Excession - can someone please explain what happened?
The Blue Rose
Having read the following IMB books
The Player of Games - really enjoyed this one
Use of Weapons - hmmmm
Against a Dark Background - very similar style to UoW
Feersum Endjinn - I LOVED THIS BOOK - very clever and funny
I decided to try Excession. Well can someone please explain to me
what the book was about?
SPOILERS BELOW
Ok I caught on to the fact there was a conspiracy, but what was the
point of it? Why start a war using the Affront?
Why did the 'Grey Area' dive into the Excession? Where did it go?
What was the point of the Dajiel/Genar-Hofoen thing?
Does the Interesting Times Gang run the Culture?
What did the last message from the Excession mean?
What was the Sleeper Service really up to?
Why did the 'Attitude Adjuster' turn traitor to the Culture?
Well there you have it - I was completely mystified throughout most of
the book, and really had no idea about what was happening most of the
time. Pleased i didn't buy it:-)
Stacey - dazed, glazed and amazed
Stacey Hill (note spambuster in my address if replying by e-mail)
"Men are like parking spaces: the best ones are taken and
the only ones left are handicapped!"
sta...@xtra.co.nz
Graeme Lindsell
In article <34665ab5...@news.xtra.co.nz>, sta...@xtra.co.nz.remove
this to reply wrote:
> Having read the following IMB books
>
> The Player of Games - really enjoyed this one
> Use of Weapons - hmmmm
> Against a Dark Background - very similar style to UoW
> Feersum Endjinn - I LOVED THIS BOOK - very clever and funny
>
> I decided to try Excession. Well can someone please explain to me
> what the book was about?
>
Well, I'll try, but I have a question for other readers as well.
> SPOILERS BELOW
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> Ok I caught on to the fact there was a conspiracy, but what was the
> point of it? Why start a war using the Affront?
Because the Culture found the very idea of the Affront offensive -
the Culture regularly intervenes in other societies to make them more
acceptable to it (and this forms most of the plot of PoG and UoW). It
justifies this by pointing out that its intervention improves the
lives of the vast majority of the inhabitants of those societies.
The Affront were just nearer to the Culture's tech level than most of
its other targets - more advanced that Azad or the cluster in UoW,
less than the Idirans; the Culture couldn't just send in agents &
ships with effectors, they had to destroy the Affront space fleet
first. The Culture doesn't like starting wars with equivalent tech
societies, so the conspiracy had to make it look like the Affront
started it. The Excession was a convenient way of starting it.
>
> Why did the 'Grey Area' dive into the Excession? Where did it go?
a) Because it'd just been talking to the Excession, and I assume had
been told that this would take it somewhere nice. BTW, it dived into
the Grid, not the Excession.
b) "Somewhere wonderful".
>
> What was the point of the Dajiel/Genar-Hofoen thing?
>
For the author, it was to introduce some human characters so that
the entire book wasn't just Minds talking to each other. For the
plot, the Sleeper Service refused to act for the ITG until Hofoen
was delivered to it. The girl was introduced by "Shoot Them Later"
to stop Hofoen - she seems to be selected since she's something
pretty close to Hofoen's perfect lover.
> Does the Interesting Times Gang run the Culture?
>
No. It seems to be the war-planning section of Special Circumstances.
> What did the last message from the Excession mean?
>
"I don't think these people are worth talking to, and I'd like to
be called 'Excession' from now on"
> What was the Sleeper Service really up to?
What do you mean? When it demanded Hofoen? When it aproached the Excession?
When it turned lots of frozen people into works of art?
>
> Why did the 'Attitude Adjuster' turn traitor to the Culture?
>
It didn't, at least from its own viewpoint; it was just acting as an
extremely deniable agent of a section of Special Circumstances.
My question for anyone who's read Excession - have you been able
to work out what the conspiracy's actual plan was to have been,
assuming that the "Killing Time" and "Shoot Them Later" (and the
other one I've forgotten) hadn't intervened?
As far as I can guess, the fleet of ships from Pittance and the
"Attitude Adjuster" would have to be destroyed by the Sleeper Service
when the reached the Excession, in order to hide the actions of the
other members of the conspiracy, the "Steely Glint"etc. Any surviving
ships could immediately implicate them, as their names and messages
from them were used by the "Attitude Adjuster" when it woke the
ships at Pittance.
However, when the "Attitude Adjuster" is getting its attitudes
adjusted by the "Killing Time", just before it kills itself, it says
that the plan will result in very few or no deaths, including Mind
deaths, which IMO rules out destroying a fleet of several hundred
culture vessels. Perhaps the AA hadn't been told the truth, or it
thought that ships reconstructed from mind-state records (including
itself) didn't count as being dead.
> Well there you have it - I was completely mystified throughout most of
> the book, and really had no idea about what was happening most of the
> time. Pleased i didn't buy it:-)
I'd suggest reading it again - I didn't like it much the first time I
read it, but started to appreciate it when I tackled it again. I'd
rate it roughly equal to PoG in the Culture books; behind UoW and
ahead of Consider Plebas, which I don't like that much.
>
> Stacey - dazed, glazed and amazed
--
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lind...@rsc.anu.edu.au
Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University
adam louis stephanides
sta...@xtra.co.nz (The Blue Rose) writes:
>Having read the following IMB books
>The Player of Games - really enjoyed this one
>Use of Weapons - hmmmm
>Against a Dark Background - very similar style to UoW
>Feersum Endjinn - I LOVED THIS BOOK - very clever and funny
>I decided to try Excession. Well can someone please explain to me
>what the book was about?
>SPOILERS BELOW
Off the top of my head:
>Ok I caught on to the fact there was a conspiracy, but what was the
>point of it? Why start a war using the Affront?
To make the Affront appear the aggressors, so that the Culture would
be motivated to occupy and reform them. The conspirators were con-
vinced that the Affront were so horrible they had to be conquered for
the good of everyone in their path, but they couldn't convince the
rest of the Culture of this.
>Why did the 'Grey Area' dive into the Excession? Where did it go?
To get to whatever "other universe" was beyond the Excession. It
got there.
>What was the point of the Dajiel/Genar-Hofoen thing?
Good question.:) My guess is that it was partly to show on a small
scale the futility of making elaborate schemes, as the failure of
the conspiracy showed on a large scale.
>Does the Interesting Times Gang run the Culture?
The Minds as a group run the Culture. The Interesting Times Gang
may have run the Culture in the past, but IIRC it had been a long
time since they had gotten together.
>What did the last message from the Excession mean?
First of all, that it was a bridge from one "universe" to another.
Second of all, that the Culture had indeed cut itself off from
whatever it might have learned from the Excession and those who
sent it, as that Mind argued. (The most important point in the
message, IMO). Thirdly, that it was affected by
its experiences in our universe to some extent, since it asked
to be known as the Excession. Fourthly, that it had been trying
to do as little harm to us as possible. There may have been other
things, but I don't have the book at hand.
>What was the Sleeper Service really up to?
It was storing huge amounts of matter-energy (if I have the term
correctly) to be made into the "cloud of warships" used to force
the Affront to surrender. Its Eccentric behavior was a device
to enable it to do this without anyone outside the conspiracy
knowing.
>Why did the 'Attitude Adjuster' turn traitor to the Culture?
It didn't (at least not by its own lights). It pretended to
as part of the conspiracy, to enable the Affront to gain control
of the ships which would let them believe they had a chance of
winning, thus encouraging them to start the war.
Since the Sleeper Service had its "cloud of warships"
on tap the Affront really never had a chance, and the Attitude
Adjuster knew this.
Hope this helps,
Adam
adam louis stephanides
Graeme....@anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell) writes:
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> The Affront were just nearer to the Culture's tech level than most of
>its other targets - more advanced that Azad or the cluster in UoW,
>less than the Idirans; the Culture couldn't just send in agents &
>ships with effectors, they had to destroy the Affront space fleet
>first. The Culture doesn't like starting wars with equivalent tech
>societies, so the conspiracy had to make it look like the Affront
>started it. The Excession was a convenient way of starting it.
Was it that the Affront were more advanced than those other societies,
or just that they were so awful no form of peaceful persuasion could
be effective, in contrast to UoW; my recollection of PoG is that the Azadian
Empire was so delicately constructed Special Circumstances only had to
give them a push and they'd fall over.
--Adam
adam louis stephanides
Graeme....@anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell) writes:
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> My question for anyone who's read Excession - have you been able
>to work out what the conspiracy's actual plan was to have been,
>assuming that the "Killing Time" and "Shoot Them Later" (and the
>other one I've forgotten) hadn't intervened?
> As far as I can guess, the fleet of ships from Pittance and the
>"Attitude Adjuster" would have to be destroyed by the Sleeper Service
>when the reached the Excession, in order to hide the actions of the
>other members of the conspiracy, the "Steely Glint"etc. Any surviving
>ships could immediately implicate them, as their names and messages
>from them were used by the "Attitude Adjuster" when it woke the
>ships at Pittance.
An interesting question, which hadn't occurred to me before. The
Sleeper Service is unaware of being involved in a plot to trick
the Affront into declaring war (and had it been instructed to
kill the turncoat ships without allowing them to surrender or
giving them a chance to explain themselves, it surely would
have included that in its "J'Accuse"). And the Attitude Adjuster,
in its thoughts in Chapter 8, Part V (pp. 256-8 of the Spectra
edition), thinks that the ships it has deceived may die, not that
they will die, so it's not planning to make sure they don't survive.
So the conspiracy has to have allowed for the possibility of
witnesses surviving.
My best guess, given the AA's admittedly ambiguous thoughts and
the reaction of the SS when it learns of the conspiracy (and of
the NIH when it is exposed) is that had things gone as planned,
the AA was planning to "take the rap": to claim it was acting
on its own, had forged the confirmatory messages from the other
ships, and had genuinely betrayed the Culture.
> However, when the "Attitude Adjuster" is getting its attitudes
>adjusted by the "Killing Time", just before it kills itself, it says
>that the plan will result in very few or no deaths, including Mind
>deaths, which IMO rules out destroying a fleet of several hundred
>culture vessels. Perhaps the AA hadn't been told the truth, or it
>thought that ships reconstructed from mind-state records (including
>itself) didn't count as being dead.
Actually, it calls it a "gigadeathcrime-risking scheme." (327) In
the earlier passage of its thoughts I cited above, it thinks that
there *may* be only a few deaths, not that there will be.
--Adam
Scott Colvin Beeler
SPOILERS BELOW
The "Sleeper Service" was unaware of the conspiracy to provoke
the Affront into war, but likewise the conspiracy was unaware of
the SS's hidden nature. The SS reveals itself to the "Steely Glint"
and the "Not Invented Here" very near the end of the novel, so
they couldn't have been expecting its actions. It claims to be
under orders from the Interesting Times Gang, but it must be only
a few core ships which knew, since the "Serious Callers Only" and
the "Shoot Them Later" didn't know either.
My guess is that the conspiracy wanted to use the duped Culture
ships to spark a real war between the Culture and the Affront.
Once serious hostilities started, things would hopefully escalate
to the point that the Culture would seriously beat down the
Affront. (Maybe they were also counting on the witness duped
ships to be destroyed in the battles.)
But the secret weapon of the "Sleeper Sevice" wrecked this plan,
since in the face of its overwhelming force the Affront-duped
Culture ships had no choice but to surrender quickly. This
prevented the war from really starting, so the Affront didn't
actually get badly hurt. Also, because the conspiracy was
discovered by the "Serious Callers Only" etc (and verified by the
surrendering ships), that was another reason the Affront got
off lightly since they had been somwhat coerced into their actions.
So the conspiracy didn't really work out, because of the SS's secret.
Scott
--
Scott Colvin Beeler
Scott Colvin Beeler
aste...@students.uiuc.edu (adam louis stephanides) writes:
SPOILERS BELOW
>I think the communication from the SS which the SG is reading near the
>end of the book was a public communication, not one sent
>only to the SG and the NIH. Otherwise, instead of referring to "the
>ships/Minds named in the aforesaid files and those others also con-
>cerned in the matter," the SS would just have said "you".
This makes sense on rereading. I had just glanced through it before
posting.
>In any
>case, this communication wasn't what revealed to the SG and the NIH
>that the jig was up, since it mentions the NIH's suicide, and the
>SG had considered suicide before the NIH did so.
Oh, certainly. I'm saying they knew the jig was up the moment the
SS came charging in and forced everybody to surrender. They knew
that by talking to the duped Culture ships the SS would be able
to worm out the conspiracy.
>Also, my reading is that what caused the conspiracy to fail was not
>the SS's crushing of the Affront, but its subsequent refusal to take
>part in punitive actions against the Affront, and its public expo-
>sure of the conspiracy. It also seems unlikely that the conspirators
>would have provoked the Affront to attack the Culture unless they were
>absolutely positive the Affront would lose, given the consequences
>of an Affront victory. So I tend to reject your theory, although it
>is an interesting idea.
I agree; the Excession is what makes this whole business dangerous.
Without it, the Culture would surely crush the Affront eventually
(maybe in a few weeks or months). But the duped Culture warships would
be enough for the Affront to get near the Excession and hold that
position until the Culture gets mobilized, and if they could get
Something Interesting out of the Excession who knows what might happen.
So your point is a good one. If the conspiracy didn't know about the
SS's warships they took a sizeable risk, which I don't think would be
worth it--the Affront didn't seem *that* annoying to me. Maybe your
interpretation is correct.
But you're saying that the conspiracy was counting on the SS
coming to the rescue, except they thought it would destroy all
its enemies instead of taking prisoners, right? This seems a
little wierd to me--I don't see Culture ships as the sort to
shoot first and ask questions later. (Well, ROUs sure, but not
GSVs anyway.) I suppose they could have misread the SS's
personality, but that would seem to be a fairly pivotal point in
their conspiracy to be unsure of.
One possibility I can think of is that the SS was planning on going in
guns blazing when it thought the Affront were attacking on their
own (with the sole help of the "Attitude Adjuster" in conning the
Pittance ships), but it changed its mind when it found out about
the conspiracy (from the "Serious Callers Only") and decided the
Affront were only somewhat to blame. Is this what you were
thinking of, Adam?
This is definitely more complicated than I first thought. :)
adam louis stephanides
scbe...@unity.ncsu.edu (Scott Colvin Beeler) writes:
>aste...@students.uiuc.edu (adam louis stephanides) writes:
>SPOILERS BELOW
>Oh, certainly. I'm saying they knew the jig was up the moment the
>SS came charging in and forced everybody to surrender. They knew
>that by talking to the duped Culture ships the SS would be able
>to worm out the conspiracy.
Not necessarily; see below.
>I agree; the Excession is what makes this whole business dangerous.
>Without it, the Culture would surely crush the Affront eventually
>(maybe in a few weeks or months). But the duped Culture warships would
>be enough for the Affront to get near the Excession and hold that
>position until the Culture gets mobilized, and if they could get
>Something Interesting out of the Excession who knows what might happen.
>So your point is a good one. If the conspiracy didn't know about the
>SS's warships they took a sizeable risk, which I don't think would be
>worth it--the Affront didn't seem *that* annoying to me. Maybe your
>interpretation is correct.
Come to think of it, even if the conspiracy does know about the SS's
warships, they were taking a sizeable risk. There was always the
possibility that the Affront would be able to exploit the Excession
before the SS arrived. After all, who could know that the Excession
wouldn't decide the Affront were its kind of people? Maybe the
conspiracy was so excited about the possibility of finally getting
a chance to put its plan into action, it let its enthusiasm overwhelm
its prudence. (That sort of undermines my earlier point, I admit.)
>But you're saying that the conspiracy was counting on the SS
>coming to the rescue, except they thought it would destroy all
>its enemies instead of taking prisoners, right? This seems a
>little wierd to me--I don't see Culture ships as the sort to
>shoot first and ask questions later. (Well, ROUs sure, but not
>GSVs anyway.) I suppose they could have misread the SS's
>personality, but that would seem to be a fairly pivotal point in
>their conspiracy to be unsure of.
As I said in an earlier post, my best guess is that the AA was
planning to "take the rap," claiming that it had acted on its
own to betray the Culture, and had forged the confirmation mes-
sages. This is the story the conspirators gave out to
the ship which defects from the conspiracy's opponents. Presum-
ably this would be consistent with the Pittance ships' stories,
so it would be unnecessary to have them all destroyed.
>This is definitely more complicated than I first thought. :)
Indeed. Working on this thread, I realized how much of
the plot I still didn't understand.
--Adam