Tor: The Unstoppable Hegemonizing Swarm
James Nicoll
REEF:
Product Details
Hardcover: 608 pages
Publisher: Tor Books (January 9, 2007)
Language: English
http://www.amazon.com/Off-Armageddon-Reef-David-Weber/dp/0765315009
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Daniel Silevitch
> From the Amazon entry for David Weber's upcoming OFF ARMAGEDON
> REEF:
>
> Product Details
>
> Hardcover: 608 pages
> Publisher: Tor Books (January 9, 2007)
> Language: English
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Off-Armageddon-Reef-David-Weber/dp/0765315009
From the description:
"Off Armageddon Reef is his first novel for Tor, and his most ambitious
work ever."
I'm not sure whether that last clause should be taken as a good sign or
as a warning label.
-dms
Robert Sneddon
<jdni...@panix.com> writes
> From the Amazon entry for David Weber's upcoming OFF ARMAGEDON
>REEF:
>
>Product Details
>
>Hardcover: 608 pages
So it's a short story, is it?
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Bill Snyder
<fr...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <eforfi$opg$1...@reader1.panix.com>, James Nicoll
><jdni...@panix.com> writes
>> From the Amazon entry for David Weber's upcoming OFF ARMAGEDON
>>REEF:
>>
>>Product Details
>>
>>Hardcover: 608 pages
>
> So it's a short story, is it?
As you know, Robert, the Expository Lump in a Weber book might more
justly be called the Expository Megalith, or perhaps the Expository
Planetoid. The buildup to a key battle is all too likely to consist
of Lieut Soquepuppit's internal monologue on the development of Space
Warfare through the Ages, with particular reference to the recent
re-introduction of the Gravitic Grabber, pioneered back in the Second
Age of Colonization by High Admiral Tucker J. Phanwankh, but
subsequently neglected over the centuries, inasmuch as the "immovable
object" defense, revolving as it did around the use of a series of
precisely phased energy/mass and mass/energy converters to produce a
"virtual hypermass" in the attacked ship, thereby causing the
attacking Grabber to exit from its carrying vessel at relativistic
velocity, appeared to be a decisive counter; but with the recent
advent of the Subspace Spike which allows the Grabber to be anchored
to the very fabric of the spacetime continuum itself, the tactical
imperatives which for the last several centuries have dictated the
Disc of Battle formation (and the consequent dread in the heart of
every commander of someday being "Mooned"), have begun to yield to the
necessity . . .
That's funny; I'm sure there was a sentence there a second ago.
And what do you know, the battle appears to be all over. Shame we
missed it; it was bloody, and heroic, and tragic, and incredibly
exciting, and a triumph of innovative tactics over stodgy ones, and
therefore entirely too much trouble to actually try to describe on the
printed page. But in a minute Lt Soquepuppit will be back to choke up
audibly over the incredible valor of the warriors, and muse sadly on
the drifting wreckage, and then tell us how the courier ships which
bear the battle-tidings home will arrive there in mere hours thanks to
the replacement of the Hyperspace Sail by the Hyperspace Parasol, a
recent consequence of the development of the curved force-beam . . .
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
James Nicoll
A reasonably trustworthy source says that the editor is Patrick
Nielsen Hayden, who acquired all three Tor novels nominated for a Hugo
last year and who edited two of them.
Wayne Throop
: As you know, Robert, the Expository Lump in a Weber book might more
: justly be called the Expository Megalith, or perhaps the Expository
: Planetoid. The buildup to a key battle is all too likely to consist
: of Lieut Soquepuppit's internal monologue on the development of Space
Quite. The single, simplest way to improve one of these epics
would be to tuck those megaliths into footnotes (for the smaller
ones), or appendices (for the larger ones), or fake technical manuals
published separately for the largest ones. That way, the phans
can whankh all they want over them, but they'd be easier to skip.
Hm. The problem, of course is the
: missed it; it was bloody, and heroic, and tragic, and incredibly
: exciting, and a triumph of innovative tactics over stodgy ones, and
: therefore entirely too much trouble to actually try to describe on the
: printed page.
effect might cause the story to be the smaller part of the published tome.
Ah well. There's no universal cure, I suppose.
But some symptoms could be mitigated.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Andrew Wheeler
>
Actually, Tor's output seems to be down a bit from its high of several
years ago; I know their catalogs aren't as fat as they used to be around
about 2000-2001.
--
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--
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If you hated this post, you probably have bad taste anyway.
James Nicoll
Andrew Wheeler <acwh...@optonline.com> wrote:
>James Nicoll wrote:
>>
>
>Actually, Tor's output seems to be down a bit from its high of several
>years ago; I know their catalogs aren't as fat as they used to be around
>about 2000-2001.
I don't suppose you can give us a count of how many titles
each SF publisher has published per year for 2002 - 2006?
Ahasuerus
> I don't suppose you can give us a count of how many titles
> each SF publisher has published per year for 2002 - 2006?
Locus has the numbers for the major houses, but they need to be
massaged. Here is what they have for Tor (excluding Forge and counting
reprints):
February 1999 to January 2000: Total = 227. Tor - 220 (225-5+0); Orb -
7
February 2000 to January 2001: Total = 222. Tor - 211 (207-0+4); Orb -
11
February 2001 to January 2002: Total = 238. Tor - 222 (225-4+1); Orb
-14, Starscape -2
February 2002 to January 2003: Total = 238. Tor - 210 (209-1+2); Orb
-11; Starscape - 17
February 2003 to January 2004: Total = 263. Tor - 219 (219-2+2); Tor
Teen - 5; Tor UK - 1; Orb - 18; Starscape - 20
February 2004 to January 2005: Total = 235. Tor - 209 (210-2+1); Tor
Teen - 8; Orb - 7; Starscape - 11
February 2005 to January 2006: Total = 225. Tor - 196 (195+1); Tor Teen
- 7; Orb - 9; Starscape - 13
--
Ahasuerus
Gene Wirchenko
[SNIP]
>Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mercy at last! <GD&R>
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
I have preferences.
You have biases.
He/She has prejudices.
Elf M. Sternberg
> The buildup to a key battle is all too likely to consist
> of Lieut Soquepuppit's internal monologue...
Dammit, Bill, now I need a new keyboard. And I was drinking
milk, too, which means I now look like the robot from Alien after a
particularly turn! I'm so stealing "Lieut Souqepuppit."
Elf
Jordan
Wayne Throop wrote:
>
> Quite. The single, simplest way to improve one of these epics
> would be to tuck those megaliths into footnotes (for the smaller
> ones), or appendices (for the larger ones), or fake technical manuals
> published separately for the largest ones. That way, the phans
> can whankh all they want over them, but they'd be easier to skip.
Actually the expository megaliths _are_ generally necessary to the
storyline. The problem is that in Weber's recent books they have been
getting longer and they have been inserted in less-than-fully
appropriate places. Weber needs to look at Poul Anderson, E. E. "Doc"
Smith, and Jack Vance, who also used long expositions but used them
much more smoothly.
Poul Anderson wrote his expositions, as he did everything else,
poetically. So poetically that when you read them you can almost hear
wistful music and enjoy them as an art form. If Poul Anderson had
chosen to pursue engineering instead of writing as his main career, no
doubt he would have written engineering manuals so stirring that
instructors would have read them to their technical classes around
campfires, accompanying them with lutes and harps. No doubt Feanor
wrote technical manuals like Anderson wrote science fictional
exposition, and Van Rijn resold them at a profit. Flandry gave them to
barbarian races willing to use them against the Merseian Empire, but
reflected sadly that this could do no more than delay the Long Night.
E. E. "Doc" Smith wrote his expositions, as he did everything else,
with immense verve, joy and gusto. They exploded onto the page with
incredible force, spraying dramatic energies so intense that no mere
editor, no matter how refractory, could resist for more than an
immeasurable instant the inconceivable energies of their composition.
Literary critics held firm longer, glowing first red, then white-hot
with rage at the popularity of an author who so blatantly defied
Hemingway's edicts, but ultimately went ultra-violet and then slumped
into the black of death, while "Doc" Smith continues to be reprinted.
Jack Vance used mostly chapter introductions, footnotes and appendices
(depending on the story format) to present things which absolutely had
to be presented to the reader but which could not be well presented in
the story development. One advantage of this technique is that, once
you've decided to run a piece of the _Encyclopedia Galactica_ or
_Planetary Travel Guide_ or _Curious and Annoying Customs of Barbarian
Planets of the Alastor Cluster_, or whatever, you can include a _lot_
of exposition and still have it count as entertainment, because the
reader enjoys the meta-fiction of reading part of the
book-within-a-book. Besides, how else will he learn the full,
disgusting implications of the way that this planet plays hussade?
I didn't mention Tolkien, who was of course quite good at this but is
generally not appreciated for it because we _have_ his
books-behind-the-book, courtesy of his son Christopher. Read _Lord of
the Rings_ someday with a _full_ awareness of what's in the
_Silmarillion_, and you'll be AMAZED at how much of his background is
explained through implication in the fragmentary poems and legends that
his characters tell each other. By the way, in both _The Hobbit_ and
_The Lord of the Rings_, Tolkien makes good use of Naive Protagonists
to whom things have to be explained: both stories feature multi-racial
hero groups, and of course what's common knowledge to an Elf may be
unknown to a Dwarf, or Hobbit, and thus legitimately require
explanation in dialogue. This is a good technique, which fantasy
writers in general would do well to copy, instead of simply copying
Tolkien's _world_.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Mike Schilling
"Jordan" <JSBass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1159806148....@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> [snip good stuff about Anderson and Smith]
>
> Jack Vance used mostly chapter introductions, footnotes and appendices
> (depending on the story format) to present things which absolutely had
> to be presented to the reader but which could not be well presented in
> the story development. One advantage of this technique is that, once
> you've decided to run a piece of the _Encyclopedia Galactica_ or
> _Planetary Travel Guide_ or _Curious and Annoying Customs of Barbarian
> Planets of the Alastor Cluster_, or whatever, you can include a _lot_
> of exposition and still have it count as entertainment, because the
> reader enjoys the meta-fiction of reading part of the
> book-within-a-book. Besides, how else will he learn the full,
> disgusting implications of the way that this planet plays hussade?
Also because Vance never simply dumped facts; the style in which the
infodump was presented was always entertaining, and often an ironic comment
on the provenance and quality of the information.
Gene Wirchenko
"High Admiral Tucker J. Phanwankh" was pretty good, too!
jack tingle
Wayne Throop wrote:
> The single, simplest way to improve one of these epics
> would be to tuck those megaliths into footnotes (for the smaller
> ones), or appendices (for the larger ones), or fake technical manuals
> published separately for the largest ones. That way, the phans
> can whankh all they want over them, but they'd be easier to skip.
I once semi-seriously proposed that someone with excess time take the
ebook versions of HH7 and 8 (Honor Among Enemies and Echoes of Honor)
and mill out the dreck about anything but the basic story. That would
turn the two volumes into the good, one-volume, mil-sf novel that lurks
amongst the treecats and the angst. Alas, it probably wouldn't work for
subsequent HH novels, since there isn't even one good novel hiddden
amongst the remaining 3(?). (I lose count.)
I guess I'm hoping for a competent editor. Never mind.
Sadly,
Jack Tingle (who really liked HH1-6)
Joe Bednorz
That's brilliantly done. So well done that it made me think as well
as laugh.
It just occurred to me that this isn't warporn so much as Engineer
Porn mixed with History Porn.
Other examples of Engineer Porn are:
- E. E. "Doc" Smith's
- "Spacehounds of IPC"
- Almost pure Engineer Porn
- "Skylark" series.
- "Lensman" series.
- John Campbell
- "The Mightiest Machine"
- S. M. Stirling's
- "Marching Through Georgia"
- Especially the appendices: Engineer Porn and Alt-Hist Porn
- Lots of War Porn as well.
- "The Stone Dogs"
- 'Yesterday's Tomorrow' was a good phrase to describe this.
- "The Chosen," (with David Drake) which consists mostly of:
- Engineer Porn
- War Porn
- Alt-Hist Porn
- David Drake's "Hammers Slammers" series
- Strongly mixed with War Porn
- Modern television series
- "Megastructures"
- "Seconds from Disaster"
- Disaster Porn frequently mixed with Engineer Porn
The appendices to J. R. R. Tolkien's "The Return of the King"[1] are
the perfect example of History Porn. (With some serious Language Porn
thrown in.)
This may be a good argument for moving the "expository lumps" parodied
above to appendices. (As someone here on RASFW recommended.)
[1] Also known as "The Lord of the Rings, Volume III"
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All the best, Joe Bednorz
mark...@earthlink.net
> Wayne Throop wrote:
> >
> > Quite. The single, simplest way to improve one of these epics
> > would be to tuck those megaliths into footnotes (for the smaller
> > ones), or appendices (for the larger ones), or fake technical manuals
> > published separately for the largest ones. That way, the phans
> > can whankh all they want over them, but they'd be easier to skip.
>
> Actually the expository megaliths _are_ generally necessary to the
> storyline. The problem is that in Weber's recent books they have been
> getting longer and they have been inserted in less-than-fully
> appropriate places. Weber needs to look at Poul Anderson, E. E. "Doc"
> Smith, and Jack Vance, who also used long expositions but used them
> much more smoothly.
Actually Weber needs to look at himself. He used to be much better at
this, but since his biggest phans no longer care he no longer cares and
no longer takes the time necessary to actually edit his material into
the best shape. You do remember authorial self-editing, don't you?
mark...@earthlink.net
> Wayne Throop wrote:
> > The single, simplest way to improve one of these epics
> > would be to tuck those megaliths into footnotes (for the smaller
> > ones), or appendices (for the larger ones), or fake technical manuals
> > published separately for the largest ones. That way, the phans
> > can whankh all they want over them, but they'd be easier to skip.
>
> I once semi-seriously proposed that someone with excess time take the
> ebook versions of HH7 and 8 (Honor Among Enemies and Echoes of Honor)
> and mill out the dreck about anything but the basic story. That would
> turn the two volumes into the good, one-volume, mil-sf novel that lurks
> amongst the treecats and the angst.
Um, Honor Among Enemies was book 6, In Enemy Hands was book 7, and it
was fairly tight. Actually, not even Echoes of Honor was nearly as bad
as any of the subsequent books. There was an awful lot of plot to
cover all over the galaxy in that book, not just expositional
infodumps. It was definitely *after* that book that he went off the
rails.
> Alas, it probably wouldn't work for
> subsequent HH novels, since there isn't even one good novel hiddden
> amongst the remaining 3(?). (I lose count.)
I agree.
> I guess I'm hoping for a competent editor. Never mind.
Or one that can actually tell Weber and the publisher they need to take
more time before sending the book to the printers, maybe actually not
schedule the book before it is finished.
David Tate
> jack tingle wrote:
> > I guess I'm hoping for a competent editor. Never mind.
>
> Or one that can actually tell Weber and the publisher they need to take
> more time before sending the book to the printers, maybe actually not
> schedule the book before it is finished.
Can't happen.
Weber, even if he agreed with our assessment of his bloatacious
tendencies, has only weak motives to put in the extra work to cut it
out. His editor, on the other hand, has extremely tangible motives for
getting as many bloated doorstops as possible onto the market, as
quickly as possible. Since quality no longer matters to sales[1], the
profit-maximizing strategy is pretty obvious.
David Tate
[1] Everyone who might potentially be turned off buying the new books
an account of bloat has already been turned off. Everyone who is still
buying them will continue to do so. Ergo...
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
>quality no longer matters to sales
No, no - Quality _is_ sales.
Get with the program.
Michael Stemper
>On 4 Oct 2006 09:27:12 -0700, "David Tate" <dt...@ida.org> wrote:
>>quality no longer matters to sales
>
>No, no - Quality _is_ sales.
No, no. Not sales; SELL-THROUGH!
>Get with the program.
Indeed.
--
Michael F. Stemper
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