[tor dot com] Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled

[James Nicoll]

Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled

Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial
to extrasolar.

https://www.tor.com/2022/12/05/five-cold-war-classics-in-which-the-u-s-has-been-toppled/
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 05/12/2022 09.15, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled
>
> Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial
> to extrasolar.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/05/five-cold-war-classics-in-which-the-u-s-has-been-toppled/

The U.S. isn't toppled in _Mouse_. The Duchy of Grand Fenwick sets
up a "League of Little Nations" to implement a system of effective
and verifiable arms control. However, there is nothing about taking
away the sovereignty of the U.S. or any other nation.

In _The Man in the High Castle_, the U.S. was successfully invaded
from both directions during WWII and no longer exists.

<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?1574>

In _A Canticle for Leibowitz_, North America descends into warlordism
after WWIII.

<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?2283>

_Dark December_ portrays anarchy after a different WWIII.

<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?7933>

_Subspace Explorers_ shows the "Nameless One" taking over the world,
mostly through agents already infiltrated into other governments.
(Shades of Tailgunner Joe!)

<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?7456>

In _They Shall Have Stars_, the groundwork is laid for the U.S. going
out of existence (as portrayed in _A Life for the Stars_), due to
ending up becoming no different from the U.S.S.R.

<https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?15721>

--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 10:18-19

[James Nicoll]

In article <tml4sq$3vtva$1...@dont-email.me>,

Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 05/12/2022 09.15, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled
>>
>> Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial
>> to extrasolar.
>>
>>
>https://www.tor.com/2022/12/05/five-cold-war-classics-in-which-the-u-s-has-been-toppled/
>
>The U.S. isn't toppled in _Mouse_.

I would like to play the "I don't come up with the titles" card.

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 05/12/2022 10.22, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <tml4sq$3vtva$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 05/12/2022 09.15, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled
>>>
>>> Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial
>>> to extrasolar.
>>>
>>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/05/five-cold-war-classics-in-which-the-u-s-has-been-toppled/
>>
>> The U.S. isn't toppled in _Mouse_.
>
> I would like to play the "I don't come up with the titles" card.

That's what Asimov used to say.

--
Michael F. Stemper
87.3% of all statistics are made up by the person giving them.

[William Hyde]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 10:15:08 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled
>
> Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial
> to extrasolar.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/05/five-cold-war-classics-in-which-the-u-s-has-been-toppled/

While I found Engh's "Arslan" to be at least as implausible and disagreeable as you did, I was
convinced by Leiber's blurb to buy her "Wheel of the Winds". Almost equally implausible,
but enjoyable.

William Hyde

[Robert Carnegie]

In _Snow Crash_ it's... humbled.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 12/5/2022 9:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled
>
> Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial
> to extrasolar.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/05/five-cold-war-classics-in-which-the-u-s-has-been-toppled/

I have read "The Mouse The Roared" and "Emerald Eyes" of the five, both
great books.

Add "The Sixth Column" by Robert Heinlein to this.
https://www.amazon.com/Sixth-Column-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1451637705/

And "Revolt in 2100" by Robert Heinlein is the story of the restoration
of the USA from a religious dictatorship. And it came in a great twofer
with "Methuselah's Children".

https://www.amazon.com/Revolt-in-2100-Methuselahs-Children/dp/B0073AOTZ2/

Lynn

[Martin]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 10:15:08 AM UTC-5, James Nicoll wrote:

Tongues_of_the_Moon by Philip José Farmer is set a couple generations after the U.S. and Canada fell to the Communists and became client states of the USSR. The main characters are officers in the USAF, which stood for United Soviet Americas Force, IIRC.

[Jay E. Morris]

On 12/5/2022 10:22 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <tml4sq$3vtva$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 05/12/2022 09.15, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled
>>>
>>> Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial
>>> to extrasolar.
>>>
>>>
>> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/05/five-cold-war-classics-in-which-the-u-s-has-been-toppled/
>>
>> The U.S. isn't toppled in _Mouse_.
>
> I would like to play the "I don't come up with the titles" card.

At least you don't have to play the "I don't come up with the covers" card.

[Charles Packer]

On Mon, 05 Dec 2022 15:15:04 +0000, James Nicoll wrote:

> Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled
>
> Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial to
> extrasolar.
>
> https://www.tor.com/2022/12/05/five-cold-war-classics-in-which-the-u-s-
has-been-toppled/

If the golden age of SF had been, say, 50 years earlier would it have
been the British Empire that SF authors would have been trying to
take down?

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <luDjL.53792$GNG9....@fx18.iad>,

_War Of The Worlds_ & _20,000 Leagues Under The Sea_ ?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[pete...@gmail.com]

I give you 'War of the Worlds', 'After London', etc.

pt

[Dimensional Traveler]

The US isn't mentioned in 'War of the Worlds'. I don't think the
country all the English refugees are fleeing to is even mentioned.

I don't think the US is mentioned in 20,000 Leagues either but I'm not
100% certain.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

[James Nicoll]

In article <tmno7d$8v6s$1...@dont-email.me>,

Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 12/6/2022 5:12 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>> In article <luDjL.53792$GNG9....@fx18.iad>,
>> Charles Packer <mai...@cpacker.org> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 05 Dec 2022 15:15:04 +0000, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>
>>>> Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled
>>>>
>>>> Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial to
>>>> extrasolar.
>>>>
>>>>
>https://www.tor.com/2022/12/05/five-cold-war-classics-in-which-the-u-s-
>>> has-been-toppled/
>>>
>>> If the golden age of SF had been, say, 50 years earlier would it have
>>> been the British Empire that SF authors would have been trying to
>>> take down?
>>
>> _War Of The Worlds_ & _20,000 Leagues Under The Sea_ ?
>
>The US isn't mentioned in 'War of the Worlds'. I don't think the
>country all the English refugees are fleeing to is even mentioned.
>

I don't think Wells considered this but there's a good reason
for the Martians to focus on the UK in particular. It's an island
and it will be hard for the UK to bring its naval forces to bear
in the Martians. Landing in Europe would have meant dealing with
the large armies of the day.

(ObHoward Waldrop: Night of the Cooters was adapted to film)

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <tmno7d$8v6s$1...@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:

I thought the question was the British Empire.

FWIW, the Wells is implicit & my only knowledge of Nemo is secondhand,
but WP seems to accept the point.

[pete...@gmail.com]

I was trying to name stories that matched:

> >>> If the golden age of SF had been, say, 50 years earlier would it have
> >>> been the British Empire that SF authors would have been trying to
> >>> take down?

So, I was thinking of stories where the Britain is humbled.
WotW definitely counts. After London is post-apocalyptic, written in 1885.
but there isn't a specific enemy - things seem to have just 'fallen apart',
I think due to a plague.

20,000 leagues is written by a Verne, who is French. I don't recall any
invaded or collapsed states there - Nemo himself is Indian, and has
an Island Lair .

pt

[Dimensional Traveler]

Ah, sorry, missed the not entirely clear shift in target. The question
seems to be more of a "Yes or No" than a request for titles to me.

[Charles Packer]

I had in mind "Lord of the World" by Robert Hugh Benson, a Catholic
cleric, who wrote in 1907 of the toppling of the entire Old World,
in essence, by an America identified with the Antichrist. If SF
had had the momentum then that it had in the 1940s, who knows
what variants of that theme it would have spun off?

[Default User]

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>I have read "The Mouse The Roared" and "Emerald Eyes" of the five,
>both great books.
>
>Add "The Sixth Column" by Robert Heinlein to this.

As noted in the comments, that's not a Cold War book.


Brian

[Michael F. Stemper]

Interesting. Is it readable?

--
Michael F. Stemper
Exodus 22:21

[Des]

US is mentioned dozens of times in 20,000 Leagues, counting "America" where the context refers to the US, and as "United States" for itself.

Des

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 07/12/2022 09.37, Des wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 3:48:02 PM UTC, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 12/6/2022 5:12 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>>> In article <luDjL.53792$GNG9....@fx18.iad>,
>>> Charles Packer <mai...@cpacker.org> wrote:

>>>> If the golden age of SF had been, say, 50 years earlier would it have
>>>> been the British Empire that SF authors would have been trying to
>>>> take down?
>>>
>>> _War Of The Worlds_ & _20,000 Leagues Under The Sea_ ?
>> The US isn't mentioned in 'War of the Worlds'. I don't think the
>> country all the English refugees are fleeing to is even mentioned.
>>
>> I don't think the US is mentioned in 20,000 Leagues either but I'm not
>> 100% certain.
>

> US is mentioned dozens of times in 20,000 Leagues, counting "America" where the context refers to the US, and as "United States" for itself.

Isn't the viewpoint character a veteran of the US Civil War?

--
Michael F. Stemper
If it isn't running programs and it isn't fusing atoms, it's just bending space.

[pete...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:54:25 AM UTC-5, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 07/12/2022 09.37, Des wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 3:48:02 PM UTC, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> >> On 12/6/2022 5:12 AM, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> >>> In article <luDjL.53792$GNG9....@fx18.iad>,
> >>> Charles Packer <mai...@cpacker.org> wrote:
>
> >>>> If the golden age of SF had been, say, 50 years earlier would it have
> >>>> been the British Empire that SF authors would have been trying to
> >>>> take down?
> >>>
> >>> _War Of The Worlds_ & _20,000 Leagues Under The Sea_ ?
> >> The US isn't mentioned in 'War of the Worlds'. I don't think the
> >> country all the English refugees are fleeing to is even mentioned.
> >>
> >> I don't think the US is mentioned in 20,000 Leagues either but I'm not
> >> 100% certain.
> >
> > US is mentioned dozens of times in 20,000 Leagues, counting "America"
> > where the context refers to the US, and as "United States" for itself.
> Isn't the viewpoint character a veteran of the US Civil War?

No, the protagonist is French. But there is Ned Land, a Canadian harpooner.
The other 'outside' character is a Fleming.

They arrive on the Nautilus after the American military ship 'Abraham Lincoln'
is sunk. They were there on an American expedition to investigate the 'monster'
that was sinking other ships.

So America has a supporting role in the start of the story.

pt

[Lynn McGuire]

The setting of the book is from 1945 to 2100, very nebulous.

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

My mistake, it has been a long time since I read it.

[art...@yahoo.com]

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 9:15:08 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> Five Cold War Classics in Which the U.S. Has Been Toppled
>
> Featuring aggressors ranging from small to large and terrestrial
> to extrasolar.

One that sort of qualifies is Prayers for the Assassin by Robert Ferrigno
The US is split into an Islamic Republic and a Bible Belt

[Charles Packer]

I doubt it, based on the highly detailed plot summary in its
Wikipedia page. The two most recent popes have ploughed through
it, though, because they've called it prophetic.

[Paul S Person]

Or you are thinking of /Mysterious Island/,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mysterious_Island>, which has Nemo
and American military balloonists.

The 1961 film (in true Hollywood fashion) added women to the cast,
allowing book and film to be clearly distinguished.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

[Default User]

Lynn McGuire wrote:

>On 12/7/2022 2:24 AM, Default User wrote:
>>Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>>I have read "The Mouse The Roared" and "Emerald Eyes" of the five,
>>>both great books.
>>>
>>>Add "The Sixth Column" by Robert Heinlein to this.
>>
>>
>>As noted in the comments, that's not a Cold War book.

>The setting of the book is from 1945 to 2100, very nebulous.

But not a setting with the Cold War.


Brian

[The Horny Goat]

On Mon, 5 Dec 2022 15:47:40 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmc...@gmail.com> wrote:

>And "Revolt in 2100" by Robert Heinlein is the story of the restoration
>of the USA from a religious dictatorship. And it came in a great twofer
>with "Methuselah's Children".
>
>https://www.amazon.com/Revolt-in-2100-Methuselahs-Children/dp/B0073AOTZ2/
>

Agreed - though I really do wish he'd had the time to write the story
of Nehemiah Scudder - sounds like he would have been an epic villain
and probably anticipate the tele-evangelists by 30-40 years.

[William Hyde]

He had plenty of time. He commented somewhere that he simply didn't want to
write the Scudder stories. Too depressing.

William Hyde