Hexapodia as a key insight? (Fire Upon the Deep)
Bronis Vidugiris
looking. Is it really as off-the-wall as it seems? It's hard to
say, but I did find that skrodelings did have hexagonal (six-sided)
containers. I suspect that this was deliberate on Vinge's part.
--
"The power of this battlestation is _insignificant_ when compared with
the power of the Farce." - D. Vader.
David DeLaney
>Some comments/questions on this remark caused me to do a little
>looking. Is it really as off-the-wall as it seems? It's hard to
>say, but I did find that skrodelings did have hexagonal (six-sided)
>containers. I suspect that this was deliberate on Vinge's part.
Score *another* one for Twirlisp (sp?)... maybe it's the Oracle-analog?
Dave "no ZOTs allowed" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; ObQuote: `I suggest quoting 'J"K"P' and
'J"RR"P' both. --K' Disclaimer: Opinions? UTK?? Me??? BWAAAAHahahahaa <choke>
<snort> hee hee; Thinking about this disclaimer (or about theor. particle __
physics) may cause headaches. Vicki and Paul and Terry and Alice. Kibo #: +1 \/
Brad Templeton
>I think they had six wheels on their skrodes - assuming a number of
>translators between Twirlip and the action, it's very easy to believe
>that "hexapodia" was a reference to this characteristic. Twirlip
>seems to have mixed up the names of "humans" and "skroderiders",
>but otherwise appears to be the only net-entity with a really clear
>idea of what was going on.
This is not even a matter for speculation. If you buy (plug, plug) the
hypertext annotated version of A Fire Upon the Deep you will find Vernor
Vinges own long note on Twirlip. Here's part of it.... (reproduced with
permission)
Twirlip writes:
I haven't had a chance to see the famous video from Straumli
Realm, except as an evocation. (My only gateway onto the Net is very
expensive.) Is it true that humans have six legs? I wasn't sure from
the evocation. If these humans have three pairs of legs, then I think
there is an easy explanation for --
Ravna Comments:
Hexapodia? Six legs? Three pairs of legs? Probably none of
these translations was close to what the bewildered creature of
Twirlip had in its mind. Ravna didn't read any more of that posting.
Some of Vernor's private notes on this paragraph...
Heh, heh: ... or three pairs of wheels? I wonder what would have
happened if Ravna had just read a little further. In some weird
way, Twirlip knows the Secret of the Riders. I wonder how many
people will catch this. It's really not up to the level of a ...
(they continue to talk about his intentions, and his thoughts on the net
and how intelligent agents might isolate cultures too much, causing
such important clues to be missed.)
(Mail to net...@clarinet.com for info on the CD-ROM Hugo & Nebula anthology,
which includes this novel in hypertext, and all the other nominees and
winners.)
--
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- San Jose, CA 408/296-0366
Aldis Ozols
>Some comments/questions on this remark caused me to do a little
>looking. Is it really as off-the-wall as it seems? It's hard to
>say, but I did find that skrodelings did have hexagonal (six-sided)
>containers. I suspect that this was deliberate on Vinge's part.
I think they had six wheels on their skrodes - assuming a number of
translators between Twirlip and the action, it's very easy to believe
that "hexapodia" was a reference to this characteristic. Twirlip
seems to have mixed up the names of "humans" and "skroderiders",
but otherwise appears to be the only net-entity with a really clear
idea of what was going on.
Aldis Ozols
Sydney, Australia
Jonathan Burns
I must re-read it. I can't think of another case in which a
character comprehends the situation, explains it to everyone
including the reader, and is roundly ignored.
Jonathan
Brad Templeton
>I must re-read it. I can't think of another case in which a
>character comprehends the situation, explains it to everyone
>including the reader, and is roundly ignored.
Vinge did leave it in as a clue (by accident at first, and then later
deliberately) but he did not expect the reader to catch it, since he gave
no other hints or other evidence that Twirlip of the Mists was actually one
of the best informed characters on the net.
He was trying, rather obscurely, to make a point about the sort of net he
envisions. He thinks that people will set up their software to mostly
show them postings that think the way they do, that can be easily
understood. Twirlip knows the truth but is such a strange creature that
most people won't even read his messages.
In fact, Ravna wouldn't read them in most cases, and it's a bit of a
dramatic device that she is displayed as reading them. Her nonsense
filters would normally have removed them, even though they have the truth.
Is it true that netizens have 101 buttons under their fingers?
C. Douglas Baker
Brad Templeton <br...@clarinet.com> wrote:
>
>He was trying, rather obscurely, to make a point about the sort of net he
>envisions. He thinks that people will set up their software to mostly
>show them postings that think the way they do, that can be easily
>understood. Twirlip knows the truth but is such a strange creature that
>most people won't even read his messages.
>
>In fact, Ravna wouldn't read them in most cases, and it's a bit of a
>dramatic device that she is displayed as reading them. Her nonsense
>filters would normally have removed them, even though they have the truth.
>
>Is it true that netizens have 101 buttons under their fingers?
>--
People's preconceptions tend to be re-enforced by mass media and having
read the net for some time this also holds true here. I have read a lot
of crticism of Vinge's conception of the net in an interstellar community
but on this point I think Vinge has got it right.
I think the net in __A Fire Upon the Deep__ really captures the flavor
of the net as it exists today. Vinge is obviously a lurker. Nevertheless,
most of the criticisms of the net in AFutD have been cogent.
Doug Baker
cba...@wam.umd.edu
Ethan A Merritt
>
>Vinge did leave it in as a clue (by accident at first, and then later
>deliberately) but he did not expect the reader to catch it, since he gave
>no other hints or other evidence that Twirlip of the Mists was actually one
>of the best informed characters on the net.
That's a bit strong. After all, some of us did pick up the Twirlip had
most of the story right (though I'll admit that I didn't catch the
possible application of "hexapodia" to the skrode riders). The evidence
_was_ in the book, though never emphasized. Isn't that what this
thread is discussing (and without any of the contributers other than
Brad having read Vinge's hypertext)?
>He was trying, rather obscurely, to make a point about the sort of net he
>envisions. He thinks that people will set up their software to mostly
>show them postings that think the way they do, that can be easily
>understood. Twirlip knows the truth but is such a strange creature that
>most people won't even read his messages.
Yes, and I think the point is well made.
Someone earlier in the thread refered to Twirlip's posts as an example of
the signal-to-noise problem. And of course it is, but in a subtler way
than I think that poster meant at the time. If translation difficulties
cause problems in processing Twirlip-like messages, then they are filtered
out as "noise" by those looking for a "signal" they understand.
But to someone with a perfect information filter Twirlip's
contribution is high-quality "signal", and it is the poor translation
which contributes the "noise".
It's not just that Twirlip is a strange creature, but that any attempt
to apply noise filters to the information in the net will immediately
run into problems in deciding what is "noise" and what is "signal".
>Is it true that netizens have 101 buttons under their fingers?
Huh?
Ethan A Merritt
mer...@u.washington.edu
Joe Slater
For the purpose of comment I enclose Vinge's notes on this, quoted more
completely than Brad did.
[Ravna is reading Twirlip's message] "Hexapodia? Six legs? Three pairs of
legs? Probably none of these translations was close to what the bewildered
creature of Twirlip had in its mind. Ravna didn't read any more of that
posting."
Vinge notes:
"Heh, heh: ... or three pairs of wheels? I wonder what would have
happened if Ravna had just read a little further. In some weird way,
Twirlip knows the Secret of the Riders. I wonder how many people will
catch this. It's really not up to the level of a legitimate clue (I didn't
notice it until after I wrote it) -- but if it were, Ravna would have
instantly caught on to it. This is a special case of something you might
use elsewhere: Even though the Known Net has enormous connectivity, the
interests of the participants and the prejudices of the newsfilter
software would tend to create virtual partitions. There could be large
segments that, sometimes unknowingly, are ignoring each other. Most of the
time this would just improve efficiency; in some cases great insights
would be lost. (Hence, I bet some people or their automation would expend
lots of effort dredging the unintelligible. Even that would not eliminate
the problem.)"
I love this guy. He takes existing technology, cubes it, solves its
problems, then identifies an underlying problem we have yet to deal with
in the existing system. I read a lot of junk on Usenet, and I miss a lot
of stuff I'd be interested in. We already use filters: we call them
newsgroups. We hope that nothing interesting was posted in groups we
don't read. Some of us use Perl to scan for names like Kibo or words like
Mason (thereby guaranteeing at least three people will read this post).
This isn't enough, and won't be enough as the net grows. Eventually we'll
need a new paradigm for the net, or Vinge's AI filters.
Vinge's note covers the earlier argument in this newsgroup very well. If
you're swamped by information there's no way to filter it perfectly. Ravna
needed to know the Secret of the Riders, but she didn't know she needn't
to know it, so she didn't know it. Likewise, her filters thought the
message was rubbish. We already see a lot of this. Less, perhaps in this
newsgroup, but in many newsgroups the most informed postings come from
people with limited English communication skills. If you don't struggle to
understand them you lose the messages that would most benefit you.
I can't think of any solutions within the news paradigm. Imminent Death
of the Net, anyone?
jds
--
j...@zikzak.apana.org.au | If I have been given to see further
T: +61-3-525-8728 F: +61-3-562-0756 | than other men, it is because I have
If all else fails try Fidonet: | stood on the faces of midgets.
joe_s...@f351.n632.z3.fidonet.org | - Astrel Joie