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Anti-Human SF
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Al Lal
May 5, 2013, 3:26:04 PM5/5/13
to
I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
For example:
1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very good. If somebody has any ideas or examples of anti-human-SF, please let me know.
Abhinav Lal
Creator & Rebel
For example:
1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very good. If somebody has any ideas or examples of anti-human-SF, please let me know.
Abhinav Lal
Creator & Rebel
Will in New Haven
May 5, 2013, 3:38:00 PM5/5/13
to
However, I despise you and don't want to give you information that
might please you.
--
Will in New Haven
"That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
Johny Mandel - "Suicide is Painless"
Lynn McGuire
May 5, 2013, 4:03:26 PM5/5/13
to
you might want to try:
1. _Agent to the Stars_ by John Scalzi
http://www.amazon.com/Agent-Stars-John-Scalzi/dp/0765357003/
2. _Contact with Chaos_ by Michael Williamson
http://www.amazon.com/Contact-Chaos-Michael-Z-Williamson/dp/1439133735/
3. The Weapon by Michael Williamson
http://www.amazon.com/The-Weapon-Michael-Z-Williamson/dp/1416521186/
not aliens but a human society attacking Earth back
4. Arther C. Clarke's 2001, 2010, 2061, 3010 series???
Lynn
J. Clarke
May 5, 2013, 4:22:02 PM5/5/13
to
In article <a136b03a-ee7e-4401-a880-
029668...@i3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, willre...@yahoo.com
says...
"You're not worthy".
029668...@i3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, willre...@yahoo.com
says...
>
> On May 5, 3:26 pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
> >
> > For example:
> >
> > 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
> >
> > 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
> >
> > I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very good. If somebody has any ideas or examples of anti-human-SF, please let me know.
>
> There is actually a LOT of SF out there that might meet your needs.
> However, I despise you and don't want to give you information that
> might please you.
You are reminding me of Arrogant Bastard Ale--on the label it says
> On May 5, 3:26 pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
> >
> > For example:
> >
> > 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
> >
> > 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
> >
> > I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very good. If somebody has any ideas or examples of anti-human-SF, please let me know.
>
> There is actually a LOT of SF out there that might meet your needs.
> However, I despise you and don't want to give you information that
> might please you.
"You're not worthy".
Scott Fluhrer
May 5, 2013, 7:26:16 PM5/5/13
to
"Lynn McGuire" <l...@winsim.com> wrote in message
news:km6dnu$gah$1...@dont-email.me...
it just doesn't portray humanity as Evil.
I do have the following suggestions:
A. _A_Call_to_Arms_, by Alan Dean Foster
http://www.amazon.com/A-Call-Arms-The-Damned/dp/0345375742/ref=pd_sim_b_2
Humans as uniquely unsympathetic [1]
B. _Forge_of_God_ by Greg Bear
http://www.amazon.com/Forge-God-Greg-Bear/dp/0765301075/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367796072&sr=1-1&keywords=Bear+Forge+of+God
Doesn't portray humans as specifically Evil; however if Al Lal hates
humanity as he says, he might enjoy this...
[1]: unsympathetic not in the sense of unlikable, but unaffected by the
misery of others...
Lynn McGuire
May 5, 2013, 7:59:47 PM5/5/13
to
Lynn
alie...@gmail.com
May 5, 2013, 9:05:43 PM5/5/13
to
On May 5, 12:26 pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>
> For example:
>
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
The recent remake of the movie The Day The Earth Stood Still comes
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>
> For example:
>
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
pretty close.
David Brin's Uplift series includes not a few alien species who want
to scrub Earth clean of humans and allow something else to evolve
(with suitable "guidance"), but their motive is to make serfs (they
call them "clients") of them for a few millennia to "pay off the
debt".
> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/
Mark L. Fergerson
lal_truckee
May 5, 2013, 9:07:46 PM5/5/13
to
On 5/5/13 12:26 PM, Al Lal wrote:
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>
> For example:
>
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
>
Varley's eight worlds fits, featuring a sloppy protector allowing a few
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>
> For example:
>
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
>
vermin humans to persist.
> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
>
irritating than Jordan's.
ppint. at pplay
May 5, 2013, 9:46:20 PM5/5/13
to
- hi; in article,
<5fe98fe6-612d-4322...@googlegroups.com>,
alal1...@gmail.com "Abhinav Lal" announced:
[]
both by c.j. cherryh. post back here about how you get on
with these two novels, and with the ideas they investigate.
>For example:
>
>1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in
>the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop
>humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of
>valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer
>throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be
>able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
- try _Childhood's End_ by arthur c. clarke.
>2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for
>its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge.
>He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people
>and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
- try any abrahamic religion's holy book(s). include
those of the modern manufactured religions and cults.
(do *not* post back here regarding your impressions of
these, save in regard to their effectiveness as fiction
intended to further human suffering. possibly.)
try also _The Men in the Jungle_ by norman spinrad.
if this goes down well, his _The Iron Dream_ may also
appeal (or appal).
>I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very good.
- anyone can have an idea; it's learning to tell an
interesting (and preferably entertaining) story that
investigates the idea's effects on your characters
and how they cope, or fail to cope, that determines
whether your stories are any good (and maybe saleable).
- finish what you write, and submit aught you and your
long-suffering friends & family think good enough to
the remaining professional & semi-pro magazines. read
any feedback you may be lucky enough to be sent, and
think about it. keep on trying - probably.
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"No creature without tentacles had ever developed true intelligence."
- "Hunting Problem" Robert Sheckley
<5fe98fe6-612d-4322...@googlegroups.com>,
alal1...@gmail.com "Abhinav Lal" announced:
[]
>I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity.
- try _Serpent's Reach_ and _Forty Thousand in Gehenna_,
both by c.j. cherryh. post back here about how you get on
with these two novels, and with the ideas they investigate.
>For example:
>
>1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in
>the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop
>humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of
>valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer
>throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be
>able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
>2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for
>its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge.
>He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people
>and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
those of the modern manufactured religions and cults.
(do *not* post back here regarding your impressions of
these, save in regard to their effectiveness as fiction
intended to further human suffering. possibly.)
try also _The Men in the Jungle_ by norman spinrad.
if this goes down well, his _The Iron Dream_ may also
appeal (or appal).
>I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very good.
interesting (and preferably entertaining) story that
investigates the idea's effects on your characters
and how they cope, or fail to cope, that determines
whether your stories are any good (and maybe saleable).
- finish what you write, and submit aught you and your
long-suffering friends & family think good enough to
the remaining professional & semi-pro magazines. read
any feedback you may be lucky enough to be sent, and
think about it. keep on trying - probably.
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"No creature without tentacles had ever developed true intelligence."
- "Hunting Problem" Robert Sheckley
humanity
May 5, 2013, 9:52:57 PM5/5/13
to
alal1...@gmail.com "Abhinav Lal" declared:
we may not be too keen on sharing the planet with you.
--
"Some men are okay now. [..] We still have to keep them in line,
of course, but we no longer have to shoot them on sight."
- _Sex Tips for Girls_ cynthia heimel 1983
>
>I am bored with living on this planet with humans.
[]
>I have a negative opinion of humanity [..]
>I am bored with living on this planet with humans.
[]
we may not be too keen on sharing the planet with you.
--
"Some men are okay now. [..] We still have to keep them in line,
of course, but we no longer have to shoot them on sight."
- _Sex Tips for Girls_ cynthia heimel 1983
Robert Carnegie
May 6, 2013, 6:11:11 AM5/6/13
to
On Sunday, 5 May 2013 20:26:04 UTC+1, Al Lal wrote:
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans.
> I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays
> humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity,
> and believe that there must be others who share
> my feelings.
I'm afraid you're stuck with us.
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans.
> I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays
> humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity,
> and believe that there must be others who share
> my feelings.
Nevertheless, _On the Beach_ by Neville Shute portrays
a world in which humanity has been exterminated by
nuclear war except for Australia, but so has all other
life, too.
I glanced at Alistair Beaton's _A Planet for the President_
on the remaindered shelf.
There's the "Left Behind" novels, which independent
and open-minded critics say are quite bad.
And Doctor Who has seen humans as the bad guys
a few times, and also as targets of genocide.
Mostly outside SF, there are writers such as
Mark Twain and H. L. Mencken.
Quadibloc
May 6, 2013, 12:19:00 PM5/6/13
to
On May 5, 1:26 pm, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
Well, to make the story you want, the alien would have to be a
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
sympathetic character. The reader would have to believe that the alien
is doing the right thing, at least from one point of view.
But presumably if humanity is a danger to life elsewhere in the
Universe, that's only because of a few bad humans. If he will kill all
of humanity for the misdeeds of a few, instead of dealing with those
who are actually culpable - then he is not acting morally.
John Savard
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
May 6, 2013, 1:19:46 PM5/6/13
to
"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote in
news:MPG.2bf089707...@news.newsguy.com:
> In article <a136b03a-ee7e-4401-a880-
> 029668...@i3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
> willre...@yahoo.com says...
>>
>> On May 5, 3:26锟絧m, Al Lal <alal112...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I am bored with living on this planet with humans. 锟絀 would
>> > like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. 锟絀
>> > of all life in the universe. 锟紿is purpose is to make extinct
>> > punish humanity for its sins. 锟紿e is born in human form, with
>> > secret purpose and knowledge. 锟紿e gains influence in the
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
news:MPG.2bf089707...@news.newsguy.com:
> In article <a136b03a-ee7e-4401-a880-
> 029668...@i3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
> willre...@yahoo.com says...
>>
>> > I am bored with living on this planet with humans. 锟絀 would
>> > like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. 锟絀
>> > have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there
>> > must be others who share my feelings.
>> >
>> > For example:
>> >
>> > 1. 锟紸n Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector
>> > must be others who share my feelings.
>> >
>> > For example:
>> >
>> > of all life in the universe. 锟紿is purpose is to make extinct
>> > humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's
>> > environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and
>> > also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer
>> > throughout the universe. 锟紹y making humanity extinct, other
>> > environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and
>> > also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer
>> > species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species
>> > will evolve.
>> >
>> > 2. 锟紾od sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to
>> > will evolve.
>> >
>> > punish humanity for its sins. 锟紿e is born in human form, with
>> > secret purpose and knowledge. 锟紿e gains influence in the
>> > world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their
>> > leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
>> >
>> > I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very
>> > good. 锟絀f somebody has any ideas or examples of
>> > leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
>> >
>> > I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very
>> > anti-human-SF, please let me know.
>>
>> There is actually a LOT of SF out there that might meet your
>> needs. However, I despise you and don't want to give you
>> information that might please you.
>
> You are reminding me of Arrogant Bastard Ale--on the label it
> says "You're not worthy".
>
He reminds me more of a beer I saw on Fark today: Old Leghumper.
>>
>> There is actually a LOT of SF out there that might meet your
>> needs. However, I despise you and don't want to give you
>> information that might please you.
>
> You are reminding me of Arrogant Bastard Ale--on the label it
> says "You're not worthy".
>
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
A.G.McDowell
May 6, 2013, 1:40:15 PM5/6/13
to
that this is his way of working through the after-affects of his service
in Vietnam. I read his books for views of people struggling through. The
first books of two of his series are available in the Baen Free Library.
"With The Lightnings", at
http://www.baenebooks.com/p-469-with-the-lightnings.aspx, is the
lightest of the two - both the main characters are cynical about human
behaviour. Leary is cynically amused, while Mundy uses work to distract
herself from a bleak worldview.
"The Tank Lords", at
http://www.baenebooks.com/p-624-the-tank-lords.aspx, is about a
tough-minded group of mercenaries. War, as they say, is hell. And, as
Drake has noticed, the actions of humanity both convict it and punish it
- no external punisher is necessary, except for the consquences of its
own actions.
Dan Goodman
May 6, 2013, 3:07:40 PM5/6/13
to
On Sun, 05 May 2013 12:26:04 -0700, Al Lal wrote:
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read
> some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of
> humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
Michael Shaara, "All the Way Back." The most evil race in the universe
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read
> some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of
> humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
was almost wiped out; but a few of them found refuge on Earth.
Colin Kapp, _Transfinite Man_. Same basic idea; but multiverse rather
than one puny universe.
--
Dan Goodman
Mark Zenier
May 6, 2013, 1:16:46 PM5/6/13
to
In article <5fe98fe6-612d-4322...@googlegroups.com>,
Number one on my list has got to be Thomas M. Disch's _The Genocides_
where offscreen aliens seed the earth with something like giant mutant
sugarcane that takes over, leaving a tiny remant of humans to deal with
each other. Sausage anyone?
Another item: _Men Like Rats_ by Rob Chilson, where the world is totally
automated by some unexplained event leaving humans to live like vermin in
the cracks of infrastructure. (This theme was also done by Edward Bryant
in a work I've not read, but Chilson had a disclaimer that he was unaware
of that work when he wrote his).
"For I Am A Jealous People!" by Lester Del Rey, where God feels we
have broken the Covenant and invades with his space alien servants
and wages war on mankind.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
where offscreen aliens seed the earth with something like giant mutant
sugarcane that takes over, leaving a tiny remant of humans to deal with
each other. Sausage anyone?
Another item: _Men Like Rats_ by Rob Chilson, where the world is totally
automated by some unexplained event leaving humans to live like vermin in
the cracks of infrastructure. (This theme was also done by Edward Bryant
in a work I've not read, but Chilson had a disclaimer that he was unaware
of that work when he wrote his).
"For I Am A Jealous People!" by Lester Del Rey, where God feels we
have broken the Covenant and invades with his space alien servants
and wages war on mankind.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
Dorothy J Heydt
May 7, 2013, 12:30:45 PM5/7/13
to
In article <kmb7f...@enews1.newsguy.com>,
I haven't been following this thread closely ... has anyone yet
mentioned Michael Shaara's "All the Way Back"? In which it
transpires that humans are the plague of the Galaxy, continually
erupting into space and conquering/killing everyone in sight,
till they're beaten down back to Earth, whereupon they reinvent
their technology and come out and do it again....
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
mentioned Michael Shaara's "All the Way Back"? In which it
transpires that humans are the plague of the Galaxy, continually
erupting into space and conquering/killing everyone in sight,
till they're beaten down back to Earth, whereupon they reinvent
their technology and come out and do it again....
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Lynn McGuire
May 7, 2013, 12:48:49 PM5/7/13
to
http://www.amazon.com/Matter-For-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553277820/
Somebody starts terraforming the Earth with
plants and animals and Humans are on the
losing end. Big time.
Lynn
Wayne Throop
May 7, 2013, 1:46:12 PM5/7/13
to
: djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
: I haven't been following this thread closely ... has anyone yet
of Schismatrix et al. Humans *are* going to be dealt with by the Swarm,
and it *is* because humans are dangerous... but it's not so much humanity
as such that the Swarm try to suppress, but any/all intelligent life.
Intelligent species tend to wreak havoc with the galaxy, then have
a singularity, and transcend... and disappear from the scene.
How the Swarm deals with intelligences, and isn't itself vulnerable
to singularity or transcendence, is both interesting and gruesome.
And in some way their purpose is "benign"... sort of... vaguely arguably.
At least, humans won't disappear from the universe. From a certain
point of view.
The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody
in their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
Vinge's "The Witling" for one example. And of course, Brown's
"Letter to a Phoenix".
Or an odd variant on the idea, Ken MacLead's "Learning the World",
with the concept of the Fast Burn... which never spreads to engulf all
of humanity, because the singularity comes *fast*, and blows up before
it can spread. In that case, the rest of humanity that discovers these
sharply limited regions of Fast Burn are given a cautionary tale which
may help stabilize them by giving them motive not to go overboard.
Or so I read between the lines.
Another related trope/meme-complex, is just the humanity is
hyper-uber-dangerous, but aliens can't resist (for various motives that
seem reasonable to them at the time) a quick game of poke the goozim
with a stick. Some examples from Gordon Dickson's work, and things like
Foster's "With Friends Like These...".
And then there's the "When Aliens Attack" trope cluster, in which humans
hang on their their fingernails, and slowly fight back and make said
aliens Very Sorry Indeed. The old novel "Crown of Infinity" for example,
or the much more recent (contemporary in fact) Koozebane series... no
wait, that's "Koban series". Might bring to mind Heinlein's "Have
Spacesuit, Will Travel", the "trial of humanity" bit, but that's another
meme entire, and then there's the "When Mars Attacks" implications in
Stranger in a Strange Land, what with Valentine Michael Smith giving
humanity the wherewithall to resist the earth being blowed up good
once the martians had thought about it enough, and declared war on
humanity......
Ahem. But I digress. Probably "Swarm" is the only non-topic-drifted case.
Or at least, least-topic-drifted in this post.
"All right, take away our star -- You will if you can and I guess you
can. Go ahead! We'll *make* a star! Then, someday, we'll come back
and hunt you down-all of you!"
--- Kip Russell
: I haven't been following this thread closely ... has anyone yet
: mentioned Michael Shaara's "All the Way Back"? In which it transpires
: that humans are the plague of the Galaxy, continually erupting into
: space and conquering/killing everyone in sight, till they're beaten
: down back to Earth, whereupon they reinvent their technology and come
: out and do it again....
A related meme is used in "Swarm" from the Shaper/Mechanist setting
: that humans are the plague of the Galaxy, continually erupting into
: space and conquering/killing everyone in sight, till they're beaten
: down back to Earth, whereupon they reinvent their technology and come
: out and do it again....
of Schismatrix et al. Humans *are* going to be dealt with by the Swarm,
and it *is* because humans are dangerous... but it's not so much humanity
as such that the Swarm try to suppress, but any/all intelligent life.
Intelligent species tend to wreak havoc with the galaxy, then have
a singularity, and transcend... and disappear from the scene.
How the Swarm deals with intelligences, and isn't itself vulnerable
to singularity or transcendence, is both interesting and gruesome.
And in some way their purpose is "benign"... sort of... vaguely arguably.
At least, humans won't disappear from the universe. From a certain
point of view.
The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody
in their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
Vinge's "The Witling" for one example. And of course, Brown's
"Letter to a Phoenix".
Or an odd variant on the idea, Ken MacLead's "Learning the World",
with the concept of the Fast Burn... which never spreads to engulf all
of humanity, because the singularity comes *fast*, and blows up before
it can spread. In that case, the rest of humanity that discovers these
sharply limited regions of Fast Burn are given a cautionary tale which
may help stabilize them by giving them motive not to go overboard.
Or so I read between the lines.
Another related trope/meme-complex, is just the humanity is
hyper-uber-dangerous, but aliens can't resist (for various motives that
seem reasonable to them at the time) a quick game of poke the goozim
with a stick. Some examples from Gordon Dickson's work, and things like
Foster's "With Friends Like These...".
And then there's the "When Aliens Attack" trope cluster, in which humans
hang on their their fingernails, and slowly fight back and make said
aliens Very Sorry Indeed. The old novel "Crown of Infinity" for example,
or the much more recent (contemporary in fact) Koozebane series... no
wait, that's "Koban series". Might bring to mind Heinlein's "Have
Spacesuit, Will Travel", the "trial of humanity" bit, but that's another
meme entire, and then there's the "When Mars Attacks" implications in
Stranger in a Strange Land, what with Valentine Michael Smith giving
humanity the wherewithall to resist the earth being blowed up good
once the martians had thought about it enough, and declared war on
humanity......
Ahem. But I digress. Probably "Swarm" is the only non-topic-drifted case.
Or at least, least-topic-drifted in this post.
"All right, take away our star -- You will if you can and I guess you
can. Go ahead! We'll *make* a star! Then, someday, we'll come back
and hunt you down-all of you!"
--- Kip Russell
Dan Goodman
May 7, 2013, 4:10:04 PM5/7/13
to
On Tue, 07 May 2013 16:30:45 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> I haven't been following this thread closely ... has anyone yet
> mentioned Michael Shaara's "All the Way Back"? In which it transpires
> that humans are the plague of the Galaxy, continually erupting into
> space and conquering/killing everyone in sight, till they're beaten down
> back to Earth, whereupon they reinvent their technology and come out and
> do it again....
I mentioned it.
> I haven't been following this thread closely ... has anyone yet
> mentioned Michael Shaara's "All the Way Back"? In which it transpires
> that humans are the plague of the Galaxy, continually erupting into
> space and conquering/killing everyone in sight, till they're beaten down
> back to Earth, whereupon they reinvent their technology and come out and
> do it again....
--
Dan Goodman
Lynn McGuire
May 7, 2013, 6:33:18 PM5/7/13
to
On 5/5/2013 8:07 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
> On 5/5/13 12:26 PM, Al Lal wrote:
>> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a
>> negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity,
>> in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent
>> humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and
>> prosper, and new species will evolve.
>>
> Varley's eight worlds fits, featuring a sloppy protector allowing a few vermin humans to persist.
Yes! And also the series from ??????? who
> On 5/5/13 12:26 PM, Al Lal wrote:
>> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a
>> negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity,
>> in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent
>> humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and
>> prosper, and new species will evolve.
>>
> Varley's eight worlds fits, featuring a sloppy protector allowing a few vermin humans to persist.
had the aliens drop by the Earth and drop
off a few nanomachines which then start to
gobble the Earth. The primary author's
name starts with a W and cannot remember
the other author.
>> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret
>> purpose and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their leaders he works
>> with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
>>
> This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more irritating than Jordan's.
Lynn McGuire
May 7, 2013, 9:19:13 PM5/7/13
to
http://www.amazon.com/Echoes-Earth-Sean-Williams/dp/0441008925/
Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
May 8, 2013, 1:09:50 AM5/8/13
to
In article <km6vih$hn4$1...@dont-email.me>,
Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
(cue the old Ace Double joke)
(cue the old Ace Double joke)
Dorothy J Heydt
May 8, 2013, 1:11:09 AM5/8/13
to
In article <13679...@sheol.org>, Wayne Throop <thr...@sheol.org> wrote:
>
>The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody
>in their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
>sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
>collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
>Vinge's "The Witling" for one example. And of course, Brown's
>"Letter to a Phoenix".
I was just going to say.
>
>The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody
>in their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
>sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
>collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
>Vinge's "The Witling" for one example. And of course, Brown's
>"Letter to a Phoenix".
>
> "All right, take away our star -- You will if you can and I guess you
> can. Go ahead! We'll *make* a star! Then, someday, we'll come back
> and hunt you down-all of you!"
"Perhaps you will."
> "All right, take away our star -- You will if you can and I guess you
> can. Go ahead! We'll *make* a star! Then, someday, we'll come back
> and hunt you down-all of you!"
J. Clarke
May 8, 2013, 1:25:05 AM5/8/13
to
In article <MMGro...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
Four, counting the Koran and the Book of Mormon.
Stephen Harker
May 8, 2013, 3:52:58 AM5/8/13
to
thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) writes:
> And then there's the "When Aliens Attack" trope cluster, in which humans
> hang on their their fingernails, and slowly fight back and make said
> aliens Very Sorry Indeed. The old novel "Crown of Infinity" for example,
> or the much more recent (contemporary in fact) Koozebane series... no
> wait, that's "Koban series". Might bring to mind Heinlein's "Have
> Spacesuit, Will Travel", the "trial of humanity" bit, but that's another
> meme entire, and then there's the "When Mars Attacks" implications in
> Stranger in a Strange Land, what with Valentine Michael Smith giving
> humanity the wherewithall to resist the earth being blowed up good
> once the martians had thought about it enough, and declared war on
> humanity......
Then there are stories such as Algis Budrys *The Stoker and the Stars*
> And then there's the "When Aliens Attack" trope cluster, in which humans
> hang on their their fingernails, and slowly fight back and make said
> aliens Very Sorry Indeed. The old novel "Crown of Infinity" for example,
> or the much more recent (contemporary in fact) Koozebane series... no
> wait, that's "Koban series". Might bring to mind Heinlein's "Have
> Spacesuit, Will Travel", the "trial of humanity" bit, but that's another
> meme entire, and then there's the "When Mars Attacks" implications in
> Stranger in a Strange Land, what with Valentine Michael Smith giving
> humanity the wherewithall to resist the earth being blowed up good
> once the martians had thought about it enough, and declared war on
> humanity......
in which humans try to fight and fail.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?55628
--
Stephen Harker s.ha...@adfa.edu.au
PEMS http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
UNSW@ADFA
Robert Carnegie
May 8, 2013, 7:38:31 AM5/8/13
to
but, of course, that's true of the first anthology volume.
And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
before the Sun exists - that author seems to be unaware of the
relationship of one to the other. Not good sf.
Taking the Koran as a re-imagining and rewrite of previous episodes,
but I've read that the very devout former leader of a Nigerian Muslim
group called "We Don't Need No Education" declared the planet Earth to
be un-Islamic inasmuch as it is an oblate spheroid and therefore
contradicts holy scripture.[*] I have no clear idea which part of the
holy scripture he was thinking of, or if he'd actually read it or just
CliffsNotes. (Apparently the Prophet was no great reader of scripture
either. Seriously.) I've heard it said (and disputed) in terms of which
party U.S. states vote for that that the farther away people are
from the sea - and a diet including fish and omega-3 oil, presumably -
the dumber they are, and this seems also to apply to Boko Haram.
Viewing land /from/ some distance away at sea is the big clue to
the shape of the world, anyway, but I thought that by now and except
for a handful of pranksters (maybe including BH as such), we had got
that, so to speak, straightened out.
[*] <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8172270.stm> and if the
BBC says it then it must be true, maybe.
Lonnie Clay
May 8, 2013, 10:03:19 AM5/8/13
to
On Sunday, May 5, 2013 12:26:04 PM UTC-7, Al Lal wrote:
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>
>
>
> For example:
>
>
>
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
>
>
>
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>
>
>
> For example:
>
>
>
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
>
>
>
> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very good. If somebody has any ideas or examples of anti-human-SF, please let me know.
>
>
>
> Abhinav Lal
>
> Creator & Rebel
You're misanthropic.
>
>
>
> Abhinav Lal
>
> Creator & Rebel
Lonnie Courtney Clay
Greg Goss
May 8, 2013, 11:47:43 AM5/8/13
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 5/5/13 12:26 PM, Al Lal wrote:
>>> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish
>>humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose
>>and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but
>>unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to
>>make humanity suffer.
>>>
>>This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
>>irritating than Jordan's.
>
>Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>
>(cue the old Ace Double joke)
I take it that, like the people who refuse to believe in several of
>lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 5/5/13 12:26 PM, Al Lal wrote:
>>> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish
>>humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose
>>and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but
>>unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to
>>make humanity suffer.
>>>
>>This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
>>irritating than Jordan's.
>
>Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>
>(cue the old Ace Double joke)
the Star Wars movies, extra highlander movies etc, you go through life
wishing that the third volume written in the early seventh century
never existed?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
May 8, 2013, 11:51:47 AM5/8/13
to
Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>How about the Chtorr series by David Gerrold?
> http://www.amazon.com/Matter-For-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553277820/
>
>Somebody starts terraforming the Earth with
>plants and animals and Humans are on the
>losing end. Big time.
I forget how that series ended.
>How about the Chtorr series by David Gerrold?
> http://www.amazon.com/Matter-For-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553277820/
>
>Somebody starts terraforming the Earth with
>plants and animals and Humans are on the
>losing end. Big time.
:)
William December Starr
May 8, 2013, 1:39:16 PM5/8/13
to
In article <auvacr...@mid.individual.net>,
Maybe she just doesn't count unauthorized fanfic sequels.
-- wds
-- wds
William December Starr
May 8, 2013, 1:47:55 PM5/8/13
to
In article <kmbb31$uq2$2...@dont-email.me>,
the series.
-- wds
Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
> How about the Chtorr series by David Gerrold?
> http://www.amazon.com/Matter-For-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553277820/
>
> Somebody starts terraforming the Earth with
> plants and animals and Humans are on the
> losing end. Big time.
However, humanity cleverly avoids extinction by never finishing
> How about the Chtorr series by David Gerrold?
> http://www.amazon.com/Matter-For-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553277820/
>
> Somebody starts terraforming the Earth with
> plants and animals and Humans are on the
> losing end. Big time.
the series.
-- wds
William December Starr
May 8, 2013, 1:53:44 PM5/8/13
to
In article <91c4550b-755d-4e73...@a16g2000pbu.googlegroups.com>,
"nu...@bid.nes" <alie...@gmail.com> said:
> David Brin's Uplift series includes not a few alien species who
> want to scrub Earth clean of humans and allow something else to
> evolve (with suitable "guidance"), but their motive is to make
> serfs (they call them "clients") of them for a few millennia to
> "pay off the debt".
100,000 years. Not to nitpick, but 100 > "a few".
-- wds
"nu...@bid.nes" <alie...@gmail.com> said:
> David Brin's Uplift series includes not a few alien species who
> want to scrub Earth clean of humans and allow something else to
> evolve (with suitable "guidance"), but their motive is to make
> serfs (they call them "clients") of them for a few millennia to
> "pay off the debt".
100,000 years. Not to nitpick, but 100 > "a few".
-- wds
William December Starr
May 8, 2013, 1:56:50 PM5/8/13
to
In article <13679...@sheol.org>,
aliens believing, reasonably, that releasing humanity from its
confinement was the least-bad course of action available to them.
-- wds
thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) said:
> Another related trope/meme-complex, is just the humanity is
> hyper-uber-dangerous, but aliens can't resist (for various motives
> that seem reasonable to them at the time) a quick game of poke the
> goozim with a stick. Some examples from Gordon Dickson's work,
> and things like Foster's "With Friends Like These...".
I believe that in the latter story it wasn't so much that as the
> Another related trope/meme-complex, is just the humanity is
> hyper-uber-dangerous, but aliens can't resist (for various motives
> that seem reasonable to them at the time) a quick game of poke the
> goozim with a stick. Some examples from Gordon Dickson's work,
> and things like Foster's "With Friends Like These...".
aliens believing, reasonably, that releasing humanity from its
confinement was the least-bad course of action available to them.
-- wds
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
May 8, 2013, 2:13:53 PM5/8/13
to
wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in
news:kme3f8$to$1...@panix2.panix.com:
> In article
> <91c4550b-755d-4e73...@a16g2000pbu.googlegroups.co
news:kme3f8$to$1...@panix2.panix.com:
> In article
> <91c4550b-755d-4e73...@a16g2000pbu.googlegroups.co
> m>, "nu...@bid.nes" <alie...@gmail.com> said:
>
>> David Brin's Uplift series includes not a few alien species who
>> want to scrub Earth clean of humans and allow something else to
>> evolve (with suitable "guidance"), but their motive is to make
>> serfs (they call them "clients") of them for a few millennia to
>> "pay off the debt".
>
> 100,000 years. Not to nitpick, but 100 > "a few".
>
Not really, on the time scales of that universe.
>
>> David Brin's Uplift series includes not a few alien species who
>> want to scrub Earth clean of humans and allow something else to
>> evolve (with suitable "guidance"), but their motive is to make
>> serfs (they call them "clients") of them for a few millennia to
>> "pay off the debt".
>
> 100,000 years. Not to nitpick, but 100 > "a few".
>
Lynn McGuire
May 8, 2013, 2:30:14 PM5/8/13
to
we just don't believe it.
Lynn
William December Starr
May 8, 2013, 2:42:04 PM5/8/13
to
In article <XnsA1BA7241251...@69.16.186.50>,
on the other hand (or even of the species as a whole), it could make
a big difference on mindset, morale, etc.
Hmm, there's no reason, I suppose, why one species couldn't have
included "extremely extended lifespan (no really, _extremely_)" in
their uplift of another one. I don't recall it coming up in the
_Sundiver_, _Startide Rising_, _The Uplift War_ sequence though
(those being he only ones I read), so I'm going to arbitrarily
assume that it didn't happen.
-- wds
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> said:
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote
>> "nu...@bid.nes" <alie...@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>> David Brin's Uplift series includes not a few alien species who
>>> want to scrub Earth clean of humans and allow something else to
>>> evolve (with suitable "guidance"), but their motive is to make
>>> serfs (they call them "clients") of them for a few millennia to
>>> "pay off the debt".
>>
>> 100,000 years. Not to nitpick, but 100 > "a few".
>
> Not really, on the time scales of that universe.
From the point of view of an individual member of a client species,
>>
>>> David Brin's Uplift series includes not a few alien species who
>>> want to scrub Earth clean of humans and allow something else to
>>> evolve (with suitable "guidance"), but their motive is to make
>>> serfs (they call them "clients") of them for a few millennia to
>>> "pay off the debt".
>>
>> 100,000 years. Not to nitpick, but 100 > "a few".
>
> Not really, on the time scales of that universe.
on the other hand (or even of the species as a whole), it could make
a big difference on mindset, morale, etc.
Hmm, there's no reason, I suppose, why one species couldn't have
included "extremely extended lifespan (no really, _extremely_)" in
their uplift of another one. I don't recall it coming up in the
_Sundiver_, _Startide Rising_, _The Uplift War_ sequence though
(those being he only ones I read), so I'm going to arbitrarily
assume that it didn't happen.
-- wds
Wayne Throop
May 8, 2013, 2:29:34 PM5/8/13
to
:: Another related trope/meme-complex, is just the humanity is
:: hyper-uber-dangerous, but aliens can't resist (for various motives
:: that seem reasonable to them at the time) a quick game of poke the
:: goozim with a stick. Some examples from Gordon Dickson's work, and
:: things like Foster's "With Friends Like These...".
: wds...@panix.com (William December Starr)
:: hyper-uber-dangerous, but aliens can't resist (for various motives
:: that seem reasonable to them at the time) a quick game of poke the
:: goozim with a stick. Some examples from Gordon Dickson's work, and
:: things like Foster's "With Friends Like These...".
: I believe that in the latter story it wasn't so much that as the
: aliens believing, reasonably, that releasing humanity from its
: confinement was the least-bad course of action available to them.
That falls under the "seemed reasonable at the time" provision.
: confinement was the least-bad course of action available to them.
Hm. AD Foster's "The Damned" series might also contain elements of
this. And if you stretch it a bit more, Zahn's "Cobra" series (with
the Cobras in particular instead of humanity in general cast in the
"hyper-uber-dangerous" role). the current situation is that the heirs of
the original human goverment that exiled them as being far too dangerous
to live with normal humans are playing "poke the goozim with a stick"
with them. Though since they're backed with many decades of further arms
developments, while the Cobras have been more technologically static,
might not have the usual outcome... but again, falls under "seemed like
a good idea at the time", so maybe it'll work out[1].
[1] Actually, poke the goozim with a stick isn't as dangerous a game
as it might first appear, since mostly, the goozim doesn't get out.
So by "maybe it'll work out", I mostly mean, the goozim gets out.
Hey, in this case, or even all these cases, we're rooting for
the goozim, right?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
May 8, 2013, 2:55:35 PM5/8/13
to
wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in
news:kme69s$aju$1...@panix2.panix.com:
The only thing you missed was varying degrees of pain, boredom
and/or rage.
> so I'm going to
> arbitrarily assume that it didn't happen.
>
I don't recall anything like that, either. Been a while, though.
news:kme69s$aju$1...@panix2.panix.com:
and/or rage.
> so I'm going to
> arbitrarily assume that it didn't happen.
>
Dorothy J Heydt
May 8, 2013, 2:48:37 PM5/8/13
to
In article <auvacr...@mid.individual.net>,
WHICH volume written in the early seventh century? There are
lots of apocrypha, some of them very silly.
lots of apocrypha, some of them very silly.
Joseph Nebus
May 8, 2013, 3:13:11 PM5/8/13
to
of a giggle, on the Chtorr series?
My Dearly Beloved was curious, on hearing about this series,
why the book Gerrold has said was ready for the publisher wasn't after
all this time apparently ready for the publishing, and I haven't got a
good idea or even a snarky one.
--
http://nebusresearch.wordpress.com/ Joseph Nebus
Latest: Complex Experiments with Grading Mathematics http://wp.me/p1RYhY-rX
--------------------------------------------------------+---------------------
Wayne Throop
May 8, 2013, 3:18:23 PM5/8/13
to
: nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus)
: My Dearly Beloved was curious, on hearing about this series, why the
: My Dearly Beloved was curious, on hearing about this series, why the
: book Gerrold has said was ready for the publisher wasn't after all
: this time apparently ready for the publishing, and I haven't got a
: good idea or even a snarky one.
Because he wants to grow up to be Harlan Ellison?
: this time apparently ready for the publishing, and I haven't got a
: good idea or even a snarky one.
Cryptoengineer
May 8, 2013, 3:20:22 PM5/8/13
to
On May 8, 2:48 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <auvacrFbrq...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
3, following on the original Abe Levi's "Master of Chaos" and its
posthumous sequel "The Thing with Three Souls" (1&2 later came out as
an Ace Double). Fans of the earlier parts of the series tend to
question the canonicity of later volumes in the series, including the
fourth "The Thing in the New World"
pt
> In article <auvacrFbrq...@mid.individual.net>,
> Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >>lal_truckee <lal_truc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>On 5/5/13 12:26 PM, Al Lal wrote:
>
> >>>> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish
> >>>humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose
> >>>and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but
> >>>unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to
> >>>make humanity suffer.
>
> >>>This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
> >>>irritating than Jordan's.
>
> >>Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>
> >>(cue the old Ace Double joke)
>
> >I take it that, like the people who refuse to believe in several of
> >the Star Wars movies, extra highlander movies etc, you go through life
> >wishing that the third volume written in the early seventh century
> >never existed?
>
> WHICH volume written in the early seventh century? There are
> lots of apocrypha, some of them very silly.
I think he's referring to 'The Thing from the Desert', which is volume
> >>>On 5/5/13 12:26 PM, Al Lal wrote:
>
> >>>> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish
> >>>humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose
> >>>and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but
> >>>unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to
> >>>make humanity suffer.
>
> >>>This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
> >>>irritating than Jordan's.
>
> >>Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>
> >>(cue the old Ace Double joke)
>
> >I take it that, like the people who refuse to believe in several of
> >the Star Wars movies, extra highlander movies etc, you go through life
> >wishing that the third volume written in the early seventh century
> >never existed?
>
> WHICH volume written in the early seventh century? There are
> lots of apocrypha, some of them very silly.
3, following on the original Abe Levi's "Master of Chaos" and its
posthumous sequel "The Thing with Three Souls" (1&2 later came out as
an Ace Double). Fans of the earlier parts of the series tend to
question the canonicity of later volumes in the series, including the
fourth "The Thing in the New World"
pt
David DeLaney
May 8, 2013, 4:25:12 PM5/8/13
to
previous work in its entirety as the first five chapters. There was some
foofaraw a few centuries after the events that prompted the publishing of
book 2 that led to some Hard Decisions Being Made on which bits were actually
fanfic, as I recall?
Dave, and even to-day there's a couple different editions available, plus a
collection of the fanfic
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Jorgen Grahn
May 8, 2013, 4:11:27 PM5/8/13
to
On Sun, 2013-05-05, Al Lal wrote:
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to
> read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative
> opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share
> my feelings.
> For example:
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all
> life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in
> order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment
James Tiptree, Jr: The Last Flight of Dr. Ain.
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to
> read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative
> opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share
> my feelings.
> For example:
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all
> life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in
> order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment
You may also want to refer to Edgar Pangborn, who mixes pessimism with
hope in a beautiful way. I don't think it's a good idea to be
negative and seek for nothing but more of the same.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
J. Clarke
May 8, 2013, 4:22:43 PM5/8/13
to
In article <47749a2d-d156-4917-8fa9-9c6a74a25781
@g9g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, pete...@gmail.com says...
> > >>>humanity for its sins. ï¿œHe is born in human form, with secret purpose
> > >>>and knowledge. ï¿œHe gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but
interviews.
@g9g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, pete...@gmail.com says...
>
> On May 8, 2:48ï¿œpm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> > In article <auvacrFbrq...@mid.individual.net>,
> On May 8, 2:48ï¿œpm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> > In article <auvacrFbrq...@mid.individual.net>,
> > Greg Goss ￜ<go...@gossg.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> > >>>> 2. ï¿œGod sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> > >>>humanity for its sins. ï¿œHe is born in human form, with secret purpose
> > >>>and knowledge. ï¿œHe gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but
> > >>>unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to
> > >>>make humanity suffer.
> >
> > >>>This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
> > >>>irritating than Jordan's.
> >
> > >>Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
> >
> > >>(cue the old Ace Double joke)
> >
> > >I take it that, like the people who refuse to believe in several of
> > >the Star Wars movies, extra highlander movies etc, you go through life
> > >wishing that the third volume written in the early seventh century
> > >never existed?
> >
> > WHICH volume written in the early seventh century? ï¿œThere are
> > >>>make humanity suffer.
> >
> > >>>This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
> > >>>irritating than Jordan's.
> >
> > >>Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
> >
> > >>(cue the old Ace Double joke)
> >
> > >I take it that, like the people who refuse to believe in several of
> > >the Star Wars movies, extra highlander movies etc, you go through life
> > >wishing that the third volume written in the early seventh century
> > >never existed?
> >
> > lots of apocrypha, some of them very silly.
>
> I think he's referring to 'The Thing from the Desert', which is volume
> 3, following on the original Abe Levi's "Master of Chaos" and its
> posthumous sequel "The Thing with Three Souls" (1&2 later came out as
> an Ace Double). Fans of the earlier parts of the series tend to
> question the canonicity of later volumes in the series, including the
> fourth "The Thing in the New World"
And the alleged author doesn't seem to make Himself available for
>
> I think he's referring to 'The Thing from the Desert', which is volume
> 3, following on the original Abe Levi's "Master of Chaos" and its
> posthumous sequel "The Thing with Three Souls" (1&2 later came out as
> an Ace Double). Fans of the earlier parts of the series tend to
> question the canonicity of later volumes in the series, including the
> fourth "The Thing in the New World"
interviews.
David Johnston
May 8, 2013, 11:12:25 PM5/8/13
to
On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Wednesday, 8 May 2013 06:25:05 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <MMGro...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>> In article <km6vih$hn4$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
>>>> irritating than Jordan's.
>>>
>>> Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>>
>> Four, counting the Koran and the Book of Mormon.
>
> Sharecropper work, and there are problems with the continuity;
> but, of course, that's true of the first anthology volume.
> And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
> before the Sun exists -
Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
> On Wednesday, 8 May 2013 06:25:05 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
>> In article <MMGro...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
>>> In article <km6vih$hn4$1...@dont-email.me>,
>>> lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
>>>> irritating than Jordan's.
>>>
>>> Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>>
>> Four, counting the Koran and the Book of Mormon.
>
> Sharecropper work, and there are problems with the continuity;
> but, of course, that's true of the first anthology volume.
> And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
> before the Sun exists -
course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
Lynn McGuire
May 8, 2013, 11:14:13 PM5/8/13
to
On 5/8/2013 2:13 PM, Joseph Nebus wrote:
> In <kme34b$khv$1...@panix2.panix.com> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) writes:
>
>> In article <kmbb31$uq2$2...@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
>
>>> How about the Chtorr series by David Gerrold?
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Matter-For-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553277820/
>>>
>>> Somebody starts terraforming the Earth with
>>> plants and animals and Humans are on the
>>> losing end. Big time.
>
>> However, humanity cleverly avoids extinction by never finishing
>> the series.
>
> Say, is there any fresh news, he said while holding back a bit
> of a giggle, on the Chtorr series?
>
> My Dearly Beloved was curious, on hearing about this series,
> why the book Gerrold has said was ready for the publisher wasn't after
> all this time apparently ready for the publishing, and I haven't got a
> good idea or even a snarky one.
The Alert Level is Green!
> In <kme34b$khv$1...@panix2.panix.com> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) writes:
>
>> In article <kmbb31$uq2$2...@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> said:
>
>>> How about the Chtorr series by David Gerrold?
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Matter-For-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0553277820/
>>>
>>> Somebody starts terraforming the Earth with
>>> plants and animals and Humans are on the
>>> losing end. Big time.
>
>> However, humanity cleverly avoids extinction by never finishing
>> the series.
>
> Say, is there any fresh news, he said while holding back a bit
> of a giggle, on the Chtorr series?
>
> My Dearly Beloved was curious, on hearing about this series,
> why the book Gerrold has said was ready for the publisher wasn't after
> all this time apparently ready for the publishing, and I haven't got a
> good idea or even a snarky one.
http://www.gerrold.com/Chtorr-FAQ.htm
"When will 'A Method For Madness' be completed?
I hope to finish it this year. 2011. Really."
Is David Gerrold still alive?
Lynn
Wayne Throop
May 8, 2013, 11:24:58 PM5/8/13
to
: Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
: The Alert Level is Green!
"This page was last updated on Thursday, April 11, 2013."
Whether it was updated by Gerrold or by some minnion is unclear,
but it seems likely he's still alive.
: The Alert Level is Green!
: http://www.gerrold.com/Chtorr-FAQ.htm
:
: "When will 'A Method For Madness' be completed?
: I hope to finish it this year. 2011. Really."
:
: Is David Gerrold still alive?
Well, the fineprint on the above referenced page says
:
: "When will 'A Method For Madness' be completed?
: I hope to finish it this year. 2011. Really."
:
: Is David Gerrold still alive?
"This page was last updated on Thursday, April 11, 2013."
Whether it was updated by Gerrold or by some minnion is unclear,
but it seems likely he's still alive.
Moriarty
May 8, 2013, 11:37:47 PM5/8/13
to
Chtorr book still being worked on, there are another TWO to come. At
the rate he's going, the series will be finished by Billy-Bob Gerrold
and John-Boy J. Anderson sometime early next century.
-Moriarty
Ahasuerus
May 8, 2013, 11:42:37 PM5/8/13
to
On May 7, 12:30 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
[snip]
> I haven't been following this thread closely ... has anyone yet
> mentioned Michael Shaara's "All the Way Back"? In which it
> transpires that humans are the plague of the Galaxy, continually
> erupting into space and conquering/killing everyone in sight,
> till they're beaten down back to Earth, whereupon they reinvent
> their technology and come out and do it again....
There is also Edmond Hamilton 's _The Haunted Stars_ (1960) (http://
www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?452591), which explores similar themes.
[snip]
> I haven't been following this thread closely ... has anyone yet
> mentioned Michael Shaara's "All the Way Back"? In which it
> transpires that humans are the plague of the Galaxy, continually
> erupting into space and conquering/killing everyone in sight,
> till they're beaten down back to Earth, whereupon they reinvent
> their technology and come out and do it again....
There is also Edmond Hamilton 's _The Haunted Stars_ (1960) (http://
www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?452591), which explores similar themes.
Cryptoengineer
May 9, 2013, 8:47:01 AM5/9/13
to
On May 8, 11:12 pm, David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, 8 May 2013 06:25:05 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> In article <MMGroE.1...@kithrup.com>, djhe...@kithrup.com says...
> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, 8 May 2013 06:25:05 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> In article <km6vih$hn...@dont-email.me>,
> >>> lal_truckee <lal_truc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
> >>>> irritating than Jordan's.
>
> >>> Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>
> >> Four, counting the Koran and the Book of Mormon.
>
> > Sharecropper work, and there are problems with the continuity;
> > but, of course, that's true of the first anthology volume.
> > And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
> > before the Sun exists -
>
> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
> >>>> This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
> >>>> irritating than Jordan's.
>
> >>> Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>
> >> Four, counting the Koran and the Book of Mormon.
>
> > Sharecropper work, and there are problems with the continuity;
> > but, of course, that's true of the first anthology volume.
> > And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
> > before the Sun exists -
>
> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
it comes from.
A. Levi could have used an editor; the events at the start of the
first book are recounted a few pages in, but there are continuity
problems; the accounts don't gibe. Not to mention blatant the
plagiarism in the nautical episode.
pt
David DeLaney
May 9, 2013, 11:57:31 AM5/9/13
to
Cryptoengineer <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 8, 11:12�pm, David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
>> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> > And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
>> > before the Sun exists -
>>
>> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
>> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
>> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
>
>That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
>sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
>have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
>it comes from.
The non-redshifted microwave background, of course.
>On May 8, 11:12�pm, David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
>> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> > And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
>> > before the Sun exists -
>>
>> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
>> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
>> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
>
>That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
>sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
>have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
>it comes from.
Dave, and they DESPERATELY need to put out a companion soundtrack CD
Cryptoengineer
May 9, 2013, 1:03:48 PM5/9/13
to
On May 9, 11:12 am, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
CMB observed by COBE and WMAP is too low, and distributed in too fine
a pattern, to create night and day. Clearly, the author did not do his
research.
pt
> Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 8, 11:12 pm, David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
> >> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >> > And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
> >> > before the Sun exists -
>
> >> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
> >> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
> >> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
>
> >That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
> >sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
> >have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
> >it comes from.
>
> The non-redshifted microwave background, of course.
Multiple 'days' require nights to separate them. The anisotropy in the
> >On May 8, 11:12 pm, David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
> >> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> >> > And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
> >> > before the Sun exists -
>
> >> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
> >> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
> >> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
>
> >That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
> >sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
> >have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
> >it comes from.
>
> The non-redshifted microwave background, of course.
CMB observed by COBE and WMAP is too low, and distributed in too fine
a pattern, to create night and day. Clearly, the author did not do his
research.
pt
Robert Carnegie
May 9, 2013, 6:14:56 PM5/9/13
to
On Thursday, 9 May 2013 18:03:48 UTC+1, Cryptoengineer wrote:
> On May 9, 11:12 am, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>
> > Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >On May 8, 11:12 pm, David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
>
> > >> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > >> > [The bible considered as a fixup of semi-literate moans]
> On May 9, 11:12 am, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>
> > Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >On May 8, 11:12 pm, David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
>
> > >> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > >> > And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
> > >> > before the Sun exists -
> > >>
> > >> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
> > >> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
> > >> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
> > >
> > >That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
> > >sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
> > >have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
> > >it comes from.
> >
> > The non-redshifted microwave background, of course.
>
> Multiple 'days' require nights to separate them. The anisotropy in the
> CMB observed by COBE and WMAP is too low, and distributed in too fine
> a pattern, to create night and day. Clearly, the author did not do his
> research.
Of course I was just about to say exactly that. :-)
> > >> > before the Sun exists -
> > >>
> > >> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
> > >> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
> > >> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
> > >
> > >That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
> > >sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
> > >have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
> > >it comes from.
> >
> > The non-redshifted microwave background, of course.
>
> Multiple 'days' require nights to separate them. The anisotropy in the
> CMB observed by COBE and WMAP is too low, and distributed in too fine
> a pattern, to create night and day. Clearly, the author did not do his
> research.
David DeLaney
May 9, 2013, 7:42:31 PM5/9/13
to
released in the great Flood; clearly they washed away any such irregularities,
leaving it almost microscopically smooth.
Dave, it's all in Plato, _all_ in Plato
Walter Bushell
May 9, 2013, 10:25:47 PM5/9/13
to
In article <MPG.2bf3abbb5...@news.newsguy.com>,
> > >extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from
> > >spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity
> > >extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species
> > >will evolve.
> > >>
> > >Varley's eight worlds fits, featuring a sloppy protector allowing a few
> > >vermin humans to persist.
> > >
> > >> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish
> > >humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose
> > >and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but
Stop or I will have to tell the joke about Jonestown, which do not
exist, because the punchlines were too long.
--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> wrote:
> In article <MMGro...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
> >
> > In article <km6vih$hn4$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In article <MMGro...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com says...
> >
> > In article <km6vih$hn4$1...@dont-email.me>,
> > lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >On 5/5/13 12:26 PM, Al Lal wrote:
> > >> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to
> > >read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative
> > >opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my
> > >feelings.
> > >>
> > >> For example:
> > >>
> > >> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all
> > >life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order
> > >to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing
> > >read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative
> > >opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my
> > >feelings.
> > >>
> > >> For example:
> > >>
> > >> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all
> > >life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order
> > >extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from
> > >spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity
> > >extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species
> > >will evolve.
> > >>
> > >Varley's eight worlds fits, featuring a sloppy protector allowing a few
> > >vermin humans to persist.
> > >
> > >> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish
> > >humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose
> > >and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but
> > >unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to
> > >make humanity suffer.
> > >>
> > >make humanity suffer.
> > >>
> > >This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
> > >irritating than Jordan's.
> >
> > Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>
> Four, counting the Koran and the Book of Mormon.
What you left out Joe Smith? And the Bab? Mary Baker Eddy?
> > >irritating than Jordan's.
> >
> > Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>
> Four, counting the Koran and the Book of Mormon.
Stop or I will have to tell the joke about Jonestown, which do not
exist, because the punchlines were too long.
--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
David Johnston
May 10, 2013, 12:15:46 AM5/10/13
to
On 5/9/2013 6:47 AM, Cryptoengineer wrote:
> On May 8, 11:12 pm, David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
>> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, 8 May 2013 06:25:05 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> In article <MMGroE.1...@kithrup.com>, djhe...@kithrup.com says...
>>>>> In article <km6vih$hn...@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> lal_truckee <lal_truc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
>>>>>> irritating than Jordan's.
>>
>>>>> Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>>
>>>> Four, counting the Koran and the Book of Mormon.
>>
>>> Sharecropper work, and there are problems with the continuity;
>>> but, of course, that's true of the first anthology volume.
>>> And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
>>> before the Sun exists -
>>
>> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
>> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
>> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
>
> That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
> sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
> have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
> it comes from.
>
Could be coming from more remote galaxies not distinguishable as stars
> On May 8, 11:12 pm, David Johnston <davidjohnsto...@block.com> wrote:
>> On 5/8/2013 5:38 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, 8 May 2013 06:25:05 UTC+1, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> In article <MMGroE.1...@kithrup.com>, djhe...@kithrup.com says...
>>>>> In article <km6vih$hn...@dont-email.me>,
>>>>> lal_truckee <lal_truc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> This is Satan from the Bible Series, which series fans are even more
>>>>>> irritating than Jordan's.
>>
>>>>> Yeah, but at least it only went to two volumes!!!
>>
>>>> Four, counting the Koran and the Book of Mormon.
>>
>>> Sharecropper work, and there are problems with the continuity;
>>> but, of course, that's true of the first anthology volume.
>>> And it's full of science howlers, such as day and night happening
>>> before the Sun exists -
>>
>> Assuming that you had a rogue planet in interstellar space, spinning of
>> course as it goes, wouldn't a "day" be the time that it takes the
>> starfield to seem to rotate around to the same position?
>
> That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
> sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
> have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
> it comes from.
>
by the eye. Or of course an initial exploding singularity.
Phil Turner
May 13, 2013, 4:40:14 PM5/13/13
to
In <slrnkooa8...@gatekeeper.vic.com> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>On Thursday, 9 May 2013 18:03:48 UTC+1, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>> On May 9, 11:12�am, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>> > Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
>>> > >sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
>>> > >have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
>>> > >it comes from.
>>> >
>>> > The non-redshifted microwave background, of course.
>>>
>>> Multiple 'days' require nights to separate them. The anisotropy in the
>>> CMB observed by COBE and WMAP is too low, and distributed in too fine
>>> a pattern, to create night and day. Clearly, the author did not do his
>>> research.
>>
>>Of course I was just about to say exactly that. :-)
>Well, NOW it is. But this was BEFORE the waters above the firmament were
>released in the great Flood; clearly they washed away any such irregularities,
>leaving it almost microscopically smooth.
Plus, of course, the laws of physics were rewritten after the great Flood to
>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>>On Thursday, 9 May 2013 18:03:48 UTC+1, Cryptoengineer wrote:
>>> On May 9, 11:12�am, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>> > Cryptoengineer <petert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > >That would work, but Abe has the first book's protagonist turn on the
>>> > >sun and the stars at the same time; 4 "days" after the start. He does
>>> > >have 'light' appear earlier, but with no explanation as to where the
>>> > >it comes from.
>>> >
>>> > The non-redshifted microwave background, of course.
>>>
>>> Multiple 'days' require nights to separate them. The anisotropy in the
>>> CMB observed by COBE and WMAP is too low, and distributed in too fine
>>> a pattern, to create night and day. Clearly, the author did not do his
>>> research.
>>
>>Of course I was just about to say exactly that. :-)
>Well, NOW it is. But this was BEFORE the waters above the firmament were
>released in the great Flood; clearly they washed away any such irregularities,
>leaving it almost microscopically smooth.
allow rainbows to happen.
Stephen Allcroft
May 14, 2013, 9:24:18 AM5/14/13
to
On 13 May, 21:40, Phil Turner <phil.tur...@bltuaeyontdetr.co.uk>
wrote:
> In <slrnkooa8v.ccc....@gatekeeper.vic.com> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
> >Dave, it's all in Plato, _all_ in Plato- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Anything written form the PoV of a Dalek is obvious anti-human SF.
Agent Smith's "You are a virus' speech from the Matrix, In books the
title story in Iain M Banks the State of The Art.(Spoler Alert!) ...
Even the liberal to a fault, empathtic Culture; who cope with such
congenitally badly behaved people as the Affront, decide not to bother
with us here on Earth. On the grounds of our absolutely chaotic nature
and precocious ways with fission-fusion bombs, IIRR
wrote:
> In <slrnkooa8v.ccc....@gatekeeper.vic.com> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) writes:
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Anything written form the PoV of a Dalek is obvious anti-human SF.
Agent Smith's "You are a virus' speech from the Matrix, In books the
title story in Iain M Banks the State of The Art.(Spoler Alert!) ...
Even the liberal to a fault, empathtic Culture; who cope with such
congenitally badly behaved people as the Affront, decide not to bother
with us here on Earth. On the grounds of our absolutely chaotic nature
and precocious ways with fission-fusion bombs, IIRR
Lynn McGuire
May 14, 2013, 5:27:30 PM5/14/13
to
book #5, _A Method for Madness_. It was quite
good and unnerving. I have no idea where it
is now but Amazon says 2014:
http://www.amazon.com/Method-Madness-David-Gerrold/dp/0765340380/
You can read previews of chapters 2, 3, 5, 6,
8, 9 and 11 (from 2003!) at:
http://radio-weblogs.com/0103807/stories/2003/06/23/welcomeBackDavidGerroldAndChaptersFromAMethodForMadness.html
Lynn
Lynn
Moriarty
May 14, 2013, 6:14:01 PM5/14/13
to
On May 14, 11:24 pm, Stephen Allcroft <stephenallcr...@lycos.co.uk>
wrote:
<snip>
> Anything written form the PoV of a Dalek is obvious anti-human SF.
> Agent Smith's "You are a virus' speech from the Matrix, In books the
> title story in Iain M Banks the State of The Art.(Spoler Alert!) ...
>
> Even the liberal to a fault, empathtic Culture; who cope with such
> congenitally badly behaved people as the Affront, decide not to bother
> with us here on Earth. On the grounds of our absolutely chaotic nature
> and precocious ways with fission-fusion bombs, IIRR
That's not at all how I remember "State of the Art". Special
Circumstances knew that with all there meddling and interfering, there
was always a chance that they were getting it wrong, and that *long-
term* things would be better off if they stopped sticking their noses
in other people's business. So every so often they'd come across a
civilisation ripe for interference and they'd leave it alone as a sort
of control.
They were arrogant bastards who thought they were right, but SotA
establishes that they weren't quite so arrogant as to consider
themselves infallible.
-Moriarty
wrote:
<snip>
> Anything written form the PoV of a Dalek is obvious anti-human SF.
> Agent Smith's "You are a virus' speech from the Matrix, In books the
> title story in Iain M Banks the State of The Art.(Spoler Alert!) ...
>
> Even the liberal to a fault, empathtic Culture; who cope with such
> congenitally badly behaved people as the Affront, decide not to bother
> with us here on Earth. On the grounds of our absolutely chaotic nature
> and precocious ways with fission-fusion bombs, IIRR
Circumstances knew that with all there meddling and interfering, there
was always a chance that they were getting it wrong, and that *long-
term* things would be better off if they stopped sticking their noses
in other people's business. So every so often they'd come across a
civilisation ripe for interference and they'd leave it alone as a sort
of control.
They were arrogant bastards who thought they were right, but SotA
establishes that they weren't quite so arrogant as to consider
themselves infallible.
-Moriarty
Tim McDaniel
May 20, 2013, 5:20:59 PM5/20/13
to
In article <MMGrq...@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>I was just going to say.
>>
>> "All right, take away our star -- You will if you can and I guess you
>> can. Go ahead! We'll *make* a star! Then, someday, we'll come back
>> and hunt you down-all of you!"
>
>"Perhaps you will."
The reaction should have been, "Thank you very much for your polite
warning. We feel compelled, then, to take strong measures immediately."
for each BODY in list Earth Moon Mars ... (Sol-orbiting inhabited craft) ...
shatter BODY with kaboom producing rubble.
tilt Sol.
When he got home, that loudmouthed arrogant brat should have been
flayed alive on the spot for aggravated treason against humanity.
That ending ALWAYS infuriates me.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>I was just going to say.
>>
>> "All right, take away our star -- You will if you can and I guess you
>> can. Go ahead! We'll *make* a star! Then, someday, we'll come back
>> and hunt you down-all of you!"
>
>"Perhaps you will."
The reaction should have been, "Thank you very much for your polite
warning. We feel compelled, then, to take strong measures immediately."
for each BODY in list Earth Moon Mars ... (Sol-orbiting inhabited craft) ...
shatter BODY with kaboom producing rubble.
tilt Sol.
When he got home, that loudmouthed arrogant brat should have been
flayed alive on the spot for aggravated treason against humanity.
That ending ALWAYS infuriates me.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Robert Carnegie
May 20, 2013, 5:54:51 PM5/20/13
to
Evil Overlord List thing.
Or maybe it's an alien ethics, let your enemy live long
to appreciate their defeat, thing.
Tim McDaniel
May 21, 2013, 3:58:35 PM5/21/13
to
In article <02f89316-947a-4cf4...@googlegroups.com>,
Good point. Some more or less related entries from
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
4. Shooting is *not* too good for my enemies.
6. I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them.
11. I will be secure in my superiority. Therefore, I will feel no need
to prove it by leaving clues in the form of riddles or leaving my
weaker enemies alive to show they pose no threat.
13. All slain enemies will be cremated, or at least have several
rounds of ammunition emptied into them, not left for dead at the
bottom of the cliff. The announcement of their deaths, as well as any
accompanying celebration, will be deferred until after the
aforementioned disposal.
14. The hero is not entitled to a last kiss, a last cigarette, or any
other form of last request.
38. If an enemy I have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring
anywhere, I will find them and have them killed immediately, instead
of waiting for them to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards
me in my old age.
40. I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an
unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as
possible instead of keeping it in reserve.
53. If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry
you! Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well" and kill
her.
103. I will make it clear that I *do* know the meaning of the word
"mercy"; I simply choose not show them any.
(_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as
members of my organization, ...
like, say, "KSP" visible under ultraviolet light.)
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
4. Shooting is *not* too good for my enemies.
6. I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them.
11. I will be secure in my superiority. Therefore, I will feel no need
to prove it by leaving clues in the form of riddles or leaving my
weaker enemies alive to show they pose no threat.
13. All slain enemies will be cremated, or at least have several
rounds of ammunition emptied into them, not left for dead at the
bottom of the cliff. The announcement of their deaths, as well as any
accompanying celebration, will be deferred until after the
aforementioned disposal.
14. The hero is not entitled to a last kiss, a last cigarette, or any
other form of last request.
38. If an enemy I have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring
anywhere, I will find them and have them killed immediately, instead
of waiting for them to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards
me in my old age.
40. I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an
unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as
possible instead of keeping it in reserve.
53. If the beautiful princess that I capture says "I'll never marry
you! Never, do you hear me, NEVER!!!", I will say "Oh well" and kill
her.
103. I will make it clear that I *do* know the meaning of the word
"mercy"; I simply choose not show them any.
(_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as
members of my organization, ...
like, say, "KSP" visible under ultraviolet light.)
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Lynn McGuire
May 21, 2013, 4:11:54 PM5/21/13
to
On 5/5/2013 2:26 PM, Al Lal wrote:
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>
> For example:
>
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
>
> I am bored with living on this planet with humans. I would like to read some SF that negatively portrays humanity. I have a negative opinion of humanity, and believe that there must be others who share my feelings.
>
> For example:
>
> 1. An Alien arrives on Earth, who is the guardian protector of all life in the universe. His purpose is to make extinct humanity, in order to stop humanity from destroying Earth's environment, and causing extinctions of valued species - and also to prevent humanity from spreading like a cancer throughout the universe. By making humanity extinct, other species will be able to grow and prosper, and new species will evolve.
>
> 2. God sends a servant of his known as the punisher, to punish humanity for its sins. He is born in human form, with secret purpose and knowledge. He gains influence in the world through his wisdom, but unknown to the people and their leaders he works with, his goal is to make humanity suffer.
>
>
> I am no professional writer and know my ideas are not very good. If somebody has any ideas or examples of anti-human-SF, please let me know.
>
>
>
> Abhinav Lal
> Creator & Rebel
The _Old Man's War_ series by John Scalzi
fits case #1.
http://www.amazon.com/Old-Mans-War-John-Scalzi/dp/0765348276/
The _Marsbound_ series by Joe Haldeman fits
case #1.
http://www.amazon.com/Marsbound-Joe-Haldeman/dp/0441017398/
Lynn
David DeLaney
May 22, 2013, 4:07:23 AM5/22/13
to
On 2013-05-21, Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as
> members of my organization, ...
> like, say, "KSP" visible under ultraviolet light.)
So does Harry Potter.
> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as
> members of my organization, ...
> like, say, "KSP" visible under ultraviolet light.)
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://panacea.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
David Johnston
May 22, 2013, 12:18:42 PM5/22/13
to
On 5/22/2013 2:07 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2013-05-21, Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
>> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as
>> members of my organization, ...
>> like, say, "KSP" visible under ultraviolet light.)
>
> So does Harry Potter.
>
In Harry Potter the tattoos disappeared and reappeared at the will of
> On 2013-05-21, Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
>> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them as
>> members of my organization, ...
>> like, say, "KSP" visible under ultraviolet light.)
>
> So does Harry Potter.
>
the Evil Overlord and I don't think the other side had any method for
detecting an unactivated mark.
Greg Goss
May 22, 2013, 10:48:03 PM5/22/13
to
legionaire and temporarily a Neanderthal) were presented to an
intergalactic council to determine if we were a hazard to
civilization. The standard punishment for dangerous species was to
shunt either their planet or their sun (I forget which) into another
dimension, leaving the dangerous critters to freeze in the dark.
The viewpoint character's speech was declaring that the standard
punishment for finding us dangerous would not be sufficient. Tim is
not finding the story alien council's response (respect and
mentorship) to be plausible.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
May 23, 2013, 9:45:03 AM5/23/13
to
contending that Kip's angry response put the entire human race in MORE
danger. Which is a reasonable attitude.
Me, I look at the situation as "the Council knew perfectly well they
were looking at two very young people and random examples plucked from
deep time. So they ignored angry outbursts and focused on the actual
situation," and "Kip thought it was basically hopeless and reacted
angrily as young men often do, figuring that if they were all doomed
he'd at least go out being angry rather than despairing."
Not sensible, no, but perfectly human reactions... and the result
showing that the Council was not nearly as out of touch as some parts
might have implied. They did not, in fact, judge humanity on the angry
words of a boy, or on the violent reaction of a Roman soldier.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Tim McDaniel
May 23, 2013, 12:09:30 PM5/23/13
to
In re _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ by Heinlein.
In article <knl69a$235$1...@dont-email.me>,
dimension, without a sun.
>Or rather, regardless of whether the response itself is plausible,
>he's contending that Kip's angry response put the entire human race
>in MORE danger. Which is a reasonable attitude.
In particular, a species judged just before had responded with a
massive wave of deep hatred and other negative emotions, as well as
violent threats, and had gotten the "freeze in the dark" treatment.
"Similar causes produce similar effects" is, I think, a concept that
many animals understand, much less supposedly intelligent humans.
Furthermore, the two modern humans who spoke responded with threats,
and the one who didn't cheered one who did. Three for three is not a
statistical universe, but I would think it worrisome.
Have most of us here seen a "humanity on trial" story? I suspect many
of us have, and can reply with the standard reply of "We've had our
Hitlers but we've had our Raoul Wallenbergs too, and we're getting
better". I suppose I should be minimally grateful to Heinlein for not
going that tired route (perhaps not yet tired when he wrote it, tho).
I dimly recall a quotation from a story (Ted Sturgeon?) of human-alien
contact, along the lines of "We bowed humbly before them (carefully
placing ourselves so they couldn't see the knives we had tucked in our
belts), begged for crumbs from their tables (so we could extrapolate
the location of their kitchen), ..." They might have a "truth
reading" technology, so doing that might be worse than Kip's reply,
but I could truthfully reply with the "we're getting better" defence.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
In article <knl69a$235$1...@dont-email.me>,
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 5/22/13 10:48 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
>> The standard punishment for dangerous species was to shunt either
>> their planet or their sun (I forget which) into another dimension,
>> leaving the dangerous critters to freeze in the dark.
I believe it was tilting their planet 90 degrees into a fourth spacial
>On 5/22/13 10:48 PM, Greg Goss wrote:
>> The standard punishment for dangerous species was to shunt either
>> their planet or their sun (I forget which) into another dimension,
>> leaving the dangerous critters to freeze in the dark.
dimension, without a sun.
>Or rather, regardless of whether the response itself is plausible,
>he's contending that Kip's angry response put the entire human race
>in MORE danger. Which is a reasonable attitude.
massive wave of deep hatred and other negative emotions, as well as
violent threats, and had gotten the "freeze in the dark" treatment.
"Similar causes produce similar effects" is, I think, a concept that
many animals understand, much less supposedly intelligent humans.
Furthermore, the two modern humans who spoke responded with threats,
and the one who didn't cheered one who did. Three for three is not a
statistical universe, but I would think it worrisome.
Have most of us here seen a "humanity on trial" story? I suspect many
of us have, and can reply with the standard reply of "We've had our
Hitlers but we've had our Raoul Wallenbergs too, and we're getting
better". I suppose I should be minimally grateful to Heinlein for not
going that tired route (perhaps not yet tired when he wrote it, tho).
I dimly recall a quotation from a story (Ted Sturgeon?) of human-alien
contact, along the lines of "We bowed humbly before them (carefully
placing ourselves so they couldn't see the knives we had tucked in our
belts), begged for crumbs from their tables (so we could extrapolate
the location of their kitchen), ..." They might have a "truth
reading" technology, so doing that might be worse than Kip's reply,
but I could truthfully reply with the "we're getting better" defence.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Greg Goss
May 23, 2013, 7:12:50 PM5/23/13
to
tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>I dimly recall a quotation from a story (Ted Sturgeon?) of human-alien
>contact, along the lines of "We bowed humbly before them (carefully
>placing ourselves so they couldn't see the knives we had tucked in our
>belts), begged for crumbs from their tables (so we could extrapolate
>the location of their kitchen), ..." They might have a "truth
>reading" technology, so doing that might be worse than Kip's reply,
>but I could truthfully reply with the "we're getting better" defence.
I dimly remember a short story about a person who was picked up by
>I dimly recall a quotation from a story (Ted Sturgeon?) of human-alien
>contact, along the lines of "We bowed humbly before them (carefully
>placing ourselves so they couldn't see the knives we had tucked in our
>belts), begged for crumbs from their tables (so we could extrapolate
>the location of their kitchen), ..." They might have a "truth
>reading" technology, so doing that might be worse than Kip's reply,
>but I could truthfully reply with the "we're getting better" defence.
aliens from a roadway on some colony world, but the aliens didn't know
it was just a colony. Once he realized that the aliens had a perfect
lie detector device, he started responding with carefully phrased
misdirections until the terrified aliens groveled and set him free.
Something by Anderson?
Dorothy J Heydt
May 23, 2013, 7:49:10 PM5/23/13
to
In article <b07m3b...@mid.individual.net>,
Nope. Randall Garrett, in an hommage to Eric Frank Russell.
Hold on a minute while I find the title....
"The Best Policy," in Astounding, July 1957, as by "David Gordon."
It's in _The Best of Randall Garrett_ ed. Robert Silverberg.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Hold on a minute while I find the title....
"The Best Policy," in Astounding, July 1957, as by "David Gordon."
It's in _The Best of Randall Garrett_ ed. Robert Silverberg.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
David Goldfarb
May 24, 2013, 12:59:33 AM5/24/13
to
In article <Mn9zH...@kithrup.com>,
--
David Goldfarb |"Thanks for the Dadaist pep talk. I feel
goldf...@gmail.com | much more abstract now."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <b07m3b...@mid.individual.net>,
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>I dimly remember a short story about a person who was picked up by
>>aliens from a roadway on some colony world, but the aliens didn't know
>>it was just a colony. Once he realized that the aliens had a perfect
>>lie detector device, he started responding with carefully phrased
>>misdirections until the terrified aliens groveled and set him free.
>>
>>Something by Anderson?
>
>Nope. Randall Garrett, in an hommage to Eric Frank Russell.
>Hold on a minute while I find the title....
>
>"The Best Policy," in Astounding, July 1957, as by "David Gordon."
>
>It's in _The Best of Randall Garrett_ ed. Robert Silverberg.
Also in _Takeoff!_.
>Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:
>>I dimly remember a short story about a person who was picked up by
>>aliens from a roadway on some colony world, but the aliens didn't know
>>it was just a colony. Once he realized that the aliens had a perfect
>>lie detector device, he started responding with carefully phrased
>>misdirections until the terrified aliens groveled and set him free.
>>
>>Something by Anderson?
>
>Nope. Randall Garrett, in an hommage to Eric Frank Russell.
>Hold on a minute while I find the title....
>
>"The Best Policy," in Astounding, July 1957, as by "David Gordon."
>
>It's in _The Best of Randall Garrett_ ed. Robert Silverberg.
--
David Goldfarb |"Thanks for the Dadaist pep talk. I feel
goldf...@gmail.com | much more abstract now."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Buffy the Vampire Slayer
digit...@mi.rr.com
May 26, 2013, 10:48:37 AM5/26/13
to
Perhaps the most anti-human novel that features SFnal elements is 'We Monks and Soldiers' by Antione Volvodine. The human race is described to be in 'terminal decline.'
The Wanderer
May 27, 2013, 6:50:15 AM5/27/13
to
On 05/22/2013 12:18 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 5/22/2013 2:07 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
>
>> On 2013-05-21, Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
>>> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them
>>> as members of my organization, ... like, say, "KSP" visible under
>>> ultraviolet light.)
>>
>> So does Harry Potter.
>
> In Harry Potter the tattoos disappeared and reappeared at the will of
> the Evil Overlord
Er, no, they didn't - at least not unless I've missed something (and
> On 5/22/2013 2:07 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
>
>> On 2013-05-21, Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
>>> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them
>>> as members of my organization, ... like, say, "KSP" visible under
>>> ultraviolet light.)
>>
>> So does Harry Potter.
>
> In Harry Potter the tattoos disappeared and reappeared at the will of
> the Evil Overlord
somehow the body of fanfic-writing fandom has managed to miss the same
thing).
They were greatly faded (but still visible and recognizable) for the
first few books, because the Overlord in question had been outwardly
dead for some years, but they came back to full strength and visibility
when he came back to life and called on them again; they never faded
otherwise AFAIK.
> and I don't think the other side had any method for detecting an
> unactivated mark.
to be true; I was just contemplating some of the angles of that the
other day.
The flip side is that the mark was always in the same place, and it
would have been easy to check for it at e.g. security checkpoints; it
appears to have been mainly societal pressures and taboos that kept this
from being done, at least on an official level.
--
The Wanderer
Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.
Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny.
David DeLaney
May 27, 2013, 5:39:10 PM5/27/13
to
On 2013-05-27, The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> The flip side is that the mark was always in the same place, and it
> would have been easy to check for it at e.g. security checkpoints; it
> appears to have been mainly societal pressures and taboos that kept this
> from being done, at least on an official level.
Well, that and the INCREDIBLE level of obliviousness and lack of common sense
> The flip side is that the mark was always in the same place, and it
> would have been easy to check for it at e.g. security checkpoints; it
> appears to have been mainly societal pressures and taboos that kept this
> from being done, at least on an official level.
on the part of most adult wizards; one can easily imagine that nobody in the
magical government of Britain (which after all was quite a small collection
of people) ever THOUGHT of that, even. Various fanfics deconstruct this in
different ways...
David Goldfarb
May 28, 2013, 2:33:06 AM5/28/13
to
In article <fvCdnSGjrJX6pz7M...@giganews.com>,
in that fanfic Voldemort is intelligent.
--
David Goldfarb |"THEY ZONKED ME WITH ELECTRONIC SHOCK WAVES,
goldf...@gmail.com | I TELL YOU!!!"
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- _Prez_ #2
The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>On 05/22/2013 12:18 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> On 5/22/2013 2:07 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
> >
>>> On 2013-05-21, Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>
>>>> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
>>>> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them
>>>> as members of my organization, ... like, say, "KSP" visible under
>>>> ultraviolet light.)
>>>
>>> So does Harry Potter.
>>
>> In Harry Potter the tattoos disappeared and reappeared at the will of
>> the Evil Overlord
>
>Er, no, they didn't - at least not unless I've missed something (and
>somehow the body of fanfic-writing fandom has managed to miss the same
>thing).
They did in _Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality_, because
>On 05/22/2013 12:18 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> On 5/22/2013 2:07 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
> >
>>> On 2013-05-21, Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
> >>
>>>> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
>>>> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them
>>>> as members of my organization, ... like, say, "KSP" visible under
>>>> ultraviolet light.)
>>>
>>> So does Harry Potter.
>>
>> In Harry Potter the tattoos disappeared and reappeared at the will of
>> the Evil Overlord
>
>Er, no, they didn't - at least not unless I've missed something (and
>somehow the body of fanfic-writing fandom has managed to miss the same
>thing).
in that fanfic Voldemort is intelligent.
--
David Goldfarb |"THEY ZONKED ME WITH ELECTRONIC SHOCK WAVES,
goldf...@gmail.com | I TELL YOU!!!"
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- _Prez_ #2
David Johnston
May 28, 2013, 1:18:07 PM5/28/13
to
On 5/28/2013 12:33 AM, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <fvCdnSGjrJX6pz7M...@giganews.com>,
> The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> On 05/22/2013 12:18 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/22/2013 2:07 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2013-05-21, Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
>>>>> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them
>>>>> as members of my organization, ... like, say, "KSP" visible under
>>>>> ultraviolet light.)
>>>>
>>>> So does Harry Potter.
>>>
>>> In Harry Potter the tattoos disappeared and reappeared at the will of
>>> the Evil Overlord
>>
>> Er, no, they didn't - at least not unless I've missed something (and
>> somehow the body of fanfic-writing fandom has managed to miss the same
>> thing).
>
> They did in _Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality_, because
> in that fanfic Voldemort is intelligent.
>
I remember it as "the mark disappeared entirely when Voldemort was gone
> In article <fvCdnSGjrJX6pz7M...@giganews.com>,
> The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> On 05/22/2013 12:18 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>
>>> On 5/22/2013 2:07 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2013-05-21, Tim McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> (_Foundation_ shows the wisdom of
>>>>> 104. My undercover agents will not have tattoos identifying them
>>>>> as members of my organization, ... like, say, "KSP" visible under
>>>>> ultraviolet light.)
>>>>
>>>> So does Harry Potter.
>>>
>>> In Harry Potter the tattoos disappeared and reappeared at the will of
>>> the Evil Overlord
>>
>> Er, no, they didn't - at least not unless I've missed something (and
>> somehow the body of fanfic-writing fandom has managed to miss the same
>> thing).
>
> They did in _Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality_, because
> in that fanfic Voldemort is intelligent.
>
letting them go undercover and deny their allegiance but reappeared once
he returned, giving his former followers no choice but to return to his
side". Or maybe that's just my mind rewriting the actuality.
ppint. at pplay
May 29, 2013, 5:59:44 PM5/29/13
to
- hi; in article, <13679...@sheol.org>,
thr...@sheol.org "Wayne Throop" entertained:
>
>The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody
>in their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
>sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
>collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
- or, that the danger from humanity must constantly be
monitored, and action taken to prevent their ever rising
again... charles harness' _The Ring of Ritornel_, colin
kapp's _The Dark Mind_ (merkin aka _Transfinite Man_) and
perhaps his second novel, _The Patterns of Chaos_, to some
extent.
>[]
>and then there's the "When Mars Attacks" implications in Stranger
>in a Strange Land, what with Valentine Michael Smith giving
>humanity the wherewithall to resist the earth being blowed up good
>[]
- didn't he say this danger was greatly over-inflated?
- other fun variations upon this and allied themes include
"Big Ancestor" by f.l. wallace iirc (galaxy? i read it in
a groff conklin, coronet-p/bed children's sf anthology)
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"No creature without tentacles had ever developed true intelligence."
- "Hunting Problem" Robert Sheckley
thr...@sheol.org "Wayne Throop" entertained:
>
>The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody
>in their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
>sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
>collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
- or, that the danger from humanity must constantly be
monitored, and action taken to prevent their ever rising
again... charles harness' _The Ring of Ritornel_, colin
kapp's _The Dark Mind_ (merkin aka _Transfinite Man_) and
perhaps his second novel, _The Patterns of Chaos_, to some
extent.
>[]
>and then there's the "When Mars Attacks" implications in Stranger
>in a Strange Land, what with Valentine Michael Smith giving
>humanity the wherewithall to resist the earth being blowed up good
>[]
- didn't he say this danger was greatly over-inflated?
- other fun variations upon this and allied themes include
"Big Ancestor" by f.l. wallace iirc (galaxy? i read it in
a groff conklin, coronet-p/bed children's sf anthology)
- love, ppint.
[drop the "v", and change the "f" to a "g", to email or cc.]
--
"No creature without tentacles had ever developed true intelligence."
- "Hunting Problem" Robert Sheckley
Dan Goodman
May 29, 2013, 9:01:18 PM5/29/13
to
On Wed, 29 May 2013 22:59:44 +0100, ppint. at pplay wrote:
> - hi; in article, <13679...@sheol.org>,
> thr...@sheol.org "Wayne Throop" entertained:
>>
>>The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody in
>>their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
>>sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
>>collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
Fredric Brown, "Letter to a Phoenix," 1949 is the earliest use I've
> - hi; in article, <13679...@sheol.org>,
> thr...@sheol.org "Wayne Throop" entertained:
>>
>>The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody in
>>their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
>>sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
>>collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
read. Note: All other intelligent species reach their peak and die off.
> - or, that the danger from humanity must constantly be monitored,
and
> action taken to prevent their ever rising again... charles
harness'
> _The Ring of Ritornel_, colin kapp's _The Dark Mind_ (merkin aka
> _Transfinite Man_) and perhaps his second novel, _The Patterns of
> Chaos_, to some extent.
>>and then there's the "When Mars Attacks" implications in Stranger in a
>>Strange Land, what with Valentine Michael Smith giving humanity the
>>wherewithall to resist the earth being blowed up good []
>
> - didn't he say this danger was greatly over-inflated?
>
> - other fun variations upon this and allied themes include "Big
> Ancestor" by f.l. wallace iirc (galaxy? i read it in a groff
conklin,
> coronet-p/bed children's sf anthology)
I wouldn't say it shows us as evil, exactly -- no more evil than rats.
--
Dan Goodman
Gene Wirchenko
May 29, 2013, 11:17:41 PM5/29/13
to
On Mon, 27 May 2013 16:39:10 -0500, David DeLaney
<davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On 2013-05-27, The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> The flip side is that the mark was always in the same place, and it
>> would have been easy to check for it at e.g. security checkpoints; it
>> appears to have been mainly societal pressures and taboos that kept this
>> from being done, at least on an official level.
>
>Well, that and the INCREDIBLE level of obliviousness and lack of common sense
>on the part of most adult wizards; one can easily imagine that nobody in the
>magical government of Britain (which after all was quite a small collection
>of people) ever THOUGHT of that, even. Various fanfics deconstruct this in
>different ways...
There is also "Wizard School" at http://www.meetmyminion.com/
<davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On 2013-05-27, The Wanderer <wand...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> The flip side is that the mark was always in the same place, and it
>> would have been easy to check for it at e.g. security checkpoints; it
>> appears to have been mainly societal pressures and taboos that kept this
>> from being done, at least on an official level.
>
>Well, that and the INCREDIBLE level of obliviousness and lack of common sense
>on the part of most adult wizards; one can easily imagine that nobody in the
>magical government of Britain (which after all was quite a small collection
>of people) ever THOUGHT of that, even. Various fanfics deconstruct this in
>different ways...
which is an wonderful dark mirror. It is not a fanfic as such.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Brian M. Scott
May 30, 2013, 12:43:35 AM5/30/13
to
On Wed, 29 May 2013 22:59:44 +0100 bst, ""ppint. at pplay""
<v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote in
<news:20130529.215...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> - hi; in article, <13679...@sheol.org>,
> thr...@sheol.org "Wayne Throop" entertained:
>>
>>The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody
>>in their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
>>sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
>>collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
> - or, that the danger from humanity must constantly be
> monitored, and action taken to prevent their ever rising
> again... charles harness' _The Ring of Ritornel_,
I wonder if anyone had used the Terror pun before that;
quite likely, but the only other one that comes to mind is
Tubb, who used it later. I don’t remember much more than
that, though.
> colin
> kapp's _The Dark Mind_ (merkin aka _Transfinite Man_)
Nederlands _Dalroi en de Zwarte Ridders_. Some ten or
fifteen years ago I used the Dutch translation as bedtime
reading, setting myself the challenge of reading it without
any recourse to a dictionary. (I read Dutch mostly on the
basis of German, English, and general linguistic knowledge
and feel, so this really was a bit of a challenge.) Managed
it, and even enjoyed the novel, though sometimes I didn’t
get a sufficiently useful context for a word until several
pages after I first encountered it, so I did do a little
backtracking. I’m pretty sure that I’d read it in English
in the 60s, but I certainly didn’t remember it.
> and
> perhaps his second novel, _The Patterns of Chaos_, to some
> extent.
That one was good fun.
Now for some reason you’ve reminded me of Ian Wallace
(_Croyd_, _Dr. Orpheus_, _Pan Sagittarius_, etc.), though as
I recall he’s more Van Vogt with a touch of Cabell, where
Kapp’s Dalroi has more than a bit in common with Gully
Foyle.
[...]
Brian
<v$af$pp...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> wrote in
<news:20130529.215...@i-m-t.demon.co.uk> in
rec.arts.sf.written:
> - hi; in article, <13679...@sheol.org>,
> thr...@sheol.org "Wayne Throop" entertained:
>>
>>The notion that humans will progress, destroy themselves and anybody
>>in their way (and their way encompasses much...), only to rise again,
>>sometimes with the meme that humans are unique in that. That the
>>collapses are the only way they don't disappear from the universe.
> - or, that the danger from humanity must constantly be
> monitored, and action taken to prevent their ever rising
> again... charles harness' _The Ring of Ritornel_,
quite likely, but the only other one that comes to mind is
Tubb, who used it later. I don’t remember much more than
that, though.
> colin
> kapp's _The Dark Mind_ (merkin aka _Transfinite Man_)
fifteen years ago I used the Dutch translation as bedtime
reading, setting myself the challenge of reading it without
any recourse to a dictionary. (I read Dutch mostly on the
basis of German, English, and general linguistic knowledge
and feel, so this really was a bit of a challenge.) Managed
it, and even enjoyed the novel, though sometimes I didn’t
get a sufficiently useful context for a word until several
pages after I first encountered it, so I did do a little
backtracking. I’m pretty sure that I’d read it in English
in the 60s, but I certainly didn’t remember it.
> and
> perhaps his second novel, _The Patterns of Chaos_, to some
> extent.
Now for some reason you’ve reminded me of Ian Wallace
(_Croyd_, _Dr. Orpheus_, _Pan Sagittarius_, etc.), though as
I recall he’s more Van Vogt with a touch of Cabell, where
Kapp’s Dalroi has more than a bit in common with Gully
Foyle.
[...]
Brian
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