Humanity gets conquered.
Nathan Leahy
Flint on the basis of the snippets I read on Baen's Bar, which I
really enjoyed. Basic plot outline is that humanity gets conquered by
the Jao, who as alien overlords go are not too bad. The Jao
recognisably think alienly and humans are not regaining independance
any time soon. What other books have this combination of believable
aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
just one race of sepoys among many? (Do not mention the awful
Pandora's Legion) I thought Dread Empire's Fall : The Praxis was quite
good ass well
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, I'm very fond of Williams's Drake Maijstral stories, in
which the Khosali conquered humanity a fair few generations back
and integrated them into the Empire. There were advantages and
disadvantages to this. Humans being humans, however, they have
recently rebelled (say, two generations ago) and both sides are
still feeling repercussions. Now a young human who is rightfully a
Duke and a Prince-Bishop, but whose revenue-generating lands have
all been confiscated, has taken up the trade of Licensed Burglar.
There are three of these novels so far, and I wish he would write
more.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
H. E. Taylor
When Heaven Fell by William Barton.
There was also The Alien Years by SilverBob, but it is
not militaristic.
<selah>
-het
--
"The truth is that all we are is a story. At the centre
of things, there is a story." -Thomas King, Massey lectures 2003
PV FAQ: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/pv_faq.html
H.E. Taylor http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/
John A Fairhurst
<h...@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> wrote:
> There was also The Alien Years by SilverBob, but it is
> not militaristic.
Not on the aliens' side anyway...
I liked the incomprehensible actions of the aliens (not so sure about
the sheer inability of humanity to seriously do anything, though).
--
John A Fairhurst
For Classic Science Fiction & Fantasy:
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk
John A Fairhurst
Leahy) wrote:
>What other books have this combination of believable
>aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
>either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
>just one race of sepoys among many?
Unfortunately, I can't really recommend Andre Norton's Star Soldiers
under this, as Humanity isn't really a conquered race (as far as I
tell, we got Out There under our own power) but the rest of the Galaxy
is already occupied and Humanity's only role is to act as mercenaries
to Central Control (though apparently there are plans afoot to, uh,
modify various roles).
Alan Dean Foster's "The Damned" series also doesn't quite qualify as
Humanity is used as the Shock Troops of the Federation, but we aren't
occupied
Adam Canning
jo...@johnsbooks.co.uk says...
David Drake's Ranks of Bronze Universe?
--
Adam
David Tate
> What other books have this combination of believable
> aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
> either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
> just one race of sepoys among many?
Well, there's William Tenn's classic short "The Men in the Walls", and
its expanded version OF MEN AND MONSTERS.
The classic YA version of this is John Christopher's "Tripods"
trilogy:
THE WHITE MOUNTAINS
THE CITY OF GOLD AND LEAD
THE POOL OF FIRE
Niven and Pournelle's FOOTFALL features humanity conquered by
intelligent heffalumps from Alpha Centauri. The alienness of the
Snouts is a matter of some debate.
Other examples depend on your definition of 'conquered'. Roger
Zelazny's THIS IMMORTAL (aka AND CALL ME CONRAD) features humanity not
so much conquered as marginalized into a backwater by a much more
advanced interstellar civilization.
Avram Davidson's THE KAR-CHEE REIGN is set on an all-but-abandoned
Earth where the few remaining humans are reduced to the level of
vermin, essentially beneath notice to the occupying aliens. ROGUE
DRAGON may be set on the same world.
David Tate
Hallvard B Furuseth
> What other books have this combination of believable
> aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
I haven't read it, but I think Anne McCaffrey's _Freedom's Landing_
is one.
Some of the 'Man-Kzin Wars' stories in Larry Niven's Known Space
universe happen on human worlds conquered by the kzinti. Earth is not
conquered, though.
There is a short story by Vernor Vinge (I think) where some weird
anarchic aliens dominate Earth. They haven't exactly conquered us, but
close enough.
Humans are a very minor people in Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_.
--
Hallvard
Molly Moloney
news:<9732afb9.03112...@posting.google.com>...
> What other books have this combination of believable
> aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
> either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they
are
> just one race of sepoys among many?
Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis books, starting with _Dawn_, definitely
fits this description. It's got one of my favorite explorations of
the alienness of aliens. The whole trilogy is available now in an
omnibus edition called (IIRC) _Lilith's Brood_.
--
Molly Moloney
http://moloney.blogspot.com
lal_truckee
> There are three of these novels so far, and I wish he would write
> more.
Me too! Me too! Me too! Me too!
You listening, Jon?
lal_truckee
> On 27 Nov 2003 13:30:58 -0800, pretendi...@yahoo.com (Nathan
> Leahy) wrote:
>
>
>>What other books have this combination of believable
>>aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
>>either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
>>just one race of sepoys among many?
>
>
> Unfortunately, I can't really recommend Andre Norton's Star Soldiers
> under this, as Humanity isn't really a conquered race (as far as I
> tell, we got Out There under our own power) but the rest of the Galaxy
> is already occupied and Humanity's only role is to act as mercenaries
> to Central Control (though apparently there are plans afoot to, uh,
> modify various roles).
Star Guard has humanity forced into roles by alien superiors/conquerers
- the denoument enlists the protagonist in the coming human revolt.
[That "Grace Knife" business sure impacted me when I was a wee tyke.]
Dorothy J Heydt
Oh, probably he is. Though IIRC he said that to write one
Maijstral novel is about three times as hard as to write one
ordinary work in his usual genre, so maybe he's not going to for
a while.
Jeff Walther
pretendi...@yahoo.com (Nathan Leahy) wrote:
> What other books have this combination of believable
> aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
> either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
> just one race of sepoys among many?
William Barton's "When Heaven Fell".
--
A friend will help you move. A real friend will help you move a body.
Keith Morrison
>>> What other books have this combination of believable aliens who are
>>> not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race, either
>>> recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are just
>>> one race of sepoys among many?
>>
>> Unfortunately, I can't really recommend Andre Norton's Star Soldiers
>> under this, as Humanity isn't really a conquered race (as far as I
>> tell, we got Out There under our own power) but the rest of the Galaxy
>> is already occupied and Humanity's only role is to act as mercenaries
>> to Central Control (though apparently there are plans afoot to, uh,
>> modify various roles).
>
> Star Guard has humanity forced into roles by alien superiors/conquerers
> - the denoument enlists the protagonist in the coming human revolt.
>
> [That "Grace Knife" business sure impacted me when I was a wee tyke.]
Chalker's Quintara trilogy featured space divided amongst three
main empires, none of which were controlled by humans. Humans,
in fact, had gone into space right on the mutual borders and had
ended up divided between the three, one of the few species to do
so.
--
Keith
lal_truckee
> In article <bq8odr$1v9d87$1...@ID-90251.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>
>>>There are three of these novels so far, and I wish he would write
>>>more.
>>
>>Me too! Me too! Me too! Me too!
>>You listening, Jon?
>
>
> Oh, probably he is. Though IIRC he said that to write one
> Maijstral novel is about three times as hard as to write one
> ordinary work in his usual genre, so maybe he's not going to for
> a while.
You don't suppose that three times as hard has anything to do with the
results being three times as interesting, do you? Naw - couldn't be.
Kathy
> > aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
> > either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
> > just one race of sepoys among many?
>
>
"Way of the Pilgrim" by Gordon R Dickson has humanity conquered by aliens
and forcing them back off the planet. Its actually a very well written book
and avoids the usual global-warfare syndrome.
Kathy
John A Fairhurst
<da...@dahak.free-online.co.uk> wrote:
>David Drake's Ranks of Bronze Universe?
Look interesting from reviews, but I've not actually picked any up.
Yet.
John A Fairhurst
<kat...@NOSPAM.ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>"Way of the Pilgrim" by Gordon R Dickson has humanity conquered by aliens
>and forcing them back off the planet. Its actually a very well written book
>and avoids the usual global-warfare syndrome.
John Varley's _The Op[h]iuchi Hotline_ opens [iirc] with Humanity
having been kicked off Earth by an as yet unseen alien race with as
yet unknown desires.
Hallvard B Furuseth
> John Varley's _The Op[h]iuchi Hotline_ opens [iirc] with Humanity
> having been kicked off Earth by an as yet unseen alien race with as
> yet unknown desires.
_Steel Beach_, _The Persistence of Vision_ and _Blue Champagne_ are in
the same universe. I have only read TOH and SB, but I think the
conquering aliens stay off-stage in the entire series.
--
Hallvard
Del Cotter
lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> said:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>There are three of these novels so far, and I wish he would write
>>>>more.
>>>You listening, Jon?
>> Oh, probably he is. Though IIRC he said that to write one
>> Maijstral novel is about three times as hard as to write one
>> ordinary work in his usual genre, so maybe he's not going to for
>> a while.
>
>You don't suppose that three times as hard has anything to do with the
>results being three times as interesting, do you? Naw - couldn't be.
But, sad to say, they're probably not three times as remunerative.
--
Del Cotter
Thanks to the overwhelming volume of UBE, I am now rejecting *all* email
sent to d...@branta.demon.co.uk. Please send your email to del2 instead.
James Nicoll
"Blue Champagne", the title story of _Blue Champagne_, is set
in the universe of "Bagatelle", not in the Eight Worlds. I think of
the stories in the collection only "Lollipop and the Tar Baby" is 8W.
James Nicoll
--
It's amazing how the waterdrops form: a ball of water with an air bubble
inside it and inside of that one more bubble of water. It looks so beautiful
[...]. I realized something: the world is interesting for the man who can
be surprised. -Valentin Lebedev-
Michael Grosberg
> What other books have this combination of believable
> aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
> either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
> just one race of sepoys among many?
It doesn't quite qualify but Alexander Jablokov's _Deepdrive_:
A dozen different alien races arrive in the solar system, taking
residence on different planets. Mostly they ignore humans, although
one race lands on earth and uses humans as (hard to explain) part of
its breeding process.
The aliens are mostly incomprehensible and very weird. And they hold
the secret of the Deepdrive - an interstellar drive - which they are
unwilling to share with humans.
Jerry Brown
<h.b.furuseth(nospam)@usit.uio(nospam).no> wrote:
>Humans are a very minor people in Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_.
I read that a couple of months back and it struck me that the Zones of
Thought were consistent with Star Trek - Outside the Galaxy ==
God-like powers (as in 'Where No Man Has Gone Before'), At the Core ==
abject stupidity (as in 'Star Trek 5').
BTW, I finished 'A Deepness in the Sky' last night and I enjoyed that
far more.
Jerry Brown
--
A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
William December Starr
Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth(nospam)@usit.uio(nospam).no> said:
> There is a short story by Vernor Vinge (I think) where some weird
> anarchic aliens dominate Earth. They haven't exactly conquered us,
> but close enough.
"Conquest by Default," I believe it is.
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Tapio Erola
> In article <HBF.2003...@bombur.uio.no>,
> Hallvard B Furuseth <h.b.furuseth(nospam)@usit.uio(nospam).no> said:
>
> > There is a short story by Vernor Vinge (I think) where some weird
> > anarchic aliens dominate Earth. They haven't exactly conquered us,
> > but close enough.
>
> "Conquest by Default," I believe it is.
Easiest to find on _The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge_.
ObVinge: I want more _Zones of Thought_, especially stories located
on High Beyond. Strangeness, intelligence and mind-computer
interface...
--
Tapio Erola (t...@tols17.oulu.fi, no mail to rak061.oulu.fi please!)
"What is the point of life if it ends in death?"
--John de Rivaz
Hallvard B Furuseth
> What other books have this combination of believable
> aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
In James Kahn's _World Enough, and Time_, _Time's Dark Laughter_ and
what's the third book?, Earth has been taken over by creatures that
were genetically engineered by humans for fun. Intelligent animals,
centaurs, vampires (blood-drinking but not infective), and more.
Some humans are still around, but are mostly held in low regard.
Tor Åge Bringsværd's _Ker Shus_ also features an Earth taken over by our
creatures, but I don't know if it has been translated to English.
--
Hallvard
Kevin D
"Hallvard B Furuseth" <h.b.furuseth(nospam)@usit.uio(nospam).no> wrote in
message news:HBF.200...@bombur.uio.no...
Hi,
I was checking out your group and couldn't resist putting in my 2 cents
worth.
I remember a story from 25 or so years ago by James Tiptree, Jr. (a.k.a.
Racoona Sheldon, and that still is not the author's real name) about aliens
who moved in and made the Earth into a farming world. They were so much more
advanced that humans were ignored. The planet was seeded with giant food
plants which grew everywhere and displaced the native biology entirely. The
few survivors were reduced to eating and burrowing through the plants like
so many weevils. They lived hopeless lives, waiting for the day when the
"farmer" decided to either fumigate the crop or harvest.
I was cutting my adolescent teeth on Heinlein at the time, and found the
story quite a depressing departure from the confidently anthrocentric
fiction of RAH, but the image of man reduced to a crop pest has persisted.
Kevin
David Cowie
>
>
> Hi,
> I was checking out your group and couldn't resist putting in my 2 cents
> worth.
> I remember a story from 25 or so years ago by James Tiptree, Jr. (a.k.a.
> Racoona Sheldon, and that still is not the author's real name) about aliens
> who moved in and made the Earth into a farming world. They were so much more
> advanced that humans were ignored. The planet was seeded with giant food
> plants which grew everywhere and displaced the native biology entirely. The
> few survivors were reduced to eating and burrowing through the plants like
> so many weevils. They lived hopeless lives, waiting for the day when the
> "farmer" decided to either fumigate the crop or harvest.
>
That sounds exactly like the novel _The Genocides_ by Thomas M Disch.
I feel quite confident in that assertion, because I read it a couple of
weeks ago.
You might be thinking of Sheldon's story "The Screwfly Solution" in which
aliens cause men to be hostile to women, rather as human scientists try to
make crop pests find each other sexually uninteresting.
--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net
Containment Failure + 385:16
r.r...@thevine.net
wrote:
Actually, the aliens specifically messed with whatever mediates the
fine line between sexual and aggressive behaviour. So, sexual
encounters would turn violent, regardless of the sexes involved. At
one point the narrator is walking by a body of a young man at a
bathroom, and thinks something along the lines of "it's not just women
who were the victims".
Rebecca
Damien Sullivan
>any time soon. What other books have this combination of believable
>aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
>either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
>just one race of sepoys among many? (Do not mention the awful
Not a book, but the computer game Star Control 2, maybe. Humanity conquered
by the Ur-Quan. Alien? Non-standard motivations, though understandable ones.
-xx- Damien X-)
Esa Perkio
: Not a book, but the computer game Star Control 2, maybe. Humanity conquered
: by the Ur-Quan. Alien? Non-standard motivations, though understandable ones.
I _really_ don't want to start a flamewar, but I can't help seeing a scary
resemblance between the Path of Now and Forever and the idea of conquering
faraway countries so that they will never ever possibly become threats.
Just substitute total economic dominance for slave shields and
permanent military bases for Battle Thralldom...
More on-topic: C.S. Friedman's 'The Madness Season' (also recently
mentioned in the space vampires thread) features mankind ruled on several
worlds by an alien hivemind. A key factor in the subjugation was the
crushing proof that while FTL travel was possible, you had to be a
galaxy-spanning FTL-telepathic hivemind to use it.
--
Esa Perkiö
Walter Jon Williams
$Ew...@branta.demon.co.uk:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, in rec.arts.sf.written,
> lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> said:
>
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>There are three of these novels so far, and I wish he would write
>>>>>more. You listening, Jon?
Miraculously enough, I am.
I'm always happy to hear from a few of the twenty or so people who read
the Maijstral books. You are the elite of the elite, as far as I'm
concerned.
The problem with the Maijstral books wasn't that they were hard to write
(they weren't), but that, as indicated above, nobody bought them.
Unfortunately no publishers want more books in an unsuccessful series,
so I won't be able to write any sequels unless and until I can afford to
write a book for all twenty or thirty of you.
So if you actually want more Maijstral books, either you can all agree
to pay me a couple thousand bucks apiece for the book (half in advance,
please), or you can just buy lots and lots and lots of copies of the
books I've currently got in print, so that publishers will be so
desperate to have my work that they'll bring even the flops back into
print.
The choice, my friends, is up to you.
Konrad Gaertner
Some of aliens were pretty alien: the Sylandro and Orz for example
(and the OP didn't say the conquerer had to be truly alien). Even
if the aliens were somewhat one-dimensional, it's still impressive
to see 25 different species, each with a unique personality (and
the best dialogue I've ever seen in a game).
For anyone who has never played this game before, the open-source
port can be found here:
http://sc2.sourceforge.net/index.html
--KG
Dana Blackwell
probably afford it!
--
Dana
J.B. Moreno
> Miraculously enough, I am.
>
> I'm always happy to hear from a few of the twenty or so people who read
> the Maijstral books. You are the elite of the elite, as far as I'm
> concerned.
>
> The problem with the Maijstral books wasn't that they were hard to write
> (they weren't), but that, as indicated above, nobody bought them.
>
> Unfortunately no publishers want more books in an unsuccessful series,
> so I won't be able to write any sequels unless and until I can afford to
> write a book for all twenty or thirty of you.
>
> So if you actually want more Maijstral books, either you can all agree
> to pay me a couple thousand bucks apiece for the book (half in advance,
> please), or you can just buy lots and lots and lots of copies of the
> books I've currently got in print, so that publishers will be so
> desperate to have my work that they'll bring even the flops back into
> print.
>
> The choice, my friends, is up to you.
If you (and they) are willing to do so, ebooks make the first option
possibl -- escrow advance orders. I don't have links on hand, but I
know it's been done before -- maybe not for as much as you'd like to
get, but it'd be at least something to consider.
--
JBM
"Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg
Esa Perkio
: Some of aliens were pretty alien: the Sylandro and Orz for example
Especially the Orz. Talking to them felt like having a discussion with a
Cthulhoid deity translated by an eight-year old child on ecstasy.
--
Esa Perkiö
Gary R. Schmidt
all of your other books in paperback, and SWMBO won't let us buy them
again in hardcover?!?!?!
Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Armful of chairs: Something some people would not know
whether you were up them with or not
- Barry Humphries
wth...@godzilla5.acpub.duke.edu
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:36:30 -0800, "H. E. Taylor"
> <h...@despam.autobahn.mb.ca> wrote:
>
> > There was also The Alien Years by SilverBob, but it is
> > not militaristic.
>
> Not on the aliens' side anyway...
>
> I liked the incomprehensible actions of the aliens (not so sure about
> the sheer inability of humanity to seriously do anything, though).
That had a lot to do with why I liked it. We were not
conquered by interstellar travelers with technology
only 20 years or so ahead of ours. Or by idiots.
Our rulers in Dickson's "The Way of the Pilgrim" are
also too advanced for any conceivable rebellion, as
are those who occupy earth in Varley's "Eight Worlds"
books, though as far as I can recall we never see those.
William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University
A. Craig West
> Make that thirty-one. If we get another 969 people, then we could
> probably afford it!
> Walter Jon Williams wrote:
>> So if you actually want more Maijstral books, either you can all agree
>> to pay me a couple thousand bucks apiece for the book (half in
>> advance, please), or you can just buy lots and lots and lots of
>> copies of the books I've currently got in print, so that publishers
>> will be so desperate to have my work that they'll bring even the
>> flops back into print.
>>
>> The choice, my friends, is up to you.
Thirty two, at least... Although he might have counted me already...
--
Craig West Ph: (416) 666-1645 | It's not a bug,
acwes...@craigwest.net | It's a feature...
John Schilling
>Del Cotter <d...@branta.demon.co.uk> wrote in news:bq38y3Kn$Gy
>$Ew...@branta.demon.co.uk:
>> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, in rec.arts.sf.written,
>> lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> said:
>>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>>>>There are three of these novels so far, and I wish he would write
>>>>>>more. You listening, Jon?
>Miraculously enough, I am.
>I'm always happy to hear from a few of the twenty or so people who read
>the Maijstral books. You are the elite of the elite, as far as I'm
>concerned.
Twenty-one. And my brother still hasn't returned the ones I "loaned"
him, so I think that makes twenty-two.
>The problem with the Maijstral books wasn't that they were hard to write
>(they weren't), but that, as indicated above, nobody bought them.
They didn't seem like the sort of thing that would be hard to write, but
such impressions can be deceptive. Your word is, of course, final on
that matter.
Next one you write, I'll buy in hardcover or trade paper, whichever comes
first, and I'll make my brother buy his own damn copy. Then I'll by a mass
market to loan out to the *next* potential convert.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Walter Jon Williams
news:hp0zb.3591$xm.1...@nasal.pacific.net.au:
> But what do we do if we are one of the twenty or so, have already
> bought all of your other books in paperback, and SWMBO won't let us buy
> them again in hardcover?!?!?!
>
Well, obviously SWMBO needs a good thrashing.
I suppose you could always resort to ebay or used book dealers for the
hardbacks. =I= wouldn't make any money, but your bookshelves would be a lot
prettier.
Tim McDaniel
>agree to pay me a couple thousand bucks apiece for the book (half in
>advance, please)
OK. Please sign me up.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com; tm...@us.ibm.com is my work address
Doug Palmer
> What other books have this combination of believable aliens who are not
> humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race, either recently or as
> a part of a star spanning Empire where they are just one race of sepoys
> among many?
If you can get hold of it, Terry Dowling's "Wormwood" is well worth a
read. Incomprehensible Nobodoi overlords who came, conquered, rearranged
things and left. Leaving a bunch of vassal "bridge races" to keep things
ticking over. The book is essentially a set of short stories exploring
humans coming to terms (in various ways) with their new position in the
scheme of things.
Does Disch's "The Genocides" count?
--
Doug Palmer http://www.charvolant.org/~doug do...@charvolant.org
David Cowie
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:30:58 -0800, Nathan Leahy wrote:
>
>> What other books have this combination of believable aliens who are not
>> humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race, either recently or as
>> a part of a star spanning Empire where they are just one race of sepoys
>> among many?
>
<snippage>
> Does Disch's "The Genocides" count?
Not really.
1) We never meet the aliens, but we do sometimes see their machines.
2) Earth isn't conquered, it gets turned into a monoculture plantation,
and we get turned into vermin to be exterminated. No playing around in
star-spanning empires here.
--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net
Containment Failure + 459:50
John M. Gamble
David Cowie <see...@lineone.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 21:53:51 +1100, Doug Palmer wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 13:30:58 -0800, Nathan Leahy wrote:
>>
>>> What other books have this combination of believable aliens who are not
>>> humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race, either recently or as
>>> a part of a star spanning Empire where they are just one race of sepoys
>>> among many?
>>
><snippage>
>> Does Disch's "The Genocides" count?
>
>Not really.
>1) We never meet the aliens, but we do sometimes see their machines.
>2) Earth isn't conquered, it gets turned into a monoculture plantation,
>and we get turned into vermin to be exterminated. No playing around in
>star-spanning empires here.
>
Likewise Rob Chilson's *Men Like Rats.*
--
-john
February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.
Phillip Thorne
>> What other books have this combination of believable
>> aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, "Molly Moloney" <moll...@cox.net> supplied:
>Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis books, starting with _Dawn_, definitely
>fits this description. It's got one of my favorite explorations of
>the alienness of aliens. [...]
For those who haven't read it, and without spoiling too much:
The Oankili are a nomadic race, master bioengineers (it's a natural
trait), driven to periodically transform themselves by gene-exchange
with other races. They arrive in Sol system just as humanity is
having a nasty nuclear war, and adopt the survivors -- on the
Oankili's terms.
So far as they're concerned, H.sapiens' mix of intelligence and
hierarchical behavior is a recipe for repeated disaster, and they're
morally compelled to fix it. This involves grafting Oankili traits
onto human biology and culture. The human characters, understandably,
aren't particularly grateful (but they're *stuck* with it, as Earth
will be consumed to create the next generation of living worldships).
The Oankili's physical appearance doesn't help -- even in the humanoid
form they dug up from genetic memory, they're eyeless and covered with
grey, wormlike tendrils.
By the end of the trilogy, Butler had managed to convince me that a
marriage consisting of five people with three sexes made more sense
than our standard two/two. I said as much when I met her at Balticon,
a few years ago. She liked my pen illustration -- I hadn't viscerally
*felt* how alien they were until I did it.
/- Phillip Thorne ----------- The Non-Sequitur Express --------------------\
| org underbase ta thorne www.underbase.org It's the boundary |
| net comcast ta pethorne site, newsletter, blog conditions that |
\------------------------------------------------------- get you ----------/
Phillip Thorne
>[...] What other books have this combination of believable
>aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
In David Gerrold's "War with the Chtorr" books, a really nasty alien
ecosystem starts to colonize Earth. The critters aren't obviously
intelligent, but they're ravenous and tough to kill.
Ian Macdonald's short story "Recording Angel" (collected in
_Nanotech_, Gardner Dozois ed.) features another alien ecosystem,
which is slowly expanding its borders in Africa, and
assimilating/modifying the wildlife.
"Conquering alien ecosystem" and "conquering alien empire" describe
entirely different sets of stories, though.
John F. Carr
Phillip Thorne <tho...@underbase.org> wrote:
>Ian Macdonald's short story "Recording Angel" (collected in
>_Nanotech_, Gardner Dozois ed.) features another alien ecosystem,
>which is slowly expanding its borders in Africa, and
>assimilating/modifying the wildlife.
This sounds like it is part of the Chaga series, otherwise consisting
of _Chaga_ (US _Evolution's Shore_), _Tendeleo's Story_, and _Kirinya_.
Shortly after the opening of the first book we find earth being invaded
by an alien ecosystem that expands at a steady 50 meters per day in a
precise circle around the landing site of each seed. Half of the first
book is about the social problems caused by the refugees fleeing the
expanding wave of change, and the local and world governments' attempts
to deal with the refugee problem. The other half is about the changes
within the affected area, and the attempts to cope with or understand
the change.
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
C
<tho...@underbase.org> wrote:
>On 27 Nov 2003, pretendi...@yahoo.com (Nathan Leahy) asked:
>>[...] What other books have this combination of believable
>>aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
>>either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire [...]
>
>In David Gerrold's "War with the Chtorr" books, a really nasty alien
>ecosystem starts to colonize Earth. The critters aren't obviously
>intelligent, but they're ravenous and tough to kill.
Wasn't there a suggestion that the critters (or perhaps something
behind the critters) was intelligent?
Next question (and one probably asked every so often): Anybody have an
update on if another book is coming out?
Jordan179
> I've bullied my brother into buying me "Course of Empire" by Eric
> Flint on the basis of the snippets I read on Baen's Bar, which I
> really enjoyed. Basic plot outline is that humanity gets conquered by
> the Jao, who as alien overlords go are not too bad. The Jao
> recognisably think alienly and humans are not regaining independance
> any time soon.
One thing I liked about that book was that the Jao thought in a
slightly alien fashion, and humanity saw this as an insuperable
barrier to understanding until we met the _really_ alien race that the
Jao were fighting ... :)
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Tim Bruening
Nathan Leahy wrote:
> I've bullied my brother into buying me "Course of Empire" by Eric
> Flint on the basis of the snippets I read on Baen's Bar, which I
> really enjoyed. Basic plot outline is that humanity gets conquered by
> the Jao, who as alien overlords go are not too bad. The Jao
> recognisably think alienly and humans are not regaining independance
> any time soon. What other books have this combination of believable
> aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
> either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
> just one race of sepoys among many? (Do not mention the awful
> Pandora's Legion) I thought Dread Empire's Fall : The Praxis was quite
> good ass well
I once read a children's story in which Earth is ruled by aliens. The
aliens are not too bad, but other, really nasty aliens attack, forcing
humans and the 1st aliens to fight together.
Tim Bruening
John A Fairhurst wrote:
> On 27 Nov 2003 13:30:58 -0800, pretendi...@yahoo.com (Nathan
> Leahy) wrote:
>
> >What other books have this combination of believable
> >aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
> >either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
> >just one race of sepoys among many?
>
> Unfortunately, I can't really recommend Andre Norton's Star Soldiers
> under this, as Humanity isn't really a conquered race (as far as I
> tell, we got Out There under our own power) but the rest of the Galaxy
> is already occupied and Humanity's only role is to act as mercenaries
> to Central Control (though apparently there are plans afoot to, uh,
> modify various roles).
>
> Alan Dean Foster's "The Damned" series also doesn't quite qualify as
> Humanity is used as the Shock Troops of the Federation, but we aren't
> occupied
We get used as shock troops by the Weeve against the Amplitur, whose
"Purpose" is to unite all intelligent beings under their roof, by any
means necessary.
Tim Bruening
lal_truckee wrote:
> John A Fairhurst wrote:
>
> > On 27 Nov 2003 13:30:58 -0800, pretendi...@yahoo.com (Nathan
> > Leahy) wrote:
> >
> >
> >>What other books have this combination of believable
> >>aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
> >>either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
> >>just one race of sepoys among many?
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately, I can't really recommend Andre Norton's Star Soldiers
> > under this, as Humanity isn't really a conquered race (as far as I
> > tell, we got Out There under our own power) but the rest of the Galaxy
> > is already occupied and Humanity's only role is to act as mercenaries
> > to Central Control (though apparently there are plans afoot to, uh,
> > modify various roles).
>
> Star Guard has humanity forced into roles by alien superiors/conquerers
> - the denoument enlists the protagonist in the coming human revolt.
Triple Detante by Piers Anthony: An alien fleet has conquered Earth, but an
Earth fleet has conquered the alien homeworld! The aliens and humans have
drastically reduced the populations of Earth and the alien homeworld, and
each occupation government selects the best natives available to rule the
other planet. This results in good government.
Steve Coltrin
> On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 23:21:41 -0500, Phillip Thorne
> <tho...@underbase.org> wrote:
>
>>On 27 Nov 2003, pretendi...@yahoo.com (Nathan Leahy) asked:
>>>[...] What other books have this combination of believable
>>>aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
>>>either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire [...]
>>
>>In David Gerrold's "War with the Chtorr" books, a really nasty alien
>>ecosystem starts to colonize Earth. The critters aren't obviously
>>intelligent, but they're ravenous and tough to kill.
>
> Wasn't there a suggestion that the critters (or perhaps something
> behind the critters) was intelligent?
It seems pretty clear that the worms are at least ape-level intelligent.
I expect the actual intelligence will turn out to be <rot13>gur she gung
nal ynetr rabhtu Pugbeena unq, gung Qhxr nsgre uvf ynfg nppvqrag fhvpvqrq
engure guna yrg tebj, naq gung gur phygvfg yrnqre unq naq jnf pbaprnyvat.
</rot13>
Gerrold's web page says we'll see the next book Real Soon Now. I'm not
getting my blood pressure up until I have copy in hand.
--
Steve Coltrin spco...@omcl.org WWVBF?
Wal*Mart: Your source for cheap plastic crap imported from China!
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<donttr...@phonyaddress.net> wrote:
>Unfortunately no publishers want more books in an unsuccessful series,
>so I won't be able to write any sequels unless and until I can afford to
>write a book for all twenty or thirty of you.
Yeah. Same as for the Ethshar series.
>So if you actually want more Maijstral books, either you can all agree
>to pay me a couple thousand bucks apiece for the book (half in advance,
>please), or you can just buy lots and lots and lots of copies of the
>books I've currently got in print, so that publishers will be so
>desperate to have my work that they'll bring even the flops back into
>print.
>
>The choice, my friends, is up to you.
Go for it.
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
wrote on Tue, 2 Dec 2003 00:55:59 +0000 (UTC):
> Miraculously enough, I am.
> I'm always happy to hear from a few of the twenty or so people who read
> the Maijstral books. You are the elite of the elite, as far as I'm
> concerned.
I'm thinking it's an order of magnitude or two larger than that, but
probably no more.
> The problem with the Maijstral books wasn't that they were hard to write
> (they weren't), but that, as indicated above, nobody bought them.
> Unfortunately no publishers want more books in an unsuccessful series,
> so I won't be able to write any sequels unless and until I can afford to
> write a book for all twenty or thirty of you.
> So if you actually want more Maijstral books, either you can all agree
> to pay me a couple thousand bucks apiece for the book (half in advance,
> please), or you can just buy lots and lots and lots of copies of the
> books I've currently got in print, so that publishers will be so
> desperate to have my work that they'll bring even the flops back into
> print.
> The choice, my friends, is up to you.
I'd be willing to pay $100 for a new Maijstral in hardcover or trade
(and the rest if they were reissued in HC or trade at the same price),
but I doubt that price would endear them to the new readers they need.
Were they poorly marketed, or do most people just not like truly funny
science fiction?
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"I believe in communication. If I communicate with you every so often,
you'll be bothered by what I say enough that you won't ask me to, which
means more sleep for me." -Something Positive, 2003Sep22
Walter Jon Williams
>
> I'd be willing to pay $100 for a new Maijstral in hardcover or trade
> (and the rest if they were reissued in HC or trade at the same price),
> but I doubt that price would endear them to the new readers they need.
Good lad! Another five thousand of you and I'll print the damn thing
myself!
>
> Were they poorly marketed, or do most people just not like truly
> funny
> science fiction?
>
A combination of things. They came out as paperback originals when all the
important SF was appearing in hardback, so they didn't have any real
exposure. Also, I was supposed to be this hard-as-nails cyberpunk guy, and
a drawing-room comedy just confused people.
Also, drawing-room comedy appeals to a limited audience. You can't have a
comedy of manners in a society that has no manners of its own.
Tim McDaniel
Walter Jon Williams <donttr...@phonyaddress.net> wrote:
>> I'd be willing to pay $100 for a new Maijstral in hardcover or
>> trade
>
>myself!
Upthread, you mentioned "twenty or so" readers and "a couple of
thousand" each, so I thought your price was $40,000 or so. Now you're
upping it to $500,000? Jimminy!
lal_truckee
I'm reading some Anthony Villiers in a vain attempt to get my CoM fix,
but it's not working. I shall persevere, however.
Walter Jon Williams
> In article <Xns944C8C7CB9A55...@198.59.136.3>,
> Walter Jon Williams <donttr...@phonyaddress.net> wrote:
>>> I'd be willing to pay $100 for a new Maijstral in hardcover or trade
>>
>>Good lad! Another five thousand of you and I'll print the damn thing
>>myself!
>
> Upthread, you mentioned "twenty or so" readers and "a couple of
> thousand" each, so I thought your price was $40,000 or so. Now you're
> upping it to $500,000? Jimminy!
>
It seemed worthwhile =asking.= I always make a point of asking, since you
never know when someone might want to give me half a million bucks.
--Walter
David T. Bilek
>tm...@panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote in news:br5e10$bok$1...@reader2.panix.com:
>
>> In article <Xns944C8C7CB9A55...@198.59.136.3>,
>> Walter Jon Williams <donttr...@phonyaddress.net> wrote:
>>>> I'd be willing to pay $100 for a new Maijstral in hardcover or trade
>>>
>>>Good lad! Another five thousand of you and I'll print the damn thing
>>>myself!
>>
>> Upthread, you mentioned "twenty or so" readers and "a couple of
>> thousand" each, so I thought your price was $40,000 or so. Now you're
>> upping it to $500,000? Jimminy!
>>
>
>It seemed worthwhile =asking.= I always make a point of asking, since you
>never know when someone might want to give me half a million bucks.
>
If it matters, you and Daniel Moran top my list of "authors from whom
I will commission books once I win the multimillion dollar lottery".
Note: I do not buy lottery tickets so don't hold your breath.
-David
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Sure, but wish in one hand, crap in the other, and see which piles up
fastest. I'm certain that there are several hundred readers who would
pay $100 per volume for Maijstral, and for more Metropolitan books, for
that matter. Several thousand, likely not, but at least the several
hundred would put some beer money (a *lot* of beer, actually) in your
pocket and get the ball rolling for mass-marketing...
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"God, I think. God. He doesn't answer, and I'd be justifiably scared--but not
in a panic!--if he did, since I would know it really was Resuna, or a tiny
brain tumor, or some boo-boo in my mix of neurotransmitters." -John Barnes
Stewart Robert Hinsley
'Kamikaze' Hughes <kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> writes
>I'm certain that there are several hundred readers who would
>pay $100 per volume for Maijstral, and for more Metropolitan books, for
>that matter. Several thousand, likely not, but at least the several
>hundred would put some beer money (a *lot* of beer, actually) in your
>pocket and get the ball rolling for mass-marketing
Perhaps the way to do it is that the several hundred buy shares in a
publishing venture, subscribing sufficient capital to print several
thousand books. They can then receive their copies as a shareholder
perk, and the proceeds from the sale of remainder divided between them
and the author.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Konrad Gaertner
It'd be simpler to just take pre-orders (no refunds) for a
print-on-demand edition. That should be cheaper for the readers
without any additional risk for the author.
--KG
William December Starr
kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) said:
> I'd be willing to pay $100 for a new Maijstral in hardcover or
> trade (and the rest if they were reissued in HC or trade at the
> same price), but I doubt that price would endear them to the new
> readers they need.
>
> Were they poorly marketed, or do most people just not like truly
> funny science fiction?
Or, some (many?) people simply don't find humor of that particular
sort to be, well, funny. Me, for example.
I may be in the minority in this forum, but I'd really rather that
WJW spent his finite writing time on serious sf (_Hardwired_, _Voice
of the Whirlwind_, etc.) than on the Maijstral stuff.
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
John F. Carr
What you are suggesting would look a lot like a public stock offering
to the Securites and Exchange Commission. U.S. law does not like
companies to solicit investments. It takes paperwork, lawyers,
paperwork, accountants, and more paperwork before you are allowed to
let members of the public buy shares.
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
The Glorantha Trading Association <http://www.issaries.com/gta/> might
be a good model, too. They managed to get _HeroQuest_ (nee _Hero Wars_
nee _RuneQuest_) published, despite the desperate lack of initial
funding at Issaries.
David Allsopp
Carr <j...@mit.edu> writes
Really? Wow. When I set up my limited company in the UK, It cost me
£80, and I could sell shares to whomever I wanted. I have to send in a
list of the shareholders[1] and directors[2] every year, and likewise
submit accounts, but for a small company this is very little work. It's
only just worth paying the accountant to do it.
It does take a *lot* more work to get listed on one of the stock
exchange markets, even the less-regulated ones like AIM. I suspect that
the key difference is that shares in my company aren't publicly traded.
If you want to by some, you have to ask me. Anyone?
[1] Me, my SO and my mother.
[2] Me.
--
David Allsopp Houston, this is Tranquillity Base.
Remove SPAM to email me The Eagle has landed.
John F. Carr
David Allsopp <d...@tqSPAMbase.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <3fe05dd9$0$556$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>, John F.
>Carr <j...@mit.edu> writes
>>>Perhaps the way to do it is that the several hundred buy shares in a
>>>publishing venture, subscribing sufficient capital to print several
>>>thousand books. They can then receive their copies as a shareholder
>>>perk, and the proceeds from the sale of remainder divided between them
>>>and the author.
>>
>>What you are suggesting would look a lot like a public stock offering
>>to the Securites and Exchange Commission. U.S. law does not like
>>companies to solicit investments. It takes paperwork, lawyers,
>>paperwork, accountants, and more paperwork before you are allowed to
>>let members of the public buy shares.
>
>Really? Wow. When I set up my limited company in the UK, It cost me
>£80, and I could sell shares to whomever I wanted. I have to send in a
>list of the shareholders[1] and directors[2] every year, and likewise
>submit accounts, but for a small company this is very little work. It's
>only just worth paying the accountant to do it.
Your closely held company would be safe in the US. If you solicited
offers from the public, or possibly even to a large group, you would
need to register with the SEC. See <http://www.sec.gov/about/laws.shtml>.
>If you want to by some, you have to ask me. Anyone?
That statement, a public solicitation of offers, may violate US law.
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
David Allsopp
So is there a hard-and-fast definition of "public solicitation", and
does a joke in a newsgroup qualify? Or is this all a case law thing?
Come to that, is this relevant before the company is actually formed?
That is, is there a legal difference between a (possibly large) group of
people who decide to form a company, and an existing company asking lots
of people to buy its nice shares?
Walter Jon Williams
news:3FDF9080...@worldnet.att.net:
> It'd be simpler to just take pre-orders (no refunds) for a
> print-on-demand edition. That should be cheaper for the readers
> without any additional risk for the author.
>
Of course, I'd still have to figure out a way to maintain my cushy lifestyle
<ahem> while writing the thing, as advance subscriptions are likely to amount
to only a few grand at most.
I don't think PoD is there yet. You end up with a fairly nice $15 paperback
which is too expensive for stores to market to readers, so sales are going to
be very limited.
J.B. Moreno
> Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> news:3FDF9080...@worldnet.att.net:
>
>
> > It'd be simpler to just take pre-orders (no refunds) for a
> > print-on-demand edition. That should be cheaper for the readers
> > without any additional risk for the author.
> >
>
> Of course, I'd still have to figure out a way to maintain my cushy lifestyle
> <ahem> while writing the thing, as advance subscriptions are likely to amount
> to only a few grand at most.
As I said elsewhere (to you or someone else I forget), there's an
alternative: put it up for sale, but only if and when you get sufficient
buyers.
You can do it something like a PBS fund drive: you give a total that is
needed for you to write the book, put up a web page, let people put
money into an escrow account, if and when it reaches that amount, you
start to work. When it's done everyone that paid in gets a copy.
I can't recall names off hand, but this *has* been done successfully on
the internet (although perhaps not for the amount you'd be asking for).
--
JBM
"Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg
Bryan Derksen
Moreno) wrote:
>You can do it something like a PBS fund drive: you give a total that is
>needed for you to write the book, put up a web page, let people put
>money into an escrow account, if and when it reaches that amount, you
>start to work. When it's done everyone that paid in gets a copy.
A variation on this is the Street Performer Protocol, in which the
author sets a price and then once the price has been reached he places
the work into the public domain (or under some sort of open licence
that allows free copying). Turns the situation into a nice real-life
Prisoner's Dilemma. :)
>I can't recall names off hand, but this *has* been done successfully on
>the internet (although perhaps not for the amount you'd be asking for).
Stephen King tried doing something along these lines with "The Plant",
but kind of spoiled things - the readers had to pay up for each
installment of the book as he wrote it, and when part 6 failed to
reach the total income King wanted he dropped the experiment without
writing a conclusion.
J.B. Moreno
> pl...@newsreaders.com (J.B. Moreno) wrote:
>
> >You can do it something like a PBS fund drive: you give a total that is
> >needed for you to write the book, put up a web page, let people put
> >money into an escrow account, if and when it reaches that amount, you
> >start to work. When it's done everyone that paid in gets a copy.
>
> A variation on this is the Street Performer Protocol, in which the
> author sets a price and then once the price has been reached he places
> the work into the public domain (or under some sort of open licence
> that allows free copying). Turns the situation into a nice real-life
> Prisoner's Dilemma. :)
Yep. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing -- some people will view it as
a public good, and chip in more than just what they think it's worth for
their own enjoyment.
In a case like this, instead of offering to make it PD, one might offer
to put it up on a website like Baen's Free Library for a period of time:
you retains all rights, but it's freely available for a time.
(With Baen or any other publisher that is convinced ebooks are good for
paper sales, this wouldn't even negatively impact your advance).
David Tate
> Walter Jon Williams <donttr...@phonyaddress.net> wrote:
>
> > Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> > news:3FDF9080...@worldnet.att.net:
> > > It'd be simpler to just take pre-orders (no refunds) for a
> > > print-on-demand edition. That should be cheaper for the readers
> > > without any additional risk for the author.
> > Of course, I'd still have to figure out a way to maintain my cushy lifestyle
> > <ahem> while writing the thing, as advance subscriptions are
> > likely to amount to only a few grand at most.
>
> As I said elsewhere (to you or someone else I forget), there's an
> alternative: put it up for sale, but only if and when you get sufficient
> buyers.
How did the Vance Integral Edition handle this?
(I realize that they didn't have to actually *write* the books, but
they did do a lot of work with the texts, and they had the same need
for up-front funding.)
David Tate
Simon Slavin
David Allsopp <d...@tqSPAMbase.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Really? Wow. When I set up my limited company in the UK, It cost me
>£80, and I could sell shares to whomever I wanted. I have to send in a
>list of the shareholders[1] and directors[2] every year, and likewise
>submit accounts, but for a small company this is very little work. It's
>only just worth paying the accountant to do it.
If you want to sell shares to someone you don't know personally
then it becomes a great deal more work. You would need to publish
your accounts (and possibly a business plan) every year. You
would need to be far more careful about any statement you made
about the company or its prospects. And some other stuff.
You're okay so far because the shares are being traded only
between people who have connections not solely related to business.
Jim Cambias
pl...@newsreaders.com (J.B. Moreno) wrote:
Wasn't there a televangelist in the 1980s who worked that way? The
program would start with him just sitting there until the pledges reached
the right level, at which point he would start his sermon? I know I saw
this a couple of times.
Cambias
Mike Schilling
"Jim Cambias" <cam...@SPAHMTRAP.heliograph.com> wrote in message
news:cambias-2012...@diakelly.ppp.mtholyoke.edu...
>
> Wasn't there a televangelist in the 1980s who worked that way? The
> program would start with him just sitting there until the pledges reached
> the right level, at which point he would start his sermon? I know I saw
> this a couple of times.
Gene Scott? IIRC, this wasn't a daily occurrence, but he would do it on
occasion.
J.B. Moreno
> pl...@newsreaders.com (J.B. Moreno) wrote:
>
> > Bryan Derksen <bryan....@shaw-spamguard.ca> wrote:
-snip-
> > > A variation on this is the Street Performer Protocol, in which the
> > > author sets a price and then once the price has been reached he places
> > > the work into the public domain (or under some sort of open licence
> > > that allows free copying). Turns the situation into a nice real-life
> > > Prisoner's Dilemma. :)
> >
> > Yep. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing -- some people will view it as
> > a public good, and chip in more than just what they think it's worth for
> > their own enjoyment.
> >
> > In a case like this, instead of offering to make it PD, one might offer
> > to put it up on a website like Baen's Free Library for a period of time:
> > you retains all rights, but it's freely available for a time.
> >
> > (With Baen or any other publisher that is convinced ebooks are good for
> > paper sales, this wouldn't even negatively impact your advance).
>
> Wasn't there a televangelist in the 1980s who worked that way? The
> program would start with him just sitting there until the pledges reached
> the right level, at which point he would start his sermon? I know I saw
> this a couple of times.
I've never been one to watch the televanelist, so I couldn't say.
I wouldn't like to compare an author to one either -- OTOH, it just goes
to show that people are willing to pay in advance for the show.
Louann Miller
Moreno) wrote:
>> Wasn't there a televangelist in the 1980s who worked that way? The
>> program would start with him just sitting there until the pledges reached
>> the right level, at which point he would start his sermon? I know I saw
>> this a couple of times.
>
>I've never been one to watch the televanelist, so I couldn't say.
I think this was (is?) Dr. Gene Scott. Sometimes instead of just
sitting there, he'd show home movies of his Tennessee Walking Horses.
Walter Jon Williams
news:qa7Fb.557$7F....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com:
Hey, I like this! I like this a lot!
Okay, I'm going to sit here and do =nothing= until y'all pledge $50,000.
I'm . . . . WAITING . . . <tape foot impatiently>
Seriously, though, if I were going to do the subscription route, I'd
rather it be for the third Metropolitan book. The Maijstral series has
actually completed its arc, but the Metropolitan books got cut off two-
thirds of the way through.
Mike Schilling
"Walter Jon Williams" <donttr...@phonyaddress.net> wrote in message
news:Xns94588AA067997...@198.59.136.3...
> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:qa7Fb.557$7F....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com:
>
> >
> > "Jim Cambias" <cam...@SPAHMTRAP.heliograph.com> wrote in message
> > news:cambias-2012...@diakelly.ppp.mtholyoke.edu...
> >
> >>
> >> Wasn't there a televangelist in the 1980s who worked that way? The
> >> program would start with him just sitting there until the pledges
> >> reached the right level, at which point he would start his sermon? I
> >> know I saw this a couple of times.
> >
> > Gene Scott? IIRC, this wasn't a daily occurrence, but he would do it
> > on occasion.
> >
>
> Hey, I like this! I like this a lot!
>
> Okay, I'm going to sit here and do =nothing= until y'all pledge $50,000.
>
>
> I'm . . . . WAITING . . . <tape foot impatiently>
Well, if you're not going to proofread, you get 45K, tops.
Bill Snyder
How do you know he hasn't sprained it? Or maybe he's got musical
metatarsals -- this is rasfw, after all.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
Walter Jon Williams
$AG1...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com:
>
> Well, if you're not going to proofread, you get 45K, tops.
>
>
Trust me, you don't want me to do the proofreading.
John F. Carr
That brings up a problem that might be overlooked in the rush
to spend a lot of money on an unpopular book. The services
provided by a major publisher cost money if done by professionals.
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
Esa Perkio
: Seriously, though, if I were going to do the subscription route, I'd
: rather it be for the third Metropolitan book.
Just playing with the idea here... How much would you expect?
Consider a web page collecting, say, a minimum of 10$ per participant.
(Actual money, pledges don't work.) Once a certain sum has been reached,
the author is informed, a contract written and an advance paid. If the sum
is not reached within a set time, everyone involved gets their money back,
possibly minus transaction costs. If the author reneges, the service calls
for payment and then returns the money to the contributors, or sues the
author for breaking the contract, if necessary. (The naive and trusting
person that I am, I don't think authors famous enough for this system to
work would end up in court a lot.)
Once the book is ready, it's printed without blurbs or glitzy covers or
anything else extra and shipped to the contributors (plus a few reviewers
for future income), possibly collecting a shipping charge along the way.
(A good E-book format would really help this along.) After this the author
is free to sell the work to a normal publisher, if he or she so desires.
Could this work as a company? (Profit taken as a percentage of the money
or something.) Could the fan community make a trial case? I know _I'd_
pay for the 3rd Metropolitan... Is some magazine interested in a bizarre
expansion of its line of business? Would a publishing house step in when
it sees an author's reward rising to levels indicating the kind of sales
they'd like to get? Would all the individual mailings get way too
expensive when compared with sending books in bulk? (Amazon seems to work.
(Now.) Would they be interested?)
Then again, without first-edition royalties (do they get them anyway?),
would the author have an incentive to give his or her best? "Oh, I'll just
write one more to cash in, after all, the money is already in, so I won't
have to worry about sales." Think having say, one of the Ender sequels
inflicted on you...
I know very little about the publishing business but I'm interested to
hear why this wouldn't work. Somebody tell me, please? :)
--
Esa Perkiö
EdLincoln
COMPLEX rules.
These rules generally do not apply if:
Regulation D, Rule 147, or Rule 145 apply:
(see p. 337-338 orf Dearborn Passtrak Series 7)
I.) Regulation D
1.)
The stock is only sold to one of the following:
a.) 35 or fewer people (See Rule 506)
b.) Either
i. accredited investors (millionarires or people who consistently earn
$2,00,000 a year) or
ii. financial institutions
c.) officers or other insiders of the issuer
AND
2.) The purchaser signs a note saying he purchased the stock for investment
purposes only and will not sell for a year.
AND
3.) You give the buyer all the info that a prospectus would contain.
OR
II.) Rule 147 Interstate offerings:
Offerings that take place entirely in one state
All of the following apply
1.) the issuer has its principle office and receives 80% of its income in
the state
2.) At least 80% of the issuers assets are located within one state
3.) at least 80% of the offering proceeds are located within the state
4.) the broker dealer acting as underwriter is a resident of the state and
has an office in the state ; and
5.) all purchasers are residents of the state
OR
III. Rule 145
You only sell to Qualified Insttutional Investors with at least 100,000,000 in
assets.
(Please note. If you plan on doing it, hire a lawyer. Don't just use this
email).
<< Subject: Re: Humanity gets conquered.
From: j...@mit.edu (John F. Carr)
Date: Wed, Dec 17, 2003 5:36 PM
Message-id: <3fe0da5b$0$566$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
>><BR><BR>
Konrad Gaertner
>
> To issue stock in the US you must issue a Prospectus and obey some VERY
> COMPLEX rules.
>
> These rules generally do not apply if:
>
> Regulation D, Rule 147, or Rule 145 apply:
> (see p. 337-338 orf Dearborn Passtrak Series 7)
>
> I.) Regulation D
> 1.)
> The stock is only sold to one of the following:
> a.) 35 or fewer people (See Rule 506)
> b.) Either
> i. accredited investors (millionarires or people who consistently earn
> $2,00,000 a year) or
> c.) officers or other insiders of the issuer
I want to know how often part b gets invoked... it can't be *that*
easy to find more than 35 millionaires or financial institutions
willing to invest.
--KG
Warrick M. Locke
kgae...@worldnet.att.net says...
suspect, and it isn't that uncommon for businesses to start with less
than a million dollars total capital.
Regards,
Ric
Walter Jon Williams
news:bsbtni$3fo$1...@oravannahka.helsinki.fi:
> I know very little about the publishing business but I'm interested to
> hear why this wouldn't work. Somebody tell me, please? :)
>
>
There was a type of publishing in 19th Century America used to work very
much like that: salesmen would travel door-to-door collecting orders for
books, and the books would then be shipped to the customers later. Mostly
it was religious publishing. Serious writers and critics looked down on
this type of publishing, but Mark Twain published almost all his works that
way, because it was the only way of reaching rural readers who had no
bookshops within 500 miles.
It could be done much easier on the Web today, but it would require a lot
of time and skills. For me to do it would be to take time away from what
I'm writing now--- and I'm being =paid= to write what I'm writing now, by a
publisher who has publicists and copy editors already working for them.
There are very few writers who can work as their own publishers, in part
because two very different sets of skill sets are involved, in part because
both are full-time jobs.
JoatSimeon
>There are very few writers who can work as their own publishers, in part
because two very different sets of skill sets are involved, in part because
both are full-time jobs.
-- yeah. It's a basic economic principle -- division of labor, specialization.
steve miller
wrotD:
>Walter Jon Williams <donttr...@phonyaddress.net> wrote:
>
>: Seriously, though, if I were going to do the subscription route, I'd
>: rather it be for the third Metropolitan book.
>
>Just playing with the idea here... How much would you expect?
>
>Consider a web page collecting, say, a minimum of 10$ per participant.
>(Actual money, pledges don't work.) Once a certain sum has been reached,
>the author is informed, a contract written and an advance paid. If the sum
>is not reached within a set time, everyone involved gets their money back,
>possibly minus transaction costs.
The thing is that *many* of the authors who might do this are also
already under contract -- in some cases contracts tying them to
existing publishers for their next book in series, the next science
fiction book, the next fantasy...whatever. They also often have
agents... are the agents abandoned for this type of publication and
expected to work hard on the *next* big-market book?
>Once the book is ready, it's printed without blurbs or glitzy covers or
>anything else extra
I think this is explictly wrong for the audience you'd be reaching.
That audience wants the feel of "an important book", not the feel of
"generic words"... so the art is something that shouldn't be skimped
on. Good art is not an extra -- it's expected.
I do a variation on what you suggest with the SRM Publisher chapbook
line. While we sometimes just go ahead and print a couple hundred
copies (as with Ru Emerson's recent chapbook, which I felt would pay
itself back reasonably quickly without needing advance orders, and
which came close to selling out at it's first public appearance at
TorCon) -- we often do take subscriptions -- oddly enough, mostly at
the $10 you propose.
This way, the first run of chapbooks pays for the cost of initial
printing, advertising, art, etc... and lets us then do something you
don't envision -- it lets us sell some copies to the genre stores.
Totally bypassing the genre stores is a serious mistake -- the genre
stores are very much a value-added situation for authors and small
publishers, and seeing them (and treating them) as some
all-consumptive middle-man needing elimination only helps reduce
sales of follow-on titles.
(Interestingly enough, look at some of the popular but hard-to-find
books that *came* from those bookstore publishers -- Barry Hughart's
omnibus comes to mind!)...
We're in a position that lets us take advantage of ebook rights as
well (as you suggest might be useful) -- but you need to know that
combined ebook and print first year sales of the chapbooks is variable
and if one does 1000 copies (combined!) in that first year, it is
doing well. While we do have one chapbook title with over 10,000
copies in print (since 1995) and another that closing in on it... we
also have several titles still in first printings of 200 or 300 copies
after 3 years or more.
The small publisher route isn't something every writer can do,
especially not the ones with day jobs. I can work it because (between
Sharon and I) we're not writing more than 2 books most years, we're
not on call for day jobs, and we're able to go to a convention and
spend a lot of time behind tables.
At TorCon, between us, we spent over 30 hours directly pushing our
books and chapbooks -- either on panels or in the dealer's room where
we shared a table with Meisha Merlin and also spent time behind other
dealer tables. Still, none of this would work if we didn't have the
coming-out-like-clockwork new book a year from a recognized publisher
and it wouldn't work nearly as well if we weren't beiung invited to
conventions. It also helps that we live in a low-rent district in
Maine...
The problem with the web-only approach is that without more personal
contact with the reader-base, you can't grow the audience well. And in
the end, to be effective, you can't entirely bypass a publisher. You
can create a new one -- but to do it right there has to be a
publisher, with organization.
Steve Miller
Visiting Conduit and TriNoc*Con in 2004
Balance of Trade out now from embiid.com
Low Port -- "unexpectedly rewarding" says PW
John F. Carr
Esa Perkio <epe...@cc.helsinki.fi> wrote:
>Walter Jon Williams wrote:
>
>: Seriously, though, if I were going to do the subscription route, I'd
>: rather it be for the third Metropolitan book.
>
>Just playing with the idea here... How much would you expect?
>
>Consider a web page collecting, say, a minimum of 10$ per participant.
I started to write a detailed point by point commentary and criticism
but I realized I could say all I needed to say in a few paragraphs.
There are two separate issues here.
First, you need to manage a small print run edition so as to recover
the initial investment while selling at a reasonable price. Your $10
per copy minimum might do as a down payment but it won't pay for the
project. That's about what it costs to print the physical book[*].
Plan on spending thousands of dollars plus the author's advance before
the presses start rolling. Don't count on a major publisher showing
interest. There's a reason they aren't picking up your favorite
unpublished book. It won't be a big seller and your limited edition
won't change their minds. The best you can hope for is for SFBC to
buy reprint rights.
Second, you need a way to shift the initial investment away the
author. We're assuming that there is a way to make the books balance
in the end, but the author suffering from cash flow problems isn't
willing to get paid months or a year later and the bank isn't willing
to give him a loan against royalties. This is where you start talking
about subscriptions vs. investments, and I'm inclined to think that
this is the easier part of the problem. (Partly due to optimism about
the free market. Partly because if there were an unwritten book I
wanted to read AND a business plan that could make money off of a book
the major publisher's won't touch, I would invest myself. Invest
meaning I get a share of the profits, as distinguished from sponsoring
a project with no return except for the book.)
But you should put step one first and get some ballpark figures for
how you are going to make the books balance. For example: "I will
invest $3000 up front for advertising, web presence, assorted business
costs, and legal advice. All this is lost if the project fails.
I'm sure 100 people will buy a signed, limited edition hardcover of
_Gor Meets Captain America_ at up to $50, and 250 people will buy a
paperback copy in the $20 to $30 range, or 400 if it costs under $20.
Double the last figure if I can get it listed on Amazon with their
usual discount."
*From $4 per traditionally printed paperback in plausible quantities
up to $15 per print on demand hardcover.
(In related news, I just discovered my copy of _Metropolitan_. I had
set it aside when I went to bed one night seven years ago and it was
accidentally buried before I could finish reading.)
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
John F. Carr
steve miller <che...@starswarmnews.com> wrote:
>I do a variation on what you suggest with the SRM Publisher chapbook
>line. While we sometimes just go ahead and print a couple hundred
>copies (as with Ru Emerson's recent chapbook, which I felt would pay
>itself back reasonably quickly without needing advance orders, and
>which came close to selling out at it's first public appearance at
>TorCon) -- we often do take subscriptions -- oddly enough, mostly at
>the $10 you propose.
That's $10 for a 64 page softcover booklet. I'm guessing you don't
pay an editor or proofreader, and you do your own layout.
>Totally bypassing the genre stores is a serious mistake -- the genre
>stores are very much a value-added situation for authors and small
>publishers, and seeing them (and treating them) as some
>all-consumptive middle-man needing elimination only helps reduce
>sales of follow-on titles.
If your small print run is dominated by fixed costs, you may even make
more money by selling two copies to a store at a 40% discount instead
of one copy to a reader at cover price.
I second the statement that store exposure is important. Seeing a
copy of _Quiet Knives_, Liaden #9, in Pandemonium reminded me that
MITSFS doesn't have anything more recent than #4 and we need to catch
up. But how does a small publisher get store owners to buy its books?
--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)
John Pelan
>I second the statement that store exposure is important. Seeing a
>copy of _Quiet Knives_, Liaden #9, in Pandemonium reminded me that
>MITSFS doesn't have anything more recent than #4 and we need to catch
>up. But how does a small publisher get store owners to buy its books?
Advertise, direct mail, telephone, e-mail... With all that, most
stores will tend to ignore a small press. Unless the owner/manager is
savvy enough to realize that the one thing that keeps them from being
swallowed up by the big boxes is the ability to offer material
unavailable at the big boxes it can be pretty much a waste of time
trying to convince to carry something "different".
A lot of the SF speciality stores ignored our Darkside Press imprint,
with the net result that the horror specialists that had been carrying
Midnight House titles just expanded and got loads of new customers.
To me, the idea that there would be a pretty decent market for
collections by authors like Leiber, Wyndham, Cartmill, Russell, Simak,
Galouye, Brunner, and Jacobs seems a given, but there you go...
Cheers,
John
BTW: The Cartmill book is in next week!
steve miller
>If your small print run is dominated by fixed costs, you may even make
>more money by selling two copies to a store at a 40% discount instead
>of one copy to a reader at cover price.
Part of the key *is* selling multiple copies -- say 6 or 10 instead of
one or two. Then, even absorbing some of the mailing costs to the
stores, the cashflow is higher.
>I second the statement that store exposure is important. Seeing a
>copy of _Quiet Knives_, Liaden #9, in Pandemonium reminded me that
>MITSFS doesn't have anything more recent than #4 and we need to catch
>up. But how does a small publisher get store owners to buy its books?
Part of that is -- imagine! -- having proper price points and giving
reasonable discounts. Sharn and I ran a genreshop/SF art agency (that
was BookCastle and DreamsGarth, Inc, in Reisterstown, Md. in the late
70s and into the early 80s) -- and I'd have self-published writers and
fanzine editors wanting me to carry their work for a 10% or 20% cut of
cover price. That is -- they wanted me to lay out $8 for their $10
book. Not equitable, really.
I've also had dealers who were considering carrying our chapbooks
visibly sigh with relief when I wasn't offering them a 25% or 30%
discount. This non-standard 30% discount is what some of the POD
providers are suggesting authors ask for. Nope -- neither the dealer
nor the publisher can be in the spot of always doing a favor for the
other.
>But how does a small publisher get store owners to buy its books?
Another part of the answer here, BTW, is willingness give support,
and to be seen. We sign books, we'll send signed bookplates, we'll
stand behind the dealer tables at conventions, and we send people to
the dealers we know carry our books. This really is a community.
Eliminating the "middle man" diminishes the interplay of the
community.
Steve
Richard D. Latham
It's not that difficult to become an "accredited investor". If you've
had a brokerage account for a few years, just give your broker a
call. He'll send you the paperwork.
Basically, it involves demonstrating that you have money that you
won't be needing for a few years, and showing a history of investment
that indicates that you understand the notion that the price doesn't
always go up :-)
--
#include <disclaimer.std> /* I don't speak for IBM ... */
/* Heck, I don't even speak for myself */
/* Don't believe me ? Ask my wife :-) */
Richard D. Latham lat...@us.ibm.com
Peter D. Tillman
j...@mit.edu (John F. Carr) wrote:
>
>
> (In related news, I just discovered my copy of _Metropolitan_. I had
> set it aside when I went to bed one night seven years ago and it was
> accidentally buried before I could finish reading.)
Well, I do hope you went back & finished it. After a bit of dusting....
Wonderful book, as is the sequel.
Cheers -- Pete Tillman, who needs to track down one of the Vance Joe
Bain books that's gone AWOL...
Nathan Leahy
> Nathan Leahy wrote:
>
> > I've bullied my brother into buying me "Course of Empire" by Eric
> > Flint on the basis of the snippets I read on Baen's Bar, which I
> > really enjoyed. Basic plot outline is that humanity gets conquered by
> > the Jao, who as alien overlords go are not too bad. The Jao
> > recognisably think alienly and humans are not regaining independance
> > any time soon. What other books have this combination of believable
> > aliens who are not humans in suits and humanity as a conquered race,
> > either recently or as a part of a star spanning Empire where they are
> > just one race of sepoys among many? (Do not mention the awful
> > Pandora's Legion) I thought Dread Empire's Fall : The Praxis was quite
> > good ass well
>
> I once read a children's story in which Earth is ruled by aliens. The
> aliens are not too bad, but other, really nasty aliens attack, forcing
> humans and the 1st aliens to fight together.
Eric Flint, writing a children's book? I think not. The characters are
well developed, rounded and believable. The historical parallels are
amusing and relevamt to the story. If you don't like the book you
could be far more civil stating that. However, I certainly don't feel
it falls under Sturgeon's Law. In any case criticising a book because
it is written for subadults is hardly a good idea on a SF NG, where
Robert Anson Heinlein is worshipped, and "Starship Troopers" hailed as
a classic of world literature.