Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan, and modern rip-off fantasy.

Matt Ador

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May 20, 2002, 2:11:12 PM5/20/02

to

I just wondered if anyone else was of the opinion that most modern
epic fantasy is derived from another work of slightly less modern
fantasy. For instance:

Tolkien started it all.
Terry Brooks borrowed numerous elements of Lotr in the first Shannara
book.
Robert Jordan ripped off several ideas from David Eddings.
Terry Goodkind rips off both Jordan and Brooks to an almost
lawsuit-deserving degree.

That said, I like all of the above except eddings.

Thoughts?

Hugh Bothwell

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May 20, 2002, 2:49:10 PM5/20/02

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"Matt Ador" <annoyi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1bedf1ad.02052...@posting.google.com...

> I just wondered if anyone else was of the opinion that most modern
> epic fantasy is derived from another work of slightly less modern
> fantasy. For instance:

Well, as derivation is the topic, I found these
quotes by searching http://www.bartleby.com/
for 'nothing new' ;-)

There is nothing new in the world except the
history you do not know.
Harry S. Truman

New inventions can and will be made; however,
nothing new can be thought of that concerns moral
man. Everything has already been thought and said
which at best we can express in different forms and
give new expressions to.
Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe

Shakespeare, Balzac, Homer have all written about
the same things, and if they had lived one thousand
or two thousand years longer, the publishers
wouldn't have needed anyone since.
William Faulkner

Troyce

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May 20, 2002, 2:24:00 PM5/20/02

to

In article <1bedf1ad.02052...@posting.google.com>, annoyi...@yahoo.com (Matt Ador) wrote:
>I just wondered if anyone else was of the opinion that most modern
>epic fantasy is derived from another work of slightly less modern
>fantasy. For instance:
>
>Tolkien started it all.
>Terry Brooks borrowed numerous elements of Lotr in the first Shannara
>book.
>Robert Jordan ripped off several ideas from David Eddings.
>Terry Goodkind rips off both Jordan and Brooks to an almost
>lawsuit-deserving degree.

I agree completely. Time was writers drew their inspiration from older myths
and legends, as did Tolkien. Then the generation after him drew their
inspiration from Tolkien, giving us works that are nothing more than
watered-down Tolkien. We're now at a generation who draw from watered-down
Tolkien as a source.

This is not to say there aren't good writers out there with a fresh outlook
who write original stuff. They are just being buried by the watered-down
generic fantasy writers because that's what many publishers are pushing. They
may say they want something new and original, but watch them try to put a
dragon on the cover anyway.

Troyce

William T. Hyde

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May 20, 2002, 3:52:49 PM5/20/02

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"Hugh Bothwell" <hugh_b...@hotmail.com> writes:

> "Matt Ador" <annoyi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1bedf1ad.02052...@posting.google.com...
> > I just wondered if anyone else was of the opinion that most modern
> > epic fantasy is derived from another work of slightly less modern
> > fantasy. For instance:
>
>
> Well, as derivation is the topic, I found these
> quotes by searching http://www.bartleby.com/
> for 'nothing new' ;-)
>
>
> There is nothing new in the world except the
> history you do not know.
> Harry S. Truman

Following which he said, "pardon me while
I nuke Japan".

>
> New inventions can and will be made; however,
> nothing new can be thought of that concerns moral
> man. Everything has already been thought and said
> which at best we can express in different forms and
> give new expressions to.
> Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe

Following which protestors threw paint on
his new fur coat.

>
> Shakespeare, Balzac, Homer have all written about
> the same things, and if they had lived one thousand
> or two thousand years longer, the publishers
> wouldn't have needed anyone since.
> William Faulkner

Well, you've got me on that one, but
since Balzac was born over a thousand
years ago, we are now in the 2800s and
I am owed a trillion dollars or so in
social security. My next amazon order
will simply be a "yes".

William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University

Visi.net

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May 20, 2002, 5:42:26 PM5/20/02

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Oh may god man!

How can you even compare Eddings and Jordan???

Eddings is the most pathetic fantasy writer I've ever come across. He isn't
even original enough to rip off someone elses ideas!

His series are literally copies of each other with newly generated locations
and names. It's the same damn ridiculous quest all over again!

"Matt Ador" <annoyi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1bedf1ad.02052...@posting.google.com...

Matt Ador

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May 20, 2002, 5:43:29 PM5/20/02

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Okay, true. But when using an old idea, it's possible to put a new
spin on it that will make it less recognizable. In general, this is
not true of these books. Specifically Goodkind. While he claims not
to read fantasy, he-

-has an order of female magic users who are supposed to serve the
creator, but a significant fraction of them are serving a ruthless and
powerful devil-like being in an attempt to free it from its
otherworldly prison in order to rule the world. They also capture
male magic-users. All of this the 'Sisters of the Light' have in
common with Aes Sedai.

-has magic-users enslaved by seamless collars. he calls them
rada'Han- Jordan called them a'dam.

-has a sword forged by an ancient, powerful, and now-dead group of
magic-users that utilizes the power of truth in its magic. It's
diferent from the Sword of Shannara, but is as obviously derived from
it as west Side Story is from Romeo and Juliet.

-has a young woman that sees auras and visions around other people,
but often does not fully understand them. In Sword of Truth, she is
Jebra- Jordan called her Min.

-has a good horse named Bella. For God's sake. i mean, really.

This goes a little beyond 'no new ideas.' You can steal ideas, okay-
but at least do it from enough different sources that- well, okay.
I'm ranting now. I'd rather hear more of others' opinions on this.

A.C.

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May 20, 2002, 5:40:27 PM5/20/02

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"Matt Ador" <annoyi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1bedf1ad.02052...@posting.google.com...

> Tolkien started it all.
> Terry Brooks borrowed numerous elements of Lotr in the first Shannara
> book.

The first Shannara book was almost a straight retelling of LotR. I actually
liked it (as a kid, haven't read it in years), and like most EFP it makes
decent young adult fiction, but very little was original.

> Robert Jordan ripped off several ideas from David Eddings.

And a lot more from Frank Herbert.

> Terry Goodkind rips off both Jordan and Brooks to an almost
> lawsuit-deserving degree.

Couldn't even get through the one book I tried.

> That said, I like all of the above except eddings.

I liked Eddings the first time around (again, I was quite young), but his
later books were almost completely unreadable.

--
nomadi...@hotmail.com | http://nomadic.simspace.net
"Thus let me live, unheard, unknown/thus unlamented let me dye;/Steal from
the world, and not a stone/Tell where I lye." -- Alexander Pope

@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge

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May 20, 2002, 5:40:02 PM5/20/02

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On 20 May 2002 11:11:12 -0700, annoyi...@yahoo.com (Matt Ador)
wrote:

>I just wondered if anyone else was of the opinion that most modern
>epic fantasy is derived from another work of slightly less modern
>fantasy. For instance:

First of all, let me congratulate you on your startlingly original
observation.

>Tolkien started it all.

You might wish to thumb through some books called "The Prose Edda", by
Snorri Sturluson, and "The Volsunga Saga", authorship unknown, and get
back to us.

>Terry Brooks borrowed numerous elements of Lotr in the first Shannara
>book.
>Robert Jordan ripped off several ideas from David Eddings.
>Terry Goodkind rips off both Jordan and Brooks to an almost
>lawsuit-deserving degree.
>
>That said, I like all of the above except eddings.
>
>Thoughts?

I think you should probably expand your literary horizons a bit.

Nathan Brunner

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May 20, 2002, 8:27:52 PM5/20/02

to

Okay... Haven't read Goodkind or Brooks (yet) so can't comment there.

Eddings... I tried. I honestly tried. But I'm a fan of subtle foreshadowing,
and Eddings does his with a sledgehammer. I think I made it through the
first book, but I've blocked most of it.

Jordan... I used to really like Jordan. I still kinda like Jordan. And in
his defense, he does still borrow from older mythos (for example... Band of
the Red Hand -- anyone else read Irish mythology? Anyone?) That said...

Kill off some freakin' secondary characters, for the love of all things
holy!!!

Though I doubt that's an original gripe. ;P

I'm rather fond of the Aurian books by Maggie Furey, myself, though it's
hard to find them these days.

Meghan Brunner
www.faire-folk.com

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 21, 2002, 1:18:30 AM5/21/02

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On Mon, 20 May 2002 18:24:00 GMT, twi...@nospam.ag-eco.tamu.edu
(Troyce) wrote:

>This is not to say there aren't good writers out there with a fresh outlook
>who write original stuff. They are just being buried by the watered-down
>generic fantasy writers because that's what many publishers are pushing. They
>may say they want something new and original, but watch them try to put a
>dragon on the cover anyway.

Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
measurably better than issues without dragons.

I tend to think there are still original things one can do with
dragons, in any case.

--

The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 4/15/02
My latest novel is THE DRAGON SOCIETY, published by Tor.

Htn963

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May 21, 2002, 3:55:13 AM5/21/02

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Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:

>Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
>you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
>measurably better than issues without dragons.

Not to me. Anything with dragons on the cover or title is an immediate
turn-off. Which is why I haven't read your books.

>I tend to think there are still original things one can do with
>dragons, in any case.

Let me know of a good recipe.

--
Ht

|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 21, 2002, 12:03:33 PM5/21/02

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On 21 May 2002 07:55:13 GMT, htn...@cs.com (Htn963) wrote:

>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
>>Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
>>you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
>>measurably better than issues without dragons.
>
> Not to me. Anything with dragons on the cover or title is an immediate
>turn-off. Which is why I haven't read your books.

Oh, right, of course. I've had dragons on the covers of three out of
twenty-eight books, so of course you obviously didn't read any of the
twenty-eight.

You don't happen to be typical; ask the folks at REALMS.

James Nicoll

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May 21, 2002, 12:13:02 PM5/21/02

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In article <pduG8.742$_L....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
>you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
>measurably better than issues without dragons.

This thread suggests a _Golfing for Cats_ approach, where the
outside of the book is carefully crafted to present the most popular
cover aspects in the genre. _Golfing for Cats_ was, I think, an anthology
of comic essays but the author had done some research and discovered that
the three things which consistantly sell well were Nazis, golf and cats so
he gave the book that title and had a big swastika on the cover. I think
the author missed a bet by neglecting garden or cooking porn but as far
as I recall the book sold ok.

So, the title and cover have to include a dragon. Any other
good ideas for the outside of the book?

I prefer SF but in SF a dragon might be a ship, a person, some sort
of predatory deep space entity or something else. Easy enough to use in
any setting.

Helgi Briem

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May 21, 2002, 12:15:01 PM5/21/02

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On Tue, 21 May 2002 16:03:33 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>On 21 May 2002 07:55:13 GMT, htn...@cs.com (Htn963) wrote:
>
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>
>>>Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify
>>>that for you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover
>>> sell measurably better than issues without dragons.
>>
>> Not to me. Anything with dragons on the cover or title is an
>>immediate turn-off. Which is why I haven't read your books.
>
>Oh, right, of course. I've had dragons on the covers of three out of
>twenty-eight books, so of course you obviously didn't read any of the
>twenty-eight.
>
>You don't happen to be typical; ask the folks at REALMS.

I'm the same way as Htn. Dragons turn me off, so I've
only read about 15 of your books and I can't remember
seeing any with dragons on the cover. I would probably
read them if I saw them in the library, but not buy them.

(Not that I haven't read lots of books with dragons
on the covers. Turning me off isn't enough to stop
me reading stuff.)
--
Regards, Helgi Briem
helgi AT decode DOT is

Milamber

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May 21, 2002, 1:23:33 PM5/21/02

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Hi, all the things that are said here are true, but if Jordan, or Eddings,
or Christopher Tolkien doesn't mind, if those guys don't react, then why do
you?

Milamber

annoyi...@yahoo.com (Matt Ador) wrote in
news:1bedf1ad.02052...@posting.google.com:

Vlatko Juric-Kokic

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May 21, 2002, 2:30:23 PM5/21/02

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On Mon, 20 May 2002 18:24:00 GMT, twi...@nospam.ag-eco.tamu.edu
(Troyce) wrote:

>I agree completely. Time was writers drew their inspiration from older myths
>and legends, as did Tolkien. Then the generation after him drew their
>inspiration from Tolkien, giving us works that are nothing more than
>watered-down Tolkien. We're now at a generation who draw from watered-down
>Tolkien as a source.

I blame hype and hollywoodisation of SF for such attitude.

*Not* all contemporary epic fantasy derives from Tolkien. Consider
George Martin and _A Song of Ice and Fire_, consider Sean Stewart and
_Nobody's Son_, consider John Barnes and _One for the Morning Glory_,
consider Jo Walton and _King's Peace/Name_, consider Patricia Wrede
and her "Dragon" series for kids. All of these books were written
after Tolkien, they are contemporary to Brooks, Jordan, Goodkind, but
not a single one of them suffers from the crap found in the Tolkien
EFP derivatives. _American Gods_ (which has it flaws, but is actually
a use of Nordic myths Tolkien used) is not a watered-down version of
Tolkien. Guy Kay with _Fionavar Tapestry_ drew heavily from the same
well, but didn't create blandless Tolkien-immitating EFP pap.

vlatko (who has an agenda against books like WoT)
--
_Neither Fish Nor Fowl_
http://www.webart.hr/nrnm/eng/
http://www.michaelswanwick.com/
vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr

Sean O'Hara

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May 21, 2002, 4:36:43 PM5/21/02

to

Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
> Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
> you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
> measurably better than issues without dragons.
>

Does it have to specifically be a dragon? If the artist spiced things
up by using a gryphon, or chimera, or one of those pterodactyl-things
from "Lord of the Rings," would it make a difference?

Personally, I want more giant spiders on covers. And a Shantak -- or
at least a Shoggoth.

--
Sean O辿ara
"Took up a noble cause called the Clone Wars
Cuz life's not all about girls and cars and
Getting f***ed up in f***ed up bars."
--MC Chris, "Fett's Vette" http://www.mcchris.com

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 21, 2002, 5:14:10 PM5/21/02

to

On Tue, 21 May 2002 16:36:43 -0400, Sean O'Hara
<darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote:

>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>
>> Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
>> you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
>> measurably better than issues without dragons.
>>
>Does it have to specifically be a dragon? If the artist spiced things
>up by using a gryphon, or chimera, or one of those pterodactyl-things
>from "Lord of the Rings," would it make a difference?

I dunno; the REALMS staffer who provided my data didn't say.
Apparently it doesn't matter how big the dragon is, or whether it's
European or Chinese, so probably a wyvern or something would do fine,
but I don't know about gryphons or whatever. Unicorns, if I remember
correctly (which is not a sure thing; it's been three or four years),
do not work.

>Personally, I want more giant spiders on covers. And a Shantak -- or
>at least a Shoggoth.

Shantak? Don't recognize that one. Shuggoths and giant spiders are
cool, though. I have no idea whether they affect sales.

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 21, 2002, 5:15:05 PM5/21/02

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On Tue, 21 May 2002 16:15:01 GMT, he...@decode.is (Helgi Briem) wrote:

>I'm the same way as Htn. Dragons turn me off, so I've
>only read about 15 of your books and I can't remember
>seeing any with dragons on the cover. I would probably
>read them if I saw them in the library, but not buy them.

The three with "Dragon" in the title had dragons on the cover -- THE
BLOOD OF A DRAGON, DRAGON WEATHER, and THE DRAGON SOCIETY.

Nathan Brunner

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May 21, 2002, 5:31:36 PM5/21/02

to

>>Unicorns, if I remember correctly (which is not a sure >>thing; it's been
three or four years), do not work.

Interesting. Now, I, personally, would be more apt to check out a book with
a unicorn on a cover -- but that would only get me through the initial
once-over of the interior. Books like _Song of Sorcery_ did unicorns well.
There are many, many more who just put a unicorn in because in their
opinion, one must have a unicorn to be fantasy.

I guess that's a personal pick-ick of mine. I love seeing "fantasy"
creatures in fantasy, but I like for there to be a reason for them to be
there... not just a gratuitous author drop-in.

Meghan Brunner
www.faire-folk.com

A.C.

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May 21, 2002, 6:05:20 PM5/21/02

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"Nathan Brunner" <nbru...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Y0zG8.13217$Le2.5...@typhoon.mn.ipsvc.net...

Hmmm, the presence of a unicorn on the cover would dissuade me even more
than the presence of a dragon.

Brunner

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May 21, 2002, 7:32:35 PM5/21/02

to

Out of curiosity, what do you like to see on your covers, those of you who
aren't persuaded by unicorns and dragons?

Meghan Brunner
www.faire-folk.com

A.C. <nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote in message
news:AwzG8.43205$6c7.10...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...

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May 21, 2002, 8:17:25 PM5/21/02

to

"Sean O'Hara" <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote in
message news:3CEAE035...@myrealbox.com...

> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 21 May 2002 16:36:43 -0400, Sean O'Hara
> > <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
> > >> you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
> > >> measurably better than issues without dragons.
> > >>
> > >Does it have to specifically be a dragon? If the artist spiced things
> > >up by using a gryphon, or chimera, or one of those pterodactyl-things
> > >from "Lord of the Rings," would it make a difference?
> >
> > I dunno; the REALMS staffer who provided my data didn't say.
> > Apparently it doesn't matter how big the dragon is, or whether it's
> > European or Chinese, so probably a wyvern or something would do fine,
> > but I don't know about gryphons or whatever. Unicorns, if I remember
> > correctly (which is not a sure thing; it's been three or four years),
> > do not work.
> >
> I don't know why, but I associate unicorns with romance novels
> dressed up as fantasy.

I just associate books with a unicorn as a variant of the horsey wish
fulfillment stuff.
--

rr...@lmi.net

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May 21, 2002, 8:45:09 PM5/21/02

to

On Mon, 20 May 2002 18:24:00 GMT, twi...@nospam.ag-eco.tamu.edu
(Troyce) wrote:

>I agree completely. Time was writers drew their inspiration from older myths
>and legends, as did Tolkien. Then the generation after him drew their
>inspiration from Tolkien, giving us works that are nothing more than
>watered-down Tolkien. We're now at a generation who draw from watered-down
>Tolkien as a source.
>
>This is not to say there aren't good writers out there with a fresh outlook
>who write original stuff. They are just being buried by the watered-down
>generic fantasy writers because that's what many publishers are pushing. They
>may say they want something new and original, but watch them try to put a
>dragon on the cover anyway.
>
>Troyce

Well, couldn't some of this be just a matter of the time frame? I
mean, I am sure that there was a lot of really bad music written at
the same time that Brahms, Bach, and all of them were writing music.
But the centuries between now and then have allowed the bad things to
drop out. I'm not entirely sure when Tolkien was writing, or how many
other authors were writing fantasy at that time, but is it possible
that Tolkien was buried by the generic writers of _his time as well?

Rebecca

Dan Goodman

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May 21, 2002, 9:26:10 PM5/21/02

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km...@funk.apple.com (Karl Elvis MacRae) wrote in
news:acelns$b4m$1...@news.apple.com:

> In article <IfeG8.65$p3....@sydney.visi.net>,
> Visi.net <bbq...@visi.net> wrote:
>>Oh may god man!
>>
>>How can you even compare Eddings and Jordan???
>>
>>Eddings is the most pathetic fantasy writer I've ever come across. He
>>isn't even original enough to rip off someone elses ideas!
>
> Um. And that's different than Jordan - how?

Jordan has written some interesting scenes, buried in _The Flat Tire of
Time_.

Eddings has managed one, that I've encountered.

rr...@lmi.net

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May 21, 2002, 9:48:13 PM5/21/02

to

Have you tried Simon Green's _Blue Moon Rising? It's got a unicorn
with a good reason for it. :)

Rebecca

Chris Kuan

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May 21, 2002, 11:16:04 PM5/21/02

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"Nathan Brunner" <nbru...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<Y0zG8.13217$Le2.5...@typhoon.mn.ipsvc.net>...

> there... not just a gratuitous author drop-in.

Maybe the short story "Unicorn Variations" by Zelazny? It became the
title for an anthology (which ISTR also featured dragons via "The
George Incident" or a story of very similar title).

--
Chris

Richard Horton

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May 21, 2002, 11:55:02 PM5/21/02

to

On Tue, 21 May 2002 21:14:10 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 21 May 2002 16:36:43 -0400, Sean O'Hara
><darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
>
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>>
>>> Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
>>> you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
>>> measurably better than issues without dragons.
>>>
>>Does it have to specifically be a dragon? If the artist spiced things
>>up by using a gryphon, or chimera, or one of those pterodactyl-things
>>from "Lord of the Rings," would it make a difference?
>
>I dunno; the REALMS staffer who provided my data didn't say.
>Apparently it doesn't matter how big the dragon is, or whether it's
>European or Chinese, so probably a wyvern or something would do fine,
>but I don't know about gryphons or whatever. Unicorns, if I remember
>correctly (which is not a sure thing; it's been three or four years),
>do not work.

_Realms_ certainly seems to go for covers featuring hot women in
unconvincing armor -- I would have thought those would be the top
sellers.

I mean, I like dragon covers fine -- indeed, I thought the cover for
_Dragon Weather_ was excellent -- but cute women appeal quite a bit as
well.

--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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May 22, 2002, 12:31:40 AM5/22/02

to

On Wed, 22 May 2002 03:55:02 GMT, Richard Horton
<rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 21 May 2002 21:14:10 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
>>>> you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
>>>> measurably better than issues without dragons.
>>

>>Apparently it doesn't matter how big the dragon is, or whether it's
>>European or Chinese, so probably a wyvern or something would do fine,
>>but I don't know about gryphons or whatever. Unicorns, if I remember
>>correctly (which is not a sure thing; it's been three or four years),
>>do not work.
>
>_Realms_ certainly seems to go for covers featuring hot women in
>unconvincing armor -- I would have thought those would be the top
>sellers.

I'm sure they don't hurt; I'd guess the _combination_ of an armored
chick and a dragon is optimum.

>I mean, I like dragon covers fine -- indeed, I thought the cover for
>_Dragon Weather_ was excellent -- but cute women appeal quite a bit as
>well.

They sure do; I've picked up a few books because of the woman on the
cover. Especially ones with covers by Michael Whelan.

Incidentally, I liked the cover art for _The Dragon Society_ better
than _Dragon Weather_, but I'm certainly not going to complain about
either one.

Kate Nepveu

unread,

May 22, 2002, 12:38:00 AM5/22/02

to

Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:

[cover subjects and sales]

>> Unicorns, if I remember
>> correctly (which is not a sure thing; it's been three or four years),
>> do not work.

> I don't know why, but I associate unicorns with romance novels
> dressed up as fantasy.

Does anyone know if the reissues of Pamela Dean's Secret Country
trilogy will have the same floofy unicorn covers? I hope not;
yes, there are unicorns, but it doesn't really give you a sense of
what the books are like to have unicorns on the cover.

Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- kate....@yale.edu
Paired Reading Page; Book Reviews; Outside of a Dog: A Book Log
"I awoke this morning with devout thanksgiving for my friends."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

Joseph Nebus

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May 22, 2002, 2:35:55 AM5/22/02

to

Richard Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> writes:

>On Tue, 21 May 2002 21:14:10 GMT, Lawrence Watt-Evans
><lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>I dunno; the REALMS staffer who provided my data didn't say.
>>Apparently it doesn't matter how big the dragon is, or whether it's
>>European or Chinese, so probably a wyvern or something would do fine,

>>but I don't know about gryphons or whatever. [...]

>_Realms_ certainly seems to go for covers featuring hot women in
>unconvincing armor -- I would have thought those would be the top
>sellers.
>I mean, I like dragon covers fine -- indeed, I thought the cover for
>_Dragon Weather_ was excellent -- but cute women appeal quite a bit as
>well.

Now I can't help wondering what the sales figures are like for
cute dragon women in unconvincing armor on unicorns with gryphon pets,
and a robot in a beam of transcendental light nearby.

Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I think I read that story, but remember nothing of it.

Robert Carnegie

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May 22, 2002, 5:41:43 AM5/22/02

to

"Nathan Brunner" <nbru...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<Y0zG8.13217$Le2.5...@typhoon.mn.ipsvc.net>...

A unicorn implies a virgin, I think. Not sure today which is
more mythical :-)

Htn963

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May 22, 2002, 6:50:36 AM5/22/02

to

Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:

>On 21 May 2002 07:55:13 GMT, htn...@cs.com (Htn963) wrote:
>
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>
>>>Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
>>>you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
>>>measurably better than issues without dragons.
>>
>> Not to me. Anything with dragons on the cover or title is an immediate
>>turn-off. Which is why I haven't read your books.
>
>Oh, right, of course. I've had dragons on the covers of three out of
>twenty-eight books, so of course you obviously didn't read any of the
>twenty-eight.

Evidently, your three dragon books were enough to turn me off from reading
*any* of your books. They gave the impression you were just another EFP hack.
But to be fair, the only books of yours I've ever encountered, in the stores or
the libraries, were those dragon books.

>You don't happen to be typical; ask the folks at REALMS.

Why the hell would I want to be typical?

Konrad Gaertner

unread,

May 22, 2002, 11:07:19 AM5/22/02

to

James Nicoll wrote:
>
> In article <pduG8.742$_L....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Dragons sell. The magazine REALMS OF FANTASY can quantify that for
> >you -- they've found that issues with dragons on the cover sell
> >measurably better than issues without dragons.
>
> This thread suggests a _Golfing for Cats_ approach, where the
> outside of the book is carefully crafted to present the most popular
> cover aspects in the genre. _Golfing for Cats_ was, I think, an anthology
> of comic essays but the author had done some research and discovered that
> the three things which consistantly sell well were Nazis, golf and cats so
> he gave the book that title and had a big swastika on the cover. I think
> the author missed a bet by neglecting garden or cooking porn but as far
> as I recall the book sold ok.
>
> So, the title and cover have to include a dragon. Any other
> good ideas for the outside of the book?

Half-naked elf chicks with cat familiars riding dragons and blowing
up spaceships full of tentacled monsters while unicorns and
hippogriffs frolic in sylvan glades.

On the off chance this combination wasn't mentioned last time we had
this discussion, I'll take full credit for it.

--
Konrad Gaertner gae...@aol.com
"Don't break the writer's brain. You can't get more [...] books
if you break the writer's brain." --Louann Miller on rasfw

Mary K. Kuhner

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May 22, 2002, 11:33:23 AM5/22/02

to

Kate Nepveu <kate....@yale.edu> wrote:

>Does anyone know if the reissues of Pamela Dean's Secret Country
>trilogy will have the same floofy unicorn covers? I hope not;
>yes, there are unicorns, but it doesn't really give you a sense of
>what the books are like to have unicorns on the cover.

I love those books, but the problem of choosing appropriate covers,
and even worse, cover descriptions for them makes me cringe. I
can't think of anything where describing the externalities would
do a poorer job of indicating why the books are worth reading.
It's not just the unicorns, it's the game-becomes-real aspect.

What covers would you put on them?

Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com

erilar

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May 22, 2002, 12:32:14 PM5/22/02

to

In article <nOAG8.13232$Le2.5...@typhoon.mn.ipsvc.net>, "Brunner"
<nbru...@attbi.NOTHERE.com> wrote:

> Out of curiosity, what do you like to see on your covers, those of you who
> aren't persuaded by unicorns and dragons?

How about some connection to the contents of the bood? Naaaaa...

That said, I will pick up and look at any book with a dragon on it; I
like dragons 8-)

--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)

Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo

Karl Elvis MacRae

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May 22, 2002, 12:45:35 PM5/22/02

to

In article <Xns9215D0C37AB...@209.98.98.13>,

Ok, yes, a few. But looking at the ratio of good stuff to dreck that
is _the broken record of time_, it's still a net of *totally sucks*.

Which is a shame. The first 7 or 8 books could be neatly compressed
to about one 600 page novel and not lose a single one of the good scenes,
but his excess is getting worse and worse.

>Eddings has managed one, that I've encountered.

I read 1.25 eddings books. I leared not to read eddings books.

-Karl, currently slogging through "the farseer" and starting to wish
he hadn't.

David Eppstein

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May 22, 2002, 1:09:08 PM5/22/02

to

In article <erilarloFRY-8BB0...@news.airstreamcomm.net>,
erilar <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote:

> That said, I will pick up and look at any book with a dragon on it; I
> like dragons 8-)

Books like _The Dragon Waiting_ or _The Dragon Never Sleeps_?
To be fair, my copy of TDNS has no dragon pictures on its cover,
and the only one on TDW looks like a stone gargoyle or something...

--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/

artyw

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May 22, 2002, 2:05:38 PM5/22/02

to

"
> Hmmm, the presence of a unicorn on the cover would dissuade me even more
> than the presence of a dragon.

How about a cover of a unicorn impaling a dragon?
FWIW, I liked Michael Bishop's Unicorn Mountain in which unicorns
appear on the TV show "Wild Kingdom." I dont remember whether there is
an actual unicorn on the cover though.

Lee Ann Rucker

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May 22, 2002, 2:57:25 PM5/22/02

to

In article <nebusj.1...@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>, Joseph Nebus
<neb...@rpi.edu> wrote:

> Now I can't help wondering what the sales figures are like for
> cute dragon women in unconvincing armor on unicorns with gryphon pets,
> and a robot in a beam of transcendental light nearby.

If I thought the author could pull it off, I'd buy it. Zelazny might
have been able to do it - maybe Brust or Gaiman?

McCaffrey might get a cover like that - ewww.

unread,

May 22, 2002, 6:00:20 PM5/22/02

to

Milamber <yupp...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9215C5879D...@195.238.3.180>...
> Hi, all the things that are said here are true, but if Jordan, or Eddings,
> or Christopher Tolkien doesn't mind, if those guys don't react, then why do
> you?
>
> Milamber
>

Well, I like complaining, I like arguing, and i couldn't think of
another literary topic. But beyond that, a writer sort of has an
obligation to that audience. when you pick up a book, you want
something new, or at least an attempt at newness. It's like reading
one of those movie novelizations where the author got nifty ideas that
weren't in the script, and ruined it for you. it's also true that
many of these people have excellent exposition, and a few highly
original ideas, so it's dissapointing when they turn out work that
appears to be below the level they've shown themselves able to work
at.

Matt Ador

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May 22, 2002, 6:03:07 PM5/22/02

to

"Visi.net" <bbq...@visi.net> wrote in message news:<IfeG8.65$p3....@sydney.visi.net>...

> Oh may god man!
>
> How can you even compare Eddings and Jordan???
>
> Eddings is the most pathetic fantasy writer I've ever come across. He isn't
> even original enough to rip off someone elses ideas!
>

> His series are literally copies of each other with newly generated locations
> and names. It's the same damn ridiculous quest all over again!
>

True, mostly. But there are parts of Jordan that are quite similar to
Eddings- Grolim shadow magic vs. Myrdraal, for starters. Mysterious
voices speaking into the head of a young man who is the umpteenth to
fight an epic battle against an evil being who is imprisoned and/or
asleep. that sort of thing.

Mary K. Kuhner

unread,

May 22, 2002, 6:07:31 PM5/22/02

to

In article <et1oeug6h4g1a7lia...@news.cis.dfn.de>,

Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> wrote:
>On 22 May 2002 15:33:23 GMT, mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu
>(Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:

>>It's not just the unicorns, it's the game-becomes-real aspect.

>>What covers would you put on them?

>Umm, something like a game character stepping from the computer
>screen? If it's that kind of game.

>Anyway, definitely something with opposite fore- and back-ground in
>the image.

It's not a computer game; it's marginally an RPG, but on the end
of the spectrum close to amateur theatrics, not wargames. But
I'd shudder to do anything on the cover to suggest this, or the
books will get mentally shelved with _Quag Keep_ and _Guardians of
the Flame_ and the Bradley whose title I've forgotten. And this
won't work well, because they aren't likely to appeal to the same
readers.

Like I said, they're books whose externalities are very poor
indications of their appeal. Game-becomes-real stories are
on the whole wish-fulfillment stories or else deconstructions
of wish-fulfillment (e.g. the parts of _Guardians_ where fantasy
world life proves nasty, brutal and short). _The Secret Country_
is about something else, perhaps the relationship between
creator and created. It doesn't work as wish-fulfillment. It
emphasizes the wrong parts.

I think, on consideration, I'd stick to the unicorn and castle, or
better, the unicorn and stained glass of the second book.

Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com

Karl M. Syring

unread,

May 22, 2002, 6:23:01 PM5/22/02

to

"Matt Ador" <annoyi...@yahoo.com> schrieb

Gilgamesch, it does not possibly get any older and there is an adaption by
Silverberg, me thinks.

Karl M. Syring

Silvered Glass

unread,

May 22, 2002, 7:04:45 PM5/22/02

to

22 May 2002 22:07:31 GMT,

mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
wrote:

>In article <et1oeug6h4g1a7lia...@news.cis.dfn.de>,
>Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> wrote:
>>On 22 May 2002 15:33:23 GMT, mkku...@kingman.genetics.washington.edu
>>(Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
>
>>>It's not just the unicorns, it's the game-becomes-real aspect.
>
>>>What covers would you put on them?
>
>>Umm, something like a game character stepping from the computer
>>screen? If it's that kind of game.
>
>>Anyway, definitely something with opposite fore- and back-ground in
>>the image.
>
>It's not a computer game; it's marginally an RPG, but on the end
>of the spectrum close to amateur theatrics, not wargames.

It's what happens to a 'game' like cops and robbers when the
kids are old enough for it to start becoming sophisticated.
In _The Secret Country,_ they're playing fantasy. My
brother and I did something like it at similar ages with
space opera, except that we never found the entrance to the
secret Martian base under the hill, alas.

>I'd shudder to do anything on the cover to suggest this, or the
>books will get mentally shelved with _Quag Keep_ and _Guardians of
>the Flame_ and the Bradley whose title I've forgotten. And this
>won't work well, because they aren't likely to appeal to the same
>readers.
>
>Like I said, they're books whose externalities are very poor
>indications of their appeal.

<snip>

Yes.

I would not have expected to like _The Secret Country_ based
on a cursory description of it, even though it's among my
prized possessions. But the titles are appealing ...

I think I actually bought _The Hidden Land_ first -- the
cover was more interesting -- and didn't read it until I'd
also bought _The Secret Country._ It was pretty much a
speculative buy -- every once in a while I buy a book that
doesn't look quite like my thing to see if I'll be
pleasantly surprised. I was *very* pleasantly surprised, in
this instance.

Right at the moment, I can't think of a good way to
illustrate the point that the books are laced with
Shakespeare quotations and other poetry. But that probably
would have attracted my attention favourably.

I really wish Pamela Dean wrote faster.

J.B. Moreno

unread,

May 22, 2002, 7:50:49 PM5/22/02

to

Htn963 wrote:
> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
>> On 21 May 2002 07:55:13 GMT, htn...@cs.com (Htn963) wrote:

-snip-

>>> Not to me. Anything with dragons on the cover or title is an
>>> immediate turn-off. Which is why I haven't read your books.
>>
>> Oh, right, of course. I've had dragons on the covers of three out of
>> twenty-eight books, so of course you obviously didn't read any of the
>> twenty-eight.
>
> Evidently, your three dragon books were enough to turn me off
> from reading *any* of your books. They gave the impression you were
> just another EFP hack. But to be fair, the only books of yours I've
> ever encountered, in the stores or the libraries, were those dragon
> books.

All three of the books are relatively recent (and one of them is still only
available in hardcover), so I think you have to come up with another excuse.

But anyone that passes over _With a Single Spell_ or _The Misenchanged
Sword_ because of the cover on another book, deserves what they get.

>> You don't happen to be typical; ask the folks at REALMS.
>
> Why the hell would I want to be typical?

What does "want" have to do with it?

--
J.B. Moreno

Thomas Yan

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May 22, 2002, 10:50:20 PM5/22/02

to

Silvered Glass <silvere...@mail.comCLIPME> wrote:

-snip discussion of appropriate cover art for The Secret Country_

>
> I think I actually bought _The Hidden Land_ first -- the
> cover was more interesting -- and didn't read it until I'd
> also bought _The Secret Country._ It was pretty much a
> speculative buy -- every once in a while I buy a book that
> doesn't look quite like my thing to see if I'll be
> pleasantly surprised. I was *very* pleasantly surprised, in
> this instance.

You have read the 3rd book, _The Whim of the Dragon_, I trust?

-snip-

> I really wish Pamela Dean wrote faster.

Yes, but on the other hand, maybe spacing them out makes it easier to
engage in mega-discussions.

Now that I've read all the Liavek shared world books, I'm looking
forward to her Liavek novel, which last I heard (maybe a year ago?!) was
going to be her next book.

I also hope that inspiration will soon strike, and she'll do her sequel
to _The Dubious Hills_ and TSC trilogy.

Silvered Glass

unread,

May 22, 2002, 11:01:30 PM5/22/02

to

On Wed, 22 May 2002 22:50:20 -0400, ty...@twcny.rr.com
(Thomas Yan) wrote:

>Silvered Glass <silvere...@mail.comCLIPME> wrote:
>
>-snip discussion of appropriate cover art for The Secret Country_
>>
>> I think I actually bought _The Hidden Land_ first -- the
>> cover was more interesting -- and didn't read it until I'd
>> also bought _The Secret Country._ It was pretty much a
>> speculative buy -- every once in a while I buy a book that
>> doesn't look quite like my thing to see if I'll be
>> pleasantly surprised. I was *very* pleasantly surprised, in
>> this instance.
>
>You have read the 3rd book, _The Whim of the Dragon_, I trust?
>
>-snip-

Yeah. It was regrettably difficult to find.

>> I really wish Pamela Dean wrote faster.
>
>Yes, but on the other hand, maybe spacing them out makes it easier to
>engage in mega-discussions.
>
>Now that I've read all the Liavek shared world books, I'm looking
>forward to her Liavek novel, which last I heard (maybe a year ago?!) was
>going to be her next book.

I liked those too.

>I also hope that inspiration will soon strike, and she'll do her sequel
>to _The Dubious Hills_ and TSC trilogy.

Yup.

Joe Jefferson

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May 23, 2002, 12:36:15 AM5/23/02

to

Brunner wrote:
>
> Out of curiosity, what do you like to see on your covers, those of you who
> aren't persuaded by unicorns and dragons?

The title and author, a brief ACCURATE rundown of the story's premise. A
picture that actually has something to do with the book is nice too. Or,
failing that, a pretty girl. The one thing I don't want to see is blurbs
from other famous people telling how much they loved the book. Since I
don't know what kinds of stories those other people enjoy, knowing that
they liked this one tells me nothing useful.

--
Joe of Castle Jefferson
http://www.mindspring.com/~jjstrshp
Site Updated November 25th, 2001

"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the
poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the
hand of the wicked." - Psalm 82:3-4

T. M. Wagner

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May 23, 2002, 1:04:40 AM5/23/02

to

In article <fcd1f4e4.02052...@posting.google.com>,
art...@yahoo.com (artyw) wrote:

> > Hmmm, the presence of a unicorn on the cover would dissuade me even more
> > than the presence of a dragon.
>
> How about a cover of a unicorn impaling a dragon?

There ya go!

T.M. Wagner
http://www.sfreviews.net/

T. M. Wagner

unread,

May 23, 2002, 1:07:01 AM5/23/02

to

In article <3CEBB47A...@worldnet.att.net>,
Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

> Half-naked elf chicks with cat familiars riding dragons and blowing
> up spaceships full of tentacled monsters while unicorns and
> hippogriffs frolic in sylvan glades.

Please, don't give Baen Books any ideas!

T.M. Wagner
http://www.sfreviews.net/

_ berge @hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge

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May 23, 2002, 2:36:00 AM5/23/02

to

On Thu, 23 May 2002 00:23:01 +0200, "Karl M. Syring"
<syr...@email.com> wrote:

>"Matt Ador" <annoyi...@yahoo.com> schrieb

>> > I think you should probably expand your literary horizons a bit.
>>
>> I read a lot more than just epic fantasy- but I'm always open to
>> suggestions. anything else you recommend?

<shrug> I like Robert Holdstock's Mythago Wood stories, especially
the first one, though I doubt that qualifies as epic fantasy. I'm not
fond of most of Moorcock's output, but his Von Beck books are pretty
good, especially the first one, "The Warhound And The World's Pain".

The genre of "assorted group of stereotypes with swords search for
powerful plot token while wandering around a landscape" is pretty much
played out, as far as I'm concerned.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Berge
(remove spaces for address)

Therefore since the world has still
Much good, but much less good than ill,
I'd face it as a wise man would,
o_ \ > And train for ill and not for good.
<| ' ,_|
___/_>____o)____ - A.E. Housman, "A Shropshire Lad"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin Soederstroem

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May 23, 2002, 8:40:46 AM5/23/02

to

On 22 May 2002 11:05:38 -0700, art...@yahoo.com (artyw) wrote:

>> Hmmm, the presence of a unicorn on the cover would dissuade me even more
>> than the presence of a dragon.
>
>How about a cover of a unicorn impaling a dragon?

I would prefer a dragon with a limp unicorn in its jaws.
--
Martin
I hate it when people put political statements in their sigs.
The only thing that is worse is when they put quotation marks
around something they made up themselves.

Jo Walton

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May 23, 2002, 10:43:07 AM5/23/02

to

On 22 May 2002 15:33:23 GMT, Mary K. Kuhner

I would put a kid dressed up as Hamlet, with a blanket cloak, holding a
real skull, by a real grave, (with worms and things) and a fantasy landscape
background (with dragons and unicorns as necessary, but I'd like the house at
One Trumpet Street if possible) and the kid looking at the skull with an
expression of dawning responsibility.

This isn't something in the book, but it would be a cover.

Jo

David Eppstein

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May 23, 2002, 12:33:21 PM5/23/02

to

In article <slrnaepvg3...@localhost.localdomain>,
blu...@vif.com (Jo Walton) wrote:

> I would put a kid dressed up as Hamlet, with a blanket cloak, holding a
> real skull, by a real grave, (with worms and things) and a fantasy landscape
> background (with dragons and unicorns as necessary, but I'd like the house at
> One Trumpet Street if possible) and the kid looking at the skull with an
> expression of dawning responsibility.
>
> This isn't something in the book, but it would be a cover.

I'd buy a second copy just for that cover.

Brunner

unread,

May 23, 2002, 12:43:30 PM5/23/02

to

> The title and author, a brief ACCURATE rundown of the >story's premise.

I guess I meant the front of the book -- I think we all (?) generally like
that sort of information -- on the back. Or the inside flaps, if it's a
hardbound.

>A picture that actually has something to do with the book >is nice too.

Always a plus.

>The one thing I don't want to see is blurbs from other >famous people
telling how much they loved the book.

Agreed. That annoys the crap out of me. If I scorn that sportstar
endorsement crap on TV for tennis shoes, why should I want it on the front
of my book? It just makes me think that they don't trust me to figure out if
it's good on my own.

Or that the book wouldn't sell with a fameous name on the front.

Meghan Brunner
www.faire-folk.com

unread,

May 23, 2002, 3:45:21 PM5/23/02

to

Martin Soederstroem wrote:
>
> On 22 May 2002 11:05:38 -0700, art...@yahoo.com (artyw) wrote:
>
> >> Hmmm, the presence of a unicorn on the cover would dissuade me even more
> >> than the presence of a dragon.
> >
> >How about a cover of a unicorn impaling a dragon?
>
> I would prefer a dragon with a limp unicorn in its jaws.

unread,

May 23, 2002, 7:33:31 PM5/23/02

to

In article <3CEC71BE...@mindspring.com>, Joe Jefferson
<jjst...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Brunner wrote:
> >
> > Out of curiosity, what do you like to see on your covers, those of you
> > who
> > aren't persuaded by unicorns and dragons?
>
> The title and author, a brief ACCURATE rundown of the story's premise. A
> picture that actually has something to do with the book is nice too. Or,
> failing that, a pretty girl. The one thing I don't want to see is blurbs
> from other famous people telling how much they loved the book. Since I
> don't know what kinds of stories those other people enjoy, knowing that
> they liked this one tells me nothing useful.

What a lovely fantasy! I'd like covers like that, too.

--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)

Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo

Avram Grumer

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May 23, 2002, 11:46:06 PM5/23/02

to

In article <slrnaepvg3...@localhost.localdomain>,
blu...@vif.com (Jo Walton) wrote:

Or maybe the house in the foreground, and a fantasy-type castle visible
on a hill in the background.

--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to
stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt

rr...@lmi.net

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May 24, 2002, 2:01:22 AM5/24/02

to

On Wed, 22 May 2002 21:36:15 -0700, Joe Jefferson
<jjst...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>Brunner wrote:
>>
>> Out of curiosity, what do you like to see on your covers, those of you who
>> aren't persuaded by unicorns and dragons?
>
>The title and author, a brief ACCURATE rundown of the story's premise. A
>picture that actually has something to do with the book is nice too. Or,
>failing that, a pretty girl.

Please remember that not all SF readers are male. If we are going to
put random pretty girls on the cover, can we at least balance it out
with some handsome guys?

Rebecca

Steve Taylor

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May 24, 2002, 9:01:19 AM5/24/02

to

"Karl M. Syring" wrote

> What is a Gigamesh and what does Lem say about it? Does he own one?

First of all, _A Perfect Vacuum_ is a book of reviews of nonexistent
books, so be warned.

_Gigamesh_, one of the books reviewed, is to _Finnegans Wake_ as
_Finnegans Wake_ is to _Peter Rabbit_ - it's been written, with
extensive computer assistance to be 100% allusions, references, wordplay
and obscure trilingual puns. It's a book no human could ever have
written without mechanical asistance, and it's also pretty much beyond
the bounds of human readability.

_A Perfect Vacuum_ is great fun. Though I don't enjoy Lem's fiction
much, his essays really impress me. My favourite entry in that volume is
_Non Serviam_, a nobel prize acceptance speech for AI which (none too
subtly) accuses God of being monsterously cruel and immoral.

> Karl M. Syring

Steve

A.C.

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May 24, 2002, 11:28:22 AM5/24/02

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<rr...@lmi.net> wrote in message news:3ceed5fa...@nntp.lmi.net...

> Please remember that not all SF readers are male. If we are going to
> put random pretty girls on the cover, can we at least balance it out
> with some handsome guys?

NO!

Next question.

Martin Soederstroem

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May 24, 2002, 12:01:38 PM5/24/02

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On Fri, 24 May 2002 06:01:22 GMT, rr...@lmi.net wrote:

>Please remember that not all SF readers are male. If we are going to
>put random pretty girls on the cover, can we at least balance it out
>with some handsome guys?

Sure! Here your go, one pretty, almost nekked girl and one hunky,
almost nekked hunk.

http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/delany/203/gor23.htm
http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/delany/203/gor24.htm

Just what you were asking for!

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May 24, 2002, 9:06:37 PM5/24/02

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On 24 May 2002 16:42:33 -0400, wds...@panix.com (William December
Starr) wrote:

"Empress Catherine the Great was burned alive in a bizarre accident in
the dragon roost . . ."

--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]

chris

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May 25, 2002, 6:36:08 AM5/25/02

to

In article <eooseu49noftu85r1...@4ax.com>, Martin
Soederstroem <Mart...@privat.utfors.se> is alleged to have written

>On Fri, 24 May 2002 06:01:22 GMT, rr...@lmi.net wrote:
>
>>Please remember that not all SF readers are male. If we are going to
>>put random pretty girls on the cover, can we at least balance it out
>>with some handsome guys?
>
>Sure! Here your go, one pretty, almost nekked girl and one hunky,
>almost nekked hunk.
>
>http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/delany/203/gor23.htm
>http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/delany/203/gor24.htm
>
>Just what you were asking for!

It's good to see sexual equality making it's mark in SF

:)

--
chris

"It's a funny kind of month, October. For the really keen cricket fan it's when
you discover that your wife left you in May" - Denis Norden

Karl M. Syring

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May 25, 2002, 2:02:50 PM5/25/02

to

"chris" <chris...@ntlworld.com> schrieb

> In article <eooseu49noftu85r1...@4ax.com>, Martin
> Soederstroem <Mart...@privat.utfors.se> is alleged to have written
> >On Fri, 24 May 2002 06:01:22 GMT, rr...@lmi.net wrote:
> >
> >>Please remember that not all SF readers are male. If we are going to
> >>put random pretty girls on the cover, can we at least balance it out
> >>with some handsome guys?
> >
> >Sure! Here your go, one pretty, almost nekked girl and one hunky,
> >almost nekked hunk.
> >
> >http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/delany/203/gor23.htm
> >http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/delany/203/gor24.htm
> >
> >Just what you were asking for!
>
> It's good to see sexual equality making it's mark in SF

Hmmh, most women seem to be deeply appalled by such such stuff. The thought
of the stinking leather diapers is just too much.

Karl M. Syring

Robert Carnegie

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May 25, 2002, 6:21:07 PM5/25/02

to

"Karl M. Syring" <syr...@email.com> wrote in message news:<acojvt$r2olg$1...@ID-7529.news.dfncis.de>...

> "chris" <chris...@ntlworld.com> schrieb
> > In article <eooseu49noftu85r1...@4ax.com>, Martin
> > Soederstroem <Mart...@privat.utfors.se> is alleged to have written
> > >On Fri, 24 May 2002 06:01:22 GMT, rr...@lmi.net wrote:
> > >
> > >>Please remember that not all SF readers are male. If we are going to
> > >>put random pretty girls on the cover, can we at least balance it out
> > >>with some handsome guys?
> > >
> > >Sure! Here your go, one pretty, almost nekked girl and one hunky,
> > >almost nekked hunk.
> > >
> > >http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/delany/203/gor23.htm
> > >http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/delany/203/gor24.htm
> > >
> > >Just what you were asking for!

Man, the guy in #24 must be twice as tall as the girl.
_That_ isn't natural (well, maybe if Gor has different
gravity). I don't even want to look at the other cover.

> > It's good to see sexual equality making it's mark in SF
>
> Hmmh, most women seem to be deeply appalled by such such stuff.
> The thought of the stinking leather diapers is just too much.

Okay, so we should make it pictures of hunky men who do their
own laundry which they picked up themselves from the bedroom
floor. Kind of tricky to get all of that concept across in
one cover picture, but: staircase, goblins swarming upwards
surprise Conan the Barbarian who is descending with sword
in one hand and laundry basket in the other. He is pictured
with enraged expression, the basket raised high ready to hurl
down on their heads -

But, damn, if _every_ cover has to follow that format exactly,
it's too strict.

How about: lit redly from below, Conan balances perilously on a
single rope strung across a fiery volcanic chasm, and he is
clutching a handful of garments, some of which are already
slung onto the rope line to dry out?

Conan by in the blacksmith's forge, the firelight glinting
from his sweaty muscled arms, heating the flat side of his
broadsword for use, a leather jockstrap laid out on the
ironing-table by his side together with a flagon of starch
water?

Robert Carnegie

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May 25, 2002, 6:29:36 PM5/25/02

to

Martin Soederstroem <Mart...@privat.utfors.se> wrote in message news:<o1aqeuc77b6jo2nde...@4ax.com>...

> From memory: "If Wagner wrote novels, this is what it would be like."
> Can you guess the novel that got that recommendation? I forget the
> author who made it.

If the author _likes_ Wagner.

Karl M. Syring

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May 25, 2002, 6:53:23 PM5/25/02

to

"Robert Carnegie" <rja.ca...@excite.com> schrieb

The read hot sword blade burned a gaping hole into his diapers. Enraged by
the pain and the stinging stink of burning leather, Conan unstrapped his
jockstraps and submerged them into the water of the cauldron standing right
besides of the anvil. The work of untold generations of bugs producing
lactic, butyric and propionic acid raised from the tortured leather into the
air of the forge, forming a baleful, suffocating fog.

... to be continued
Karl M. Syring

Anne M. Marble

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May 26, 2002, 12:00:41 PM5/26/02

to

Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> >
> I don't know why, but I associate unicorns with romance novels
> dressed up as fantasy.

Yeah, Theodore Sturgeon's "E Pluribus Unicorn" was my favorite romance
novel. ;->

I try to avoid giving up on a novel because of fantasy creatures (or
whatever) on the cover. The ways of marketing departments are perverse and
yet predictable. They know a lot of people will pick it up because of the
unicorn or dragon. They will lose some people who will avoid unicorns and
dragons, but until someone comes up with psychic book covers that reflect
what the browser wants to see, they have to go for what's popular. (Have
there been any stories about psychic book covers, by the way?...)

Besides, there are plenty of fantasy novels about unicorns that aren't
romantic or cute or wish-fulfillment (or if they have any of those
elements, do them within a literate context). There are plenty of fantasy
novels about dragons that aren't typical dragon fantasy. (Insert obligatory
mentions of "Tea with the Black Dragon" and "The Iron Dragon's Daughter.")
There are plenty more stories to be told about unicorns and dragons, and
not all of those stories suck.

There is a reason why mythic creatures became mythic creatures. I do wish,
though, that more mythic creatures ended up in stories and on covers now
and then. A great picture of a basilisk should draw in more readers than a
poorly done unicorn cover -- might turn the browser to stone, though. :-<
(Now _that_ would be bad marketing...)

Lee Ann Rucker

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May 26, 2002, 1:17:05 PM5/26/02

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In article <HsyH8.1219$AF3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
<how...@brazee.net> wrote:

> On 24-May-2002, rr...@lmi.net wrote:
>
> > Please remember that not all SF readers are male. If we are going to
> > put random pretty girls on the cover, can we at least balance it out
> > with some handsome guys?
>

> Women tend to purchase more rationally than men do.

In SF maybe, but have you looked at romance novel covers?

erilar

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May 26, 2002, 2:30:36 PM5/26/02

to

In article <260520021017059181%lru...@mac.com>, Lee Ann Rucker
<lru...@mac.com> wrote:

Some of us women are so turned off by romance novel covers as to miss
the .01% that might be readable....

erilar

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May 26, 2002, 2:29:10 PM5/26/02

to

In article <VC7I8.39$7Q1....@news.abs.net>, "Anne M. Marble"
<ama...@abs.net> wrote:

>
> There is a reason why mythic creatures became mythic creatures. I do wish,
> though, that more mythic creatures ended up in stories and on covers now
> and then. A great picture of a basilisk should draw in more readers than a
> poorly done unicorn cover -- might turn the browser to stone, though. :-<
> (Now _that_ would be bad marketing...)
>

Nice if it turned some of those people who pick dumb covers to stone,
though... But how would the artist be able to paint one without turning
to stone???

Anne M. Marble

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May 26, 2002, 3:15:41 PM5/26/02

to

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> Okay, so we should make it pictures of hunky men who do their
> own laundry which they picked up themselves from the bedroom
> floor. Kind of tricky to get all of that concept across in
> one cover picture, but: staircase, goblins swarming upwards
> surprise Conan the Barbarian who is descending with sword
> in one hand and laundry basket in the other. He is pictured
> with enraged expression, the basket raised high ready to hurl
> down on their heads -

I like that. I think someone could write a fun story based on that image.
The hunky barbarian warrior tries to settle down, but those blasted goblins
won't let him alone, by Crom. And even if he wins the battle, goblin blood
stains are almost impossible to get out of the whites.

And let's not forget the other possibilities, Conan the Vegetarian, Conan
the Librarian, and Conan the Rotarian.

------
Holly Lisle's Forward Motion Writing Site
http://hollylisle.com/fm/

Jo Walton

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May 26, 2002, 4:14:26 PM5/26/02

to

On Sun, 26 May 2002 13:29:10 -0500, erilar
<erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote:
>In article <VC7I8.39$7Q1....@news.abs.net>, "Anne M. Marble"
><ama...@abs.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> There is a reason why mythic creatures became mythic creatures. I do wish,
>> though, that more mythic creatures ended up in stories and on covers now
>> and then. A great picture of a basilisk should draw in more readers than a
>> poorly done unicorn cover -- might turn the browser to stone, though. :-<
>> (Now _that_ would be bad marketing...)
>>
>Nice if it turned some of those people who pick dumb covers to stone,
>though... But how would the artist be able to paint one without turning
>to stone???

In a mirror.

And wouldn't that make a lovely story?

There's a terrific Peter Dickinson story about a basilisk in _Merlin Dreams_.

Jo

Vlatko Juric-Kokic

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May 26, 2002, 4:42:15 PM5/26/02

to

On Sun, 26 May 2002 13:29:10 -0500, erilar
<erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote:

>In article <VC7I8.39$7Q1....@news.abs.net>, "Anne M. Marble"
><ama...@abs.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> There is a reason why mythic creatures became mythic creatures. I do wish,
>> though, that more mythic creatures ended up in stories and on covers now
>> and then. A great picture of a basilisk should draw in more readers than a
>> poorly done unicorn cover -- might turn the browser to stone, though. :-<
>> (Now _that_ would be bad marketing...)
>>
>Nice if it turned some of those people who pick dumb covers to stone,
>though... But how would the artist be able to paint one without turning
>to stone???

Mirror, of course.

Dan Goodman

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May 26, 2002, 4:51:10 PM5/26/02

to

"Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> wrote in
news:UtaI8.840$7Q1....@news.abs.net:

Conan the Librarian has been done, though I don't know if it's been done
professionally.

Conan the Pacifist hasn't been done.

Dan Goodman

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May 26, 2002, 4:52:03 PM5/26/02

to

erilar <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote in
news:erilarloFRY-20BB...@news.airstreamcomm.net:

> In article <VC7I8.39$7Q1....@news.abs.net>, "Anne M. Marble"
> <ama...@abs.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> There is a reason why mythic creatures became mythic creatures. I do
>> wish, though, that more mythic creatures ended up in stories and on
>> covers now and then. A great picture of a basilisk should draw in
>> more readers than a poorly done unicorn cover -- might turn the
>> browser to stone, though. :-< (Now _that_ would be bad marketing...)
>>
> Nice if it turned some of those people who pick dumb covers to stone,
> though... But how would the artist be able to paint one without
> turning to stone???

Special glasses.

Or working from a photograph.

David T. Bilek

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May 26, 2002, 5:23:18 PM5/26/02

to

blu...@vif.com (Jo Walton) wrote:

This is the 21st century! A nice set of glossy photographs would be
both easier and less risky. Maybe the basilisk's agent could send
over some headshots...

-David

Brian D. Fernald

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May 26, 2002, 6:05:48 PM5/26/02

to

"Anne M. Marble" <ama...@abs.net> wrote in message
news:VC7I8.39$7Q1....@news.abs.net...

> Sean O'Hara <darkerthenightth...@myrealbox.com> wrote:
> > >
> > I don't know why, but I associate unicorns with romance novels
> > dressed up as fantasy.
>

<snip>

> There is a reason why mythic creatures became mythic creatures. I do wish,
> though, that more mythic creatures ended up in stories and on covers now
> and then. A great picture of a basilisk should draw in more readers than a
> poorly done unicorn cover -- might turn the browser to stone, though. :-<
> (Now _that_ would be bad marketing...)

Yes, 'there is a reason why mythic creatures became mythic creatures', but
in many ways it is the same reason that some can now associate unicorns
with romance novels.

A trope is nothing but a baby archetype.

--
Brian.
FSOBN.

David Silberstein

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May 27, 2002, 1:10:12 AM5/27/02

to

In article <VC7I8.39$7Q1....@news.abs.net>,

Anne M. Marble <ama...@abs.net> wrote:

> A great picture of a basilisk should draw in more readers than a
>poorly done unicorn cover -- might turn the browser to stone, though. :-<
>

Well, you've nothing to worry about - you're already Marble. :-)

Although as a Silver-Stone, I'm hardly one to talk.

Anne M. Marble

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May 27, 2002, 3:28:50 AM5/27/02

to

David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> Anne M. Marble <ama...@abs.net> wrote:
>
> > A great picture of a basilisk should draw in more readers than a
> >poorly done unicorn cover -- might turn the browser to stone, though.
:-<
>
> Well, you've nothing to worry about - you're already Marble. :-)

Ack! I fell right into that one! I must be losing my marbles. ;->
<ducks>

> Although as a Silver-Stone, I'm hardly one to talk.

As long as we don't have rocks in our heads.
<ducks even faster>