sf stories - ending with a whimper
Will DuPower
but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
thanks,
r
Lawrence Watt-Evans
I can't resist mentioning Damon Knight's "Not with a Bang," for
obvious reasons.
But yes, there are better examples of what you describe, usually with
far-future settings. I believe John Campbell wrote one -- "Twilight,"
maybe? I know he wrote a story with that title, but I'm not sure it's
the one I'm remembering.
There's an early Harlan Ellison story where an alien species comes to
Earth to commit mass suicide; don't remember the title.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
I'm serializing novels at http://www.ethshar.com/TheFinalCalling01.html
and http://www.watt-evans.com/realmsoflight1.html
Will DuPower
"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> wrote in message
news:4c2l76594smhq4bi6...@news.eternal-september.org...
Thanks for the help, and if anyone could ID the two stories you mentioned
that would be great.
Thanks,
Robo
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> wrote in message
>news:4c2l76594smhq4bi6...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:08:50 -0400, "Will DuPower"
>> <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Thanks for the help, and if anyone could ID the two stories you mentioned
>that would be great.
I checked. "Twilight," by John W. Campbell, and "The Sky is Burning,"
by Harlan Ellison.
There are others, I'm sure.
Howard Brazee
<nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
There are stories where what we see is the whimper - there may have
been a bang before.
But do the Hothouse series fit your criteria?
And it could have ended for humans, as in _Saturn's Children_, by
people not caring anymore.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Hmm.
Van Vogt _The Battle of Forever_
Franke _The Orchid Cage_
Brin the Uplift universe
Darlton et al, the Perry Rhodan series
Also see the birthrate in Japan..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Mike Schilling
"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> wrote in message
news:4c2l76594smhq4bi6...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:08:50 -0400, "Will DuPower"
> <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
>>but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?'
>>Whimper-geddon
>>is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
>>plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
>>novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
>>suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
>
> I can't resist mentioning Damon Knight's "Not with a Bang," for
> obvious reasons.
This is so obvious I'm ashamed to admit it never occurred to me, but is that
title a pun?
Mike Schilling
"Will DuPower" <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:i5e0mf$baj$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
In Jack Williamson's "With Folded Hands", human existence becomes
meaningless. The famous final line is "There was nothing left to do".
Quadibloc
> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:08:50 -0400, "Will DuPower"
>
> <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
> >but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
> >is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
> >plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
> >novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
> >suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
>
> There are stories where what we see is the whimper - there may have
> been a bang before.
>
> But do the Hothouse series fit your criteria?
>
> And it could have ended for humans, as in _Saturn's Children_, by
> people not caring anymore.
I'm wondering if City by Clifford D. Simak might fit in this category.
John Savard
lal_truckee
Lots of birth rate collapse stories, population ages and withers.
Greybeard (Aldiss?) comes to mind. Childhood's End (Clarke) is a variation.
David Johnston
<nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Richard Matheson, "Lemmings"
Clifford Simak, "City"
Arthur C. Clarke, "Childhood's End"
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Yes.
Dan Goodman
But then he wrote a sequel with a happy ending.
--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com)
Mike Voss
Reminiscent to me of Stephen Baxter's Titan, but
it's entirely possible I was the one who didn't give a
shit by then.
Mike
Butch Malahide
wrote:
> > obvious reasons.
>
> This is so obvious I'm ashamed to admit it never occurred to me, but is that
> title a pun?
I'm not the least bit ashamed to admit it never occurred to me.
Mike Schilling
"Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote in message
news:xn0gygkt...@news.iphouse.com...
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Will DuPower" <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:i5e0mf$baj$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> > I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends
>> > with a bang, but what about stories where the world ends in a
>> > 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon is supposed to include things like
>> > climate change, population crash and plagues. I am looking for
>> > something more specific. Are there stories or novels where
>> > civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a suicide
>> > plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
>>
>> In Jack Williamson's "With Folded Hands", human existence becomes
>> meaningless. The famous final line is "There was nothing left to
>> do".
>
> But then he wrote a sequel with a happy ending.
Next you'll tell me Lucas made sequels to Star Wars that tried to make it
all mean something.
David Cowie
> Lots of birth rate collapse stories, population ages and withers.
> Greybeard (Aldiss?) comes to mind. Childhood's End (Clarke) is a
> variation.
CHILDHOOD'S END ends with a very big bang, as I recall.
--
David Cowie http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidcowie/
Containment Failure + 59523:32
David Johnston
>On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:11:05 -0700, lal_truckee wrote:
>
>> Lots of birth rate collapse stories, population ages and withers.
>> Greybeard (Aldiss?) comes to mind. Childhood's End (Clarke) is a
>> variation.
>
>CHILDHOOD'S END ends with a very big bang, as I recall.
But civilisation had ended with a whimper decades earlier.
Shawn Wilson
Implied in Vernor Vinge's 'Marooned in Realtime'. People come out of
stasis to find humanity gone and Earth empty, no explanation.
Will DuPower
> But do the Hothouse series fit your criteria?
Are you referring to Aldiss' Hothouse? Otherwise I am unfamiliar with the
series.
Best,
robo
Dorothy J Heydt
A momentary side-glance in the webcomic _A Miracle of Science_:
http://project-apollo.net/mos/mos137.html
Note that in this story Mars (that is, all the humans on Mars)
have become a group mind.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
Dorothy J Heydt
Consider how _A Clockwork Orange_ originally (and eventually in a
new edition) had a final chapter in which the protagonist has
grown up a bit, is working for a living and thinking of getting
married. The editor of the original publication demanded that it
be removed because it made the novel too upbeat.
Dorothy J Heydt
The title, both of the story and of the post, echo the last lines
of T. S. Eliot's "The Hollow Men":
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
Dorothy J Heydt
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:08:50 -0400, "Will DuPower"
><nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
>>but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
>>is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
>>plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
>>novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
>>suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
>
>I can't resist mentioning Damon Knight's "Not with a Bang," for
>obvious reasons.
>
>But yes, there are better examples of what you describe, usually with
>far-future settings. I believe John Campbell wrote one -- "Twilight,"
>maybe? I know he wrote a story with that title, but I'm not sure it's
>the one I'm remembering.
Yes, "Twilight," though the civilization dies more of heat death
than of existential angst. There are still a few human-descentants
around when the time traveler visits there. There's another
story, "Night," in which the time traveler finds a civilization
that has completely burnt out, no energy left in any of the
machinery (colder than hell), no survivors.
Campbell was 25 when he wrote it.
>There's an early Harlan Ellison story where an alien species comes to
>Earth to commit mass suicide; don't remember the title.
Now, that one I don't know at all.
Dorothy J Heydt
Yes, particularly if you include the final story, "Epilog", which
didn't appear in _City_ but in a Campbell memorial anthology.
Lynn McGuire
"The Nine Billion Names of God" by Arthur C. Clarke
Read it at: http://lucis.net/stuff/clarke/9billion_clarke.html
Buy it at: http://www.amazon.com/billion-names-Signet-Arthur-Clarke/dp/0451147553
Lynn
Mike Schilling
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:L7xL4...@kithrup.com...
And Damon Knight, being Damon Knight, used that title for a story in which
the human race came to an end because a prudish woman refused to have sex.
Dorothy J Heydt
As in, "I wouldn't sleep with you if you were the last man on
earth"?
I can sympathize.
However, if you're actually down to one, count her, one woman
(how many men were there? One? Several? Several million?) who
is suppose to be Eve to the whole species, that's so great a
genetic bottleneck that you'd probably lose the species anyway.
There's a story along those lines by Joanna Russ, too, where a
whole lot of women (crashlanded on an alien planet) all agree not
to have babies. Anyone recall the title?
tphile
> I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
> but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
> is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
> plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
> novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
> suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
>
>
> r
On The Beach by Nevil Shute novel and film
Definitely
tphile
Mike Schilling
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:L7xos...@kithrup.com...
Or "I wouldn't let you bang me (etc.)".
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Am I recalling the wrong story, or hadn't he already got that agreement and
what, in fact, she wouldn't do was come into the "Men's" restroom to get
him when he was stricken with paralysis?
Ted
Butch Malahide
> In article <i5emjf$gp...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Schilling <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Dorothy J Heydt" <djhe...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
> >news:L7xos...@kithrup.com...
> >> In article <i5ejsd$5q...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >> Mike Schilling <mscottschill...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>"Dorothy J Heydt" <djhe...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:L7xL4...@kithrup.com...
> >>>> In article <i5e5et$4i...@news.eternal-september.org>,
You remember right.
Dorothy J Heydt
Well, the people didn't die with a bang. They died of the
aftereffects of a bang. But they didn't die of not giving a
shit, either.
tphile
> In article <09d56513-38b3-4a84-96ea-d4c886e22...@i13g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
they quit fighting for life, they quit the struggle for survival.
They lost hope and suicided instead of facing the end.
They gave up
That is a whimper
tphile
Howard Brazee
I believe they were stories before they were a novel. But I've only
read the book. (yes)
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>> In Jack Williamson's "With Folded Hands", human existence becomes
>> meaningless. The famous final line is "There was nothing left to
>> do".
>
>But then he wrote a sequel with a happy ending.
*I* wasn't happy with the sequel. The story was great. The sequel
made some money for him, which I suppose is OK.
Howard Brazee
Heydt) wrote:
>Consider how _A Clockwork Orange_ originally (and eventually in a
>new edition) had a final chapter in which the protagonist has
>grown up a bit, is working for a living and thinking of getting
>married. The editor of the original publication demanded that it
>be removed because it made the novel too upbeat.
Interesting. I think I like the original ending - because it is much
nastier than what I read.
Bill Snyder
_We Who Are About To . . ._ Very 70's. We're all doomed, doomed,
I tell you, so we might as well just cut our own throats now and
get it over with.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
William December Starr
Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> said:
> I checked. "Twilight," by John W. Campbell, and "The Sky is
> Burning," by Harlan Ellison.
IIRC, the punch line in the Ellison story was that the reason the
aliens came _here_ to commit suicide was because it was the best
place in all of the universe.
-- wds
William December Starr
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) said:
> There's a story along those lines by Joanna Russ, too, where a
> whole lot of women (crashlanded on an alien planet) all agree not
> to have babies. Anyone recall the title?
"Oh God I'm So Depressed and I Want You To Be Too"?
-- wds
Mike Schilling
"Ted Nolan <tednolan>" <t...@loft.tnolan.com> wrote in message
news:8e070e...@mid.individual.net...
She'd agreed to marry him, but the ceremony hadn't yet taken place.
Bill Snyder
Dorothy J Heydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:37:22 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>Consider how _A Clockwork Orange_ originally (and eventually in a
>>new edition) had a final chapter in which the protagonist has
>>grown up a bit, is working for a living and thinking of getting
>>married. The editor of the original publication demanded that it
>>be removed because it made the novel too upbeat.
>
>Interesting. I think I like the original ending - because it is much
>nastier than what I read.
Really?
Everybody to his own taste, said the old lady as she kissed the
cow.
David DeLaney
>Mike Schilling wrote:
>> In Jack Williamson's "With Folded Hands", human existence becomes
>> meaningless. The famous final line is "There was nothing left to
>> do".
>
>But then he wrote a sequel with a happy ending.
... ... and now I'm interpreting that in EXACTLY the wrong way. Joy.
Dave "I blame rule 34" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>On 8/29/10 9:08 AM, Will DuPower wrote:
>> I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
>> but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
>> is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
>> plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
>> novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
>> suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
>
>Greybeard (Aldiss?) comes to mind. Childhood's End (Clarke) is a variation.
I think Last and First Men (Stapledon) has at least two examples of this
among the various Men-and-Martians? I could be wrong... One from de-evolution
past the point of intelligence, and another for the winged Men on Venus all
flying into the volcano?
Dave
Wim Lewis
Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with
> a bang, but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?'
> Whimper-geddon is supposed to include things like climate change,
> population crash and plagues. I am looking for something more
> specific. Are there stories or novels where civilizations die from
> existential despair, or perhaps a suicide plague, or even 'not giving
> a sh*t.'
"Racial senescence" was a common enough trope at one point that by
the 80's or so it was an annoying cliche --- that intelligent species
have a natural life span like individual organisms do, from youthful
exuberance to aged wisdom to ancient decrepitude and decay.
There's a short story, which I think is by Clarke but could be by
Asimov, in which humanity has found alien ruins on some distant
planet. Archaeologist figure out that at some point, the alien race
systematically, unhurriedly, and unviolently killed itself (suicide
centers in every city, etc). Presumably they'd found some reason to
think death was a good idea, but not urgent. Archaeologist teams who
study the aliens' civilization too much eventually come to agree with
them and kill themselves. Eventually the planet is placed off limits.
--
Wim Lewis <wi...@hhhh.org>, Seattle, WA, USA. PGP keyID 27F772C1
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history." -Hegel
Dan Goodman
For a different take, see Fredric Brown's short story "Letter to a
Phoenix."
--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal dsgood.dreamwidth.org (livejournal.com, insanejournal.com)
David Goldfarb
Wim Lewis <wi...@undertow.hhhh.org> wrote:
>There's a short story, which I think is by Clarke but could be by
>Asimov, in which humanity has found alien ruins on some distant
>planet. Archaeologist figure out that at some point, the alien race
>systematically, unhurriedly, and unviolently killed itself (suicide
>centers in every city, etc). Presumably they'd found some reason to
>think death was a good idea, but not urgent. Archaeologist teams who
>study the aliens' civilization too much eventually come to agree with
>them and kill themselves. Eventually the planet is placed off limits.
That sounds a lot like one of Larry Niven's "Draco Tavern" stories.
(Looking over the list of titles at the ISFDB, I think it's "The Subject
is Closed".) At the end, Schumann starts wondering what the aliens
had discovered, and the chirpsithtra he's talking to cautions him
against thinking too hard about it -- he might figure it out.
--
David Goldfarb | "Justice or immortality. An intriguing choice."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Babylon 5, "Deathwalker"
Norm D. Plumber
I haven't read the Ellison mentioned. When people found out why the
aliens came here to commit suicide, did that trigger mass human
suicides? As in, if this is the best it gets just shoot me now?
--
"You mean, they actually have to *make* things?" --Lady Serpentine (shuddering)
Dirk van den Boom
> Darlton et al, the Perry Rhodan series
You have to be more specific, as death by complete
degeneration only applies to one specific galactic
civilisation and is later actually reversed.
Howard Brazee
Heydt) wrote:
>>>Consider how _A Clockwork Orange_ originally (and eventually in a
>>>new edition) had a final chapter in which the protagonist has
>>>grown up a bit, is working for a living and thinking of getting
>>>married. The editor of the original publication demanded that it
>>>be removed because it made the novel too upbeat.
>>
>>Interesting. I think I like the original ending - because it is much
>>nastier than what I read.
>
>Really?
It depends on how it was written. Since it hasn't been published, we
can only guess. It could be similar to the "happy" ending of 1984.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Well, if the Arkonide decline was ever reversed, it was after the books
stopped being tranlated into English in the US..
Ilya2
> On Aug 29, 9:08 am, "Will DuPower" <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
> > but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
> > is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
> > plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
> > novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
> > suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
>
> it's entirely possible I was the one who didn't give a
> shit by then.
In "Titan" *civilization* (on Earth) ends very much with a bang --
it's just not the end of the book.
Ilya2
> In article <i5ejdi$3q...@news.eternal-september.org>,
>
> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> > I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with
> > a bang, but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?'
> > Whimper-geddon is supposed to include things like climate change,
> > population crash and plagues. I am looking for something more
> > specific. Are there stories or novels where civilizations die from
> > existential despair, or perhaps a suicide plague, or even 'not giving
> > a sh*t.'
>
> "Racial senescence" was a common enough trope at one point that by
> the 80's or so it was an annoying cliche --- that intelligent species
> have a natural life span like individual organisms do, from youthful
> exuberance to aged wisdom to ancient decrepitude and decay.
Vinge's "A Fire Upond the Deep" stated it explicitely and had at least
one example of such "senescent species". I found it completely
unconvincing, especially since (also explicitely stated) individual
members of the species did not have to be senescent at all.
Ilya2
> I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
> but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
> is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
> plagues.
Definitions may vary, but I would consider extinction by plague to be
a "bang".
If the plague wipes out most but not all human species, leaving so few
survivors they eventually dwindle to nothing, then I suppose that's a
"whimper".
I would say Wells' "Time Machine" qualifies as "ends in a whimper".
Dorothy J Heydt
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 02:31:07 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>>>Consider how _A Clockwork Orange_ originally (and eventually in a
>>>>new edition) had a final chapter in which the protagonist has
>>>>grown up a bit, is working for a living and thinking of getting
>>>>married. The editor of the original publication demanded that it
>>>>be removed because it made the novel too upbeat.
>>>
>>>Interesting. I think I like the original ending - because it is much
>>>nastier than what I read.
>>
>>Really?
>
>It depends on how it was written. Since it hasn't been published, we
>can only guess. It could be similar to the "happy" ending of 1984.
I believe it *was* published. I haven't, you understand, read
it; but I read about a revised edition with the missing chapter
restored. I would google for it but I just woke up.
Mike Schilling
"Dorothy J Heydt" <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote in message
news:L7z0y...@kithrup.com...
> In article <pu7n76pmf16rh4pnq...@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>>On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 02:31:07 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>>>Consider how _A Clockwork Orange_ originally (and eventually in a
>>>>>new edition) had a final chapter in which the protagonist has
>>>>>grown up a bit, is working for a living and thinking of getting
>>>>>married. The editor of the original publication demanded that it
>>>>>be removed because it made the novel too upbeat.
>>>>
>>>>Interesting. I think I like the original ending - because it is much
>>>>nastier than what I read.
>>>
>>>Really?
>>
>>It depends on how it was written. Since it hasn't been published, we
>>can only guess. It could be similar to the "happy" ending of 1984.
>
> I believe it *was* published. I haven't, you understand, read
> it; but I read about a revised edition with the missing chapter
> restored. I would google for it but I just woke up.
Dorothy is correct. My son read ACO for school last year, and his copy
included the original ending. It's quite short and simple; there'd be
nothing remarkable about it if it hadn't been omitted.
Shawn Wilson
> There's a short story, which I think is by Clarke but could be by
> Asimov, in which humanity has found alien ruins on some distant
> planet. Archaeologist figure out that at some point, the alien race
> systematically, unhurriedly, and unviolently killed itself (suicide
> centers in every city, etc). Presumably they'd found some reason to
> think death was a good idea, but not urgent. Archaeologist teams who
> study the aliens' civilization too much eventually come to agree with
> them and kill themselves. Eventually the planet is placed off limits.
Larry Niven, it's one of the Draco's Tavern stories.
Lynn McGuire
> but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
> is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
> novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
> suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
In "Mutineer's Moon" by David Weber,
http://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
the hero finds out that the previous 5th Emporium of 10,000 ???
planets died out due to a sudden plague that was spread by matter
transportation devices. 60,000 years ensued before the hero was
born.
Lynn
JimboCat
> I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
> but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
> is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
> plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
> novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
> suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
There's a novella from the 60's or 70's where humans colonize a planet
where the indigenous civilization has died out, leaving only one
exquisitely-constructed town surrounding a ginormous tree. Wanting to
preserve the beautiful town and fearing that the tree might fall on
it, they hire woodcutters to cut the thing down, only to discover that
the town was not constructed by the aliens, but grew from the tree
itself. The aliens had all suicided in despair, they figured, once
they realized that becoming civilized and building sanitation
facilities instead of letting the tree absorb their (literal) shit had
doomed the trees that made their houses.
Man, that sure sounds stupid now: I remember liking the story,
though.
More YASID-bait: the story featured a dryad. The tree's sap looked
like blood (but only to the one who was cutting it). The protagonist
was a Native American, possibly named Bluesky. The town begins to rot
immediately once the tree is down. I read it in some anthology.
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"If a tree falls in the forest...it'll land on me." - Andrew Rakin
Richard Todd
> In article <8e1che...@mid.individual.net>,
> Dirk van den Boom <spam...@sf-boom.de> wrote:
>>Am 29.08.2010 19:17, schrieb Ted Nolan <tednolan>:
>>
>>> Darlton et al, the Perry Rhodan series
>>
>>You have to be more specific, as death by complete
>>degeneration only applies to one specific galactic
>>civilisation and is later actually reversed.
>
> Well, if the Arkonide decline was ever reversed, it was after the books
> stopped being tranlated into English in the US..
Oh yeah. From PR #900 or so on, the Arkonides are back as a non-trivial power
in the galaxy, and much of PR#2000-2099 involves the Arkonides having
conquered and occupied several of the colonial worlds of the League of Free
Terrans, and the Arkonides even have possession of Terra itself for a while.
Tim McDaniel
Will DuPower <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a
>bang, but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?'
In "A Rose for Ecclesiastes", a bang *prevents* the end of a world
...
The Pei'an species in Zelazny's _Isle of the Dead_. They've finished
the (three digit)-volume history of the Pei'ans, and they figure they
should just die off.
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com
Howard Brazee
>Vinge's "A Fire Upond the Deep" stated it explicitely and had at least
>one example of such "senescent species". I found it completely
>unconvincing, especially since (also explicitely stated) individual
>members of the species did not have to be senescent at all.
Certainly the species does not behave senescently.
Bill Snyder
I believe this is Robert F. Young's "To Fell a Tree."
Butch Malahide
That's it all right. Big tree grows houses to attract natives, lives
off their organic wastes; dryad, blood-red sap, Indian protagonist
named Blueskies. I recognized it from the description, but couldn't
recall the author & title.
Wim Lewis
David Goldfarb <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>That sounds a lot like one of Larry Niven's "Draco Tavern" stories.
>(Looking over the list of titles at the ISFDB, I think it's "The Subject
>is Closed".)
I think you're right.
Interesting that the Draco Tavern stories have a much more classic-SF
feel to me than most Niven.
tphile
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sounds a lot like Avatar.
Its obvious that Cameron was influenced by ERB's Barsoom series.
Was this another?
tphile
David DeLaney
>Oh yeah. From PR #900 or so on, the Arkonides are back as a non-trivial power
>in the galaxy, and much of PR#2000-2099 involves the Arkonides having
>conquered and occupied several of the colonial worlds of the League of Free
>Terrans, and the Arkonides even have possession of Terra itself for a while.
Just as a side note, this tends to reinforce the "Americans are wimps" view -
we get antsy when a series ends up going as long as thirteen books! Two
THOUSAND and ninety-nine? Forget it...
Dave "granted, that particular one has taken a couple decades to do so" DeLaney
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>Richard Todd <rmt...@ichotolot.servalan.com> wrote:
>>Oh yeah. From PR #900 or so on, the Arkonides are back as a non-trivial power
>>in the galaxy, and much of PR#2000-2099 involves the Arkonides having
>>conquered and occupied several of the colonial worlds of the League of Free
>>Terrans, and the Arkonides even have possession of Terra itself for a while.
>
>Just as a side note, this tends to reinforce the "Americans are wimps" view -
>we get antsy when a series ends up going as long as thirteen books! Two
>THOUSAND and ninety-nine? Forget it...
>
I think the Ackerman Ace editions did make it over #100. At the time I
certainly was miffed to see it cut off. (Later the second try at US
editions mostly seemed to point out how good Mrs. Ackerman's translations
had been -- the new ones *read* like they were translated from the German..)
Mark Zenier
Will DuPower <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
>but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
>is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
>plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
>novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
>suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
For a very soft take, try Simak's _Cemetery World_.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
JimboCat
Yep: that's it. ISFDB failed me. Search on Fiction Titles for "trees"
and it gives no result with only "tree". Search on "tree" and it gives
1000 results including many, many with "street" but no "tree". What's
up with that?
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
“The database hates you right now. The entry might exist or it might
not exist. We would clear this mystery up for you, if we could get to
the database. We tried to look it up, but the database puked up an
error.” [TVTropes.org]
Dan Goodman
Put a space before and a space after "tree." Searching on " tree "
rather than "tree" brings up 97 entries.
Butch Malahide
> JimboCat wrote:
> > > On Aug 30, 7:23 pm, Bill Snyder <bsny...@airmail.net> wrote:
> > > > I believe this is Robert F. Young's "To Fell a Tree."
>
> > "trees" and it gives no result with only "tree". Search on "tree"
> > and it gives 1000 results including many, many with "street" but no
> > "tree". What's up with that?
>
> Put a space before and a space after "tree." Searching on " tree "
> rather than "tree" brings up 97 entries.
Unfortunately, none of those 97 hits is "To Fell a Tree", which
doesn't have a space after "tree". You can solve that problem by
searching on " tree", but then you get 530 hits, and ISFDB only shows
you the first 100. If you do an Advanced Search on " tree", you get to
see all the hits, but there are over 1900 of them, because Advanced
Search ignores the space.
I guess the trick is to search on likely phrases such as "the tree",
"a tree", "tree of", etc.; "a tree" gets only 26 hits, including of
course the one you're looking for. Wish I'd thought of that when
JimboCat posted his query.
Joseph Nebus
``So what happens in the book?''
``Dunno yet, I have to get the sequel so I can read the verb.''
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Van Pelt
Will DuPower <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
>a suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
There's a short story by Larry Niven in the "Draco's Tavern"
collection...
A Chirpsithra tells a human priest why the Chirpsithra will not
investigate any "Ultimate Questions of Life, the Universe, and
Everything"... one civilization they knew had obsessed over the
subject, searched, and apparently found somthing... and then
committed suicide, the entire species, gone, extinct. Everyone
since who has tried to figure out why either gives up in
bafflement, or likewise commits suicide, as does anyone they
communicated with before the suicide. So, the Chirpsithra have
very firmly decided they Do Not Want To Know.
<<<<< Spoiler >>>>>>
(rot13)
Gur Puvecfvguen jnf cebonoyl ylvat.
--
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in | Mike Van Pelt
the first place. Therefore, if you write the code | mvp at calweb.com
as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not | KE6BVH
smart enough to debug it. --- Brian W. Kernighan
Mike Van Pelt
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>A momentary side-glance in the webcomic _A Miracle of Science_:
>
>http://project-apollo.net/mos/mos137.html
>
>Note that in this story Mars (that is, all the humans on Mars)
>have become a group mind.
Another note about this webcomic -- it is a graphic novel
that is completed. No worries about waiting for the next
installment; the story is told, done, with an ending.
Pretty darn good story, too.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Mike Van Pelt <m...@web1.calweb.com> wrote:
>In article <i5e0mf$baj$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
>Will DuPower <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
>>novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps
>>a suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
>
>There's a short story by Larry Niven in the "Draco's Tavern"
>collection...
>
There was also a story, probably in Analog, where everyone had been immortal
for thousands of years, then one guy suicided (or got killed?) and since
everyone had these millenia-deep webs of personal relationships, the grief
just kept spreading and cascading as more and more of the immortals suicided
until everyone was gone..
Dan Goodman
Noted for future reference. Thanks.
Butch Malahide
> Butch Malahide wrote:
> > On Aug 31, 1:44 pm, "Dan Goodman" <dsg...@iphouse.com> wrote:
> > > JimboCat wrote:
> > > > > On Aug 30, 7:23 pm, Bill Snyder <bsny...@airmail.net> wrote:
> > > > > > I believe this is Robert F. Young's "To Fell a Tree."
>
> > > > Yep: that's it. ISFDB failed me. Search on Fiction Titles for
> > > > "trees" and it gives no result with only "tree". Search on
> > > > "tree" and it gives 1000 results including many, many with
> > > > "street" but no "tree". What's up with that?
>
> > > Put a space before and a space after "tree." Searching on " tree
> > > " rather than "tree" brings up 97 entries.
>
> > Unfortunately, none of those 97 hits is "To Fell a Tree", which
> > doesn't have a space after "tree". You can solve that problem by
> > searching on " tree", but then you get 530 hits, and ISFDB only
> > shows you the first 100. If you do an Advanced Search on " tree",
> > you get to see all the hits, but there are over 1900 of them,
> > because Advanced Search ignores the space.
>
> > I guess the trick is to search on likely phrases such as "the tree",
> > "a tree", "tree of", etc.; "a tree" gets only 26 hits, including of
> > course the one you're looking for. Wish I'd thought of that when
> > JimboCat posted his query.
>
> Noted for future reference. Thanks.
Ahasuerus, any chance of fixing the Advanced Search function on ISFDB
so it *doesn't* ignore terminal spaces in title searches? (Now, it
would *really* be nice if there was a way to tell it that the search
string is at the beginning or end of the title, or is the complete
title.)
Christopher Adams
>
> Dorothy is correct. My son read ACO for school last year, and his copy
> included the original ending. It's quite short and simple; there'd be
> nothing remarkable about it if it hadn't been omitted.
As I recall, basically: Alex is grown up now, over his ultraviolent
predilections, and is contemplating what it will be like if/when he has
a son and he grows up into a teenager. Can the cycle be broken, etc.
--
Christopher Adams
Sydney, Australia
http://cataclysmicevents.blogspot.com/
j...@xmission.com
> In article <pu7n76pmf16rh4pnq...@4ax.com>,
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 02:31:07 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>> Heydt) wrote:
>>
>>>>> Consider how _A Clockwork Orange_ originally (and eventually in a
>>>>> new edition) had a final chapter in which the protagonist has
>>>>> grown up a bit, is working for a living and thinking of getting
>>>>> married. The editor of the original publication demanded that it
>>>>> be removed because it made the novel too upbeat.
>>>> Interesting. I think I like the original ending - because it is much
>>>> nastier than what I read.
>>> Really?
>> It depends on how it was written. Since it hasn't been published, we
>> can only guess. It could be similar to the "happy" ending of 1984.
>
> I believe it *was* published. I haven't, you understand, read
> it; but I read about a revised edition with the missing chapter
> restored. I would google for it but I just woke up.
>
Burgess said that the original contained 21 chapters. US publishers
omitted chapter 21 until 1986. Wikipedia agrees with this, and gives
references.
Richard Todd
> Richard Todd <rmt...@ichotolot.servalan.com> wrote:
>>Oh yeah. From PR #900 or so on, the Arkonides are back as a non-trivial power
>>in the galaxy, and much of PR#2000-2099 involves the Arkonides having
>>conquered and occupied several of the colonial worlds of the League of Free
>>Terrans, and the Arkonides even have possession of Terra itself for a while.
>
> Just as a side note, this tends to reinforce the "Americans are wimps" view -
> we get antsy when a series ends up going as long as thirteen books! Two
> THOUSAND and ninety-nine? Forget it...
>
> Dave "granted, that particular one has taken a couple decades to do so" DeLaney
Over 4 decades, actually; PR started in 1961. I think that may make it the
longest-running SF fictional universe ever; even Doctor Who only dates back
to '63, and there've been gaps in the production of DW.
Also, an individual PR installment is only 60 pages or so, ~30000 words last
time I checked an issue, so not as big as a more conventional SF book.
When Forry Ackerman was doing the US edition of PR, he padded them out to
then-standard paper book sizes by throwing in reprints of various random
old SF stories that caught his fancy, which was always kinda interesting.
Still, the PR series as a whole adds up to a sizable pile of fiction. Even
just looking at the "Silberbaende" reprints (smallish hardback book form
factor reprint collections of several PR stories per volume, with some
condensation of the storyline) there's something like 100 of those in print,
and the Silberbaende haven't even gotten to PR #1000 yet.
Paul Ciszek
In article <216af1bb-5187-4e82...@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>And Damon Knight, being Damon Knight, used that title for a story in which
>> >>>the human race came to an end because a prudish woman refused to have sex.
>>
>> >> As in, "I wouldn't sleep with you if you were the last man on
>> >> earth"?
>>
>> >Or "I wouldn't let you bang me (etc.)".
>>
>> Am I recalling the wrong story, or hadn't he already got that agreement and
>> what, in fact, she wouldn't do was come into the "Men's" restroom to get
>> him when he was stricken with paralysis?
>
>You remember right.
To give the woman (and Damon Knight) more credit: The woman had been a
nurse, and dealing with the plague that wiped out humanity and the isolation
afterwards had been so traumatic that her mind had regressed to her teenage
self. When the last man on earth had an attack of paralysis in front of
her on an earlier occasion, her mature self re-emerged and she administered
the palative (unlike her, he wasn't immune, and the palative was not a cure),
but the rest of the time she was a prudish teenager. When the guy had an
attack in the Men's room, he realized that her training was not going to kick
in this time, as she couldn't see him--and the prudish teenager would never
think to go into the Men's room looking for him.
--
Please reply to: | "The anti-regulation business ethos is based on
pciszek at panix dot com | the charmingly naive notion that people will not
Autoreply is disabled | do unspeakable things for money." -Dana Carpender
Kurt Busiek
>
> In article <216af1bb-5187-4e82...@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
> Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> And Damon Knight, being Damon Knight, used that title for a story in which
>>>>>> the human race came to an end because a prudish woman refused to have sex.
>>>
>>>>> As in, "I wouldn't sleep with you if you were the last man on
>>>>> earth"?
>>>
>>>> Or "I wouldn't let you bang me (etc.)".
>>>
>>> Am I recalling the wrong story, or hadn't he already got that agreement and
>>> what, in fact, she wouldn't do was come into the "Men's" restroom to get
>>> him when he was stricken with paralysis?
>>
>> You remember right.
>
> To give the woman (and Damon Knight) more credit: The woman had been a
> nurse, and dealing with the plague that wiped out humanity and the isolation
> afterwards had been so traumatic that her mind had regressed to her teenage
> self. When the last man on earth had an attack of paralysis in front of
> her on an earlier occasion, her mature self re-emerged and she administered
> the palative (unlike her, he wasn't immune, and the palative was not a cure),
> but the rest of the time she was a prudish teenager. When the guy had an
> attack in the Men's room, he realized that her training was not going to kick
> in this time, as she couldn't see him--and the prudish teenager would never
> think to go into the Men's room looking for him.
I don't know about Knight, but is it giving the character more credit
to say that she didn't make a reasoned choice at any time, just a
conditioned emotional response?
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com — for all your Busiek needs!
Paul Ciszek
In article <i5keah$qhu$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
When the plague hit, she worked her ass off trying to keep people alive.
Afterwards, she went insane, and we are dealing with a "crazy person" plot.
In contrast to how most people remember the story--prudish woman won't
enter a Men's room to save the life of the last man on earth--it is both
more realistic, and portrays the woman as a competent adult who was driven
insane by the death of everyone else on earth rather than as a scatterbrain.
David DeLaney
>>A momentary side-glance in the webcomic _A Miracle of Science_:
>>
>>http://project-apollo.net/mos/mos137.html
>>
>>Note that in this story Mars (that is, all the humans on Mars)
>>have become a group mind.
>
>Another note about this webcomic -- it is a graphic novel
>that is completed. No worries about waiting for the next
>installment; the story is told, done, with an ending.
>
>Pretty darn good story, too.
The writers have begun another project, at
http://project-apollo.net/ab/index.html , but it's not anywhere near done yet.
It's fairly well started, though.
Dave
Mike Ash
nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
If I were the man, I would never leave the sight of the woman, given
that setup. Was his doing so justified? I remember the story, but not
well enough to remember whether that was addressed.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Mike Schilling
news:588b98c9-789e-44a0...@f6g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Unfortunately, none of those 97 hits is "To Fell a Tree"
Which is pidgin for "pair of trees".
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
She wouldn't stay within eyeshot of him while he went to the bathroom!
In fact if he had originally said he wouldn't use the Men's room she'd
have insisted on it, given the way she was portrayed.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Michael Stemper
>I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
>but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
>is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
>plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
>novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
>suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
"Shock Treatment" by Lee Harding portrays mankind as gradually dwindling,
due to not caring or something. At least, that's what the editor's note
in _New Writings in SF 8_ says.
Even though I just read it Sunday, I can't recall anything from the
story. Like just about everything in that book (except "Robot's Dozen"),
it was pretty muddled and unclear.
In a similar vein, as far as I can tell, is "The Machine Stops", by
E. M. Forster. (I say "afaict" because of the muddled nature of "Shock
Treatment". "Machine" was understandable, if dreary.)
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
trag
> On Aug 29, 9:08 am, "Will DuPower" <nee...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
> > but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
> > is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
> > plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
> > novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
> > suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
>
> it's entirely possible I was the one who didn't give a
> shit by then.
I think in Titan, civilization on Earth did end in a bang from a
redirected asteroid or comet, IIRC. It ended in a whimper for the
point-of-view characters.
trag
> In article <i5kdsl$3a...@reader1.panix.com>,
> nos...@nospam.com (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
Yeah. They're the last people on Earth. Why doesn't he just use the
woman's room? It's not like there's anyone to walk in on him, or for
him to walk in on.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
Doesn't matter who's room it is, *she* is not going to share it with
him when he's doing his business. That's the psychological setup.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"We all recall that the difference between a computer salesman and a car
salesman is that the car salesman *knows* he's lying to you"
"... and probably knows how to drive"
- F O'Donnell and M Smith, in afs
Mike Van Pelt
David DeLaney <d...@vic.com> wrote:
>Mike Van Pelt <m...@web1.calweb.com> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>>A momentary side-glance in the webcomic _A Miracle of Science_:
>
>The writers have begun another project, at
>http://project-apollo.net/ab/index.html , but it's not anywhere near done yet.
>It's fairly well started, though.
I kind of bounced off of it after a dozen or so installments.
I keep thinking I ought to go back and give it another try,
perhaps there's now enough of the story to get me hooked.
none Chuk Goodin
Ha. I had to read that three times.
--
chuk
(formerly cgo...@sfu.ca)
Lynn McGuire
> but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
> is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
> plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
> novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
> suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
Wasn't the Earth eaten by runaway nano machine gulpers in
"Echoes of Earth" by Shane Williams ?
http://www.amazon.com/Echoes-Earth-Sean-Williams/dp/0441008925/
"The artificial intelligences have reached self-awareness and followed
their own agenda, destroying the Earth and Venus to build the beginning
of a Dyson sphere around the sun. The eruption of AI has almost wiped
out the biological intelligences and only about 3 million are left. "
Lynn
David McMillan
> The title, both of the story and of the post, echo the last lines
> of T. S. Eliot's "The Hollow Men":
>
> This is the way the world ends
> This is the way the world ends
> This is the way the world ends
> Not with a bang but a whimper.
Now, a question for the group at large: does Dorothy actually secretly
play Halo, or does Cortana read T. S. Elliot?
David McMillan
> I've read a fair amount of sf stories in which the world ends with a bang,
> but what about stories where the world ends in a 'whimper?' Whimper-geddon
> is supposed to include things like climate change, population crash and
> plagues. I am looking for something more specific. Are there stories or
> novels where civilizations die from existential despair, or perhaps a
> suicide plague, or even 'not giving a sh*t.'
Well, Shirley someone has mentioned Clarke's "The Ninety Billion
(million?) Names of God", yes? Of course, that one doesn't end the
*world,* and there's no despair or angst going on... but it's definitely
The End. Quiet and without any fuss....
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>>> Unfortunately, none of those 97 hits is "To Fell a Tree"
>>
>>Which is pidgin for "pair of trees".
>
>Ha. I had to read that three times.
Could you explain it?
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison