Races on Pern
vicki jean merriman
rev...@port9.boise.id.pub-ip.psi.net (Ruth Evans) writes:
>On Wed 5-Oct-1994 7:43a, Yuhri Hirata wrote:
>YH> Okay, cool. Robinton is speculatively black and Lessa is Eurasian, did you
>I've seen this before and I don't understand it. Anne McCaffrey apparently
>collaborated with Robin Wood heavily when Robin was compiling her pictures.
>Anne herself bought the pic of the Masterharper. In his portrait done by
>Robin Wood, Robinton does not appear to be black and Lessa does not appear to
>be Eurasian.
>Then again, if the world goes anything like the USA, we'll be such a melting
>pot of nationalities/races by then who knows! I have to fill out these horrid
>forms every year about my students that state their race. What do I put for
>the child who is half Caucasian and half Chinese? (When I finally asked him
>what he considered himself. He said, "I'm human." I like that answer!) What
>about the year I had a child whose father was white and his mother was black.
>Then the other child had a black father and a Vietnamese mother. I personally
>believe that within a few more hundred years the race distinctions will be
>slowly disappearing. CULTURALAL differences might still exist. I sure hope
>we get past the bigotry that is often associated with race. For heaven's
>sake, we're all human!
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN - I agree 100%. Everyone else on this thread seems
determined to continue 20thC racial distinctions into the future and into
a 2000 year old society who didn't have a large gene pool to begin with.
What I think that a number of people don't realize, is that by even
discussing racial types on Pern we are using our current racial
distinctions and prejudice to taint Pern. I won't go so far as to
say that its bigotry, but it is certainly prejudice. It's as though some
people need to pigeonhole the characters. Robinton's black (but, of
course, it doesn't make any difference - he's the Masterharper).
Lessa's eurasian and *she* is the Weyrwoman. Isn't that fine. By
even discussing the issue we are, defacto, giving it more importance than
it should have.
BTW - We need a little box marked human. Perhaps we should start
compaigning for something like that. Sort of like the Miss/Mrs/Ms
boxes. A box that says "what difference does it make?"
>Need a Pernese example for multi-ethnicity in names? Kwan Marceau (DD p. 11)
> __ ___ __ ^^^^^^^^^^^^BINGO
>__ ////\ /\/\ /\/ _//\ __ ///|Anne McCaffrey: Master Word Crafter |
>\\\//// '\/ \/ / /\/ '\\\\/// |Princess: Cutest Wiggle Tail Ever! |
> \XX/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\__/\/\/ \XX/ |rev...@port9.boise.id.pub-ip.psi.net |
__________________
Vicki Merriman - vmer...@indiana.edu
|***ITS TIME November 7 - Ask me for details***|
Antone F. Johnson
vicki jean merriman <vmer...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>AMEN, AMEN, AMEN - I agree 100%. Everyone else on this thread seems
>determined to continue 20thC racial distinctions into the future and into
>a 2000 year old society who didn't have a large gene pool to begin with.
>
>What I think that a number of people don't realize, is that by even
>discussing racial types on Pern we are using our current racial
>distinctions and prejudice to taint Pern. I won't go so far as to
>say that its bigotry, but it is certainly prejudice. It's as though some
>people need to pigeonhole the characters. Robinton's black (but, of
>course, it doesn't make any difference - he's the Masterharper).
>Lessa's eurasian and *she* is the Weyrwoman. Isn't that fine. By
>even discussing the issue we are, defacto, giving it more importance than
>it should have.
Um... I think you're beating a dead horse here. The subject is of interest
to me (and probably to others) merely because in casting a Pern movie, real
20th-century actors will be employed, and like it or not, they have visible
racial characteristics. There seem to be a real possibility of using
non-white actors in the film, an event which is all too rare in mainstream
cinema.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Antone Johnson < "No love is too pure to give to the world
Columbia Law School > In her naivety / Or too tender to
af...@columbia.edu < caress with a simple kiss" --Erasure
Magao
>In <19941006.7...@port9.boise.id.pub-ip.psi.net>
> rev...@port9.boise.id.pub-ip.psi.net (Ruth Evans) writes:
>>On Wed 5-Oct-1994 7:43a, Yuhri Hirata wrote:
>>YH> Okay, cool. Robinton is speculatively black and Lessa is Eurasian, did you
>determined to continue 20thC racial distinctions into the future and into
>a 2000 year old society who didn't have a large gene pool to begin with.
>What I think that a number of people don't realize, is that by even
>discussing racial types on Pern we are using our current racial
>distinctions and prejudice to taint Pern. I won't go so far as to
I think what some people are forgetting here is that this discussion arose
out of a casting discussion for the movie, in which what someone's colour is
*is* important. In my case, I would like to hear directly from the DragonLady
about it (guess I'll have to write to her :) I don't see that it matters on
a personal level, but you must admit that a difference in skin colour *is* a
difference in skin colour, even though it (should) have no effect on the
person themself. I am white (well, kinda pinkish, with a bit of a
mediterranean look even though I am completely anglo-celtic ...). Having
been an exchange student (and involved with the AFS program for some time)
I now have (extra) siblings ... Thai, Japanese, half-Japanese/half-germanic
Brasilian ... I can say that I am about as non-racist as can be. However,
I don't deny that there *are* distinctions in colour and social/cultural
groupings, usually linked together. Hell, I'm in a social grouping (I think ;)
The way I've seen the discussion, most people here seem to be in the same
position as me ... not concerned about what race someone is, but interested
in an academic, or mere "want to know" way. I would like to know wh at colour
Robinton (for instance) is, but it wouldn't change my feelings about him
(although it *may* change my mental picture ...). Lessa has always seemed
(in my eyes) to look a lot like my sister ... small, fairly delicate features,
black hair, and a possible asian cast to her features (when my sister was on
exchange in Thailand her host father would say to people who asked merely
that she had an Australian mother ... with tongue firmly in cheek). Anyway,
my image seems to coincide quite well with what she is supposed to look like.
I never actually saw Robinton as black (although, now I can definitely see
the possibility). OTOH, I've always had the impression that Sebell was
of quite dark skin, although not black ... probably mixed blood.
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Tim Delaney u925...@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au
J Greely
(Magao) writes:
>OTOH, I've always had the impression that Sebell was of quite dark
>skin, although not black ... probably mixed blood.
I believe this comes from his early appearances in DragonSinger, where
I recall him being referred to as "the brown man". I haven't read it
in years, but this certainly led me to conclude both that he was
naturally dark-skinned and that most of the other people Menolly was
familiar with weren't. Then again, I'm not even sure if I've got the
right novel, so take that with a grain.
--
J Greely (jgr...@synopsys.com)
Jim Emmons
this. I too felt that Robinton was black, much like an actor whose name
escapes me - with a voice much like James Earl Jones, but better - for
singing, don't you know.
Her reply was that I should re-read *DragonsDawn*, where she quite
specifically states that the colony was made up of white Irish and was
single race - Caucasian. While I realize that for PC sake, a movie may
have to be multi-cultural (which is really *stupid* [think about it -
there won't be a quiz later.] Hint: Small pop, 2000 years, no outside
influences, no ethnic bigotry, etc.... :-), some of us who have really
*read* the books should know better.
Jim Emmons
jem...@mailhost.primenet.com
The worst evil on the planet today is government.
The worst villain in history is Alexander Hamilton.
The two are related - bastards both.
Eric Rosenberg
: In article <377s7o$c...@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au> u925...@uow.edu.au
: (Magao) writes:
: >OTOH, I've always had the impression that Sebell was of quite dark
: >skin, although not black ... probably mixed blood.
: I believe this comes from his early appearances in DragonSinger, where
: I recall him being referred to as "the brown man". I haven't read it
However, there was a comment by Piemer in DragonDrums thet Sebell had
aquired a tan, therefore he probably was not to dark skin.
Eric Rosenberg
--
She stared at her vast mistake and thought: The eighth deadly sin
is really stupidity. And ignorance.
Lois McMaster Bujold - "Spirit Ring"
vicki jean merriman
>In article <CxC5v...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
>vicki jean merriman <vmer...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
[snip annoyed comments of imposing race on Pern]
>Um... I think you're beating a dead horse here. The subject is of interest
>to me (and probably to others) merely because in casting a Pern movie, real
>20th-century actors will be employed, and like it or not, they have visible
>racial characteristics. There seem to be a real possibility of using
>non-white actors in the film, an event which is all too rare in mainstream
>cinema.
I don't like it, and I don't think that I am beating a dead horse. The
only way we will ever get rid of racism is to ignore color when it rears
its ugly little head. (Although I'm not naive enough to think that it won't
take multiple generations - every little bit helps). People are people.
As far 20th C actors having visible racial characteristics, this is true
to a certain extent, but there are (I am sure) lots and lots of mixed
heritage actors who are talented who would love to be hired (and whose
genetic background is your basic stew). For example, there was a
charcter on the last season of Highlander who has, unfortunately, been
written out of the show. I believe that the actor was half black and
half italien (or something like that). Adrien Paul's wife is an actress
with a very mixed heritage. I'm sure there are plenty of actors and
actresses who could people Pern realistically.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Antone Johnson < "No love is too pure to give to the world
>Columbia Law School > In her naivety / Or too tender to
>af...@columbia.edu < caress with a simple kiss" --Erasure
___________________________
Vicki Merriman
Indiana Law School
vmer...@indiana.edu
Melanie L Chang
: I don't like it, and I don't think that I am beating a dead horse. The
: only way we will ever get rid of racism is to ignore color when it rears
: its ugly little head. (Although I'm not naive enough to think that it won't
: take multiple generations - every little bit helps). People are people.
I'd rather not ignore color, thanks very much. Personally, I'm proud of
mine. The problem I have and have had with your position is, that in
this day and age, American culture is, predominantly, derived from
Western European culture. Different "colors" are allied with different
cultures. If you want to ignore my color, does that mean you want to
ignore my culture too? After all, it is a way in which I differ from you
(I am assuming you're not Korean). This has a lot to do with
assimilation vs. acceptance. When we "ignore" color and culture, and try
to "judge" everyone by the same standard, too often the default color is
"white" and the default culture is "Western European." I am American, and
therefore I am comfortable with most aspects of this culture, because I
was raised that way. I don't want, however, to give up or deny other
aspects of my heritage, or have them be totally ignored by others,
because you think it would be racist. (BTW, this is /not/ a flame
against white people. :)
Yes, people are people, but we are not all the same--we are marvelously
varied, and this only becomes a problem when value judgments are attached
to the differences.
And now, back to Pern...
--
_
/ \ _-'
_/| \-''- _ /
__-' { | \
/ \
/ "o. |o }
| \ ; Peace,
', Melanie L. Chang
\_ __\ Department of Anthropology
''-_ \.// University of Pennsylvania
/ '-____'
/ ** May the wolves run by your side,
_' not at your heels. **
_-'
Tom
: A couple of years ago, I got on C$serve and asked Ms. McCaffrey about
: this. I too felt that Robinton was black, much like an actor whose name
: escapes me - with a voice much like James Earl Jones, but better - for
: singing, don't you know.
I always felt that based on the descriptions in the book, he looked
and sounded a lot like Danny Kaye. Of course, he was modeled after
a local harper in Ireland.
: Her reply was that I should re-read *DragonsDawn*, where she quite
: specifically states that the colony was made up of white Irish and was
: single race - Caucasian. While I realize that for PC sake, a movie may
: have to be multi-cultural (which is really *stupid* [think about it -
: there won't be a quiz later.] Hint: Small pop, 2000 years, no outside
: influences, no ethnic bigotry, etc.... :-), some of us who have really
: *read* the books should know better.
She seems to be forgetting some people. The Wangs are definitely
described as oriental. Also, in ' The Chronicles of Pern' (not
a book I reccomend) P.90 <paperback>, she remarks about the Hanrahan's
"fosterlings, there seem to be at least one representative from every
ethnic group."
- Tom Burke
PS Of course, the ethnicity of the characters has not played any
bearing on my enjoyment of her books.
--
-- ^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^
"I have seen that those who are incompetent, may have better staying power than
those who are competent, because they better present the company image." - Tom
-- ^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^
amanda lee king
: A couple of years ago, I got on C$serve and asked Ms. McCaffrey about
: this. I too felt that Robinton was black, much like an actor whose name
: escapes me - with a voice much like James Earl Jones, but better - for
: singing, don't you know.
: Her reply was that I should re-read *DragonsDawn*, where she quite
: specifically states that the colony was made up of white Irish and was
: single race - Caucasian.
While this may be from Ms. McCaffrey, it's not correct. I never
particularly thought of Alaskan or Japanese (to name a few) of being
"white Irish." I think someone else needs to re-read DD.
Amanda King kin...@wfu.edu
ak...@imsa.edu
dabe...@argo.acs.oakland.edu
the Mastersmith?
Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ
: its ugly little head. (Although I'm not naive enough to think that it won't
: take multiple generations - every little bit helps). People are people.
Ahem, crying racism because people are trying to figure out what 'racial'
background the characters in the Pern books hail from is a bit
reactionary. To discuss race is to be racist? It's a simple matter of
'what does So and So look like?' As to ignoring color... how exactly do
you describe what someone looks like while ignoring color? Actually I
suspect the racial dispersal going on in Pern is meant to AVOID a label
of racism... since all previous indication was that Pern was exclusively
caucasian with very few oriental and other non-european ancestors.
: As far 20th C actors having visible racial characteristics, this is true
: to a certain extent, but there are (I am sure) lots and lots of mixed
: heritage actors who are talented who would love to be hired (and whose
: with a very mixed heritage. I'm sure there are plenty of actors and
: actresses who could people Pern realistically.
This would be all very well and good if that was what was happening.
However, it seems that there are going to distinctive racial
characteristics among the various characters. Robinton being black and
Lessa being oriental have been discussed... both rather different than
longstanding descriptions of these people (both were based on actual
people AM knew) and various artistic representations which have received
the AM <seal of approval> in the past.
--
Conrad B. Dunkerson > Bertrand de Levinwir > con...@earth.planet.net
Laura Johnson
: Jim Emmons (jem...@mailhost.primenet.com) wrote:
: : Her reply was that I should re-read *DragonsDawn*, where she quite
: : specifically states that the colony was made up of white Irish and was
: : single race - Caucasian. While I realize that for PC sake, a movie may
: : have to be multi-cultural (which is really *stupid* [think about it -
: : there won't be a quiz later.] Hint: Small pop, 2000 years, no outside
: : influences, no ethnic bigotry, etc.... :-), some of us who have really
: : *read* the books should know better.
: She seems to be forgetting some people. The Wangs are definitely
: described as oriental. Also, in ' The Chronicles of Pern' (not
: a book I reccomend) P.90 <paperback>, she remarks about the Hanrahan's
: "fosterlings, there seem to be at least one representative from every
: ethnic group."
Consistency was never AM's strong point.
IMHO, regardless of the "actual" ethnic makeup of Pern, a multi-ethnic
movie would be just fine. Movies are never 100% accurate to the books
they're based on, and the ethnic makeup of Pern is a teeny-tiny detail;
so what if they change it?
Yeah... it seems likely that the population would have homogenized itself
by Lessa's time, but again, IMHO it's not a big deal. It would bother
me more if they made Lessa tall than if they made her black.
--
Laura Johnson
lau...@fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard NSMD
Ft. Collins, CO
Lee Ann Rucker
A thread on CIS quite a while back was choosing actors to play Pern
characters. Physical descriptions in the books were ignored, mostly. We
agreed early on that after so long, racial types would be mixed, people
would not marry based on skin color, and preference should be given to
mixed type actors. James Earl Jones was chosen for Robinton, because of
his very distinctive voice. Despite the earlier agreement, thereafter all
suggestions for his wife (drat, forgot her name) were for black actresses.
Sharon Fisher
characters of Sebell and Robinton as being black. I wonder how much
of that is due to unconscious programming of blacks being
'entertainers.'
--
...................................................
s...@netcom.com
"But love has two sides. One is 'to give joy,' and
the other is 'to suffer with.' To make their
suffering less, we suffer with them, we
share their suffering; that is love."
.............................................
Matt Lih
>It strikes me as interesting that people are associating primarily the
>characters of Sebell and Robinton as being black. I wonder how much
>of that is due to unconscious programming of blacks being
>'entertainers.'
>
>--
>...................................................
>s...@netcom.com
>
I dunno about Robinton, but the McCaffrey's description of Sebell sounds
as if Sebell could be black. So does the description of Moreta's lover
(dang, I can't remember the name) and his sister. Nothing to do with
entertainment, here.
Now that I think about it, after how many thousand years, one would think
that Pern has become somewhat homogenous, especially among the weyrs.
As Joe Haldeman extrapolated, people would look vaguely Polynesian.
Matt Lih (l...@venice.sedd.trw.com)
engman bridget
As to Sebell being black:
I reread the Harper Hall books this wknd, and he is distinctly
referred to as "tanned" -- Piemur uses this info to infer a trip
to the Southern Continent. He would have to be an extremely
light-skinned black person for this to be noticeable.
Not that he couldn't be black in the movie. :)
bengman
--
BENGMAN * KERMIT: He puts his pants on one leg at a time, like me!
Bridget Engman * FOZZIE: You aren't wearing any pants.
ben...@uxa.cso * KERMIT: There! Let's see HIM get away with that
.uiuc.edu * on television!
Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ
: It strikes me as interesting that people are associating primarily the
: characters of Sebell and Robinton as being black. I wonder how much
: of that is due to unconscious programming of blacks being
: 'entertainers.'
Probably none since the part about Robinton being black comes from a
rumor about the casting and the part about Sebell being black comes from
the fact that he's called the 'brown man' in the text.
David Hough
con...@earth.planet.net (Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ) writes:
>Sharon Fisher (s...@netcom.com) wrote:
>: It strikes me as interesting that people are associating primarily the
>: characters of Sebell and Robinton as being black. I wonder how much
>: of that is due to unconscious programming of blacks being
>: 'entertainers.'
>
>Probably none since the part about Robinton being black comes from a
>rumor about the casting and the part about Sebell being black comes from
>the fact that he's called the 'brown man' in the text.
>
black due to the sun when his ship arrives at Cove Hold? That does imply
that he wasn't normally that colour.
Dave
--
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* G4WRW @ GB7WRW.#41.GBR.EU AX25 * *
* da...@llondel.demon.co.uk Internet * Stop the World! I want to get off! *
* g4...@g4wrw.ampr.org Amprnet * *
*****************************************************************************
Janice E. Dawley
> In article <slfCxt...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Sharon Fisher) writes:
>>It strikes me as interesting that people are associating primarily the
>>characters of Sebell and Robinton as being black. I wonder how much
>>of that is due to unconscious programming of blacks being
>>'entertainers.'
> I dunno about Robinton, but the McCaffrey's description of Sebell sounds
> as if Sebell could be black. So does the description of Moreta's lover
> (dang, I can't remember the name) and his sister. Nothing to do with
> entertainment, here.
>
> Now that I think about it, after how many thousand years, one would think
> that Pern has become somewhat homogenous, especially among the weyrs.
> As Joe Haldeman extrapolated, people would look vaguely Polynesian.
Not necessarily. If I'm not mistaken, the reason that people right here on
Earth have different skin colors is that for many thousands of years, getting
from, say, Africa to Scandinavia or vice versa, was an arduous and seldom
attempted task. Thus, different gene pools did not mix much, and local
genetic drift reflected strongly on the population. I've heard that pale skin
amongst the Scandinavian peoples was one such drift that proved useful in
Northern climes because it allows easier synthesis of Vitamin A in an
environment short on sunlight... Dunno how much of a part this actually played.
Anyway, the point is that when genetic pools are isolated from one
another, they diverge in many ways, some of which are related to the
environment and some of which seem completely random. The process reverses
only when populations converge to an extent that breeding between different
gene pools becomes extensive. Pern, by all accounts, is NOT a highly mobile
society, apart from the dragonriders themselves, and perhaps the various
craft groups (Smiths, Harpers, etc.) The way McCaffery describes the Holders,
they seem suspicious of outsiders and rather narrow-minded in general. So,
you would expect that groups on Pern would have DIVERGED rather than converged
over time, especially during the hundreds of years when Fort was the only
operative Weyr.
As for McCaffery's characters themselves... as far as I know, everyone
in the Dragonrider and Harper Hall books is white. When McCaffery talks about
people being "dark," it refers to their hair color, much in the way of fairy
tales. When I was reading and re-reading the Dragon books as a teenager, I
didn't think to wonder about this amazing homogeneity, but it certainly bugs
me now. In a revisionist twist, Robin Wood, in her book of drawings/paintings
_The People of Pern_, made an effort to diversify the racial palette somewhat
(mostly in the minor characters: Shonagar, Talmor, Nerilka, K'van and most
notably Brekke as Native American/Asian & one token black character in Amania).
Even this must have been hard to do without actually contradicting the texts.
Anne McCaffery was involved in the whole process and seemed to have a pretty
clear idea of what most of her characters should look like, to the point of
some of them being based on real people -- specifically Robinton, Jaxom,
Menolly and Moreta.
If there is any question what the books say, just take another look.
Personally, I would love it if, when casting the movie, they made MOST of
the characters non-white. After all, we ARE talking about an entire world
here, not Ireland!
--Janice
Xamayca
(engman bridget) writes:
>I reread the Harper Hall books this wknd, and he is distinctly
>referred to as "tanned" -- Piemur uses this info to infer a trip
>to the Southern Continent. He would have to be an extremely
>light-skinned black person for this to be noticeable.
No he wouldn't My father is regularly milk chocolate and after a week of
shirtless tennis playing he browns quite nicely. The rest of our family
are varying lighter shades of brown, but I wouldn't call any of us
'extremely light skinned', and we tan quite noticeably. In fact I can't
think of a single person related to me who doesn't tan noticeably, and we
are quite a range of colours.
ita.
Anetta Meriranta Pirinen
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 15:01:53 GMT
Organization: home, Cambridge, UK
Reply-To: seas...@pirinen.demon.co.uk
X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.27
Lines: 35
On the whole subject of races of Pern, as I've not read a single of
the books I don't know much of the world, but I did hear one panel in
the last worldcon where Anne McCaffrey was present. Somewhere along the
discussion -- the panel wasn't about Pern, but things tended to go that
way once in a while -- a possible film about Pern AND the races of Pern
came up. I don't remember clearly what Ms McCaffrey exactly said, but
from what she said I made an assumption that the Pern humankind was
multiracial as she made comments on actors from different racial
backrounds. (No, I don't remember any names. I'm sorry, I wasn't much
interested.)
In article <38ebqo$9...@ankh.iia.org> jolo...@iia.org "Leah Jolovich" writes:
> Sharon Fisher (s...@netcom.com) wrote:
> : It strikes me as interesting that people are associating primarily the
> : characters of Sebell and Robinton as being black. I wonder how much
> : of that is due to unconscious programming of blacks being
> : 'entertainers.'
>
> For me it has nothing to do with that. What it has to do with is my
> personal feeling that James Earl Jones has the most beautiful voice I
> have ever heard......and I would not care if he were green with orange
> polka-dots.
I agree. Last weekend we watched an old Simpsons rerun from Sky just to
hear him perform Poe's "The Raven". What a voice! (And a great actor
otherwise, too.)
Anetta
--
"Life? Of course I have a life! It's a life filled with books."
A. Meriranta Pirinen
"Things get around to taking place. If they're gonna happen at all."
-- R.E.M.
D. A. Scocca
Janice E. Dawley <jda...@moose.uvm.edu> wrote:
[quoting]
>> Now that I think about it, after how many thousand years, one would think
>> that Pern has become somewhat homogenous, especially among the weyrs.
>> As Joe Haldeman extrapolated, people would look vaguely Polynesian.
>Not necessarily. If I'm not mistaken, the reason that people right here on
>Earth have different skin colors is that for many thousands of years, getting
>from, say, Africa to Scandinavia or vice versa, was an arduous and seldom
>attempted task. Thus, different gene pools did not mix much, and local
>genetic drift reflected strongly on the population.
[...]
> Anyway, the point is that when genetic pools are isolated from one
>another, they diverge in many ways, some of which are related to the
>environment and some of which seem completely random.
[...]
>over time, especially during the hundreds of years when Fort was the only
>operative Weyr.
[...]
The problem is the difference between "hundreds of years" and "a few
thousand years" and the several thousands of years such adaptation
took here in real life. If you check McCaffrey's timeline from
landing to the most recent stories, I believe you have nowhere near
enough time to have such changes on Pern.
Interbreeding among subpopulations can reduce distinctiveness far far
more quickly than isolation in different environments can bring it
about.
D.
--
* The Minstrel in the Gallery "Heteroskedastic" *
* D. A. Scocca sco...@gibbs.oit.unc.edu *
* "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only *
* release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes *
Satan
looks very oriental to me. If the founding races of Pern were scientists and
gypsies, et al, then all races would be represented, and by now a hybrid race
would be the predominant one on Pern.
vicki jean merriman
>
>> Now that I think about it, after how many thousand years, one would think
>> that Pern has become somewhat homogenous, especially among the weyrs.
>> As Joe Haldeman extrapolated, people would look vaguely Polynesian.
>
>Not necessarily. If I'm not mistaken, the reason that people right here on
>Earth have different skin colors is that for many thousands of years, getting
>from, say, Africa to Scandinavia or vice versa, was an arduous and seldom
>attempted task. Thus, different gene pools did not mix much, and local
>another, they diverge in many ways, some of which are related to the
>environment and some of which seem completely random. The process reverses
>only when populations converge to an extent that breeding between different
>gene pools becomes extensive. Pern, by all accounts, is NOT a highly mobile
Sorry not to snip more of this but I though the explanation was needed
so that your premise didn't get lost. BTW - this was done to the nth
degree no less than two weeks ago.
Your underlying facts are correct but your conclusions are wrong. Pern
had a population of no more than 6,000 I think, after all the people who
died from the first incursion of thread died. (bad sentence structure,
sorry).
Differences in human racial features were environmentally adapted over
hundreds of thousands of years, not 2000 years. With the small starting
population Pern's gene pool would have converged. It takes major
amounts of time to diverge. Pern simply didn't have the time. Besides,
everyone started out together from Fort. They spread from Fort and they
wouldn't have settled Pern based on genetic differences. So if there
were enough blacks and asians in the original gene pool, everyone would
wind up looking polynesian as the first poster stated, or actually I
prefer the Hawaiian type, which is currently a blend of many races
(current hawaiians, not the original peoples).
>some of them being based on real people -- specifically Robinton, Jaxom,
>Menolly and Moreta.
That explains why Menolly is, to put it politely, very plain. I
wondered why the artist took such pains to draw such an unflattering
picture. Even if she kept the persons facial features she could surely
have drawn a more flattering picture.
> If there is any question what the books say, just take another look.
>--Janice
___
Vicki Merriman - vmer...@indiana.edu
**Bugs crawl under doors - Programs crawl under Windoze**
Eloise
>
>It strikes me as interesting that people are associating primarily the
>characters of Sebell and Robinton as being black. I wonder how much
>of that is due to unconscious programming of blacks being
>'entertainers.'
Also, I think, with the fact that Sebell is directly called 'the brown
man' several times. Due to this alone, I always pictured him with a
kind of cafe-au-lait complexion. Dunno why they think Robinton is, tho.
Didn't Robby-boy have bright blue eyes? Hmm. Not that interbreeding can't
make even something as extreme as a redhead with slanted eyes and dark
skin. :->
Just my 32nd-mark.
>--
>...................................................
>s...@netcom.com
>
>"But love has two sides. One is 'to give joy,' and
>the other is 'to suffer with.' To make their
>suffering less, we suffer with them, we
>share their suffering; that is love."
>.............................................
Eloise.
Kandi K. Hopkins
: wouldn't have settled Pern based on genetic differences. So if there
: were enough blacks and asians in the original gene pool, everyone would
: wind up looking polynesian as the first poster stated, or actually I
: prefer the Hawaiian type, which is currently a blend of many races
: (current hawaiians, not the original peoples).
Wouldn't there also occasionally be a genetic "throwback" (for lack of a
better term) who was very white, asian or black looking? Such a "pure
strain" would be very exotic and attractive, wouldn't you think?
: >some of them being based on real people -- specifically Robinton, Jaxom,
: >Menolly and Moreta.
: That explains why Menolly is, to put it politely, very plain. I
: wondered why the artist took such pains to draw such an unflattering
: picture. Even if she kept the persons facial features she could surely
: have drawn a more flattering picture.
I always thought that Menolly was *supposed* to be plain, tall and
awkward unless she was performing.
--
Kandi Hopkins, Columbus, OH
ka...@infinet.com
Where past and future are gathered.
Neither movement from nor towards,
Neither ascent nor decline.
Except for the point, the still point
There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.
I can only say *there* we have been: but I cannot say where...
-TS Eliot
Leah Jolovich
: Wouldn't there also occasionally be a genetic "throwback" (for lack of a
: better term) who was very white, asian or black looking? Such a "pure
: strain" would be very exotic and attractive, wouldn't you think?
Well, it would be interesting, to be certain....but we must remember that
we are dealing with people here, not, for example, Alessan's prized
strain of racing runners. Somehow I don't think the freewilled Pernese
would take "Okay, you have to breed <I use this term purposely> with this
person because of the 'pure strain'" all that well. Just a thought.
: --
: Kandi Hopkins, Columbus, OH
: ka...@infinet.com
: Where past and future are gathered.
: Neither movement from nor towards,
: Neither ascent nor decline.
: Except for the point, the still point
: There would be no dance, and there is only the dance.
: I can only say *there* we have been: but I cannot say where...
:
: -TS Eliot
Hawke
K.M.Sperling
Satan <emc...@mailserv.mta.ca> wrote:
Yes, and Kitti Ping looks black, Lessa has been given huge features
instead of the legendary tiny and dainty ones the books give her, and
Menolly looks like a complete idiot. I just ignore all pictures of
people given in the DLG and go on my merry way. :) The only person who
looks like I'd pictured him is F'nor (who, coincidentally, looks goofy in
POP, IMHO).
Cheers,
--Kathleen
Kandi K. Hopkins
: Kandi K. Hopkins (ka...@infinet.com) wrote:
: : Wouldn't there also occasionally be a genetic "throwback" (for lack of a
: : better term) who was very white, asian or black looking? Such a "pure
: : strain" would be very exotic and attractive, wouldn't you think?
: Well, it would be interesting, to be certain....but we must remember that
: we are dealing with people here, not, for example, Alessan's prized
: strain of racing runners. Somehow I don't think the freewilled Pernese
: would take "Okay, you have to breed <I use this term purposely> with this
: person because of the 'pure strain'" all that well. Just a thought.
Now wait a minute!! That's not what I meant at all! I just meant,
wouldn't such a person be considered very attractive, regardless of the
"represented race"? I never even considered that anyone would want to
"breed" them!
LeeAnn Rucker
wrote:
| Sharon Fisher (s...@netcom.com) wrote:
| : It strikes me as interesting that people are associating primarily the
| : characters of Sebell and Robinton as being black. I wonder how much
| : of that is due to unconscious programming of blacks being
| : 'entertainers.'
|
| For me it has nothing to do with that. What it has to do with is my
| personal feeling that James Earl Jones has the most beautiful voice I
| have ever heard......and I would not care if he were green with orange
| polka-dots.
When we did this on CIS, that was the primary consideration: Robinton must
be someone with a distinctive voice.
And considering that James Earl Jones was never seen in 4 films where his
voice was quite noticable, nor on the CNN bits, his skin color is not
really the first thing one thinks about.
vicki jean merriman
Kandi K. Hopkins <ka...@infinet.com> wrote:
>vicki jean merriman (vmer...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>: wind up looking polynesian as the first poster stated, or actually I
>: prefer the Hawaiian type, which is currently a blend of many races
>: (current hawaiians, not the original peoples).
>
>Wouldn't there also occasionally be a genetic "throwback" (for lack of a
>better term) who was very white, asian or black looking? Such a "pure
>strain" would be very exotic and attractive, wouldn't you think?
Absolutely. You can always have the occasional genetic throwback and
they would be considered exotic, IMO. We can never be sure just how the
genes will combine. A friend of mine who is black (he clearly has
some caucasian blood but not a major amount) married a blond woman. Their
children are _both_ blue eyed blonds. One would never know that he was
the father from looking at them superficially (and yes, he _is_ is the
father).
>I always thought that Menolly was *supposed* to be plain, tall and
>awkward unless she was performing.
She is, but I still felt that her poses were particularly designed to
show up her flaws, rather than to simply create a description drawing of
the woman.
>-- >Kandi Hopkins, Columbus, OH
>ka...@infinet.com
--
Vicki Merriman - vmer...@indiana.edu - Time Travel is Easy!
* It's the fast forward and rewind I haven't got down yet. *
mls...@imap2.asu.edu
: : wouldn't have settled Pern based on genetic differences. So if there
: : were enough blacks and asians in the original gene pool, everyone would
: : wind up looking polynesian as the first poster stated, or actually I
: : prefer the Hawaiian type, which is currently a blend of many races
: : (current hawaiians, not the original peoples).
: Wouldn't there also occasionally be a genetic "throwback" (for lack of a
: better term) who was very white, asian or black looking? Such a "pure
: strain" would be very exotic and attractive, wouldn't you think?
: : >some of them being based on real people -- specifically Robinton, Jaxom,
: : >Menolly and Moreta.
: : That explains why Menolly is, to put it politely, very plain. I
: : wondered why the artist took such pains to draw such an unflattering
: : picture. Even if she kept the persons facial features she could surely
: : have drawn a more flattering picture.
: I always thought that Menolly was *supposed* to be plain, tall and
: awkward unless she was performing.
She was, that was the point of her character. The whole reason why she
had such trouble being the daughter her father never wanted and the
musician she wanted to be.
Chelli :)
Student of dragons at ASU
: --
mls...@imap2.asu.edu
: In article <emcdnld.1...@mailserv.mta.ca>,
: Satan <emc...@mailserv.mta.ca> wrote:
: Cheers,
: --Kathleen
I agree, I read it once and looked at the pictures and put it away on the
shelf, not to be reread again unless I'm bored and out of things to
read. I personally prefer my mind's-eye pictures of the characters in
the books.
Bis dann-
Chelli :-}
Student of Dragons at ASU
mls...@imap2.asu.edu
: In article <slfCxt...@netcom.com> s...@netcom.com (Sharon Fisher) writes:
: >It strikes me as interesting that people are associating primarily the
: >characters of Sebell and Robinton as being black. I wonder how much
: >of that is due to unconscious programming of blacks being
: >'entertainers.'
: >
: >--
: >...................................................
: >s...@netcom.com
: >
: I dunno about Robinton, but the McCaffrey's description of Sebell sounds
: as if Sebell could be black. So does the description of Moreta's lover
: (dang, I can't remember the name) and his sister. Nothing to do with
: entertainment, here.
I think Robinton was like the rest of the population and Sebell was kinda
portrayed as black, but maybe he was just tanned because later it says
how Piermur noticed Sebell was tanned, and I personally never could tell
(no offense please, I truly can't) when a darker (African,Asian,or other
dark skinned peoples) are tanned. So I don't know whether or not he is
black just because of that one reference.
Sorry, I can't remember Moreta's lover, maybe I'll reread that tonight
and tell you in a day or so.
: Now that I think about it, after how many thousand years, one would think
: that Pern has become somewhat homogenous, especially among the weyrs.
: As Joe Haldeman extrapolated, people would look vaguely Polynesian.
: Matt Lih (l...@venice.sedd.trw.com)
I would think so too, but how long has earth been going and we are not
homogenous. But then again, I simplify. Pernese people came from a
limited stock so eventually, I would assume they would be homogenous.
But then again, maybe in that part of the country all his people are dark
because of the living conditions, maybe it is a hot place so all people
tan. No idea.:-}
I hope I haven't offended anyone, I'm just speculating.
Chelli :]
James Kuyper Jr
..
> I would think so too, but how long has earth been going and we are
not
> homogenous. But then again, I simplify. Pernese people came from a
> limited stock so eventually, I would assume they would be homogenous.
For most of the history of this planet, there was very little
interaction between people of different regions. This has changed
significantly only in the last few centuries.
The population of Pern was very small, and concentrated in Fort Hold.
When they finally migrated away from there, they were not very likely
to segregate themselves racially. Even if there were no further
interactions between the holds, each hold would have separately become
very homogenous, over a period of hundreds of generations. The
different holds would have become only slightly different in what kind
of homogeneity they developed, because the differences in the initial
racial mixtures would have been small. Finally, considering the small
size of the total Pernese population, the planet-wide institutions such
as the Crafts and the Weyrs would have provided more than enough
interaction to smooth out what few differences survived.
vicki jean merriman
>Kandi K. Hopkins (ka...@infinet.com) wrote:
>: Wouldn't there also occasionally be a genetic "throwback" (for lack of a
>: better term) who was very white, asian or black looking? Such a "pure
>: strain" would be very exotic and attractive, wouldn't you think?
>
>would take "Okay, you have to breed <I use this term purposely> with this
>person because of the 'pure strain'" all that well. Just a thought.
Kandi isn't saying that at all. She (?) is merely saying that when a
person happens to be born that is a genetic throwback, that the person
would be considered unusual and exotic. She isn't saying anything about
the Pernese undergoing any selective genetics. Two dark haired parents
can produce a blue eyed blonde. It is very rare, but it _can_ happen.
>: Kandi Hopkins, Columbus, OH
>Hawke
--
Vicki Merriman - vmer...@indiana.edu
Leah Jolovich
: In article <38nc37$e...@ankh.iia.org>, Leah Jolovich <jolo...@iia.org> wrote:
: >Kandi K. Hopkins (ka...@infinet.com) wrote:
: >: Wouldn't there also occasionally be a genetic "throwback" (for lack of a
: >: better term) who was very white, asian or black looking? Such a "pure
: >: strain" would be very exotic and attractive, wouldn't you think?
: >
: >strain of racing runners. Somehow I don't think the freewilled Pernese
: >would take "Okay, you have to breed <I use this term purposely> with this
: >person because of the 'pure strain'" all that well. Just a thought.
: Kandi isn't saying that at all. She (?) is merely saying that when a
: person happens to be born that is a genetic throwback, that the person
: would be considered unusual and exotic. She isn't saying anything about
: the Pernese undergoing any selective genetics. Two dark haired parents
: can produce a blue eyed blonde. It is very rare, but it _can_ happen.
It may not have been what Kandi meant to say, but in that case "pure
strain" is about as poor a choice of words as one can come up with.
Strain: (from Webster's Dictionary) "a group of presumed common ancestry
with clear-cut physiological but usually not morphological distinctions".
The operative word here being group, not individual. I thereby make no
apologies for my reply. I replied based on the particular words she chose
to use.
Hawke
Conrad Dunkerson ... Wharton NJ
: It may not have been what Kandi meant to say, but in that case "pure
: Strain: (from Webster's Dictionary) "a group of presumed common ancestry
: with clear-cut physiological but usually not morphological distinctions".
: The operative word here being group, not individual.
Strain : offspring; ancestry; an inherited or natural character or
tendency. All from Websters, and all far more in keeping with what was
being said.
The very fact that the passage began with reference to a hypothetical
"occaisional throwback" makes it obvious that this is a chance occurence
in an individual rather than a deliberate breeding of a group. YES,
strain can mean a group which has been bred. However, that is not it's
only meaning. It obviously doesn't mean that in this case given the
context. "Pure strain" in this case refers to 'pure ancestry' or 'pure
characteristics' of one of the colonizing groups.
: I thereby make no apologies for my reply. I replied based on the
: particular words she chose to use.
And the particular manner you chose to interpret them in.