The JMS Wonder Woman Retcon
tphile
Below is the JMS quote about his Wonder Woman retcon/reboot or
whatever you want to call it.
Does anyone else find this origin plot familiar? It sounds a lot
like
King Arthur or Luke Skywalkers.
Parents and her people die in battle but the child escapes with a few
loyalist into exile or hiding.
To be raised and trained to fulfill her destiny
So far I am not that impressed with I have seen so far but not so
outraged as some have been.
Yes WW needed some shaking up preferably something like Ed Brubaker
with Captain America
instead of another amazon crisis.
The new costume doesn't really impress me.
and the plot sounds like a temporary elseworld plot similar to
Amalgam
or Age of Apocalypse. that can quickly be reset an any point
SPOILERS but not much of one
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With the new costume comes a new direction for the title: Thanks to
some time-shifting by the Olympian gods who created Wonder Woman, the
superheroine's history has been changed so she grew up in a modern,
urban environment, with little memory or conection to her mythical
origins.
"The Gods, for reasons of their own but which may have something to
with their survival and perhaps the survival of Earth itself, have
changed the timeline. In the new timeline, years ago the Gods removed
their protection from Paradise Island, and left it vulnerable to
attack," Straczynski shared in the press release. "And attacked it
was. Led by a dark figure, a veritable army descended upon the
Island,
equipped with weapons that could kill even the Amazons. Outgunned,
doomed, Hippolyta gave over her three-year-old daughter to a handful
of guardians who spirited her away as Hippolyta led one last
desperate
battle against the forces that had come to destroy all she had
created. In that final battle, she and most of the Amazons were
killed, though some managed to escape."
This new direction will also bring Wonder Woman into opposition with
new enemies.
"It’s now nearly twenty years later. Diana has been raised in an
urban
setting, but with a foot in both worlds. She has little or no memory
of the other timeline. She knows only what she’s been told by those
who raised her On the run, hunted, she must try to survive, help the
other refugee Amazons escape the army that is still after them,
discover who destroyed Paradise Island and why ... and if the
timeline
can be corrected or not," Straczynski wrote in DC's official
materials. "She also does not yet have access to her full powers, but
will be gaining them as she goes. Along the way, she will face a
range
of enemies — human and otherwise — who we have not seen before."
David Johnston
wrote:
>
>
> Below is the JMS quote about his Wonder Woman retcon/reboot or
>whatever you want to call it.
>Does anyone else find this origin plot familiar?
What I find most familiar about it, is that this must be the sixth
time a comic book writer has wiped out most of the population of that
island. I'm starting to think they don't like that place.
Brenda Clough
Ack, ick, ptoo.
I may have to blog about this, to lance the boil properly; it'll be on
Book View Cafe.
Brenda
Kurt Busiek
Amazons are like cockaroaches.
You have to pray for them, or they just come back.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com — for all your Busiek needs!
lal_truckee
>
> Straczynski wrote in DC's official
> materials. "She also does not yet have access to her full powers, but
> will be gaining them as she goes."
How very convenient - as she is threatened by Yet Another Super Badguy,
she can discover a new and somehow specific super-power perfectly suited
to defeat this particular YASB. That should allow just about any plot
device desired...
Joe Pfeiffer
>> discover who destroyed Paradise Island and why ... and if the
>> timeline
>> can be corrected or not," Straczynski wrote in DC's official
Can the timeline be corrected? My guess is yes....
--
As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should
be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
and this we should do freely and generously. (Benjamin Franklin)
Splicer
> "It's now nearly twenty years later. Diana has been raised in an
> urban
> setting, but with a foot in both worlds.
>
How gritty and oh so unique.
tphile
ACK I agree completely but please don't get me started with all thats
wrong with
the title starting with the Perez reboot.
and I still haven't forgiven JMS for Mrs Gwen Osborne.
Anyway
Her new origin resembles the classic Campbell hero archetype.
and as part of the trinity she is now like superman and batman an
orphan survivor of a very violent event. Raised by those memory
scars,
and foster parents. Batman had Alfred.
training and honing her skills for a quest. Batman was self taught,
she is getting trained by surviving amazons. Like Skywalker had
Kenobi and
Yoda.
Not sure yet how the rest of the DCU has changed with her.
who else does this sound like?
Perseus?
tphile
Brenda Clough
Girl Genius
Achilles
Theseus
Even modern-day imitators like Kim Jong-Il
Brenda
David Goldfarb
From what I hear, his original plot was to have those actually be
Peter Parker's children, and Norman Osborn being their father was
editorial interference.
--
David Goldfarb |"As an experimental psychologist I have been
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |trained not to believe anything unless it can be
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |demonstrated in the laboratory on rats or
|sophomores." -- Steven Pinker
Ken from Chicago
"Kurt Busiek" <ku...@busiek.com> wrote in message
news:i0lvaj$adf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Kurt, did you misspell "prey"?
Oh, and the new WW origin is standard archetypical Hero's origin and has
been used from Smallville to Buffy to The Powers of Matthew Star to Luke
Skywalker, of heroes with vast untapped potential they are unaware of, with
powerful mysterious forces after them and our heroes being mentored to reach
their maximum potential.
-- Ken from Chicago
William F. Adams
endless cycle of reboots since collapsing Earths 1, 2 S, &c. in
_Infinity Crisis_ --- by contrast Marvel has variety and meaning and
contrast in their multiverse and more importantly, a storyline which
one likes (e.g., Marvel Adventures) has a chance of surviving and
being expanded upon.
Oddly, of late, the animated story versions have been the best IMO.
Ken from Chicago
"tphile" <tph...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:91e66c26-1fa4-4a27...@g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 2, 6:54 pm, David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:09:00 -0700 (PDT), tphile <tph...@cableone.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Below is the JMS quote about his Wonder Woman retcon/reboot or
>> >whatever you want to call it.
>> >Does anyone else find this origin plot familiar?
>>
>> What I find most familiar about it, is that this must be the sixth
>> time a comic book writer has wiped out most of the population of that
>> island. I'm starting to think they don't like that place.
>
> ACK I agree completely but please don't get me started with all thats
> wrong with
> the title starting with the Perez reboot.
> and I still haven't forgiven JMS for Mrs Gwen Osborne.
Wrong Joe. It was the editor-in-chief, Joey Quesada who mixed Gwen having
Peter's kids--and substituted Norm "Green Goblin" Osborne.
> Anyway
> Her new origin resembles the classic Campbell hero archetype.
> and as part of the trinity she is now like superman and batman an
> orphan survivor of a very violent event. Raised by those memory
> scars,
> and foster parents. Batman had Alfred.
> training and honing her skills for a quest. Batman was self taught,
> she is getting trained by surviving amazons. Like Skywalker had
> Kenobi and
> Yoda.
> Not sure yet how the rest of the DCU has changed with her.
> who else does this sound like?
> Perseus?
>
>
> tphile
Smallville has Clark being chased by dark forces while learning to reach his
maximum potential.
Buffy was being chased by vampires, demons and monsters, while having a
Watcher train her to reach her potential.
The Powers of Matthew Star had Prince Matthew fleeing dark mysterious alien
forces from his home world to Earth with only his father's Royal Aide, to
train him to reach his potential--return home to free his planet.
Lord of the Rings had Aragorn in hiding from powerful dark forces while
having to learn his potential.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvenientlyAnOrphan
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomedHometown
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ToughLove
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"David Goldfarb" <gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:L4z9o...@kithrup.com...
> In article
> <91e66c26-1fa4-4a27...@g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
>>and I still haven't forgiven JMS for Mrs Gwen Osborne.
>
> From what I hear, his original plot was to have those actually be
> Peter Parker's children, and Norman Osborn being their father was
> editorial interference.
Exactly. People keep blaming the wrong Joe--in part because JMS took the
heat. It was about a year or so later in an interview it was revealed that
JoeQ had been behind it because JQ ***HAAAAAAATES*** the idea of Peter being
married, much less having kids. He much prefers single, high school or
college-aged Parker--and knew he would undo Parker's status quo, which the
presence of kids would make harder.
> --
> David Goldfarb |"As an experimental psychologist I have been
> gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |trained not to believe anything unless it can
> be
> gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |demonstrated in the laboratory on rats or
> |sophomores." -- Steven Pinker
Would Pinker believed it was demonstrated on Freshmen or Juniors?
-- Ken from Chicago
Kurt Busiek
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> said:
>
>
> "Kurt Busiek" <ku...@busiek.com> wrote in message
> news:i0lvaj$adf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On 2010-07-02 16:54:37 -0700, David Johnston <da...@block.net> said:
>>
>>> On Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:09:00 -0700 (PDT), tphile <tph...@cableone.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Below is the JMS quote about his Wonder Woman retcon/reboot or
>>>> whatever you want to call it.
>>>> Does anyone else find this origin plot familiar?
>>>
>>> What I find most familiar about it, is that this must be the sixth
>>> time a comic book writer has wiped out most of the population of that
>>> island. I'm starting to think they don't like that place.
>>
>> Amazons are like cockaroaches.
>>
>> You have to pray for them, or they just come back.
>
> Kurt, did you misspell "prey"?
"Spray."
> Oh, and the new WW origin is standard archetypical Hero's origin and
> has been used from Smallville to Buffy to The Powers of Matthew Star to
> Luke Skywalker, of heroes with vast untapped potential they are unaware
> of, with powerful mysterious forces after them and our heroes being
> mentored to reach their maximum potential.
Yes, those objecting to it presumably think the one Wondy had already
was more distinctive.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
Ken from Chicago
"Kurt Busiek" <ku...@busiek.com> wrote in message
news:i0nqpr$duc$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 2010-07-03 06:32:14 -0700, "Ken from Chicago"
> <kwicker1...@comcast.net> said:
>
>>
>>
>> "Kurt Busiek" <ku...@busiek.com> wrote in message
>> news:i0lvaj$adf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> On 2010-07-02 16:54:37 -0700, David Johnston <da...@block.net> said:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:09:00 -0700 (PDT), tphile <tph...@cableone.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Below is the JMS quote about his Wonder Woman retcon/reboot or
>>>>> whatever you want to call it.
>>>>> Does anyone else find this origin plot familiar?
>>>>
>>>> What I find most familiar about it, is that this must be the sixth
>>>> time a comic book writer has wiped out most of the population of that
>>>> island. I'm starting to think they don't like that place.
>>>
>>> Amazons are like cockaroaches.
>>>
>>> You have to pray for them, or they just come back.
>>
>> Kurt, did you misspell "prey"?
>
> "Spray."
Ah, that makes more sense.
>> Oh, and the new WW origin is standard archetypical Hero's origin and has
>> been used from Smallville to Buffy to The Powers of Matthew Star to Luke
>> Skywalker, of heroes with vast untapped potential they are unaware of,
>> with powerful mysterious forces after them and our heroes being mentored
>> to reach their maximum potential.
>
> Yes, those objecting to it presumably think the one Wondy had already was
> more distinctive.
Which "one" was that?
> kdb
> --
> Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"William F. Adams" <will...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c7d8880d-bb36-44fd...@j4g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
No, Marvel simply reboots INDIVIDUALS, from Doctor Strange, Magneto,
Professor X, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, etc. Tho they
are not above group resets, ala Heroes Reborn, and their parallel timeline
universes (e.g., Ultimate, 2099, Next, 1402, etc.).
Personally, I think they both should just embrace the full reboot on a
cyclical basis, roughly every decade, and incorporate it as part of the
overall storyline.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.dc.universe/msg/1ff313149f3d6111?hl=en
-- Ken from Chicago
Kurt Busiek
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> said:
> "Kurt Busiek" <ku...@busiek.com> wrote in message
> news:i0nqpr$duc$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> On 2010-07-03 06:32:14 -0700, "Ken from Chicago"
>> <kwicker1...@comcast.net> said:
>>
>>> Oh, and the new WW origin is standard archetypical Hero's origin and
>>> has been used from Smallville to Buffy to The Powers of Matthew Star to
>>> Luke Skywalker, of heroes with vast untapped potential they are unaware
>>> of, with powerful mysterious forces after them and our heroes being
>>> mentored to reach their maximum potential.
>>
>> Yes, those objecting to it presumably think the one Wondy had already
>> was more distinctive.
>
> Which "one" was that?
Don't be a nitpicker.
She may have had multiple origin tales in the past, but the bulk of
them are all variations of the same basic story. You know that, too --
you're just nitpicking because you apparently find the prospect of
trying to get me to type stuff you already know back at you to be
somehow entertaining.
I don't.
Paul Ciszek
>Her new origin resembles the classic Campbell hero archetype.
>and as part of the trinity she is now like superman and batman an
>orphan survivor of a very violent event. Raised by those memory
>scars,
>and foster parents. Batman had Alfred.
>training and honing her skills for a quest. Batman was self taught,
>she is getting trained by surviving amazons. Like Skywalker had
>Kenobi and
>Yoda.
>Not sure yet how the rest of the DCU has changed with her.
>who else does this sound like?
>Perseus?
According to Lord Raglan,
1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin.
2. His father is a king and
3. often a near relative of the mother, but
4. the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. he is also reputed to be the son of a god
6. at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7. He is spirited away, and
8. reared by foster-parents in a far country.
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. on reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
12. he marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. becomes king.
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. prescribes laws but
16. later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
17. is driven from from the throne and the city after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death
19. often at the top of a hill.
20. His children, if any, do not succeed him.
21. His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. he has one or more holy sepulchres.
--
Please reply to: | "The anti-regulation business ethos is based on
pciszek at panix dot com | the charmingly naive notion that people will not
Autoreply is disabled | do unspeakable things for money." -Dana Carpender
tphile
wrote:
> "David Goldfarb" <goldf...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
>
> news:L4z9o...@kithrup.com...
>
> > In article
> > <91e66c26-1fa4-4a27-86ac-93acd1d02...@g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> > tphile <tph...@cableone.net> wrote:
> >>and I still haven't forgiven JMS for Mrs Gwen Osborne.
>
> > From what I hear, his original plot was to have those actually be
> > Peter Parker's children, and Norman Osborn being their father was
> > editorial interference.
>
> Exactly. People keep blaming the wrong Joe--in part because JMS took the
> heat. It was about a year or so later in an interview it was revealed that
> JoeQ had been behind it because JQ ***HAAAAAAATES*** the idea of Peter being
> married, much less having kids. He much prefers single, high school or
> college-aged Parker--and knew he would undo Parker's status quo, which the
> presence of kids would make harder.
>
> > --
> > David Goldfarb |"As an experimental psychologist I have been
> > be
> > goldf...@csua.berkeley.edu |demonstrated in the laboratory on rats or
> > |sophomores." -- Steven Pinker
>
> Would Pinker believed it was demonstrated on Freshmen or Juniors?
>
> -- Ken from Chicago
Gwens life and the Sins Past storyline details can be found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwen_Stacy
so you don't have to go with just what I say
but be sure to consider this
JMS is a well known professional and veteran writer in the comic
industry
as well as other media. He is or should be familiar with the genre,
tropes,
cliches and other aspects of his craft. and he kept his name on the
writing
credits. The original idea of a pregnent gwen was his.
So he still bears responsibility for it and shares it. It cannot all
be blamed
on JQ and editorial meddling.
Thats disingenuous. If you are going to take credit for the good,
you should
take responsibility for the bad.
tphile
David DeLaney
So basically Rand al'Thor.
Dave "yes, yes, Jordan was doing that deliberately, but still" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Mike Schilling
Ken from Chicago
"Kurt Busiek" <ku...@busiek.com> wrote in message
news:i0o25r$8ia$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
No, I thought you might have had a favorite origin.
I prefer the movie origin of Superman from SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE, altho I do
like having the Kents staying alive from the John Byrne one.
> kdb
>
> --
> Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!
-- Ken from Chicago
Kurt Busiek
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> said:
That doesn't make any sense. You asked which one those objecting to the
change think was more distinctive, not which one is my favorite. I'm
not even one of the people objecting to the change, not having seen it.
Ken from Chicago
"tphile" <tph...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:99e63721-e91c-4986...@q12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
The furor wasn't that Gwen was pregnant but that Gwen *willingly* slept with
Norman Osborne. Even the illustrator thought that she was being raped as
reflected in the scenes in question.
> So he still bears responsibility for it and shares it. It cannot all
> be blamed
> on JQ and editorial meddling.
> Thats disingenuous. If you are going to take credit for the good,
> you should
> take responsibility for the bad.
>
> tphile
It wasn't a case of JMS trying to dodge the flack. He took the flack from
fans from weeks, months on end. It wasn't until after, much of the furor had
died down, about a year or so after the story that in con panel the subject
came up.
http://www.comicsbulletin.com/rage/111497451826808.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwen_Stacy#Sins_Past_and_Sins_Remembered
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756
-- Ken from Chicago
P.S. Then again, I'm sure many people would have been as, if not more,
furious at JMS if the storyline had been that Gwen had kept Peter in the
dark about his own kids for years had JMS' storyline had gone thru.
tphile
wrote:
> P.S. Then again, I'm sure many people would have been as, if not more,
> furious at JMS if the storyline had been that Gwen had kept Peter in the
> dark about his own kids for years had JMS' storyline had gone thru.-
Yeah, being dead all that time is just no excuse.
Damn that bitch
Though some clues should have shown up during the autopsy
tphile
Ken from Chicago
It wasn't a trick question. You had said those objecting to the change in
origin because they preferred the one she already had. I thought you were
including yourself among those objecting to the change in origin and was
merely asking which origin you had preferred. To include oneself with a
larger group is not uncommon, but in this case, my supposition was wrong.
I wasn't trying to pick a fight or to trick you. It was just a question.
-- Ken from Chicago (one of those objecting to the jacket, but not the
pants)
William F. Adams
wrote:
> "William F. Adams" <willad...@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:c7d8880d-bb36-44fd...@j4g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > In a nutshell, that's why I prefer Marvel to DC --- the latter's
> > endless cycle of reboots since collapsing Earths 1, 2 S, &c. in
> > _Infinity Crisis_ --- by contrast Marvel has variety and meaning and
> > contrast in their multiverse and more importantly, a storyline which
> > one likes (e.g., Marvel Adventures) has a chance of surviving and
> > being expanded upon.
>
> > Oddly, of late, the animated story versions have been the best IMO.
>
> No, Marvel simply reboots INDIVIDUALS, from Doctor Strange, Magneto,
> Professor X, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, etc. Tho they
> are not above group resets, ala Heroes Reborn, and their parallel timeline
> universes (e.g., Ultimate, 2099, Next, 1402, etc.).
>
> Personally, I think they both should just embrace the full reboot on a
> cyclical basis, roughly every decade, and incorporate it as part of the
> overall storyline.
I always liked the visits between contemporary heroes and retired
heroes of DC's Earth 1 and Earth 2 --- that's why I felt that should
have been continued and extended (Earth 3, 4, 5...) rather than wiping
out what went before.
I was looking forward to seeing Peter Parker and Mary Jane have a
child in the mainstream continuity.
I want to see Franklin Richards grow up in the mainstream continuity.
I don't mind reboots which are new, parallel universes (Marvel
Adventures is particularly well done), but I absolutely hate the
sliding scale timeline by which all events older than 7 years are
discarded from affecting character aging so that characters are
timeless and un-aging and never grow up.
I loathe retcons which change the nature of a character.
That's why I haven't bought a comic since X-Factor #1
William
James Nicoll
slow-of-wit moment on my part: I was watching the 1939 (?) MGM WIZARD OF
OZ and was struck by how much Oz reminded me of Bryne's vision of Krypton.
Or, I assume, the other way round.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
James Nicoll
>pants)
>
oddly reminded of one of Wonder Girl's costumes, the all-red bodysuit one).
I'd like comic book companies to consider hiring artists with some faint
familiarity with human and in particular _female_ anatomy (tracing porn
does not count).
Ken from Chicago
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:i0q9v1$cgb$1...@reader1.panix.com...
I'm still fond of Jack Hamm's book, DRAWING THE HEAD AND FIGURE. It's clear,
clean, simple, gets the basics without being too exaggerated (like a lot of
books on how to draw comics) or too detailed (like a lot of books on how to
draw sketches).
-- Ken from Chicago
Norm D. Plumber
>In article <QrmdncE49Z75EK3R...@giganews.com>,
>Ken from Chicago <kwicker1...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>-- Ken from Chicago (one of those objecting to the jacket, but not the
>>pants)
>>
>Don't mind the jacket (she needs pockets) or the pants (although I am
>oddly reminded of one of Wonder Girl's costumes, the all-red bodysuit one).
>
>I'd like comic book companies to consider hiring artists with some faint
>familiarity with human and in particular _female_ anatomy (tracing porn
>does not count).
They'd probably have to pay them more, don't hold your breath.
--
pour spelling, bad tuping, and dylsexia; so it goes.
Ken from Chicago
"William F. Adams" <will...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:05dae090-b55d-4721...@a30g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 3, 3:05 pm, "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> "William F. Adams" <willad...@aol.com> wrote in
>> messagenews:c7d8880d-bb36-44fd...@j4g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > In a nutshell, that's why I prefer Marvel to DC --- the latter's
>> > endless cycle of reboots since collapsing Earths 1, 2 S, &c. in
>> > _Infinity Crisis_ --- by contrast Marvel has variety and meaning and
>> > contrast in their multiverse and more importantly, a storyline which
>> > one likes (e.g., Marvel Adventures) has a chance of surviving and
>> > being expanded upon.
>>
>> > Oddly, of late, the animated story versions have been the best IMO.
>>
>> No, Marvel simply reboots INDIVIDUALS, from Doctor Strange, Magneto,
>> Professor X, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, etc. Tho
>> they
>> are not above group resets, ala Heroes Reborn, and their parallel
>> timeline
>> universes (e.g., Ultimate, 2099, Next, 1402, etc.).
>>
>> Personally, I think they both should just embrace the full reboot on a
>> cyclical basis, roughly every decade, and incorporate it as part of the
>> overall storyline.
>
> I always liked the visits between contemporary heroes and retired
> heroes of DC's Earth 1 and Earth 2 --- that's why I felt that should
> have been continued and extended (Earth 3, 4, 5...) rather than wiping
> out what went before.
Oh please don't get me started on the multiversally cosmic stupidity of DC
wiping out the multiverse. It was clear, clean, elegant, but noooooooo ....
> I was looking forward to seeing Peter Parker and Mary Jane have a
> child in the mainstream continuity.
Ask and you might receive:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=23853
Altho it just makes the whole BND event look even more pointless.
> I want to see Franklin Richards grow up in the mainstream continuity.
Agreed--but not instant adulthood or teenhood.
> I don't mind reboots which are new, parallel universes (Marvel
> Adventures is particularly well done), but I absolutely hate the
> sliding scale timeline by which all events older than 7 years are
> discarded from affecting character aging so that characters are
> timeless and un-aging and never grow up.
>
> I loathe retcons which change the nature of a character.
>
> That's why I haven't bought a comic since X-Factor #1
>
> William
That's the beauty of the continuous reset. You get to keep the stuff that
"works" and discard the "mistakes". As long as the Big Two comics publishers
are going to keep their characters anyway, might as well play with that. You
get the effective growth even if the characters ages are relatively the
same.
Kinda like when Doctor Who regenerates but keeps his memories, only the
memories are more subconscious with each reboot.
Yes, I ultimately prefer DC's old method of passing the baton:
--Bruce Wayne to Jean-Paul Valley / Dick Grayson to Terry McGinnis
--Dick Grayson to Jason Todd to Tim Drake
--Jay Garrick to Barry Allen to Wally West
--Alan Scott to Hal Jordan to John Stewart / Guy Gardner to Kyle Rayner
--Oliver Queen to Roy Harper
--Dinah Drake to Dinah Lance
--Betty Kane to Barbara Gordon to Helena Bertinelli to Cassandra Cain
--Diana to Artemis to Hippolyta
--Clark Kent to Clark Kent Jr. / ???
But they've backed away from that with the return of Bruce Wayne, Hal
Jordan, Dick Grayson, Oliver Queen and even Barry Allen. Altho the Superman
Jr was an imaginary or Parallel Earth story and Diana became Wonder Woman
again.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"Norm D. Plumber" <nom-de...@non.com> wrote in message
news:jij136plmq3knjd3e...@4ax.com...
Would they have to pay more give the popularity of illustrators for
superhero comics who over-exaggerate the human, especially female, anatomy?
-- Ken from Chicago
hielan' laddie
(in article <pIudneneoc8qsazR...@giganews.com>):
You mean like this?
<http://grotesqueanatomy.blogspot.com/2004/05/now-thats-grotesque-
anatomy.html>
tphile
wrote:
> "Norm D. Plumber" <nom-de-pl...@non.com> wrote in messagenews:jij136plmq3knjd3e...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
> >>In article <QrmdncE49Z75EK3RnZ2dnUVZ_jqdn...@giganews.com>,
> >>Ken from Chicago <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >>>-- Ken from Chicago (one of those objecting to the jacket, but not the
> >>>pants)
>
> >>Don't mind the jacket (she needs pockets) or the pants (although I am
> >>oddly reminded of one of Wonder Girl's costumes, the all-red bodysuit
> >>one).
>
> >>I'd like comic book companies to consider hiring artists with some faint
> >>familiarity with human and in particular _female_ anatomy (tracing porn
> >>does not count).
>
> > They'd probably have to pay them more, don't hold your breath.
>
> > --
> > pour spelling, bad tuping, and dylsexia; so it goes.
>
> Would they have to pay more give the popularity of illustrators for
> superhero comics who over-exaggerate the human, especially female, anatomy?
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
KB is better qualified to answer this but I will give it a try.
First, male superheroes have over-exaggerated anatomy as well.
There are a variety of factors involved with pay.
newcomers vs veterans
being famous or fan favorite that will have a big impact on sales.
obvious major talent and skills not just figure drawing but
backgrounds
story telling continuity, perspective,
professionalism, getting the job done on time and as required.
art style fits the kind of story being told. cartoony to realistic
tphile
tphile
wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 20:52:05 -0400, Ken from Chicago wrote
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Norm D. Plumber" <nom-de-pl...@non.com> wrote in message
> >news:jij136plmq3knjd3e...@4ax.com...
> >> jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>
> >>> In article <QrmdncE49Z75EK3RnZ2dnUVZ_jqdn...@giganews.com>,
>
> >>>> -- Ken from Chicago (one of those objecting to the jacket, but not the
> >>>> pants)
>
> >>> Don't mind the jacket (she needs pockets) or the pants (although I am
> >>> oddly reminded of one of Wonder Girl's costumes, the all-red bodysuit
> >>> one).
>
> >>> I'd like comic book companies to consider hiring artists with some faint
> >>> familiarity with human and in particular _female_ anatomy (tracing porn
> >>> does not count).
>
> >> They'd probably have to pay them more, don't hold your breath.
>
> >> --
> >> pour spelling, bad tuping, and dylsexia; so it goes.
>
> > Would they have to pay more give the popularity of illustrators for
> > superhero comics who over-exaggerate the human, especially female, anatomy?
>
> You mean like this?
> <http://grotesqueanatomy.blogspot.com/2004/05/now-thats-grotesque-
>
> - Show quoted text -
That is artist Rob Liefeld rendition of Captain America for the Heroes
Reborn revamp
in 1996
Look him up on wikipedia for the whole story
but thats an extreme sample
tphile
Norm D. Plumber
>On Jul 4, 7:52�pm, "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>> "Norm D. Plumber" <nom-de-pl...@non.com> wrote in messagenews:jij136plmq3knjd3e...@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > jdnic...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>
>> >>In article <QrmdncE49Z75EK3RnZ2dnUVZ_jqdn...@giganews.com>,
>> >>Ken from Chicago <kwicker1b_nos...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> >>>-- Ken from Chicago (one of those objecting to the jacket, but not the
>> >>>pants)
>>
>> >>Don't mind the jacket (she needs pockets) or the pants (although I am
>> >>oddly reminded of one of Wonder Girl's costumes, the all-red bodysuit
>> >>one).
>>
>> >>I'd like comic book companies to consider hiring artists with some faint
>> >>familiarity with human and in particular _female_ anatomy (tracing porn
>> >>does not count).
>>
>> > They'd probably have to pay them more, don't hold your breath.
>>
>> > --
>> > pour spelling, bad tuping, and dylsexia; so it goes.
>>
>> Would they have to pay more give the popularity of illustrators for
>> superhero comics who over-exaggerate the human, especially female, anatomy?
>>
>> -- Ken from Chicago- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>KB is better qualified to answer this but I will give it a try.
>
>First, male superheroes have over-exaggerated anatomy as well.
Given the actual anatomies of body-builders, the over-exaggeration
seems to be decreasing over time.
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Bodybuilders+Around+World+Vie+Title+Mr+Universe+bnQuRvweW-Ul.jpg
Ken from Chicago
"tphile" <tph...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:4949a736-22e4-4ed2...@w12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Sadly enough, not "extreme" for the 1990s.
Which is where WW's jacket should have stayed.
-- Ken from Chicago
Ken from Chicago
"tphile" <tph...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:76194614-10d5-4a15...@y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
No, I wish correct human anatomy was the preferred style, but overly
exaggerated ones, from oversized breasts and bottoms on women, and oversized
pecs and biceps on men, have been far too popular, IMHO. I certainly agree
that the pictures should illustrate the story but far too often there have
been more splash pages and posters that seem more as one-off showings of
characters designed to be sold as individual pages at conventions.
Tho that might have changed in the last half decade or so I've stopped
reading.
-- Ken from Chicago
Brenda Clough
T Guy
> Below is the JMS quote about his Wonder Woman retcon/reboot or
> whatever you want to call it.
> Does anyone else find this origin plot familiar? It sounds a lot
> like
> King Arthur or Luke Skywalkers.
Luke Skywalker's origin plot sounded familiar to me when I first saw
Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.
> Yes WW needed some shaking up preferably something like Ed Brubaker
> with Captain America
> instead of another amazon crisis.
Preferably something like Mike Sekowsky.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> With the new costume comes a new direction for the title: ...
> In the new timeline, years ago the Gods removed
> their protection from Paradise Island, and left it vulnerable to
> attack," Straczynski shared in the press release. "And attacked it
> was. Led by a dark figure, a veritable army descended upon the
> Island,
> equipped with weapons that could kill even the Amazons. Outgunned,
> doomed, Hippolyta gave over her three-year-old daughter to a handful
> of guardians
My wish is JMS's command, apparantly. I suppose if I were asked to
reboot a comic series, I would go to Kirby and Sekowsky for a few good
ideas with potential.
Hmmm... anyone see any Kanigher in here?
T Guy
> On 2010-07-03 06:32:14 -0700, "Ken from Chicago"
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Kurt Busiek" <k...@busiek.com> wrote in message
> >news:i0lvaj$adf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> On 2010-07-02 16:54:37 -0700, David Johnston <da...@block.net> said:
>
> >>> On Fri, 2 Jul 2010 16:09:00 -0700 (PDT), tphile <tph...@cableone.net>
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>> Below is the JMS quote about his Wonder Woman retcon/reboot or
> >>>> whatever you want to call it.
> >>>> Does anyone else find this origin plot familiar?
>
> >>> time a comic book writer has wiped out most of the population of that
> >>> island. I'm starting to think they don't like that place.
>
> >> Amazons are like cockaroaches.
>
> >> You have to pray for them, or they just come back.
>
> > Kurt, did you misspell "prey"?
>
> "Spray."
>
> > Oh, and the new WW origin is standard archetypical Hero's origin and
> > has been used from Smallville to Buffy to The Powers of Matthew Star to
> > Luke Skywalker, of heroes with vast untapped potential they are unaware
> > of, with powerful mysterious forces after them and our heroes being
> > mentored to reach their maximum potential.
>
> Yes, those objecting to it presumably think the one Wondy had already
> was more distinctive.
Sorry to sound like I'm having a go at you, Kurt, but I know you know
better than to think WW has *one* origin.
T Guy
> Don't be a nitpicker.
>
> She may have had multiple origin tales in the past, but the bulk of
> them are all variations of the same basic story. You know that, too --
> you're just nitpicking because you apparently find the prospect of
> trying to get me to type stuff you already know back at you to be
> somehow entertaining.
>
> I don't.
Sorry again. If I saw this I might not have written my previous
comment.
Kurt Busiek
But I'll let your conscience punish you.
After all, it knows where you live.
Howard Brazee
<Tim.B...@redbridge.gov.uk> wrote:
>Luke Skywalker's origin plot sounded familiar to me when I first saw
>Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.
IMHO, the main reason Star Wars was such a huge success was because of
its mythic qualities, which only come by taking old ideas and stories
into its core.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
tphile
Go back to the comic store and see for yourself.
there are junks and gems in every media and genre but be sure to
check out
(and not just glance at)
Anything by Alex Ross or what he is involved with
Grant Morrison too
kdb Astro City
DC
Fables
Batman
Paul Dini is doing Zatanna
All Star Superman
Greg Rucka's run on Wonder Woman was great
Marvel
Captain America (the winter soldier is a must read) Ed Brubakers
best work yet
Black Widow
Astonishing X-Men
Black Panther
I am really enjoying The Green Hornet revival, though I think Kevin
Smith is ripping off
the Now Comic series too much.
and thats just a quick short list
comments anyone?
tphile
Joseph Nebus
>On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 15:19:11 -0700 (PDT), T Guy
><Tim.B...@redbridge.gov.uk> wrote:
>>Luke Skywalker's origin plot sounded familiar to me when I first saw
>>Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.
>IMHO, the main reason Star Wars was such a huge success was because of
>its mythic qualities, which only come by taking old ideas and stories
>into its core.
Well, there was also kind of this thing where it was ``fun''
and ``watchable'' and on top of that presented special effects nobody
much realized were *possible* before.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken from Chicago
"T Guy" <Tim.B...@redbridge.gov.uk> wrote in message
news:ed80b10e-c80d-4915...@k39g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
If I may be so bold, I think Kurt was saying those objecting to the origin
change, each have their own favorite origin they prefer.
-- Ken from Chicago
Kurt Busiek
<kwicker1...@comcast.net> said:
No, I wasn't.
But I think T Guy will get the gist, from the other message I posted,
even if you didn't.
kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com — for all your Busiek needs!
William December Starr
tphile <tph...@cableone.net> said:
> Below is the JMS quote about his Wonder Woman retcon/reboot
> or whatever you want to call it.
Let's face it, there are only two pertinent questions about any
reworking of Wonder Woman: (1) Is she still going to be hot? and
(2) Will she still get put in bondage a lot?
-- wds
tphile
> In article <36180da3-ccc9-4ec3-9a68-20e923327...@c33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Its a safe bet for the first two, but not to be impertinent there is a
third question
(3) Is she still a virgin or to remain so? but given this is JMS,
which supervillian will make her a
mom. Let the betting begin.
If this is a temporary altered timeline story, then anything goes.
One of the biggest complaints has been how this messes up Donna Wonder
Girl Troy.
Wanna bet this is going to give Donna another origin? ;-)
tphile
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> On Jul 6, 11:21 pm, wdst...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>> In article <36180da3-ccc9-4ec3-9a68-20e923327...@c33g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>> tphile <tph...@cableone.net> said:
>>
>>> Below is the JMS quote about his Wonder Woman retcon/reboot
>>> or whatever you want to call it.
>> Let's face it, there are only two pertinent questions about any
>> reworking of Wonder Woman: (1) Is she still going to be hot? and
>> (2) Will she still get put in bondage a lot?
>>
>> -- wds
>
> Its a safe bet for the first two, but not to be impertinent there is a
> third question
> (3) Is she still a virgin or to remain so? but given this is JMS,
> which supervillian will make her a
> mom.
At least it's not Frank Miller.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
David McMillan
I knew Frank Millar was a supervillain, but interested in impregnating
WW? I Did Not Know That.
tphile
>
> - Show quoted text -
If thats what it takes, then there are a LOT of supervillians out
there
and of both genders too.
Besides, didn't you know that Frank already had her in Sin City,
walking
the streets of Old Town and talking to Marv too.
tphile