JORDAN: Sweet coverart
Joe Morris
>In article <1994Mar9.2...@cc.usu.edu> sl...@cc.usu.edu writes:
>>The art is really good. The pictures are interesting, just not adequate
>>representations of what's in the story. Of course, we all have our own ideas
>>of what the characters look like...
>I tend to agree, it's not that the art is bad per se, it's that after you read
>and know what's going on, you realize the covers don't match the inside of
>the book, and even more annoying IMHO, they aren't consistent from book
>to book. Rand has looked different on every cover !
Look at the bright side: at least the publishers haven't regressed to
the point that they did in the 1960s when far too many books had cover
"art" which was abstract in the extreme. Most of it looked like what
you would get from a mass of earthworms, covered with paint, and prepared
by being fed large doses of LSD. The one which still makes me gag every
time I remember it was the pb edition of Day of the Triffids; anyone
else on the net recall that travesty?
Joe Morris / MITRE
Don Harlow
>
>Look at the bright side: at least the publishers haven't regressed to
>the point that they did in the 1960s when far too many books had cover
>"art" which was abstract in the extreme. Most of it looked like what
>you would get from a mass of earthworms, covered with paint, and prepared
>by being fed large doses of LSD. The one which still makes me gag every
>time I remember it was the pb edition of Day of the Triffids; anyone
>else on the net recall that travesty?
>
somebody won second prize in an art contest with a picture produced in
just the way you describe (except for the LSD, which was not mentioned).
The article admitted that the judges withdrew the prize when they discovered,
after awarding it, how the picture had been created ...
--
Don Harlow do...@netcom.com
Esperanto League for N.A. el...@netcom.com (800) 828-5944
Mi ellitig^as c^e l'tagig^o | I rise from bed at dawn
Kaj c^e la sunsubir' ripozas; | And go to rest at sundown;
Teron mi plugas por min nutri, | I plow the earth to feed myself,
Por trinki mi mem puton fosas; | To drink, I dig my own well;
Kion mi devas danki al la suvereno! | For what have I to thank the sovereign!
-- Early (2400 B.C.) Libertarian poem...
Aaron J Bergman
Aaron
Michael Major
has anyone figured out the military balance of the world?
There seem to be armies being built everywhere.
This is how I see the situation
(with help from Mr. Orzel, i.e. oil...@wam.umd.edu,
who corrected many of my numbers after I sent this via
email for his view- numbers in () are his, comments
in () are mine.).
1) The official Army of the Dragon
-----------------------------------
Conventional Forces
-------------------
400,000 Aiel - light infantry / special forces
(30-40,000) Tairens - mixture heavy infantry / light cavalry
20-30,000 Cairheinen - " " " / " "
(30-40,000)
(reduced numbers due to civil war)
10,000? Mayenens - standard army mixture
(on the march for linkup w/ rest of forces)
9,000 Saldaeans - light cavalry
5,000 Band of the Red Hand - 1/2 heavy inf. / 1/2 light cavalry
special missions force
(Note: from TFOH, it was stated
at 3,000 after several battles
and the resultant casualties.
After the Battle of Cair.
volunteers returned this unit
to full strength. Thus, the
5,000 estimate.)
(I'm assuming no Andorans since Rand just took the castle
so none of the Andoran army knows that he is tentatively in
charge. Also, I figure that he won't be doing much with
the army anyway because it is 1) infiltrated with corrupt
personnel, 2) widely scattered, and 3) Elaine would be ticked
off to return to find the nobles ticked off with her, while
her army is off doing Rand's bidding. :) )
Strategic Forces
----------------
1 male channeler - class AAA
2 female channelers - class A
(20-30) female channlers - class C (non-offensive)
Command Structure
-----------------
Chief Commander - Rand al'Thor
Chief Tactician,
Commander of BotRH,
Commander of "Wetlander" forces - Mat Cauthon
(forced into all these roles)
Tactical Advisors,
Aiel divisional
leaders - Aiel clan chiefs
Tactical Advisor,
Saldean commander - Davrim Bashere *
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
2) Army of the Exiled Aes Sedai (Blue Army)
---------------------------------------------
Conventional Forces
-------------------
5,000? mixed nationality - probably mostly infantry
(200) Warders - elite warrier force
Strategic Forces
----------------
1 female channeler - class AA
1 female channeler - class A
(200) female channelers - classes B - D
*Note: temporarily threw Elaine and Nyneave here
Command Structure
-----------------
Commander - Gareth Bryne *
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
3) Army of the Towered Aes Sedai (Red Army)
---------------------------------------------
Conventional Forces
-------------------
(2,000 Tar Valon Guards, etc.) - infantry
100 Warders - elite warrier force
lots of reds, so lower number
(O(100)) Younglings - equiv. to warders
(Chad, thanks for reminding me of these)
Strategic Forces
----------------
(200) female channelers - classes B - D
Command Structure
-----------------
unknown
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
4) Couladin's Former Aiel Army on the Run
------------------------------------------
Conventional Forces
-------------------
(30,000-40,000) Aiel - light infantry / special forces
(I had initially guessed 80K.
My quick assumption was 50% casualties
for both sides. This is
probably closer.)
Strategic Forces
----------------
none
Command Structure
-----------------
confused if existent at all
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
* Member of Who's Who of Randlandian Generals
========================================================
other opposing armies that I know exist but can't detail
Illianer Army - (30-40,000)
Whitecloak Army - (30-40,000)
Seanchan Army
The Shadow Army - (beyond count)
forces yet to (officially) choose a side
% Andorans
Shienarians [sp.]
+ the other nations
%-not as of end of TFOH
========================================================
I hope this provides some new discussion fodder
other than the X is also Y discussions.
Besides, all these armies should be making some very
interesting fight scenes in the next book.
(I apologize for any wrap around problems that may occur.
My editor exhibits unusual behaviour in this regard.)
In closing this lengthy post,
Michael Major
Karl Elvis MacRae
>The cover art is mediocre at best. I want Michael Whelan.
No, the art's horrible at best. Sweet's a hack.
While he seems to have a fair command of actually putting paint
to canvas (Or whatever medium he favors), his people are stunningly
bad. Every book he paints has this look like it's a silly satire.
I can't *imagine* how people can actually *pay* him for work that
bad.
But then, Gil Kane and Frank Robbins used to have a lot of fans
in the 70's when they were big comic artists, and they're almost
as bad, so.....
-Karl
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Karl Elvis MacRae Software Release Support Cisco Systems
bat...@cisco.com 415-688-8231 DoD#1999 1993 Vulcan Eighty-Eight
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Now, boys. Only kill what you can eat. And eat everything you kill."
-Ray Shea
HORNE_EUGENIA_LEE
Karl Elvis MacRae <km...@cisco.com> wrote:
>In article <2lob4q$2...@eis.calstate.edu> abe...@eis.calstate.edu
>(Aaron J Bergman) writes:
>>The cover art is mediocre at best. I want Michael Whelan.
>
> No, the art's horrible at best. Sweet's a hack.
It's a different style. (I did catch
two covers apparently using the same reference
photograph for a character's boots, but that
doesn't make Sweet a "hack".)
> While he seems to have a fair command of actually putting paint
> to canvas (Or whatever medium he favors), his people are stunningly
> bad. Every book he paints has this look like it's a silly satire.
Actually, Darrell K. Sweet's portrayal of people
is generally very good. I'm not going to explain
the part about portraits again. (Want to see some
really good people - Winterhalter, Van Dyck, Rembrandt,
Da Vinci, etc - but then again these folks got to
have nice large canvases to work with. They didn't
expect to have it all fit on a paperback cover AND
make room for unimportant things such as the title and
author's name.)
> I can't *imagine* how people can actually *pay* him for work that
> bad.
I know this may sound like heresy, but some people
wonder why anyone would buy Jordan's books.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reason goes only so far, and where reason stops, belief must begin"
- Prince Albert
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew C. Plotkin
HORNE_EUGENIA_LEE@cwis.i (1529)
> > No, the art's horrible at best. Sweet's a hack.
> It's a different style. (I did catch
> two covers apparently using the same reference
> photograph for a character's boots, but that
> doesn't make Sweet a "hack".)
No. What makes Sweet a hack is that every square inch of human (or
humanoid) flesh he's ever painted looks like clay, vaguely squished into
person-shape, and painted red. Without smoothing out the fingerprints.
This worked fine when he was painting Crunch the Ogre (of Xanth), who is
*supposed* to look like that. But for the other characters he tries to
draw, it's a disaster.
He can paint horses. He can paint trees and rocks and carriages and
castles and spaceships and planets and all the other icons that wind up
on SF/F covers. His scenes are usually things that really occurred in
the book, which is a talent that I usually appreciate. But if the scene
has people in it -- bleccho. I'm sorry. That's how I react.
What's even worse is that I like a lot of the books he's illustrated. So
I have to ignore my reaction upon seeing a Sweet cover, which causes the
pressure to build up inside me until it bursts out in a post like, well,
this one.
Oh, and I think he often overuses bright color. But this is a minor problem.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
Gary D. Duzan
Aaron J Bergman <abe...@eis.calstate.edu> wrote:
=>The cover art is mediocre at best. I want Michael Whelan.
=>
You'll get my vote on that one. I have a limited edition print
(signed, number 5/950) of his "Sentinels" on the wall behind me. He
really has a way of making unreal things realistic. I really want a
print of his "Passage: The Red Step", but they haven't come out with
one yet. :-(
Gary Duzan
Time Lord
Third Regeneration
Humble Practitioner of the Computer Arts
Aielman
--
ga...@dsh.org
_o_ ------------ _o_
[|o o|] First things first, but not necessarily in that order. [|o o|]
|_O_| Disclaimer: I have no idea what I am talking about. |_O_|
Karl Elvis MacRae
>>
>> No, the art's horrible at best. Sweet's a hack.
>
> It's a different style.
Than what? Good art?
> (I did catch
> two covers apparently using the same reference
> photograph for a character's boots, but that
> doesn't make Sweet a "hack".)
No, his lack of the barest grasp of the proportions of the
human body do.
Take a look at the cover of 'Eye of the World'; the woman's
body size is a total mis-match for her head, he torso is too
large for her legs, and she's a totally different size than
anyone else on the cover. It's pathetic. This is the worst
example I can think of, but I've never seen a really *good*
cover that he's done; just some that are less *bad*.
> Actually, Darrell K. Sweet's portrayal of people
> is generally very good.
Disagree. I've got dozens of covers by him; 1) They *never*
match the story within well, yet look like they're trying;
2) He body proportions all wrong; the guy's never looked at
an anatomy book. 3) his weapons don't make sense. 4) His
armour doesn't make sense.
I could go on if I wents and pulled a dozen books off of my shelves.
> I'm not going to explain
> the part about portraits again.
For those of us who missed it last time, oh, try, try.
> (Want to see some
> really good people - Winterhalter, Van Dyck, Rembrandt,
> Da Vinci
SO, only dead people are really good? I could list you a half
dozen artists in, say, comics right now, who are *far* better
artists than Sweet is.
>, etc - but then again these folks got to
> have nice large canvases to work with. They didn't
> expect to have it all fit on a paperback cover AND
> make room for unimportant things such as the title and
> author's name.)
Yeah, but look at really *good* work (Whelan, Rodney Mathews,
oh, I dunno, a lot of others) and see how well is *can* be done
in that same space.
>> I can't *imagine* how people can actually *pay* him for work that
>> bad.
>
> I know this may sound like heresy, but some people
> wonder why anyone would buy Jordan's books.
I don't much think that sounds like heresy. I see why
people buy them, but not why people think they're *good*;
but then, I've already posted that review under a conversation
about Tolkien.
-Karl
John Novak
>2) Army of the Exiled Aes Sedai (Blue Army)
>Conventional Forces
> 5,000? mixed nationality - probably mostly infantry
> (200) Warders - elite warrier force
You may want to adjust that a little bit-- aren't some of the
Sheinarans going to help Bryne train some heavy cavalry?
Otherwise, very nice.
--
John S. Novak, III
j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
j...@camelot.bradley.edu
Jessica Raine
he's obviously very talented; it just looks *wrong*.
Who are some of your favourite cover artists, everyone? How do you
judge a 'good' cover artist? Some of my favourites include Thomas Canty (who
does the Fairy Tale series), Michael Whelan, James Cauty (who did the Lord
of the Rings poster that everyone here at Brandeis seems to have on their
wall) and Trina Schart Hyman (who's been a favourite of mine since I started
reading 'Cricket' at the age of six).
I like cover artists who actually depict a scene that happens in the
book (as someone said, this is one of the few nice things Sweet does). I also
like artists who try to capture the flavour of the book--for Pamela Dean's
'Tam Lin', which takes place in a Midwestern college in the 1960s, Thomas
Canty draws red-headed, green-clothed Janet on the cover, and surrounds her
with an autumn landscape, and scatters autumn leaves over the back cover.
Before I even picked up the book, I knew what the tone was going to be.
I also like cover artists whose pictures are more than they seem.
Another of my favourites, Jody Lee, does the covers for Mercedes Lackey's
Heralds of Valdemar and Last Herald-Mage series. (Unfortunately, Darrell
Sweet does the covers for some of her other books...sigh.) Lee's paintings
are *beautiful*--especially the ones for the Last Herald-Mage books. In
her paintings are faces, coats-of-arms, demons--you just have to know where
to look. And she draws very lifelike people.
Jessica Raine | st92...@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
"I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me."--Kipling
HORNE_EUGENIA_LEE
Jessica Raine <st92...@pip.cc.brandeis.edu> wrote:
> Sweet's cover art is kind of irritating. It doesn't look 'hackish',
>he's obviously very talented; it just looks *wrong*.
[Editing due to systems limitations...]
Totally random comment about portrayals of people on the covers
of books:
Floyt and Fitzhugh (Brian Daley) said it best:
"You don't look anything like the covers of them
books about you." (Or something to that effect)
Several characters said this to the main duo; the
covers were by Sweet by the way.
Aside: I've got 5 books (historical novels) about Queen Victoria
and Prince Albert - on none of these do Victoria and Albert
look ANYTHING like the photographs of the authentic people.
(Indeed both of them have had major plastic surgery and one
cover is referred to as "the book with Albert's hair moussed
and looking like that Fabio guy" which is only slightly better
then the "book where Victoria looks like she's about to loose
her dress".)
Karl Elvis MacRae
> Sweet's cover art is kind of irritating. It doesn't look 'hackish',
>he's obviously very talented; it just looks *wrong*.
If you're talking about his technical painting ability, I suppose
you could be right. Even then, though, he strikes me as someone
who learned the technique in school; not an *artist*, more a
*technician*.
But it you look at his people, 'hack' is, if anything, kind.
he's simply *terrible* at people; he hasn't a *clue* about human
anatomy.
> Who are some of your favourite cover artists, everyone?
Michael Whelan.
Rodney Mathews (I don't know if he's done any US editions, but I've
got a UK edition or two with his covers, and I've seen a lot of
his album cover artwork; if you've never seen his work, look
for a book called 'mythopoecon' (Or something like that). Brilliant
work.)
I even like Frazzetta(sp?). His work looks cliched *now*, but it's
still got huge visceral impact. Plus he's a pretty damned good painter.
> How do you
>judge a 'good' cover artist?
1) Good technical artwork
2) the work is somehow 'representational' of the book it graces
or somehow enhances the book
3) accuracy (If you're going to show a scene from the book, GET THE
DAMNED DETAILS RIGHT!)
> I like cover artists who actually depict a scene that happens in the
>book (as someone said, this is one of the few nice things Sweet does).
Yes, but Sweet does it so badly that it becomes painful.
I like seeing something from the book, but in a lot of cases, it's
just annoying. If the details are wrong, it's *very* bad. And even
if they're basically correct, yet are vastly distant than the image
one has of the scene or the characters, it can be very annoying.
> I also
>like artists who try to capture the flavour of the book
This is what I'd rather see. I don't mind a sort of generic look;
for a book with a tropical setting, just a tropical scene is
acceptable. And I find it much less distracting, usually...
-Karl
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Karl Elvis MacRae Software Release Support Cisco Systems
bat...@cisco.com 415-688-8231 DoD#1999 1993 Vulcan Eighty-Eight
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"If you were *really* an idiot, you would've heard from Karl by now, so
it's probably not as bad as you think." -Ray Shea
sl...@cc.usu.edu
> In <2mqhtg$5...@cronkite.cisco.com> km...@cisco.com (Karl Elvis MacRae) writes:
> Sweet really messes up with the covers... Let's go through them one by
> one...
> The Eye of the World: So there are these folks on horseback. OK, the lady
> in the blue dress must be Moiraine.
The book says she was in grey...
> But why is she riding on a pony? Except
> that it can't be a pony,
(Right. Her horse is as big as Lan's.)
> etc. etc. OK, who is that huge guy on a huge horse?
> The guy in the plate mail
He " had donned a dull gray-green tunic of overlapping metal scales." (tEotW
p 107)... and he is a pretty huge guy...
> the guy with the beard... the guy with TWO
> swords... the guy without a cloak that changes colours... etc. Must be Lan.
> OK, so who is the Robin Hood fellow back there?
Which one? They all look like Robin Hood...Even the extra one.
Lan, Moiraine, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Thom, Rand, and the Mystery Man.
> At this point, your guess is
> as good as mine. And the Draghkar is pathetic.
I think the Draghkar is the most accurate thing on the cover...
>
> The Great Hunt: OK, there's Rand, there's Lanfear (LANFEAR??? She was
> supposed to be a babe!) and there's that Ogier fellow (OK, he looks quite
> good actually, I'd even say that he is closest to correct of all Sweet's
> characters...). Then there are Trollocs.... or something that Sweet thinks
> are Trollocs. You see, their faces are human faces, only their helms are
> shaped as animal heads...
And their armor is unmarked and Beautiful...not the kind of stuff you'd fight in...Lots of
neat metalwork to catch sword and spear points...
> OK, the horn looks like the Horn of Valere :)
>
> The Dragon Reborn: This scene may be closest to a scene from the book
> in the series... Not totally accurate, though, but good as a cover.
> Actually, apart from the faces etc., I haven't got any nasty comments
> about this one.
>
> Shadow Rising: However, this one is lousy. Who is who??? Where are
> they? Probably in the Aiel Waste, I should think... 'Nuff said.
>
> The Fires of Heaven: Arrgh... That one must be Mat,
I think Mat looks pretty okay, even though the dude in the picture is 15 years
too old.
> that must be Rand,
> who is the gal? If I guess the scene correctly, it is Aviendha. Now, the
> Trollocs' faces have changed to something more animal-like, so that saves
> this cover.
>
> My suggestion for a 'good' cover artist: Jim Burns. See for example
> Brin's Sundiver... Another one is Boris Vallejo, though he must be
> categorized as a good artist who also makes covers (that is, the cover
> usually hasn't got too much to do with the book... there are exceptions,
> though...
>
But, can we change the cover artist in the middle of the series? That might be
even worse; Sweet's stuff is at least a _little_ continuous with its self and
the series.
Nominations are open for cover artist on the second edition of the series.
I like Michael Whelan.
Brad Peterson
sl...@cc.usu.edu
sl...@cc.usu.edu
>
>> OK, who is that huge guy on a huge horse?
>
Uh, uh. I think he's in Western armor, but has Samurai swords. I always
connected the Shienarans and other Borderland guys with Feudal
Japan...topknots, curved swords, their whole warrior way of life...
> -Karl
>
Brad "WishIwere a Borderlander" Peterson
sl...@cc.usu.edu