Undecided?

[Brenda Clough]

I am addressing Americans of voting age.

Submitted for your consideration:
http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/

One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

Brenda

--
My latest novel SPEAK TO OUR DESIRES is available exclusively from Book
View Cafe.
http://www.bookviewcafe.com/index.php/Brenda-Clough/Novels/Speak-to-Our-Desires-Chapter-01

[Rod Speed]

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote

> I am addressing Americans of voting age.

> Submitted for your consideration:
> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/

> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

Corse its far from clear what he actually does read
and how much of it is a lie designed to project some
type of image to the voters by the liars he employs...

[Ahasuerus]

On Aug 17, 10:18 pm, Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>
> Submitted for your consideration:http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>
> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

That's an interesting question. When Romney was asked about his
favorite novel in a Fox News interview back in April 2007 (http://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt2yMQ-HmQw) he mentioned _Battlefield Earth_
and called it "very fun science fiction". According to a New York
Times article (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/romney-
favors-hubbard-novel/), "[a] spokesman said later it was one of Mr.
Romney’s favorite novels."

However, in an interview with Hugh Hewitt about a week later (http://
www.hughhewitt.com/transcripts.aspx?id=fbf30567-2301-4636-813a-1808055700d8)
Romney said:

"Well, you know, that’s really not my favorite novel. Probably my
favorite is Huckleberry Finn and I’ve read all of Louis L’Amour’s
books, I think. I may have missed one of two, but all of his westerns.
You know, I have a guilty pleasure in some science fiction. A couple
of my other favorite science fiction, Ann McCaffrey’s Dragon Flight,
and Orson Scott Card’s Ender’s Game. There’s some great science
fiction out there." and then, a little later, "I do enjoy Star Trek".

According to other articles, e.g. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76620.html
, Romney also claims to have read _The Hunger Games_, _Twilight_ and
the Harry Potter books, but some commentators, e.g. Joe Scarborough,
have questioned Romney's SF credentials suggesting that he may be, for
a lack of a better word, a "fake fan".

I would argue that the interesting thing about all this is not that a
major politician is not afraid to admit that he likes SF (although as
a "guilty pleasure"), but that it is plausible to allege that he is
faking it in order to sway voters.

And so, after all these years, it's finally over. The geek have
inherited the Earth.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <k0mu1j$4m5$1...@dont-email.me>,

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>
>Submitted for your consideration:
>http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>
>One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

Not going to change my opinion any.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <a98dim...@mid.individual.net>,

But is that the kind of image he would WANT to project? And if
his minions have ANY brains whatever, would THEY want to project
it?

[Rod Speed]

Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote

>>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.

>>> Submitted for your consideration:
>>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/

>>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

>> Corse its far from clear what he actually does read
>> and how much of it is a lie designed to project some
>> type of image to the voters by the liars he employs...

> But is that the kind of image he would WANT to project?

I've always been rather surprised at what political minders
do see as the appropriate way to do stuff like that.

With someone who was after all a mormon bishop,
it wouldn�t be too surprising if some minder wanted
to have him say something like that to try to appeal to
voters who hate the idea of voting for a mormon bishop.

It is clear that someone like Carl Rove can do stuff like
that very effectively indeed result with the voters wise.

> And if his minions have ANY brains whatever,
> would THEY want to project it?

The driving force must be to try to minimise the known
fact that he was a mormon bishop with the sort of voter
that hates those.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 7:50:01 AM UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote
>
> > Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> >> Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>
> >>> Submitted for your consideration:
>
> >>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>
> >>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>
> >> Corse its far from clear what he actually does read
> >> and how much of it is a lie designed to project some
> >> type of image to the voters by the liars he employs...
>
> > But is that the kind of image he would WANT to project?
>
> I've always been rather surprised at what political minders
> do see as the appropriate way to do stuff like that.
>
> With someone who was after all a mormon bishop,
> it wouldn�t be too surprising if some minder wanted
> to have him say something like that to try to appeal to
> voters who hate the idea of voting for a mormon bishop.

Yeah... did you notice who wrote BATTLEFIELD EARTH?

Away from SF, one time we were told that President George W. Bush
had really gotten into Albert Camus's _L'Etranger_.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stranger_%28novel%29>

This seems to be explained here, earlier:

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2005/03/03/Outside-View-Bush-Camus-and-Sartre/UPI-94931109833380/

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:18:16 -0400, Brenda Clough
<Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>
>Submitted for your consideration:
>http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>
>One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <t2bv289e5jpt6prl9...@4ax.com>,

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:18:16 -0400, Brenda Clough
><Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>>
>>Submitted for your consideration:
>>http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>>
>>One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>
>Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

Fantasy?

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 17, 8:18 pm, Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

However, as a Mormon, he may not be familiar with the connection
between that novel and another faith, as he probably doesn't read
things like the book with the volcano on the cover.

Also, he might be sympathetic to religious movements that are
disparaged by others, which is good in legitimate cases like Amahdiyya
Islam or Falun Gong.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 18, 5:22 am, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:

> Yeah... did you notice who wrote BATTLEFIELD EARTH?

A science-fiction writer who had gone into semi-retirement, known for
writing "Typewriter in the Sky" and "Final Blackout"...

Really. Some people may not be aware of his other claim to fame and/or
notoriety.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 18, 8:54 am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:

> Question:   Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

Anthem is definitely SF. Not having read that one, I can't comment,
except to note that even if it is SF, that would not make it _typical_
SF.

Looking Backwards is SF, but it is something else as well.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <5219c86a-aabf-4b7e...@u2g2000pbl.googlegroups.com>,

For some values of "good".

ObSF or I guess it's Fantasy: Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic
Spell Dump_, in which hundreds of random civilians get turned
into "collateral damage" in an effort by worshippers to summon
Huitzilopochtli.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <5b57024a-5b56-4e32...@wm7g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,

There's an old (well, over half a century now) story which some
here may perhaps not have heard.

A few years after WWII, the great and opinionated John W.
Campbell, Jr., editor of _Astounding,_ took to lunch a couple of
his stable of SF writers. One was L. Ron Hubbard, newly returned
from duty as a Naval officer; the other was a new guy, also
returned from the wars, who had lied about his age in order to
enlist in the Marines: Randall Garrett. As usual, Campbell
dominated the conversation, but at some point Campbell took a
moment to swallow or something, and Garrett remarked, "The way to
make a fortune in this country is to invent either a new
religion, or a new branch of psychiatry." And Hubbard didn't say
a thing. But _Dianetics_ came out a couple of years later.

[Brenda Clough]

You mean, those people who have no access to Wikipedia or the internet.
Scientology is not exactly a new arrival on the scene, and there was
plenty of noise about L.Ron and friends when the movie came out. I
dunno, I would hope that people who aspire to governance would be a
little, y'know, more informed.

[Brenda Clough]

On 8/18/2012 11:32 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<t2bv289e5jpt6prl9...@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee<how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:18:16 -0400, Brenda Clough
>> <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>>>
>>> Submitted for your consideration:
>>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>>>
>>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>>
>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>
> Fantasy?
>

Not only is it fantasy, it is high fantasy.

[Brenda Clough]

On 8/18/2012 12:03 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Aug 17, 8:18 pm, Brenda Clough<BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>
> However, as a Mormon, he may not be familiar with the connection
> between that novel and another faith, as he probably doesn't read
> things like the book with the volcano on the cover.

You assume then that none of his minions, aides or advisers know it,
either. Nor his kids, friends or wife. You say bubble, I say bubble.

[Brenda Clough]

On 8/18/2012 12:34 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article<a98dim...@mid.individual.net>,
> Rod Speed<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Brenda Clough<Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>
>>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>>
>>> Submitted for your consideration:
>>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>>
>>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>>
>> Corse its far from clear what he actually does read
>> and how much of it is a lie designed to project some
>> type of image to the voters by the liars he employs...
>
> But is that the kind of image he would WANT to project? And if
> his minions have ANY brains whatever, would THEY want to project
> it?
>

My husband suggests that he has an unclear idea of what Scientology
actually is.

[Chris]

On Aug 18, 12:55 pm, Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 8/18/2012 11:32 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > In article<t2bv289e5jpt6prl904ggaajd1bch80...@4ax.com>,

> > Howard Brazee<how...@brazee.net>  wrote:
> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:18:16 -0400, Brenda Clough

> >> <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com>  wrote:

>
> >>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>
> >>> Submitted for your consideration:
> >>>http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>
> >>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>
> >> Question:   Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>
> > Fantasy?
>
> Not only is it fantasy, it is high fantasy.
>
> Brenda

"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s
life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish
fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its
unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially
crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of
course, involves orcs."

-- Paul Krugman

[Rod Speed]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote
>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.

>>>>> Submitted for your consideration:

>>>>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/

>>>>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

>>>> Corse its far from clear what he actually does read
>>>> and how much of it is a lie designed to project some
>>>> type of image to the voters by the liars he employs...

>>> But is that the kind of image he would WANT to project?

>> I've always been rather surprised at what political minders
>> do see as the appropriate way to do stuff like that.

>> With someone who was after all a mormon bishop,

>> it wouldn�t be too surprising if some minder wanted

>> to have him say something like that to try to appeal to
>> voters who hate the idea of voting for a mormon bishop.

> Yeah... did you notice who wrote BATTLEFIELD EARTH?

Yes, but that's what you can get when some minder tells
the stuffed suit to waffle on about what he likes to read
and the stuffed shirt manages a blooper like Palin did when
she claimed she could see Russia from her front porch etc
and the minder starts slashing his wrists as he watches.

> Away from SF, one time we were told that President George W. Bush
> had really gotten into Albert Camus's _L'Etranger_.
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stranger_%28novel%29>

And if you buy that, I have this fucking great bridge that you
can have for peanuts, because we are sick of looking at it and
want something a bit more flash and modern to look at instead.

> This seems to be explained here, earlier:

> http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2005/03/03/Outside-View-Bush-Camus-and-Sartre/UPI-94931109833380/

I don't buy that either. Rove or someone like that might well have done that
tho.

[Rod Speed]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

> Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote

>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.

>> Submitted for your consideration:
>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/

>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

Nope, just fiction.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 08:54:01 -0600, Howard Brazee
<how...@brazee.net> wrote in
<news:t2bv289e5jpt6prl9...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

Yes. Certainly as much as _1984_.

Brian

[Ahasuerus]

On Aug 18, 12:03 pm, Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Aug 17, 8:18 pm, Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>
> However, as a Mormon, he may not be familiar with the connection
> between that novel and another faith, as he probably doesn't read

> things like the book with the volcano on the cover. [snip]

The Youtube clip posted upthread shows him commenting on Hubbard's
religion in the same sentence.

[Rod Speed]

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

> Yes.

Nope, no science involve.

> Certainly as much as _1984_.

There is more science in that.

[David DeLaney]

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Aug 17, 8:18 pm, Brenda Clough<BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>>
>> However, as a Mormon, he may not be familiar with the connection
>> between that novel and another faith, as he probably doesn't read
>> things like the book with the volcano on the cover.
>
>You assume then that none of his minions, aides or advisers know it,
>either. Nor his kids, friends or wife. You say bubble, I say bubble.

That's sufficient but not necessary; all that's necessary is that none of them
have TOLD him about it, and he hasn't found it out for himself on teh
Intarwebs yet.

Dave, keeping his worldview uncontaminated so that he may apotheosupersize
faster
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[James Silverton]

On 8/18/2012 12:05 PM, Quadibloc wrote:

Still writing books 40 years after his death!

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not" in Reply To.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <a9a6m9...@mid.individual.net>,

Except, of course, she never said that:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/palin/seealaska.asp
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 18, 1:59 pm, Ahasuerus <ahasue...@email.com> wrote:

> The Youtube clip posted upthread shows him commenting on Hubbard's
> religion in the same sentence.

Now that I know he "is not in favor of his religion by any means", I
am reassured.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 18, 10:09 am, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <5219c86a-aabf-4b7e-8ac6-b3a7fa36c...@u2g2000pbl.googlegroups.com>,

> Quadibloc  <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> >Also, he might be sympathetic to religious movements that are
> >disparaged by others, which is good in legitimate cases like Amahdiyya
> >Islam or Falun Gong.
>
> For some values of "good".

As I'm the sort of person who would like to see regime change in China
if we could get away with it, my value of good is one where cruel
tyrants or intolerant majorities do not go unpunished, and their
depredations are brought to a swift end.

John Savard

[Rod Speed]

"Ted Nolan <tednolan>" <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote in message
news:a9afo0...@mid.individual.net...

> In article <a9a6m9...@mid.individual.net>,
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote
>>
>>>>>>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>>
>>>>>>> Submitted for your consideration:
>>
>>>>>>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>>
>>>>>>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>>
>>>>>> Corse its far from clear what he actually does read
>>>>>> and how much of it is a lie designed to project some
>>>>>> type of image to the voters by the liars he employs...
>>
>>>>> But is that the kind of image he would WANT to project?
>>
>>>> I've always been rather surprised at what political minders
>>>> do see as the appropriate way to do stuff like that.
>>
>>>> With someone who was after all a mormon bishop,

>>>> it wouldn�t be too surprising if some minder wanted

>>>> to have him say something like that to try to appeal to
>>>> voters who hate the idea of voting for a mormon bishop.
>>
>>> Yeah... did you notice who wrote BATTLEFIELD EARTH?
>>
>>Yes, but that's what you can get when some minder tells
>>the stuffed suit to waffle on about what he likes to read
>>and the stuffed shirt manages a blooper like Palin did when
>>she claimed she could see Russia from her front porch etc
>>and the minder starts slashing his wrists as he watches.
>
> Except, of course, she never said that:
>
> http://www.snopes.com/politics/palin/seealaska.asp

That�s just hair splitting about what she actually did say,
as the video there shows.

[David Johnston]

On 8/17/2012 8:18 PM, Brenda Clough wrote:
> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>
> Submitted for your consideration:
> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>
> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>

> Brenda
>

Ack.

[David Johnston]

Yes, that's true. It's also true that it is ludicrous to claim Alaska's
proximity to Siberia as a foreign policy credential.

[Don Kuenz]

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 08:54:01 -0600, Howard Brazee
> <how...@brazee.net> wrote in
> <news:t2bv289e5jpt6prl9...@4ax.com> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>
> Yes.

Galt's motor, Rearden Metal, Wyatt's depleted oil field recovery
technology, and Dagny's high speed train all fall into the domain of
hard science fiction. They all lent themselves to stunning visual
effects in the movie.

--
Don Kuenz

[Rod Speed]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote

> djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote

>> Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote

>>> Also, he might be sympathetic to religious movements
>>> that are disparaged by others, which is good in legitimate
>>> cases like Amahdiyya Islam or Falun Gong.

>> For some values of "good".

> As I'm the sort of person who would like to see
> regime change in China if we could get away with it,

How intolerant of you...

> my value of good is one where cruel tyrants

But cuddly tyrants are fine ?

> or intolerant majorities

Corse you wouldn't be one of those yourself, eh ?

> do not go unpunished, and their
> depredations are brought to a swift end.

Tad easier said than done.

[Kip Williams]

Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote, On 8/18/12 5:28 PM:

With all the goofy stuff she said, it's hardly necessary to make things
up. I sometimes correct that particular misquote.


Kip W
rasfw

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 18, 4:39 pm, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:

> Yes, that's true.  It's also true that it is ludicrous to claim Alaska's
> proximity to Siberia as a foreign policy credential.

True, but the interviewer asked what insights she gained from being so
close to Russia, and she merely confirmed that, indeed, Russia was
close to Alaska.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 18, 3:40 pm, Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> Now that I know he "is not in favor of his religion by any means", I
> am reassured.

...because poor taste in SF is not, by itself, enough reason to
disqualify someone for the office of President.

John Savard

[Suzanne]

On 8/18/2012 12:58 PM, Brenda Clough wrote:
> My husband suggests that he has an unclear idea of what Scientology
> actually is.

I would suggest, having had to live through four years with the Twit as
my governor, that he has an unclear idea about just about everything.

-Suzanne

[Brenda Clough]

It may well, however, prevent me from voting for him.

[Kip Williams]

Suzanne wrote, On 8/18/12 9:12 PM:

To paraphrase the old wheeze about the weather, if you don't like Mitt's
opinion on something, wait a minute.


Kip W
rasfw

[Charles Bishop]

In article <M8yJ5...@kithrup.com>, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <t2bv289e5jpt6prl9...@4ax.com>,
>Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>>On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:18:16 -0400, Brenda Clough

>><Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>>>
>>>Submitted for your consideration:
>>>http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>>>
>>>One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>>

>>Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>

>Fantasy?

No more so than most other novels.

--
charles

[Rod Speed]

Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote
>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>>> Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote

>>>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.

>>>> Submitted for your consideration:
>>>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/

>>>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

>> Fantasy?

> No more so than most other novels.

Much more so than most other novels in fact.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 06:27:52 +1000, Rod Speed
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:a9ac75...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote
>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

>> Yes.

> Nope, no science involve.

You're wrong.

>> Certainly as much as _1984_.

> There is more science in that.

You're wrong again.

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 18, 7:54 pm, Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It may well, however, prevent me from voting for him.

I can see it helping a bit, but the issues in this campaign are so
clearly drawn. Since Obama didn't do anything irresponsible or
precipitous in respect of Afghanistan or Iraq, one would expect the
election to be decided on the economy, not on security issues.

Pork-barrel politics and the committee system, however, makes it
unlikely the American people will give Obama filibuster-proof
majorities in both houses. Thus, giving in to blackmail in the hope of
a few crumbs of useful economic action, versus Obama being allowed to
do nothing, is a temptation.

John Savard

[Howard Brazee]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:02:41 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
<b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>
>>> Yes.
>
>> Nope, no science involve.
>
>You're wrong.
>
>>> Certainly as much as _1984_.
>
>> There is more science in that.
>
>You're wrong again.

Agreed. I also question whether SF needs to involve (physical)
science.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 8/18/12 10:54 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:18:16 -0400, Brenda Clough

> <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>>
>> Submitted for your consideration:
>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>>
>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>

> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>

I've always thought of it as SF. Speculative in its politics (whether
you agree with them or not), has all sorts of gadgets and such as plot
relevant items (Rearden Metal, the Galt Motor, etc.), even superweapons
and so on. It's probably closest to a the SF branch that often gets
labeled "technothriller".


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 8/18/12 12:54 PM, Brenda Clough wrote:
> On 8/18/2012 12:05 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Aug 18, 5:22 am, Robert Carnegie<rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>>

>>> Yeah... did you notice who wrote BATTLEFIELD EARTH?
>>

>> A science-fiction writer who had gone into semi-retirement, known for
>> writing "Typewriter in the Sky" and "Final Blackout"...
>>
>> Really. Some people may not be aware of his other claim to fame and/or
>> notoriety.
>>
>> John Savard
>
>

> You mean, those people who have no access to Wikipedia or the internet.


Or who don't bother looking up the details on such things. Just because
we *CAN* look up a thing doesn't mean we MUST look up a thing.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 8/18/12 4:27 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote
>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote
>
>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>
>> Yes.
>
> Nope, no science involve.

(A) SF can mean "speculative fiction" and thus would qualify under the
fact that Atlas Shrugged is a "what-if" story.

(B) As a matter of fact, science and technology play major roles in the
story, ranging from Rearden Metal and the lost Galt Motor to the
Harmonizer and invisibility screens.

[Rod Speed]

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote
>>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

>>> Yes.

>> Nope, no science involve.

> You're wrong.

Nope.

>>> Certainly as much as _1984_.

>> There is more science in that.

> You're wrong again.

Nope.

[Rod Speed]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote

> Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote

>> It may well, however, prevent me from voting for him.

> I can see it helping a bit, but the issues in this campaign are so
> clearly drawn. Since Obama didn't do anything irresponsible or
> precipitous in respect of Afghanistan or Iraq, one would expect
> the election to be decided on the economy, not on security issues.

The real reason Afghanistan or Iraq won't be a major election
issue is that the US is already mostly out of Iraq and the withdrawal
from Afghanistan has already stupidly been announced and because
the voters care a hell of a lot more about the economy when its in its
current state than they ever do about either.

> Pork-barrel politics and the committee system, however,
> makes it unlikely the American people will give Obama
> filibuster-proof majorities in both houses.

Its not that so much as the fact that he'll never be able to pull
off another stupid stunt like his previous one about CHANGE
that did in fact produce absolutely no change whatever.

That's pissed a hell of a lot of those who did vote for
him off and the only thing that will save him on that
is the repugs stupidly going for a mormon bishop.

> Thus, giving in to blackmail in the hope of a few
> crumbs of useful economic action, versus Obama
> being allowed to do nothing, is a temptation.

The reality is that the voters do want some action
on the economy and may well decided that Obama
has delivered sweet fuck all on that and that even a
mormon bishop is unlikely to be any worse on that.

Corse it remains to be seen what the voters will make
of his venture capital background once the Dems
expose the worst of what he got up to in that regard.

That's one thing Obama has going for him, not too
much outright sleaze and corruption in his past.

But he'll have one hell of a problem bullshitting
away the fact that he has done sweet fuck all
economically except arguably bail out GM.

[Rod Speed]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote

>>>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

>>>> Yes.

>>> Nope, no science involve.

>> You're wrong.

>>>> Certainly as much as _1984_.

>>> There is more science in that.

>> You're wrong again.

> Agreed.

Have fun listing any science at all in Rand's
silly little fantasy for very simple 'minds'

> I also question whether SF needs to involve (physical) science.

The letter S is there for a reason. It isnt JUST fiction.

[Don Kuenz]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
> I also question whether SF needs to involve (physical)
> science.

An interesting, and therefore difficult question.

_The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction_ argues that Edgar Allan
Poe was the first writer to experiment with the science-fictional
method. _The Conversation of Eiros and Charmion_ speculates about
earth's destruction through entering a comet's tail that poisons its
atmosphere. OK, so perhaps that particular story involves the physical
science of astronomy.

_The Colloquy of Monos and Una_ speculates about a sixth sense
manifesting itself in the afterlife. OK, any notion of a sixth sense
unequivocally falls outside of the domain of the five senses found in
physical, empirical science. _A Tale of the Ragged Mountains_ uses
mesmerism. Does hypnosis fall under the domain of physical science?

--
Don Kuenz

[Rod Speed]

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote
>> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote
>>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

>>> Yes.

>> Nope, no science involve.

> (A) SF can mean "speculative fiction"

Yes, but that's clearly not what was originally intended in the original
question.

> and thus would qualify under the fact that Atlas Shrugged is a "what-if"
> story.

Sure.

> (B) As a matter of fact, science and technology play major roles in the
> story, ranging from Rearden Metal and the lost Galt Motor to the
> Harmonizer and invisibility screens.

Nope, only minor roles.

[Robert Carnegie]

Rod, I still have the impression that you're Australian. Did I get confused again?

[Robert Carnegie]

But never mind that, what SF does /he/ like?

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 09:33:17 -0600, Howard Brazee
<how...@brazee.net> wrote in
<news:do1238t6fj4asp3o1...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:02:41 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

>>>> Yes.

>>> Nope, no science involve.

>>You're wrong.

>>>> Certainly as much as _1984_.

>>> There is more science in that.

>>You're wrong again.

> Agreed. I also question whether SF needs to involve
> (physical) science.

So do I.

Brian

[Walter Bushell]

In article <k0mu1j$4m5$1...@dont-email.me>,

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>
> Submitted for your consideration:
> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>
> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>

> Brenda

The realism of the BOM in modern language! What's not to like?

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <k0ohei$kde$2...@dont-email.me>,
Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 8/18/2012 11:32 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article<t2bv289e5jpt6prl9...@4ax.com>,

> > Howard Brazee<how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:18:16 -0400, Brenda Clough

> >> <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
> >>>
> >>> Submitted for your consideration:
> >>> http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
> >>>
> >>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
> >>

> >> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
> >

> > Fantasy?
> >
>
>
> Not only is it fantasy, it is high fantasy.
>
> Brenda

High as in ergot poisoning type high?

[Walter Bushell]

In article <M8yKv...@kithrup.com>,

djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> In article <5219c86a-aabf-4b7e...@u2g2000pbl.googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> >On Aug 17, 8:18 pm, Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
> >

> >However, as a Mormon, he may not be familiar with the connection
> >between that novel and another faith, as he probably doesn't read
> >things like the book with the volcano on the cover.

> >
> >Also, he might be sympathetic to religious movements that are
> >disparaged by others, which is good in legitimate cases like Amahdiyya
> >Islam or Falun Gong.
>
> For some values of "good".
>

> ObSF or I guess it's Fantasy: Turtledove's _The Case of the Toxic
> Spell Dump_, in which hundreds of random civilians get turned
> into "collateral damage" in an effort by worshippers to summon
> Huitzilopochtli.

It wasn't collateral damage, the followers of Huitzilopochtli were
trying to feed their deity whose proper food was human blood. For
them, ripping out the hearts of bystanders and putting them on the
altar was the rite thing to do.

One of Turtledove's best works, if you appreciate puns.

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 19, 1:37 pm, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:

> But never mind that, what SF does /he/ like?

About the only President about whose literary tastes I have accessible
data within myself is John F. Kennedy; I recall that he admitted to
having read some of the novels of one Ian Fleming featuring the
fictional secret agent James Bond.

John Savard

[Rod Speed]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote

> Rod, I still have the impression that you're Australian. Did I get
> confused again?

Nope, you got that right.

[Quadibloc]

However, the Internet is rich in information:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44214177/ns/politics-white_house/t/obamas-summer-reading-list-includes-lots-fiction/

covers one vacation; this article

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/08/14/obama-s-book-club.html

goes further back, but except for "Brave New World", which was
probably bought for his daughter's reading assignments, I noted no
science-fiction.

John Savard

[Rod Speed]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote
> Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote

>> Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote

>>> But never mind that, what SF does /he/ like?

>> About the only President about whose literary tastes I have
>> accessible data within myself is John F. Kennedy; I recall that
>> he admitted to having read some of the novels of one Ian
>> Fleming featuring the fictional secret agent James Bond.

> However, the Internet is rich in information:

> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44214177/ns/politics-white_house/t/obamas-summer-reading-list-includes-lots-fiction/

> covers one vacation; this article

> http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2011/08/14/obama-s-book-club.html

> goes further back, but except for "Brave New World", which was
> probably bought for his daughter's reading assignments, I noted
> no science-fiction.

Its less clear which of those he actually LIKES tho.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Bullpuckey. The Galt Motor is one of the driving MacGuffins of one of
the major plot threads; its existence, the mystery of its creation and
the disappearance of its creator, the connection to that and Doctor
Robert Stadler, whose presence caused numerous important shifts in plot
events, these are profoundly important in the development of the plot
and lead to Dagny finally discovering what's going on.

Rearden Metal is the center of several plot events that drive the major
action of the novel, ranging from the building of the Galt Line to the
seizure of Rearden's plants.

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 03:47:43 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>The real reason Afghanistan or Iraq won't be a major election
>issue is that the US is already mostly out of Iraq and the withdrawal
>from Afghanistan has already stupidly been announced and because
>the voters care a hell of a lot more about the economy when its in its
>current state than they ever do about either.

I don't know if that's true. The real reason is that the two
candidates don't disagree that we need to be in such foreign wars.

Same bosses (follow the money).

[Robert Carnegie]

Well, you seem to be pretty annoyed with President Obama, but I don't see
that you or I have much of a right to comment (I'm writing from Scotland).

What about his health care reform?

[Butch Malahide]

On Aug 17, 9:18 pm, Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>
> Submitted for your consideration:http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>

> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.

That's reassuring. I imagine a president has to read a lot of tedious
and badly written stuff in the course of his job. From what I hear
(haven't tried it myself) a man who can read _Battlefield Earth_ can
read anything. Maybe our next president will have the stamina to
actually read some of the bills he signs.

[Butch Malahide]

On Aug 17, 11:33 pm, djhe...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> In article <k0mu1j$4m...@dont-email.me>,

> Brenda Clough  <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >I am addressing Americans of voting age.
>
> >Submitted for your consideration:
> >http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/mitt-romney-reads-2012-8/
>
> >One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>

> Not going to change my opinion any.

With a recommendation like that, you're *still* not going to read it?

[Butch Malahide]

On Aug 18, 4:06 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> Brenda Clough <BrendaWri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Aug 17, 8:18 pm, Brenda Clough<BrendaWri...@yahoo.com>  wrote:

> >>> One of his favorite novels is BATTLEFIELD EARTH.
>

> >> However, as a Mormon, he may not be familiar with the connection
> >> between that novel and another faith, as he probably doesn't read
> >> things like the book with the volcano on the cover.
>

> >You assume then that none of his minions, aides or advisers know it,
> >either.  Nor his kids, friends or wife.  You say bubble, I say bubble.
>
> That's sufficient but not necessary; all that's necessary is that none of them
> have TOLD him about it, and he hasn't found it out for himself on teh
> Intarwebs yet.

Should we consider the possibility that he *doesn't* choose his
fiction on the basis of the author's religion?

[Butch Malahide]

On Aug 18, 11:05 am, Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Aug 18, 5:22 am, Robert Carnegie <rja.carne...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > Yeah... did you notice who wrote BATTLEFIELD EARTH?
>
> A science-fiction writer who had gone into semi-retirement, known for
> writing "Typewriter in the Sky" and "Final Blackout"...
>
> Really. Some people may not be aware of his other claim to fame and/or
> notoriety.

_Fear_?

[Rod Speed]

Just a minor part of what the book was about.

[Rod Speed]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>> The real reason Afghanistan or Iraq won't be a major election
>> issue is that the US is already mostly out of Iraq and the withdrawal
>> from Afghanistan has already stupidly been announced and because
>> the voters care a hell of a lot more about the economy when its in its
>> current state than they ever do about either.

> I don't know if that's true.

I do.

> The real reason is that the two candidates don't
> disagree that we need to be in such foreign wars.

That's not what the voters care about currently.

> Same bosses

Nope. There are no bosses.

> (follow the money).

Can't particularly with Obama's first campaign,
different money entirely to what drove McCain's

[Rod Speed]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote

>>> Rod, I still have the impression that you're Australian.
>>> Did I get confused again?

>> Nope, you got that right.

> Well, you seem to be pretty annoyed with President Obama,

Nope. I just realise that he lied about CHANGE and produced
sweet fuck all of that when he got to drive that particular bus.

Just another silver tongued lawyer/pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.

And I believe it was completely stupid to have announced when
the US would pull out of Afghanistan, essentially because the
Talibums now just tell everyone there who cares that all they
have to do is wait till then and the result is inevitable for them.

Not that I think in makes any sense at all to be even attempting to
get them to have a decent democratic system. Taint gunna happen.

> but I don't see that you or I have much of a right to comment

Corse we do on the basics like that.

> (I'm writing from Scotland).

> What about his health care reform?

Hopeless. Its completely stupid to just make health
insurance compulsory. He should have gone for making
medicare universal, just like virtually every other modern
first and second world country has done now.

Corse his supporters would claim that that wasn't politically
possible and that's certainly an arguable position.

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:27:37 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Well, you seem to be pretty annoyed with President Obama,
>
>Nope. I just realise that he lied about CHANGE and produced
>sweet fuck all of that when he got to drive that particular bus.

There's been a lot of change. All of those programs that the
Republicans liked all of a sudden got turned into ultra-socialist
programs when Democrats supported them. There certainly was change
in the Right Wing politics of this country.

[Howard Brazee]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:20:15 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I don't know if that's true.
>
>I do.

You know a lot of stuff which isn't true. And you are very
determined to let everybody here know.

[Brenda Clough]

If we must talk about health care, you in Australia or Scotland are to
be envied.

Brenda


--
My latest novel SPEAK TO OUR DESIRES is available exclusively from Book
View Cafe.
http://www.bookviewcafe.com/index.php/Brenda-Clough/Novels/Speak-to-Our-Desires-Chapter-01

[Brenda Clough]

He should (but does he?) read widely. But, even if L.Ron is his fave
author -ever-, such lists should be vetted by the staff. The briefest
survey of widely available data would reveal that not only is the work
not well regarded, and the source of an amazingly sucky movie, but much
interesting data about Scientology. A prudent politician would then
quietly drop L. Ron and replace it with some equivalent author. I
suggest Zenna Henderson, who has many works set in the West, and has the
further virtue of being dead (and thus not able to argue -- this is why
Orson Scott Card, otherwise a sterling choice, would be imprudent) and
female.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <do1238t6fj4asp3o1...@4ax.com>, Howard Brazee
<how...@brazee.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:02:41 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
><b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
>>>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>>
>>>> Yes.
>>
>>> Nope, no science involve.
>>

>>You're wrong.
>>
>>>> Certainly as much as _1984_.
>>
>>> There is more science in that.
>>
>>You're wrong again.
>
>Agreed. I also question whether SF needs to involve (physical)
>science.

Or whether fiction that includes science, such as a novel that contains
descriptions of metalurgy, or perhaps chemistry is science fiction.

Arent' there those who think that SF is more accurately described as
speculative fiction. Is there Science Fiction set in the present day?

--
charles

[Brenda Clough]

On 8/19/2012 10:33 PM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:27:37 +1000, "Rod Speed"
> <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Well, you seem to be pretty annoyed with President Obama,
>>
>> Nope. I just realise that he lied about CHANGE and produced
>> sweet fuck all of that when he got to drive that particular bus.
>
>
> There's been a lot of change. All of those programs that the
> Republicans liked all of a sudden got turned into ultra-socialist
> programs when Democrats supported them. There certainly was change
> in the Right Wing politics of this country.
>

There is only one change I care about. And that's Osama "Fish-Food" bin
Laden. The change worked in his status earns Obama my vote. My
son-in-law has just arrived in Afghanistan for his second deployment,
and this one change has significantly improved both his and my
daughter's chances.

[Paul Ciszek]

In article <722ef137-f6c0-49ea...@q7g2000pbj.googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Aug 18, 3:40 pm, Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> Now that I know he "is not in favor of his religion by any means", I
>> am reassured.
>
>...because poor taste in SF is not, by itself, enough reason to
>disqualify someone for the office of President.

...but it should be.

--
Please reply to: | "We establish no religion in this country, we
pciszek at panix dot com | command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor
Autoreply is disabled | will we ever. Church and state are, and must
| remain, separate." --Ronald Reagan, 10/26/1984

[Charles Bishop]

In article <a9cmld...@mid.individual.net>, "Rod Speed"

<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote

>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>>> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote

>>>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>
>>>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>
>>>> Yes.
>
>>> Nope, no science involve.
>
>> You're wrong.
>

>Nope.

>
>>>> Certainly as much as _1984_.
>
>>> There is more science in that.
>
>> You're wrong again.
>

>Nope.

Others have mentioned the science in the Galt motor, Reardon steel and a
couple of other things. Do you consider these plot elements science? All,
except for perhaps Reardon Steel, are beyond what is possible today.

--
charles

[Rod Speed]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>>> Well, you seem to be pretty annoyed with President Obama,

>> Nope. I just realise that he lied about CHANGE and produced
>> sweet fuck all of that when he got to drive that particular bus.

> There's been a lot of change.

Not that he personally has been involved in producing.

> All of those programs that the Republicans liked all of a sudden got
> turned into ultra-socialist programs when Democrats supported them.

Sure, but that wasn't his doing.

> There certainly was change in the Right Wing politics of this country.

Sure, but that wasn't his doing either.

[Rod Speed]

Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>> The real reason Afghanistan or Iraq won't be a major election
>>>> issue is that the US is already mostly out of Iraq and the withdrawal
>>>> from Afghanistan has already stupidly been announced and because
>>>> the voters care a hell of a lot more about the economy when its in its
>>>> current state than they ever do about either.

>>> I don't know if that's true.

>> I do.

> You know a lot of stuff which isn't true.

Easy to claim. Have fun actually substantiating that claim.

> And you are very determined to let everybody here know.

Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?

[Rod Speed]

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote
> Howard Brazee wrote

>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>>>> Well, you seem to be pretty annoyed with President Obama,

>>> Nope. I just realise that he lied about CHANGE and produced
>>> sweet fuck all of that when he got to drive that particular bus.

>> There's been a lot of change. All of those programs that the
>> Republicans liked all of a sudden got turned into ultra-socialist
>> programs when Democrats supported them. There certainly
>> was change in the Right Wing politics of this country.

> There is only one change I care about.

Separate matter to what the voters who
decided they did want change voted for tho.

> And that's Osama "Fish-Food" bin Laden.

That wasn't anything to do with Obama.

> The change worked in his status earns Obama my vote.

More fool you.

> My son-in-law has just arrived in Afghanistan for his second
> deployment, and this one change has significantly improved
> both his and my daughter's chances.

Nope. bin Laden had stopped being relevant to either of their chances
LONG ago and killing him wasn't relevant to their chances either.

Corse he should have been executed, but that's a separate matter entirely.

[Rod Speed]

Charles Bishop <ctbi...@earthlink.net> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote
>>>>> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>>>>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?

>>>>> Yes.

>>>> Nope, no science involve.

>>> You're wrong.

>> Nope.

>>>>> Certainly as much as _1984_.

>>>> There is more science in that.

>>> You're wrong again.

>> Nope.

> Others have mentioned the science in the Galt motor, Reardon steel and
> a couple of other things. Do you consider these plot elements science?

No more science fiction than a novel that involves say a metallurgist
or doctor doing what metallurgists or doctors etc normally do is.

> All, except for perhaps Reardon Steel, are beyond what is possible today.

Sure, but they are very minor parts of what the pathetic fantasy is about.

[Robert Bannister]

On 20/08/12 2:09 AM, Don Kuenz wrote:

> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>>
>> I also question whether SF needs to involve (physical)
>> science.
>

> An interesting, and therefore difficult question.
>
> _The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction_ argues that Edgar Allan
> Poe was the first writer to experiment with the science-fictional
> method. _The Conversation of Eiros and Charmion_ speculates about
> earth's destruction through entering a comet's tail that poisons its
> atmosphere. OK, so perhaps that particular story involves the physical
> science of astronomy.
>
> _The Colloquy of Monos and Una_ speculates about a sixth sense
> manifesting itself in the afterlife. OK, any notion of a sixth sense
> unequivocally falls outside of the domain of the five senses found in
> physical, empirical science. _A Tale of the Ragged Mountains_ uses
> mesmerism. Does hypnosis fall under the domain of physical science?

Certainly the sf community embraced telepathy, telekinesis and
telewhatever for quite some time, so they weren't felt to be
unscientific then.


--
Robert Bannister

[Don Kuenz]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> Bullpuckey. The Galt Motor is one of the driving MacGuffins of one of
> the major plot threads; its existence, the mystery of its creation and
> the disappearance of its creator, the connection to that and Doctor
> Robert Stadler, whose presence caused numerous important shifts in plot
> events, these are profoundly important in the development of the plot
> and lead to Dagny finally discovering what's going on.
>
> Rearden Metal is the center of several plot events that drive the major

> action of the novel, ranging from the building of the Galt Line to the
> seizure of Rearden's plants.

SciFiDimensions concurs.

***

But Is It Science Fiction? - Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged
http://www.scifidimensions.com/May00/books_ayn_rand.htm

.. Webster's defines science fiction as "dealing principally with the
impact of actual or imagined science upon society or individuals."
Science fiction has always shown how new technology could affect
people; how new inventions might change humanity. In this sense,
Atlas Shrugged is certainly science fiction. It is impossible to
imagine how this book could work without including the inventions
discussed above. Nonetheless, the major theme of the novel is not
technology per se. Technology is symbolic of the mind as man's
primary means of survival. Rand herself described the central theme
of the book as "the role of the mind in man's existence."

Ayn Rand actually had a few things to say about science fiction (which
she lumped into the broader category of fantasy). In her lectures on
The Art of Fiction (originally a series of audio recordings, recently
edited and released in book form) she discusses what she calls "special
forms of literature." Rand saw literature as valid only if it served
to communicate something of the author's values; by extension, every
aspect of literature (plot, theme, characterization and style) must
serve to further the author's message. Therefore, science fiction is
valid only if the scientific aspect is integral and necessary to tell
the story. She freely admitted that Atlas Shrugged was purposefully
set in the near-future (of the 1950s); thus the technological advances
are integral to the story. Which makes Atlas Shrugged valid as science
fiction.

***

Note the old school use of two spaces after the end of each sentence in
that excerpt.

--
Don Kuenz

[Quadibloc]

On Aug 19, 5:47 pm, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's reassuring. I imagine a president has to read a lot of tedious
> and badly written stuff in the course of his job. From what I hear
> (haven't tried it myself) a man who can read _Battlefield Earth_ can
> read anything. Maybe our next president will have the stamina to
> actually read some of the bills he signs.

LOL!

However, our local public library had copies, and I read one. It
wasn't that bad. On the other hand, I did quit reading that multi-
volume work of his that came out shortly after.

John Savard

[Butch Malahide]

On Aug 19, 9:59 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?

I noticed you've been doing that consistently. Is Australian spelling
the opposite of British spelling, then? Instead of adding a
superfluous u to words like "color" and "honor" like the Brits do, you
guys subtract a u from words like "course"?

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, August 20, 2012 4:47:36 AM UTC+1, Charles Bishop wrote:
> Others have mentioned the science in the Galt motor, Reardon steel and a
> couple of other things. Do you consider these plot elements science? All,
> except for perhaps Reardon Steel, are beyond what is possible today.

As for whether _1984_ is or isn't /more/ science-fictional than
_Atlas Shrugged_ ... well, every home has a two-way "telescreen",
through which the /actual/ Thought Police can listen to you and
maybe watch you, but I don't recall if there's anything for
/you/ to watch, or just radio. And, apart from that?

[Rod Speed]

Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote

>> Corse you never ever do anything like that yourself, eh ?

> I noticed you've been doing that consistently.

Yeah, I have a few spelling quirks that I choose to use.

The other obvious one is to use ys instead of ies for plurals.

I just choose to do it that way.

> Is Australian spelling the opposite of British spelling, then?

Nope. We do basically use the british spelling. I choose to not use it
myself.

> Instead of adding a superfluous u to words like "color" and "honor"
> like the Brits do, you guys subtract a u from words like "course"?

Nope, that one isn't that common here, although
I'm not the only one that does it that way.

[Rod Speed]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote

I meant it more in the sense of the thought police etc.

Sure, it's a bit iffy whether that is science or not, I agree its quite
arguable.

[David DeLaney]

Don Kuenz <gar...@crcomp.net> wrote:
>_A Tale of the Ragged Mountains_ uses
>mesmerism. Does hypnosis fall under the domain of physical science?

Mesmerism involved some sort of mesmeric fluid, as a theory, so yeah, it
would have at the time. NOW it's mental science, but back then the limits
of material involvement were less well understood.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>to the seizure of Rearden's plants.

Never having read it, I wackyparsed this, and the resulting plotline
soudns like it'd be more interesting...

Dave "for want of an l the afterlife was lost" DeLaney

[David DeLaney]

Brenda Clough <Brenda...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I suggest Zenna Henderson, who has many works set in the West, and has the
>further virtue of being dead (and thus not able to argue -- this is why
>Orson Scott Card, otherwise a sterling choice, would be imprudent) and
>female.

But ... then he might LEARN something about compassion and tolerance! His
handlers would _never_ permit that!

Dave "plus which there'd be the 'why are these People not _Mormons_??' issue"

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, August 20, 2012 11:30:45 AM UTC+1, David DeLaney wrote:
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >to the seizure of Rearden's plants.
>
> Never having read it, I wackyparsed this, and the resulting plotline
> soudns like it'd be more interesting...

BBC Radio 4 Extra is currently running a daily reading from
_The Day of the Triffids_, if that's what you had in mind.

Of course another exotic plant is orchids. This may amuse,
depending on your awareness of the origin of the name.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 8/20/12 6:59 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, August 20, 2012 11:30:45 AM UTC+1, David DeLaney wrote:
>> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> to the seizure of Rearden's plants.
>>
>> Never having read it, I wackyparsed this, and the resulting plotline
>> soudns like it'd be more interesting...
>
> BBC Radio 4 Extra is currently running a daily reading from
> _The Day of the Triffids_, if that's what you had in mind.
>

Since he said "for want of an l" later, I would guess he meant,

"seized Rearden's pants".

Which was more Dagny's job.

> Of course another exotic plant is orchids. This may amuse,
> depending on your awareness of the origin of the name.
>

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Kip Williams]

David DeLaney wrote, On 8/20/12 6:30 AM:

> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> to the seizure of Rearden's plants.
>
> Never having read it, I wackyparsed this, and the resulting plotline
> soudns like it'd be more interesting...
>
> Dave "for want of an l the afterlife was lost" DeLaney

It's remarkably easy to see _Atlas Shrugged_ as romance between
industrialists, with Dagny as a sort of beard or prop or trophy who
thinks she's more important than she is to them. Galt's Gulch will be a
big surprise to her when she catches on.


Kip W
rasfw

[Michael Stemper]

In article <a9cnbu...@mid.individual.net>, "Rod Speed" <rod.sp...@gmail.com> writes:
>Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote

>> Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote

>>>>>> Question: Is _Atlas Shrugged_ SF?
>
>>>>> Yes.

Absolutely.

>>>> Nope, no science involve.
>
>>> You're wrong.

As he usually is.

>>>>> Certainly as much as _1984_.
>
>>>> There is more science in that.
>
>>> You're wrong again.
>

>> Agreed.
>
>Have fun listing any science at all in Rand's
>silly little fantasy for very simple 'minds'

Rearden Metal is a newly-developed alloy (developed on-screen, in fact)
that plays a significant role in the story.

Galt's engine not only was a major MacGuffin for much of the "action"
in Part 2, but also played a real role in later events. I seem to recall
that he had a special technology for radio, as well.

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Life's too important to take seriously.

[Don Kuenz]

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's remarkably easy to see _Atlas Shrugged_ as romance between
> industrialists, with Dagny as a sort of beard or prop or trophy who
> thinks she's more important than she is to them. Galt's Gulch will be a
> big surprise to her when she catches on.

A romance that begins in earnest after Rand's alter ego Dagny accepts
the bracelet from Reardon's wife. It eventually moves on to a "classic
road trip romance" [1] in search of the MacGuffin.

I'm a romantic at heart and enjoyed the road trip scenes of the movie.
The general location reminded me of _Somewhere In Time_. (A friend who
frequents upper Michigan counsels me against over-romanticizing the
tourist trap know as Mackinac Island in my imagination.)

Note:

1. See "Science Fiction romance" under
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_novel

--
Don Kuenz