Article on Copy"rights"
Geoffrey Kidd
Louann Miller
<sehlat...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Check out:
>
>http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north14.html
"Snake Plissken? I heard you were dead!"
I had wondered what happened to Gary North. He got awfully quiet after
1/1/00. That wasn't his first failed prediction, either.
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,17193,00.html
I'm not sure how creative people are going to be paid for their work
10 years from now (I hope a method is found so they _are_ paid; the
good stuff is rare enough as it is) but I feel pretty safe in
predicting that Mr. North will contribute nothing constructive to the
dialog.
Louann
Anncrispin
in the face that writers should write "for their art" and don't deserve
payment.
I don't know about anyone else, but for me, writing novels is too darned hard
to do and not get paid. If I knew I would never be paid again for my novels,
I'd find some other way to express my creativity. Painting, poetry...
something.
I'd also do more volunteer work.
Best,
-Ann C. Crispin
Mlindholm
Even if you set aside copyright issues (which I do not) there is the question
of quality control to consider. The person posting Dune on this board has
admitted that it is riddled with errors. He has even asked the general
readership of this board to volunteer as copy editors to correct the errors.
Does anyone believe this will yield an accurate, error-free copy of Dune?
Any reader who reads only this version will never know if he read Frank
Herbert's work, or Frank Herbert's work as edited by a team of chimps. (No,
'team of chimps' is not my opinion of the general readership of this board.
Only of any of those suckered into copyediting a project like this.)
Writers do care about the presentation of their work. Contracts do
specifically state that they can approve the copy edits, not only of the
hardback, but can re-check before the paperback appears to clean out any errors
that may have slipped in. That is an important process. It's painful to
discover an error in a published work with your name on it. It would be far
worse to wonder what errors had been multiplied as the work was copy edited, in
bits and pieces, by multiple readers. This is true no matter what the
intentions of those readers are.
Re copyright: Saying it's okay to steal copyrighted work because it's not yet
in the format you wish it to be in is hogwash. Writers don't sell books, my
friends. Writers sell RIGHTS to those books. E-leeching of those written
words erodes the value of the rights we are trying to sell. It is taking
royalty income from writers on the grounds that technology is moving too slowly
to suit you. You steal the value directly from me, the writer. It isn't
right. What publisher in his right mind would consider investing in putting
out a quality e-product if there are already corrupted, do-it-yourself e-copies
out there?
The potential for profit is what leads a company to invest in creating a
product. E-leeches sucking off that potential profit is not going to spur the
industry to respond by putting older books out in high quality e-format.
We've seen this before. For those of you interested in ancient history, look
at what Ace did to Tolkien.
Those of you who approve of courtesy, at least to living authors, will buy
authorized editions.
Megan
Louann Miller
>Louann, it's sad, but the book pirates will argue with you until they're blue
>in the face that writers should write "for their art" and don't deserve
>payment.
>
>I don't know about anyone else, but for me, writing novels is too darned hard
>to do and not get paid. If I knew I would never be paid again for my novels,
>I'd find some other way to express my creativity. Painting, poetry...
>something.
Not to mention the factor of _time._ Writing, especially thoughtful
and high-quality writing, takes an unconscionably large amount of time
for most people. Some writers (I understand that Bujold is one) need
that time in large uninterrupted chunks to get anything done. If they
have to spend 40 or 60 hours a week putting food on the table as well
as doing all the other life activities, a lot of books would never get
written no matter how much the artistic fulfillment calls.
Louann
Geoffrey Kidd
discussion, and I'm suddenly a "pirate arguing until I'm blue in the
face." I *pay* for my etexts and my "paperbackups" of the ones I
like best. So *don't* slander me like that again. You throw a lot of
threats around, so let me remind you that slander is just as
actionable as theft.
As to Gary North's track record, I pointed out to my wife around
September of last year that there were only two alternatives:
Either he was right, in which case there was no way to prepare for the
disaster and we were dead, or he was wrong, in which case his talents
as a prophet were questionable. :)
But North does have a very real point here: The Soviet Empire
registered copy machines and typewriters with the police. With PCs,
*everybody* has a printing press. The genie is out of the bottle, and
it's time to start figuring out our three wishes instead of cursing.
On 14 Sep 2000 18:37:12 GMT, anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) wrote:
>Louann, it's sad, but the book pirates will argue with you until they're blue
>in the face that writers should write "for their art" and don't deserve
>payment.
>
>I don't know about anyone else, but for me, writing novels is too darned hard
>to do and not get paid. If I knew I would never be paid again for my novels,
>I'd find some other way to express my creativity. Painting, poetry...
>something.
>
Geoffrey Kidd
First: I have paid for my etexts(with one exception noted below),
either directly from the author's website (www.scifi-az.com for
Michael McCollum's stuff) or the publisher (www.baen.com) In the case
of Baen's books, I frequently buy the "paperbackups" of what is, IMHO,
the really good stuff. After all, systems can fail, power can go out,
files can get corrupted, but paper will at least outlive *ME*.
Second: In the case of Harry Potter, I *have* the dead tree editions,
but read the etexts posted to the net. Reason: I could stuff the
etexts into my Palm. It's harder to compress paper. :) Since the
publisher was paid for the dead trees, I regard my possession of the
etexts, *WHICH I DO NOT FURTHER DISTRIBUTE* as "fair use." In
fact, had the publisher provided the etext for, say, a further $5 on
top of the paper price, I'd have paid it gladly.
Third: "Those of you who approve of courtesy, at least to living
authors, will buy authorized editions." A hearty "Hear, Hear!!!" But
please note that the fact *somebody* was willing to scan and put the
text out if the book is OOP should serve as a notice to publishers
that the book isn't dead yet. And yes, I live up to that. I scanned
my copy of J. F. Bone's "The Lani People" to preserve it for my own
reading,, but was utterly delighted that Dr. Bone was willing to allow
the book's release to Project Gutenberg.
Captain Button
[ snip ]
> But North does have a very real point here: The Soviet Empire
> registered copy machines and typewriters with the police. With PCs,
> *everybody* has a printing press. The genie is out of the bottle, and
> it's time to start figuring out our three wishes instead of cursing.
I haven't read the article referred to, but the point about the Soviet
Union and copy machines and PCs as printing presses goes back well into
the 1980s. I remember Jerry Pournelle going on about it, and he probably
wasn't the first.
--
"You may have trouble getting permission to aero or lithobrake
asteroids on Earth." - James Nicoll
Captain Button - [ but...@io.com ]
Anncrispin
>From: Geoffrey Kidd sehlat...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
>Date: 9/14/00 3:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id:
><C09838B975621F20.D8EC5611...@lp.airnews.net>
>
>Interesting attitude: I post a link to an opinion as a point for
>discussion, and I'm suddenly a "pirate arguing until I'm blue in the
>face." I *pay* for my etexts and my "paperbackups" of the ones I
>like best. So *don't* slander me like that again. You throw a lot of
>threats around, so let me remind you that slander is just as
>actionable as theft.
>
Dear Mr. Kidd:
Feel free to do whatever you need to do in this life. If you need the name of
my counsel, I'll be happy to provide it, and ask him to accept service in the
suit.
Have a nice day.
:-)
-Ann C. Crispin
Geoffrey Kidd
readable and understandable.
Now if only I found your *professional* writing to be of the same
quality.
You have a nice day too. :)
On 14 Sep 2000 22:40:54 GMT, anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) wrote:
[snipped]
Anncrispin
spent the afternoon cowering under my bed...
As for whether you like my writing or not (assuming you've ever read any, which
is a big assumption), well...
<shrug>
makes no never mind to me. As the man once said, can't please all the people
all the time.
Have a nice tomorrow, too.
-Ann C. Crispin
Geoffrey Kidd
:p
On 14 Sep 2000 23:02:49 GMT, anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) spake:
>As for whether you like my writing or not (assuming you've ever read any, which
>is a big assumption), well...
You have a good tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, next
decade, next century and next millennium.
Anncrispin
Have a nice life.
-Ann C. Crispin
Lee Ann Rucker
<C09838B975621F20.D8EC5611...@lp.airnews.net>,
sehlat@uclink4.***NOSPAM***.berkeley.edu wrote:
>Interesting attitude: I post a link to an opinion as a point for
>discussion, and I'm suddenly a "pirate arguing until I'm blue in the
>face."
I got the impression that Ann was writing about the contents of the link
you posted. The article's about pirates, her response is about pirates.
It doesn't mention you at all.
>
>On 14 Sep 2000 18:37:12 GMT, anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) wrote:
>>Louann, it's sad, but the book pirates will argue with you until they're blue
>>in the face that writers should write "for their art" and don't deserve
>>payment.
>>
>>I don't know about anyone else, but for me, writing novels is too darned hard
>>to do and not get paid. If I knew I would never be paid again for my novels,
>>I'd find some other way to express my creativity. Painting, poetry...
>>something.
>>
>>I'd also do more volunteer work.
>>
>>Best,
--
Working at Apple for Javasoft
laru...@apple.com <- new address!
Also at (but not very often) leeann...@eng.sun.com
Jonathan W Hendry
> Check out:
> http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north14.html
Gary North is a nitwit with amazingly poor critical thinking
skills. Does his bloody stupid doom & gloom Y2K site still
exist?
Ian Burrell
mlin...@aol.com (Mlindholm) wrote:
> Regarding so-called "e-pirates':
>
> Even if you set aside copyright issues (which I do not) there is the
question
> of quality control to consider. The person posting Dune on this board
has
> admitted that it is riddled with errors. He has even asked the
general
> readership of this board to volunteer as copy editors to correct the
errors.
>
> Does anyone believe this will yield an accurate, error-free copy of
Dune?
>
> Any reader who reads only this version will never know if he read
Frank
> Herbert's work, or Frank Herbert's work as edited by a team of chimps.
(No,
> 'team of chimps' is not my opinion of the general readership of this
board.
> Only of any of those suckered into copyediting a project like this.)
>
It is even worse. There is nothing to stop pirates from claiming that
they wrote the book. Or changing it completely. This doesn't seem to
happen much with old public domain works but that is mainly because they
are well known. Copyright not only protects copying and distribution but
rights to derivative works.
- Ian
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mlindholm
>Second: In the case of Harry Potter, I *have* the dead tree editions,
>but read the etexts posted to the net. Reason: I could stuff the
>etexts into my Palm. It's harder to compress paper. :) Since the
>publisher was paid for the dead trees, I regard my possession of the
>etexts, *WHICH I DO NOT FURTHER DISTRIBUTE*
Actually, this addresses precisely the point I'm trying to make, and it shows
the deep misunderstanding that exists here. With no hostility from me toward
this poster, please let me try to explain.
A. Joe Writer creates the work.
B. Joe Writer sells Big Publisher the Right to put out a book containing the
work. He doesn't sell the work itself. That belongs to Joe forever (unless he
is dumb enough to sign a Work For Hire agreement, but that is another kettle of
fish.)
C. Please assume that all other rights (magazine rights, movie rights, audio
tape rights, cartoon and t-shirts, and whatever else you can think of) still
belong to Joe Writer. This includes E-rights.
Later on, Joe Writer can sell those rights. He can sell UK rights or German
rights or Japanese rights. He can sell a magazine the right to serialize the
work. He can sell the work as a premise for a tv show or a cartoon.
He might even sell the rights to make it into an e-book.
Selling rights is how writers get money to live so they can write books. If
Joe Writer's book goes out of print, the rights revert to him (in most
contracts.) He can then sell those rights again.
Now, please note: one person making a personal e-copy of a book they already
own is not what I am talking about here. I am talking about someone taking a
writer's work, and usurping all the e-rights to it by posting it on the web.
All those rights are now devalued. Much as if I borrowed your car and added
50,000 miles to it. Your car might still exist, it might still run, but you
won't get the same price for it. Everyone who wanted a ride in your car
already had one.
An e-publisher will not want to buy e-rights to my work if that work has
already been stolen and put out on the web.
In the post I quoted above, the poster says "since the publisher was paid for
the dead trees." That's fine. But the writer was not paid for the e-rights,
and the writer is the one who owns them. Again, speaking for myself as a
writer, if one of my readers makes a personal e-copy, I'm probably not going to
mind. But I do want people to understand that those rights are mine. I
created that work.
One more bit from Geoffrey Kidd's post
>please note that the fact *somebody* was willing to scan and put the
>text out if the book is OOP should serve as a notice to publishers
>that the book isn't dead yet.
Again, the misconception is that those rights belong to the publisher. They
may, if the writer gave them away in the book contract. But they may not. The
publisher may not give a hoot if you e-publish it all. The publisher bought
the book rights, and he sold the books. He got paid for the books from people
who wanted books.
The writer (that's me) is the one left holding the empty bag.
The way to get works you enjoy made into e-copies is to write to e-publishers
and let them know about it. Suggest to them the authors and titles of works
you'd like to see in that format. Then the e-publisher can approach the
writer's agent and get the ball rolling.
Perhaps I am naive, but I truly believe that no one is out to rip me (or any
other author) off personally. I think that a great many of the people
illegally putting copyrighted works up on the internet don't understand that
they are financially injuring the very authors they say they admire. They
think they are snitching one copy of a book that a publishing house will never
miss. That is not the case.
Sincerely,
Megan
Louann Miller
>>That's true. *I* wouldn't assume anybody had read your work, either.
>>:p
>No argument from me. I'm an obscure midlist writer. :-)
Does that mean we can make a sharp swerve into discussing Virtuous
Small Bookstores Who Sell You What You Should Want vs. Evil Monopolist
Jeff Bezos?
Pat Holt (Holt Uncensored) is about to start charging for her
column/website, and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms already.
Louann
John Ringo
All these replies are at the top! So why aren't these guys getting blasted
for it?
John
By the way, I think you two need to get somebody to moderate your sandbox
pissing contest.
--
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad
girls live.
-- George Carlin
See sample chapters for my upcoming book "A Hymn Before Battle" (Baen
Publishing) at:
http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200007/0671319418.htm?blurb
www.johnringo.com
"Geoffrey Kidd" <sehlat...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:70218E1670230E5E.C0B9BACD...@lp.airnews.net...
> Beautiful reply!!! Crisp(no pun intended), clear, and eminently
> readable and understandable.
>
> Now if only I found your *professional* writing to be of the same
> quality.
>
John Ringo
any
> other author) off personally.
I feel the same way. Which is why I think that all books should be "ebooked"
right along with the dead tree. But...
If you deal with a publisher who wants $24.95 for your dead tree AND $24.95
for your ebook version I guaran-f***kin-tee you the ebook will be ripped
off. And you won't get a dime out of the deal.
The fact is that ebooks are too easy to distribute. So the logic is that you
have to find a price point at which _most_ of the readers are willing to pay
you on the honor system. The software industry has been doing this for
years; it's called shareware.
I'm a writer so you gotta know I love the copyright laws. BUT I'M A SCIENCE
FICTION WRITER so you gotta know I have my eye on how technology changes
life. And copyright as it has existed for the last couple of hundred years
(in places) is just about a thing of the past. You can fight it all you want
but that will just get you sorry and sore. The thing to do is to figure out
where the writer's niche is going to be (and the agent's and the publishers
and the editors) in the wave.
And, remember, waves are not one shot things. Right now the writer's place
is firmly on the side of truth and light (copyright.) But in the very near
future it might be that being one of the Dark Side (infinite distribution)
will be a better position for the writer.
Things change. Copyright changes. Laws are born, flourish and senesce. I
love copyright. But I don't see it surviving in its current form, either.
Let me add that this is not support for the pirates. It is, in a way, very
on topic. If this isn't an Sfnal discussion I don't know what is.
:-)
One last note, a plug or an ad or whatever if you will but very germane.
Baen does all his books as eversions _first_. In the galley copy stage. They
"max out" at $2.50 per book because he publishes the whole month's list
(however many books, I've seen as many as 7) for $10. And he publishes them
in html. (And rocket and palm and, COMING SOON, rtf.) He also has somewhere
near a hundred up already (the program just hit its one year anniversary.)
Divvying up the money is a bit tough, but the authors of the month share
royalties (20% which is friggin' high for hardcopy) based on "hardcopy"
sales.
Contrast this to @Random which charges full hardcopy price for the etext,
has about 20 titles and is in proprietary format.
Which do you think are showing up on alt.ebooks?
Oh, and if you think that the royalties are low, note that although the
costs of ebooks are not as high as printing, there _are_ costs and with the
_price_ that low I doubt Jim is "ripping off his artists." I've seen authors
that want 50-60-80% royalties off of ebooks! Come on, what do they think it
is a printing press???? (Although, if they get the same as a dead tree
version I can see where _I_ would want 80%!)
I've said this before and I'll say it again: with tweaking that can only be
determined by the market, Webscriptions _is_ the future of epublishing. It
is open format and pay by honor. That is where the market will end up and,
frankly, I don't think the _writers_ will be hammered. They might even end
up much better than they are.
(If you want to know who _will_ be hammered by this, in the long run, email
me.)
John
--
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad
girls live.
-- George Carlin
See sample chapters for my upcoming book "A Hymn Before Battle" (Baen
Publishing) at:
http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200007/0671319418.htm?blurb
www.johnringo.com
"Mlindholm" <mlin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000915030102...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
> On Sept 14, Geoffrey Kidd wrote:
>
snip
phil hunt
>
>Re copyright: Saying it's okay to steal copyrighted work because it's not yet
>in the format you wish it to be in is hogwash. Writers don't sell books, my
>friends. Writers sell RIGHTS to those books. E-leeching of those written
>words erodes the value of the rights we are trying to sell. It is taking
>royalty income from writers on the grounds that technology is moving too slowly
>to suit you. You steal the value directly from me, the writer. It isn't
>right. What publisher in his right mind would consider investing in putting
>out a quality e-product if there are already corrupted, do-it-yourself e-copies
>out there?
Why should a writer *need* a publisher? One of the functions of the internet
will be to reduce middlemen.
E.g. Stephen King.
>The potential for profit is what leads a company to invest in creating a
>product. E-leeches sucking off that potential profit is not going to spur the
>industry to respond by putting older books out in high quality e-format.
>
>We've seen this before. For those of you interested in ancient history, look
>at what Ace did to Tolkien.
What did they do?
>Those of you who approve of courtesy, at least to living authors, will buy
>authorized editions.
It seems to me that there is a lot different whether the author is
alive.
--
*****[ Phil Hunt ]*****
"An unforseen issue has arisen with your computer. Don't worry your silly
little head about what has gone wrong; here's a pretty animation of a
paperclip to look at instead."
-- Windows2007 error message
Anncrispin
Your arguments are cogent and interesting. But I'm afraid we can't all be Baen
authors. (That especially applies to me. My politics and Mr. Baen's are 180
degrees apart. <G>)
In order to protect myself a bit from piracy (and ONLY for that reason, I don't
expect to make one thin dime off it) I'm considering putting up some of my
backlist as e-books.
I don't really want to do it, but, as Megan has pointed out, once my books get
scanned and turned "loose," they lose most, if not all, of their value as
possible hard-copy reprints. I have a reprint deal in the works, and I'm
sweating it, frankly. My books could become worthless any day now.
It's unfortunate when authors have to do something they really don't want
because pirates are so willing to break the law and infringe on their rights.
BTW, if you've looked over on alt.binaries.e-book, you'll see people defaming
me in every possible way...my morals, my writing, you name it. I assure you, I
was never anything but unfailingly polite in that newsgroup. Pirates just
don't like being reminded that they are doing something wrong. (In their
hearts, they do know this, they wouldn't get that mad if they didn't.)
These misguided people want to see themselves as noble Robin Hoods, helping out
their friends, and helping the author, too -- !!
Best,
-Ann C. Crispin
Robert Carnegie
So paying to read it isn't an option for you? :-)
Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland
John Ringo
Baen
> authors. (That especially applies to me. My politics and Mr. Baen's are
180
> degrees apart. <G>)
Ann:
I feel for you and understand the political issue. And if your politics are
where I think they are, the thing to remember is that Jim knows they will
piss off his _readers_ (they would have with me.:-) My only hope is that
someday the rest of the industry will get a clue. Or at least a dime to buy
one. And then you can go get published by someone with a name and a similar
program.
By the way, Jim's take on WS is that currently "it makes its nut." He isn't
raking in the dough and neither are the authors on _it_. OTOH, you wouldn't
BELIEVE the number of new readers it's dragging in just by its existence.
Many of whom don't even get the WS, they just like the "approach." Based on
actual sales over projected, from what I have gleaned, it has to have
seriously kicked sales for all the authors. And that is without a single
major media source even noticing it.
<Sigh>
As to backlist; until there is a _serious_ increase in subscribers it just
wouldn't be worth the expense. And there _are_ LARGE expenses, equivalent to
redoing the book, to bringing out backlist that is not already in electronic
format.
John
--
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad
girls live.
-- George Carlin
See sample chapters for my upcoming book "A Hymn Before Battle" (Baen
Publishing) at:
http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200007/0671319418.htm?blurb
www.johnringo.com
"Anncrispin" <anncr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000915103927...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
> Dear Mr. Ringo:
>
> Your arguments are cogent and interesting. But I'm afraid we can't all be
Baen
> authors. (That especially applies to me. My politics and Mr. Baen's are
180
> degrees apart. <G>)
>
snip
Dorothy J Heydt
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
>> Pat Holt (Holt Uncensored) is about to start charging for her
>> column/website, and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms already.
>>
>So paying to read it isn't an option for you? :-)
Considering that the ways I know about that you could pay for it
are (a) give them your credit card number and (b) submit to a
page crawling, not just with advertisements, but with
advertisements that flash and change color and jump up and down
and are cast in such a way as to appeal to those who aren't very
bright, maybe it isn't.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
John Ringo <john...@cuthis.mindspring.exthisout.com.invalid> wrote in
message news:8pt6j0$mka$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> Hey!
>
> All these replies are at the top! So why aren't these guys getting blasted
> for it?
I suspect nobody else is interested in getting involved. If they were, it
would be awkward to reply in proper sequence, and people would then bitch
about it.
--
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Louann Miller
<rja.ca...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
>In article <ld64sscabsq0d4e0g...@4ax.com>,
> Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.net> wrote:
>> On 14 Sep 2000 23:29:00 GMT, anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) wrote:
>>
>> >>That's true. *I* wouldn't assume anybody had read your work, either.
>> >>:p
>>
>> >No argument from me. I'm an obscure midlist writer. :-)
>> Does that mean we can make a sharp swerve into discussing Virtuous
>> Small Bookstores Who Sell You What You Should Want vs. Evil Monopolist
>> Jeff Bezos?
>> Pat Holt (Holt Uncensored) is about to start charging for her
>> column/website, and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms already.
>So paying to read it isn't an option for you? :-)
$40 a year -- I could buy two hardcovers for that. I've gotten three
letters published over the last year, and she's invariably been
civil-to-cordial in my personal dealings with her, but it's still like
pounding your head against a brick wall.
She'll write a sentence like "Before the chains arrived, independent
bookstores were growing in an organic way even though _some people_
(emphasis mine) may not have felt it was fast enough." No apparent
awareness, however many times it's pointed out to her, that the class
of "people" in the above sentence is "book-reading customers who
wanted to buy a wider range of books without the hassles of
two-to-six-week special ordering."
One of my local SF friends is also a Holt reader, and we occasionally
get together to tear our hair out about this sort of thing. It's not
just that she can use phrases like "take over the world" about evil
corporations (working def: anyone larger than Powell's) and seriously
mean it. It's not just that she thinks outlawing below-cover-price
discounts and enforcing sales taxes on net sales would be both morally
good and politically popular. (Hint: compare number of small retailers
vs. number of consumers.)
It's that she's an enabler for small bookstores who want to blame
their declining revenues on anything and everything except the radical
notion "maybe the customer _likes_ the way those other guys do
business." The only practical effect I can see from her columns is
that such retailers are going to refuse to make any changes in their
business practices -- since we're _right_ and everybody else is
_wrong_ -- and that some of them may go out of business when a little
adaptability could have saved them. And she's never, ever going to see
it that way. It'll only get worse under the subscription system --
nobody will read her column who doesn't already feel small stores are
perfect.
Louann
John Ringo
> their declining revenues on anything and everything except the radical
> notion "maybe the customer _likes_ the way those other guys do
> business."
In support of the above and fully aware that I am about to spout heresy
again...
I have never lived in a town that had a bookseller that supported _me_
before my first Barnes and Noble. I lived in Atlanta and had access to
Oxford books which at the time was the biggest darn bookstore I'd ever seen.
Their SF section was dwarfed by a mall Walden's. They were so happy to
support "real" readers -- ie the sort of people who reread Tolstoy when they
can't find something artsy enough -- that the only book I ever bought there
was a special order Asterix and Obelix that I had to pay through the nose to
get.
I _love_ B&N. I _love_ Amazon. I'm sorry for the Mom & Pops in the same way
I'm sorry for buggy makers and the small town clothing shops that used to
jack their prices up as high as they could and drive in the fancy cars when
everyone was wandering around in ragged overalls.
Sorry for the last rant. You had to live in a small town in N. Fla. in the
1960s to get that one. Or read Barry Hughart and note Ma Fang.
But the issue is the same. Small bookstores invariably catered to their
favored clientele and unless you were someone who shared the taste of the
owner it was "take it or nothing." This was not good marketing. And (along
with bulk sales) it killed them.
John
--
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad
girls live.
-- George Carlin
See sample chapters for my upcoming book "A Hymn Before Battle" at:
http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200007/0671319418.htm?blurb
Available in October from Baen Publishing wherever fine books are sold!
:-)
www.johnringo.com
"Louann Miller" <loua...@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:bdh4ssoqeappc4mt9...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 15:41:57 GMT, Robert Carnegie
> <rja.ca...@mailexcite.com> wrote:
>
snip
> >> Pat Holt (Holt Uncensored) is about to start charging for her
> >> column/website, and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms already.
>
> >So paying to read it isn't an option for you? :-)
>
snip
Laura Higley
> Considering that the ways I know about that you could pay for it
> are (a) give them your credit card number and
Lots of people who are uncomfortable giving their credit
card number to a bank via the web have no problem giving
their credit card to a sixteen year-old in a gas station.
--
Laura Higley http://www.nitelinks.com
Welcome to the world of electronic books!
John Ringo
snip
> Lots of people who are uncomfortable giving their credit
> card number to a bank via the web have no problem giving
> their credit card to a sixteen year-old in a gas station.
And due to this discomfort Webscriptions offers a "pay by check" option.
John
--
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad
girls live.
-- George Carlin
See sample chapters for my upcoming book "A Hymn Before Battle" at:
http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200007/0671319418.htm?blurb
Available in October from Baen Publishing wherever fine books are sold!
:-)
www.johnringo.com
"Laura Higley" <La...@onyxcat.net> wrote in message
news:39C24FD9...@onyxcat.net...
Jonathan W Hendry
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Considering that the ways I know about that you could pay for it
>> are (a) give them your credit card number and
> Lots of people who are uncomfortable giving their credit
> card number to a bank via the web have no problem giving
> their credit card to a sixteen year-old in a gas station.
I've thought for a while that the credit card issuers should
try providing customers with a separate linked account number
with a $100 or $200 limit, for use online.
Apparently American Express is going to have some kind
of scheme for one-use account numbers; if someone steals
the number, it does them no good.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<jhe...@ux1.depaul.edu> wrote:
snip
>I've thought for a while that the credit card issuers should
>try providing customers with a separate linked account number
>with a $100 or $200 limit, for use online.
One word for y'all:
PayPal. Works fine.
jrw
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Anncrispin <anncr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000915103927...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
> Dear Mr. Ringo:
>
> Your arguments are cogent and interesting. But I'm afraid we can't all be
Baen authors. (That especially applies to me. My politics and Mr. Baen's
are
180 degrees apart. <G>)
don't
expect to make one thin dime off it) I'm considering putting up some of my
backlist as e-books.
I don't really want to do it, but, as Megan has pointed out, once my books
get
scanned and turned "loose," they lose most, if not all, of their value as
possible hard-copy reprints. I have a reprint deal in the works, and I'm
sweating it, frankly. My books could become worthless any day now.
What do you think of the Street Performers Payment Protocol idea? (sorry, no
url handy, but a web search might turn it up). Along those lines, some of
the writers on sff.net have set up a site called, IIRC,
storytellersbowl.com, to provide a means of doing this type of distribution,
although I don't know if there's any fiction up on it yet.
--
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Jonathan W Hendry <jhe...@ux1.depaul.edu> wrote in message
news:39c2...@news.depaul.edu...
> Laura Higley <La...@onyxcat.net> wrote:
> > Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
> >> Considering that the ways I know about that you could pay for it
> >> are (a) give them your credit card number and
>
> > Lots of people who are uncomfortable giving their credit
> > card number to a bank via the web have no problem giving
> > their credit card to a sixteen year-old in a gas station.
>
> try providing customers with a separate linked account number
> with a $100 or $200 limit, for use online.
>
> of scheme for one-use account numbers; if someone steals
> the number, it does them no good.
One of the banks here in Ireland has just started to provide this. For its
credit card
customers, it will generate a one-time-only credit card number for web
transactions.
--
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Eimear Ni Mhealoid
Andrew Plotkin
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Considering that the ways I know about that you could pay for it
>> are (a) give them your credit card number and
> Lots of people who are uncomfortable giving their credit
> card number to a bank via the web have no problem giving
> their credit card to a sixteen year-old in a gas station.
I have already addresssed this objection in an earlier post.
--Z (I'm sorry, but bleah already)
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
pounc...@my-deja.com
> Pat Holt (Holt Uncensored) is about to start charging for her
> column/website, and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms already.
If she charges, as host and publisher, do contributers (such
as yourself) get paid in turn?
Jonathan W Hendry
> Anncrispin <anncr...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000915103927...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
>> Dear Mr. Ringo:
>>
>> Your arguments are cogent and interesting. But I'm afraid we can't all be
> Baen authors. (That especially applies to me. My politics and Mr. Baen's
> are
> 180 degrees apart. <G>)
> In order to protect myself a bit from piracy (and ONLY for that reason, I
> don't
> expect to make one thin dime off it) I'm considering putting up some of my
> backlist as e-books.
> I don't really want to do it, but, as Megan has pointed out, once my books
> get
> scanned and turned "loose," they lose most, if not all, of their value as
> possible hard-copy reprints. I have a reprint deal in the works, and I'm
> sweating it, frankly. My books could become worthless any day now.
> What do you think of the Street Performers Payment Protocol idea?
Well, I wonder if the protocol's inventors have ever lived as
street performers, or been subjected to the worst that
street performers have to offer.
J.B. Moreno
> Dear Mr. Ringo:
>
> Your arguments are cogent and interesting. But I'm afraid we can't all be Baen
> authors. (That especially applies to me. My politics and Mr. Baen's are 180
> degrees apart. <G>)
Eric Flint is a commie (card carrying I do believe) so it's not
necessarily your personal politics that would make the difference. I
continue to think that the _StarBridge_ books could have gotten by him
and been accepted by his readership.
--
JBM
"Moebius strippers only show you their back side." -- Unknown
Laura Higley
> In order to protect myself a bit from piracy (and ONLY for that reason, I don't
> expect to make one thin dime off it) I'm considering putting up some of my
> backlist as e-books.
Will your paper publisher work with you in this endeavor?
Paper books are subject to piracy as well, a fact to which
many paper publishers turn a blind eye even in the face of
incontrovertible proof. Napsterizing your works probably
won't discourage the pirates. But your fans might really
like the opportunity to buy and read some of your out of
print works in an official format, since pirated works are
usually low quality. Insist that your e-publisher pay
careful attention to book design, both for artistic reasons,
and for the audience's comfort. By e-publishing your work,
you have the chance not only to bypass would-be pirates, but
to offer your work to segments of the population who
normally may not be able to read your work. (home-bound,
blind/vision-impaired, military personnel, and others.)
Anncrispin
I have nothing more to say.
-Ann C. Crispin
Dorothy J Heydt
Laura Higley <La...@nitelinks.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> Considering that the ways I know about that you could pay for it
>> are (a) give them your credit card number and
>
>Lots of people who are uncomfortable giving their credit
>card number to a bank via the web have no problem giving
>their credit card to a sixteen year-old in a gas station.
Perhaps they can reason from A to B but not from B to C?
The local megawholesale outlet, Costco/Price Club, recently built
itself new quarters and added among other things a gas station.
So the next time we went there Hal drove into it, cash in hand,
and was told they only took credit cards, and drove right out
again.
OTOH Hal will on occasion order assorted computer components over
the Web via credit card.
There's a point to be made there somewhere, give me time and I
may think of it.
John Ringo
to time. He's shorter and lighter than I and tends to have characters that
mutter which drives me insane when I read him. He's also somewhat older and
a pinko commie. He has never been in the military.
I _think_ I'm a different person. At least the voices in my head say so.
John
--
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad
girls live.
-- George Carlin
See sample chapters for my upcoming book "A Hymn Before Battle" at:
http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200007/0671319418.htm?blurb
Available in October from Baen Publishing wherever fine books are sold!
:-)
www.johnringo.com
"Anncrispin" <anncr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000915150158...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
Geoffrey Kidd
trying to raise. She started in on a rant about "pirates" with whom
I have not the *least* sympathy and, by implication, lumped me in
with them.
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:27:00 -0700, laru...@apple.com (Lee Ann
Rucker) wrote:
>In article
><C09838B975621F20.D8EC5611...@lp.airnews.net>,
>sehlat@uclink4.***NOSPAM***.berkeley.edu wrote:
>
>>Interesting attitude: I post a link to an opinion as a point for
>>discussion, and I'm suddenly a "pirate arguing until I'm blue in the
>>face."
>
>I got the impression that Ann was writing about the contents of the link
>you posted. The article's about pirates, her response is about pirates.
>It doesn't mention you at all.
>
James Nicoll
J.B. Moreno <pl...@newsreaders.com> wrote:
>Anncrispin <anncr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Mr. Ringo:
>>
>> Your arguments are cogent and interesting. But I'm afraid we can't all be Baen
>> authors. (That especially applies to me. My politics and Mr. Baen's are 180
>> degrees apart. <G>)
>
>Eric Flint is a commie (card carrying I do believe) so it's not
>necessarily your personal politics that would make the difference. I
>continue to think that the _StarBridge_ books could have gotten by him
>and been accepted by his readership.
>
divergence with Jim Baen. Aside from an apparently widespread inability
to master usenet quoting conventions and similar arguing techniques [LMB
being the exception] I don't see similarities amongst the Baen authors.
Certainly not political ones.
--
Much apologies but my return path is temporarily broken. Please
use jdni...@home.com instead.
Geoffrey Kidd
His "Y2K Catastrophe" prediction was, as we all know, wildly wrong.
But ad hominem attacks on the MAN, and not the IDEA, are a complete
evasion of debate.
But the basic point of his note remains unanswered, and an answer,
or at least discussion of it, is why I posted the link in the first
place. With the Internet, the human race has, where information
technology is concerned, entered the old science-fiction
realm of the matter duplicator.
As far as I know, the matter duplicator idea originated in a story
called "Pandora's Millions" by George O. Smith, published in
"Astounding Science Fiction" in *1945*. In the story, a group of
engineers came up with a gadget which could scan virtually
any object and transmit the information necessary to create a
duplicate of the object elsewhere. Then somebody got the bright
idea of recording the transmission and creating multiple copies, and
all hell was out for noon as a manufacturing economy, built on
scarcity of materials and resources, collapsed with a very loud THUMP.
And the problem Smith originally raised has now come back to haunt us.
The *original* cost of producing any intellectual work - a software
program, a book, a song, an invention, hasn't dropped in the
slightest. It still takes hours to write a book, debug a program,
whatever. However, once the work is produced, the cost of duplicating
it has dropped like a paralyzed falcon, and practically everybody with
a computer has a "matter duplicator" (mp3 duplicator, text file
duplicator, whatever.)
And there is NO way to stop the duplication by any means I can think
of that doesn't involve 24/7/365 surveillance of every computer and
its user on the planet and large squads of armed thugs ready to pull
"Elian Gonzalez" raids at a moment's notice. Think of a world which
would make "1984" or life in Stalin's Prison Camp Nation look like
paradise.
Encryption isn't the answer either. Sooner or later the information
has to be displayed to the human being reading/listening to it, and at
that point, it can be captured, cleaned, and clearcopied and it's
loose again. Even the notorious DMCA, with its thoroughly
unconstitutional "anticircumvention" restrictions on freedom of speech
doesn't change this.
So: solutions anyone?
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:07:05 -0700, Geoffrey Kidd
<sehlat...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Check out:
>
>http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north14.html
>
Mlindholm
observed:
>Why should a writer *need* a publisher? One of the functions of the internet
>will be to reduce middlemen.
>
>E.g. Stephen King.
>
Hm. Well, why do people need writers to tell them stories? Why can't you do
that for yourself?
That seems like a flippant reply, but what I am getting at is that I am a much
better story-maker than I am an e-publisher. This is true for most writers. My
time is better employed in writing new stories than it would be in tending an
e-book site. I expect that ebooks will simply create a new group of middlemen.
And that's not bad, it provides jobs, and it means the work gets done by those
who do it best.
Now, in the quote above, perhaps you were only speaking of 'book' publishers.
If that is so, well, I think there will always exist a market for books, and
I'm not going to set up a bindery in my basement. I don't think e-books will
completely replace paper books, anymore than tv replaced movies, or movies
replaced theater-plays, or that any of those replaced books. E-books will
become a more common option, and I am vastly in favor of that. But I think it
will become a separate, alternative venue for enjoying the written word.
One more note in that regard: publishers do lots more than just put my words on
pages between covers. There is a whole layer of middlemen, editors and copy
editors, who (quite honestly) act as a layer of quality control. They don't
just correct grammar. They look for failures in logic, for places where the
writer changed the characters hair color or name, for places where the author
contradicts himself. They are important. The talent to be an editor is a
separate and underappreciated talent from being a writer.
So. I am not going to be my own book publisher or my own epublisher. I am
going to continue to write stories, and try to market them to people who want
to make them into books or e-books.
What tweaks my tail is when a roach in a pirate suit says something to the
effect that "Paper books are dying. Furthermore, anything that you write I
have a right to put in e-format and give to the public." It leaves me going,'
hm, why the hell am I sitting at this keyboard for so many hours a day.
According to Cap'n Roach, I am going to be out of business in six months.'
Regarding the Ace/ Tolkien debacle. Years ago, when I was a fair and bonny
lassie . . . okay, so that part is b.s. Anyway, when Tolkien first started to
really hit his stride in the UK, Ace Books, without his knowledge or consent,
put out US editions. Sold lots and lots and lots of them, at a tremendous loss
of royalties to him. It's sort of like a famous horror story of copyright
infringement. (And they had really ugly covers, too!)
Megan
Michael Hargreave Mawson
@cuthis.mindspring.exthisout.com.invalid> writes
>I _love_ B&N. I _love_ Amazon. I'm sorry for the Mom & Pops in the same way
>I'm sorry for buggy makers and the small town clothing shops that used to
>jack their prices up as high as they could and drive in the fancy cars when
>everyone was wandering around in ragged overalls.
>But the issue is the same. Small bookstores invariably catered to their
>favored clientele and unless you were someone who shared the taste of the
>owner it was "take it or nothing." This was not good marketing. And (along
>with bulk sales) it killed them.
>
I went into my small local bookshop (the one where I have been buying
books for the last 30 years) a few weeks ago, and found 14 SF books on
the shelves. Over the past few years they have been gradually reducing
their stock-levels of SF, but this was ridiculous. "Where's the rest
of your Science Fiction?" I asked. "That's it," I was told. I do my
shopping at Waterstones now - 40 shelves of SF, large discounts on new
hardbacks, space to walk around...
ATB
--
Mike
"His wish was to become a historian - not to dig out facts and store
them in himself... but to understand them, call the dead back to life
and let them speak through him to their descendants. She sometimes
wondered who would pay for it and who would heed."
- from "Harvest of Stars" by Poul Anderson.
Louann Miller
> Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.net> wrote:
>> Pat Holt (Holt Uncensored) is about to start charging for her
>> column/website, and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms already.
>
>If she charges, as host and publisher, do contributers (such
>as yourself) get paid in turn?
My contributions will end when she starts charging. But I don't expect
so. Newspapers, after all, regularly publish letters to the editor
(which is essentially what she's doing) without paying the
letter-writers.
(Brief episode of staring into space, contemplating the kinds of kooks
who write letters to daily newspapers and the increased volume of
letters that would result if there was money in doing it. Shudder.)
Holt's output in the time I've read it has been part news stories
(bookstores, large and online, perifidy of; bookstores, small,
grandeur and beauty of; book-industry corporations, evilness of) and
part opinion column with the occasional book review thrown in. I don't
think any single letter in her letters column has been over 400 words,
which is not unreasonable.
Louann
John McMullen
j...@aracnet.com (Joyce Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
> On 15 Sep 2000 10:52:07 -0600, Jonathan W Hendry
> <jhe...@ux1.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >I've thought for a while that the credit card issuers should
> >try providing customers with a separate linked account number
> >with a $100 or $200 limit, for use online.
>
>
> PayPal. Works fine.
Alas, when I checked out PayPal a couple of months ago, I
discovered it only works in the United States.
Where I am not.
I see they plan to expand it, at which point it might become a useful
option for the non-USians.
John
John
Anncrispin
idea who you are.
If you -want- to be a pirate, you have the right last name, though!
<ironic g>
-Ann C. Crispin
Geoffrey Kidd
science-fiction bookstores (Other Change of Hobbit and Dark Carnival
in Berkeley) and the rest of my books from either Amazon or the
occasional pilgrimage to Computer Literacy). My reasoning is simple,
I *WANT* these stores to survive and they have always treated me
like a valued friend, and not a resource to be exploited.
The local Barnes and Noble, OTOH, has never done anything for me but
"push paper" and flame out on special orders where Amazon has come
through with flying colors. Specialty small bookstores *can* survive,
but the mechanism is simple: serve the customers like people and meet
their special needs better than the chains.
As an example, yesterday, on a recommendation, I picked up Steven
Piziks' "In the Company of Mind" and "Corporate Mentality" from Dark
Carnival. Just *try* and find a book more than six months to a year
after its publication date even in B&N or Borders. Same thing
happened when the publication of books 3&4 of Eric Flint's
"Belisarius" series came out. I was able to find "Oblique Approach"
and "In the Heart of Darkness" at Other Change of Hobbit.
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 12:29:49 -0400, "John Ringo"
<john...@cuthis.mindspring.exthisout.com.invalid> wrote:
[snip]
>But the issue is the same. Small bookstores invariably catered to their
>favored clientele and unless you were someone who shared the taste of the
>owner it was "take it or nothing." This was not good marketing. And (along
>with bulk sales) it killed them.
>
>
>
>
>John
Alan Barclay
Laura Higley <La...@nitelinks.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>> Considering that the ways I know about that you could pay for it
>> are (a) give them your credit card number and
>
>Lots of people who are uncomfortable giving their credit
>card number to a bank via the web have no problem giving
>their credit card to a sixteen year-old in a gas station.
For me the difference is that the 16 year old can rip off a few
numbers, but a website can give out a few hundred thousand
numbers, and with much less likelyhood of being traced.
I'd like to say that websites are always programmed in a way which
would protect the data, however this goes against both my personal
experience, and the industry news I've read. A few weeks ago
one of the largest on-line banks in the UK had to shut down
for a day after they had a security hole exposed.
Actually, one of the major reasons I dislike ordering over websites
isn't even crime, it's cockups. Orders being misplaced, double charging,
and strange error messages are all far too common.
Geoffrey Kidd
expenses, particularly since these days, if it isn't in a
webscription, I don't have the *time* to read it, since I've grown to
hate hauling paper around.
As to finding new readers: My own experience may be instructive:
I discovered Eric Flint by reading my WS copy of "1632," and then
promptly went out and bought everything *else* of his that I could
find. In fact, with the exceptions of "Oblique Approach" and "In the
Heart of Darkness", I have everything as etext he seems to have
published in that form, and I have everything of his that's been
published in paperback. Period. I would *never* have discovered Flint
but for webscriptions. And *this* month, "Rats, Bats, and Vats"
prompted me to go and get Dave Freer's "The Forlorn". In fact, thanks
to the convenience, I'm reading more SF now than I had in years,
simply because I can haul ecopies around in my palm (and quietly read
them during boring meetings! :) )
I've also asked Baen a few times to do the "backlist" as etexts, but I
understand the costs may be prohibitive, particularly if the originals
aren't available as electronic manuscripts in the first place. I
simply didn't *believe* the amount of work involved in scanning and
proofing books until I started doing some volunteer work for
Gutenberg. Still, I can dream...
Anderson , Bujold, Campbell, Chalker, Dalmas, Dickson, Flint
(Belisarius 1&2), Hogan, Heinlein, Niven, Pournelle, Smith(E.E.,
George O. , L. Neil), Stirling, Vinge, Weber... all in HTML etext and
stuffable into my Palm with a few keystrokes, *and* "paperbackups" in
case of power failure or file corruption... (long, deep, heartfelt
sigh)
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 11:37:08 -0400, "John Ringo"
<john...@cuthis.mindspring.exthisout.com.invalid> wrote:
>By the way, Jim's take on WS is that currently "it makes its nut." He isn't
>raking in the dough and neither are the authors on _it_. OTOH, you wouldn't
>BELIEVE the number of new readers it's dragging in just by its existence.
>Many of whom don't even get the WS, they just like the "approach." Based on
>actual sales over projected, from what I have gleaned, it has to have
>seriously kicked sales for all the authors. And that is without a single
>major media source even noticing it.
><Sigh>
>
>As to backlist; until there is a _serious_ increase in subscribers it just
>wouldn't be worth the expense. And there _are_ LARGE expenses, equivalent to
>redoing the book, to bringing out backlist that is not already in electronic
>format.
>
>
>
>John
Geoffrey Kidd
name, unless you believe the "chosen assignment" theory of
reincarnation, I didn't pick it.
phil hunt
>
>I'm not sure how creative people are going to be paid for their work
>10 years from now (I hope a method is found so they _are_ paid;
Some possibilities: a scheme like Public Lending Right, an online
payment system like Street Performer Protocol or the honour-based
varient that Stephen King uses.
> the
>good stuff is rare enough as it is) but I feel pretty safe in
>predicting that Mr. North will contribute nothing constructive to the
>dialog.
Whatever he predicts, expect the opposite to happen
--
*****[ Phil Hunt ]*****
"An unforseen issue has arisen with your computer. Don't worry your silly
little head about what has gone wrong; here's a pretty animation of a
paperclip to look at instead."
-- Windows2007 error message
Jonathan W Hendry
> So: solutions anyone?
Ethics.
A re-examination of the need for New Stuff Now, at any cost.
Questioning of materialism.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> As an example, yesterday, on a recommendation, I picked up Steven
> Piziks' "In the Company of Mind" and "Corporate Mentality" from Dark
> Carnival.
Let me know what you make of them, I'm curious. I just finished
translating ITCOM, and I'm thinking of getting CM for myself - I'd like
to know you opinion.
--
Cut out the attention signal in my address to mail me
Togliete l'avvertimento nel mio indirizzo per scrivermi
Bill Snyder
>Regarding the Ace/ Tolkien debacle. Years ago, when I was a fair and bonny
>lassie . . . okay, so that part is b.s. Anyway, when Tolkien first started to
>really hit his stride in the UK, Ace Books, without his knowledge or consent,
>put out US editions. Sold lots and lots and lots of them, at a tremendous loss
>of royalties to him. It's sort of like a famous horror story of copyright
>infringement. (And they had really ugly covers, too!)
>
And of course, the "courtesy to living authors" line is JRRT's,
appearing at the front of the later authorized edition.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
Geoffrey Kidd
have done all of the below for over two thousand years, and you may
note that the topic of the conversation is still "What is property and
how do you enforce rights to it?"
On 15 Sep 2000 16:55:59 -0600, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhe...@ux1.depaul.edu> hacked up a hairball and spake thusly:
George D. Phillies
> "Laura Higley" <La...@onyxcat.net> wrote in message
> snip
> > Lots of people who are uncomfortable giving their credit
> > card number to a bank via the web have no problem giving
> > their credit card to a sixteen year-old in a gas station.
And Third Millenium adds PayPal, an electronic cash transfer scheme.
George
read early chapters of my book for free at http://www.wpi.edu/~phillies
full books at http://3mpub.com
George D. Phillies
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000, John Ringo wrote:
> In support of the above and fully aware that I am about to spout
> heresy again...
>
> I have never lived in a town that had a bookseller that supported _me_
> before my first Barnes and Noble. I lived in Atlanta and had access to
> Oxford books which at the time was the biggest darn bookstore I'd ever seen.
SNIP
> But the issue is the same. Small bookstores invariably catered to their
> favored clientele and unless you were someone who shared the taste of the
> owner it was "take it or nothing." This was not good marketing. And (along
> with bulk sales) it killed them.
And if you come North to some towns in Massachusetts, you can still find
bookstores that cater to particular tastes, and particular political
implications. In Northampton, a fine place to visit, there are bunches of
them. And an SF book/game/mystery store. Curiously, while the other
bookstores seem static, the SF outlet just doubled and then some its
floorspace.
But someday even in these small towns and rural areas instant print
publishing will make vast number of books available to every American, no
matter how much some stores try to run their readers' minds for them.
(I am, however, reminded of an SF/comic outlet in a not I shall not name
that declines to carry Baen, Del Rey, or Tor in favor of Ace and Roc and
successors.)
The epublishing effort may even revive the ability to sell shortstories
via creating a market.
George,
who epublished novel and short story collection through Third
Millenium, http://3mpub.com
Richard Horton
On 15 Sep 2000 14:39:27 GMT, anncr...@aol.com (Anncrispin) wrote:
>Your arguments are cogent and interesting. But I'm afraid we can't all be Baen
>authors. (That especially applies to me. My politics and Mr. Baen's are 180
>degrees apart. <G>)
I wonder how close Baen's politics and Eric Flint's are? Or Elizabeth
Moon's? Or Lois McMaster Bujold's? I think you implicitly do Baen a
disservice with this statement.
The books you want to write may be 180 degrees apart from the books he
wants to read/publish (though I STRONGLY doubt that, unless your name
is James Joyce), but I don't think the politics is that big an issue.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Jonathan W Hendry
> That's not a solution. It's not even that good a suggestion. People
> have done all of the below for over two thousand years, and you may
> note that the topic of the conversation is still "What is property and
> how do you enforce rights to it?"
No, the question is, should you respect the rights of others even
if it's slightly inconvenient for you?
Ethically, yes, you should.
Jonathan W Hendry
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:11:52 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>>The local megawholesale outlet, Costco/Price Club, recently built
>>itself new quarters and added among other things a gas station.
>>So the next time we went there Hal drove into it, cash in hand,
>>and was told they only took credit cards, and drove right out
>>again.
> Assuming that you are talking about a business in the USA, doesn't
> the statement "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and
> private" on US currency mean that a US company that refuses to accept
> US currency is in violation of Federal law?
Does that count if you're not allowed to incur the debt? (If you
can't *pump* the gas, the debt doesn't exist.)
Terry Austin
>I'm not sure how creative people are going to be paid for their work
>10 years from now (I hope a method is found so they _are_ paid; the
>good stuff is rare enough as it is) but I feel pretty safe in
>predicting that Mr. North will contribute nothing constructive to the
>dialog.
>
Ask Stephen King.
Terry Austin
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:11:52 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>The local megawholesale outlet, Costco/Price Club, recently built
>>itself new quarters and added among other things a gas station.
>>So the next time we went there Hal drove into it, cash in hand,
>>and was told they only took credit cards, and drove right out
>>again.
>
>Assuming that you are talking about a business in the USA, doesn't
>the statement "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and
>private" on US currency mean that a US company that refuses to accept
>US currency is in violation of Federal law?
>
More or less, but with membership stores, it's possible to make giving up
the right to use cash a condition.
I wouldn't want to try to defend such a policy in court, however.
Terry Austin
>In article <ttj5ss48q48l4j945...@4ax.com>,
>John F. Eldredge <eldr...@poboxes.com> wrote:
>>Assuming that you are talking about a business in the USA, doesn't
>>the statement "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and
>>private" on US currency mean that a US company that refuses to accept
>>US currency is in violation of Federal law?
>
>No. It says debts, and it means debts.
>
>Merchants are free to refuse your business for almost any reason,
>including the reason that they don't want to accept cash.
Maybe. I can think of ways to make it awfully painful to defend, though,
especially on that particular issue.
"We only accept credit cards."
"But poor people can't get credit cards."
"We don't want to deal with poor people."
"Ethnic minorities generally are more likely to be poor. Is this about
money, or about skin color?"
The worst part is, I wouldn't want to bet on how far from the truth that is.
(Disclaimer: I know nothing about Costco/Price Club, since I despise the
concept of memberships stores and will not deal with businesses that insist
on violating my person and my privacy to let me out the door. I was speaking
generically.)
Geoffrey Kidd
concert tour instead of *this* one. I once saw an article on "digital
ghost towns" which mentioned about two dozens of websites like that.
Of course, I do consider it somewhat in bad taste to have left the
site up at all after, say, about January 6, 2000. :)
Of course, it's equally poor taste to attack the MAN instead of the
POSITION. As I said, elsewhere in this thread, North is probably a
poor consultant on prophecy, but he HAS raised a valuable issue.
On 16 Sep 2000 01:04:20 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December
Starr) hacked up a hairball and spake thusly:
>In article <39c1...@news.depaul.edu>,
>Jonathan W Hendry <jhe...@ux1.depaul.edu> said:
>
>>> http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north14.html
>>
>> Gary North is a nitwit with amazingly poor critical thinking
>> skills. Does his bloody stupid doom & gloom Y2K site still
>> exist?
>
>You mean this one?
>
> Linkname: Gary North's Y2K Links and Forums
> URL: http://www.garynorth.com/
>
>Not only does it still exist, but it's still predicting chaos and
>calamity on January 1, 2000.
>
>-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Geoffrey Kidd
industry considers people who make custom CDs at home, even of
material they've already paid for, to be unconvicted felons, even
if they only play them for themselves, keep the originals as well, and
don't distribute so much as one copy to anyone else.
OTOH, I still remember the composer who was so grateful for the CD-rip
I made of the vinyl of one of his soundtracks that he asked me to let
him have it long enough to dupe it, since he himself had no copy.
I probably violated copyright doing it, since most musicians aren't
allowed by the RIAA to keep the rights, but just *TELL* me the
composer was wrong to get a copy of his own music.
Ethical issue? Of course. But interpretations of rights differ on
just whose ox is being gored or pocket picked.
On 15 Sep 2000 20:23:02 -0600, Jonathan W Hendry
<jhe...@ux1.depaul.edu> hacked up a hairball and spake thusly:
Geoffrey Kidd
Let us suppose the following scenario: I have a copy of Neal
Stephenson's "The Big U". I leave my house in the care of a friend
for a week while I go on vacation. My friend, looking at my
bookshelves, spots "The Big U" and takes it home and scans it on
his computer while I'm gone. He then restores the book to my shelf
with NO indications of any kind that the book has even been moved.
He even wears gloves so there are no fingerprints or any other
evidence that the book has even been handled.
Now comes the tough question: From whom has the book been stolen
and who has been harmed?
Before you answer, take the following into consideration: Stephenson
has repeatedly, publicly, and loudly proclaimed in several forums and
to anyone who will listen that he will *NEVER* *NEVER* *NEVER* allow
the book to be reprinted under any circumstances. The book is, in
effect, an abandoned building, left to rot in the weather.
So: has the author been harmed or stolen from? Possibly, but *ONLY*
if you accept that "intellectual property" can NOT be abandoned, even
by the owner. It's a curious paradox, too, that, in effect, one can
claim the AUTHOR owns the copy itself, because HE is supposed to
control who can copy it or sell it to another. Technically, *EVERY*
used book store in the country violates laws against re-selling books,
BTW. Nevertheless, were the author to break into my home and steal
the book, *I* could charge HIM with having stolen MY property.
So if the author hasn't been harmed, having said publicly HE won't
allow the book to be republished, has the publisher been harmed?
Hardly. The publisher published the book once, got money for the
copies, and now can not republish the book. The publisher loses
NOTHING.
Finally, have *I* been harmed or stolen from? If the book were
damaged physically, possibly, but I already said the circumstances of
its copying were undetectable. And I have the book back. "My"
property has been restored to me unharmed.
I'm not claiming any of the above as an answer, although if my friend
were to do the above, I'd surely have one less friend if I found out
about it. But I want anybody who reads this post to think about the
issues raised regarding so-called "intellectual property."
I use the word so-called, because EVERY other form of property on the
planet involves something that can NOT be duplicated at the touch of a
button and whose very utility is not intimately involved with sharing
it. Only one person can drive my car. On the other hand, if I tell
my wife a story, *she* knows the story as well as I, and we are both
in possession of our copies. So who owns the story?
See? It gets tricky. Please think about it.
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:07:05 -0700, Geoffrey Kidd
<sehlat...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> hacked up a hairball and spake
thusly:
>Check out:
>
>http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north14.html
>
Patricia Wadley
continue to write despite not getting paid for it.
My dear friend, a woman of intelligence and taste, is of the opinion that copyright
law is dead and that no one will be paying for written materials anymore. We had
this discussion two Saturdays ago over lunch. I told her that writers will not
write if they don't get paid. She said yes they would and then pointed out that I
do not get "paid" for the writing I do. As I am a historian this is true in the
sense that no one sends me a check for my books or articles, but publishing
enhances my employability as an academic.
She also believes that writers write because we have some kind of desire or ego or
whatever to have people read what we write and she sees nothing wrong with us
working a nine or eight hour job, coming home blah blah and then sitting down and
writing a great opus. Regardless, the fact is that most people think writing is
easy [!!!!!!!!!] and that we [especially Stephen King] can sit down and whip these
suckers out in a couple of weeks or less.
She also believes that writers of "good" books are the only ones who will not
object to the death of the copyright because no one buys their books anyway and
actually more people will read their books.
She believes all this because she read it in an online magazine. Therefore it is
the Word.
p
Dorothy J Heydt
Patricia Wadley <mj...@flash.net> wrote:
>Unfortunately for all of us the perception out there is that, as writers, we will
>continue to write despite not getting paid for it.
I wouldn't.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Steve Parker
>Regarding the Ace/ Tolkien debacle. Years ago, when I was a fair and bonny
>lassie . . . okay, so that part is b.s. Anyway, when Tolkien first started to
>really hit his stride in the UK, Ace Books, without his knowledge or consent,
>put out US editions. Sold lots and lots and lots of them, at a tremendous loss
>of royalties to him. It's sort of like a famous horror story of copyright
>infringement. (And they had really ugly covers, too!)
<grumble> They were *great* covers. Jack Gaughan (sp) art. Probably
cost Ace big bucks. Completely wrong for the tone of the story....but
they weren't ugly. (IMHO, of course)
But, regardless of the cover asthetics, I agree, Ace was pretty
swine-ish regarding their theft of Tolkien's work
Steve
--
My Hugo-reviews Page (now featuring SPOILER SPACE!) can be found at
http://www.crosswinds.net/~sparker9/home.html
John F. Eldredge
Hash: SHA1
On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:11:52 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
>The local megawholesale outlet, Costco/Price Club, recently built
>itself new quarters and added among other things a gas station.
>So the next time we went there Hal drove into it, cash in hand,
>and was told they only took credit cards, and drove right out
>again.
Assuming that you are talking about a business in the USA, doesn't
the statement "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and
private" on US currency mean that a US company that refuses to accept
US currency is in violation of Federal law?
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--
John F. Eldredge -- eldr...@poboxes.com
My PGP key is available from:
http://www.netforward.com/poboxes/?eldredge/
--
"There must be, not a balance of power, but a community of power;
not organized rivalries, but an organized common peace." - Woodrow Wilson
Forrest
pirated texts entirely or buy the paper edition eventually, there are
at least two ways to address the problem:
# Subscription publication, in which readers pay in advance for books
not yet printed or even written. The money goes into escrow, and when
the total reaches the amount the author is willing to accept the book
is issued (probably by print-on-demand). It will probably be pirated,
but the writer will have achieved minimum acceptable financial
satisfaction in advance.
# Enhanced value. Consider the people who kept buying new copies of
Pink Floyd records just to get the posters and stickers.
Mark-Jason Dominus
>the statement "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and
>private" on US currency mean that a US company that refuses to accept
>US currency is in violation of Federal law?
No. It says debts, and it means debts.
Alan Barclay
>the statement "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and
>private" on US currency mean that a US company that refuses to accept
>US currency is in violation of Federal law?
No, because until there is a transaction, there is no debt.
William December Starr
Mlindholm
Actually, yes, there is one.
Step 1. Buy e-books. Buy lots of them from legitimate sources. Give them as
gifts. Tell your friends. Show them how the technology works. Popularize
them. Become the market.
Do not purchase them or download them from unauthorized sources any more than
you would buy a hot stereo from a punk on the corner. Eschew it for the same
reasons: you know it's stolen, and there is no guarantee of the quality you are
getting.
Give feedback to the sites who are supplying e-books legitimately. Patronize
the Baen site and others, and let your friends know that they exist. Email
that site and other valid e-publishers to say that you want to be their
customer. Encourage them to acquire a wider stock by telling them what you
would like to buy. If their prices are too high, tell them so. Tell them what
price you would consider fair.
Public demand can do everything from Save the Whales to putting Star Trek back
on TV. It can grease the wheels on e-books.
Step 2. Recognize that while you can talk about it here online, you are
preaching to the choir. We are already converted, we believe in tomorrow,
Hallelujah, Amen, we want e-books to be a reality. The people you have to
reach are the people who are stuck in the paper age. Unfortunately, that means
writing a letter on paper to talk to them. Write to publishers and authors,
asking them when their books will be available as e-books. Wake them up to the
opportunity they are missing. They don't come here and read this board. They
don't know what you want unless you tell them.
And please recognize that authors are not the enemy in this. We are not
squatting on our books, saying 'e-book? Not with my words!' Quite a number of
us are pushing on the other side of this barrier. We'd like to be out there in
e-format. SFWA as an organization has been encouraging its members for YEARS
not to sign contracts that give away the e-rights free along with the book
rights. The reason? Most of the book publishers don't know what to do with
them, frankly. Face it, it's like asking someone with a hot dog factory to
start making pizza. Some of the ingredients might be the same, but they just
aren't set up for it. They don't know there's a market for pizza until the
public starts demanding it.
Megan
Louann Miller
<tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
(an imagined dialog about the motives for a gas station taking no
cash)
>"We only accept credit cards."
>
>"But poor people can't get credit cards."
>
>"We don't want to deal with poor people."
>
>"Ethnic minorities generally are more likely to be poor. Is this about
>money, or about skin color?"
Actually, it's quite likely to be about reducing theft by employees,
and about reducing the danger _to_ employees of armed theft by others.
No point in shooting or bludgeoning a clerk to steal a lot of little
useless (to you) slips of paper. Also takes the risk of 'drive-off'
thefts of gas way down.
We'd need more context to validate this. Is this a neighborhood where
the rule was previously "pay before you pump"? Are there a lot of
other visible security precautions, like the ten-pack cases of
cigarettes (almost as good a theft item as cash) being locked up?
I've never seen a store like this, although I've seen convenience/gas
stores that take ONLY cash. (ATMs provided inside, but you still must
hand the cash to the cashier.) I live in Texas, where lottery tickets
(cash purchase only) are a huge profit center for c-stores, so not
likely to see one of the cited type of store near me.
Louann
Jerry Brown
<eldr...@poboxes.com> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:11:52 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>The local megawholesale outlet, Costco/Price Club, recently built
>>itself new quarters and added among other things a gas station.
>>So the next time we went there Hal drove into it, cash in hand,
>>and was told they only took credit cards, and drove right out
>>again.
>
>Assuming that you are talking about a business in the USA, doesn't
>the statement "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and
>private" on US currency mean that a US company that refuses to accept
>US currency is in violation of Federal law?
ObSF: Have Space Suit, Will Travel: IIRC, Kip's father paid his taxes
in the form of a huge sack of dollar bills, and would quote the above
whenever the authorities complained. By now, I would guess that enough
people have tried this sort of thing for there to be an
'admininstration charge' added as a discouragement.
Jerry Brown
--
A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
Laura Higley
>
> And Third Millenium adds PayPal, an electronic cash transfer scheme.
Only for USA credit card holders. The Visa smart cards that
will pay bills as well as (literally) open doors are all
well and good, as long as people aren't afraid to use them,
and providing they are globalized.
--
Laura Higley http://www.nitelinks.com
Welcome to the world of electronic books!
John Boston
> On 15 Sep 2000 19:54:29 GMT, mlin...@aol.com (Mlindholm) wrote:
>
> >Regarding the Ace/ Tolkien debacle. Years ago, when I was a fair and bonny
> >lassie . . . okay, so that part is b.s. Anyway, when Tolkien first started to
> >really hit his stride in the UK, Ace Books, without his knowledge or consent,
> >put out US editions. Sold lots and lots and lots of them, at a tremendous loss
> >of royalties to him. It's sort of like a famous horror story of copyright
> >infringement. (And they had really ugly covers, too!)
>
> <grumble> They were *great* covers. Jack Gaughan (sp) art. Probably
> cost Ace big bucks. Completely wrong for the tone of the story....but
> they weren't ugly. (IMHO, of course)
>
> But, regardless of the cover asthetics, I agree, Ace was pretty
> swine-ish regarding their theft of Tolkien's work
I beg leave to differ. In my view Ace was perhaps rude and
vulgar, but they did us all--including Tolkien--a service, according
to my understanding of the facts (which no one disputed the last
time this came up, two or three years ago if memory serves).
Ace did not violate anyone's copyright. Under the law as it
stood at that time, Tolkien's publishers had managed to blow the US
copyright by running afoul of some technicality which I don't remember
clearly enough to explain. As a result the books were _de facto_ in
the public domain. The publishers (Houghton Mifflin) responded to
this situation simply by rebuffing all requests for paperback reprint
rights in the US. As a result, these books, which had garnered a
tremendous underground reputation since their hardcover publication
in the mid-'50s, remained unobtainable into the mid-'60s to anyone
who couldn't afford $5.00 each for the three volumes, which was a
pretty hefty price tag at that time. (This is assuming that Houghton
Mifflin had kept them in print, which I don't actually know.)
Apparently Wollheim at Ace was the first person actually
to figure out the copyright situation, and he went forward and
published the books. At that time I was a high school student
and could never have afforded the hardcovers, and I lived in a
small town where the library didn't have anything so esoteric. So
I was quite grateful to Wollheim and Ace for making it possible
for me to read these wonderful books.
Of course, there ensued a major public furor, which led
to Tolkien's preparing a slightly revised text which became the
Ballantine paperback edition and which gave Tolkien a valid
US copyright. That is the edition where first appeared Tolkien's
statement about "courtesy to living authors." Ace ceased publishing
its edition and later made a payment of royalties to Tolkien, which,
as I understand it, they had no legal obligation to do. And,
of course, Tolkien then realized large sums in royalties from the
Ballantine paperbacks that he would never have seen were it not
for the events set in motion by Ace.
So I think it is unwarranted to accuse Ace of "theft." As
a matter of law, what they took didn't belong to anyone. It would
have displayed more "courtesy to living authors" had Wollheim
contacted Tolkien, told him that his US publishers were serving
him badly, and offered him royalties from the beginning. But as
between doing what Ace did, and leaving the books unreprinted,
I'm glad they published the books, and their actions ultimately
benefited the author much more than leaving the books unreprinted
would have.
John Boston
Anne M. Marble
Geoffrey Kidd <sehlatSPAMMERS...@uclink4.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> So: solutions anyone?
>
> Actually, yes, there is one.
> Step 1. Buy e-books. Buy lots of them from legitimate sources. Give
them as
> gifts. Tell your friends. Show them how the technology works.
Popularize
> them. Become the market.
Oooh, good idea. I actually ended up buying a PalmPilot because a local
radio talk show host mentioned something about reading Grisham on his Palm.
I knew about original e-books and Stephen King and all that, but I hadn't
realized there were that many authors were available in e-book format. So
first I looked into e-book readers, and then I ended up getting a Palm. (I
was about to get paid for an article, so I decided to splurge.) I ended up
sending the guy an e-mail thanking him for the guidance. :->
I like the idea of giving e-books as gifts. I know people with Palms and
Visors. It would be so fun to give them gift certificates to Webscriptions
or Peanutpress.
> Do not purchase them or download them from unauthorized sources any more
than
> you would buy a hot stereo from a punk on the corner. Eschew it for the
same
> reasons: you know it's stolen, and there is no guarantee of the quality
you are
> getting.
>
> Give feedback to the sites who are supplying e-books legitimately.
Patronize
> the Baen site and others, and let your friends know that they exist.
Email
> that site and other valid e-publishers to say that you want to be their
> customer. Encourage them to acquire a wider stock by telling them what
you
> would like to buy. If their prices are too high, tell them so. Tell
them what
> price you would consider fair.
I've done something like that with some of the original e-book sites. Some
of them need to be hit with a clue-by-four. One site had a provision that
you could store the book on only one device. They even wanted users to
register their hardware identifiers. On top of that, they provided the book
s only in PDF format. The prices also varied -- from cheap to what?!? They
did one or three other things wrong as well. They got a long e-mail.
Anyway, I won't be buying any more e-books for a while. I have two months
worth of Baen e-books to read now. Phew! Well, at least I can save some of
them for later. (I just wish the books had titles in the ZIP file so I
could know ahead of time which ones I was downloading.)
Robert Shaw
"Geoffrey Kidd" wrote in message :
>
> Let us suppose the following scenario: I have a copy of Neal
> Stephenson's "The Big U". I leave my house in the care of a friend
> for a week while I go on vacation. My friend, looking at my
> bookshelves, spots "The Big U" and takes it home and scans it on
> his computer while I'm gone. He then restores the book to my shelf
> with NO indications of any kind that the book has even been moved.
> He even wears gloves so there are no fingerprints or any other
> evidence that the book has even been handled.
>
> Now comes the tough question: From whom has the book been stolen
> and who has been harmed?
>
> Before you answer, take the following into consideration: Stephenson
> has repeatedly, publicly, and loudly proclaimed in several forums and
> to anyone who will listen that he will *NEVER* *NEVER* *NEVER* allow
> the book to be reprinted under any circumstances. The book is, in
> effect, an abandoned building, left to rot in the weather.
>
> So: has the author been harmed or stolen from?
Yes.
Stephenson thinks reading 'the big U' would lower peoples
opinion of his writing, reducing his sales, and costing money,
thus harming him.
Every author has a right to protect their reputation, especially
since it is their livelihood.
--
'It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points' - Pratchett
Robert Shaw
Alan Barclay
John Boston <jbo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Ace did not violate anyone's copyright. Under the law as it
>stood at that time, Tolkien's publishers had managed to blow the US
>copyright by running afoul of some technicality which I don't remember
>clearly enough to explain. As a result the books were _de facto_ in
>the public domain. The publishers (Houghton Mifflin) responded to
The US copyright laws were very strange for a long time. If you published
something without registering it first, then it would be public
domain. This applied even if the publisher wasn't the real copyright
owner. Exactly what constitued 'publishing' was a major factor in many
copyright lawsuits.
As I recall, the British edition was taken to the US by a fan, who
then distributed some copies of the book, which was considered
publishing.
This was one of the things fixed by the 1976 copyright act. Since
that came into force, anything created is born copyright.
Steve Parker
wrote:
>Steve Parker wrote:
>
>> On 15 Sep 2000 19:54:29 GMT, mlin...@aol.com (Mlindholm) wrote:
>>
>> >Regarding the Ace/ Tolkien debacle. Years ago, when I was a fair and bonny
>> >lassie . . . okay, so that part is b.s. Anyway, when Tolkien first started to
>> >really hit his stride in the UK, Ace Books, without his knowledge or consent,
>> >put out US editions. Sold lots and lots and lots of them, at a tremendous loss
>> >of royalties to him. It's sort of like a famous horror story of copyright
>> >infringement. (And they had really ugly covers, too!)
>>
>> <grumble> They were *great* covers. Jack Gaughan (sp) art. Probably
>> cost Ace big bucks. Completely wrong for the tone of the story....but
>> they weren't ugly. (IMHO, of course)
>>
>> But, regardless of the cover asthetics, I agree, Ace was pretty
>> swine-ish regarding their theft of Tolkien's work
>
> I beg leave to differ. In my view Ace was perhaps rude and
>vulgar, but they did us all--including Tolkien--a service, according
>to my understanding of the facts (which no one disputed the last
>time this came up, two or three years ago if memory serves).
>
> Ace did not violate anyone's copyright. Under the law as it
>stood at that time,
<snip explanation>
> So I think it is unwarranted to accuse Ace of "theft." As
>a matter of law, what they took didn't belong to anyone. It would
>have displayed more "courtesy to living authors" had Wollheim
>contacted Tolkien, told him that his US publishers were serving
>him badly, and offered him royalties from the beginning. But as
>between doing what Ace did, and leaving the books unreprinted,
>I'm glad they published the books, and their actions ultimately
>benefited the author much more than leaving the books unreprinted
>would have.
Huh. I never knew any of that. I'd only heard the "short version"
(read: inaccurate version) that Wollheim had found a loophole in
British/US copyright laws and published a "pirate" edition.
Let me retract my use of the word "theft".
I'll stand by my comments about the cover art, though. : )
J.B. Moreno
wrote:
Undeliverable addresses should end in the top level domain ".invalid".
> Look, people. I'm not holding North up as an example of a prophet.
> His "Y2K Catastrophe" prediction was, as we all know, wildly wrong.
> But ad hominem attacks on the MAN, and not the IDEA, are a complete
> evasion of debate.
Not really, if the man is a loon then it's almost certainly a complete
waste of time to debate his ideas.
--
JBM
"Moebius strippers only show you their back side." -- Unknown
Marilee J. Layman
>"George D. Phillies" wrote:
>
>>
>> And Third Millenium adds PayPal, an electronic cash transfer scheme.
>
>Only for USA credit card holders. The Visa smart cards that
>will pay bills as well as (literally) open doors are all
>well and good, as long as people aren't afraid to use them,
>and providing they are globalized.
According to PayPal, they'll soon accept credit cards from 25 other
countries. They didn't list those countries.
--
Marilee J. Layman The Other*Worlds*Cafe
HOSTE...@aol.com A Science Fiction Discussion Group.
AOL Keyword: OWC http://www.webmoose.com/owc
Michael Hargreave Mawson
<La...@onyxcat.net> writes
>"George D. Phillies" wrote:
>
>>
>> And Third Millenium adds PayPal, an electronic cash transfer scheme.
>
>Only for USA credit card holders.
I've seen this statement a couple of times recently, and it isn't true.
I am a UK resident who has never resided in the US, and who has used a
Bank of Scotland Mastercard to pay an eBay vendor (based in the US) via
PayPal. What a non-USan cannot do is be *paid* via PayPal.
ATB
--
Mike
"His wish was to become a historian - not to dig out facts and store
them in himself... but to understand them, call the dead back to life
and let them speak through him to their descendants. She sometimes
wondered who would pay for it and who would heed."
- from "Harvest of Stars" by Poul Anderson.
Terry Austin
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 21:05:44 -0700, Terry Austin
><tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
>
>(an imagined dialog about the motives for a gas station taking no
>cash)
>
>>"We only accept credit cards."
>>
>>"But poor people can't get credit cards."
>>
>>"We don't want to deal with poor people."
>>
>>"Ethnic minorities generally are more likely to be poor. Is this about
>>money, or about skin color?"
>
>Actually, it's quite likely to be about reducing theft by employees,
>and about reducing the danger _to_ employees of armed theft by others.
Both of which are *far* better done in other ways. I've worked in retail my
whole life, mostly at the management level. It's possible that's their
thinking. If so, they're morons.
>No point in shooting or bludgeoning a clerk to steal a lot of little
>useless (to you) slips of paper.
You don't know much about credit card fraud, do you? Free hint: Those
"useless" slips of paper are worth more than a month's worth of cash sales
to anyone with half a clue.
>Also takes the risk of 'drive-off'
>thefts of gas way down.
Below the level of risk with "pay before you pump"? Heh. Right.
>
>We'd need more context to validate this. Is this a neighborhood where
>the rule was previously "pay before you pump"? Are there a lot of
>other visible security precautions, like the ten-pack cases of
>cigarettes (almost as good a theft item as cash) being locked up?
This is Costco/Price Club. They search your person before allowing you to
leave the store. Really. And you agree to let them do it, when you sign up.
>
>I've never seen a store like this, although I've seen convenience/gas
>stores that take ONLY cash. (ATMs provided inside, but you still must
>hand the cash to the cashier.) I live in Texas, where lottery tickets
>(cash purchase only) are a huge profit center for c-stores, so not
>likely to see one of the cited type of store near me.
>
There's a lot of really stupid stores out there. I don't shop at them.
Terry Austin
>On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 01:57:51 GMT, John F. Eldredge
><eldr...@poboxes.com> wrote:
>
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>Hash: SHA1
>>
>>On Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:11:52 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>The local megawholesale outlet, Costco/Price Club, recently built
>>>itself new quarters and added among other things a gas station.
>>>So the next time we went there Hal drove into it, cash in hand,
>>>and was told they only took credit cards, and drove right out
>>>again.
>>
>>Assuming that you are talking about a business in the USA, doesn't
>>the statement "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and
>>private" on US currency mean that a US company that refuses to accept
>>US currency is in violation of Federal law?
>
>ObSF: Have Space Suit, Will Travel: IIRC, Kip's father paid his taxes
>in the form of a huge sack of dollar bills, and would quote the above
>whenever the authorities complained. By now, I would guess that enough
>people have tried this sort of thing for there to be an
>'admininstration charge' added as a discouragement.
>
If there is, it's illegal. Paying in cash is the classic way of annoying the
hell out of someone. The discouragement is that it is difficult to *get*
several thousand bucks in cash. Which is a way of annoying the hell out of
your bank, too.
Terry Austin
>So? Sarah Brightman's website is still promoting *last* year's
>concert tour instead of *this* one. I once saw an article on "digital
>ghost towns" which mentioned about two dozens of websites like that.
>
>Of course, I do consider it somewhat in bad taste to have left the
>site up at all after, say, about January 6, 2000. :)
>
>Of course, it's equally poor taste to attack the MAN instead of the
>POSITION. As I said, elsewhere in this thread, North is probably a
>poor consultant on prophecy, but he HAS raised a valuable issue.
You need to do some research on Mr. North. Attacking the man is the *only*
issue, because his "issues" are very personal. North is a Christian
Reconstructionist. They believe that Christ won't return until *after* all
of humanity has lived under a theocracy for a thousand years (more or less).
Mr. North is considered a whacko by Christian Reconstructionists at large,
and believe that it is his personal responsibility, appointed by God, to
bring that theocracy about. With him in charge, naturally.
His Y2K predictions weren't what he *thought* would happen, they were what
he *wanted* to happen, and what he intended to *make* happen.
>
>On 16 Sep 2000 01:04:20 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December
>Starr) hacked up a hairball and spake thusly:
Terry Austin
>Geoffrey Kidd <sehlatSPAMMERS...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
>wrote:
>
>Undeliverable addresses should end in the top level domain ".invalid".
Thus making it meaningless to use a spamblocker.
>
>> Look, people. I'm not holding North up as an example of a prophet.
>> His "Y2K Catastrophe" prediction was, as we all know, wildly wrong.
>> But ad hominem attacks on the MAN, and not the IDEA, are a complete
>> evasion of debate.
>
>Not really, if the man is a loon then it's almost certainly a complete
>waste of time to debate his ideas.
He's a fruitball.
Maureen O'Brien
http://www.conknet.com/~b_thurston/entropy/issues/12.html
Very informative.
Re: ugly cover art on the Ace edition of Tolkien:
The Ace covers by Jack Gaughan (which can be seen on some Tolkien fan
sites) are lovely. They look rather like they belong on an Andre Norton
book, but this is not a problem.
The first Ballantine covers, OTOH, are butt-ugly. My dad owns that
edition and I read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings in that format
first. They scared me as a kid, they were so ugly. They kept me from
reading LOTR for a couple years after I finished The Hobbit, they were
so ugly. They look like the artist was on a very bad trip (with or
without the benefit of drugs), and they make the Shire look like a
place one visits in nightmare. They are, in short, Ugly with a capital
Ug. I am glad to have learned the name of the artist from this page,
so that I have someone to blame for my childhood distress.
Joe "Nuke Me Xemu" Foster
> pl...@newsreaders.com (J.B. Moreno) wrote:
> >Geoffrey Kidd <sehlatSPAMMERS...@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
> >wrote:
> >
> >Undeliverable addresses should end in the top level domain ".invalid".
> Thus making it meaningless to use a spamblocker.
Not if you use both the "SPAMMERSGOTOHELLINAGONY" /and/ the .invalid,
which in this case just alerts people's newsreaders and email programs
that the address needs some human attention to be usable. By the way,
lots of spamware will remove capital letters from a captured address.
--
Joe Foster <mailto:jfo...@ricochet.net> Space Cooties! <http://www.xenu.net/>
WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above They're coming to
because my cats have apparently learned to type. take me away, ha ha!
Joe "Nuke Me Xemu" Foster
> Stephenson thinks reading 'the big U' would lower peoples
> opinion of his writing, reducing his sales, and costing money,
> thus harming him.
Why does he think so little of us? I'm reminded of some of Asimov's old
juveniles, some of which depended on theories later shown to be false.
When they were reprinted, Asimov simply included a foreword explaining
the "bloopers".
> Every author has a right to protect their reputation, especially
> since it is their livelihood.
I'd probably like Stephenson even better if I could see for myself how
he's grown as a person and/or as a writer over time. It's authors who
write the same way with the same point of view for years on end on whom
I want to conduct a Turing test.
Joe "Nuke Me Xemu" Foster
> In article <96912627...@elaine.furryape.com>, Alan Barclay
> <gor...@elaine.furryape.com> writes
> >The US copyright laws were very strange for a long time. If you published
> >something without registering it first, then it would be public
> >domain. This applied even if the publisher wasn't the real copyright
> >owner. Exactly what constitued 'publishing' was a major factor in many
> >copyright lawsuits.
> Bloody hell, how the hell did anyone come up with something so
> utterly asinine? That is, I think, just about the stupidest possible way
> of designing a copyright law.
Actually, that view of copyright may have helped the US bootstrap itself
in its early days. Whether that view was at all appropriate two centuries
later is something completely different.
J.B. Moreno
> pl...@newsreaders.com (J.B. Moreno) wrote:
-snip Kidds undeliverable address-
> >Undeliverable addresses should end in the top level domain ".invalid".
>
> Thus making it meaningless to use a spamblocker.
No it doesn't. <nos...@fake.invalid> is less open to spam than
<userN...@isp.com>.