The novels of Mercedes Lackey (includes a long rant, free of charge!)
Steve Parker
stuff (Findovar gazed longingly into Jomo's brown, limpid eyes and
knew: she would never be alone again!) and frankly, Lackey
has...issues. Which is fine, I suppose, but I wish she'd get herself
to a therapist or something and get past them; I'm getting kind of
sick of reading about them. Every character comes from a BAD home,
finds a new home with friends and their magical horsies and either
reconciles with the family or not. And everyone is either disgustingly
icky-sweet loveable or an EEEEeeeeEeee-vil, cruel monster. But
somehow I enjoy Lackey's books, despite myself.
Except for the covers. My god, the covers are horrific. They feature
sensitive, big-eyed, wimpy, sissy horses and the sensitive, big-eyed,
wimpy, sissy people who ride them (done in shocking pinks and
lavenders) and they're all
A) embarrassing to walk around with and
B) make me vaguely nauseous
And yet...her world is neat, the "everything is awwww-right now" theme
IS kinda addictive wish fulfillment and she's a damned compelling
storyteller. .
Aargh.
Oh, and she's co-written a billion novels. I don't care. I'm ignoring
all the co-written stuff.
Please note, that for all my mocking tone and sarcasm about
the...er...weaknesses in her writing, I still buy all her damned magic
horsie books, so what the hell do I know? She's addictive.
Anyway , spoilers ahoy.
HERALDS OF VALDEMAR
1 ARROWS OF THE QUEEN (1987)
2 ARROW'S FLIGHT (1987)
3 ARROW'S FALL (1988)
Talia comes from an icky-nasty village. She can get married at 14(?)
or join the church. She doesn't want either. She meets up with a magic
horsie who takes her away and to Professor Xavier's School
for...er...Herald School. Apparently, years ago, a guy broke away from
a cruel king with a whole bunch of people. He was worried that he too,
would become cruel, so he prayed and the Gods sent him a couple of
magic horsies. Only those who are good and true and good can hang out
with their "lifebonded" magic horsie. To be ruler, you must have a
magic-horsie companion. If you don't get picked, you don't rule. Lots
of other magic-horsies showed up and their human companions generally
function as judges and police. Except one: The King/Queen's Own. This
is the Herald who's job it is to be the King/Queen's best friend
(including keeping 'em honest). Talia is the new Queen's Own. The
Queen's kid is a spoiled brat and Talia, from her background knows how
to deal with spoiled kids. And she does. She's tormented by the rich
kids but she gets better. There's a whole bunch of "Does he love
me"/"Do I love him or *him*" stuff that gets fairly tedious fairly
quickly. Oh, and she wins a war with the evil country.
If you loved Anne McCaffery's _Dragonsinger_ stuff there's (ahem) a
lot of (ahem) similarities here. Not bad, not great.
MAGE WARS
1 THE BLACK GRYPHON (1993) WITH LARRY DIXON
2 THE WHITE GRYPHON (1994) WITH LARRY DIXON
3 THE SILVER GRYPHON (1996) WITH LARRY DIXON
Set back in prehistory, this series is mostly forgettable but sets up
Talia's world (there was a wizard war between a nice wizard and a
naughty wizard that left huge pockets of magical "pollution" and huge
"dinosaur killer"-sized craters in the landscape.) Unfortunately, it's
mostly off panel. The naughty wizard will show up again later.
Forgettable.
LAST HERALD-MAGE
1 MAGIC'S PAWN (1989)
2 MAGIC'S PROMISE (1989)
3 MAGIC'S PRICE (1990)
Vanyel is gay. His dad and his dad's best friend, the gym coach are
MACHO. Vanyel is also a sniveling wimp (this is not a comment on his
sexual orientation. I'd say the same thing if he were straight).
Vanyel gets the snot beaten out of him physically and emotionally by
Dad and the Gym Coach (fencing instructor, but she's playing the 'evil
gym coach' card). A magic horsie shows up to rescue Vanyel who spends
far too much time sniveling about how dreadful things are and how
lonely he is. He meets a nice young guy. They fall in wuv.
Icky-in-wuv. The guy promptly dies. Vanyel mopes for 15(or so) years,
incidentally making up with dad and the gym coach (which I didn't buy
for a SECOND. Dad's had personality transplant (he's no longer evil,
he's just befuddled) and the Gym Coach was just misunderstood.
Uh-huh..
Then, in a disgusting/creepy scene, he meets the reincarnation of his
dead lover and they fall in love all over again. Whoopee! If
reincarnation is real, then what's the point? What new thing are they
gonna learn? The whole way this is handled is yuk of the highest
order. This poor kid doesn't have a chance to learn anything because
his 'soul' and Vanyel are mated. On the other hand, since they're
soul-mates, it means that Vanyel doesn't have to take any emotional
risks. Bleach. Luckily, both of 'em die pretty quickly saving the
country in an oh-so-tragic death. And their ghosts get the joy of
hanging around a forest for all eternity.
And why are all of Lackey's gay characters, sensitive, snivelly
whiners (OR Danny-Kaye-esqe happy-go-lucky?) and all thin, dainty
wisps? I applaud her for using gay characters. I just wish she'd give
us some variety. If you're going to show us positive gay characters,
please, ML, quit with the stereotypes: big hairy guys who have no
innate gift for music or arts can ALSO be gay.
VOWS AND HONOR
THE OATHBOUND (1988)
OATHBREAKERS (1989)
These are actually a lot of fun: No magic horsies anywhere in the
foreground: two women, a fighter and a sorceress have adventures. I
also think that one or both of them are fix-ups.
Highly recommended.
KEROWYN'S TALE
BY THE SWORD (1991)
Fantastic, except for the end part, it's just a rollicking good
adventure story of a woman with a magic sword (inherited from the
characters in _The Oathbound_.) Loads of fun, perhaps Lackey's best
(except for the "Magic horsies show up at the end to make everything
all right part)
Highly recommended.
MAGE WINDS
WINDS OF FATE (1991)
WINDS OF CHANGE (1992)
WINDS OF FURY (1993)
Remember back in the _Arrows_ book? Remember the spoiled princess?
She's all grown up and off to find out what happened to all the magic.
She's got a magic horsie of her own and she's got the magic sword from
_By The Sword_.
Meanwhile, a bunch of (ahem) American Indians (more-or-less) know how
to do magic and have magic birdies instead of magic horsies. She meets
them and learns magic and falls in love.
Meanwhile, remember back in the _Gryphon_ novels, the naughty wizard?
He's back and possessing some kid who's such a gawddamned sniveler
that I desperately wanted the naughty wizard to win, just to shut the
kid up.
Anyway, the badguy is snuffed, the Princess Brat finds twu-wuv with
one of the Indians AND learns how to be a wizard. Actually, except for
the whiney possessed kid, it's not bad at all.
MAGE STORMS
1 STORM WARNING (1994)
2 STORM RISING (1995)
3 STORM BREAKING (1996)
There's an eco-disaster a'brewin' as a result of the mage-wars. Some
of the explosion went through time and is causing havoc all over the
countryside. Meanwhile the (no-longer entirely) evil empire that the
original king broke from has rediscovered where all those serfs went.
Not bad at all. Lots of stuff about the world/gods/magic
horsies-owls-cats, etc.
OWLFLIGHT
OWLFLIGHT (1997) WITH LARRY DIXON
OWLSIGHT (1998) WITH LARRY DIXON
OWLKNIGHT (1999) WITH LARRY DIXON
SSDD (Same S...stuff, different day). Kid from a village that's wiped
out gets a magic owl from the Indians (who have magic birdies, instead
of magic horsies) and learns magic.
Mediocre.
BURNING BRIGHTLY
Set after(?) the Vanyel books, it's about a kid who (can you guess? I
*knew* you could) comes from a home where he's just not understood. He
finds a magic horsie and acceptance at the School for gifted Heralds
and now his family is sorry they all treated him so bad. Then he dies
tragically. Oh, and his previous life's lover (maybe. I'm not clear on
that part) is reincarnated as his magic horsie. Or maybe his magic
horsie is just his soul-mate. The whole relationship had the same sort
of "She's not actually doing anything disgusting, but it still gives
me the creeps" flavor that a lot of later Piers Anthony does.
DIANA TREGARDE
1 BURNING WATER (1989)
2 CHILDREN OF THE NIGHT (1990)
3 JINX HIGH (1991)
She's a psychic investigator. Lackey apparently quit writing them
because of psycho-fan/stalkers. I've hear pretty good things about
these, but haven't read 'em.
Seriously: for all my griping about her weaknesses, she's like
cheese-doodles. Not very good, very little substance, but damn, you
can devour a whole bag in a matter of minutes and still want more.
What I really, REALLY want from Mercedes Lackey:
1) A viewpoint character from a happy & healthy family who has good
relationships with his/her parents/siblings (not a second banana
character friend-of-the-hero who's provided for contrast or sniveling
purposes: "If only MY family were so loving and kind <sob>").. In
addition, I never, EVER want to see the "My parents were meaaaaaan to
me back when and here I am now, powerful, confident and famous, and
aren't THEY sorry they treated me bad!" theme. She's done this in just
about every Valdemar story and, frankly, it's wearing way thin.
2) Enough with the lovey-dovey crap with the horsies. Yes. When
heralds and horsies meet, they fall in love. Enough with the
page-after-page "Their eyes met across the room. Longingly he stroked
her mane and he knew he would get unconditional love from now on"
crap. And Merc? If you have to give the characters an "unconditional
love" safety net so that they have no real emotional risks, at least
deal with the consequences of it in detail...Imagine a husband who got
picked by a Companion... imagine how much having someone that you're
more emotionally intimate with than your spouse could screw up a
marriage. Or a kid who wants to go into the family business who
doesn't want to be a Herald. Or a coward who gets chosen against his
will. A draft is never a happy as you make it. (PS: Soul mates are
another way to give "unconditional love" to your heroes so they don't
have to take risks. Risks are GOOD.)
3) Gay people are diverse. IE: There can be gay people who aren't
tall, thin, delicate, sensitive, light-haired, artistic, and (usually)
snivelly. I want the next gay hero you write to be a short, hairy,
overweight, surly, tone-deaf, uncultured, self-confident, dark-haired
bar-room brawler.
4) While we're at it, how 'bout a villain who's wrong, not Eeee-vil?
It's possible to honestly believe that you have a better
method/system/etc without being the type that applies red-hot-pincers
to nipples.
5) Explore the consequences of having a society where a group of
magic-nanny horsies absolve people from any sort of responsibility:
how much interest in the government would there be in Valdemar, given
that magic horsies guarantees that the rulers will be "good". So why
should anyone care what the powers that be are doing?
I like the world of Valdemar, I like the mysteries she's created
(there's one country that's got ...something...protecting it. She's
done a very credible job of building the mystery up and dropping hints
without belaboring it) and I (despite it all) like the
wish-fulfillment stuff. In much smaller doses. But while Lackey has
the potential to grow into a much better writer, she also has the
potential to turn into Piers "Grind out another one" Anthony. Here's
hoping she allows herself to grow as a writer: she could be fantastic
if she does.
Steve
--
My review pages have moved.AGAIN. The new address is
http://home.attbi.com/~sparker9/home.html
Steve Parker
Steve Parker
wrote:
>Oh, and she's co-written a billion novels. I don't care. I'm ignoring
>all the co-written stuff.
Umm...Except for the co-written Valdemar stuff, of course.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>And Merc? If you have to give the characters an "unconditional
>love" safety net so that they have no real emotional risks, at least
>deal with the consequences of it in detail...
Purely trivial note: Mercedes Lackey is called "Misty" by her friends
and family. Not "Merc," which had me wondering where mercenary
soldiers came into the picture.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 3/2/02
My latest novel is THE DRAGON SOCIETY, published by Tor.
Trent Goulding
Nice overview of Lackey, thanks. I'm not particularly interested in
reading her stuff myself, but these synopses give me a little better
notion of what others are talking about on occasion.
> KEROWYN'S TALE
> BY THE SWORD (1991)
>Fantastic, except for the end part, it's just a rollicking good
>adventure story of a woman with a magic sword (inherited from the
>characters in _The Oathbound_.) Loads of fun, perhaps Lackey's best
>(except for the "Magic horsies show up at the end to make everything
>all right part)
So a few months ago, I figured I'd finally get around to giving
Lackey her one chance to impress me (you know, the standard "author
I haven't read yet" contract), and I had it on good authority that
this novel was the one most likely to fit my tastes.
I didn't care for it. And that includes the beginning and middle
sections, *before* the magic horsies showed up. If this is the best
she has to offer, I must conclude that Lackey just ain't for me (and
I'm not sneering at comfort reading, mind candy, or stuff other
people like--I'm the one who posted "the novels of John Norman" a
few days ago, after all).
--
Trent Goulding trent.g...@mho.com
Booklog: http://home.mho.net/trent.goulding/books/blcurrent.html
Ruchira Datta
Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:12:08 -0700, Steve Parker <spar...@attbi.com>
>wrote:
>
>>And Merc? If you have to give the characters an "unconditional
>>love" safety net so that they have no real emotional risks, at least
>>deal with the consequences of it in detail...
>
>Purely trivial note: Mercedes Lackey is called "Misty" by her friends
>and family. Not "Merc," which had me wondering where mercenary
>soldiers came into the picture.
The Merc is a Great American Institution! The Chicago Mercantile
Exchange, to be exact.
Ruchira Datta
da...@math.berkeley.edu
rr...@lmi.net
wrote:
Some spoilers in this post. Read at your own risk.
> DIANA TREGARDE
> 1 BURNING WATER (1989)
> 2 CHILDREN OF THE NIGHT (1990)
> 3 JINX HIGH (1991)
>She's a psychic investigator. Lackey apparently quit writing them
>because of psycho-fan/stalkers. I've hear pretty good things about
>these, but haven't read 'em.
>
They're pretty good. Although, I'm not quite sure about the point of
giving the main character a vampire lover who then never shows up in
any of the other books. He's always "busy" doing something else. But
other than that minor quibble, they are good reads.
>What I really, REALLY want from Mercedes Lackey:
>
>2) Enough with the lovey-dovey crap with the horsies. Yes. When
>heralds and horsies meet, they fall in love. Enough with the
>page-after-page "Their eyes met across the room. Longingly he stroked
>her mane and he knew he would get unconditional love from now on"
>crap. And Merc? If you have to give the characters an "unconditional
>love" safety net so that they have no real emotional risks, at least
>deal with the consequences of it in detail...Imagine a husband who got
>picked by a Companion... imagine how much having someone that you're
>more emotionally intimate with than your spouse could screw up a
>marriage. Or a kid who wants to go into the family business who
>doesn't want to be a Herald. Or a coward who gets chosen against his
>will. A draft is never a happy as you make it. (PS: Soul mates are
>another way to give "unconditional love" to your heroes so they don't
>have to take risks. Risks are GOOD.)
>
Well.. in her defense. As I understand it, the horses are
reincarnated spirits of previous Heralds sent by the guardian god of
the land. Which is why they don't pick people who don't want to be
Heralds. And probably why you don't have to worry about spouses...
the two were intended by the Gods to be together, and any mundane
relationship is always going to take second place to that.
>5) Explore the consequences of having a society where a group of
>magic-nanny horsies absolve people from any sort of responsibility:
>how much interest in the government would there be in Valdemar, given
>that magic horsies guarantees that the rulers will be "good". So why
>should anyone care what the powers that be are doing?
>
The magic horsies don't _guarentee_ that the ruler will be good.
There is the one case where the Herald was rejected by the horsie
because of his behaviour being evil. However, I grant you that there
is a definite impression that the Heralds are infallible. I have
wondered what the inhabitants would think if they knew about that
rejection.
Rebecca
William George Ferguson
>And everyone is either disgustingly
>icky-sweet loveable or an EEEEeeeeEeee-vil, cruel monster. But
>somehow I enjoy Lackey's books, despite myself.
The Mage Storms books featured bad guys that weren't bwa-ha-ha, even
the evil ones. In fact, Tremaine is probably the first bad guy Lackey
ever wrote that was more than one dimensional.
>Except for the covers. My god, the covers are horrific. They feature
>sensitive, big-eyed, wimpy, sissy horses and the sensitive, big-eyed,
>wimpy, sissy people who ride them (done in shocking pinks and
>lavenders) and they're all
>A) embarrassing to walk around with and
>B) make me vaguely nauseous
Since the Herald books were originally targeted at pre-teen to teen
girls...
>And yet...her world is neat, the "everything is awwww-right now" theme
>IS kinda addictive wish fulfillment and she's a damned compelling
>storyteller. .
And occasionally has a sense of humor about her own icons. Don't tell
me you didn't love Kerowyn's diatribes about the Herald's 'here I am,
shoot me' uniforms.
>Aargh.
>
>Oh, and she's co-written a billion novels. I don't care. I'm ignoring
>all the co-written stuff.
Some of the non-Velgarth stuff is very good, most of it, well, isn't.
The third book is pretty dark in the second half, a lot darker than
most fantasies aimed at that target audience. What Talia goes through
in Hardorn pretty much matches what Paksenarrion went through in the
Temple of Liart, except that Talia didn't have a large audience
witnessing it.
> LAST HERALD-MAGE
> 1 MAGIC'S PAWN (1989)
> 2 MAGIC'S PROMISE (1989)
> 3 MAGIC'S PRICE (1990)
My biggest problem is that, if you've read the Arrows books (which
were Lackey's first published novels). You know it's going to be
depressing. In the first chapter of the first Talia book, Talia is
reading Vanyel's death scene.
>And why are all of Lackey's gay characters, sensitive, snivelly
>whiners (OR Danny-Kaye-esqe happy-go-lucky?) and all thin, dainty
>wisps? I applaud her for using gay characters. I just wish she'd give
>us some variety. If you're going to show us positive gay characters,
>please, ML, quit with the stereotypes: big hairy guys who have no
>innate gift for music or arts can ALSO be gay.
Are you limiting that to gay males? Keren wasn't particularly
artistic, and wasn't really happy-go-lucky, and she very defintely
wasn't wimpy. Her twin brother Teren, who was straight, matched up to
all those better than she did.
> VOWS AND HONOR
> THE OATHBOUND (1988)
> OATHBREAKERS (1989)
>These are actually a lot of fun: No magic horsies anywhere in the
>foreground: two women, a fighter and a sorceress have adventures. I
>also think that one or both of them are fix-ups.
>
>Highly recommended.
There is one magic horsie, when Tarma and Kethry end up on the
Valdemar border in Oathbreakers. Of course, they aren't terribly
impressed, since Tarma's goddess, the Star-Eyed, shows up too.
Oathbound is built around some of the Tarma and Kethry stories from
MZB's Sword and Sorceress anthologies. The first Tarma and Kethry
story, Swordsworn, appeared in S&SIII, wasn't used in Oathbound, and
didn't appear again in print until Lackey did the anthology,
Oathblood, a year or so ago, gathering all the T&K stories that hadn't
been used in Oathbound/Oathbreakers.
While there was some fixer-upper stuff from the short stories, the
real 'fixer-upper' aspect of the two T&K novels is that they are based
on Lackey's filk songs from before she made her first sell as a
writer. In fact the bard Leslac (the one doing all the annoying songs
about T&K in Oathbound) uses the pen name of the Mercedes
Lackey/Leslie Fish filkwriting teamup.
> KEROWYN'S TALE
> BY THE SWORD (1991)
>Fantastic, except for the end part, it's just a rollicking good
>adventure story of a woman with a magic sword (inherited from the
>characters in _The Oathbound_.) Loads of fun, perhaps Lackey's best
>(except for the "Magic horsies show up at the end to make everything
>all right part)
To be fair, Kerowyn shows up at the end, to make everything all right
for the magic horsies.
>Highly recommended.
> MAGE WINDS
> WINDS OF FATE (1991)
> WINDS OF CHANGE (1992)
> WINDS OF FURY (1993)
>Remember back in the _Arrows_ book? Remember the spoiled princess?
>She's all grown up and off to find out what happened to all the magic.
>She's got a magic horsie of her own and she's got the magic sword from
>_By The Sword_.
And gets to have serious issues with both, once she realizes how much
both are manipulating her.
>Meanwhile, a bunch of (ahem) American Indians (more-or-less) know how
>to do magic and have magic birdies instead of magic horsies. She meets
>them and learns magic and falls in love.
the Hawkbrothers are northern, forest-dwelling Indians, not plains
Indians. The Shin'a'in (Tarma's people) are plains Indians.
>Meanwhile, remember back in the _Gryphon_ novels, the naughty wizard?
>He's back and possessing some kid who's such a gawddamned sniveler
>that I desperately wanted the naughty wizard to win, just to shut the
>kid up.
Well, yeah (and he didn't get any better in the Mage Storms books).
The bad guy's half-human daughter was a much better character.
> MAGE STORMS
> 1 STORM WARNING (1994)
> 2 STORM RISING (1995)
> 3 STORM BREAKING (1996)
>There's an eco-disaster a'brewin' as a result of the mage-wars. Some
>of the explosion went through time and is causing havoc all over the
>countryside. Meanwhile the (no-longer entirely) evil empire that the
>original king broke from has rediscovered where all those serfs went.
>Not bad at all. Lots of stuff about the world/gods/magic
>horsies-owls-cats, etc.
And the best job of bad guy writing Lackey had done up to that point,
and maybe since. She did such a good job of writing the lead bad guy,
Tremaine, that he becomes not a bad guy. The Emperor and the guy that
replaces Tremaine as his heir are both unquesionably 'evil' but they
are shown to be reasonably good rulers, of the Machiavellian
pursuasion. They don't go around mistreating their subjects because
that leads to discontent and rebellions. I liked that the typical way
they expanded was to make countries want to become a part of the
empire becuase they just did a better job of it.
> OWLFLIGHT
> OWLFLIGHT (1997) WITH LARRY DIXON
> OWLSIGHT (1998) WITH LARRY DIXON
> OWLKNIGHT (1999) WITH LARRY DIXON
>SSDD (Same S...stuff, different day). Kid from a village that's wiped
>out gets a magic owl from the Indians (who have magic birdies, instead
>of magic horsies) and learns magic.
I had a big problem with the first book because I kept comparing the
lead character to Talia (their stories are very similar), and he
really wasn't coming off well in the comparison.
>Mediocre.
> DIANA TREGARDE
> 1 BURNING WATER (1989)
> 2 CHILDREN OF THE NIGHT (1990)
> 3 JINX HIGH (1991)
>She's a psychic investigator. Lackey apparently quit writing them
>because of psycho-fan/stalkers. I've hear pretty good things about
>these, but haven't read 'em.
They are very good, probably the best of Lackey's urban fantasies. Of
course Jinx High (the last published but second chronologically)
directly ripped off the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode, The Witch,
about five years before the Buffy episode was written.
>What I really, REALLY want from Mercedes Lackey:
>
>1) A viewpoint character from a happy & healthy family who has good
>relationships with his/her parents/siblings (not a second banana
>character friend-of-the-hero who's provided for contrast or sniveling
>purposes: "If only MY family were so loving and kind <sob>")..
You actually described one above. Elspeth had some run-ins with the
Council (and with the Companions), but got along very well with her
mother and her younger siblings (to whom she ceded the throne of
Valdemar). Her father was a piece of work, but he died (trying to
assassinate her mother) before she was born.
>2) Enough with the lovey-dovey crap with the horsies. Yes. When
>heralds and horsies meet, they fall in love. Enough with the
>page-after-page "Their eyes met across the room. Longingly he stroked
>her mane and he knew he would get unconditional love from now on"
>crap.
That was mostly in the the first trilogy (the Arrows trilogy), and
somewhat in the Vanyel books. The relationship between the Companions
and the Heralds has become more complex, and the Companions have got
to have more complex and different personalities, instead of just
being affirmation appendages to their Herald. Part of that was the
conscious decision by Lackey to not have Talia be able to talk
directly to Rolan. Since we mostly had Talia's point of view, that
meant that Lackey didn't have to do too much character establishing
for the Companions.
However, even in the Arrows books, we see that the relationship
between the Companions and the Valdemarians is not as pure and
innocent as the surface appearance. I was very much creeped out the
first time I read the scene when Gwena comes 'From the Grove' and
Chooses Elspeth, and Rolan blots the memory that Gwena isn't normally
born from both Talia and Elspeth's mind. I kept expecting Talia to
find out about that, but she never did. Elspeth eventually did, and
was every bit as angry as she should be about it.
>And Merc? If you have to give the characters an "unconditional
>love" safety net so that they have no real emotional risks, at least
>deal with the consequences of it in detail...Imagine a husband who got
>picked by a Companion... imagine how much having someone that you're
>more emotionally intimate with than your spouse could screw up a
>marriage. Or a kid who wants to go into the family business who
>doesn't want to be a Herald. Or a coward who gets chosen against his
>will. A draft is never a happy as you make it. (PS: Soul mates are
>another way to give "unconditional love" to your heroes so they don't
>have to take risks. Risks are GOOD.)
The life-bonds were much worse than the Herald-Companion bonds about
this. Lackey made a conscious effort to stay away from life-bonds
after the Vanyel books Elspeth and Darkwind aren't life-bonded,
neither are Skif and Narya. Vanyel gets to give Skif a big speech on
the subject (saying a lot of the things you just did)
>3) Gay people are diverse. IE: There can be gay people who aren't
>tall, thin, delicate, sensitive, light-haired, artistic, and (usually)
>snivelly. I want the next gay hero you write to be a short, hairy,
>overweight, surly, tone-deaf, uncultured, self-confident, dark-haired
>bar-room brawler.
To be fair, she doesn't limit those characteristics, or that behavior,
to her homosexual male heroes. The same can be said for most of her
heterosexual male heroes.
>4) While we're at it, how 'bout a villain who's wrong, not Eeee-vil?
>It's possible to honestly believe that you have a better
>method/system/etc without being the type that applies red-hot-pincers
>to nipples.
Tremaine in the Mage Storms books. He even sends in assassins, who
end up killing at least one sympathetic character, but we get to see
his viewpoint, and why he is doing it, literally from the beginning.
>5) Explore the consequences of having a society where a group of
>magic-nanny horsies absolve people from any sort of responsibility:
>how much interest in the government would there be in Valdemar, given
>that magic horsies guarantees that the rulers will be "good". So why
>should anyone care what the powers that be are doing?
Why do the Brits care about what the Heir and the Spare are doing?
The magic horsies only ensure that the monarch will be 'good', and
that there will be an honest and more or less incorruptible group of
marshall/circuit judges to adminster the law in the outlying areas.
The day to day process of government is not done by the Heralds, and
most of the governance is by the Council. There's something like 18
members of the Council, only four of which are Heralds. It is true
that Monarch and the Monarch's Own constitute a majority vote when
they vote together, but it's made clear that the Monarch's Own very
rarely invokes his/her voting right, as a matter of practical
politics.
You read the Arrows books. The highest ranking non-Herald, and at
least two of his supporters on the Council, were traitors.
--
I have a theory
It could be bunnies
Susan Stepney
news:4iinau4so7873o181...@4ax.com:
> Mediocre repetitive writing, repeated ad nauseum themes, icky luuuuuv
> stuff (Findovar gazed longingly into Jomo's brown, limpid eyes and
> knew: she would never be alone again!) and frankly, Lackey
> has...issues. Which is fine, I suppose, but I wish she'd get herself
> to a therapist or something and get past them; I'm getting kind of
> sick of reading about them. Every character comes from a BAD home,
> finds a new home with friends and their magical horsies and either
> reconciles with the family or not. And everyone is either disgustingly
> icky-sweet loveable or an EEEEeeeeEeee-vil, cruel monster. But
> somehow I enjoy Lackey's books, despite myself.
You might enjoy Mark Heiman and John Burridge's hilarious song "A Funny
Thing Happened On The Way To Valdemar, or, Write Your Own Mercedes Lackey
Novel", then. It's dedicated to "all of us who've enjoyed the same book
again and again..."
See
http://public.logica.com/~stepneys/sf/filk/lackey.htm
:-)
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Susan Stepney tel +44 1223 254890 step...@logica.com
Logica UK Ltd, Betjeman House, 104 Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1LQ, UK
http://public.logica.com/~stepneys/ http://www.logica.com/
Elizabeth Blatt
YA--that's where I found the first one of hers, _Arrows of the Queen_.
From my own experience, they worked perfectly for me when I was about
Talia's age: twelve, horse-crazy, and already buying into the prevalent
teen POV that parents are awful things we'd be better off without. To
have a female protagonist, with whom I could identify, work her way out of
a nasty family situation and into a stable life where friends and love
were abundant was very compelling.
The Vanyel books were the first book I ever encountered with a homosexual
protagonist (I also found these when they were first printed). I wasn't
reading SF at the time--I was almost exclusively reading fantasies, and
almost exclusively those which were available in Waldenbooks--so there may
have been books available at that time, nominally written towards a YA
audience, which I entirely missed. But at the time the Vayel books came
out, I had never encountered homosexuality beyond the context of the AIDS
scare. So it was very interesting to read a book where the main char was
exploring his sexuality--and, because it was male-male, it was very
non-threatening to me (this is one of the reasons cited for the popularity
of gay relationships in female-oriented anime/manga as well, IIRC).
I'm bringing up all this personal-reaction foo is for two reasons: while I
agree that Lackey doesn't wear well given repeated exposure, I think the
Vanyel books in particular are retrospectively interesting given what was
thematically available in print at the time they were written. The
wish-fulfillment aspects Lackey treats time and time again strike me as
ones which speak very deftly to aspects of growing up that a YA audience
may be dealing with (at least, at the time I read them--from having
browsed the YA section of B&N the last several times I was there, I would
say the selections are more diverse and mature than a decade and a half
ago).
Elizabeth
Doom & Gloom Dave
"Steve Parker" <spar...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:4iinau4so7873o181...@4ax.com...
> Mediocre repetitive writing, repeated ad nauseum themes, icky luuuuuv
> stuff (Findovar gazed longingly into Jomo's brown, limpid eyes and
> knew: she would never be alone again!) and frankly, Lackey
> has...issues. Which is fine, I suppose, but I wish she'd get herself
> to a therapist or something and get past them; I'm getting kind of
> sick of reading about them. Every character comes from a BAD home,
> finds a new home with friends and their magical horsies and either
> reconciles with the family or not. And everyone is either disgustingly
> icky-sweet loveable or an EEEEeeeeEeee-vil, cruel monster. But
> somehow I enjoy Lackey's books, despite myself.
>
I don't know if it is issues, or just authorial laziness. It is easy
and quick sympathy for the character to have them be as abused
as all heck. It might be interesting to have a pampered noble
herald and see him gripe his way through a book after being chosen
because being on outer patrol is not a lot of fun. Especially now that
the companions talk back and seem to have no problem considering
their heralds as buffoons if the herald is acting as such.
The best Valdemar will probably be the first one you encounter.
In my case it was Last Herald Mage.
I've also not touched her co-authored non-Valdemar books while
continuing to consume Valdemar. When I see a plethora of co-authored
books I take it as a Very Bad Sign. See the earlier novels of Piers Anthony
thread. I shudder just thinking of the McCaffery/Lackey co-authored books.
Andrew Plotkin
> Anyway , spoilers ahoy.
> HERALDS OF VALDEMAR
> 1 ARROWS OF THE QUEEN (1987)
> 2 ARROW'S FLIGHT (1987)
> 3 ARROW'S FALL (1988)
> Talia comes from an icky-nasty village. She can get married at 14(?)
> or join the church. She doesn't want either. She meets up with a magic
> horsie who takes her away and to Professor Xavier's School
> for...er...Herald School. Apparently, years ago, a guy broke away from
> a cruel king with a whole bunch of people. He was worried that he too,
> would become cruel, so he prayed and the Gods sent him a couple of
> magic horsies. Only those who are good and true and good can hang out
> with their "lifebonded" magic horsie. To be ruler, you must have a
> magic-horsie companion. If you don't get picked, you don't rule. Lots
> of other magic-horsies showed up and their human companions generally
> function as judges and police. Except one: The King/Queen's Own. This
> is the Herald who's job it is to be the King/Queen's best friend
> (including keeping 'em honest). Talia is the new Queen's Own. The
> Queen's kid is a spoiled brat and Talia, from her background knows how
> to deal with spoiled kids. And she does. She's tormented by the rich
> kids but she gets better. There's a whole bunch of "Does he love
> me"/"Do I love him or *him*" stuff that gets fairly tedious fairly
> quickly. Oh, and she wins a war with the evil country.
The first book, when I read it, struck me as a damn nifty idea: you
have a fantasy quest story where the ultimate goal, the absolutely
vital fate-of-the-kingdom goal, is to raise a kid more or less
decently. No rings, volcanos, magic swords, demon lords, or plot
coupons. I don't think I've *ever* seen another writer try this.
The other two books were good too -- Talia learns to use her magical
abilities (good training scenes, there) and Talia gets in trouble way
over her head.
After that I read the Vanyel books, which I liked even though the plot
seemed to be vaguely wandering through the trilogy, occasionally
asking directions.
After that, I read a bunch of Mercedes Lackey books until I realized I
wasn't having any fun.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
erilar
Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> > LAST HERALD-MAGE
> > 1 MAGIC'S PAWN (1989)
> > 2 MAGIC'S PROMISE (1989)
> > 3 MAGIC'S PRICE (1990)
>
> My biggest problem is that, if you've read the Arrows books (which
> were Lackey's first published novels). You know it's going to be
> depressing. In the first chapter of the first Talia book, Talia is
> reading Vanyel's death scene.
If, as I did, you read the books as they were published, the passage of
time veils such bits. 8-)
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Germanic philologist, amateur medieval historian
erilar
> They are very good, probably the best of Lackey's urban fantasies. Of
> course Jinx High (the last published but second chronologically)
> directly ripped off the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode, The Witch,
> about five years before the Buffy episode was written.
That is one of the more confusing "ripped off" uses I have encountered
in some time. If it was five years before the Buffy episode, it was the
Buffy writers who doing the "ripping off"
Andrew Plotkin
> In article <u2tnaugldoum09087...@4ax.com>, William George
> Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> They are very good, probably the best of Lackey's urban fantasies. Of
>> course Jinx High (the last published but second chronologically)
>> directly ripped off the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode, The Witch,
>> about five years before the Buffy episode was written.
> That is one of the more confusing "ripped off" uses I have encountered
> in some time.
I infer irony.
dix...@pobox.com
>The first book, when I read it, struck me as a damn nifty idea: you
>have a fantasy quest story where the ultimate goal, the absolutely
>vital fate-of-the-kingdom goal, is to raise a kid more or less
>decently. No rings, volcanos, magic swords, demon lords, or plot
>coupons. I don't think I've *ever* seen another writer try this.
And then the later books completely ruined that, by having the kid decide not
to inherit the throne after all. That was the point at which I gave up on
Lackey.
--
Meredith Dixon <dix...@pobox.com>
Check out *Raven Days*: http://www.ravendays.org
For victims and survivors of bullying.
And for those who want to help.
Louann Miller
wrote:
>You might enjoy Mark Heiman and John Burridge's hilarious song "A Funny
>Thing Happened On The Way To Valdemar, or, Write Your Own Mercedes Lackey
>Novel", then. It's dedicated to "all of us who've enjoyed the same book
>again and again..."
>
>See
>http://public.logica.com/~stepneys/sf/filk/lackey.htm
Yep, I read that one. And it's a strangely accurate precis of her new
hardcover too, at least going by the back cover blurb.
--
"Hey, you know that metric ton of spam you're suddenly getting
every time you open your mailbox? That was us! We sold you out
to our advertisers, not just a few of them but every advertising
category we've got, even though you specifically turned those ads
down when you signed up! Banners, popups, and "sponsored links"
in the search engine aren't enough any more -- we want to process
you for every possible commercial advantage like a cow in a
slaughterhouse. Start buying things, you prole, that's all you're
good for."
-- Yahoo 'changes to privacy policy' notification, first draft
(rejected by PR dept.)
Sean O'Hara
> Not "Merc," which had me wondering where mercenary
> soldiers came into the picture.
>
no idea how to pronounce it. Is it as spelled (merk), or like
a contraction of the original word (mers)?
--
Sean O’Hara
"Most Britons cannot remember a time when [the Queen
Mum] wasn't there." -- CNN news ticker (Maybe that's
because those who can are dead?)
Bill Gibson no, not that one
Well, it's certainly a major subtext in the Bojoldverse books. (Aral
and Cordelia seem to have given alot of thought to raising Gregor to
be both a decent person and a good ruler.)
-Bill
Abigail Ann Young
>
> erilar <erila...@spamchibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <u2tnaugldoum09087...@4ax.com>, William George
> > Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> >> They are very good, probably the best of Lackey's urban fantasies. Of
> >> course Jinx High (the last published but second chronologically)
> >> directly ripped off the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode, The Witch,
> >> about five years before the Buffy episode was written.
>
> > That is one of the more confusing "ripped off" uses I have encountered
> > in some time.
>
> I infer irony.
Another possibility is the kind of deconstructionist lit crit that allows
one to write learnedly about Eliot's influence on Shakespeare...
Abigail
--
Abigail Ann Young (Dr), Associate Editor/Records of Early English Drama/
Victoria College/ 150 Charles Street W/ Toronto Ontario Canada M5S 1K9
Phone (416) 585-4504/ FAX (416) 813-4093/ abigai...@utoronto.ca
List-owner of REED-L <http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed-l.html>
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed.html> REED's home page
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/stage.html> our theatre resource page
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~young> my home page
Peter H. Granzeau
wrote:
>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> Not "Merc," which had me wondering where mercenary
>> soldiers came into the picture.
>>
>I've only ever come across the term "merc" in print, so I have
>no idea how to pronounce it. Is it as spelled (merk), or like
>a contraction of the original word (mers)?
Depends, one supposes, on whether the original word being contracted
has a hard 'c' (Mercury), or a soft 'c' (Mercedes, mercenary).
Peter H. Granzeau
<trent.g...@mho.com> wrote:
>> KEROWYN'S TALE
>> BY THE SWORD (1991)
>
>So a few months ago, I figured I'd finally get around to giving
>Lackey her one chance to impress me (you know, the standard "author
>I haven't read yet" contract), and I had it on good authority that
>this novel was the one most likely to fit my tastes.
>
>I didn't care for it. And that includes the beginning and middle
>sections, *before* the magic horsies showed up. If this is the best
>she has to offer, I must conclude that Lackey just ain't for me (and
>I'm not sneering at comfort reading, mind candy, or stuff other
>people like--I'm the one who posted "the novels of John Norman" a
>few days ago, after all).
Lackey is evidently written for YA girls. The stories are at about
that level, anyway.
David Johnston
>
> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> > Not "Merc," which had me wondering where mercenary
> > soldiers came into the picture.
> >
> I've only ever come across the term "merc" in print, so I have
> no idea how to pronounce it. Is it as spelled (merk), or like
> a contraction of the original word (mers)?
>
You say "merk". Sounds tougher.
J Greely
>Depends, one supposes, on whether the original word being contracted
>has a hard 'c' (Mercury), or a soft 'c' (Mercedes, mercenary).
I suspect that the folks at Soldier of Fortune magazine would take
offense if you described a world-weary professional adventurer as a
"mers". Anything that rhymes with purse can't be manly enough. :-)
-j
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Ah, but I've never lived within a hundred miles of Chicago.
Kevin Eaches
Doom & Gloom Dave wrote:
> I've also not touched her co-authored non-Valdemar books while
> continuing to consume Valdemar. When I see a plethora of co-authored
> books I take it as a Very Bad Sign. See the earlier novels of Piers Anthony
> thread. I shudder just thinking of the McCaffery/Lackey co-authored books.
>
Actually, The Ship Who Searched (a McCaffrey/Lackey duet) is quite good.
Perhaps not the deepest book I've ever read, but very enjoyable. It's
one of the books I turn to when I want something to read, and nothing
else around is appealing to me; I know I'll enjoy it. Give it a try -
from the library if nothing else.
Kevin Eaches
kea...@columbus.rr.com
Johnny1A
> "Steve Parker" <spar...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:4iinau4so7873o181...@4ax.com...
> > Mediocre repetitive writing, repeated ad nauseum themes, icky luuuuuv
> > stuff (Findovar gazed longingly into Jomo's brown, limpid eyes and
> > knew: she would never be alone again!) and frankly, Lackey
> > has...issues. Which is fine, I suppose, but I wish she'd get herself
> > to a therapist or something and get past them; I'm getting kind of
> > sick of reading about them. Every character comes from a BAD home,
> > finds a new home with friends and their magical horsies and either
> > reconciles with the family or not. And everyone is either disgustingly
> > icky-sweet loveable or an EEEEeeeeEeee-vil, cruel monster. But
> > somehow I enjoy Lackey's books, despite myself.
> >
>
> I don't know if it is issues, or just authorial laziness. It is easy
> and quick sympathy for the character to have them be as abused
> as all heck. It might be interesting to have a pampered noble
> herald and see him gripe his way through a book after being chosen
> because being on outer patrol is not a lot of fun. Especially now that
> the companions talk back and seem to have no problem considering
> their heralds as buffoons if the herald is acting as such.
>
It's issues. It turns up in her co-author work as well. IMHO, based
on an admittedly limited exposure, Mercedes Lackey produces a superior
work as a co-author than on her own, perhaps because a co-author can
help filter out the issues, or filter them down to a calmer level,
anyway, letting her better elements come through.
The best thing Lackey has been involved in that I've read in _Chrome
Circle, co-authored with Larry Dixon. Incidentally, in it, we have
that character who had a pretty decent childhood, name of Tannim. He
has mild difficulties relating to his parents, and vice versa, because
he possesses various magical abilities, but it's nothing nasty. His
buddy does come from an abusive background, but he's a supporting
player.
The issues are strained way down here, but they _do_ come through.
Lackey seems to have the peculiar notion that the modern world is far
_worse_ and scarier and harsher for children and women and physically
weaker males than any previous time, which betrays a limited knowledge
of the real world in earlier times.
OTOH, there are some sincerely funny moments, and the characters are
sympathetic. The reaction of the dragon-in-human-form to the Buddhist
tea ceremony is hilarious.
Shermanlee
D. Gascoyne
"Peter H. Granzeau" <pgra...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:RL2r8.4978$GG1.1...@news2.east.cox.net...
Yeah, except that there's quite a bit of rather nasty sexual torture. Most
of Lackey's bad guys express their badness by indulging in inventive
sadistic rape.
Debbie
D. Gascoyne
<dix...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:1s6pau896qr3pc5au...@4ax.com...
> On 4 Apr 2002 15:56:40 GMT, Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>
> >The first book, when I read it, struck me as a damn nifty idea: you
> >have a fantasy quest story where the ultimate goal, the absolutely
> >vital fate-of-the-kingdom goal, is to raise a kid more or less
> >decently. No rings, volcanos, magic swords, demon lords, or plot
> >coupons. I don't think I've *ever* seen another writer try this.
>
> And then the later books completely ruined that, by having the kid decide
not
> to inherit the throne after all. That was the point at which I gave up on
> Lackey.
>
character as she appears is quite different from the sensible and likeable
child who emerges after Talia's tutoring. Lackey turns her once again into
a tiresome rebellious teenager just for the convenience of the plot.
Debbie
mike stone
>
> IMHO, based
>on an admittedly limited exposure, Mercedes Lackey produces a superior
>work as a co-author than on her own, perhaps because a co-author can
>help filter out the issues, or filter them down to a calmer level,
>anyway, letting her better elements come through.
>
>The best thing Lackey has been involved in that I've read in _Chrome
>Circle, co-authored with Larry Dixon. Incidentally, in it, we have
>that character who had a pretty decent childhood, name of Tannim. He
>has mild difficulties relating to his parents, and vice versa, because
>he possesses various magical abilities, but it's nothing nasty. His
>buddy does come from an abusive background, but he's a supporting
>player.
>
>The issues are strained way down here, but they _do_ come through.
>Lackey seems to have the peculiar notion that the modern world is far
>_worse_ and scarier and harsher for children and women and physically
>weaker males than any previous time, which betrays a limited knowledge
>of the real world in earlier times.
>
>OTOH, there are some sincerely funny moments, and the characters are
>sympathetic. The reaction of the dragon-in-human-form to the Buddhist
>tea ceremony is hilarious.
Also, Wheels of Fire seemed at times to come uncannily close to anticipating
Waco - though of course she had to go spoil it by tacking on a happy ending
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
Last words of King Edward II.
"I always said that Roger Mortimer was a pain in the - - - AAARGHH!!!"
Kate Nepveu
> IMHO, based
> on an admittedly limited exposure, Mercedes Lackey produces a superior
> work as a co-author than on her own, perhaps because a co-author can
> help filter out the issues, or filter them down to a calmer level,
> anyway, letting her better elements come through.
Boy, and here I thought that the Valdemar co-authored stuff, at least,
was just *dreadful*...
Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- kate....@yale.edu
Paired Reading Page; Book Reviews; Outside of a Dog: A Book Log
"I awoke this morning with devout thanksgiving for my friends."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
Kate Nepveu
> Anyway , spoilers ahoy.
> HERALDS OF VALDEMAR
> 1 ARROWS OF THE QUEEN (1987)
> 2 ARROW'S FLIGHT (1987)
> 3 ARROW'S FALL (1988)
> [...] Talia is the new Queen's Own. The
> Queen's kid is a spoiled brat and Talia, from her background knows how
> to deal with spoiled kids. And she does. She's tormented by the rich
> kids but she gets better. There's a whole bunch of "Does he love
> me"/"Do I love him or *him*" stuff that gets fairly tedious fairly
> quickly. Oh, and she wins a war with the evil country.
The first one stands fairly well alone, and doesn't have as much
gratuitous character torture.
> VOWS AND HONOR
> THE OATHBOUND (1988)
> OATHBREAKERS (1989)
> These are actually a lot of fun: No magic horsies anywhere in the
> foreground: two women, a fighter and a sorceress have adventures. I
> also think that one or both of them are fix-ups.
> Highly recommended.
Also _Oathblood_, collection of short stories. I like these.
> KEROWYN'S TALE
> BY THE SWORD (1991)
> Fantastic, except for the end part, it's just a rollicking good
> adventure story of a woman with a magic sword (inherited from the
> characters in _The Oathbound_.) Loads of fun, perhaps Lackey's best
> (except for the "Magic horsies show up at the end to make everything
> all right part)
> Highly recommended.
And this one. Of all of them, these are the ones that have held up the
best for me.
> MAGE STORMS
> 1 STORM WARNING (1994)
> 2 STORM RISING (1995)
> 3 STORM BREAKING (1996)
> There's an eco-disaster a'brewin' as a result of the mage-wars. Some
> of the explosion went through time and is causing havoc all over the
> countryside. Meanwhile the (no-longer entirely) evil empire that the
> original king broke from has rediscovered where all those serfs went.
> Not bad at all. Lots of stuff about the world/gods/magic
> horsies-owls-cats, etc.
They're starting to indicate brain rot about plot, but I still like these
for Karal & Tremane.
> OWLFLIGHT
> OWLFLIGHT (1997) WITH LARRY DIXON
> OWLSIGHT (1998) WITH LARRY DIXON
> OWLKNIGHT (1999) WITH LARRY DIXON
> SSDD (Same S...stuff, different day). Kid from a village that's wiped
> out gets a magic owl from the Indians (who have magic birdies, instead
> of magic horsies) and learns magic.
> Mediocre.
Unreadable, I found them. I stopped reading Valdemar right there.
Abigail Ann Young
Yes, that's why I've never actually finished a Mercedes Lackey book. I
picked up one of the magic horsie ones and hit the nasty-sexual-torture
part around p 25, put the book down and have never been able to go back.
It's not that I don't realise that such things happen -- it's precisely
_because_ such things happen that I object to their (apparently) gratuitous
use as plot-devices.
Thomas Lindgren
"D. Gascoyne" <gasc...@shaw.ca> writes:
> Yes, what really annoyed me about the Elspeth trilogy is that the Elspeth
> character as she appears is quite different from the sensible and likeable
> child who emerges after Talia's tutoring. Lackey turns her once again into
> a tiresome rebellious teenager just for the convenience of the plot.
> Debbie
Well, I suppose it's a fantasy for teenagers, rather than parents :-)
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
I'd rather write programs that write programs than write programs-[R. Sites]
Jennifer R. J.
Actually, there is only one and it is quite good- this coming from an
ex-McCaffrey fan and an almost ex-Lackey fan. The Ship who Searched is one of
my comfort reads- and one of the only McCaffrey books in my house anymore.
Jennifer
Doom & Gloom Dave wrote:
Andrew Plotkin
> I have read quite a few of the books, but I feel the same way
> you do. It wasn't so bad with *one* book or series, but she kept
> having it happen over and over again in every series for a while!
> Okay, we get it, the evil bastards use rape as a form of torture/
> dominance, can we please move on now? I was just thinking about this
> the other day, and came to the same conclusion you did. Yes, these
> things happen in real life and it's awful, but it almost seems to
> trivialize it to have her use it as a plot device. I much preferred
> McKinley's way of dealing with rape in Deerskin to Lackey's.
For one thing, she didn't deal with it the same way again in "Deerskin
2", "Deerskin 3", "The Last Owl-Gryphon Deerskin Bard-Mage..."
D. Gascoyne
> Jennifer R. J. <jenj...@superior.net> wrote:
>
> > I have read quite a few of the books, but I feel the same way
> > you do. It wasn't so bad with *one* book or series, but she kept
> > having it happen over and over again in every series for a while!
> > Okay, we get it, the evil bastards use rape as a form of torture/
> > dominance, can we please move on now? I was just thinking about this
> > the other day, and came to the same conclusion you did. Yes, these
> > things happen in real life and it's awful, but it almost seems to
> > trivialize it to have her use it as a plot device. I much preferred
> > McKinley's way of dealing with rape in Deerskin to Lackey's.
>
> For one thing, she didn't deal with it the same way again in "Deerskin
> 2", "Deerskin 3", "The Last Owl-Gryphon Deerskin Bard-Mage..."
>
the rapes diminishes as they are repeated. Talia's is horrific, but works,
and there's a tremendous emotional wallop in reading about the
after-effects. The next one, and the next one, and the next one get
successively less powerfully affecting and we as readers become almost blase
about it (oh, there goes Lackey doing one of her sexual torture scenes
again...). I'm sure that was not the effect Lackey had in mind...
Debbie
skye
: Oh, and she's co-written a billion novels. I don't care. I'm ignoring
: all the co-written stuff.
I hope I don't come off sounding mean, but you've also basically
ignored anything that isn't Valdemar, except for the Diana Tregarde
stuff (I do count the Vows and Honor stuff as Valdemar, since
it appears to be set in that world).
You may as well have titled this thread "The Valdemar novels
of Mercedes Lackey"
The reason I care about sounding mean is because I think you
*have* done a good job, and heck, I wouldn't normally point
something like this out (because my automatic answer is: if
I thought I could do better, I would have done so), but it
really irks me.
Why does it irk me? Because of comments I read in the replies to
this thread about "is this the best she can do?" and of posters
who started off by reading one of the Valdemar books and decided
that Lackey was not to their taste based on that.
I do agree with whoever posted that filk link -- yes, Lackey's
a formulaic writer; if you've read one, you've read them all;
if you like them, more power to you. I guess the [long and rambling]
point I am trying to make is that I read Lackey, I enjoy it, but
I avoid the Valdemar books (after having read one or two), and
instead focus mainly on her individual novels such as Firebird
(which was quite a good fairytale novelisation, I thought) and
other series such as the Bardic Voices (which I thought started
quite well, but I never liked the other Bard related series).
PS: Commenting on "Merc" as an abbreviation of Mercedes, I
pronounce it like "Merk" as do other people in my current
location in the US, but recently overseas was interested
to note that other people pronounce it as "Mers" (to rhyme
with purse).
-- skye
rr...@lmi.net
wrote:
>Thank the gods, yes. And thinking about it, I realized that the impact of
>the rapes diminishes as they are repeated. Talia's is horrific, but works,
>and there's a tremendous emotional wallop in reading about the
>after-effects. The next one, and the next one, and the next one get
>successively less powerfully affecting and we as readers become almost blase
>about it (oh, there goes Lackey doing one of her sexual torture scenes
>again...). I'm sure that was not the effect Lackey had in mind...
> Debbie
>
Speaking of well-written rape scenes, I have to admire the one that
Cherryh did in Cyteen. (If it is actually rape... the guy did decide
to basically prositute himself, but I don't think that he knew what he
was getting himself into, and drugs were involved.) It was written in
the vaguest, creepiest terms, which I thought made it much more
effective, because you got to fill in the bits with whatever
experience you have had. So, it doesn't give graphic details that
might disturb more naive readers, and those who are sexually
experienced can expand the bits with as many graphic details as they
want to. There's no doubt about the emotional impact it has. At
least I felt really creeped out after reading it.
Rebecca
Konrad Gaertner
>
[snip]
> I avoid the Valdemar books (after having read one or two), and
> instead focus mainly on her individual novels such as Firebird
> (which was quite a good fairytale novelisation, I thought) and
> other series such as the Bardic Voices (which I thought started
> quite well, but I never liked the other Bard related series).
I don't think I've tried any of her non-Valdemar stuff; could you
list them and comment on which are best to start with?
--KG
Doom & Gloom Dave
"Steve Parker" <spar...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:4iinau4so7873o181...@4ax.com...
> Mediocre repetitive writing, repeated ad nauseum themes, icky luuuuuv
> stuff (Findovar gazed longingly into Jomo's brown, limpid eyes and
> knew: she would never be alone again!) and frankly, Lackey
> has...issues. Which is fine, I suppose, but I wish she'd get herself
> to a therapist or something and get past them; I'm getting kind of
> sick of reading about them. Every character comes from a BAD home,
> finds a new home with friends and their magical horsies and either
> reconciles with the family or not. And everyone is either disgustingly
> icky-sweet loveable or an EEEEeeeeEeee-vil, cruel monster. But
> somehow I enjoy Lackey's books, despite myself.
>
>
> sensitive, big-eyed, wimpy, sissy horses and the sensitive, big-eyed,
> wimpy, sissy people who ride them (done in shocking pinks and
> lavenders) and they're all
> A) embarrassing to walk around with and
> B) make me vaguely nauseous
>
> And yet...her world is neat, the "everything is awwww-right now" theme
> IS kinda addictive wish fulfillment and she's a damned compelling
> storyteller. .
>
<snip>
I don't think anyone's taken "Take a Thief" so...
<SPOILERS>
.
.
.
.
Pre-Herald Skif lives as a drudge in a tavern with a mean relative,
with a bit of protection provided by the law making him go to school
where another relative teaches him. After school he does a bit of
amateur cat burglary primarily stealing food and a place to sleep
so he doesn't have to go home. Eventually he is recruited by The
Artful Dodger and joins Fagin's gang. I'm not joking here, rather than
insult our intelligence with a Fagin knock-off, it is Fagin right down to
plucking the initials out of handkerchiefs. I was all ready for the
"Consider Yourself At Home" and "You've Got To Pick a Pocket
or Two" numbers. Eventually bad things happen and Fagin is sent
back to Dicken's London to help in the raising of Oliver Twist via
a big fire.
Skif gets vengeful and attempts to find out who set the fire, along
the way he is Chosen and teams up with a grizzled Karsite Herald
veteran. They uncover a larger plot involving child theft and traitors
and do a not too bad job of putting and end to it despite not being
entirely competent.
Better than I've made it sound and probably better than the
most recent Valdemar books. Drop the horrible horrible
Fagin character and it would have been even better.
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Doom & Gloom Dave
"Jennifer R. J." <jenj...@superior.net> wrote in message
news:3CAE2B88...@superior.net...
>
> Actually, there is only one and it is quite good- this coming from an
> ex-McCaffrey fan and an almost ex-Lackey fan. The Ship who Searched is
one of
> my comfort reads- and one of the only McCaffrey books in my house anymore.
> Jennifer
>
my boss for an entire day because she bought Skies of Pern in
hardcover the day of release. The next day she was an
ex-McCaffery fan. With 100 or so books unread on my shelves
and growing though I don't think Ship Who Searched will be put
in the queue any time soon.
skye
: skye wrote:
:>
: [snip]
List the ones I like, or all of the non-Valdemar stuff? Nix on the
latter, and I've already done the former. My general comment is
that you start with anything that isn't part of a series. My
feeling is that if an author deliberately puts out books as part
of a series they're always keeping something back, and the story
you get is never the full story.
My belief is that there are two parts to a novel: what the book
is about and how the book is written. Sometimes if I'm
interested in what the book is about, I can give a little slack on
the way the message is conveyed. Your mileage may vary. For
instance, I place Lackey above Alan Dean Foster. They both tell
a story that I want to listen to, but Foster does it in a way
that makes me want to throw the book against the wall.
I've picked up a few of Lackey's individual novels based on fairytales,
which I like (that is, I like fairytales and I liked her novels).
I've also recommended the Bardic Voices series as a possibly better
place to start than Valdemar, provided bards don't give you hives. Very
basic notes below: I am not doing "The Other Novels of Mercedes
Lackey," I am telling you which novels I *bought*.
<MILD SPOILERS>
Firebird: A novelisation of a russian fairytale whose name I have
forgotten, but follows the basic theme of the 3 sons, of which the
youngest is considered an idiot. Their property (usually
orchards) are getting raided but no one can seem to catch the
thief because everyone falls asleep at the time of the theft. So
on the first night, the first son keeps watch, on the second
son, etc. After a long association with fairytales and reading
novelisations of fairytales one must conclude it is the journey
that matters -- after all, why would I keep reading what is
essentially the same story, over and over, when I know basically
what's going to happen? This was a good tale and I was happy to
read the elongated version that fills in all the holes.
Fire Rose: This novel came out before Firebird, but I don't
think I like it as much. A novelisation of Beauty and the Beast
which is set in San Francisco, and I read it when it came out (1995?)
so maybe I don't remember very well, but seems to be before the
fire. Well, maybe not. Anyhow, you get the drift: historical
romance with dark, tortured hero and young destitute woman.
Enjoyable read, mostly.
Serpent's Shadow: This just came out last year or the year before
that, and is Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. You can do a
google search as there was a short and bitter discussion about
one particular incident in the book. What I came away with after
said discussion was the idea that because of this one anachronism,
the book was utterly useless. Book seems to be set in the same
time as Fire Rose, but in England; I say that because the magic
structure seems the same, but I didn't pay any attention to
any datestamps or if there were any. Snow White in this story
is a young lady from India, so in addition there's a whole bunch
of Indian folklore thrown in for good measure. On the whole it
was a pretty good read -- obviously I don't wade in with a lot
of advance knowledge about this stuff that might get in the way
of my willing suspension of belief.
Eagle and the Nightingales: Novelisation, and quite a good one,
of the Nightingale, by Hans Christian Anderson. Also the third
book in the Bardic Voices series.
BARDIC VOICES SERIES: Well... they're about bards, instead
of magic horsies. I haven't read them recently, but from
memory they were not bad. If you could read through Anne
McCaffrey, you could probably read through these too. Good
bubblegum for the eyes. Others will probably chime in now
about how they ripped their eyes out after reading but one
sentence, but oh well. Books in this series are:
Lark and the Wren
Robin and the Kestrel
Eagle and the Nightingales
Four and Twenty Blackbirds
Katherine Emblom
>On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:12:08 -0700, Steve Parker <spar...@attbi.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>> DIANA TREGARDE
>> 1 BURNING WATER (1989)
>> 2 CHILDREN OF THE NIGHT (1990)
>> 3 JINX HIGH (1991)
>>She's a psychic investigator. Lackey apparently quit writing them
>>because of psycho-fan/stalkers. I've hear pretty good things about
>>these, but haven't read 'em.
>>
>They're pretty good. Although, I'm not quite sure about the point of
>giving the main character a vampire lover who then never shows up in
>any of the other books. He's always "busy" doing something else. But
>other than that minor quibble, they are good reads.
>
I was saddened to find out that Lackey dropped this series as a result of
some psycho-stalker fan. I thought they were the most interesting of the
works, mostly because they didn't have that tried and true YA theme of
misunderstood-child-discovers-s/he-has-a-special-talent. _Jinx High_,
while the least strong, IMO, was interesting in that it alludes to
Lackey's own approach to writing.
--Kate
--
James Nicoll
This would be the alleged stalking incident which involved
people who thought the guardians were real, which allededly resulted in
the poorly documented hordes of death ninjas at Dragoncon? The one with
the alleged FBI investigation which oddly left no paper trail? That
incident? The one that made Lackey write 'the last straw'?
You want to look at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7tnevk%24ih6%241%40saltmine.radix.net
Unless I munged the url (which frankly given the length is
almost certain) in which case you won't.
--
"I think you mean 'Could libertarian slave-owning Confederates, led by
SHWIers, have pulled off a transatlantic invasion of Britain, in revenge
for the War of 1812, if they had nukes acquired from the Sea of Time?'"
Alison Brooks (1959-2002)
Louann Miller
>List the ones I like, or all of the non-Valdemar stuff? Nix on the
>latter, and I've already done the former. My general comment is
>that you start with anything that isn't part of a series. My
>feeling is that if an author deliberately puts out books as part
>of a series they're always keeping something back, and the story
>you get is never the full story.
(snip)
>Fire Rose: This novel came out before Firebird, but I don't
>think I like it as much. A novelisation of Beauty and the Beast
>which is set in San Francisco, and I read it when it came out (1995?)
>so maybe I don't remember very well, but seems to be before the
>fire. Well, maybe not. Anyhow, you get the drift: historical
>romance with dark, tortured hero and young destitute woman.
>Enjoyable read, mostly.
I agree with you about putting this one and "Firebird" at the top of
her books for readability, though I'd add "Sacred Ground" as well. If
I were picking a best Lackey novel ever, "Sacred Ground" is definitely
it; all the strengths of the Guardian series without any of its
weaknesses.
>Serpent's Shadow: This just came out last year or the year before
>that, and is Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. You can do a
>google search as there was a short and bitter discussion about
>one particular incident in the book. What I came away with after
>said discussion was the idea that because of this one anachronism,
>the book was utterly useless.
Was that the "we can both quote a children's book written 45 years
from now" bit? Or the tribute character imported from a classic
mystery series who spends so much time jumping up and down going
"Look! I'm a tribute character! Get it? Get it?" that he gets in the
way of the plot?
>Book seems to be set in the same
>time as Fire Rose, but in England; I say that because the magic
>structure seems the same, but I didn't pay any attention to
>any datestamps or if there were any.
And there's now a third one with the same magic system, just out in
hardcover: "Gates of Sleep." I haven't read it, but the back cover
blurb looks awfully familiar.
Louann Miller
--
Over the last few weeks, Yahoo! has completely turned its
public image around from "respected net resource" to "hateful
money-grubbing spam merchants." Funny goal for a company to have.
William December Starr
rr...@lmi.net said:
> Speaking of well-written rape scenes, I have to admire the one that
> Cherryh did in Cyteen. (If it is actually rape... the guy did
> decide to basically prositute himself, but I don't think that he
> knew what he was getting himself into, and drugs were involved.) It
> was written in the vaguest, creepiest terms, which I thought made it
> much more effective, because you got to fill in the bits with
> whatever experience you have had. So, it doesn't give graphic
> details that might disturb more naive readers, and those who are
> sexually experienced can expand the bits with as many graphic
> details as they want to. There's no doubt about the emotional
> impact it has. At least I felt really creeped out after reading it.
Speaking of Cherryh though, there's also _Downbelow Station_, in which
she was _so_ bloody vague about what had happened to Josh Talley while
he was Signy Mallory's prisoner that the whole thing had all the
emotional impact of a slow-moving hydrogen atom hitting a steel wall.
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
William December Starr
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>> I was saddened to find out that Lackey dropped this series as a
>> result of some psycho-stalker fan. [Katherine Emblom]
[ *snip* ]
> This would be the alleged stalking incident which involved people
> who thought the guardians were real, which allededly resulted in the
> poorly documented hordes of death ninjas at Dragoncon? The one with
> the alleged FBI investigation which oddly left no paper trail? That
> incident? The one that made Lackey write 'the last straw'?
>
> You want to look at
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7tnevk%24ih6%241%40saltmine.radix.net
>
> Unless I munged the url (which frankly given the length is almost
> certain) in which case you won't.
The URL works fine, and thanks. I note that Laura Burchard's article
was from October of 1999... does anybody have any more recent input on
either (a) the original events or (b) Ms. Lackey's (non)documentation
of same?
William December Starr
spar...@attbi.com said:
> LAST HERALD-MAGE
> 1 MAGIC'S PAWN (1989)
> 2 MAGIC'S PROMISE (1989)
> 3 MAGIC'S PRICE (1990)
> Vanyel is gay. His dad and his dad's best friend, the gym coach
> are MACHO. Vanyel is also a sniveling wimp (this is not a comment
> on his sexual orientation. I'd say the same thing if he were
> straight). Vanyel gets the snot beaten out of him physically and
> emotionally by Dad and the Gym Coach (fencing instructor, but
> she's playing the 'evil gym coach' card). A magic horsie shows
> up to rescue Vanyel who spends far too much time sniveling about
> how dreadful things are and how lonely he is. He meets a nice
> young guy. They fall in wuv. Icky-in-wuv. The guy promptly
> dies. Vanyel mopes for 15(or so) years, incidentally making up
> with dad and the gym coach (which I didn't buy for a SECOND.
> Dad's had personality transplant (he's no longer evil, he's just
> befuddled) and the Gym Coach was just misunderstood. Uh-huh..
Maybe in the intervening time his Dad and the Gym Coach finally got
over their denial of their own true natures and became lovers?
Ross TenEyck
This is the only Lackey trilogy I've read -- I knew several people
who really liked her books, and wanted to see if there was anything
to them; a friend suggested this trilogy as being a good place to
start. I've since gathered that this may not be true; apparently
it's better to know some of the later events first, or something.
But what *I* remember thinking, towards the third book, was:
"Is *anybody* in this world straight?" I mean, the hero is gay;
that's fine. He falls in love with a gay guy; well, you'd expect
that. But it began to seem that pretty much everyone they ran
into was also gay, and either Cruelly Discriminated Against because
of it, or living in a Healthy Gay-Friendly Environment. I felt
bludgeoned in somewhat the same way that Bad Ursula bludgeons
(although even Bad Ursula does it with more skill.)
Also the ending was kind of a downer. That's where I gather
that having read the previous (chronologically later) Valdemar
books first would have helped; I would have been expecting it.
(Or if I'd known that the trilogy was collectively referred
to as "The _Last_ Herald-Mage" -- either the edition I read
didn't have that on it, or I didn't notice it.)
My sister is heavily into Lackey; but I can't say that her
descriptions have prompted me to try further. I particularly
remember her telling me about some book (series?) involving
an evil mage who'd been turned into a giant bird for reasons
that escape me, and who was whiling away his time torturing and
raping young girls. What can one say to that? Other than:
Thanks, I'll pass.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
Shannon
wrote:
>But what *I* remember thinking, towards the third book, was:
>"Is *anybody* in this world straight?" I mean, the hero is gay;
>that's fine. He falls in love with a gay guy; well, you'd expect
>that. But it began to seem that pretty much everyone they ran
>into was also gay, and either Cruelly Discriminated Against because
>of it, or living in a Healthy Gay-Friendly Environment. I felt
The only gay characters I can recall offhand were Vanyel, the two men
he falls in love with, and the two men that become his mentors. Four
major gay characters in three books doesn't seem excessive in a series
featuring a gay main character.
>Also the ending was kind of a downer. That's where I gather
>that having read the previous (chronologically later) Valdemar
>books first would have helped; I would have been expecting it.
>(Or if I'd known that the trilogy was collectively referred
>to as "The _Last_ Herald-Mage" -- either the edition I read
>didn't have that on it, or I didn't notice it.)
Well...it's better if you actually want to know the ending, I suppose.
This was the first series by her that I read, and IMO by far the best.
I wouldn't have wanted to know what was going to happen beforehand,
although I recall being utterly convinced that Vanyel wasn't going to
survive long before I reached the end of the book.
I'm probably not the most objective person on this series, though. As
a 13 year old girl I read it and fell utterly in love with Vanyel, and
I suppose that has skewed my objectivity a bit. :-)
>My sister is heavily into Lackey; but I can't say that her
>descriptions have prompted me to try further. I particularly
>remember her telling me about some book (series?) involving
>an evil mage who'd been turned into a giant bird for reasons
>that escape me, and who was whiling away his time torturing and
>raping young girls. What can one say to that? Other than:
>Thanks, I'll pass.
Heh. None of that is entirely accurate, but I doubt you'd be more
tempted to read it were I to explain what is really going on in that
particular series.
Shannon
Shannon
wrote:
>But what *I* remember thinking, towards the third book, was:
>"Is *anybody* in this world straight?" I mean, the hero is gay;
>that's fine. He falls in love with a gay guy; well, you'd expect
>that. But it began to seem that pretty much everyone they ran
>into was also gay, and either Cruelly Discriminated Against because
>of it, or living in a Healthy Gay-Friendly Environment. I felt
The only gay characters I can recall offhand were Vanyel, the two men
he falls in love with, and the two men that become his mentors. Four
major gay characters in three books doesn't seem excessive in a series
featuring a gay main character.
>Also the ending was kind of a downer. That's where I gather
>that having read the previous (chronologically later) Valdemar
>books first would have helped; I would have been expecting it.
>(Or if I'd known that the trilogy was collectively referred
>to as "The _Last_ Herald-Mage" -- either the edition I read
>didn't have that on it, or I didn't notice it.)
Well...it's better if you actually want to know the ending, I suppose.
This was the first series by her that I read, and IMO by far the best.
I wouldn't have wanted to know what was going to happen beforehand,
although I recall being utterly convinced that Vanyel wasn't going to
survive long before I reached the end of the book.
I'm probably not the most objective person on this series, though. As
a 13 year old girl I read it and fell utterly in love with Vanyel, and
I suppose that has skewed my objectivity a bit. :-)
>My sister is heavily into Lackey; but I can't say that her
>descriptions have prompted me to try further. I particularly
>remember her telling me about some book (series?) involving
>an evil mage who'd been turned into a giant bird for reasons
>that escape me, and who was whiling away his time torturing and
>raping young girls. What can one say to that? Other than:
>Thanks, I'll pass.
Heh. None of that is entirely accurate, but I doubt you'd be more
Katherine Emblom
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <a8q37e$6kl$1...@wilson.uits.indiana.edu>,
>Katherine Emblom <kem...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>>I was saddened to find out that Lackey dropped this series as a result of
>>some psycho-stalker fan. I thought they were the most interesting of the
>>works, mostly because they didn't have that tried and true YA theme of
>>misunderstood-child-discovers-s/he-has-a-special-talent. _Jinx High_,
>>while the least strong, IMO, was interesting in that it alludes to
>>Lackey's own approach to writing.
>
> This would be the alleged stalking incident which involved
>people who thought the guardians were real, which allededly resulted in
>the poorly documented hordes of death ninjas at Dragoncon? The one with
>the alleged FBI investigation which oddly left no paper trail? That
>incident? The one that made Lackey write 'the last straw'?
>
> You want to look at
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=7tnevk%24ih6%241%40saltmine.radix.net
>
> Unless I munged the url (which frankly given the length is
>almost certain) in which case you won't.
You didn't munge the url. Interesting reading, indeed.
And thanks. I hadn't heard of this; perhaps I was in one of my Usenet
withdraw modes.
--Kate
--
J.B. Moreno
> Katherine Emblom <kem...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> >>Steve Parker <spar...@attbi.com> wrote:
-snip-
> >>> DIANA TREGARDE
> >>> 1 BURNING WATER (1989)
> >>> 2 CHILDREN OF THE NIGHT (1990)
> >>> 3 JINX HIGH (1991)
-snip-
> >I was saddened to find out that Lackey dropped this series as a result of
> >some psycho-stalker fan. I thought they were the most interesting of the
> >works, mostly because they didn't have that tried and true YA theme of
> >misunderstood-child-discovers-s/he-has-a-special-talent. _Jinx High_,
> >while the least strong, IMO, was interesting in that it alludes to
> >Lackey's own approach to writing.
>
> This would be the alleged stalking incident which involved
> people who thought the guardians were real, which allededly resulted in
> the poorly documented hordes of death ninjas at Dragoncon?
Yeah, that would be it.
BTW -- for those interested, a couple of her latest books have
introduced the Guardians into the same universe as Tammin (sp?) and the
rest of the merry gang of "Elves into stock-car racing".
--
JBM
"Your depression will be added to my own" -- Marvin of Borg
William George Ferguson
>> Katherine Emblom <kem...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>> >>Steve Parker <spar...@attbi.com> wrote:
>-snip-
>> >>> DIANA TREGARDE
>> >>> 1 BURNING WATER (1989)
>> >>> 2 CHILDREN OF THE NIGHT (1990)
>> >>> 3 JINX HIGH (1991)
>-snip-
>BTW -- for those interested, a couple of her latest books have
>introduced the Guardians into the same universe as Tammin (sp?) and the
>rest of the merry gang of "Elves into stock-car racing".
They were pretty much always in the same universe. Tannim, as a high
school youth, was a minor character in Jinx High and interacted with
Diana Tregarde.
--
I have a theory, it could be bunnies
erilar
loua...@yahoo.net wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2002 18:19:52 -0700, skye <sk...@dim.com> wrote:
>
> >Serpent's Shadow: This just came out last year or the year before
> >that, and is Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. You can do a
> >google search as there was a short and bitter discussion about
> >one particular incident in the book. What I came away with after
> >said discussion was the idea that because of this one anachronism,
> >the book was utterly useless.
I just finished that book and completely fail to recognize your
description. What on earth ARE you referring to?
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
J.B. Moreno
Didn't know that. OTOH, my basic point still remains -- although Diana
Tregarde seems to be gone, the Guardians aren't; they are alive and
well, with a couple of Bards living in the House.
skye
: In article <7db1bu4vmgbur6d4g...@4ax.com>,
:> On 6 Apr 2002 18:19:52 -0700, skye <sk...@dim.com> wrote:
:>
:> >Serpent's Shadow: This just came out last year or the year before
:> >that, and is Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. You can do a
:> >google search as there was a short and bitter discussion about
:> >one particular incident in the book. What I came away with after
:> >said discussion was the idea that because of this one anachronism,
:> >the book was utterly useless.
:
: I just finished that book and completely fail to recognize your
: description. What on earth ARE you referring to?
I'm a bit baffled. Are you saying you don't recognise my
description of the book? If so, feel free to go look at
Amazon's description of the book at:
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0756400619/qid=1018316669/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-1779946-0500153>
as I don't feel like "spoilering" this book any more.
Or are you saying you don't recognise my description of
a discussion on this newsgroup from last year in which
an incident of this book was mentioned in a negative light?
If so, Louann posted a short summary of TWO discussions
that occurred about this book, and you should read her post.
Thanks Louann! By the way, it was the former. I must have
missed the latter, both online and in the book, as I have
forgotten which mystery character you are speaking of.
-- skye
Louann Miller
>I'm a bit baffled. Are you saying you don't recognise my
>description of the book? If so, feel free to go look at
>Amazon's description of the book at:
><http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0756400619/qid=1018316669/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-1779946-0500153>
>as I don't feel like "spoilering" this book any more.
>
>Or are you saying you don't recognise my description of
>a discussion on this newsgroup from last year in which
>an incident of this book was mentioned in a negative light?
>If so, Louann posted a short summary of TWO discussions
>that occurred about this book, and you should read her post.
Actually I seem to have completely missed that thread at the time. My
remarks were based on my own impression of the book when it hit my
local library recently and I had extra reading time.
----
Was [the anachronism that made you dislike the book] the "we can both
quote a children's book written 45 years
from now" bit? Or the tribute character imported from a classic
mystery series who spends so much time jumping up and down going
"Look! I'm a tribute character! Get it? Get it?" that he gets in the
way of the plot?
----
>Thanks Louann! By the way, it was the former. I must have
>missed the latter, both online and in the book, as I have
>forgotten which mystery character you are speaking of.
Lord Peter Wimsey, with a different last name but with his mannerisms,
family relationships, speaking style, and title of nobility intact.
Playing romantic-lead Peter's best friend. If you've read a lot of
Dorothy Sayers it sort of leaps up and beats you over the head with
sledgehammers.
Louann
Joe Morris
> But somehow I enjoy Lackey's books, despite myself.
> Except for the covers. My god, the covers are horrific. They feature
> sensitive, big-eyed, wimpy, sissy horses and the sensitive, big-eyed,
> wimpy, sissy people who ride them (done in shocking pinks and
> lavenders) and they're all
>> A) embarrassing to walk around with and
>> B) make me vaguely nauseous
My response to the cover of "By the Sword" was that the artwork was
originally intended to be on a book titled "Barbie the Barbarian".
OTOH, consider the (ugh) consequences of letting Darryl Sweet do
the cover art...
Joe Morris
erilar
wrote:
> I'm a bit baffled. Are you saying you don't recognise my
> description of the book?
Exactly. I just finised reading a book with that title by Mercedes
Lackey two days ago. I did not get it via Amazon(I order books from
Barnes & Noble from time to time), but off a shelf in a bookstore, so I
read it with no preconceptions. I enjoyed the book, which struck me as
atypical of her work in several ways, but I happen to like her books
anyway.
I did not see the discussion in this forum, which I have only fairly
recently begun to read, and am not really interested in digging through
archives in search of it.
It's been a long time since I did a Proppian analysis of any fairy
tales, but I can't see _Serpent's Shadow_ as particularly amenable to
Vladimir Propp's formula, which can be applied to most fairy tales of
folk origin, which "Schneewittchen" is. Nor does it strike me as an
example of the Aarne/Thompson "tale types".
Perhaps the problem is that I have studied fairy tales too academically?
erilar
loua...@yahoo.net wrote:
>
> Lord Peter Wimsey, with a different last name but with his mannerisms,
> family relationships, speaking style, and title of nobility intact.
> Playing romantic-lead Peter's best friend. If you've read a lot of
> Dorothy Sayers it sort of leaps up and beats you over the head with
> sledgehammers.
>
Oh, but I love Lord Peter!
William George Ferguson
>>
>> >Serpent's Shadow: This just came out last year or the year before
>> >that, and is Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. You can do a
>> >google search as there was a short and bitter discussion about
>> >one particular incident in the book. What I came away with after
>> >said discussion was the idea that because of this one anachronism,
>> >the book was utterly useless.
>
<erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
> I just finished that book and completely fail to recognize your
>description. What on earth ARE you referring to?
The Snow White and the Seven Dwarves reference? It wouldn't really
have been more obvious if ML had called it Dusky Brown and the Seven
God-Avatar Animals. The heroine eats a poisoned fruit and falls into
a deep sleep, The pransome hinse and the Seven Animals storm the
witch, and the pransome hinse wakes Dusky Brown with a kiss.
The character homage was 'Lord Peter', with the Duchess of Denver
(Lord Peter's sister-in-law) playing the part of 'Lord Peter's mother,
and the Dowager Duchess (Lord Peter's mother) playing the part of
'Lord Peter's grandmother. The final epistelary chapter is a direct
homage to the beginning of Busman's Honeymoon.
I'm not remembering the specifics of the characters speaking lines
that were in a book that wasn't yet published when the novel is set
(early 1900s, pre-WWI), but I think it was more just anachronstic
bahavior on the part of the characters (which seems to happen in
pretty much all historical fantasies and romances) rather than an out
and out anachronism (if I'm misremembering, someone else will need to
provide the specific reference).
D. Gascoyne
"William George Ferguson" <william.geo...@domail.maricopa.edu>
wrote in message news:iha6bu8b0s0bridm8...@4ax.com...
quote, which another picks up as from St. Exupery, The Little Prince, which
wasn't published until many years after this novel was ostensibly set.
Debbie
Louann Miller
<erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>loua...@yahoo.net wrote:
>
>>
>> Lord Peter Wimsey, with a different last name but with his mannerisms,
>> family relationships, speaking style, and title of nobility intact.
>> Playing romantic-lead Peter's best friend. If you've read a lot of
>> Dorothy Sayers it sort of leaps up and beats you over the head with
>> sledgehammers.
>>
>
>Oh, but I love Lord Peter!
Yes, but this guy was betwixt and between. Enough LP that he took
attention away from the romantic lead we were _supposed_ to want her
to wind up with, but not enough that it actually became his story.
Louann, who is certainly going to give Paton-Walsh's next pastiche
every chance as she quite liked what she did with the rough notes to
"Thrones, Dominations."
Louann Miller
wrote:
I didn't remember the publication date of Little Prince when I was
reading the Lackey book. But considering that the frame story involves
a pilot, a fairly modern airplane, and engine trouble, I knew at a
glance that it couldn't have been published in the pre-WWI time
period where Lackey's book is set.
Louann
skye
: In article <3cb24905$1...@omega.dimensional.com>, skye <sk...@dim.com>
: wrote:
:> I'm a bit baffled. Are you saying you don't recognise my
:> description of the book?
: It's been a long time since I did a Proppian analysis of any fairy
: tales, but I can't see _Serpent's Shadow_ as particularly amenable to
: Vladimir Propp's formula, which can be applied to most fairy tales of
: folk origin, which "Schneewittchen" is. Nor does it strike me as an
: example of the Aarne/Thompson "tale types".
: Perhaps the problem is that I have studied fairy tales too academically?
I don't think so. Do you think the problem is that you might
have a different book? You haven't said what your version of
the Serpent's Shadow was about. Maybe if you do, you will find
that everyone else knows it by a different title?
-- skye
ObFairytale: http://mareimbrium.com/skye/index/titles.html
ObSF: I once read a version of Dragondrums where Robinton got the
girl, but the next night I was transferred to this dimension where
apparently he does not.
Brenda W. Clough
>Louann, who is certainly going to give Paton-Walsh's next pastiche
>every chance as she quite liked what she did with the rough notes to
>"Thrones, Dominations."
>
Good gosh, is she going to write another one?
Brenda <enjoyed T,D while reading it but not in retrospect>
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Louann Miller
<clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>Louann Miller wrote:
>
>>Louann, who is certainly going to give Paton-Walsh's next pastiche
>>every chance as she quite liked what she did with the rough notes to
>>"Thrones, Dominations."
>Good gosh, is she going to write another one?
That's what I hear. I don't know dates.
D. Gascoyne
"Louann Miller" <loua...@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:f2g8bu83hu8irigqe...@4ax.com...
D.
Abigail Ann Young
>
> Louann Miller wrote:
>
> >Louann, who is certainly going to give Paton-Walsh's next pastiche
> >every chance as she quite liked what she did with the rough notes to
> >"Thrones, Dominations."
> >
>
> Good gosh, is she going to write another one?
>
> Brenda <enjoyed T,D while reading it but not in retrospect>
>
Dorothy Sayers had actually written of T, D before her death? I am dying to
know what of the things that struck me as rather anachronistic might have
really been in, or implied in, the original text....
Abigail
--
Abigail Ann Young (Dr), Associate Editor/Records of Early English Drama/
Victoria College/ 150 Charles Street W/ Toronto Ontario Canada M5S 1K9
Phone (416) 585-4504/ FAX (416) 813-4093/ abigai...@utoronto.ca
List-owner of REED-L <http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed-l.html>
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/reed.html> REED's home page
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~reed/stage.html> our theatre resource page
<http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~young> my home page
Genevieve
It's supposed to be based on the Wimsey Papers. She posted for a
while on the Yahoogroup LordPeter, and now has a group of her own,
HarrietVane, after some disagreements cropped up. But for anybody who
is curious, both groups are still there and thriving.
Genevieve, or Mr. Parker on Lord Peter
Brenda W. Clough
>"Brenda W. Clough" wrote:
>
>>Louann Miller wrote:
>>
>>>Louann, who is certainly going to give Paton-Walsh's next pastiche
>>>every chance as she quite liked what she did with the rough notes to
>>>"Thrones, Dominations."
>>>
>>Good gosh, is she going to write another one?
>>
>>Brenda <enjoyed T,D while reading it but not in retrospect>
>>
>Oh No! I had hoped she wouldn't go on.... Is there any way to see what
>Dorothy Sayers had actually written of T, D before her death? I am dying to
>know what of the things that struck me as rather anachronistic might have
>really been in, or implied in, the original text....
>
Sayers stated (in letters to friends) that she had worked out the
seating at the dinner party, and laid out all the epigraphs for each
chapter. She also felt she had got the theme by the tail. One would
hope that Paterson had a little more to work with than that, but
probably not much more.
Brenda
Louann Miller
<clo...@erols.com> wrote:
>Abigail Ann Young wrote:
>>Oh No! I had hoped she wouldn't go on.... Is there any way to see what
>>Dorothy Sayers had actually written of T, D before her death? I am dying to
>>know what of the things that struck me as rather anachronistic might have
>>really been in, or implied in, the original text....
>Sayers stated (in letters to friends) that she had worked out the
>seating at the dinner party, and laid out all the epigraphs for each
>chapter. She also felt she had got the theme by the tail. One would
>hope that Paterson had a little more to work with than that, but
>probably not much more.
I was on the Lord Peter list for a while when Paton-Walsh was there,
although not right after TD came out. One thing I recall was that
Sayers had not written as far as the murder itself -- P-W was
contemplating a turnaround where victim kills murderer instead, but
decided against it.
Another bit was that she had a particular Sayers scene in hand but
decided not to use it. Apparently it involved the theme of married sex
as a sort of symbolic male-over-female conquest; having noticed that
this was not Peter's approach, Harriet was concerned enough that she
went to Uncle Pandarus to talk about the issue with him. P-W didn't
like this approach to the characters (and I have to agree) so she
instead used a more general discussion of the idea, privately between
Peter and Harriet, to convey the plot-essential bits.
P-W's guess about the uncompleted manuscript was that Sayers had
started it about the time of George V's death, and that his son
Edward's abdication of the throne shortly after made the royal-funeral
themes unpalatable for her to write about. I'm pretty sure that the
scenes about Edward being unreliable are pure P-W, since IIRC most of
that was not public knowledge at the time. Paton-Walsh takes a rather
hardline view of Edward; I think she described him as a Nazi
sympathizer or even a traitor in one of her posts.
Louann, who really ought to get back to those lists.
Genevieve Marie Ellerbee
Louann Miller (loua...@yahoo.net) wrote:
: I was on the Lord Peter list for a while when Paton-Walsh was there,
: although not right after TD came out. One thing I recall was that
: Sayers had not written as far as the murder itself -- P-W was
: contemplating a turnaround where victim kills murderer instead, but
: decided against it.
: Another bit was that she had a particular Sayers scene in hand but
: decided not to use it. Apparently it involved the theme of married sex
: as a sort of symbolic male-over-female conquest; having noticed that
: this was not Peter's approach, Harriet was concerned enough that she
: went to Uncle Pandarus to talk about the issue with him. P-W didn't
: like this approach to the characters (and I have to agree) so she
: instead used a more general discussion of the idea, privately between
: Peter and Harriet, to convey the plot-essential bits.
*snip*
: Louann, who really ought to get back to those lists.
Hi, Louann! I didn't realize you were on the list - we're currently
discussing Peter as a Bertie Wooster character, plus in the middle of
Unnatural Death, so if it's tempting, come on back. JPW no longer belongs
to LordPeter, IIRC, but she has a group called HarrietVane which discusses
the forthcoming book (or books, it now seems likely), based on the Wimsey
Papers and...after that, who knows.
Anyway, there is no part of T,D, that JPW didn't have to, at minimum, edit
heavily, as there was only a few fragments, a plot outline, and some
quotations that DLS thought would serve the themes of the book well. Some
of the characters are DLS brainchildren, but obviously brought to the page
by JPW, and some of the characters are of JPW's invention. The book takes
Peter and Harriet and contrasts them against the marriage of Rosamund and
Lawrence, (and even a third marriage of *spoiler* and *spoiler*)playing
with the ideas of sex, domination, manipulation, and
honesty, plus some side themes of family, loyalty, and the ever-looming
backdrop of the troubles in Europe.
Whether the book was a success or not is up to each reader to decide -
it's a very strong case of mileage varying to large degrees!
As for me, I will say only that I still occasionally re-read the book, but
it tends now to annoy me more than it delights me. There are still some
gems in it, though...
--
*Genevieve Ellerbee*wgmu.gmu.edu/geni* "The last refuge and surest
*remedy...when no other means will take effect, is, to let them go
*together and enjoy one another...Aesculapius himself cannot invent a
*better remedy...than that a Lover have his desire." - Burton
*"It's love that's holding back the weather." - King's X
Nancy Lebovitz
Ross TenEyck <ten...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>This is the only Lackey trilogy I've read -- I knew several people
>who really liked her books, and wanted to see if there was anything
>to them; a friend suggested this trilogy as being a good place to
>start. I've since gathered that this may not be true; apparently
>it's better to know some of the later events first, or something.
For what it's worth, I liked the first trilogy, and consider it
the best co-dependent wish-fullment fiction I've ever read.
Abused character finds group that values her, and where the
biggest fault is a moderate tendence to overextend oneself
for other people. *And* it's got perfect white horses/angels.
Seriously, I enjoyed reading it, and the second trilogy as
well. By the time I got to _The Last Herald Mage_, I was just
waiting for the main character to die and get it over with.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com 100 new slogans
I want to move to theory. Everything works in theory.
Garrett Fitzgerald
news:4iinau4so7873o181...@4ax.com:
> big hairy guys who have no
> innate gift for music or arts can ALSO be gay
This has probably been pointed out already, but the Evil Gym Coach... er,
Jervis tells Within off-stage that a lot of the fighters he had hired in
the past were gay, and that they were every bit as good fighters as the
straight guys were.
Steve Parker
Yeah, but you just *know* that all the "every bit as good" fighters
were wispy-thin, big-eyed, long-haired, sensitive, artsy types who,
weeping, write sonnets about the senslessness of war, while cutting
down enemies like a rabid wolverine on crack.
I wonder what Lackey was *thinking* when she had the Evil Gym Coach
make the "I wuz just beatin' th' sh*t out of you and making fun of
your orientation 'cuz yer dad wanted me to. I got nothin against gays"
revelation. It turns a perfectly good villian into a sad, pathetic
(and somehow *worse* villian: doing evil because you're evil at least
has some degree of honesty to it, but doing evil because your boss
told you to is just sad.) And I was infuriated when Lackey let Jervis
waltz off with the orphan kid. You don't give a child-abuser an
already damaged kid to further abuse.
Steve
--
My review pages have moved.AGAIN. The new address is
http://home.attbi.com/~sparker9/home.html
Brian Palmer
> I wonder what Lackey was *thinking* when she had the Evil Gym Coach
> make the "I wuz just beatin' th' sh*t out of you and making fun of
> your orientation 'cuz yer dad wanted me to. I got nothin against gays"
> revelation. It turns a perfectly good villian into a sad, pathetic
> (and somehow *worse* villian: doing evil because you're evil at least
> has some degree of honesty to it, but doing evil because your boss
> told you to is just sad.)
I thought it was her way of acknowledging that the earlier text was
entirely over-the-top, and reported basically from the perspective of
an inexperienced kid who was prepared to believe the worst about his
life. The revelation comes to a Vanyel who's much more adult and
trained to be perceptive; it makes sense. (The explanation that Jarvis
gives is somewhat pathetic; that also makes sense and adds to
atmosphere, as Vanyel is now viewing everything from the perspective
of having fought against demons and court intrigue; his home is no
longer impressive).
> And I was infuriated when Lackey let Jervis
> waltz off with the orphan kid. You don't give a child-abuser an
> already damaged kid to further abuse.
As presented in the text, Jervis seems to have not intended actual
abuse, and to have repented for what did happen. Since the orphan kid
also had a Magic Horse^W^WCompanion to alert when anything really bad
happened, it's probably not that big a risk.
Yes, _The Last Herald-Mage_ (the omnibus SFBC edition) was the first
book I read of Lackey's; I still re-read them occasionally.
--
If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of
exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an
idea, which an individual may exclusively possess [only] as long as he
keeps it to himself.... -- Thomas Jefferson
A.C.
news:0whads5...@epic14.Stanford.EDU...
> As presented in the text, Jervis seems to have not intended actual
> abuse, and to have repented for what did happen. Since the orphan kid
> also had a Magic Horse^W^WCompanion to alert when anything really bad
> happened, it's probably not that big a risk.
The one phrase that will prevent me from reading a book is the word "magic
horse" in the summary.
--
nomadi...@hotmail.com | http://nomadic.simspace.net
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other
countries because you were born in it."-- George Bernard Shaw
Konrad Gaertner
>
> "Brian Palmer" <bpa...@leland.stanford.edu> wrote in message
> news:0whads5...@epic14.Stanford.EDU...
>
> > As presented in the text, Jervis seems to have not intended actual
> > abuse, and to have repented for what did happen. Since the orphan kid
> > also had a Magic Horse^W^WCompanion to alert when anything really bad
> > happened, it's probably not that big a risk.
>
> The one phrase that will prevent me from reading a book is the word "magic
> horse" in the summary.
What about a book with a táltos horse?
--KG
A.C.
news:3CBB2D8E...@worldnet.att.net...
> "A.C." wrote:
> > The one phrase that will prevent me from reading a book is the word
"magic
> > horse" in the summary.
>
> What about a book with a táltos horse?
If you're going to put a horse in sf, it should be ridden, or eaten when
your other food runs out, and those are the only times they should be
mentioned in the story. Pay too much attention to the horse in the story,
and you are in danger of turning the entire book into a YA novel for mopey
14 year old girls.
David Eppstein
"A.C." <nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
> > What about a book with a táltos horse?
>
> If you're going to put a horse in sf, it should be ridden, or eaten when
> your other food runs out, and those are the only times they should be
> mentioned in the story. Pay too much attention to the horse in the story,
> and you are in danger of turning the entire book into a YA novel for mopey
> 14 year old girls.
I don't think _Brokedown Palace_ (the one with the táltos horse), or
Zelazny's _Dilvish_ books, or Shetterley's _Cats Have No Lord_, are
aimed at mopey 14yogs. Of course, in all of these, the horse may not be
a horse...
Also, there are very good books about mopey 14yogs, for instance
McKillip's _The Changeling Sea_.
I haven't read Lackey, but it seems from what I hear that her problems
with magic horsie-worsies are more a symptom than a cause of bad writing.
--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Emma Pease
> "Konrad Gaertner" <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:3CBB2D8E...@worldnet.att.net...
>> "A.C." wrote:
>
>> > The one phrase that will prevent me from reading a book is the word
> "magic
>> > horse" in the summary.
>>
>> What about a book with a táltos horse?
>
> If you're going to put a horse in sf, it should be ridden, or eaten when
> your other food runs out, and those are the only times they should be
> mentioned in the story. Pay too much attention to the horse in the story,
> and you are in danger of turning the entire book into a YA novel for mopey
> 14 year old girls.
And then there is Cherryh's Rider at the Gate which is an antidote for
many of those sorts of novels.
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Lee DeRaud
<nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
>"Konrad Gaertner" <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:3CBB2D8E...@worldnet.att.net...
>> "A.C." wrote:
>
>> > The one phrase that will prevent me from reading a book is the word
>"magic
>> > horse" in the summary.
>>
>> What about a book with a táltos horse?
>
>If you're going to put a horse in sf, it should be ridden, or eaten when
>your other food runs out, and those are the only times they should be
>mentioned in the story. Pay too much attention to the horse in the story,
>and you are in danger of turning the entire book into a YA novel for mopey
>14 year old girls.
Heh. C.J.Cherryh's 'Rider At The Gate' comes to mind...*not* a book
for mopey 14yo girls.
Lee
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
snip
>If you're going to put a horse in sf, it should be ridden, or eaten when
>your other food runs out, and those are the only times they should be
>mentioned in the story. Pay too much attention to the horse in the story,
>and you are in danger of turning the entire book into a YA novel for mopey
>14 year old girls.
Read Cherryh's _Rider At the Gate_ and _Cloud's Rider_ and *then* say
that.
I dare you.
With bacon.
jrw
erilar
>
> If you're going to put a horse in sf, it should be ridden, or eaten when
> your other food runs out, and those are the only times they should be
> mentioned in the story. Pay too much attention to the horse in the story,
> and you are in danger of turning the entire book into a YA novel for mopey
> 14 year old girls.
It's over half a century since I was 14, though a good deal less than
that since I read my first Lackey. I happen to LIKE the Companions, even
though I was never as horse-crazy as either my daughter or granddaughter
8-)
A.C.
news:3cbb6540...@news.aracnet.com...
Hmmm, third Rider At the Gate recommendation. Maybe I'll check it out. Not
that I have anything AGAINST horses mind you, it's just that they're
phenomenally stupid creatures, and horse-lovers tend to be somewhat
irritating, kind of like cat-lovers...
John David Galt
> If you're going to put a horse in sf, it should be ridden, or eaten when
> your other food runs out, and those are the only times they should be
> mentioned in the story. Pay too much attention to the horse in the story,
> and you are in danger of turning the entire book into a YA novel for mopey
> 14 year old girls.
ISTM that Sparhawk's horse in Edding's Diamond Throne series is a good
counter-example.
Garrett Fitzgerald
>>Coach... er, Jervis tells Within off-stage that a lot of the
>>fighters he had hired in the past were gay, and that they were every
>>bit as good fighters as the straight guys were.
>
> Yeah, but you just *know* that all the "every bit as good" fighters
> were wispy-thin, big-eyed, long-haired, sensitive, artsy types who,
> weeping, write sonnets about the senslessness of war, while cutting
> down enemies like a rabid wolverine on crack.
I just re-read that section: it's Withen, and it was the mercs that
Withen's dad had hired.
Jervis also makes a point of saying they "looked about as fey as me".
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
snip
>Hmmm, third Rider At the Gate recommendation. Maybe I'll check it out. Not
>that I have anything AGAINST horses mind you, it's just that they're
>phenomenally stupid creatures, and horse-lovers tend to be somewhat
>irritating, kind of like cat-lovers...
Sorry, you've clearly never spent time around the critters.
*Stupid* is in the mind of the beholder. But then, I consider them to
be more congenial company than dogs and more interesting than cats.
OTOH, anyone reading the Lackey horsey porn as their only contact with
horse writing would probably be entitled to hack up some vitriol with
regard to the beasts.
Try Cherryh. For that matter, even her non-horsey horseys (the
mechieti in the Foreigner universe) ring pretty dang true to the way
horses actually behave.
And as for the Rider at the Gate nighthorses, well, let's just say I
know some meat-eating horses....
jrw
A.C.
> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 01:21:34 GMT, "A.C."
> <nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >Hmmm, third Rider At the Gate recommendation. Maybe I'll check it out.
Not
> >that I have anything AGAINST horses mind you, it's just that they're
> >phenomenally stupid creatures, and horse-lovers tend to be somewhat
> >irritating, kind of like cat-lovers...
>
> Sorry, you've clearly never spent time around the critters.
Not much, but some.
> *Stupid* is in the mind of the beholder. But then, I consider them to
> be more congenial company than dogs and more interesting than cats.
They're herbivorous herd animals. Herd animals tend to be quite stupid in
comparison to other mammals. I mean, let's be honest here, if you put a
blindfold on a horse, that calms it down. Most animals get all riled up if
you block their sight, because they realize that weakens them.
--
nomadi...@hotmail.com | http://nomadic.simspace.net
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other
countries because you were born in it."-- George Bernard Shaw
>
Robert Sneddon
>
>If you're going to put a horse in sf, it should be ridden, or eaten when
>your other food runs out, and those are the only times they should be
>mentioned in the story.
David Weber's Bahzell fantasy series has a race of humanoid giants
called hradani (typically 7 foot plus tall, and muscular with it). One
of their clans is called the Horse Stealers, as they are infamous for
raiding the local human's horse herds. Being too big to ride the horses,
they do the next best thing -- eat them. This pisses off the humans
somewhat.
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
snip
>They're herbivorous herd animals. Herd animals tend to be quite stupid in
>comparison to other mammals.
Only if you don't analyze their behavior in context. Herd animals
have very specific hierarchies of social order, and operate most
securely within that context. If humans behave in manners which
horses can interpret within their knowledge and understanding of herd
behavior, then there can be some quite interesting and complex
interactions.
Same is true with rabbits, which are harder to tame but operate within
the same mode.
>I mean, let's be honest here, if you put a
>blindfold on a horse, that calms it down.
Erm, ever done it? Ever thought about the implications from the point
of view of a prey animal? I *wouldn't* call it calming down.
There's some sizeable mythology about blindfolding horses to deal with
problems, but calming it down isn't the purpose of blindfolding. If
that were the case, blindfolds instead of twitches would be more
common in subduing a horse for medical treatment. The fire stuff is a
myth.
Blindfolds are a *restraint* method, and they can backfire. Horses
can and will blow up when blindfolded...and I've not seen the method
used by any legitimate trainer I've worked with.
>Most animals get all riled up if
>you block their sight, because they realize that weakens them.
Again, have you ever *done* it, not depending upon hearsay?
Also keep in mind that blindfolding a rabbit--which is a herbivorous
herd animal--will elicit the same reaction as a cat. The difference
between a rabbit and a horse, however, is that a rabbit's backbone is
more flexible and allows for habitual pawing at the face as part of a
cleaning process.
Horses, however, are not designed to be fussing at their faces.
jrw
A.C.
> On Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:11:47 GMT, "A.C."
> <nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >They're herbivorous herd animals. Herd animals tend to be quite stupid
in
> >comparison to other mammals.
>
> Only if you don't analyze their behavior in context. Herd animals
> have very specific hierarchies of social order, and operate most
> securely within that context. If humans behave in manners which
> horses can interpret within their knowledge and understanding of herd
> behavior, then there can be some quite interesting and complex
> interactions.
Oh, horses' brains certainly are perfectly suited for their natural
ecological niche (though, of course, they've been bred by humans so long
that they no longer fit that niche exactly), but my objection is to their
treatment in literature. Again, I have nothing against horses, but rather
their portrayal as intelligent, sensitive creatures ready to gallop their
mistress to safety.
Actually I feel bad for them; being ridden is not a fundamentally enjoyable
thing, especially when your rider is as large as a human.
> Erm, ever done it? Ever thought about the implications from the point
> of view of a prey animal? I *wouldn't* call it calming down.
>
> There's some sizeable mythology about blindfolding horses to deal with
> problems, but calming it down isn't the purpose of blindfolding. If
> that were the case, blindfolds instead of twitches would be more
> common in subduing a horse for medical treatment. The fire stuff is a
> myth.
No, I've never blindfolded a horse. But I've rarely seen a horse not
wearing blinders, and I assume they serve some purpose.
William December Starr
Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> said:
> David Weber's Bahzell fantasy series has a race of humanoid giants
> called hradani (typically 7 foot plus tall, and muscular with
> it). One of their clans is called the Horse Stealers, as they are
> infamous for raiding the local human's horse herds. Being too big to
> ride the horses, they do the next best thing -- eat them. This
> pisses off the humans somewhat.
Damn. Given their name and the comment on their size and musculature,
I was half-expecting you to say:
Being too big to ride the horses,
they do the next best thing -- carry them.
-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
William December Starr
David Eppstein <epps...@ics.uci.edu> said:
>> Pay too much attention to the horse in the story, and you are in
>> danger of turning the entire book into a YA novel for mopey 14 year
>> old girls. ["A.C."]
>
> I don't think _Brokedown Palace_ (the one with the táltos horse), or
> Zelazny's _Dilvish_ books, or Shetterley's _Cats Have No Lord_, are
> aimed at mopey 14yogs. Of course, in all of these, the horse may
> not be a horse...
Of course, of course...
Robert Sneddon
<wds...@panix.com> writes
Heh. Bahzell himself is big, even for a hradani, and he'd probably just
manage to lift a pony if he didn't mind rupturing himself.
David W. has telepathic/empathic companion animals in his biggest-
selling series, the Honor Harrington saga. Those are six-legged
treecats. The Bahzell storyline also has magical empathic Companion
horses, belonging to the human horseherders (the Sothoii) mentioned
above. These "special" horses (called coursers) are about 25% larger
than ordinary horses (about 20 hands at the shoulder), and scale to
match the hradani, so fan speculation is that the storyline in the next
book is going to put Bahzell onto a horse that fits him. Unfortunately,
the Sothoii have been charged by two different Gods never to let any of
the coursers fall into the hands of others, and there is very bad blood
between the Sothoi and the hradani clans, and especially the Horse
Stealers.
Kylinn
<snip>
>, so fan speculation is that the storyline in the next
>book is going to put Bahzell onto a horse that fits him.
There's actually going to _be another one? I've been
waiting, and waiting, while Weber continues to write
Honor books, which I find less and less interesting.
I'd about given up on seeing another Bahzell book.
-Ky