Tigana: Why's he ruining it?
sl...@cc.usu.edu
extremely pleased and sorely dissapointed, all in one.
Kay's style is really binding, very cohesive. The prologue was easily
the best prologue I've read to date. I've wondered if he didn't spend a little
extra time with it making it work as well as it does? Anyway...
I can't figure why he is bringing homosexuality into it so strong. It
is like he's trying to press his social/political opinions on it. The fact is,
he is ruining the book with it. My love of Fantasy has never been supported by
people who feel it is a public forum for presenting their personal views.
Maybe Kay is just trying to be "Politically Correct," I don't know. I've been
tempted several times to put it on the shelf and pick up The Dragonbone Chair,
which I haven't read yet either. If it continues to remain in twisted-focus,
I'm sure I'll be more than tempted.
So tell me, should I pick up The Dragonbone Chair now before I waste
more time?
TC
--
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
There is the Dark. There is the Light.
They stand in opposition in all things.
There is the world.
Us.
Why should we stand in opposition,
Denying the existance of both?
Welcoming twilight and shadow?
Anonymous
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Matt Austern
> I can't figure why he is bringing homosexuality into it so
> strong. It is like he's trying to press his social/political
> opinions on it. The fact is, he is ruining the book with it.
Oh, I dunno. Most of the fantasy books *I* read have quite a lot of
heterosexuality in them. (In fact, I can't offhand think of any at
all that has none. Can any of you think of one?) Somehow, that's
never seemed to ruin the book.
Personally, I don't see that this is all that different.
--
Matthew Austern Maybe we can eventually make language a
ma...@physics.berkeley.edu complete impediment to understanding.
Judith Ellen Ghirardelli
> I just started reading Guy Gavriel Kay's book Tigana and have been
>extremely pleased and sorely dissapointed, all in one.
> Kay's style is really binding, very cohesive. The prologue was easily
>the best prologue I've read to date. I've wondered if he didn't spend a little
>extra time with it making it work as well as it does? Anyway...
> I can't figure why he is bringing homosexuality into it so strong. It
>is like he's trying to press his social/political opinions on it. The fact is,
>he is ruining the book with it. My love of Fantasy has never been supported by
>people who feel it is a public forum for presenting their personal views.
>Maybe Kay is just trying to be "Politically Correct," I don't know. I've been
>tempted several times to put it on the shelf and pick up The Dragonbone Chair,
>which I haven't read yet either. If it continues to remain in twisted-focus,
>I'm sure I'll be more than tempted.
> So tell me, should I pick up The Dragonbone Chair now before I waste
>more time?
>
> TC
>
mentions of homosexuality, but I did not think it was strong, and none
of the major characters had anything but heterosexual relations. I
certainly would not say it was "ruined" by it.
_Tigana_ is one of my favorite books, and I would place it above
Tad Williams stuff. I like the Williams' stuff, and I love the
epic quest story, but it was not as enjoyable to me as _Tigana_.
Kay writes and it sounds like music ("May the memory of Tigana be
like a Blade in my Soul"). And the story is so unique. Not the
typical swords and magic fantasy stuff - much better IMO.
So I would read the Williams' trilogy, but only after _Tigana_.
Perhaps I have misremembered the book, but I don't see what political
opinions are being pushed on the reader, nor do I see homosexuality
playing anything more than a minor role, in that it is mentioned to
let the reader know it is a part of the world, and considered
acceptable.
Judy G.
--
Judy Ghirardelli || Love is Always , Me is Life
ghir...@bunyip.gsfc.nasa.gov || Forever is just another Smile
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"It's hard to be brave when you're a Very Small Animal." - Piglet
Random
eventhough the few parts, Dragonbone Chair is a very good book
as well as the sequils (?) The Stone of Farewell and
Green Angle Tower.
They are some of the best books I read and The last is the longest,
which is hard to immagine considering the size of Dragon Bone Chair.
But to give you an idea on how good it was I finished Green Angle
Tower in less than a week. It's almost impossible to put down.
random
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Random mve...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu
Sex is like pizza. When it's good it's real good,
When it's bad, it's still pretty good.
Dani Zweig
> Sex is like pizza. When it's good it's real good,
> When it's bad, it's still pretty good.
May I ask where you buy your pizza?
Raolin Darksbane
>In article <1993Sep1....@cc.usu.edu>, <sl...@cc.usu.edu> wrote:
>> I just started reading Guy Gavriel Kay's book Tigana and have been
>>extremely pleased and sorely dissapointed, all in one.
>> I can't figure why he is bringing homosexuality into it so strong. It
>>is like he's trying to press his social/political opinions on it. The fact is
>>he is ruining the book with it. My love of Fantasy has never been supported by
>> So tell me, should I pick up The Dragonbone Chair now before I waste
>>more time?
>>
>> TC
>>
>Pushing homosexuality so strong??? Did I read the same book?? I recall
>mentions of homosexuality, but I did not think it was strong, and none
>of the major characters had anything but heterosexual relations. I
>certainly would not say it was "ruined" by it.
Nor did I find thatr he was 'pushing' his views on the reader.
>_Tigana_ is one of my favorite books, and I would place it above
>Tad Williams stuff. I like the Williams' stuff, and I love the
>epic quest story, but it was not as enjoyable to me as _Tigana_.
>Kay writes and it sounds like music ("May the memory of Tigana be
>like a Blade in my Soul"). And the story is so unique. Not the
>typical swords and magic fantasy stuff - much better IMO.
Personally IMHO, I found TIGANA to be extremely disapointing, I ending
I found to be ANTI-climatic. I would rate The Dragonbone Chair well
above Tigana in all respects expect maybe the use un-neccessary use of
rather long-winded words. =)
>Judy G.
--
| Donald Chow | dc...@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca |
| I'll get some sleep when I'm dead! |
\ De-Alcoholized Beer? What's up the point? /
|| "Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin!" ||
Lars Henrik Tombre
|> In article <1993Sep1....@cc.usu.edu>, <sl...@cc.usu.edu> wrote:
|> > I just started reading Guy Gavriel Kay's book Tigana and have been
|> >extremely pleased and sorely dissapointed, all in one.
|> > Kay's style is really binding, very cohesive. The prologue was easily
|> >the best prologue I've read to date. I've wondered if he didn't spend a little
|> >extra time with it making it work as well as it does? Anyway...
|> > I can't figure why he is bringing homosexuality into it so strong. It
|> >is like he's trying to press his social/political opinions on it. The fact is,
|> >he is ruining the book with it. My love of Fantasy has never been supported by
|> >people who feel it is a public forum for presenting their personal views.
|> >Maybe Kay is just trying to be "Politically Correct," I don't know. I've been
|> >tempted several times to put it on the shelf and pick up The Dragonbone Chair,
|> >which I haven't read yet either. If it continues to remain in twisted-focus,
|> >I'm sure I'll be more than tempted.
|> > So tell me, should I pick up The Dragonbone Chair now before I waste
|> >more time?
|> >
|> > TC
|> >
What book are you reading? I've read "Tigana" twice, and the only reference
to homosexuality i can remember is the two female dancers in Alessan's troupe.
On the other hand there is a strong incest scene between two of the main
characters. Kay's writing has always been powerful; this book is far more
rewarding than the fairly standard fantasy trilogy "The Fionavar Tapestry".
He's one of the few fantasy authors who doesn't succumb to the easy way out
by making the villains inhuman monsters. "Tigana" is like the real world,
there is good in every character, and noone is flawless. I found reading the
book to be a rewarding experience. "The Dragonbone Chair" on the other hand,
is a good read, but doesn't have much to distinguish it from the average
epic quest fantasy. Stay with "Tigana"!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You know what I want : Slow genocide of Arsenal supporters!"
Slightly rewritten from "Weaveworld" by Clive Barker
Lars H. Tombre
Department of Chemical Engineering
Norwegian Institute of Technology
email : tom...@alkymi.unit.no
Belinda Asbell
>
>What book are you reading? I've read "Tigana" twice, and the only reference
>to homosexuality i can remember is the two female dancers in Alessan's troupe.
that, and Tomasso (?) is a pederast. but i don't think there was a lot of
'trying to ram ideology down your throat' kind of thing. The reference to
the dancers was more to illustrate the power of the dance they were doing....
it was powerful and intimate enough to make two people not normally lovers
be lovers. And the reference to Tomasso was partly to give a reason to
change the normal father-son relationship (i don't think Tomasso would have
been so useful to Sandre had Sandre thought of him more as his son (which
he was) and less as a man whose ideas were worth listening to. Besides, I
think Tomasso intentionally overemphasized his pederasty to throw people
off the track of his plotting...
>He's one of the few fantasy authors who doesn't succumb to the easy way out
>by making the villains inhuman monsters. "Tigana" is like the real world,
Agreed! i enjoyed the way Kay did Brandin.
>there is good in every character, and noone is flawless. I found reading the
>book to be a rewarding experience. "The Dragonbone Chair" on the other hand,
>is a good read, but doesn't have much to distinguish it from the average
>epic quest fantasy. Stay with "Tigana"!
I second the motion. "The Dragonbone Chair", while also good, can wait.
--
Belinda Asbell + System Admin - Harris Controls, Melbourne, FL
m...@ccd.harris.com + HCD doesn't share my opinions (I hope :)
Clust doeth a lwnc wybodaeth.* Perpetual Learner * Cwsg yw bywyd heb lyfrau.
Dash Wendrzyk
|> > I can't figure why he is bringing homosexuality into it so strong. It
|> >is like he's trying to press his social/political opinions on it. The fact is,
|> >he is ruining the book with it. My love of Fantasy has never been supported by
|> >people who feel it is a public forum for presenting their personal views.
|> >Maybe Kay is just trying to be "Politically Correct," I don't know. I've been
|> >tempted several times to put it on the shelf and pick up The Dragonbone Chair,
|> >which I haven't read yet either. If it continues to remain in twisted-focus,
|> >I'm sure I'll be more than tempted.
|> Pushing homosexuality so strong??? Did I read the same book?? I recall
|> mentions of homosexuality, but I did not think it was strong, and none
|> of the major characters had anything but heterosexual relations. I
|> certainly would not say it was "ruined" by it.
|>
It's been awhile since I last read Tigana, but I can't recall strong homosexual
themes either. If I remember right, there is one scene in the beginning where
the girl is disguised as a boy (?).
Anyway, keep plugging with _Tigana_. It's worth it and the homosexual themes
go away, unlike Mercedes Lackey's stuff :-)
dash
David Wren-Hardin
>extremely pleased and sorely dissapointed, all in one.
> Kay's style is really binding, very cohesive. The prologue was easily
>the best prologue I've read to date. I've wondered if he didn't spend a little
>extra time with it making it work as well as it does? Anyway...
> I can't figure why he is bringing homosexuality into it so strong. It
>is like he's trying to press his social/political opinions on it. The fact is,
>he is ruining the book with it. My love of Fantasy has never been supported by
>people who feel it is a public forum for presenting their personal views.
>Maybe Kay is just trying to be "Politically Correct," I don't know. I've been
Hmm, it's been a couple of years since I've read this book, but I really
don't recall a single mention of homosexuality. I'm not doubting its there,
but it obviously made so little impact on me that I don't remember it at
all, and I really enjoyed the book. What specifically is there that bothers
you ?
>tempted several times to put it on the shelf and pick up The Dragonbone Chair,
>which I haven't read yet either. If it continues to remain in twisted-focus,
>I'm sure I'll be more than tempted.
> So tell me, should I pick up The Dragonbone Chair now before I waste
>more time?
I would read this in any case :) I'm almost finished with the third and last
book in the series _To Green Angel Tower_, and am really enjoying it.
>
> TC
>
>--
>||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
> There is the Dark. There is the Light.
> They stand in opposition in all things.
> There is the world.
> Us.
> Why should we stand in opposition,
> Denying the existance of both?
> Welcoming twilight and shadow?
> Anonymous
>||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
>
--
*****************************************************************************
David Wren-Hardin bd...@quads.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
Thousands of years ago the Egyptians worshipped cats as gods.
Cats have never forgotten this.
Andrew C. Plotkin
ruining it? sl...@cc.usu.edu (1402)
> I just started reading Guy Gavriel Kay's book Tigana and have been
> extremely pleased and sorely dissapointed, all in one.
> Kay's style is really binding, very cohesive. The prologue was easily
> the best prologue I've read to date. I've wondered if he didn't spend a
> little
> extra time with it making it work as well as it does? Anyway...
> I can't figure why he is bringing homosexuality into it so strong. It
> is like he's trying to press his social/political opinions on it. The
> fact is,
> he is ruining the book with it.
It's been a while since I read _Tigana_, but I don't remember anything
obtrusively political.
But, basically, what you are complaining about is your problem, not
Kay's. If his characters get you hot and bothered, don't read the book.
(I stopped about two chapters into Elgin's _Native Tongue_, but I don't
claim she ruined the book; I just can't read it.)
> My love of Fantasy has never been supported by
> people who feel it is a public forum for presenting their personal views.
I am more or less dumfounded. Whose views is he supposed to present?
Some National Council on American Morality? *That's* the "PC" you're
afraid of.
The allegorical element is probably what I enjoy most about fantasy; Kay
uses it heavily, which is one of the reasons I liked _Tigana_ so much.
And allegory always comes with a bias of personal belief, or morality,
or worldview.
If, on the other hand, you just want action, magic, and no
underpinnings... well, the seventh Shannara book just came out in
hardback.
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Nachison,Beth
(Crawford Kilian) writes...
>The problem I found with Tigana (though in general I liked the book and its
>complex characters) was Kay's use of a neo-Italian-Renaissance culture
>complete with Italianate personal and place names. As I observed in a review,
>it's like finding pizza on the menu of a Japanese restaurant: reassuringly
>familiar, but out of place.
>
I, on the other hand, didn't find that to be a problem, but rather a
refreshing change from all the clumsy sorta-Germanic/sorta-Scandinavian/
sorta-Japanese/sorta-nothing-in-particular cultures that infest the
lower grades of fantasy. Kay's Italian parallels run deeper than simply
using names and terminology, too, but far from being distracted, I thought
it enhanced the reality-factor in his constructed world. Far too many
fantasies (whether they're sorta-something cultures or made up entirely
out of whole cloth) seem to be incredibly shallow, even when the author
has obviously put tremendous effort into arranging the geography/cosmology/
chronology of the thing: the political, economic, and social underpinnings
are either ignored altogether, or betray such a naivety or ignorance that
you KNOW that world exists only as stage-dressing and could NEVER function
in reality. It's great when an author invents a world from the ground
up and puts in all the layers that make it work believably; but a
sophisticated use of a pre-existing model, as in TIGANA, is just as
effective, in my mind, and leaves a lot less to chance.
Crawford Kilian
complex characters) was Kay's use of a neo-Italian-Renaissance culture
complete with Italianate personal and place names. As I observed in a review,
it's like finding pizza on the menu of a Japanese restaurant: reassuringly
familiar, but out of place.
This could lead to another thread of the best and worst use of known cultures
in the creation of fantasy worlds...
--
Crawford Kilian Communications Department Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawfor...@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: cki...@cln.etc.bc.ca
prunesquallor
>The problem I found with Tigana (though in general I liked the book and its
>complex characters) was Kay's use of a neo-Italian-Renaissance culture
>complete with Italianate personal and place names. As I observed in a review,
>it's like finding pizza on the menu of a Japanese restaurant: reassuringly
>familiar, but out of place.
>This could lead to another thread of the best and worst use of known cultures
>in the creation of fantasy worlds...
That it could. :-)
My nominations for best: _Bridge Of Birds_ by Barry Hughart. I'm not
sure why this blending of historical China and a "China that never was"
works so well for me; maybe a combination such as this relies wholly
upon feel--it feels right or it feels wrong. The combination here
feels so right that it is one of the strongest aspects of one of my
all time favorite fantasies.
I thought _Tigana_ did a fine job in this regard; it is an unusual
angle to take, perhaps, but I found it a refreshing change from the
myriad Northern European worlds, which also borrow personal and
place names from the parent culture and place them in a (IMHO) generic
"other world". Although I enjoyed _Tigana_ slightly more, I thought
_A Song For Arbonne_ was an even better use of a known culture. I
think Kay knows exactly what he is doing, and I look forward to his
forthcoming take on ancient Spain with much anticipation.
--
Michael L. Medlin a...@iris.claremont.edu
"I know why
Fish swim in the sky" --Chris Knox,
"In The Face Of Fashion"
Alessan
>
> This could lead to another thread of the best and worst use of known cultures
> in the creation of fantasy worlds...
>
Best: Janny Wurtz & Raymond Feist using Korea as the basis for the
Daughter/Servant/Mistress of empire books, IMHO.
Worst: I don't want to think about.... :)
--
wat...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz All opinions are my own, I am
not a representitive of the
"...Blind to the dangers and dismays, Wellington City Council, just
That wipe the innocent smile away..." a ghost in their machine...
Christopher Lee Cavender
Raolin Darksbane <dc...@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>ghir...@wam.umd.edu (Judith Ellen Ghirardelli) writes:
>
>>In article <1993Sep1....@cc.usu.edu>, <sl...@cc.usu.edu> wrote:
>>Tad Williams stuff. I like the Williams' stuff, and I love the
>>epic quest story, but it was not as enjoyable to me as _Tigana_.
>>Kay writes and it sounds like music ("May the memory of Tigana be
>>like a Blade in my Soul"). And the story is so unique. Not the
>>typical swords and magic fantasy stuff - much better IMO.
>
> Personally IMHO, I found TIGANA to be extremely disapointing, I ending
>I found to be ANTI-climatic. I would rate The Dragonbone Chair well
>above Tigana in all respects expect maybe the use un-neccessary use of
>rather long-winded words. =)
>
Was the smiley meant for long winded words, or for the concept that TIGANA
was more Anti-Climatic than Dragonbone Chair? If the latter, well and good,
if the former... Did we read the same books? Perhaps you didn't finish
the trilogy, but while the ending of TIGANA was anti-climactic to a degree
it was a full and satisfying ending. The Dragonbone Chair trilogy on the other
hand was so disapointing I almost threw the book across the room. I wish
he had taken ANOTHER five or six years and given it a proper ending!
Chris
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good evening London. Its nine | "Repent Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman |
o'clock and this is The Voice |------------------------------------------|
of Fate" V for Vendetta | Can you say "Genevieve Felice Marshall"? |
Raolin Darksbane
>> Personally IMHO, I found TIGANA to be extremely disapointing, I ending
>>I found to be ANTI-climatic. I would rate The Dragonbone Chair well
>>above Tigana in all respects expect maybe the use un-neccessary use of
>>rather long-winded words. =)
>>
>Was the smiley meant for long winded words, or for the concept that TIGANA
>was more Anti-Climatic than Dragonbone Chair? If the latter, well and good,
>if the former... Did we read the same books? Perhaps you didn't finish
>the trilogy, but while the ending of TIGANA was anti-climactic to a degree
>it was a full and satisfying ending. The Dragonbone Chair trilogy on the other
>hand was so disapointing I almost threw the book across the room. I wish
>he had taken ANOTHER five or six years and given it a proper ending!
I've read the entire trilogy.
True on both counts. Yes, Tigana had too much of Kay demonstrating his
superior vocabulary greater than that of mere mortals.
BUT while I found both anti-climatic, I found TIGANA to be a very
disapointing read.
> Chris
Erich Schneider
>crawford...@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>>
>> This could lead to another thread of the best and worst use of known cultures
>> in the creation of fantasy worlds...
>>
>Best: Janny Wurtz & Raymond Feist using Korea as the basis for the
>Daughter/Servant/Mistress of empire books, IMHO.
Korea? That's a new one. The setting of the "X of the Empire" books is
based on Tekumel, the setting for the "Empire of the Petal Throne"
role-playing game. The game's creator, Prof. M.A.R. Barker, claims he
was influenced more by the cultures of Egypt, the classic Central
American civilizations, the Mughal Empire in India, and small bits
from Hellenic civilization and medieval Europe. (The languages spoken
in the "Five Empires" that the game centers around are supposedly
descended from a "Tamil-Arabic-Mayan argot" - the Tsolyani language's
structure is similar to Tamil's, the writing system is like Arabic's,
and at least one word ("sakbe") is cribbed directly from a Mayan
language.)
I do remember names like "Cho-ja" when I glanced through the
Feist/Wurtz books, which does sound superficially Korean, though.
--
Erich Schneider er...@bush.cs.tamu.edu
"The Hierophant is Disguised and Confused."
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
>In article <1993Sep5...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz> wat...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz (Alessan) writes:
>>crawford...@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>>>
>>> This could lead to another thread of the best and worst use of known cultures
>>> in the creation of fantasy worlds...
>>>
>>Best: Janny Wurtz & Raymond Feist using Korea as the basis for the
>>Daughter/Servant/Mistress of empire books, IMHO.
>Korea? That's a new one. The setting of the "X of the Empire" books is
>based on Tekumel,
No it is not. Tsurannuanni (or whatever it is called) as described in
Magician: Master was based based on a roleplaying game Feist was in,
which was again based on Tekumel. This means that there are recognisable
Tekumel elements in the book. This is mostly things like place names
and other rather unimportant details of geography. There is also the
mention of an insect people, and of 10 greater and 10 lesser gods.
These play no real role in the story.
In everything important Tsuraniannu is very different from Barkers
empire (which has a similar name that escapes me for the moment.
Tsolyanu?) The emperor/warlord conflict looks very Japanese to me.
The game of council I do not recognize, I assume that this is an
original idea. The same goes for the Assembly and City of Magicians.
These are the important parts of Feist's empire, and they are
very untekumellike.
In the Whatever of the Empire books, we get more into the details
of the culture of the empire, and it gets even less like Barker's
empire. We get a really good look at the insect people, and they
are not at all like Barker's insect people. I don't doubt that
this is because it had been pointed out to Feist that he was
ripping off Barker. If he had happened to tell more of the insect
people in Magician, they would probably have been very much like
Barker's, but he didn't and they aren't.
I know nothing of Korean culture, but I see no reason to doubt
the authors when they claim that the culture of their novels
is to a large extend based on it.
Klaus O K
Klaus Ole Kristiansen
I liked Dalkey's Eruyale, set in republican Rome, very much.
Klaus O K
Alessan
>
> No it is not. Tsurannuanni (or whatever it is called) as described in
> Magician: Master was based based on a roleplaying game Feist was in,
> which was again based on Tekumel. This means that there are recognisable
Important distinction here: you're discussing the Midkemian novels that Feist
wrote alone. I was referring to the Tsuarnuanni Empire series. I suspect Feist
only really got his act together in detailing the Tsuranuanni world when he got
together with Wurtz to write these novels. Therefore, I wouldn't all be
surprised to find that the world changed to a fairly marked degree...
>
> I know nothing of Korean culture, but I see no reason to doubt
> the authors when they claim that the culture of their novels
> is to a large extend based on it.
>
Time to be honest; I didn't go back and check the books since they're packed
away. My comment was based on recalling a dedication from the authors that
thanked some people for allowing them to stay at their home in Korea, and
introducing them to the traditions and history of the country. That, and the
feel of the world in the books, gives me the impression that this is what they
based the Tsuranuanni society/politics/traditions on...
Jean Goodrich
My favorite has to be Patricia Kennealy's Keltiad:
_The Copper Crown_, _The Silver Branch_, The Throne of Scone_
Also, _The Hawk's Grey Feather_.
These are all based upon the irish/celtic culture.
Jean Goodrich
-rohan-+Dunkerson C.B.
>_The Copper Crown_, _The Silver Branch_, The Throne of Scone_
>
I've always enjoyed looking for historical references in books. I've been
reading Mercedes Lackey of late and there are quite a few in there;
The Shin'a'in (sp?) are quite obviously based on native american culture though
somewhat of a hodgepodge of that and based after the introduction of the horse.
Kerowyn's mercenary band is organized and fights like the mongols (so much so
that I doubt it could be coincidence)
And of course the very NAME Valdemar is taken directly from the historic
original.
--
Conrad B. Dunkerson -- con...@novalink.com
Bertrand de Levinwir -- con...@usl.com
Raun Kupiec
Exactly. I'm entirely fed-up with the typical fantasy model where the
heros & heroines come from some pseudo-Anglic culture, generally
farming oriented, in a world with Germanic/Scandinavian cultures to
the North, African cultures to the South, Asian cultures to the East,
and a couple of sort of medieval European-ish or Middle Eastern cities
thrown in. That describes 90% of all 20th century fantasy written.
Blah. You'd think writers attempting to be creative and produce
fantasy could come up with something more original than just combining
everyone's favorite historical periods (from the subset of historical
periods which had swords) into a one page map on the frontispiece.
--
Raun Kupiec Department of Political Science
rku...@athena.mit.edu Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Judith Ellen Ghirardelli
Raolin Darksbane <dc...@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
>>>I found to be ANTI-climatic. I would rate The Dragonbone Chair well
>>>above Tigana in all respects expect maybe the use un-neccessary use of
>>>rather long-winded words. =)
>>>
>
>>Was the smiley meant for long winded words, or for the concept that TIGANA
>>was more Anti-Climatic than Dragonbone Chair? If the latter, well and good,
>>if the former... Did we read the same books? Perhaps you didn't finish
>>the trilogy, but while the ending of TIGANA was anti-climactic to a degree
>>it was a full and satisfying ending. The Dragonbone Chair trilogy on the other
>>hand was so disapointing I almost threw the book across the room. I wish
>>he had taken ANOTHER five or six years and given it a proper ending!
>
> I've read the entire trilogy.
> True on both counts. Yes, Tigana had too much of Kay demonstrating his
>superior vocabulary greater than that of mere mortals.
>BUT while I found both anti-climatic, I found TIGANA to be a very
>disapointing read.
>
>
>> Chris
I too was disappointed with the ending the first time I read _Tigana_.
But for some reason, I read it again, and from that time on I loved it, and
I loved the ending (the second time). Below are my reasons (SPOILERS if you
have not finished the book).
I HATED (the first time) the fact that Dianora did not kill Brandin or avenge
Tigana. I hated that Beard never found her. And I hated that Brandin never
even KNEW she was from Tigana. I had wished that when she did that jump thing
off the cliffs of Chiara to get the ring that she had foiled Brandin by
dying.
And then I read it again, and I saw so much more the second time through.
In the prologue we see Dianora's father and he thinks something like "It
was hard to hear the enemy soldiers singing and still hate them. But he
was not really a soldier, and he had never been any good at hating". That
just summed up Dianora for me. She tried to hate Brandin. She tried to
avenge Tigana. But deep down inside, she was too much like her father. She
just could not hate someone who had done an awful thing out of grief and pain.
How novel it was that she just watched Brandin die, and then killed herself.
She was afraid that if Valentin knew who she was, he would hate her and be
disappointed in her. But he himself did know it is her, and he saw her
arrive there with hate and a plan for revenge, but he saw love grow to fight
the hate, and the love won. Valentin understood Dianora. Which was more than
I did the first time I read the book.
I think I was disappointed because the bad guy did not get his quite the way I
had first wanted. But after re-reading, I knew that the bad guy was not
Brandin, but that other wizard (can't remember his name). Brandin was not
Black nor White, but Grey. Most people in life are like this. I think
Agatha Cristie (sp?) said that every murderer is someone's dear old friend.
Brandin was filled with pain and grief for his son, and love for Dianora.
These two things were at odds (although he never knew it).
So that is why I love _Tigana_, even though I did not like it the first time
through. I was also (maybe) disappointed because I expected a typical fantasy
ending, big battle, good guys against bad guys, with me hating the bad guys
so much. I thought Dianora would be reunited with Beard. But I don't think
that would have been the happy ending I was expecting, because I think Beard had
less of their father in them than Dianora did, and I don't think he would have
understood Dianora's love. _Tigana_ did not give the typical happy ending.
Just because it is new, unexpected, and untraditional does not mean it is not
a good book. It is because of these things that I loved it.
Just my opinions.... Did anyone else have similar experience after re-reading
it??
Judy G.
>--
> | Donald Chow | dc...@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca |
> | I'll get some sleep when I'm dead! |
> \ De-Alcoholized Beer? What's up the point? /
> || "Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin!" ||
Helmut Geyer
:>I too was disappointed with the ending the first time I read _Tigana_.
:>But for some reason, I read it again, and from that time on I loved it, and
:>I loved the ending (the second time). Below are my reasons (SPOILERS if you
:>have not finished the book).
:>I HATED (the first time) the fact that Dianora did not kill Brandin or avenge
:>Tigana. I hated that Beard never found her. And I hated that Brandin never
:>even KNEW she was from Tigana. I had wished that when she did that jump thing
:>off the cliffs of Chiara to get the ring that she had foiled Brandin by
:>dying.
I would not go that far, I really liked the book the first tim I read it, but
I fully agree with you that reading it a second time did push the book
nearly on top of my most liked books list.
:>And then I read it again, and I saw so much more the second time through.
I think, you will find this with the other books of Kay, too (perhaps not
as much in the Fionavar Tapestry). It is one of the causes I like his
works that much. Always some unexpected things happen that will give the
second reading a completely different feeling. I also like it very much that
he has not these polarized good - evil conflicts like the most fantasy has.
And of course i really think he did a great job developing a fantasy culture
based on the italian culture. His characters have the depth many other writers'
are so painfully lacking. To a certain amount this holds for the Song for
Arbonne, too, even if this ending is much more conventional (but just
remember what the original poster would think of this book, if he was so
shocked on homosexuality in Tigana :-) In his books the characters are that
good modelled that they really seem to live (at least inside of me, what I
cannot say of many other authors).
But there is a second reason why I like his books (at least Tigana and ASfA).
He finishes his books without to resolve all threads he spun in the books.
This is much more satisfying in my opinion as well as more realistic. Of
course the major threads are resolved (otherwise this would not be satisfying)
but it is not as in some other books, that you have to ask yourself what all
those people are doing now that all things they had been involved in now are
gone.
:>Just my opinions.... Did anyone else have similar experience after re-reading
:>it??
Similar, yes, but not the same, I already liked it after the first time but
now I LIKE it.
:>Judy G.
[.sigs deleted :-) ]
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Helmut Geyer ge...@kalliope.iwr.uni-heidelberg.de
Sarah E. Smith
In a previous article, con...@usl.com (-rohan-+Dunkerson C.B.) says:
>And of course the very NAME Valdemar is taken directly from the historic
>original.
Forgive my stupid ignorance, but **what** historic original?
--
sarah e. smith Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo,
se...@po.cwru.edu So little time, so much to know!
--_The Yellow Submarine_
Nachison,Beth
(Sarah E. Smith) writes...
>
>In a previous article, con...@usl.com (-rohan-+Dunkerson C.B.) says:
>>And of course the very NAME Valdemar is taken directly from the historic
>>original.
>
>Forgive my stupid ignorance, but **what** historic original?
That's a very good question. I am only acquainted with it as a
given name, outside Lackey's books. (And contrary to the original
poster, I wouldn't count those among the more successful uses of
known cultures--they suffer the same defects I noted a few days ago
in the thread which spawned this one, i.e. a fundamentally shallow concept
which builds a "society" out of superficial elements without much to
serve as foundation, cement, or infrastructure. But that's sort of in
keeping with the rest of her work, which is mostly pretty shallow
no matter how you look at it.)
Michael Macchione
Plotline:
Rand begins to get bored with his studying and repeatedly gets annoyed
with Asmodean. Lanfear appears tries to convince Rand to continue to
study with him. Rand repeatedly refuses. Lanfear seduces him. They have
mad passionate sex. Rand changes his mind.
After having been hung, Mat finds that his luck is changing for the worse.
He eventually finds himself captured by the Seanchan. After getting
himself in even worse trouble with the Seanchan, he is forced to marry the
Daughter of the Nine Moons. After getting one look at her, Mat attempts
to blind himself so that he won't have to look at that hideous face. He
is stopped after only blinding one eye. On the night before the wedding
Lanfear approaches Mat, and since she pities him, they have mad passionate
sex. Mat's luck turns back around.
Perrin and Faile have marital difficulties. She keeps wanting to go out
and get into the thick of it all; He wants her safe and sound. After an
intense argument, his animal nature breaks through and he, having lost
control, runs off into the woods. Lanfear finds him and coaxes him back
to humanity. At which point, other parts of his animal nature come
through. They have mad passionate sex. Perrin learns to control his
wolven nature.
After spending so much time with the other 12 members of the Black Ajah,
Liandrin comes to the realization that she, like all members of the Red
Ajah, is a lesbian. At one point, Lanfear visits her, to give her some
new orders. Liandrin attempts to seduce Lanfear. They _don't_ have mad
passionate sex. Liandrin is toast.
While experimenting with traveling, Rand inadvertently travels back in
time to the First Age. He encounters a young man, and accidently brings
him back to the Third Age. Lanfear attempts to console the poor misplaced
man. They have mad passionate sex. Roy finally gets to know if Lanfear
is good in bed.
All of the major females in the story get upset that Lanfear has made out
eith their men and try to cut her down. Galad, now Whitecloak
captain, notices this woman being attacked by so many women who can channel
and comes to her rescue. He spirits her away from the clash. They
have mad passionate sex. During the orgasmic experience, Lanfear
discovers that he can channel. She coaches him for a while (having seen
Asmodean teach Rand), but soon the revolt finds them. They use the
Kick-ass sa-angreals and cause fires to rain down from the heavens
destroying all of the pesky females. Galad fears that he may have broken
a rule someplace and goes into hiding.
Logain makes his way to Tear, in an effort to grab Callandor. Lanfear
stops him, telling him it would destroy him. He insists that he must grab
the sword. She stops him the only way she knows how. They have extremely
mad and passionate sex. And as he plunges his "sword which isn't a sword"
into her, the two share an experience unlike any before. The experience
ungentles Logain and in a combined uncontrolled outburst of the One Power
from the two lovers a seal is broken and Ishmael is once again killed.
Logain comes into his glory as the only man in Randland that can satisfy
Lanfear.
:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):*):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)
All meant to be tongue in cheek,
Mike Macchione
Bob Gibson
I would have believed your plot would have been a tad more realistic if
you used Passionate Mad Sex (PMS) instead... :-)
Bob
--
#include <disclaim.std> /* Bob Gibson -- gib...@netcom.com */
Elizabeth Willey
was simply trying to make up something while too much under the
influence of Tolkienian vowel/consonant sounds. I seem to recall,
from my geography, that the original is in Spain, but I don't know if
it's actually supposed to mean Valley of the Sea or if it's a
coincidence, as can happen.
And, of course, Waldemar (pronounced about the same) is a personal
name---possibly archaic, but not unknown.
Elizabeth Willey
Joel Baxter
>
>I too was disappointed with the ending the first time I read _Tigana_.
>But for some reason, I read it again, and from that time on I loved it, and
>I loved the ending (the second time). Below are my reasons (SPOILERS if you
>have not finished the book).
>
[spoilers deleted]
>
>Just my opinions.... Did anyone else have similar experience after re-reading
>it??
>
I <did> appreciate Tigana more on subsequent readings, although I also liked
it quite a bit on the first reading. Kay's vocabulary didn't bother me at
all (just another data point for <that> discussion), and the various plotline
resolutions seemed very consistent with both the characters involved and with
the overall tone of the book.
I enjoy a book (generally speaking) if it can generate any emotional response,
not necessarily just "happy" ones...if an author does violence to logic,
common sense, and human nature in order to pull off an unexpected and/or
"sad" ending, of course, then that's another thing entirely. But I don't
think Kay did that, and I wouldn't really classify most of the resolutions as
"sad" anyway (although "tragic" would be appropriate, in the classical sense,
for a few of them). Things just seemed to end up the way they ought to, and
that's a mark of good writing.
Also, I liked the very last sentence of the book. Actually, in <this>
particular instance I may not have liked it very much on the first reading,
but on subsequent readings I really had to tip my hat to Kay. I won't say
more (for those of you who haven't read it), but I felt that it was a good
example of an author pulling something completely unexpected on me that still
made perfect sense in the context of the story.
Digressing just a bit: my favorite ending to an SF book, which happens to
be the same type of device (except, IMHO, used even more skillfully), is the
ending to _Rendezvous with Rama_. Anyone else get goosebumps at the end of
_Rama_, or was I the only one who didn't see that coming? Any other examples
of this type of "closer"?
JB
Donald J. Harlow
>
>And, of course, Waldemar (pronounced about the same) is a personal
>name---possibly archaic, but not unknown.
>
don't know whether it is in use today, but there were people named
Valdemar there at least as late as the early part of this century.
>
>Elizabeth Willey
--
Don Harlow do...@netcom.com
Esperanto League (Info only) (800)828-5944
Kaj altas montosuproj, nuba en aer',
La montosuproj, tronoj de la Ver'. (Matthew Arnold)
Chris Croughton
el...@ai.mit.edu (Elizabeth Willey) writes:
>Valdemar is a real place. I suspect that Lackey didn't know this, and
>was simply trying to make up something while too much under the
>influence of Tolkienian vowel/consonant sounds. I seem to recall,
>from my geography, that the original is in Spain, but I don't know if
>it's actually supposed to mean Valley of the Sea or if it's a
>coincidence, as can happen.
I have seen, and drunk, a Rose' wine called Valdemar. Quite nice,
actually. Apparently it came from the eponymous region, which I believe
is indeed in Spain.
(Sorry, I don't often have the chance to use the word 'eponymous', so I
thought I'd take the opportunity <g>).
>And, of course, Waldemar (pronounced about the same) is a personal
>name---possibly archaic, but not unknown.
There was a king called Valdemar (a cognate of Vladimir, among others)
in Sweden. I don't remember when, but someone (Ahrvid?) mentioned him
when this was discussed once before...
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