Q- Tanith Lee, Neil Gaiman & homophobia
Fire3Sky
evil gay character and writes it as if their sexuality makes them *especially*
evil or sordid, so they are not just evil, they are Gay! Evil, which is
supposedly much more shocking. There are actually a lot of SF and mystery
writers that do this, and it is very bigoted - imagine if a writers had an evil
jewish character and implied that their jewishness made them extra evil - not
just regular evil, but Jewish! Evil and Jewish! Sordid. Anyway, it is very
offensive, and I find it strange that Tanith Lee is on so many "best of" lists.
My question is, is this kind of demonization of gay characters a problem in
*all* of her books? She is a good writer, and I might consider reading more of
her work if she doesn't use the Gay! Evil storyline all the time (although I
think Orson Scott Card is permanently on my 'don't bother' list because of
homophobia).
Also, I loved Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere and Stardust., but I had to stop
reading the Sandman comics because of Gay!Evil or Gay! Sordid characters. Does
his short story collection have the same problems?
Fire3Sky
Krijn Mossel
It's been too long since I read Tanith Lee to give a coherent opinion, but I'm
really surprised you read this pattern into Gaiman's Sandman!
The lesbian couple Hazel and Foxglove are definitely not portrayed negatively
at their first appearance (though they are a bit comic-reliefish), but later
on get to star in the Death-miniseries _The Time Of Your Life_. OK, so that's
not Sandman-proper, but still.
Then there's Rose Walker's friend Hal from _The Doll's House_ and _The
Kindly Ones_, who's a sympathetic character, though with some barbs.
Alex Burgess and Paul McGuire are a bit more ambiguous. After all, Alex is
the son of the evil sorcerer who imprisoned Dream. He's severely punished
for his father's crimes and his own lack of action. Later on, Alex's lover
of many years Paul is shown being quite friendly to Rose Walker. And in the
end (spoiler)
Alex is redeemed by the new Dream (implying that his punishment was not
entirely just), and the old couple is shown in a melancholy mood, holding
hands. All in all, I'd not call them eeeevil, nor sordid.
Fire3Sky, I'm curious how you formed your opinion about the Sandman series,
and if you got the impression early on, I'd advise to read on a bit further.
Krijn
Fire3Sky
>and if you got the impression early on, I'd advise to read on a bit further.
I did get the impression early on - I was reading the first collection of
Sandman. There was the evil gay son of the bad guy and later there was another
character ( I think a supporting character) who was definitely Gay! Sordid!.
I pretty much gave up after that.
Fire3Sky
Andrew Ducker
news:20020213051000...@mb-fz.aol.com:
Would it help if I said that he's won at least won award/plaudit from a gay
group for his portrayal of gay characters?
Andy D
--
http://www.notzen.com/andrew http://andrewducker.livejournal.com
Zoe J Selengut
On 13 Feb 2002, Fire3Sky wrote:
> I've read some of Tanith Lee's short stories and in several of them she has an
> evil gay character and writes it as if their sexuality makes them *especially*
> evil or sordid, so they are not just evil, they are Gay! Evil, which is
> supposedly much more shocking.
Could you cite some specific examples?
I've read nearly all of her work that's available in the US, and a number
of her books that are out of print, and this interpretation has never,
ever occured to me. The only group of people towards whom she seems to
have any prejudice are big stupid heterosexual male rapists, and even then
only when all the adjectives apply, and even then not always. The period
setting of many of her stories has to be taken into account as well.
She is interested in decadence and perversity, but does not equate them
with homosexuality per se.
In _Don't Bite the Sun_/_Drinking Sapphire Wine_ she apparently assumes
that being able to change one's physical sex at will would mostly
eliminate the 'need' for homosexuality - if you wanted to sleep with a
man, you'd get a female body, which I think is a bit shortsighted and
foolish - but the moral judgements in the story have nothing to do with
sexual practices. Also, they were written 20-odd years ago.
Zoe
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <3C6A3066...@xs4all.nl>,
> Krijn Mossel <krijn....@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >
> >Fire3Sky, I'm curious how you formed your opinion about the Sandman series,
> >and if you got the impression early on, I'd advise to read on a bit further.
>
> reading the first collection (Preludes and Nocturnes) until you've already
> fallen in love with the series. It isn't like the rest.
I think the best way to discover the series is with the short story
collections _Dream Country_, _Fables and Reflections_, and _Worlds'
End_.
> I also can't recall any evil gay characters in Sandman. The Clurach-can't-
> spell-his-name guy is *flakey*, but it is implied that faries (the mythological
> sort, this guy both gay AND a fairy) are in general a flakey species. SO
> that's not homophobic, just racist.
Julius Caesar in "August", but I view that more as a condemnation of
rape than homosexuality. Compare with the protaganist in "Calliope".
--KG
Doom & Gloom Dave
"Konrad Gaertner" <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3C6A936A...@worldnet.att.net...
presented
sympathetically and tastefully without a condoning or apologies for what
he had done. I think I'm wrong though, I seem to recall now both boys
and girls in his dream. So he is a pedophile/murderer with omnivorous
tastes.
The Corinthian trolls as rough trade for victims, but as a dream creature
sexual orientation is probably not applicable.
I can't recall any either. Certainly even were a villain gay I'd say so
what, are all villains to be WASP men.
I think the last appearance of the boarding house owner drag queen he
comes off as a real bastard, but not because of his sexuality, and not
as a villain, just a run of the mill ass.
Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y
Doom & Gloom Dave <dwh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Konrad Gaertner" <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:3C6A936A...@worldnet.att.net...
[on _Sandman_ and gay characters]
>> Julius Caesar in "August", but I view that more as a condemnation of
>> rape than homosexuality. Compare with the protaganist in "Calliope".
Well, old Julius probably *was* evil, and in his lifetime he seems to
have acquired a reputation for being "every woman's man, and every man's
woman".
> "Big Fun" at the serial killers convention, though he is actually
>presented
>sympathetically and tastefully without a condoning or apologies for what
>he had done. I think I'm wrong though, I seem to recall now both boys
>and girls in his dream. So he is a pedophile/murderer with omnivorous
>tastes.
Not even an exclusive pedophile; he tried to rape/kill wosshername,
remember? Who was over twenty?
> I think the last appearance of the boarding house owner drag queen he
>comes off as a real bastard, but not because of his sexuality, and not
>as a villain, just a run of the mill ass.
As I recall, a number of gay or otherwise sexually non-average people
appeared in the book during its run and they weren't noticeably more
messed up than the heterosexuals (which is to say they *were* pretty
messed up on average, this was largely not a book about happy and
well-adjusted people). Most of them were portrayed rather
sympathetically, though.
--
Leif Kj{\o}nn{\o}y | "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree
www.pvv.org/~leifmk| That it carries too far, when I say
Math geek and gamer| That it frequently breakfasts at five-o'clock tea,
GURPS, Harn, CORPS | And dines on the following day." (Carroll)
Andrea Leistra
Fire3Sky <fire...@aol.com> wrote:
>Also, I loved Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere and Stardust., but I had to stop
>reading the Sandman comics because of Gay!Evil or Gay! Sordid
>characters. Does his short story collection have the same problems?
When did you stop? I can't really remember any such portrayals;
there's what's-her-name (Donna?) in the Diner of Death, and while
she certainly isn't flawless she's not portrayed any worse than
any of the straight people in that bit. There's Hazel and Foxglove
(a lesbian couple) later on, and Hal in A Doll's House (I'm not
quite sure whether it's ever established that he's gay or just
a transvestite) both of whom are sympathetically portrayed. Which
character(s) in particular bothered you?
ISTR that Gaiman won some sort of award or other for his positive
portrayal of gay characters, mostly because I remember hearing a quip that
it was the only time he'd been cheered just for the pronunciation of his
name. Ah, here it is, from his website (neilgaiman.com):
"Death: The Time of Your Life, released in March 1997 in hardcover, won
the GLAAD award for Best Comic of 1996."
So it wasn't for Sandman, but for something I haven't read. Oh well.
--
Andrea Leistra
Nyrath the nearly wise
> I think the best way to discover the series is with the short story
> collections _Dream Country_, _Fables and Reflections_, and _Worlds'
> End_.
Yes, in _Dream Country_ I *loved* the story
"The Dream of 1,000 Cats"
CleV
I think you've just not read enough of Tanith Lee. Everyone she
writes, both good and bad, are ambisexual.
Aris Katsaris
"Fire3Sky" <fire...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020213051000...@mb-fz.aol.com...
Um. For starters I don't remember the supporting character who was
gay and sordid, and secondly given how many straight evil characters
you must have seen in the first collection, that was rather soon for you to
give up.
Anyway, Gaiman's written a large number of gay characters, most of them
good guys.
Aris Katsaris
David T. Bilek
Whereas I thought it was not much more than pandering to the "oh my
god, CATS!!!!! AWWW" crowd. It wasn't terrible, but I could have
done without it.
-David
Nyrath the nearly wise
> > Yes, in _Dream Country_ I *loved* the story
> > "The Dream of 1,000 Cats"
>
> Whereas I thought it was not much more than pandering to the "oh my
> god, CATS!!!!! AWWW" crowd. It wasn't terrible, but I could have
> done without it.
Phooey on the cats. What I was facinated by
was the "malleable reality" concept.
The universe wasn't merely altered to a new
reality, it was altered such that it had
*always been* the new reality.
Brenda W. Clough
I have been very carefuly not to let -my- cat get hold of this story.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at www.analogsf.com
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Bandh Darwaza
>In _Don't Bite the Sun_/_Drinking Sapphire Wine_ she apparently assumes
>that being able to change one's physical sex at will would mostly
>eliminate the 'need' for homosexuality - if you wanted to sleep with a
>man, you'd get a female body, which I think is a bit shortsighted and
>foolish - but the moral judgements in the story have nothing to do with
>sexual practices. Also, they were written 20-odd years ago.
Plus, those books feature one character whose parents are both male (the
implication being that one switched from male to female for a time just to give
birth). They're portrayed as neither "good" nor "evil," but very neutrally,
thrown off in a very off-handed manner.
I have read a lot of TL stuff, and I really can't see what the original
poster is complaining about. Bisexual demons in the Flat Earth series?
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")
make GEORYN disappear to reply
"'Thin Thighs For Your Man.' But I don't *like* men with thin thighs" --Daria
N.P.:"Change"- H a i k a r a / G e a f a r
Robert Carnegie
Including robots :-)
So I hope that this has been a misinterpretation of the text,
and not a more sophisticated variation of "Is author x gay?
I just wondered after reading book y."
Jack Bohn
>Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
>
>> > > Yes, in _Dream Country_ I *loved* the story
>> > > "The Dream of 1,000 Cats"
>> >
>>
>> Phooey on the cats. What I was facinated by
>> was the "malleable reality" concept.
>>
>> The universe wasn't merely altered to a new
>> reality, it was altered such that it had
>> *always been* the new reality.
>
>I have been very carefuly not to let -my- cat get hold of this story.
When it occurred to me that it didn't have to be 1,000 cats; that
story might flit through the dreams of 1,000 humans, I haven't
had a restful night.
--
-Jack
Nathan F Russell
>In _Don't Bite the Sun_/_Drinking Sapphire Wine_ she apparently assumes
>that being able to change one's physical sex at will would mostly
>eliminate the 'need' for homosexuality - if you wanted to sleep with a
>man, you'd get a female body, which I think is a bit shortsighted and
>foolish - but the moral judgements in the story have nothing to do with
>sexual practices. Also, they were written 20-odd years ago.
Which novel, IIRC with Anthony as an author, is it which includes the
main character having a relationship with a demon whose gender changed
after each sexual episode?
I remember that not even being a major focus for moral debate, or
widely known, though the fact that the demons themselves were not
regarded as human WAS an issue.
Nathan
Arian Hokin
> Which novel, IIRC with Anthony as an author, is it which includes the
> main character having a relationship with a demon whose gender changed
> after each sexual episode?
_If I Pay Thee Not In Gold_, by Piers Anthony and Mercedes Lackey
Arian
Tad
the topic. I'm not familiar with Lee, and Gaiman (as has already been
established) is definitely NOT "homophobic"; even Card never struck me as a
homophobe, despite his tendency to let his Family Values(TM) show through his
characters. It would take something a lot more overt than simply writing about
gay people who aren't nice and helpful citizens to make me brand someone with
that label.
>I had to stop reading the Sandman comics because of Gay!Evil or Gay! Sordid
characters.
If you are simply upset because these authors weren't compelled to write the
first Gay!Superman character, then maybe you should take up your word processor
and go for it. Personally, I would be more put off by that sort of writing
because it would be obvious pandering. (I don't even like the straight
Superman that much!)
You'll do the Gay!Community a great favor, and probably experience some
personal growth in the bargain, when you stop trying to chart the ratio of
good/evil/gay/not-gay characters in literature and pay more attention to the
other facets of it. After all, the Point to be taken from a Gay!Evil character
may simply be that he's Evil first, and just happens to be gay in the bargain.
And besides... what do you have against evil people? Are you an evilphobe?
T+
Jonathan Hendry
<how...@brazee.net> wrote in message news:a5hknb$bbv$1...@peabody.colorado.edu...
>
> On 26-Feb-2002, tadc...@aol.comspamfree (Tad) wrote:
>
> > And besides... what do you have against evil people? Are you an
> > evilphobe?
>
Some of my best friends...
Jordan179
=
> It's been too long since I read Tanith Lee to give a coherent opinion, but I'm
> really surprised you read this pattern into Gaiman's Sandman!
>
> The lesbian couple Hazel and Foxglove are definitely not portrayed negatively
> at their first appearance (though they are a bit comic-reliefish), but later
> on get to star in the Death-miniseries _The Time Of Your Life_. OK, so that's
> not Sandman-proper, but still.
Hazel and Foxglove are totally sympathetic characters: you're
obviously meant to like them and root for their love to succeed.
> Then there's Rose Walker's friend Hal from _The Doll's House_ and _The
> Kindly Ones_, who's a sympathetic character, though with some barbs.
>
> Alex Burgess and Paul McGuire are a bit more ambiguous. After all, Alex is
> the son of the evil sorcerer who imprisoned Dream. He's severely punished
> for his father's crimes and his own lack of action. Later on, Alex's lover
> of many years Paul is shown being quite friendly to Rose Walker. And in the
> end (spoiler)
>
>
>
>
>
> Alex is redeemed by the new Dream (implying that his punishment was not
> entirely just), and the old couple is shown in a melancholy mood, holding
> hands. All in all, I'd not call them eeeevil, nor sordid.
Alex is portrayed as being a basically decent guy who is burdened by
the legacy of his father's evil. I don't remember Paul in enough
detail to comment (I should re-read the series sometime soon) but I do
remember him as an ok sort of fellow. It's obvious that the auctorial
sympathy was with them, as one of the points made in the early series
(it's said EXPLICITLY by more than one character) is that Dream has
been overly cruel.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Jordan179
There ARE some sordid gay people in Gaiman's world. And some sordid
straight people. And some downright EVIL people of both types, too.
Guess what, there are also some sordid gay and sordid straight and
downright EVIL people in our world, too. There is no reason to assume
that being gay gives one any immunity to being sordid, or evil.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Jerry Friedman
...
[alleged homophobia in Tanith Lee]
> I have read a lot of TL stuff, and I really can't see what the original
> poster is complaining about. Bisexual demons in the Flat Earth series?
Well, I guess it's demonization :-)
Both the Great Love Stories in the series are heterosexual, and
Dathanja, one of the most Good of all Good Guys (I'm a little
surprised not to see him in the "good guys you don't want any part of"
thread), seems to be pretty much straight. But come on. Lee is
clearly in love with Azhrarn, and Azhrarn is bi. Yes, the Great Love
Of His Whatever is a woman, but that's because he needs to have a
child. And yes, he can turn himself into a woman, but we cannot
imagine him pregnant. We are not even going to try.
--
Jerry Friedman
Bruce Baugh
JSBass...@yahoo.com (Jordan179) wrote:
> I don't remember Paul in enough detail to comment (I should re-read
> the series sometime soon) but I do remember him as an ok sort of
> fellow.
His dealings with Rose near the end of the series are very, very
sympathetically portrayed. And his line "I am the very _best_ kind of
pervert" is a great one.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> Writer of Fortune <*> bruce...@spiretech.com
Feb: Clan Lasombra Trilogy, volume 1: Shards
Mar: Serial Experiments Lain Ultimate Fan Guide
http://www.tkau.org/
Brenda W. Clough
> In article <374990d6.0202...@posting.google.com>,
> JSBass...@yahoo.com (Jordan179) wrote:
>
> > I don't remember Paul in enough detail to comment (I should re-read
> > the series sometime soon) but I do remember him as an ok sort of
> > fellow.
>
> His dealings with Rose near the end of the series are very, very
> sympathetically portrayed. And his line "I am the very _best_ kind of
> pervert" is a great one.
I particularly admired his self description, "one of the Stately Old Homos
of Britain."
Lee Ann Rucker
<JSBass...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hazel and Foxglove are totally sympathetic characters: you're
> obviously meant to like them and root for their love to succeed.
From _The Sandman Companion_, pg 124:
"I wasn't pursuing an agenda with Hazel and Fox, though. I just wanted
_Sandman_ to reflect some of the people I knew in real life. That was
really the progressive thing - to represent *any* sort of woman,
regardless of sexual orientation, as nice, cool and sensible..."
David Allsopp
<clo...@erols.com> writes
>Bruce Baugh wrote:
>
>> In article <374990d6.0202...@posting.google.com>,
>> JSBass...@yahoo.com (Jordan179) wrote:
>>
>> > I don't remember Paul in enough detail to comment (I should re-read
>> > the series sometime soon) but I do remember him as an ok sort of
>> > fellow.
>>
>> His dealings with Rose near the end of the series are very, very
>> sympathetically portrayed. And his line "I am the very _best_ kind of
>> pervert" is a great one.
>
>I particularly admired his self description, "one of the Stately Old Homos
>of Britain."
Lifted from that most courageous and witty of people, Quentin Crisp,
whom I admired immensely.
--
David Allsopp Houston, this is Tranquillity Base.
Remove SPAM to email me The Eagle has landed.
Bruce Baugh
David Allsopp <d...@tqSPAMbase.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >I particularly admired his self description, "one of the Stately Old
> >Homos of Britain."
>
> Lifted from that most courageous and witty of people, Quentin Crisp,
> whom I admired immensely.
Lifted and attributed, which is one of my favorite things about Neil's
writing - he isn't talking down to the reader, but sharing his
enthusiasms and offering pointers on where to go get more. I imagine
there's some significant number of Sandman readers who've become fans of
Crisp because of that scene.