised me Mars, and all I got was Facebook"

[art...@yahoo.com]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 1:50:30 PM UTC-4, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
>
> What would you write about?

I would have written, Make Room, Make Room, but with Door Dash.

[Default User]

Last year I discussed a 1969 story - "Five Way Secret Agent" by Mack
Reynolds. Part of that discussed technology:


For a 1969 book, it had some definite hits. In the US, everyone not
only has but is required to have a "TV phone". That serves as a
combination phone, information device (although through the government
National Database), payment device, and identification. Not exactly a
modern smart-phone, but in the ballpark.

The government can also track people and use it as a listening device
as needed. While there aren't home computers as we know it, the larger
TV in the home came be used to access data and make orders for delivery
etc. And of course the government can spy through it. Those in the know
have shielded rooms with no TVs.



Brian

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:06:27 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> As I recall, Russia abandoned communism
> but managed to preserve the unpleasantness.

And that was prophetic, since that's exactly what happened!

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 8:36:30 PM UTC-6, Default User wrote:

> Last year I discussed a 1969 story - "Five Way Secret Agent" by Mack
> Reynolds. Part of that discussed technology:

> For a 1969 book, it had some definite hits. In the US, everyone not
> only has but is required to have a "TV phone". That serves as a
> combination phone, information device (although through the government
> National Database), payment device, and identification. Not exactly a
> modern smart-phone, but in the ballpark.

> The government can also track people and use it as a listening device
> as needed. While there aren't home computers as we know it, the larger
> TV in the home came be used to access data and make orders for delivery
> etc. And of course the government can spy through it. Those in the know
> have shielded rooms with no TVs.

Hmm. Sounds like Mack Reynolds was inspired by 1984, but just decided that
he would update the technology by making the telescreens portable.

John Savard

[Robert Woodward]

In article <7a6f3472-27f2-4679...@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:06:27?AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> > As I recall, Russia abandoned communism
> > but managed to preserve the unpleasantness.
>
> And that was prophetic, since that's exactly what happened!
>

But it wasn't that much of a stretch, since Russia had abandoned Tsarist
autocracy, but still preserved the unpleasantness.

[Default User]

Quadibloc wrote:

>On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 8:36:30 PM UTC-6, Default User wrote:
>
>> Last year I discussed a 1969 story - "Five Way Secret Agent" by
>>Mack Reynolds. Part of that discussed technology:

>Hmm. Sounds like Mack Reynolds was inspired by 1984, but just decided
>that he would update the technology by making the telescreens
>portable.

Well, 1984 was about a lot more than that. In general, things in
Reynolds's America aren't too bad. It's democratic, at least at the
time, with a decent dole for those that can't or don't work (although
you lose the right to vote).

It's best not to leap to conclusions without reading the actual work.
Of course, some people here seem able to leap to erroneous conclusions
even AFTER reading the work.


Brian

[Default User]

Robert Woodward wrote:

>In article <7a6f3472-27f2-4679...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:06:27?AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
>> > As I recall, Russia abandoned communism
>> > but managed to preserve the unpleasantness.
>>
>> And that was prophetic, since that's exactly what happened!
>>
>
>But it wasn't that much of a stretch, since Russia had abandoned
>Tsarist autocracy, but still preserved the unpleasantness.

It's almost as if the Russians aren't happy unless the government is
throwing people in prison (or worse).


Brian

[Dimensional Traveler]

Well, patting ourselves on the back and leaping to conclusions are a
major part of our exercise regimen.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

[Hamish Laws]

How do incarceration rates in Russia compare to the USA?

[The Horny Goat]

On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 03:36:45 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"
<defaul...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>But it wasn't that much of a stretch, since Russia had abandoned
>>Tsarist autocracy, but still preserved the unpleasantness.
>
>It's almost as if the Russians aren't happy unless the government is
>throwing people in prison (or worse).

But HAD Russia actually changed the autocracy or merely changed the
color from white to red? (And added 5 pointed stars to every
official's badge)

[pete...@gmail.com]

Russian moral culture diverged from that of the West due to centuries of
Mongol overlordship. It never recovered.

Pt

[Chris Buckley]

Thanks for the update! It sounds like your experience so far is much
the same as mine. I enjoyed the world-building and conflicts set up
in the first two books (though there were too many of them), but the
third book didn't sharpen those conflicts. It instead added still
more philosophical facets and things just got "muddied up" for me -
there were too many character actions and plot items I just couldn't
predict.

Oh well, I don't think I'm going to venture reading the 4th book, especially
since I would probably have to re-read the 3rd book by now.

Chris

[David E. Siegel]

On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 2:04:45 PM UTC-4, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <tv7i12$2gihk$1...@newsreader4.netcologne.de>,

> Thomas Koenig <tko...@netcologne.de> wrote:
> >Suppose you're an aspiring SF writer 60 years ago, 1963.
> >Through some *hand wave*, you get access to information about
> >what has happened in the meantime - technology, major events,
> >social changes etc, Internet, social media, you name it, and
> >you decide to write a major novel set in 2023.
> >
> >What would you write about?

> Well, I said a while ago that everybody prognosticating missed
> Cellphone Culture. So that. Probably weave the Musk "Delos D. Harriman"
> story in as the plot. That lets you bring in Space, Social Media, War,
> Cars, & Politics. Hopefully since it's 1963, we don't get a 70s ending..

> --
> columbiaclosings.com
> What's not in Columbia anymore..

Christopher Anvil "Handhelds" collected in _RX for Cgaos_ from Baen, fairly recently.

[David E. Siegel]

On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:40:45 AM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2023-03-19 11:31 p.m., Andrew McDowell wrote:

...

> Not every technological advance has narrative value. mRNA vaccines are
> actually pretty dull stuff. The COVID outbreak itself has narrative
> potential as a backdrop. You could do a story along the lines of a
> person confined for months by quarantining, turning to online gaming and
> and ending up addicted to virtual experience while afraid to leave their
> house.

Poul Anderson "The Saturn Game".

[Titus G]

On 30/07/23 14:12, Chris Buckley wrote:
snip

> Thanks for the update! It sounds like your experience so far is much
> the same as mine. I enjoyed the world-building and conflicts set up
> in the first two books (though there were too many of them), but the
> third book didn't sharpen those conflicts. It instead added still
> more philosophical facets and things just got "muddied up" for me -
> there were too many character actions and plot items I just couldn't
> predict.
>
> Oh well, I don't think I'm going to venture reading the 4th book, especially
> since I would probably have to re-read the 3rd book by now.

Book 4, "Perhaps the Stars", had far too much detail about how the war
in the stateless society began and progressed which failed to retain my
attention. I managed 200 pages of 800+ interrupted by an Elmore Leonard
western and a Ruth Rendell weird criminal mind mystery which were far
more fun. Today I decided not to continue so skimmed chapter headings
and read parts of the final chapter. The first book was brilliant, a
solid 4 stars and book 2 was also rewarding. Perhaps if I was more
interested in the mechanics of politics I would have persevered. Or
maybe my brain is too small.

Minor spoiler follows.






Spoiler space.








Although the plot was secondary to the operation of a stateless society,
you may be interested to know that MASON decreed that Utopia would be
banished from Mars in 200 years time, 2654 when it would be fully
developed, to seek their fortune in other solar systems to prevent the
next anticipated war between Utopia on Mars and the other hives on Earth.