Are "Book of the New Sun" and "Book of the Long Sun" connected?
Geoff Alex Cohen
Brendon J Wahlberg (bwah...@pitt.edu) wrote:
: I'm posting here for the first time. Are there any readers of Gene Wolfe's
: Book of the New Sun *and* Book of the Long Sun? As Long Sun was unfolding,
: I read publicity material stating that it connected to the New Sun series
: concerning Severian. But I have been unable to see any connection, and I am
: just about finished with Exodus from the Long Sun.
:
: I think these are both marvelous series, and they do not need to connect,
: but does anyone know if they do?
Yes, they do, in a (so far) fairly minor way.
There is an important but minor character in common. You'll have to
read carefully to discover who it is - the name has changed.
"Book of the Short Sun", the sequel series to "Long Sun" is rumored
to tie the three series together much more tightly. Major characters
from "New Sun" may appear.
Geoff
Brendon J Wahlberg
In article <5up6co$lkq$2...@news.duke.edu>,
Geoff Alex Cohen <g...@cs.duke.edu> wrote:
(in response to this question)
>: I think these are both marvelous series, and they do not need to connect,
>: but does anyone know if they do?
>Yes, they do, in a (so far) fairly minor way.
>
>There is an important but minor character in common. You'll have to
>read carefully to discover who it is - the name has changed.
>
>"Book of the Short Sun", the sequel series to "Long Sun" is rumored
>to tie the three series together much more tightly. Major characters
>from "New Sun" may appear.
>
>Geoff
Forgive me for pressing the issue, but could you spell it out, so to speak?
Which character are you referring to?
I'm very glad to hear of a third series! Thanks for this info!
I wonder if you can put the series in chronological order. I find Wolfe to be
a challenging writer, and I'm not even sure, if Long Sun and New Sun are
indeed in the same continuity, of the order in which they take place.
I recall that in New Sun, the sun of Oerth (sp?) was dying, and had become a
red star. Severian the Autarch is able to ask denizens of another world for a
new sun. In Long Sun, a large ship is transporting a crew of humans and
a sun to warm them. For me, it is hard enough to piece together the brilliantly
strange vocabulary and plots of these books...and the larger picture escapes me
at present. Is the long sun the replacement sun for Oerth? Or am I badly
confused as a result of having read New Sun too long ago? Perhaps Long Sun
human cargo populated Oerth.
In short, could anyone who truly understands the "big picture" behind these
works explain your insights?
"No Cut!"
-Brendon Wahlberg
--
Brendon Wahlberg's Star Wars Fan Fiction can be found at
http://home.earthlink.net/~edp1/index.html (non-zipped) or
http://www.fanfiX.com/new/brendon.htm (zipped)
Brad Payne
----- Possible spoilers for Wolfe's Books of the New Sun and Long Sun ------
>>"Book of the Short Sun", the sequel series to "Long Sun" is rumored
>>to tie the three series together much more tightly. Major characters
>>from "New Sun" may appear.
>>
>>Geoff
>
>Forgive me for pressing the issue, but could you spell it out, so to speak?
>Which character are you referring to?
>I'm very glad to hear of a third series! Thanks for this info!
>I wonder if you can put the series in chronological order. I find Wolfe to be
>a challenging writer, and I'm not even sure, if Long Sun and New Sun are
>indeed in the same continuity, of the order in which they take place.
Some connections I see between the series. All from memory, which is
not, alas, up to Severian standards.
1) The Outsider who enlightens and intermittently aids Silk is Severian
in his divine Conciliator aspect. At one point in the Long Sun books,
Silk describes the Outsider as a man with additional voices, a female
voice over one shoulder and a multitude over the other, presumably
Thecla on one hand and the multitudes he incorporated from the old
Autarch on the other.
2) The builder of the Long Sun Whorl is Typhon I (name is actually
given in _Long Sun_ at one point), a despot on the early (to Severian)
earth. Severian encounters and revives Typhon from a mummified state
in BOTNS. In _Urth of the New Sun_, while travelling back through time
as the Conciliator, Severian encounters Typhon at the height of his
powers. Typhon's time predates Severian's by a considerable span, as
Typhon lived before the time of the autarchs, and the first autarch is
himself consigned to the deep past for Severian. As always with Wolfe,
it's hard to get a specific handle on the time spans involved.
3) Pax, the head god of the Long Sun Whorl, is a computer simulation or
reconstruction of Typhon. Other gods are patterned after members of
Typhon's family. Pax is described as having two heads, a reference to
Typhon's bid for immortality via head grafting.
4) There is supposed to be a tie to a BOTNS sybil (The Cumaean?) but if
I hadn't seen this mentioned in RASFW, I would never have noticed it in
the book.
So for time frame, I would say that Long Sun takes place far in
Severian's past, but with relativistic effects and Wolfe's penchant for
time travel and circular causality, you never know.
Comments? Corrections?
--
Brad Payne UCLA Laboratory of Neuroimaging
pa...@loni.ucla.edu http://www.loni.ucla.edu/~payne/
Kevin J. Maroney
bwah...@pitt.edu (Brendon J Wahlberg) wrote:
>Forgive me for pressing the issue, but could you spell it out, so to speak?
Pee aye ess in BOTLS is actually Tee why pee haitch oh en from BOTNS.
Happy to help. The connection is made explicit in one mention in _Lake
of the Long Sun_, and is blindingly obvious once it's been made.
Kevin Maroney | kmar...@crossover.com
Kitchen Staff Supervisor
The New York Review of Science Fiction
http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html
Rich Horton
On 5 Sep 1997 19:14:59 GMT, pa...@notule.loni.ucla.edu (Brad Payne)
wrote:
SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK OF THE LONG SUN BELOW
>1) The Outsider who enlightens and intermittently aids Silk is Severian
>in his divine Conciliator aspect. At one point in the Long Sun books,
>Silk describes the Outsider as a man with additional voices, a female
>voice over one shoulder and a multitude over the other, presumably
>Thecla on one hand and the multitudes he incorporated from the old
>Autarch on the other.
>
This has been suggested, and is one interpretation, but I prefer to
say that the Outsider is simply the True (Christian) God.
>2) The builder of the Long Sun Whorl is Typhon I (name is actually
>given in _Long Sun_ at one point), a despot on the early (to Severian)
>earth. Severian encounters and revives Typhon from a mummified state
>in BOTNS. In _Urth of the New Sun_, while travelling back through time
>as the Conciliator, Severian encounters Typhon at the height of his
>powers. Typhon's time predates Severian's by a considerable span, as
>Typhon lived before the time of the autarchs, and the first autarch is
>himself consigned to the deep past for Severian. As always with Wolfe,
>it's hard to get a specific handle on the time spans involved.
>
>3) Pax, the head god of the Long Sun Whorl, is a computer simulation or
>reconstruction of Typhon. Other gods are patterned after members of
>Typhon's family. Pax is described as having two heads, a reference to
>Typhon's bid for immortality via head grafting.
>
This is correct, except it's Pas.
>So for time frame, I would say that Long Sun takes place far in
>Severian's past, but with relativistic effects and Wolfe's penchant for
>time travel and circular causality, you never know.
Somewhere it is said that the Whorl has been traveling for 300 years,
which seems =way= too short. But there is also a suggestion that a
decimal point has been misplaced, which would make the travel time a
more reasonable 3000 years. I can't recall how far in Severian's past
Typhon reigned.
There are also suggestive similarities between the Blue/Green system
which the Whorl has reached, and the two planet system in _The Fifth
Head of Cerberus_, but these seem to be only similarities, and not an
actual tie.
I would suggest that interested people join the Whorl and Urth mailing
lists. I can't recall the subscription information right now, but
there is a web page with archives of past posts (including extensive
discussion of the links between the two series) and also subscription
info. An Alta Vista search ought to find it.
Rich Horton
Dave Conrad
Brendon J Wahlberg wrote:
> I think these are both marvelous series, and they do not need to connect,
> but does anyone know if they do?
> -Brendon Wahlberg
>
POSSIBLE SPOILERS
I'm currently reading _Book Of The Long Sun_, but it's been a while
since I've read _Book of the New Sun_. on page 262-26 of the Tor
paperback printing of _Lake . . ._, Scylla/Chenille is talking to Auk
and says
"I was going to say that we took new names that would fit. Daddy [Pas]
was Typhon the First, back home."
I think Severian mentions Typhon the First as an earlier Autarch in the
Book of the New Sun, somewhere. I don't remember exactly where though.
--
Dave C.
iN*T*x
"To break the rules is to break the spell" - C. Lasch
Brad Payne
In article <341122a3...@news.concentric.net>, Rich Horton wrote:
>On 5 Sep 1997 19:14:59 GMT, pa...@notule.loni.ucla.edu (Brad Payne)
>wrote:
>
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> SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK OF THE LONG SUN BELOW
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>>1) The Outsider who enlightens and intermittently aids Silk is Severian
>>in his divine Conciliator aspect. At one point in the Long Sun books,
>>Silk describes the Outsider as a man with additional voices, a female
>>voice over one shoulder and a multitude over the other, presumably
>>Thecla on one hand and the multitudes he incorporated from the old
>>Autarch on the other.
>>
>This has been suggested, and is one interpretation, but I prefer to
>say that the Outsider is simply the True (Christian) God.
Not sure there's really an inconsistency there. In Wolfe's universe,
Severian *is* God, or has the same relationship to God that Jesus
does. Wolfe makes the comparison explicitly in _Castle of the Otter_,
but there are many clues within BOTNS to support this view as well. I
see the Outsider as God in his Severian aspect, based on his clearly
divine attributes and the points of similarity to Severian noted
above.
>>Typhon's family. Pax is described as having two heads, a reference to
>>Typhon's bid for immortality via head grafting.
>>
>This is correct, except it's Pas.
Thanks. Knew something didn't look right there.
>Somewhere it is said that the Whorl has been traveling for 300 years,
>which seems =way= too short. But there is also a suggestion that a
>decimal point has been misplaced, which would make the travel time a
>more reasonable 3000 years. I can't recall how far in Severian's past
Could the Long Sun Whorl have been going fast enough for significant
time dilation? Don't remember a discussion of how it was propelled.
Could have had a trip of any length in 300 years in that case. 3000
years seems an awfully long time for the (admittedly few) female chems
to have survived. Also, the original crew had their memories erased -
surely in 3000 years the memories about Urth would have been
sufficiently muddled to make the story work anyway. That is, the
erasure wouldn't have been necessary as a plot point.
>I would suggest that interested people join the Whorl and Urth mailing
>lists. I can't recall the subscription information right now, but
>there is a web page with archives of past posts (including extensive
>discussion of the links between the two series) and also subscription
>info. An Alta Vista search ought to find it.
Thanks for the pointer.
Michael Straight
On 6 Sep 1997, Brad Payne wrote:
>
> In article <341122a3...@news.concentric.net>, Rich Horton wrote:
> >On 5 Sep 1997 19:14:59 GMT, pa...@notule.loni.ucla.edu (Brad Payne)
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> > SPOILERS FOR THE BOOK OF THE LONG SUN BELOW
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >>1) The Outsider who enlightens and intermittently aids Silk is Severian
> >>in his divine Conciliator aspect. At one point in the Long Sun books,
> >>Silk describes the Outsider as a man with additional voices, a female
> >>voice over one shoulder and a multitude over the other, presumably
> >>Thecla on one hand and the multitudes he incorporated from the old
> >>Autarch on the other.
> >>
> >This has been suggested, and is one interpretation, but I prefer to
> >say that the Outsider is simply the True (Christian) God.
>
> Not sure there's really an inconsistency there. In Wolfe's universe,
> Severian *is* God, or has the same relationship to God that Jesus
> does. Wolfe makes the comparison explicitly in _Castle of the Otter_,
> but there are many clues within BOTNS to support this view as well. I
> see the Outsider as God in his Severian aspect, based on his clearly
> divine attributes and the points of similarity to Severian noted
> above.
In other interviews, Wolfe has preferred to refer to Severian as a
"Christian" figure rather than a "Christ" figure. Severian is a human
being who has been given divine-like attributes.
SMTIRCAHIAGEHLT
Dave Conrad
Michael Straight wrote:
<stuff snipped about the nature of the Outsider>
> > >This has been suggested, and is one interpretation, but I prefer to
> > >say that the Outsider is simply the True (Christian) God.
> >
> > Not sure there's really an inconsistency there. In Wolfe's universe,
> > Severian *is* God, or has the same relationship to God that Jesus
> > does. Wolfe makes the comparison explicitly in _Castle of the Otter_,
> > but there are many clues within BOTNS to support this view as well. I
> > see the Outsider as God in his Severian aspect, based on his clearly
> > divine attributes and the points of similarity to Severian noted
> > above.
>
> In other interviews, Wolfe has preferred to refer to Severian as a
> "Christian" figure rather than a "Christ" figure. Severian is a human
> being who has been given divine-like attributes.
>
> SMTIRCAHIAGEHLT
Quotes from Gene Wolfe, From an interview with G.W. by James Jordan
I don't think of Severian as being a Christ figure; I think of Severian
as being a
Christian figure. He is a man who has been born into a very perverse
background,
who is gradually trying to become better.
In so far as there is a Christ figure it is Severian. That doesn't mean
he has
to be identified with Christ. He is in a position similar to that of
Christ. But really it is a different position because Christ really is
both God and man. Severian is not. Severian is a Christian rather than a
Christ. But he has been taken as the representative of humanity by whom
humanity is to be judged. This I think is what has happened perhaps with
the actual human Jesus
So I think that as far as Gene Wolfe is concerned, it is safe to say
that Severian is _not_ the Christ.
Jonathan Mann
Rich Horton wrote:
> I would suggest that interested people join the Whorl and Urth mailing
> lists. I can't recall the subscription information right now, but
> there is a web page with archives of past posts (including extensive
> discussion of the links between the two series) and also subscription
> info. An Alta Vista search ought to find it.
The Whorl mailing list is at:
http://moonmilk.volcano.org/whorl/
The Urth mailing list (now defunct, but there are archives):
http://moonmilk.volcano.org/urth/
A good Gene Wolfe page is at:
http://world.std.com/~pduggan/wolfe.html
-- Jon
-------------------------------------------------
- Jon Mann - Maybe you are the sun -
- jemann@gisca. - You really look like one -
- adelaide.edu.au - From what i've read you do -
Joel Baxter
This is not really related to the thread, except that this discussion of the
Long Sun books reminded me of it.
Extreme Spoilers ahead. If you haven't finished Exodus, you probably don't
want to see this.
So Quetzal is one of the vampirish aliens from the destination double-planet
system, yes? And yet he has been on the Whorl for a long time before it
reached the system. Any clue as to how this might be? I'm thinking there
might be some information squirreled away in the first couple of books, but
it has been a lonnnng time since I read those.
We know the aliens have at least limited interplanetary spaceflight, anyway.
At least I don't assume that Wolfe implies them crossing the interplanetary
gap by flapping their wings, although (being Wolfe) maybe he does. :-)
Probably all will be revealed in the Short Sun books, but if anyone has any
speculations on how Quetzal got aboard the Whorl I'd be happy to hear them.
--
Joel Baxter jba...@lemur.stanford.edu http://lemur.stanford.edu/~jbaxter/
Kevin J. Maroney
jba...@lemur.Stanford.EDU (Joel Baxter) wrote:
>Extreme Spoilers ahead. If you haven't finished Exodus, you probably don't
>want to see this.
>
>
>
>So Quetzal is one of the vampirish aliens from the destination double-planet
>system, yes? And yet he has been on the Whorl for a long time before it
>reached the system. Any clue as to how this might be? I'm thinking there
>might be some information squirreled away in the first couple of books, but
>it has been a lonnnng time since I read those.
All of this has been thrashed in detail on the Whorl mailing list
(archives available at <http://moonmilk.volcano.org/whorl/>), with no
definitive answer. It is *possible* that Wolfe has deliberately not
given enough information to deduce the answer, withholding it instead
until the follow-up series, _The Book of the Short Sun_ (well underway
as we speak).
That's very un-Wolfian, though; in all of his other works of which
I've read (which is all of them available in book form except for
_Operation Ares_), Wolfe *does* provide all of the information
necessary to answer any question about the narrative, albeit often
very indirectly.
All we can say for certain about Quezal is that he has been Prolocutor
for 33 years, which is around the time that the _Whorl_ arrived in the
target star system. How Quezal came to be Prolocutor is, as yet,
undisclosed, as is anything about his life before his office; what his
exact motives were/are is very unclear. Wolfe has said explicitly (in
interviews) that Pas did *not* know about the inhumi when he launched
the _Whorl_, but that does not mean that the inhumi were not on the
_Whorl_ for a very long time.