Titan stories
Nicholas Whyte
Roger Zelazny's short short story "The Bands of Titan"
Kurt Vonnegut's _The Sirens of Titan_
Arthur C Clarke's underrated _Imperial Earth_
Greg Benford and Gordon Eklund's over-rated _If The Stars Are Gods_
John Varley's eponymous trilogy
Those I haven't read:
Stephen Baxter, _Titan_
Philip K Dick, _The Game Players of Titan_
Edmond Hamilton, _[Captain Future and] The Harpers of Titan_
James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
Alan E Nourse, _Trouble on Titan_
Ben Bova, _As on a Darkling Plain_
Manley Wade Wellman, _Sojarr of Titan
Also of course there's the infamous film _Saturn 3_, with screenplay
by Martin Amis of all people, starring Kirk Douglas, Harvey Keitel and
Farrah Fawcett.
Any I've missed?
Nicholas
lubarsky
"Nicholas Whyte" <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:84ad212b.05011...@posting.google.com...
> Stephen Baxter, _Titan_
> Philip K Dick, _The Game Players of Titan_
> Edmond Hamilton, _[Captain Future and] The Harpers of Titan_
> James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
> Alan E Nourse, _Trouble on Titan_
> Ben Bova, _As on a Darkling Plain_
> Manley Wade Wellman, _Sojarr of Titan
>
> Also of course there's the infamous film _Saturn 3_, with screenplay
> by Martin Amis of all people, starring Kirk Douglas, Harvey Keitel and
> Farrah Fawcett.
About Baxter's "Titan".
I read something on this group some years back that fit
my reactions to this book perfectly: "made me feel like I wanted to floss my
neurons".
WEL
Nicholas Whyte
Whyte) wrote:
Adding to my own list:
James Patrick Hogan, _The Immortality Option_
Hal Clement, _Half Life_
Michael Swanwick, "Slow Life"
Film:
_Creature_, directed by William Malone, 1985
Computer games:
Hardwar
Mines of Titan
Nicholas
Mark Blunden
> "Nicholas Whyte" <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:84ad212b.05011...@posting.google.com...
>> Stephen Baxter, _Titan_
>> Philip K Dick, _The Game Players of Titan_
>> Edmond Hamilton, _[Captain Future and] The Harpers of Titan_
>> James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
>> Alan E Nourse, _Trouble on Titan_
>> Ben Bova, _As on a Darkling Plain_
>> Manley Wade Wellman, _Sojarr of Titan
>>
>> Also of course there's the infamous film _Saturn 3_, with screenplay
>> by Martin Amis of all people, starring Kirk Douglas, Harvey Keitel
>> and Farrah Fawcett.
Is it infamous? I recall being utterly freaked out by it as a kid, and quite
enjoying it when I rewatched it around... hmm... five or so years ago.
> About Baxter's "Titan".
>
> I read something on this group some years back that fit
> my reactions to this book perfectly: "made me feel like I wanted to
> floss my neurons".
Yes, that sums up my reaction too. Until then, I was rather liking Baxter's
stories, but I haven't read anything of his since.
--
Mark.
Dan Tilque
> Those I've read:
>
> Roger Zelazny's short short story "The Bands of Titan"
> Kurt Vonnegut's _The Sirens of Titan_
> Arthur C Clarke's underrated _Imperial Earth_
> Greg Benford and Gordon Eklund's over-rated _If The Stars Are
> Gods_ John Varley's eponymous trilogy
>
> Those I haven't read:
>
> Stephen Baxter, _Titan_
> Philip K Dick, _The Game Players of Titan_
> Edmond Hamilton, _[Captain Future and] The Harpers of Titan_
> James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
> Alan E Nourse, _Trouble on Titan_
> Ben Bova, _As on a Darkling Plain_
> Manley Wade Wellman, _Sojarr of Titan
>
> Any I've missed?
Karl Hansen, _War Games_ -- lots of sex, drugs and
rock-n-roll...
Googling on the book, I find that some sites claim the book was
written by Karl Hansen and Kenneth Paul Rogers, but my copy only
has Hansen.
--
Dan Tilque
Steve Harclerode
- Steve
"Nicholas Whyte" <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:84ad212b.05011...@posting.google.com...
art...@yahoo.com
chance, but the movie ends before he gets there.
Mike Schilling
in which books.
how...@brazee.net
_Clash of the Titans_
Or we could move to the NFL.
Steve Simmons
> Those I've read:
. . .
> Those I haven't read:
. . .
> Any I've missed?
There's Samuel R. Delany's "Titan" or "Trouble on Titan", depending on
which version you find. If you like Delany you'll like it; if you don't,
you won't.
--
"There's a lot of my personality in my characters. I think that's why
smart-asses are over-represented."
Christopher Moore, in http://www.chrismoore.com/world_domination.htm
Mike Schilling
"Steve Simmons" <s...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> wrote in message
news:slrncumfs...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us...
> Nicholas <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote on 01/16/05 at 17:28:
>
>> Those I've read:
> . . .
>> Those I haven't read:
> . . .
>> Any I've missed?
>
> There's Samuel R. Delany's "Titan" or "Trouble on Titan", depending on
> which version you find. If you like Delany you'll like it; if you don't,
> you won't.
Except that it's "Triton".
Andrew Maizels
> _Passage_ by Connie WIllis
Blink blink. Pause. Aaargh!
Andrew
--
Visit mu.nu! It's crunchy and full of goodness!
http://mu.nu/
Anthony Cerrato
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote in
message
news:IKHGd.11229$wZ2....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
I just was making the same mistake for awhile, it was
driving me nuts (cause I knew it wasn't the same as
described for the Nourse book,) 'till I checked Amazon for
"Triton." Can the Nourse, "Titan" book possible be as good
as Delany's "Trouble on Triton"? The latter was
excellent--still remember it after, I dunno, is it 25 or
more years? ...tonyC
Alan Poulter
"Mark Blunden" <m.blundenAT...@address.invalid> wrote in
news:34vqh1F...@individual.net:
> lubarsky wrote:
>> "Nicholas Whyte" <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:84ad212b.05011...@posting.google.com...
>>> Stephen Baxter, _Titan_
>>> Philip K Dick, _The Game Players of Titan_
>>> Edmond Hamilton, _[Captain Future and] The Harpers of Titan_
>>> James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
>>> Alan E Nourse, _Trouble on Titan_
>>> Ben Bova, _As on a Darkling Plain_
>>> Manley Wade Wellman, _Sojarr of Titan
>>>>
>> About Baxter's "Titan".
>>
>> I read something on this group some years back that fit
>> my reactions to this book perfectly: "made me feel like I wanted to
>> floss my neurons".
>
> Yes, that sums up my reaction too. Until then, I was rather liking
> Baxter's stories, but I haven't read anything of his since.
Just to put in a contrary view, Titan has a certain something
which you either like or hate. Digging through past comments
things which characterise that 'certain something' are:
(1) the political trends used as a background for the main story
(2) the nature/conduct of the mission/crew
(3) the ending
If you ignore (1) then what is left is an alternative view of the
utility of manned spaceflight.
Alan Poulter
al...@poulter.demon.co.uk
Ron Henry
> which version you find. If you like Delany you'll like it; if you
don't,
> you won't.
That's actually "Trouble on Triton" (aka just "Triton") -- easy to
confuse given the Alan Nourse title. So we'll have to wait until NASA
sends an orbiter to the Neptune system to discuss that work. <smirk>
Ron Henry
Ron Henry
news:6oMGd.14684$My1....@fe12.lga...
> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote
> > "Steve Simmons" <s...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> wrote in message
> > news:slrncumfs...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us...
> > > Nicholas <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote on 01/16/05 at
> 17:28:
> > >
> > >> Those I've read:
> > > . . .
> > >> Those I haven't read:
> > > . . .
> > >> Any I've missed?
> > >
> > > There's Samuel R. Delany's "Titan" or "Trouble on
> Titan", depending on
> > > which version you find. If you like Delany you'll like
> it; if you don't,
> > > you won't.
> > Except that it's "Triton".
>
> I just was making the same mistake for awhile, it was
> driving me nuts (cause I knew it wasn't the same as
> described for the Nourse book,) 'till I checked Amazon for
> "Triton." Can the Nourse, "Titan" book possible be as good
> as Delany's "Trouble on Triton"? The latter was
> excellent--still remember it after, I dunno, is it 25 or
> more years? ...tonyC
Well... The Nourse was published in the mid-50s, before much of anything
was known about Titan. I remember almost nothing about it except that
the science was pretty outdated when I read it (70s) and its characters
fairly Golden Age-y.
Didn't someone review it just a couple days ago on this newsgroup?
In any case, it's safe to say it's a _very_ different book from the
Delany novel.
Ron Henry
James Nicoll
Me.
>In any case, it's safe to say it's a _very_ different book from the
>Delany novel.
>
My brain hurts trying to imagine one of them writing the other's
books.
--
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/
http://www.marryanamerican.ca
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
David E. Siegel
Nicholas Whyte wrote:
> Those I've read:
>
> Roger Zelazny's short short story "The Bands of Titan"
> Kurt Vonnegut's _The Sirens of Titan_
> Arthur C Clarke's underrated _Imperial Earth_
> Greg Benford and Gordon Eklund's over-rated _If The Stars Are Gods_
> John Varley's eponymous trilogy
>
> Those I haven't read:
>
> Stephen Baxter, _Titan_
> Philip K Dick, _The Game Players of Titan_
> Edmond Hamilton, _[Captain Future and] The Harpers of Titan_
> James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
IIRC This is NOT set on Triton, nor in our solar system. But it has
beens everal years since I read it.
> Alan E Nourse, _Trouble on Titan_
> Ben Bova, _As on a Darkling Plain_
> Manley Wade Wellman, _Sojarr of Titan
>
> Also of course there's the infamous film _Saturn 3_, with screenplay
> by Martin Amis of all people, starring Kirk Douglas, Harvey Keitel
and
> Farrah Fawcett.
>
> Any I've missed?
>
> Nicholas
IIRC, the first section of Blish's _The Seedling Stars_ ends on Triton.
I think it was at least mentioned in Niven's _World of Ptavvs_. and i
belive that it features in a Clarke short story, IIRC the title was
"Saturn Rising" and it was included in _Tales of ten worlds_. and what
about _Lucky Starr and the Rings of Saturn_?
-DES
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu
> Nicholas <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote on 01/16/05 at 17:28:
>
> > Those I've read:
> . . .
> > Those I haven't read:
> . . .
> > Any I've missed?
>
> There's Samuel R. Delany's "Titan" or "Trouble on Titan", depending on
> which version you find. If you like Delany you'll like it; if you don't,
> you won't.
I'm assuming you mean "Triton".
There's always an exception. For me Triton seems to mark
a division in Delaney's work. I like everything written
before that, like no fiction barring a few short stories
written after(1). Triton itself I've twice tried to read
without getting halfway into it. I did get significantly
farther the second time. It's not that I hate the book,
or even actively dislike it (as I did, for example, the
only Neveryon novel I read). I found it more amusing the
second time around. Third time lucky, maybe, but that
won't be for quite a while.
(1) ISTR, anyway.
William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University
Christian Weisgerber
> > James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
>
> IIRC This is NOT set on Triton, nor in our solar system. But it has
> beens everal years since I read it.
*Picks up book, leafs through it*
It's Titan, alright.
> IIRC, the first section of Blish's _The Seedling Stars_ ends on Triton.
No, it's set on Ganymede and I can't find any mention of Titan.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
John M. Gamble
Nicholas Whyte <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Those I've read:
>
>Roger Zelazny's short short story "The Bands of Titan"
>Kurt Vonnegut's _The Sirens of Titan_
>Arthur C Clarke's underrated _Imperial Earth_
>Greg Benford and Gordon Eklund's over-rated _If The Stars Are Gods_
>John Varley's eponymous trilogy
>
>Those I haven't read:
>
>Stephen Baxter, _Titan_
>Philip K Dick, _The Game Players of Titan_
>Edmond Hamilton, _[Captain Future and] The Harpers of Titan_
>James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
>Alan E Nourse, _Trouble on Titan_
>Ben Bova, _As on a Darkling Plain_
>Manley Wade Wellman, _Sojarr of Titan
>
Joan Vinge's excellent short story "Eyes of Amber."
--
-john
February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.
Mike Schilling
<wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu> wrote in message
news:yv7zr7kj...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu...
> There's always an exception. For me Triton seems to mark
> a division in Delaney's work. I like everything written
> before that, like no fiction barring a few short stories
> written after(1). Triton itself I've twice tried to read
> without getting halfway into it. I did get significantly
> farther the second time. It's not that I hate the book,
> or even actively dislike it (as I did, for example, the
> only Neveryon novel I read).
There is only one Neveryon novel: Neveryona. The rest is short stories. I
highly recommend the first volume of stories (Tales of Neveryona): they're
intelligent, sly, clever, and even well-plotted with sympathetic characters.
Oh, and not yet obsessed with portraying gay S&M.
aRJay
--
aRJay
"In this great and creatorless universe, where so much beautiful has
come to be out of the chance interactions of the basic properties of
matter, it seems so important that we love one another."
- Lucy Kemnitzer
Mark Blunden
There's that James Cameron movie too, isn't there?
--
Mark.
Carl Dershem
news:84ad212b.05011...@posting.google.com:
"Clash of the Titans"?
<R&DFC>
cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
Keith F. Lynch
>> James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
> IIRC This is NOT set on Triton, nor in our solar system. But it has
> beens everal years since I read it.
It *is* set on Titan (not Triton). I just re-read it, and its sequel
_The Immortality Option_ (also set on Titan), in anticipation of the
Huygens landing. Both novels involve a machine civilization that's
evolved from an unmanned (unaliened?) exploration and mining ship
sent by a civilization in another solar system a million years ago.
In the backstory of these novels, the first, very shortlived, Titan
lander was European, in the early 21st century, and was accompanied
by a long-lived orbiter. Sound familiar?
--
Keith F. Lynch - http://keithlynch.net/
Please see http://keithlynch.net/email.html before emailing me.
David E. Siegel
Keith F. Lynch wrote:
> David E. Siegel <sie...@acm.org> wrote:
> > Nicholas Whyte wrote:
> >> James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
>
> > IIRC This is NOT set on Triton, nor in our solar system. But it
has
> > beens everal years since I read it.
>
> It *is* set on Titan (not Triton). I just re-read it, and its sequel
> _The Immortality Option_ (also set on Titan), in anticipation of the
> Huygens landing. Both novels involve a machine civilization that's
> evolved from an unmanned (unaliened?) exploration and mining ship
> sent by a civilization in another solar system a million years ago.
>
> In the backstory of these novels, the first, very shortlived, Titan
> lander was European, in the early 21st century, and was accompanied
> by a long-lived orbiter. Sound familiar?
I recall the machine civ and its evolution from an alien probe --
soemhow I had it in my head that this occured on a planet of anotehr
star. I must have mis-remembered.
-DES
Anthony Cerrato
"Ron Henry" <ron....@blahblahblah.gmail.com> wrote in
message news:csgfu1$rfo$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu...
Good to know, maybe I'll read it. I recall thinking, when I
read "Trouble on Triton" that, damn this book has some
really original ideas and an engaging style.
...tonyC
Anthony Cerrato
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:csgg7c$t6c$1...@panix1.panix.com...
> In article <csgfu1$rfo$1...@news01.cit.cornell.edu>,
> Ron Henry <ron....@blahblahblah.gmail.com> wrote:
> >"Anthony Cerrato" <tcer...@optonline.net> wrote in
message
> >news:6oMGd.14684$My1....@fe12.lga...
> >> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >> > "Steve Simmons" <s...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> wrote in
message
> >> > news:slrncumfs...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us...
> >> > > Nicholas <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote on
01/16/05 at
> >> 17:28:
..snip..
> >Well... The Nourse was published in the mid-50s, before
much of anything
> >was known about Titan. I remember almost nothing about
it except that
> >the science was pretty outdated when I read it (70s) and
its characters
> >fairly Golden Age-y.
> >
> >Didn't someone review it just a couple days ago on this
newsgroup?
>
> Me.
>
> >In any case, it's safe to say it's a _very_ different
book from the
> >Delany novel.
> >
> My brain hurts trying to imagine one of them writing the
other's
> books.
Yeah, I would think so. :) I seriously doubt it could be
anywhere
as good as the Triton book, but I will hafta check for your
review of the Titan one. ...tonyC
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
Nicholas Whyte <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Any I've missed?
It wasn't *set* there, but IIRC the thingies in Heinlein's
_The Puppet Masters_ came from there.
--
Leif Kjønnøy, cunctator maximus. http://www.pvv.org/~leifmk
Peter Bruells
> In article <84ad212b.05011...@posting.google.com>,
> Nicholas Whyte <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Any I've missed?
>
> It wasn't *set* there, but IIRC the thingies in Heinlein's
> _The Puppet Masters_ came from there.
Yep. Though for some reason I used believe that they didn't really
come from there, but that Titan was just their latest stop. Strange.
Hm.. I know that Heinlein was not big on subtleties, but was it
established n the book, that the invasion was an act "all" slugs were
responsible for? Yes, I'd mount a military expedition against Titan,
too, but It'd be kinda unfair to nuke the whole planet, when the
invasion had been carried out by the Union of Superior Slugs, while
the United Slugs for Democray and Free Will could to zilch, because
they were busy defindingthemselves against their brethren.
Mark Blunden
You'd have preferred to leave them to just Slug it out?
<ducks and runs>
--
Mark.
David E. Siegel
Peter Bruells wrote:
> lei...@pvv.ntnu.no (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) writes:
>
> > In article <84ad212b.05011...@posting.google.com>,
> > Nicholas Whyte <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >Any I've missed?
> >
> > It wasn't *set* there, but IIRC the thingies in Heinlein's
> > _The Puppet Masters_ came from there.
>
> Yep. Though for some reason I used believe that they didn't really
> come from there, but that Titan was just their latest stop. Strange.
>
IIRC there was speculation among the good guys to that effect, with no
final answer being determined in the course of the book.
> Hm.. I know that Heinlein was not big on subtleties, but was it
> established n the book, that the invasion was an act "all" slugs were
> responsible for? Yes, I'd mount a military expedition against Titan,
> too, but It'd be kinda unfair to nuke the whole planet, when the
> invasion had been carried out by the Union of Superior Slugs, while
> the United Slugs for Democray and Free Will could to zilch, because
> they were busy definding themselves against their brethren.
He could have written it that way, but chose not to -- he chose to
portray the slugs as the embodiments of ultimate evil (tm) and since
each slug shares memories and identity freely with each other slug at
every chance, it is assumed (without proof) by the vp characters that
all slugs have identical motivations and natures.
-DES
sar...@supanet.com
Steve Harclerode wrote:
> Didn't _Floating Worlds_ (Cecilia Holland) have some scenes on Titan?
>
> - Steve
>
Titan is certainly a colonized world in 'Floating Worlds'
but I don't think any scenes in the book are actually set
on it. IMS Affairs on Titan are mentioned in passing but
thats all.
Andrew Criddle
Laura Burchard
where Earth got taken out by an asteroid (1) and the scattered remnants of
humanity included one or two on Titan. (2) The ones on Titan encountered a
cryogenic lifeform that turned out to be long-stranded lifeforms from
another solar system. I think. Possibly they developed there, but I think
they were stranded.
Laura
(1) As I recall, the story never quite satisfactorily explained how a
civilization that had spread several hundred humans across the solar
system with the ability to at least temporarily sustain themselves without
Earth could be so stupid as to blow up a asteroid heading for earth
instead of diverting it, and then be surprised when the remnants entrain
and continue on course. While it's implied that the project was secret to
some extent, by definition rocket scientists had to be involved in
designing it, and they aren't that stupid even if the politicians might
be.
(2) Despite that and some other improbabilities, the story was quite
moving; one detail that stuck in the mind was the protagonist brewing tea
and then carefully drying and putting away the much used teabag.
--
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
Del Cotter
David E. Siegel <sie...@acm.org> said:
>Peter Bruells wrote:
>> Hm.. I know that Heinlein was not big on subtleties, but was it
>> established n the book, that the invasion was an act "all" slugs were
>> responsible for? Yes, I'd mount a military expedition against Titan,
>> too, but It'd be kinda unfair to nuke the whole planet, when the
>> invasion had been carried out by the Union of Superior Slugs, while
>> the United Slugs for Democray and Free Will could to zilch, because
>> they were busy definding themselves against their brethren.
>
>He could have written it that way, but chose not to -- he chose to
>portray the slugs as the embodiments of ultimate evil (tm) and since
>each slug shares memories and identity freely with each other slug at
>every chance, it is assumed (without proof) by the vp characters that
>all slugs have identical motivations and natures.
He was kinda fond of that: Slugs and, in _Starship Troopers_, Bugs.
Where it got disturbing is in stories like _Fifth Column_, where the
monolithic "other race of alien beings whose inner nature you don't have
to worry about, just confirm the outer appearance, then pull the trigger
on the flame thrower" are gooks. Slant-eyed, yellow-skinned humans.
--
Del Cotter
Thanks to the recent increase in UBE, I will soon be ignoring email
sent to d...@branta.demon.co.uk. Please send your email to del2 instead.
Peter Bruells
Ah, like his Chinese, then.
J.B. Moreno
> David E. Siegel <sie...@acm.org> said:
>
-snip-
> >He could have written it that way, but chose not to -- he chose to
> >portray the slugs as the embodiments of ultimate evil (tm) and since
> >each slug shares memories and identity freely with each other slug at
> >every chance, it is assumed (without proof) by the vp characters that
> >all slugs have identical motivations and natures.
>
> He was kinda fond of that: Slugs and, in _Starship Troopers_, Bugs.
>
> Where it got disturbing is in stories like _Fifth Column_, where the
> monolithic "other race of alien beings whose inner nature you don't have
> to worry about, just confirm the outer appearance, then pull the trigger
> on the flame thrower" are gooks. Slant-eyed, yellow-skinned humans.
Except they weren't and one of the "hero's" was one of the
aforementioned slant-eyed yellow-skinned humans.
--
JBM
"Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg
Michael Stemper
>Steve Simmons <s...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> writes:
>> There's Samuel R. Delany's "Titan" or "Trouble on Titan", depending on
>> which version you find. If you like Delany you'll like it; if you don't,
>> you won't.
>
> I'm assuming you mean "Triton".
Which does have an alternate title of _Trouble on Triton_, which I always
assumed was a riff on Nourse.
> There's always an exception. For me Triton seems to mark
> a division in Delaney's work. I like everything written
> before that, like no fiction barring a few short stories
> written after(1).
<isdb mode="chronological">
Interesting. That matches my taste in SRD pretty well. I've read just
about all of his pre-Triton work [1] and liked it. I tried a few of his
post-Triton works and stopped buying him. But, I never actually looked
at publication dates, that's just how it worked out.
> Triton itself I've twice tried to read
> without getting halfway into it.
I just re-read _Triton_ about two months ago, and still liked it. What
did you think of _Dhalgren_? Is that the exception to your liking of
pre-Triton Delany? I'm guessing so, because: a. Most people dislike
it b. It seems to have a lot in common with _Triton_.
[1] I've only missed _The Einstein Intersection_.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
If this is our corporate opinion, you will be billed for it.
Michael Stemper
>On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, in rec.arts.sf.written, David E. Siegel <sie...@acm.org> said:
{RAH and _The Puppet Masters_]
>>He could have written it that way, but chose not to -- he chose to
>>portray the slugs as the embodiments of ultimate evil (tm)
>He was kinda fond of that: Slugs and, in _Starship Troopers_, Bugs.
>
>Where it got disturbing is in stories like _Fifth Column_, where the
>monolithic "other race of alien beings whose inner nature you don't have
>to worry about, just confirm the outer appearance, then pull the trigger
>on the flame thrower" are gooks. Slant-eyed, yellow-skinned humans.
Wasn't that at Campbell's insistence, and toned down as much as he thought
that he could get away with?
Admittedly, he could have turned down the commission altogether.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This email is to be read by its intended recipient only. Any other party
reading is required by the EULA to send me $500.00.
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu
> In article <yv7zr7kj...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu>, wthyde writes:
> I just re-read _Triton_ about two months ago, and still liked it. What
> did you think of _Dhalgren_? Is that the exception to your liking of
> pre-Triton Delany? I'm guessing so, because: a. Most people dislike
> it b. It seems to have a lot in common with _Triton_.
>
I've read Dhalgren three times, at least, though not for
a decade or so. I don't know why I liked Dhalgren so much
(while disliking aspects of it) and dislike Triton. To me
they seem very different. D involves me, the characters in
T do not. Despite the weirdness the narrative streams of
the first novel it carried me along. Triton did not.
I noticed the thematic similarities the first time I tried
to read Triton. But I just didn't enjoy the book.
I'd like to know more, but "The motion of light in water"
only goes up to the mid 1960s, and spends, IMHO, far too
little time on his writing.
> [1] I've only missed _The Einstein Intersection_.
I recall liking it, but that was 30+ years ago.
Dave Goldman
wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
> I've read Dhalgren three times, at least, though not for
> a decade or so. I don't know why I liked Dhalgren so much
> (while disliking aspects of it) and dislike Triton. To me
> they seem very different. D involves me, the characters in
> T do not. Despite the weirdness the narrative streams of
> the first novel it carried me along. Triton did not.
A big difference for me:
The protagonist in _Dhalgren_ is basically likeable (YMMV), and usually
tries to do well by other people.
The protagonist in _Triton_ is petty and self-deluded, and usually does
not think about how his/her words or actions will make others feel.
I always had the feeling that Delany was making a critical point, or a
literary allusion, with the nature of the _Triton_ protagonist, but I seem
to not be getting it. (I think I read an essay of his that touched on
this, but I don't have time right now to try to dig it out.)
> I'd like to know more, but "The motion of light in water"
> only goes up to the mid 1960s, and spends, IMHO, far too
> little time on his writing.
Delany's published plenty of other essays and autobiographical material,
but I don't recall any addressing the writing (as opposed to the
apparently endless correcting of errata) of _Dhalgren_.
- Dave Goldman
Portland, OR
Mike Schilling
"Dave Goldman" <da...@remove-this-bit-ResearchSoftwareDesign.com> wrote in
message news:dave-19010...@ip130.132.du.eli.iinet.com...
>
> Delany's published plenty of other essays and autobiographical material,
> but I don't recall any addressing the writing (as opposed to the
> apparently endless correcting of errata) of _Dhalgren_.
Errata in Dhalgren? That reminds me of the reports of Calvin Coolidge's
death. [1]
1. The logical response to both is "How could they tell?"
aRJay
Stemper <mste...@siemens-emis.com> writes
>In article <BoPH3V9$Qm7BFwE$@branta.demon.co.uk>, Del Cotter writes:
>>On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, in rec.arts.sf.written, David E. Siegel
>><sie...@acm.org> said:
>
>{RAH and _The Puppet Masters_]
>
>>>He could have written it that way, but chose not to -- he chose to
>>>portray the slugs as the embodiments of ultimate evil (tm)
>
>>He was kinda fond of that: Slugs and, in _Starship Troopers_, Bugs.
>>
>>Where it got disturbing is in stories like _Fifth Column_, where the
>>monolithic "other race of alien beings whose inner nature you don't have
>>to worry about, just confirm the outer appearance, then pull the trigger
>>on the flame thrower" are gooks. Slant-eyed, yellow-skinned humans.
>
>Wasn't that at Campbell's insistence, and toned down as much as he thought
>that he could get away with?
>
>Admittedly, he could have turned down the commission altogether.
>
Campbell story that Heinlein was given to fix, what we got was as good
as he could get it without breaking it down to the individual letters.
If you look at the sort of tech that they manage to come up with this
makes a lot of sense, it seems much more out there than most of
Heinlein's stuff.
Default User
Yep. It's quite interesting to read All and Sixth Column in close
order. There were some things about Campbell's story that Heinlein
obviously didn't like. In particular, the "new government" consisting
of an oligarchy of scientists mascarading as gods.
Brian
Anthony Cerrato
"Dave Goldman"
<da...@remove-this-bit-ResearchSoftwareDesign.com> wrote in
message
news:dave-19010...@ip130.132.du.eli.iinet.com...
Exactly right, I had similar feelings--though I am
remembering the story through the haze of aging memory. My
recollection of "...Triton" is that the protagonist's
thoughts were startlingly
representative of what people were like in this future
universe--along with the sex stuff, and the economic and
military situation signaling impending war...it all seemed
very real to me at the time--and very different from today's
world. I guess the old term for this is "sensawunda," though
somewhat more refined by the later day standards than that
of the golden age of SF. Guess that's why I liked the book
so much. ...tonyC
Ron Henry
in message news:dave-19010...@ip130.132.du.eli.iinet.com...
> In article <yv7z3bwx...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu>,
> wth...@godzilla.acpub.duke.edu wrote:
>
> > I've read Dhalgren three times, at least, though not for
> > a decade or so. I don't know why I liked Dhalgren so much
> > (while disliking aspects of it) and dislike Triton. To me
> > they seem very different. D involves me, the characters in
> > T do not. Despite the weirdness the narrative streams of
> > the first novel it carried me along. Triton did not.
Well, people tend to try hard to identify with the main character of a
novel, and Bron Helstrom is pretty alienated, so identifying with him
can be alienating.
> A big difference for me:
>
> The protagonist in _Dhalgren_ is basically likeable (YMMV), and
usually
> tries to do well by other people.
>
> The protagonist in _Triton_ is petty and self-deluded, and usually
does
> not think about how his/her words or actions will make others feel.
>
> I always had the feeling that Delany was making a critical point, or a
> literary allusion, with the nature of the _Triton_ protagonist, but I
seem
> to not be getting it. (I think I read an essay of his that touched on
> this, but I don't have time right now to try to dig it out.)
I can't think of which essay that might specifically be, but some of the
best Delany essays not by Delany himself are in the collection Ash of
Stars (James Sallis, ed.)
But as far as the protagonists, thumbnail sketches: Dhalgren has a
bisexual drug-using minority youth gang leader with mental illness and
relationship problems he thinks are all in his head, in a mutated
version of the inner city -- who is very appealing to readers; Triton
has a white heterosexual high-tech career man with general social
adjustment problems and relationship problems he doesn't think are his
fault, on a mutated version of the frontier -- who is generally NOT
appealing to the reader. Sound like deliberate anti-types to me,
particularly when you consider how each of these types, superfically
described, might be seen by some hypothetical mainstream middle American
reader. So yeah, I'd say that Statements Are Being Made.
> > I'd like to know more, but "The motion of light in water"
> > only goes up to the mid 1960s, and spends, IMHO, far too
> > little time on his writing.
>
> Delany's published plenty of other essays and autobiographical
material,
> but I don't recall any addressing the writing (as opposed to the
> apparently endless correcting of errata) of _Dhalgren_.
There's some essay that contains impressionistic snippets that relate to
Dhalgren (sorry, I'm at work and it's been a decade or more since I
re-read it)... possibly "Shadows" in The Jewel-Hinged Jaw collection?
Anyhow, Delany describes writing Dhalgren to his then-wife Marilyn
Hacker as like being on the inside of balloon, trying to make a shape by
pulling it into form from the inside. (This is presumably a figurative
way of describing the weirdly simultaneously autobiographical and
fictional nature of the book.) Kind of a neat, odd image in any case.
Ron Henry
BPRAL22169
>I always had the feeling that Delany was making a critical point, or a
>literary allusion, with the nature of the _Triton_ protagonist, but I seem
>to not be getting it.
I have much the same experience as you -- read Dahlgren over and over again and
then let it go some time ago, but I read Triton just the once, when it first
came out.
My impression was that Delaney was exploring the necessary consequences of our
increasing social wealth combined with the forces (mass media?) that drive us
apart socially. The protagonist thought that resurfacing himself would make an
important connection with someone and never realized that he didn't have the
mentaI or emotional equipment to make a connection.
I now realize Delaney may have been making a fiction based on Baudrillard's
then-current work.
Bill
Peter D. Tillman
jga...@ripco.com (John M. Gamble) wrote:
> In article <84ad212b.05011...@posting.google.com>,
> Nicholas Whyte <nichola...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Those I've read:
> >
> >Roger Zelazny's short short story "The Bands of Titan"
> >Kurt Vonnegut's _The Sirens of Titan_
> >Arthur C Clarke's underrated _Imperial Earth_
> >Greg Benford and Gordon Eklund's over-rated _If The Stars Are Gods_
> >John Varley's eponymous trilogy
> >
> >Those I haven't read:
> >
> >Stephen Baxter, _Titan_
> >Philip K Dick, _The Game Players of Titan_
> >Edmond Hamilton, _[Captain Future and] The Harpers of Titan_
> >James Patrick Hogan, _Code of the Lifemaker_
> >Alan E Nourse, _Trouble on Titan_
> >Ben Bova, _As on a Darkling Plain_
> >Manley Wade Wellman, _Sojarr of Titan
> >
>
> Joan Vinge's excellent short story "Eyes of Amber."
Michael Swanwick's fine "Slow Life", which was a Hugo winner.
Cheers -- Pete Tillman
Dave Hansen
<ron....@blahblahblah.gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>But as far as the protagonists, thumbnail sketches: Dhalgren has a
>bisexual drug-using minority youth gang leader with mental illness and
>relationship problems he thinks are all in his head, in a mutated
>version of the inner city -- who is very appealing to readers; Triton
I've not read Triton, so I won't comment on that.
But I, for one, did not find the protagonist of Dhalgren very
appealing. In fact, I found him (and his "adventures") to be tedious
and boring, and the entire book depressing, pointless, and futile. A
waste of paper, ink, and time. I suspect Delany was not a very happy
person at the time he wrote this book. If Triton is a mirror work, I
won't be reading it any time soon. There're just too many _good_
books on the TBR pile.
But maybe that's just me. Perhaps Tina would like it.
FWIW, the only other Delany novels I've read were _Nova_ and _They Fly
at Çiron_. I enjoyed the former greatly, but thought the latter
needed more "there" there. And I'd re-read either (or both) of those
several times rather than subject myself to another try at Dhalgren.
Regards,
-=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.
Dave Loewe, Jr.
>On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:45:56 -0500, "Ron Henry"
><ron....@blahblahblah.gmail.com> wrote:
>
>[...]
>>But as far as the protagonists, thumbnail sketches: Dhalgren has a
>>bisexual drug-using minority youth gang leader with mental illness and
>>relationship problems he thinks are all in his head, in a mutated
>>version of the inner city -- who is very appealing to readers; Triton
>
>I've not read Triton, so I won't comment on that.
>
>But I, for one, did not find the protagonist of Dhalgren very
>appealing. In fact, I found him (and his "adventures") to be tedious
>and boring, and the entire book depressing, pointless, and futile. A
>waste of paper, ink, and time.
Indeed...
Dhalgren is perhaps the single most disappointing book I have ever had the
displeasure of reading. And is, without a doubt, the single WORST book with
aspirations of being anything other than utter trash, I have ever read.
And, before you Dhalgren apologists start in - I read the whole damned
thing.
>I suspect Delany was not a very happy
>person at the time he wrote this book. If Triton is a mirror work, I
>won't be reading it any time soon. There're just too many _good_
>books on the TBR pile.
>
>But maybe that's just me. Perhaps Tina would like it.
>
>FWIW, the only other Delany novels I've read were _Nova_ and _They Fly
>at Çiron_. I enjoyed the former greatly, but thought the latter
>needed more "there" there. And I'd re-read either (or both) of those
>several times rather than subject myself to another try at Dhalgren.
--
"You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas."
Eric Woolfson and Alan Parsons
Dave Goldman
<ron....@blahblahblah.gmail.com> wrote:
> "Dave Goldman" <da...@remove-this-bit-ResearchSoftwareDesign.com> wrote
> in message news:dave-19010...@ip130.132.du.eli.iinet.com...
>
> > I always had the feeling that Delany was making a critical point, or a
> > literary allusion, with the nature of the _Triton_ protagonist, but I
> seem
> > to not be getting it. (I think I read an essay of his that touched on
> > this, but I don't have time right now to try to dig it out.)
>
> I can't think of which essay that might specifically be, but some of the
> best Delany essays not by Delany himself are in the collection Ash of
> Stars (James Sallis, ed.)
Found the Delany essay in question. It's collected in his _The Straits of
Messina_, is titled "Trouble on Triton", and is written by his alter-ego
K. Leslie Steiner.
There are a few other such reviews by her collected here (including "Some
Remarks toward a Reading of _Dhalgren_"). In his Preface, he describes
this one as being written while he was still coming to terms with being
forced to give up his desired title in favor of simply _Triton_[*], and
coming from "the desire to read a positive, intelligent review, perhaps in
a better fanzine, of a book called _Trouble on Triton_ -- _my_ book called
_Trouble on Triton_."
The review makes more than a just one point, but I'll quote only this bit:
<quote>
What Delany has given us is a richly detailed treatment of the problem of
the liberal, in a society that has radically implemented what began as
liberal pipedreams for a better world. At first he finds himself happy
with the benefits; then he finds he cannot deal with the contingent
responsibilities; he tries to retreat to the conservative, but he cannot
tolerate the imprisoning strictures there; and purely personal solutions
leave him a life too thin and stripped of human texture to bear for long
without establishing oneself so far down the beach of eccentricity that
the tides of madness begin to suck at one's toes, ankles, knees...
</quote>
----------------
[*] Here's something from the Preface regarding the novel and its intended
title:
<quote>
I thought of it as a far-future comedy of manners, and I was fond of its
name. [mention here of various other SF tales with names identical to, or
reminiscent of, _Trouble on Triton_] -- all of which were resonances I was
pleased with, since one of the protagonist's problems is that he lives his
life by certain cliches he has not developed the ability to question or
deal with historically."
</quote>