Interstellar Trade
Space Cadet
instellar distances?
Between Human and Alien worlds?
Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
Just my $0.02
Keith W of St. Louis AKA Space Cadet
David DeLaney
>Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
>instellar distances?
>Between Human and Alien worlds?
>Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
Information. News. Gossip.
Unless something's seriously whacky about the isotropic properties of
spacetime, there shouldn't really be any _material_ substances worth
trading over those distances. (Or unless the FTL is _really_, like
staggeringly, cheap.) Possible counterexamples are things like thionite
or the transuranics from ... not Anderson's Satan's World, that was a rogue
planet, but the one [YASID] where a supernova had stripped off everything
atmospheric from a massive gas giant, leaving a metal core like a ball-bearing
coated with elements plated over its surface that only came into being _during_
supernovas ... well, you see what I mean.
But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on amongst the
royalty and stars of other systems, and scientific (and religious, and
philosophical, and engineering, etc.) development from other worlds that
Simply Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be immensely valuable too.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
ncw...@hotmail.com
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 06:54:47 -0700 (PDT), Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> >instellar distances?
> >Between Human and Alien worlds?
> >Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
>
> Information. News. Gossip.
>
> Unless something's seriously whacky about the isotropic properties of
> spacetime, there shouldn't really be any _material_ substances worth
> trading over those distances. (Or unless the FTL is _really_, like
> staggeringly, cheap.) Possible counterexamples are things like thionite
> or the transuranics from ... not Anderson's Satan's World, that was a rogue
> planet, but the one [YASID] where a supernova had stripped off everything
> atmospheric from a massive gas giant, leaving a metal core like a ball-bearing
> coated with elements plated over its surface that only came into being _during_
> supernovas ... well, you see what I mean.
>
The planet was Mirkheim. It featured in the novel _Mirkheim_ but
first appeared in the short story "Lodestar".
> But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on amongst the
> royalty and stars of other systems, and scientific (and religious, and
> philosophical, and engineering, etc.) development from other worlds that
> Simply Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be immensely valuable too.
>
There are some objects for which people are willing to pay far more
than than their intrinsic worth - works of art, for example. Perhaps
particular vintages of wine that some people are willing to buy purely
for the snob value: "Oh, I do insist that you try the Tau-Ceti
Chardonnay - I know that it is expensive, but it is *so* much better
than the molecular reconstituted wines".
Cheers,
Nigel.
Peter Huebner
d...@gatekeeper.vic.com says...
>
> But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on amongst the
> royalty and stars of other systems, and scientific (and religious, and
> philosophical, and engineering, etc.) development from other worlds that
> Simply Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be immensely valuable too.
>
> Dave
>
And not to forget, mind-bending substances. And chocolate chip
cookies, which have previously never been heard of on Arcturus
IX.
-P.
--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com
Johnny Tindalos
news:MPG.22d7b68e3...@news.individual.net:
> In article <slrng6pnr...@gatekeeper.vic.com>,
> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com says...
>>
>> But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on amongst
>> the royalty and stars of other systems, and scientific (and
>> religious, and philosophical, and engineering, etc.) development from
>> other worlds that Simply Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be
>> immensely valuable too.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
> And not to forget, mind-bending substances. And chocolate chip
> cookies, which have previously never been heard of on Arcturus
> IX.
>
> -P.
>
ObEgan: Alien Mind Fuck!
;-)
Stewart Robert Hinsley
<d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> writes
>not Anderson's Satan's World, that was a rogue planet, but the one
>[YASID] where a supernova had stripped off everything atmospheric from
>a massive gas giant, leaving a metal core like a ball-bearing coated
>with elements plated over its surface that only came into being
>_during_ supernovas ... well, you see what I mean.
The planet was Mirkheim. The story, IIRC, is "Lodestar", collection in
"The Earth Book of Stormgate" and "The John W. Campbell Memorial
Anthology".
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Charles...@gmail.com
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 06:54:47 -0700 (PDT), Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> >instellar distances?
> >Between Human and Alien worlds?
> >Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
>
> Information. News. Gossip.
>
> Unless something's seriously whacky about the isotropic properties of
> spacetime, there shouldn't really be any _material_ substances worth
> trading over those distances. (Or unless the FTL is _really_, like
> staggeringly, cheap.) Possible counterexamples are things like thionite
> or the transuranics from ... not Anderson's Satan's World, that was a rogue
> planet, but the one [YASID] where a supernova had stripped off everything
> atmospheric from a massive gas giant, leaving a metal core like a ball-bearing
> coated with elements plated over its surface that only came into being _during_
> supernovas ... well, you see what I mean.
>
> But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on amongst the
> royalty and stars of other systems, and scientific (and religious, and
> philosophical, and engineering, etc.) development from other worlds that
> Simply Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be immensely valuable too.
I'd add entertainment to the list of low mass high value things that
could be traded.
Electronics (at least the advanced constituent parts like CPUs) may
also be something of high value enough to transport interstellar.
If the planetary market is too small to support a local arm of
whatever corporation has some advanced chips to sell, or the local
industry is too crude to make the tools that the company needs to make
the tools to make the tools to make the product, then transporting it
in may be necessary.
Also, if the local industry is advanced enough to manufacture the
stuff locally the company may be afraid of not getting the royalties
if they just hand over the blueprints. I guess that part would depend
on the network of laws and enforcement present.
The whole premise rests on whether computing is still advancing more
or less exponentially during your timeline or if it has leveled off.
If it has leveled off then advanced computer parts become more like
light bulbs. Anyone can make them and little or no royalties go back
to the inventor.
Luke Campbell
> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> instellar distances?
> Between Human and Alien worlds?
> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
How cheap? If I can spend $1,000,000.00 to open a wormhole, and I put
one mouth near Bakersfield, CA just off of I-5 and the other on
WxT^^pptf'G in the Andromeda galaxy, then after that it just costs
diesel fuel to haul wheat, steel girders, and bobble-head dolls from
earth to WxT^^pptf'G which is certainly worth doing if the inhabitants
of WxT^^pptf'G have anything to trade in return.
Luke
Michael Ash
You might want to find another spot for the Earth terminus. I'm not sure
if California has any environmental laws pertaining to wormholes, but I'll
bet you that they will obtain them in a great hurry once you start
operating.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Gene
news:slrng6pnr...@gatekeeper.vic.com:
> Unless something's seriously whacky about the isotropic properties of
> spacetime, there shouldn't really be any _material_ substances worth
> trading over those distances.
Well, except for spice and liquors, of course.
Luke Campbell
After being told that the worst case scenario is that Bakersfield
becomes a smoking crater of fused silica, the rest of California will
be quite happy to leave the wormhole mouth there. The rest of the
nation, however, will then begin agitating to locate the wormhole in
downtown Los Angeles.
Luke
Mike Dworetsky
news:MPG.22d7b68e3...@news.individual.net...
> In article <slrng6pnr...@gatekeeper.vic.com>,
> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com says...
>>
>> But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on amongst the
>> royalty and stars of other systems, and scientific (and religious, and
>> philosophical, and engineering, etc.) development from other worlds that
>> Simply Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be immensely valuable too.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
> And not to forget, mind-bending substances. And chocolate chip
> cookies, which have previously never been heard of on Arcturus
> IX.
>
Save the Earth. It's the only planet with chocolate!
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
Mike Dworetsky
news:09de2cde-74ea-459a...@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Depends on what you mean by cheap. If the cost is comparable to bulk sea or
rail carrier costs on Earth, almost anything could be profitably traded if
you can find a market for it, including raw ores to carry to smelters.
Certainly, refined metals and possibly hydrocarbons would be worth shipping.
If you mean comparable to the cost of air freight, then only finished goods
are worth transporting; we don't ship coal and iron ore by air freight.
It's technically possible but not economic.
pullo
"Mike Dworetsky" <plati...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:OtWdnVooqoBY2_DV...@bt.com...
> "Space Cadet" <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:09de2cde-74ea-459a...@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
>> instellar distances?
>> Between Human and Alien worlds?
>> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
>> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
> Depends on what you mean by cheap. If the cost is comparable to bulk sea
> or rail carrier costs on Earth, almost anything could be profitably traded
> if you can find a market for it, including raw ores to carry to smelters.
> Certainly, refined metals and possibly hydrocarbons would be worth
> shipping.
>
> If you mean comparable to the cost of air freight, then only finished
> goods are worth transporting; we don't ship coal and iron ore by air
> freight. It's technically possible but not economic.
I'm thinking about different goods that different species might be
particularly adept at creating that others find difficult.
Surely - to pull some clichéd examples - Methane breathers or aquatic
beings might have some advantages in producing some goods while us air
breathing terrestrials have other advantages.
mimus
> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> instellar distances?
> Between Human and Alien worlds?
> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>
> Just my $0.02
Living organisms and biological products like spices and woods for the
luxury trade . . . .
--
Let there be another leaf.
< _Small Gods_
Erik Max Francis
> And not to forget, mind-bending substances. And chocolate chip
> cookies, which have previously never been heard of on Arcturus
> IX.
The poor bastards.
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
Sitting here / Wasting my time / Would be like waiting for the sun to
rise -- Sade
Erik Max Francis
It also depends on how fast. Faster-than-light doesn't necessarily mean
instantaneous or near-instantaneous.
Chuk Goodin
wrote:
> Possible counterexamples are things like thionite
>or the transuranics from ... not Anderson's Satan's World, that was a rogue
>planet, but the one [YASID] where a supernova had stripped off everything
>atmospheric from a massive gas giant, leaving a metal core like a ball-bearing
>coated with elements plated over its surface that only came into being _during_
>supernovas ... well, you see what I mean.
Aren't there lots of elements that only come into being during supernovas?
--
chuk
D.F. Manno
Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com says...
> >
> > But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on amongst the
> > royalty and stars of other systems, and scientific (and religious, and
> > philosophical, and engineering, etc.) development from other worlds that
> > Simply Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be immensely valuable too.
>
> And not to forget, mind-bending substances. And chocolate chip
> cookies, which have previously never been heard of on Arcturus
> IX.
You could take care of that with just one shipment: the seeds for
certain ingredients, the instructions for growing them, and the recipe.
--
D.F. Manno | dfm...@mail.com
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness. (John Kenneth Galbraith)
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
And in labs. But the problem is that most, if not all, of them are so
bloody short-lived that by the time you could safely approach the planet
they'd have decayed to nothing, or at least to nothing you couldn't get
on a regular planet.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
William December Starr
Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> said:
> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading
> over instellar distances?
> Between Human and Alien worlds?
Well, if all those old magazine covers are true and bug-eyed
tentacled alien monsters really _do_ lust after hot Earth women...
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> In article <MPG.22d7b68e3...@news.individual.net>,
> Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
>
>> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com says...
>>> But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on amongst the
>>> royalty and stars of other systems, and scientific (and religious, and
>>> philosophical, and engineering, etc.) development from other worlds that
>>> Simply Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be immensely valuable too.
>> And not to forget, mind-bending substances. And chocolate chip
>> cookies, which have previously never been heard of on Arcturus
>> IX.
>
> You could take care of that with just one shipment: the seeds for
> certain ingredients, the instructions for growing them, and the recipe.
>
A particularly stupid company might do that. Smarter ones would keep it
secret as long as possible.
It's also possible that the other guy's planet isn't suitable for
growing all the relevant ingredients without a lot of effort. Or that in
order to grow cocoa plants they'd have to stop growing frzzmatil weeds,
which are one of their best crops.
We've already got a chocolate-growing infrastructure.
pullo
"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:g4jkec$pve$5...@registered.motzarella.org...
> D.F. Manno wrote:
>> You could take care of that with just one shipment: the seeds for certain
>> ingredients, the instructions for growing them, and the recipe.
>>
>
> A particularly stupid company might do that. Smarter ones would keep it
> secret as long as possible.
You could sell seeds with some sort of terminator gene so that the purchaser
can only get one crop and has to buy more seeds.
Or within a framework of strong intellectual property rights some form of
royalty payment schema could work.
Doug
> Luke Campbell wrote:
> > On Jul 3, 6:54 am, Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> >> instellar distances?
> >> Between Human and Alien worlds?
> >> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
> >> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>
> > How cheap? If I can spend $1,000,000.00 to open a wormhole, and I put
> > one mouth near Bakersfield, CA just off of I-5 and the other on
> > WxT^^pptf'G in the Andromeda galaxy, then after that it just costs
> > diesel fuel to haul wheat, steel girders, and bobble-head dolls from
> > earth to WxT^^pptf'G which is certainly worth doing if the inhabitants
> > of WxT^^pptf'G have anything to trade in return.
>
> It also depends on how fast. Faster-than-light doesn't necessarily mean
> instantaneous or near-instantaneous.
>
> --
> San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
> Sitting here / Wasting my time / Would be like waiting for the sun to
> rise -- Sade
To get back to the original post, why has no one mentioned Simak's
"The Big Front Yard"? Every poster seems to be focusing on material
goods.
Doug
Doug
Shawn Wilson
> instellar distances?
The same kind of things we trade today.
ronincats
> instellar distances?
> Between Human and Alien worlds?
> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>
>
the difficulties of finding appropriate trade materials is central to
the plot! Oh, wait, you wanted "plausible".
_Balance of Trade_ by Lee & Miller.
All I can pull up mentally on the spur of the moment.
Rhonda
Michael S. Schiffer
news:dfmanno-617945...@sn-radius.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net
:
> In article <MPG.22d7b68e3...@news.individual.net>,
> Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
>> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com says...
>> > But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on
>> > amongst the royalty and stars of other systems, and
>> > scientific (and religious, and philosophical, and
>> > engineering, etc.) development from other worlds that Simply
>> > Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be immensely valuable
>> > too.
>> And not to forget, mind-bending substances. And chocolate chip
>> cookies, which have previously never been heard of on Arcturus
>> IX.
> You could take care of that with just one shipment: the seeds
> for certain ingredients, the instructions for growing them, and
> the recipe.
Maybe. I point out that that wouldn't work for sending chocolate
chip cookies to Chicago, if there weren't also bulk transport
available-- the only cacao trees around here are in botanical
gardens, vanilla is likewise rare (though you could make do with
vanillin), sugar is another problem, etc.
Maybe every inhabited planet has regions with the right climate and
soil and agricultural base and food processing industry suited to
growing and making all the ingredients for chocolate chip cookies.
But I'm not sure that's necessarily implied by the existence of
enough humans to trade with.
(Though unless interstellar transport is pretty cheap, they may
just have to go without. Which might be enough reason not to
emigrate right there.)
Mike
Howard Brazee
such as spices. A load full of black pepper made the backers of the
Magellan circumnavigation very, very happy despite the cost of losing
captain, crew, and ship(s?).
Howard Brazee
<roe...@carrollsweb.com> wrote:
>To get back to the original post, why has no one mentioned Simak's
>"The Big Front Yard"? Every poster seems to be focusing on material
>goods.
I really don't believe flying saddles are simply a matter of "nobody
thought of them before". The infra-structure needs to be built.
Doug
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:57:34 -0700 (PDT), Doug
>
> >To get back to the original post, why has no one mentioned Simak's
> >"The Big Front Yard"? Every poster seems to be focusing on material
> >goods.
>
> I really don't believe flying saddles are simply a matter of "nobody
> thought of them before". The infra-structure needs to be built.
Yeah, there is a problem there. But I had in mind "ideas"--such as
(IIRC in Simak's story) the idea of paint.
George W Harris
No, pretty much anything past iron only comes into
being during supernovas. Most of them can't be described
as short-lived.
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'
George W Harris
Just to avoid trouble, put the earth-end in Houston,
Texas. They have a religious aversion to zoning and
environmental regulation.
>
>Luke
George W Harris
wrote:
>Luke Campbell wrote:
>
>> On Jul 3, 6:54 am, Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
>>> instellar distances?
>>> Between Human and Alien worlds?
>>> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
>>> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>>
>> How cheap? If I can spend $1,000,000.00 to open a wormhole, and I put
>> one mouth near Bakersfield, CA just off of I-5 and the other on
>> WxT^^pptf'G in the Andromeda galaxy, then after that it just costs
>> diesel fuel to haul wheat, steel girders, and bobble-head dolls from
>> earth to WxT^^pptf'G which is certainly worth doing if the inhabitants
>> of WxT^^pptf'G have anything to trade in return.
>
>It also depends on how fast. Faster-than-light doesn't necessarily mean
>instantaneous or near-instantaneous.
Yes, it does. In some frames of reference it
means going-back-in time, in fact.
Gene
news:ns3r64povhmn7fuoq...@4ax.com:
> No, pretty much anything past iron only comes into
> being during supernovas. Most of them can't be described
> as short-lived.
There is also "S-synthesis", by slow neutrons, mostly in red giants.
Also, iron-56 isn't the bottom of the energy diagram; that distinction
belongs to nickel-62; which gets no respect at all.
Goofy sfnal idea number 56^62: obtaining energy from the converion of iron-56
to nickel-62 in some vastly distant future.
Wayne Throop
:: mean instantaneous or near-instantaneous.
: George W Harris <gha...@mundsprung.com>
: Yes, it does. In some frames of reference it means going-back-in
: time, in fact.
But that doesn't entail zero proper time along the transit worldline.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Erik Max Francis
> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:17:16 -0700, Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com>
> wrote:
>> It also depends on how fast. Faster-than-light doesn't necessarily mean
>> instantaneous or near-instantaneous.
>
> Yes, it does. In some frames of reference it
> means going-back-in time, in fact.
Only to some frames, usually ones travelling at relativistic speeds
relative to the transit. Relative to, say, two stars separated by
interstellar distances, there's no reason why the trip would appear
instantaneous or nearly so to either endpoint or the ship itself during
the transit.
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
What would physics look like without gravitation?
-- Albert Einstein
Derek Lyons
>If the planetary market is too small to support a local arm of
>whatever corporation has some advanced chips to sell, or the local
>industry is too crude to make the tools that the company needs to make
>the tools to make the tools to make the product, then transporting it
>in may be necessary.
In the cheap [common] FTL scenario, shipping it in isn't the rea;
problem.
Paying for it is. The market for spices, wines, and gossip is only so
big. I find it unlikely that planets in the remoter system can
produce entertainments that can compete with the local stuff on the
rich planets. (In precisely the same way that the entertainment
industry of Kiribati* would have a difficult time competing with
Hollywood.)
* A real place.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Wayne Throop
: Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com>
: Only to some frames, usually ones travelling at relativistic speeds
: relative to the transit. Relative to, say, two stars separated by
: interstellar distances, there's no reason why the trip would appear
: instantaneous or nearly so to either endpoint or the ship itself
: during the transit.
If your FTL speed is, say, ten times lightspeed in some
frame of interst, the frame in which it is infinitely fast
is only moving at 10 percent lightspeed in the given frame.
David DeLaney
>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in
>> Unless something's seriously whacky about the isotropic properties of
>> spacetime, there shouldn't really be any _material_ substances worth
>> trading over those distances.
>
>Well, except for spice and liquors, of course.
And anti-agathic drugs, duh. My fault.
Dave "so add 'things we ingest' and 'things we collect'" DeLaney
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>> On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:03:38 -0400, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
>> wrote:
>>> Possible counterexamples are things like thionite
>>> or the transuranics from ... not Anderson's Satan's World, that was a rogue
>>> planet, but the one [YASID] where a supernova had stripped off everything
>>> atmospheric from a massive gas giant, leaving a metal core like a
ball-bearing
>>> coated with elements plated over its surface that only came into being
_during_
>>> supernovas ... well, you see what I mean.
["Mirkheim", as several people IDed.]
>> Aren't there lots of elements that only come into being during supernovas?
Yep. And they do so in quantities far exceeding anywhere else they happen
to develop in the universe (except maybe whatever's going on in quasars);
that was one of the points in Mirkheim, that this planet managed to collect
a heaping helping of them that otherwise would have been blasted into space
and diverged at 1/r^2 ...
> And in labs. But the problem is that most, if not all, of them are so
>bloody short-lived that by the time you could safely approach the planet
>they'd have decayed to nothing, or at least to nothing you couldn't get
>on a regular planet.
Right. But Anderson, if I remember right, was using the concept of the
'island(s) of stability' - transuranics whose nuclei were stable enough,
because of nuclear binding rules, to be long-lived enough to actually collect
as metals in visible quanities. In real life we haven't found those yet, but
research is ongoing...
Dave "and I'm leaving out entirely here the possible problems that arise when
atomic number exceeds 137" DeLaney
David DeLaney
>> Peter Huebner <no....@this.address> wrote:
>>> And not to forget, mind-bending substances. And chocolate chip
>>> cookies, which have previously never been heard of on Arcturus IX.
>>
>> You could take care of that with just one shipment: the seeds for
>> certain ingredients, the instructions for growing them, and the recipe.
>
> A particularly stupid company might do that. Smarter ones would keep it
>secret as long as possible.
Leading to the resurgence of the $250M Neiman Marcus Chocolate-Chip Recipe
urban legend running along the galacticomm links...
> It's also possible that the other guy's planet isn't suitable for
>growing all the relevant ingredients without a lot of effort. Or that in
>order to grow cocoa plants they'd have to stop growing frzzmatil weeds,
>which are one of their best crops.
>
> We've already got a chocolate-growing infrastructure.
Just look at the differences we get in growing coffee, wine grapes, and other
kinds of gourmet food in various areas _here_. Or the issues the Pak had with
their tree-of-life...
Dave
David DeLaney
>Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> said:
>> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading
>> over instellar distances?
>> Between Human and Alien worlds?
>
>Well, if all those old magazine covers are true and bug-eyed
>tentacled alien monsters really _do_ lust after hot Earth women...
So you're saying we should buy stock in hentai manga?
Dave "DO NOT LOOK THOSE WORDS UP AT WORK" DeLaney
Erik Max Francis
> : Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com>
> : Only to some frames, usually ones travelling at relativistic speeds
> : relative to the transit. Relative to, say, two stars separated by
> : interstellar distances, there's no reason why the trip would appear
> : instantaneous or nearly so to either endpoint or the ship itself
> : during the transit.
>
> If your FTL speed is, say, ten times lightspeed in some
> frame of interst, the frame in which it is infinitely fast
> is only moving at 10 percent lightspeed in the given frame.
Well, sure. At lower FTL speeds, it will be much higher. The point is
"FTL" doesn't automatically mean "_much_ faster than light," it just
means "faster than light." (And someone would argue that 0.1 c is
relativistic, since relativistic effects will start creeping into the
third significant figure at that point.)
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
He who has a _why_ to live can bear with almost any _how_.
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
Jacey Bedford
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes
Chocolate could be the new intergalactic currency. More precious than
gold. I say we keep the secret here. (Especially since we want a nice
deal on their frzzmatil.)
:-)
Jacey
>
--
Jacey Bedford
jacey at artisan hyphen harmony dot com
posting via usenet and not googlegroups, ourdebate
or any other forum that reprints usenet posts as
though they were the forum's own
Space Cadet
> William December Starr <wdst...@panix.com> wrote:
> >Well, if all those old magazine covers are true and bug-eyed
> >tentacled alien monsters really _do_ lust after hot Earth women...
>
> So you're saying we should buy stock in hentai manga?
>
> Dave "DO NOT LOOK THOSE WORDS UP AT WORK" DeLaney
> --
> \/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
roflol!
Just my $0.02
Keith W of St. Louis AKA Space Cadet
http://www.geocities.com/the_wetzels/
George W Harris
wrote:
>Wayne Throop wrote:
>
>> : Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com>
>> : Only to some frames, usually ones travelling at relativistic speeds
>> : relative to the transit. Relative to, say, two stars separated by
>> : interstellar distances, there's no reason why the trip would appear
>> : instantaneous or nearly so to either endpoint or the ship itself
>> : during the transit.
>>
>> If your FTL speed is, say, ten times lightspeed in some
>> frame of interst, the frame in which it is infinitely fast
>> is only moving at 10 percent lightspeed in the given frame.
>
>Well, sure. At lower FTL speeds, it will be much higher. The point is
>"FTL" doesn't automatically mean "_much_ faster than light," it just
>means "faster than light." (And someone would argue that 0.1 c is
>relativistic, since relativistic effects will start creeping into the
>third significant figure at that point.)
Except, of course, with relatively, it means
"arbitrarily faster than light"
Jack Tingle
"Oh, my god, Marge, you just have go gorm this new Terran thing,
'shakalat'. It got my browns browner than grifflik! It's amazing, and
the color just doesn't come out, even after de-flocculating!" ... "Yes,
it is expensive, but the shade in the ultraviolet is just absolutely
daunting." ... "No, I hear the Terries eat the stuff. Can you imagine
that? Disgusting." ... "Well, yes the smell is a bit hard to take, but
it washes out."
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Peter Huebner
fair...@gmail.com says...
> Charles...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >If the planetary market is too small to support a local arm of
> >whatever corporation has some advanced chips to sell, or the local
> >industry is too crude to make the tools that the company needs to make
> >the tools to make the tools to make the product, then transporting it
> >in may be necessary.
>
> In the cheap [common] FTL scenario, shipping it in isn't the rea;
> problem.
>
> Paying for it is. The market for spices, wines, and gossip is only so
> big. I find it unlikely that planets in the remoter system can
> produce entertainments that can compete with the local stuff on the
> rich planets. (In precisely the same way that the entertainment
> industry of Kiribati* would have a difficult time competing with
> Hollywood.)
>
> * A real place.
>
> D.
>
Yes, and no. Yes to Kiribati, maybe, but consider the market
for Canadian bear spleens and African rhino horn in South
Korea.
Stuff with no intrinsic or practical value, obtained only
through evasion of laws, and black market channels, yet
fetching high sums of money due to the popularity of ancient
alchemist recipes for wonder-potions.
The eggs from a certain almost extinct fish out of Russia...
People are prepared to spend big for all kinds of crap, if you
manage to convince them that they really want it.
No reason why aliens should be the same, an no reason why not.
If you want the rare, the unusal, the almost-unobtainable, you
have to pay premium, and that's where the big margains are.
-P.
--
=========================================
firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com
John F. Eldredge
> Wayne Throop wrote:
>
>> : Erik Max Francis <m...@alcyone.com>
>> : Only to some frames, usually ones travelling at relativistic speeds :
>> relative to the transit. Relative to, say, two stars separated by :
>> interstellar distances, there's no reason why the trip would appear :
>> instantaneous or nearly so to either endpoint or the ship itself :
>> during the transit.
>>
>> If your FTL speed is, say, ten times lightspeed in some frame of
>> interst, the frame in which it is infinitely fast is only moving at 10
>> percent lightspeed in the given frame.
>
> Well, sure. At lower FTL speeds, it will be much higher. The point is
> "FTL" doesn't automatically mean "_much_ faster than light," it just
> means "faster than light." (And someone would argue that 0.1 c is
> relativistic, since relativistic effects will start creeping into the
> third significant figure at that point.)
ObSF: _Slow Freight_, by F. M. Busby, where tbvat sebz bar cbvag gb
nabgure ivn ulcrefcnpr gheaf bhg gb gnxr gur fnzr gvzr vagreiny,
ertneqyrff bs qvfgnapr. Sbe cynargnel-fpnyr qvfgnaprf, gur cebprff vf
fybjre guna geniryvat ol zhaqnar zrnaf. Sbe vagrefgryyne qvfgnaprf, gur
gvzr erdhverq vf fubegre guna sbe geniryvat ol zhaqnar zrnaf.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Erik Max Francis
> Except, of course, with relatively, it means
> "arbitrarily faster than light"
Except, of course, you should reread my original statement. I never
said that it never can be instantaneous, only that it doesn't
_necessarily_ have to mean it. For modest FTL speeds between
slow-moving objects, the trip would still could still take years for all
involved, including the travelers.
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
There's a reason why we / Keep chasing morning
-- Sandra St. Victor
Mark_R...@hotmail.com
> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> instellar distances?
> Between Human and Alien worlds?
> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
Niven's "The Fourth Profession" and Draco Tavern stories have some
interesting commentary on interstellar trade with aliens.
Michael Ash
>>> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
>>> instellar distances?
>>> Between Human and Alien worlds?
>>> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
>>> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>>
>> one mouth near Bakersfield, CA just off of I-5 and the other on
>> WxT^^pptf'G in the Andromeda galaxy, then after that it just costs
>> diesel fuel to haul wheat, steel girders, and bobble-head dolls from
>> earth to WxT^^pptf'G which is certainly worth doing if the inhabitants
>> of WxT^^pptf'G have anything to trade in return.
>
> instantaneous or near-instantaneous.
It would be interesting to me to explore the consequences of interstellar
travel which is extremely cheap but not very fast. Handwave space travel
technology which can ship freight to Alpha Centauri for the same cost that
you'd pay to ship something from Tokyo to San Francisco on Earth, but
which takes 5 years to get there. And let's say Alpha Centauri has people
worth trading with. To make it really interesting, instead of 5 years,
make it 50; could human organizations sustain trade that requires a
100-year round trip?
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
D.F. Manno
wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
> Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading
> > over instellar distances?
> > Between Human and Alien worlds?
>
> Well, if all those old magazine covers are true and bug-eyed
> tentacled alien monsters really _do_ lust after hot Earth women...
High-concept movie pitch: Pimps in space!
--
D.F. Manno | dfm...@mail.com
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man零 oldest exercises in
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification
for selfishness. (John Kenneth Galbraith)
Alie...@gmail.com
> instellar distances?
> Between Human and Alien worlds?
> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>
Speaking of your $0.02, what will the traders at each end of the
putative trade route use for money to pay for all this? Remember,
whatever it is it has to be intrinsically more valuable _to both_ than
anything either is willing to put on a ship.
Mark L. Fergerson
Mike Van Pelt
David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:
>So you're saying we should buy stock in hentai manga?
>
>Dave "DO NOT LOOK THOSE WORDS UP AT WORK" DeLaney
Or anywhere else.
http://www.dhadm.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/cannot_be_unseen.jpg
--
Mike Van Pelt | Wikipedia. The roulette wheel of knowledge.
mvp at calweb.com | --Blair P. Houghton
KE6BVH
Michael Ash
Money is only useful for three-way trades, or yet higher degrees. For
simple bi-directional trading, barter is entirely sufficient, and is
indeed equivalent. And even if you're going to be plying more complicated
routes, barter can serve admirably. Plenty of international trade was
carried out in the days before a unified currency exchange system. For
maximum efficiency, you'll want to be hauling goods all the time anyway;
hauling money between the stars just means you're not making the best use
of your cargo space.
David DeLaney
>> On Jul 3, 6:54 am, Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Speaking of your $0.02, what will the traders at each end of the
>> putative trade route use for money to pay for all this? Remember,
>> whatever it is it has to be intrinsically more valuable _to both_ than
>> anything either is willing to put on a ship.
>
>Money is only useful for three-way trades, or yet higher degrees. For
>simple bi-directional trading, barter is entirely sufficient, and is
>indeed equivalent. And even if you're going to be plying more complicated
>routes, barter can serve admirably. Plenty of international trade was
>carried out in the days before a unified currency exchange system.
ObSF: Hal Clement's _Iceworld_ and the barterbox.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
il...@rcn.com
> > putative trade route use for money to pay for all this? Remember,
> > whatever it is it has to be intrinsically more valuable _to both_ than
> > anything either is willing to put on a ship.
>
> Money is only useful for three-way trades, or yet higher degrees. For
> simple bi-directional trading, barter is entirely sufficient, and is
> indeed equivalent. And even if you're going to be plying more complicated
> routes, barter can serve admirably. Plenty of international trade was
> carried out in the days before a unified currency exchange system. For
> maximum efficiency, you'll want to be hauling goods all the time anyway;
> hauling money between the stars just means you're not making the best use
> of your cargo space.
There is also a question whether the trader is trying to get rich
while living ON a world, or whether the ship IS his world. Ultras in
Reynolds' "Inhibitor" series spend their entire centuries-long lives
on board their ships, many of them never set foot on a planet, and
"wealth" to them are parts and supplies for their ships (also building
nw ships, until Conjoiners stopped making them). Ultras do trade in
information, and in things like art objects and exotic animals, but
their main source of income is *passengers*. A typical Ultra ship on
the way from star A to star B carries thousands of frozen passengers.
They pay their fare with money, and Ultra crew uses this money right
away to buy things for their ship. Carrying money of one system into
another is generally pointless, since speed of light communication
limit makes meaningful currency exchange impossible.
Alie...@gmail.com
> In rec.arts.sf.science n...@bid.nes <Alien8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 3, 6:54 am, Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> >> instellar distances?
> >> Between Human and Alien worlds?
> >> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
> >> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>
> >> Just my $0.02
>
> > Speaking of your $0.02, what will the traders at each end of the
> > putative trade route use for money to pay for all this? Remember,
> > whatever it is it has to be intrinsically more valuable _to both_ than
> > anything either is willing to put on a ship.
>
> Money is only useful for three-way trades, or yet higher degrees. For
> simple bi-directional trading, barter is entirely sufficient, and is
> indeed equivalent. And even if you're going to be plying more complicated
> routes, barter can serve admirably. Plenty of international trade was
> carried out in the days before a unified currency exchange system. For
> maximum efficiency, you'll want to be hauling goods all the time anyway;
> hauling money between the stars just means you're not making the best use
> of your cargo space.
I didn't mean to imply a single link between only two points
(despite my phrasing it that way), and Space Cadet _did_ postulate FTL
'cheap' enough to support interstellar shipping. I don't usually
presuppose limited FTL like Alderson's tramlines or whatever, so I
assumed a fairly broad commercial base. I merely selected a single
link spherical-cow-wise to make the point that nobody's going to
bother with even one unless it's profitable to somebody at at least
one end.
In either case, nobody said anything about hauling actual currency.
Granted occasionally someone (say a colonial government) will need to
ship at least some for colonists to use among themselves if for no
other reason than to keep from losing the habit, but if FTL bulk
shipping is commercially viable then so is (presumably much faster)
FTL couriered currency exchange rate info. Without that info, traders
will have a hard time staying in business unless their shipping is
totally independent of fueling and other servicing needs in remote
locations, no?
Come to think about it, who _does_ ship large (as opposed to
collectible) amounts of currency other than colonial governments,
criminals?
Mark L. Fergerson
Michael Ash
If your systems are sufficiently un-linked then that would be the only way
to exchange money. It has certainly been done in the past. Colonial-era
Spain essentially bankrupted itself shipping currency back from the
Americas, and moving gold and silver around in general isn't *that*
uncommon, considering that they have nearly zero intrinsic value.
> Granted occasionally someone (say a colonial government) will need to
> ship at least some for colonists to use among themselves if for no
> other reason than to keep from losing the habit, but if FTL bulk
> shipping is commercially viable then so is (presumably much faster)
> FTL couriered currency exchange rate info. Without that info, traders
> will have a hard time staying in business unless their shipping is
> totally independent of fueling and other servicing needs in remote
> locations, no?
Trade doesn't require convertible currencies *at all*, that's why it's
called trade. You take Frobnors from system A to system B, where you trade
the Frobnors for Expangets, which you take to system C and exchange for
Blorfles. The Blorfles you take back to A and get more Frobnors. Done
properly, each step results in your cargo being seen as more valuable in
that system than the stuff you need for the next step, and the surplus is
converted into spare parts, fuel, alcohol, entertainment, prostitutes,
etc.
David Johnston
Bankers.
David Johnston
wrote:
>that system than the stuff you need for the next step, and the surplus is
>converted into spare parts, fuel, alcohol, entertainment, prostitutes,
>etc.
entertainment, prostititutes...but now I'm repeating myself.
Karl Johanson
> In article <slrng6pnr...@gatekeeper.vic.com>,
> d...@gatekeeper.vic.com says...
>>
>> But people being people, they'll want to hear what's going on amongst the
>> royalty and stars of other systems, and scientific (and religious, and
>> philosophical, and engineering, etc.) development from other worlds that
>> Simply Hasn't Been Done/Thought Of Here will be immensely valuable too.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>
> And not to forget, mind-bending substances. And chocolate chip
> cookies, which have previously never been heard of on Arcturus
> IX.
To make the batter, take some flour, butter, eggs, brown sugar and chocolate
chips and blend them together with an IX Master.
Karl Johanson
Steven L.
> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> instellar distances?
Women. Mail-order brides, for example.
Just like during the days of the Wild West, when the frontier was
sparsely settled and the male pioneers wanted female companionship.
That was an episode of Star Trek Original Series, by the way: "Mudd's
Women," about a guy who sells mail-order brides to horny miners on
mining planets.
--
Steven L.
Email: sdli...@earthlinkNOSPAM.net
Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.
Steven L.
> In article <g4jkd1$e8h$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote:
>
>> Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading
>>> over instellar distances?
>>> Between Human and Alien worlds?
>> Well, if all those old magazine covers are true and bug-eyed
>> tentacled alien monsters really _do_ lust after hot Earth women...
>
> High-concept movie pitch: Pimps in space!
It was already done--or at least hinted at. cf. "Mudd's Women," an
Original Series Star Trek episode.
Steven L.
> In article <09de2cde-74ea-459a...@y22g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> said:
>
>> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading
>> over instellar distances?
>> Between Human and Alien worlds?
>
> Well, if all those old magazine covers are true and bug-eyed
> tentacled alien monsters really _do_ lust after hot Earth women...
Well, even on Earth, the advent of affluence and worldwide jet travel
and feminism in the 21st century has NOT eliminated either sex
trafficking or mail-order brides. Nevada is a more advanced area than
Afghanistan, both socially and economically. Yet brothels are legal in
Nevada and illegal in Afghanistan.
And I don't think that's going to change in the far future. At least
not unless genetic engineering eventually does away with the
conventional sex drive.
Derek Lyons
>In article <486dabab...@news.supernews.com>,
>fair...@gmail.com says...
>
>> In the cheap [common] FTL scenario, shipping it in isn't the real
>> problem.
>>
>> Paying for it is. The market for spices, wines, and gossip is only so
>> big. I find it unlikely that planets in the remoter system can
>> produce entertainments that can compete with the local stuff on the
>> rich planets. (In precisely the same way that the entertainment
>> industry of Kiribati* would have a difficult time competing with
>> Hollywood.)
>>
>> * A real place.
>
>Yes, and no. Yes to Kiribati, maybe, but consider the market
>for Canadian bear spleens and African rhino horn in South
>Korea.
Fairly large as such things go, but pretty small compared to the size
of total Canadian or African economies. Even smaller when compared to
the size of the South Korean economy.
>Stuff with no intrinsic or practical value, obtained only
>through evasion of laws, and black market channels, yet
>fetching high sums of money due to the popularity of ancient
>alchemist recipes for wonder-potions.
Much of which money doesn't actually end up in circulation in the
country of origin - rather in the hands of middlemen. Even those
closer to the source tend not to keep their money at home due to the
non trivial chance of having to leave home under rushed circumstances.
>The eggs from a certain almost extinct fish out of Russia...
As much due to pollution, if not more, than other causes.
>People are prepared to spend big for all kinds of crap, if you
>manage to convince them that they really want it.
>No reason why aliens should be the same, an no reason why not.
>
>If you want the rare, the unusal, the almost-unobtainable, you
>have to pay premium, and that's where the big margains are.
True. But the total market size isn't that large, which is my point.
D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.
http://derekl1963.livejournal.com/
-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL
Derek Lyons
>It would be interesting to me to explore the consequences of interstellar
>travel which is extremely cheap but not very fast. Handwave space travel
>technology which can ship freight to Alpha Centauri for the same cost that
>you'd pay to ship something from Tokyo to San Francisco on Earth, but
>which takes 5 years to get there. And let's say Alpha Centauri has people
>worth trading with. To make it really interesting, instead of 5 years,
>make it 50; could human organizations sustain trade that requires a
>100-year round trip?
Given the time value of money, I find it hard to imagine transport
cheap enough and goods with a high enough markup to make even a ten
year round trip economically viable.
For example, look at how aged meats and meat products, cheeses, and
wines have moved from being fairly common culinary items even down to
the lower middle and upper lower classes to being luxury items over
the past century.
Dan Tilque
>
> People are prepared to spend big for all kinds of crap, if you
> manage to convince them that they really want it.
> No reason why aliens should be the same, an no reason why not.
ObSF: "The Great Pat Boom" by Damon Knight
--
Dan Tilque
Derek Lyons
>In rec.arts.sf.science nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 3, 6:54 am, Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
>>> instellar distances?
>>> Between Human and Alien worlds?
>>> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
>>> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>>>
>>> Just my $0.02
>>
>> Speaking of your $0.02, what will the traders at each end of the
>> putative trade route use for money to pay for all this? Remember,
>> whatever it is it has to be intrinsically more valuable _to both_ than
>> anything either is willing to put on a ship.
>
>Money is only useful for three-way trades, or yet higher degrees. For
>simple bi-directional trading, barter is entirely sufficient, and is
>indeed equivalent.
Assuming both ends of the trade route have something worth bartering
for.
>Plenty of international trade was carried out in the days before a unified
>currency exchange system.
They didn't need a unified currency exchange system because they had a
universal currency - gold or other specie.
Crown-Horned Snorkack
> >> On Jul 3, 6:54 am, Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> >>> instellar distances?
> >>> Between Human and Alien worlds?
> >>> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
> >>> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>
> >>> Just my $0.02
>
> >> Speaking of your $0.02, what will the traders at each end of the
> >> putative trade route use for money to pay for all this? Remember,
> >> whatever it is it has to be intrinsically more valuable _to both_ than
> >> anything either is willing to put on a ship.
>
> >Money is only useful for three-way trades, or yet higher degrees. For
> >simple bi-directional trading, barter is entirely sufficient, and is
> >indeed equivalent.
>
> Assuming both ends of the trade route have something worth bartering
> for.
>
> >Plenty of international trade was carried out in the days before a unified
> >currency exchange system.
>
> They didn't need a unified currency exchange system because they had a
> universal currency - gold or other specie.
>
ratio of gold to silver.
Matthias Warkus
> Nevada is a more advanced area than
> Afghanistan, both socially and economically. Yet brothels are legal in
> Nevada and illegal in Afghanistan.
"Yet"? ITYM "therefore".
mawa
--
http://www.prellblog.de
Erik Max Francis
> Steven L. schrieb:
>> Nevada is a more advanced area than Afghanistan, both socially and
>> economically. Yet brothels are legal in Nevada and illegal in
>> Afghanistan.
>
> "Yet"? ITYM "therefore".
There's not a very good basis for that at all; after all, there have
been periods in the Wild West history where brothels were quite common
and completely legal, and they were hardly more socially and
economically developed than the America of today. It has more to do
with cultural differences than anything else.
And at least Nevada isn't forcing welfare recipients into prostitution
just because it's legal, unlike in modern "socially and economically"
developed countries like Germany.
--
Erik Max Francis && m...@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
I love Mickey Mouse more than any woman I've ever known.
-- Walt Disney
Matthias Warkus
>> Come to think about it, who _does_ ship large (as opposed to
>> collectible) amounts of currency other than colonial governments,
>> criminals?
>
> Bankers.
Any large retail organisation, though usually specialised service
companies do it for them, and most of the money just comes in from or
goes to the next bank.
mawa
--
http://www.prellblog.de
Peter Bruells
> Matthias Warkus wrote:
>
> There's not a very good basis for that at all; after all, there have
> been periods in the Wild West history where brothels were quite
> common and completely legal, and they were hardly more socially and
> economically developed than the America of today. It has more to do
> with cultural differences than anything else.
>
> And at least Nevada isn't forcing welfare recipients into prostitution
> just because it's legal, unlike in modern "socially and economically"
> developed countries like Germany.
Which doesn't happen. You might want to read real newspapers.
Nyrath the nearly wise
trade financially sound outlined in "The Economics of Interstellar Commerce"
by Warren Salomon (collected in ISLANDS IN THE SKY). He has a follow up in the
editorial of Analog magazine December 1989.
Other interesting interstellar trade essays:
The 11 Billion Dollar Bottle of Wine:The Possibilities of Interstellar Trade
http://www.costik.com/inttrade.html
Paul Krugman's tongue-in-cheek analysis (PDF file)
http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf
Interstellar Trade: A Primer
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/lyonesse/startrade.htm
Greg Costikyan's novel FIRST CONTRACT
review:
http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/firstcontract.htm
Michael Ash
Sometimes a little redundancy in a post must be accepted for the purposes
of..., well, entertainment.
Derek Lyons
>Other interesting interstellar trade essays:
>
>The 11 Billion Dollar Bottle of Wine:The Possibilities of Interstellar Trade
>http://www.costik.com/inttrade.html
Which after much handwaving just falls back on "there is gonna be
trade, trust me" "probably in luxuries".
Matthias Warkus
> And at least Nevada isn't forcing welfare recipients into prostitution
> just because it's legal, unlike in modern "socially and economically"
> developed countries like Germany.
Where'd you read that? World Net Daily? Weekly World News? National
Enquirer?
mawa
--
http://www.prellblog.de
Leszek Karlik
<War...@students.uni-marburg.de> wrote:
[...]
>> And at least Nevada isn't forcing welfare recipients into prostitution
>> just because it's legal, unlike in modern "socially and economically"
>> developed countries like Germany.
>
> Where'd you read that? World Net Daily? Weekly World News? National
> Enquirer?
The article originated in Telegraph:
http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp
> mawa
Leslie
--
Leszek 'Leslie' Karlik
David M. Palmer
Karlik <les...@hell.pl> wrote:
And, for those who didn't click the link, that page says that it was
false.
--
David M. Palmer dmpa...@email.com (formerly @clark.net, @ematic.com)
Matthias Warkus
And it's not like I hadn't written about this before on r.a.sf.*
mawa
--
http://www.prellblog.de
JohnFair
> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
> instellar distances?
> Between Human and Alien worlds?
> Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
> What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>
> Just my $0.02
>
>
> http://www.geocities.com/the_wetzels/
Most people have abswered the what quite adequately and the why as
well.
As for stories showing the actual trading, there are very few modern
ones - there are plenty of stories where there is an active trading
economy - that's what powered Weber's Manticore but little on what's
being trading - though it's assumedd virtually anything is capable of
being shipped for profit; in _The Shadow of Saganami_ mention is made
of meat exports .
The classic trading stories, though, are probably Poul Anderson's Van
Rjinn stories and he deals in the luxury end of the market.
--
John Fairhurst
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk
Michael Ash
> As for stories showing the actual trading, there are very few modern
> ones - there are plenty of stories where there is an active trading
> economy - that's what powered Weber's Manticore but little on what's
> being trading - though it's assumedd virtually anything is capable of
> being shipped for profit; in _The Shadow of Saganami_ mention is made
> of meat exports .
Vinge's Zones novels do this nicely. Especially _A Deepness in the Sky_,
which not only explores plausible (to my mind) interstellar trade, but
without any FTL travel or communication. The trade is mostly information,
seeds, extremely miniaturized electronics, and the like.
David Johnston
It always amazes me when people cite a snopes classification of a
rumour as false as evidence of its truth.
Kurt Busiek
Which nobody did here.
It was Erik Max Francis who said it was true -- Leszek just answered
the question, providing a link that both supported his answer and
debunked the original claim.
kdb
Leszek Karlik
[...]
>>> >> And at least Nevada isn't forcing welfare recipients into
>>> prostitution
>>> >> just because it's legal, unlike in modern "socially and
>>> economically"
>>> >> developed countries like Germany.
>>> > Where'd you read that? World Net Daily? Weekly World News? National
>>> > Enquirer?
>>> The article originated in Telegraph:
>>> http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp
>> And, for those who didn't click the link, that page says that it was
>> false.
> It always amazes me when people cite a snopes classification of a
> rumour as false as evidence of its truth.
Have you ever seen such a thing or are you repeating an urban legend? ;-P
Steven L.
> Steven L. schrieb:
>> Nevada is a more advanced area than Afghanistan, both socially and
>> economically. Yet brothels are legal in Nevada and illegal in
>> Afghanistan.
>
> "Yet"? ITYM "therefore".
The term "mail-order bride" probably originated in the American
colonies. The first mail-order brides were sent from Britain to
Jamestown Virginia way back in the 17th century, as payment for the
tobacco the colonists were growing. They were, in fact, the first white
women to settle in Jamestown.
During the 1980s, I had friends who worked on Kwajelein Island in the
Pacific, monitoring missile tests. Again, most of the missile
technicians were men. Those who had wives, brought them along. But
those who were single, had no female companionship available on the
island. So they used to fly in women every month or so for some
temporary companionship, and then fly them out again.
It wouldn't surprise me at all, if life on the "final frontier" of
interstellar space will be similar. Feminism notwithstanding,
exploration and conquest are likely to remain activities dominated by
men, with their strong male drive. Hence there will continue to be a
relative shortage of women on planets recently colonized. Bringing
women to such planets, either for temporary companionship or for
marriage, is likely to be a thriving business.
Steven L.
> In rec.arts.sf.science JohnFair <jo...@johnsbooks.co.uk> wrote:
>> As for stories showing the actual trading, there are very few modern
>> ones - there are plenty of stories where there is an active trading
>> economy - that's what powered Weber's Manticore but little on what's
>> being trading - though it's assumedd virtually anything is capable of
>> being shipped for profit; in _The Shadow of Saganami_ mention is made
>> of meat exports .
>
> Vinge's Zones novels do this nicely. Especially _A Deepness in the Sky_,
> which not only explores plausible (to my mind) interstellar trade, but
> without any FTL travel or communication. The trade is mostly information,
> seeds, extremely miniaturized electronics, and the like.
Free trade is based on the principle of comparative advantage: Each
trader offers what he or she can produce most efficiently.
Logically, it seems that the activities and products that a planetary
civilization spends the most time working on, will be the ones that it
produces the best. And those are the ones it is best at trading.
So what does Earth have to offer other worlds? Just what are we good at?
From the point of view of an alien society, we Earthlings spend most of
our time on:
1. SEX
2. SPORTS and RECREATION
3. WEAPONS and WAR
All are exportable commodities. All of them have been traded by various
nations in Earth's own history.
Dan Goodman
Or it might be that women are considered more suited -- and the "mail
brides" are male brides.
--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers."
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Futures http://clerkfuturist.wordpress.com
mirror 1: http://dsgood.insanejournal.com
mirror 2: http://dsgood.wordpress.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Michael Ash
> Michael Ash wrote:
>> In rec.arts.sf.science JohnFair <jo...@johnsbooks.co.uk> wrote:
>>> As for stories showing the actual trading, there are very few modern
>>> ones - there are plenty of stories where there is an active trading
>>> economy - that's what powered Weber's Manticore but little on what's
>>> being trading - though it's assumedd virtually anything is capable of
>>> being shipped for profit; in _The Shadow of Saganami_ mention is made
>>> of meat exports .
>>
>> Vinge's Zones novels do this nicely. Especially _A Deepness in the Sky_,
>> which not only explores plausible (to my mind) interstellar trade, but
>> without any FTL travel or communication. The trade is mostly information,
>> seeds, extremely miniaturized electronics, and the like.
>
> Free trade is based on the principle of comparative advantage: Each
> trader offers what he or she can produce most efficiently.
>
> Logically, it seems that the activities and products that a planetary
> civilization spends the most time working on, will be the ones that it
> produces the best. And those are the ones it is best at trading.
This doesn't really follow. As you said, it's *comparative* advantage. In
other words, you'll want the products for which the ratio of efficiency
when comparing here to there is the greatest. This doesn't mean that it's
the stuff you spend the most time on.
Some random examples off the top of my head. China exports mostly
electronics, toys, and other manufactured goods. Most Chinese people spend
most of their time growing food. India exports mainly clothes, jewellery,
and information. Again, most of their people spend most of their time
growing food. The US's leading export is electrical machinery, and I don't
think that's the primary activity of US residents. Historically, most
humans have spent most of their lives making food, and most long-distance
trade has *not* been food.
> So what does Earth have to offer other worlds? Just what are we good at?
>
> From the point of view of an alien society, we Earthlings spend most of
> our time on:
>
> 1. SEX
> 2. SPORTS and RECREATION
> 3. WEAPONS and WAR
>
> All are exportable commodities. All of them have been traded by various
> nations in Earth's own history.
Because the question is relative efficiency or skill, I don't think this
question can be answered until we meet another alien civilization and find
out what *they* are good at. It seems like we'd be good at things like
computers, entertainment, and killing things. But it's entirely possible
that when the aliens arrive, the stuff they'll be really fascinated with
is gummi bears and submarine construction.
Peter Bruells
David Johnston
Cheaper to ship germ cells.
Matthias Warkus
> From the point of view of an alien society, we Earthlings spend most of
> our time on:
>
> 1. SEX
> 2. SPORTS and RECREATION
> 3. WEAPONS and WAR
Where do you live? Not on my planet, it seems. While (2) seems to be
correct to some degree, sex is something the average human has about
once per month if you don't count masturbation. And most humans never
participate in a war, and outside of the US, they aren't particularly
preoccupied with weapons either.
mawa
--
http://www.prellblog.de
pullo
"Erik Max Francis" <m...@alcyone.com> wrote in message
news:s9GdnS0VnZJc9_PV...@speakeasy.net...
> For modest FTL speeds between slow-moving objects, the trip would still
> could still take years for all involved, including the travelers.
Although it would limit the number of items that are economical, trade that
takes years to complete is not unheard of. Marco Polo's family business is
but the more famous of examples.
Today oil corporation look at reserves and plan according to multi-decade
long-term time frames. I don't know exactly how long it takes but I imagine
forestry corporation have to seed trees that won't be harvested for decades
where they do not or can not harvest old growth also plan within those
timeframes.
I can imagine in a world of scarcity of redwoods that foresters plant new
trees to be harvested a century or more in the future given a demand for
'authentic' or mahogany or some such.
While the cost of interstellar trade might make trade prohibitive I doubt
even modest transit times due to max velocities [defined as some medium to
large proper fraction of C] would eliminate all trade.
Richard Harter
<kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
>instellar distances?
>Between Human and Alien worlds?
>Between Earth and human colonies/settlements?
>What books give good/plausible examples of interstellar trade?
>
>Just my $0.02
Once upon a time I answered this as follows:
When you watch (or read) an interstellar space opera have you
ever wondered what all those huge cargo ships were actually
carrying? What could be so valuable that it would pay to ship it
from one star system to another? What could they ship that the
destination planet couldn't make themselves?
In a word the answer is slaves. Slavery is a natural social
institution; humans like to have "people" waiting on them. To
have slavery, however, you need a permanent outgroup that serves
as a source of slaves. The difficulty is that with time outgroups
meld into the ingroup. Attempting to maintain an outgroup within
a culture is a source of instability. The easy solution is to
trade for slaves. Imagine two worlds, alpha and beta, each having
a cultural system with winners and losers. Question: What do they
do with their losers? Answer: Alpha ships its losers to Beta
where they become slaves. In turn Beta ships its losers to Alpha
to become slaves there.
At: http://home.tiac.net/~cri/2004/slavery.html
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net
http://home.tiac.net/~cri, http://www.varinoma.com
Save the Earth now!!
It's the only planet with chocolate.
Alie...@gmail.com
Or possibly both, as in this OBSF from TMIAHM by Heinlein:
"Ja, cobber! Tell 'em send us hoors! T'ousands and t'ousands of
hoors! I marry 'em, I betcha!"
Mark L. Fergerson
Michael Stemper
>On Jul 3, 6:54 am, Space Cadet <kaw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Given some form of 'cheap' FTL travel what would be worth trading over
>> instellar distances?
>How cheap? If I can spend $1,000,000.00 to open a wormhole, and I put
>one mouth near Bakersfield, CA just off of I-5
Nope, sorry, can't do it. That's well within Cardynge's Limit. That's
probably why most authors that have wormhole-type interstellar travel
have something like Cardynge's Limit in the background.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
I feel more like I do now than I did when I came in.
Michael Stemper
>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in news:slrng6pnr...@gatekeeper.vic.com:
>> Unless something's seriously whacky about the isotropic properties of
>> spacetime, there shouldn't really be any _material_ substances worth
>> trading over those distances.
>
>Well, except for spice and liquors, of course.
And Alsakanite cigarettes to have along with the liquor.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
Matthias Warkus
> I can imagine in a world of scarcity of redwoods that foresters plant
> new trees to be harvested a century or more in the future given a demand
> for 'authentic' or mahogany or some such.
Foresters already plan in terms of centuries AFAIK.
mawa
--
http://www.prellblog.de