After the villian is defeated
Lots42
nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
dungeon?
Has something like this been done?
Joe Pfeiffer
``The Empty House,'' by A. Conan Doyle. OT, but (of course, all
Sherlock Holes is) a great story.
--
Joseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605
Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002
New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer
Southwestern NM Regional Science and Engr Fair: http://www.nmsu.edu/~scifair
rmtodd
Although the author doesn't go into too much detail about it, there's
one bit in Bujold's _Mirror Dance_ that comes to mind where we find out what
the lackeys of a certain Evil Person do after he gets his much-deserved
assassination (basically, they all decide to leave as fast as possible).
Mark Atwood
>
> What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> dungeon?
>
> Has something like this been done?
Isn't that actually the backstory of the Lord of the Rings? The
evil villain being the surviving lackey of the nigh omnipotent
villain defeated long ago...
--
Mark Atwood | Well done is better than well said.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Dan Clore
>
> lot...@aol.comaol.com (Lots42) writes:
> >
> > What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> > citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> > dungeon?
> >
> > Has something like this been done?
>
> Isn't that actually the backstory of the Lord of the Rings? The
> evil villain being the surviving lackey of the nigh omnipotent
> villain defeated long ago...
Also see "The Scouring of the Shire" at the end of the
trilogy.
--
Dan Clore
Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
All my fiction through 2001 and more. Intro by S.T. Joshi.
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe and Necronomicon Page:
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News for Anarchists & Activists:
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Said Smygo, the iconoclast of Zothique: "Bear a hammer with
thee always, and break down any terminus on which is
written: 'So far shalt thou pass, but no further go.'"
--Clark Ashton Smith
Lois Tilton
>
> > I've had a story swimming about in my head that starts a few seconds after the
> > nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
> >
> > What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> > citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> > dungeon?
> >
> > Has something like this been done?
In Vance's LYONNESSE trilogy, a couple such villains are defeated,
and Vance describes the consequences to the losing side in a
typically Vancean manner.
I had a story myself on this subject in a long-ago DRAGON magazine: "Breaking the
Wall".
--
LT
Johnny1A
One the nasty things about a battle or war of any sort is that the
_winner_ has to clean up the mess.
For example, after the Evil Overlord is overthrown, someone has to see
to it that his lackeys don't set up their own miniempires, or that
various factions of the populace don't take advantage of his absence
to settle personal scores with other factions, etc.
Has there ever been a story where the heroes, after beating the evil
overlord, decide to keep him in power on a short leash as the lesser
evil?
Shermanlee
Michael Lo
> lot...@aol.comaol.com (Lots42) writes:
> >
> > What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> > citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> > dungeon?
> >
> > Has something like this been done?
>
> Isn't that actually the backstory of the Lord of the Rings? The
> evil villain being the surviving lackey of the nigh omnipotent
> villain defeated long ago...
Yup, Morgoth makes Sauron look like a flower-sniffing pansy. Heck
Sauron was beaten three times by mortals. Beating Morgoth always
took the rest of the spirits and the elves at the peak of their
civillization
Brenda W. Clough
>lot...@aol.comaol.com (Lots42) writes:
>
>>What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
>>citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
>>dungeon?
>>
>>Has something like this been done?
>>
>
>Isn't that actually the backstory of the Lord of the Rings? The
>evil villain being the surviving lackey of the nigh omnipotent
>villain defeated long ago...
>
And one of the major themes of LOTR was that the surviving lackey was
unable to think of anything new and interesting to do with the remnants
of Old Omnipotent's power. Once again into the breach , dear friends,
with the dark hordes and the evil armies! Nor were the chief opponents,
the Elves, able to really get a creative handle on the problem. Which
is why the Fourth Age is that of Men -- because the older races have run
dry.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Brenda W. Clough
Why sure -- read the WASHINGTON POST from about 1991 or so. Saddam
Hussein, this is your cue.
Geoduck
I gather that Zelazny edited a collection of short stories on this
theme called _Forever After_. I've only heard about it, never gotten a
chance to read it.
--
Geoduck
http://www.olywa.net/cook
Keith Morrison
> That said, I always wanted a version of the David-Goliath story where,
> after G bites the dust, the Philistines realize they *still* outnumber
> D's army by 10:1 or so.
Starting off with the scene where David stands triumphant over the corpse
of Goliath and, while gloating, receives an arrow between the shoulder
blades.
--
Keith
Ross TenEyck
JMS did something like this in _Babylon 5._ Once the good guys
defeated the ancient inimical powers that were threatening to
destroy civilization-as-we-know-it, their troubles were really
just beginning.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
David Johnston
> Mark Atwood wrote:
>
> >lot...@aol.comaol.com (Lots42) writes:
> >
> >>What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> >>citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> >>dungeon?
> >>
> >>Has something like this been done?
> >>
> >
> >Isn't that actually the backstory of the Lord of the Rings? The
> >evil villain being the surviving lackey of the nigh omnipotent
> >villain defeated long ago...
> >
>
> And one of the major themes of LOTR was that the surviving lackey was
> unable to think of anything new and interesting to do with the remnants
> of Old Omnipotent's power. Once again into the breach , dear friends,
> with the dark hordes and the evil armies!
I don't really agree. His scheme with the rings was an idea that Morgoth never
tried. Of course Morgoth was too powerful to need to be sneaky.
Keith Morrison
>>I've had a story swimming about in my head that starts a few seconds after the
>>nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>>
>>What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
>>citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
>>dungeon?
>>
>>Has something like this been done?
>
> I gather that Zelazny edited a collection of short stories on this
> theme called _Forever After_. I've only heard about it, never gotten a
> chance to read it.
David Drake included one of them in his collection _All the Way to the
Gallows_. The basic premise was, after the Plot Coupons to defeat the
Evil Overlord had been used, they had to be returned to the out-of-the-
way places they had come from. Drake's story was about the small group
carrying the talking magic ring that just wouldn't shut the hell up.
And the Amazon leader who had the hots for the princess, the sidekicks
competing to see who would have the more spectacular death, a gigantic
invisible rabbit and a mountain roaming around looking for some guy
named Mohammed.
--
Keith
Brian Palmer
> lot...@aol.comaol.com (Lots42) wrote in message news:<20021027231317...@mb-fx.aol.com>...
> One the nasty things about a battle or war of any sort is that the
> _winner_ has to clean up the mess.
>
> For example, after the Evil Overlord is overthrown, someone has to see
> to it that his lackeys don't set up their own miniempires, or that
> various factions of the populace don't take advantage of his absence
> to settle personal scores with other factions, etc.
>
> Has there ever been a story where the heroes, after beating the evil
> overlord, decide to keep him in power on a short leash as the lesser
> evil?
I thought that was the basic idea behind the Jedi universe
(post-movies): the Empire is dead, but there are many remnants of the
Empire (at least some of which are large enough to give the Rebellion
trouble on their own), so the Heroic Crew turn into diplomats and try
to persuade everybody to make nice together.
--
If you want divine justice, die.
-- Nick Seldon
how...@brazee.net
how...@brazee.net
thanks the hero for promoting him and then shot the hero. (the hero didn't
die).
Christopher Henrich
<clo...@erols.com> wrote:
> Johnny1A wrote:
> >
> >Has there ever been a story where the heroes, after beating the evil
> >overlord, decide to keep him in power on a short leash as the lesser
> >evil?
> >
>
> Why sure -- read the WASHINGTON POST from about 1991 or so. Saddam
> Hussein, this is your cue.
>
Yes... and this is also one way of looking at world history post 1945.
(With the complication that the Saruman-analogue is (as of
1945)definitely not overthrown.)
--
Chris Henrich
Allen Varney
overlord, decide to keep him in power on a short leash as the lesser
evil?>>>
I wrote a standalone sharecropped novel (CAST OF FATE, TSR, 1996) that
worked as a kind of unconventional "sequel" to an unwritten (and, by
implication, far more conventional) original. It took place ten years after
the good-elf heroes won their glorious victory over the bad-elf villains.
The whole story portrayed the two cultures living in a tense, standoffish
peace, with the good guys as a reluctant occupying power, while the local
ruler labored to find a social framework in which the two races could
productively coexist. Lots of Vancean intrigue, rather than straight epic
fantasy.
Unfortunately, after I turned in the book, TSR called in another writer
to systematically rewrite it to an 11-year-old reading level. He also
completely reversed the ending to obviate my original point. I thought about
repudiating the thing publicly, but you know, repudiating a sharecropped TSR
novel would only make people laugh.
-- Allen Varney
http://www.allenvarney.com
Mark Reichert
I'll come more to the point than somebody who has already mentioned the series:
Season 5 of Babylon 5.
Mark Atwood
>
> Has there ever been a story where the heroes, after beating the evil
> overlord, decide to keep him in power on a short leash as the lesser
> evil?
The "Warlock" series kinda has that at the beginning...
David Johnston
>
> sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) writes:
> >
> > Has there ever been a story where the heroes, after beating the evil
> > overlord, decide to keep him in power on a short leash as the lesser
> > evil?
>
> The "Warlock" series kinda has that at the beginning...
Piers Anthony has the Evil Magician from one Xanth book eventually be appointed
Good King.
Jens Kilian
> Sauron was beaten three times by mortals.
He was beaten by a *dog*, once, when he was still at the height of his power.
--
mailto:j...@acm.org phone:+49-7031-464-7698 (TELNET 778-7698)
http://www.bawue.de/~jjk/ fax:+49-7031-464-7351
PGP: 06 04 1C 35 7B DC 1F 26 As the air to a bird, or the sea to a fish,
0x555DA8B5 BB A2 F0 66 77 75 E1 08 so is contempt to the contemptible. [Blake]
Joel Baxter
> Iwillnev...@hotmail.com (Michael Lo) writes:
>
>>Sauron was beaten three times by mortals.
>
> He was beaten by a *dog*, once, when he was still at the height of his power.
Good doggie. *pat* *pat*
joy beeson
>Has there ever been a story where the heroes, after beating the evil
>overlord, decide to keep him in power on a short leash as the lesser
>evil?
I just finished reading Biggle's _Monument_.
Joy Beeson
--
joy beeson at earthlink dot net
http://home.earthlink.net/~joybeeson/ -- needlework
http://home.earthlink.net/~beeson_n3f/ -- Writers' Exchange
Charlie Stross
as <lot...@aol.comaol.com> declared:
> I've had a story swimming about in my head that starts a few seconds after the
> nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>
> What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> dungeon?
>
> Has something like this been done?
Repeatedly.
E.g.: Mike Cobley's "Shadowkings" fantasy trilogy starts with the death of
the Dark Lord -- it's about the scrabble for supremacy among his minions
and freedom among the victims.
-- Charlie
Mike Schilling
>
> I've had a story swimming about in my head that starts a few seconds after
the
> nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>
> What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> dungeon?
>
> Has something like this been done?
Things was run right when Mr. Morgoth was still here. He knew how to show
them elves what was what, not flattering and fawning like this new one does.
The dinner guests was gentlefolk like Maia and Balrogs, and it was a
pleasure to serve them. We don't even set out the good mithril for them
orcs that come these days. And what sort of hobby is jewelry-making! You
don't suppose he's... well, I know it's not my place to say, but that Mr.
Sauron's not a proper Dark Lord, not at all.
Matt Ruff
> I've had a story swimming about in my head that starts a few seconds after the
> nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>
> What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> dungeon?
>
> Has something like this been done?
"Gone With the Wind"?
-- M. Ruff
David E. Siegel
Beren and Luthien did it, and they were both morttals, althogh very
favored mortals, and she was descended from Melian, who was an
immortal Ainu ( I think that is the sinular).
-DES
Serg
> Mark Atwood wrote:
>
> >lot...@aol.comaol.com (Lots42) writes:
> >
> >>What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> >>citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> >>dungeon?
> >>
> >>Has something like this been done?
> >>
> >
> >Isn't that actually the backstory of the Lord of the Rings? The
> >evil villain being the surviving lackey of the nigh omnipotent
> >villain defeated long ago...
> >
>
>
> And one of the major themes of LOTR was that the surviving lackey was
> unable to think of anything new and interesting to do with the remnants
> of Old Omnipotent's power. Once again into the breach , dear friends,
> with the dark hordes and the evil armies!
There is a book, sadly availabale in russian only - Dihinov, _Black
Lord Diary_
After numeroud defeats and banishing Black Lord decided to try
something new - join the strongest/winning side i.e forces of light.
His sidekick reasonably asked - but what in this case constitute
victory ? Black Lord decided no to ponder this question and promptly
erased his memories to be reborn in the future hero surrounding. His
memory should have return in some not quite determined moment in
future...
Michael S. Schiffer
news:sf65vl4...@bstde026.germany.agilent.com:
> Iwillnev...@hotmail.com (Michael Lo) writes:
>> Sauron was beaten three times by mortals.
> He was beaten by a *dog*, once, when he was still at the height
> of his power.
But an *immortal*[1] dog, for whatever that was worth. So that may
not count as "being beaten by mortals". Similarly, Luthien only
became mortal after beating Sauron. However, since Isildur was the
point man in the War of the Last Alliance and three hobbits were the
critical factor in the War of the Ring, that's at least two defeats
primarily attributable to mortals. (Whether his imprisonment by Ar-
Pharazon counts as a third is an interesting question, since Tolkien
says that while his armies were vanquished, Sauron was only feigning
his own defeat to get to Numenor.)
Mike
[1] Immortal in the sense of not dying of old age, rather than
immortal in the sense of being unkillable.
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
H. Torrance Griffin
> nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>
> citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> dungeon?
>
> Has something like this been done?
Well... you could dig part two and three of Doyle's 'Mageworlds'
trilogy to see the results of an attempt to do so (yes, it did
backfire for a minute).
HTG
cd skogsberg
>Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
>as <lot...@aol.comaol.com> declared:
>> I've had a story swimming about in my head that starts a few
>> seconds after the nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>> What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the
>> oppresed citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster,
>> still chained in the dungeon?
>> Has something like this been done?
>Repeatedly.
See for example Mary Gentle's _Grunts!_.
>E.g.: Mike Cobley's "Shadowkings" fantasy trilogy starts with the
>death of the Dark Lord -- it's about the scrabble for supremacy among
>his minions and freedom among the victims.
Is that a recommendation?
/cd
--
"A killfile on Usenet can get you peace and quiet. A killfile in the real
world can get you 20 to life." -- Nils Nieuwejaar
Craig Richardson
>Beren and Luthien did it, and they were both morttals, althogh very
>favored mortals, and she was descended from Melian, who was an
>immortal Ainu ( I think that is the sinular).
I'm sure the people of more standard Asian stock who migrated across
the Sea of Japan ten thousand or so years ago were glad that there are
very few, if any, immortal Ainu. If there were, Japanese history
might be quite different.
--Craig
--
Managing the Devil Rays is something like competing on "Iron Chef",
and having Chairman Kaga reveal a huge ziggurat of lint.
Gary Huckabay, Baseball Prospectus Online, August 21, 2002
Robert Carnegie
<kei...@polarnet.ca> writes
If I'm on the same page, the set as a whole had a bit of a sting in
the tail, albeit rather an obvious one as it went on.
A few people may remember what happened to Prince Argon in
Marvel Comics' _Micronauts_ series.
Robert Carnegie at home, rja.ca...@excite.com at large
--
"At Camberwell magistrates' court last Tuesday, two women convicted of
running a brothel at Tooting Bec were each ordered to do 200 hours'
service to the community." - Evening Standard
Robert Carnegie
om>, Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> writes
That is awfully wrong. Very well done :-)
What If - Morgoth had started with Hobbits instead of with Elves...
Vaguely reminded too of Terry Pratchett's _Wyrd Sisters_, which
more or less opens with the old king being murdered and
usurped or possibly in the opposite order, I am not sure how that
works. Anyway, later on, the heroic witches reminisce about the
old king being a much better ruler than the new king, although he
did raise rather heavy taxes and imprison and torture people and
exercise his droit de seigneur with little regard for public right of
way. The new king does a bit of that, except the droit de seigneur,
but his heart isn't in it and /that's/ the problem...he doesn't do it
/properly./
Mary K. Kuhner
Lots42 <lot...@aol.comaol.com> wrote:
>I've had a story swimming about in my head that starts a few seconds after the
>nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
>citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
>dungeon?
>Has something like this been done?
Sean Stewart's _Nobody's Son_ starts just after the woodcutter has
defeated the great evil and won the hand of the king's daughter in
marriage. It's a wonderful book.
If you can make a good story of it, go for it! It may have been
done, but it certainly hasn't been overdone.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@eskimo.com
Charlie Stross
>>E.g.: Mike Cobley's "Shadowkings" fantasy trilogy starts with the
>>death of the Dark Lord -- it's about the scrabble for supremacy among
>>his minions and freedom among the victims.
>
> Is that a recommendation?
It's on my to-read shelf. I can't comment either way.
-- Charlie
Lois Tilton
> >In Vance's LYONNESSE trilogy, a couple such villains are defeated,
> >and Vance describes the consequences to the losing side in a
> >typically Vancean manner.
>
> Hmm, the way that the Hero really was noble and honest and true and
> just when dealing with his defeated enemies struck me as atypical for
> Vance.
I thought that was in keeping with his character, generally.
But the absence of merciful impulses and sentimentality struck me as quite
Vancean.
--
LT
Shaad M. Ahmad
<how...@brazee.net> wrote:
Darn it, I've read this too, Howard. It isn't Peter David's _Sir Apropos
of Nothing_, is it?
- Shaad
Johnny1A
> >
> > Yup, Morgoth makes Sauron look like a flower-sniffing pansy. Heck
> > Sauron was beaten three times by mortals. Beating Morgoth always
> > took the rest of the spirits and the elves at the peak of their
> > civillization
>
> Beren and Luthien did it, and they were both morttals, althogh very
> favored mortals, and she was descended from Melian, who was an
> immortal Ainu ( I think that is the sinular).
>
> -DES
Beren was the greatest of all the Secondborn. Luthien was the
daughter of one of the three highest Elven Kings and also the daughter
of Melian, an Ainu of power rivaling that of Sauron, and had had
literally thousands of years to learn from her mother's secrets.
With that combined background, they _barely_ managed, with the help of
Huan, a dose of luck, and great effort, to abscond with _one_
Silmaril, at high cost.
Shermanlee
David Goldfarb
Mary K. Kuhner <mkku...@kingman.gs.washington.edu> wrote:
>Sean Stewart's _Nobody's Son_ starts just after the woodcutter has
>defeated the great evil and won the hand of the king's daughter in
>marriage. It's a wonderful book.
Well, technically no -- he does spend a couple dozen pages at the
front of the book winning said hand. It's not what the book is
*about* I will grant you, but it does help establish the hero's
character, and features some interesting bits.
--
David Goldfarb <*>| "Oh no, foolish Jed, you have let out
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | the verbal gerbils!"
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- _Sandman_ #11
Jack Tingle
The second half of my favorite Stewart novel, "Cloud's End" is also an
aspect this story. The first half is the quest, then the second is
getting home and sweeping up the mess. In this case, the 'mess' is
the personal mess of the protagonists.
Regards,
Jack Tingle
Jerry Friedman
> nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>
> What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> dungeon?
>
> Has something like this been done?
Along with the suggestions so far, of which my favorite is Matt
Ruff's, there's Lawrence Watt-Evans's trilogy beginning with _Out of
This World_.
A bit different, but related, are some of Ursula Le Guin's recent
novellas, showing that things on Werel didn't work out as well as we
expected after the endings of _Planet of Exile_ and *spoiler*.
It's possible that Gene Wolfe's _Book of the Long Sun_ would qualify,
as the nigh-ominipotent villain was killed before the tetralogy
started (having been killed once or twice in an earlier book, sort of,
by the way), and the sub-villains are squabbling.
--
Jerry Friedman
--
Jerry Friedman
Kate Nepveu
>Good doggie. *pat* *pat*
Thank you for my laugh for the day.
--
Kate Nepveu
E-mail: kne...@steelypips.org
Home: http://www.steelypips.org/
Book log: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/
Mark Blunden
> I've had a story swimming about in my head that starts a few seconds
> after the nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>
> What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained
> in the dungeon?
>
> Has something like this been done?
I can't believe this thread has got this far without anybody mentioning
George RR Martin's 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series, which basically reads
like a cynic's sequel to the stereotypical heroic-victory-over-evil-overlord
fantasy story.
Much of the backstory to the novels revolves around the current (as of book
1) king's defeat of the evil king Aerys and the deposition of the nefarious
Targaryen dynasty. The books, starting around 20(?) years later, then detail
the terrible fallout and consequences of these events, starting from the
basic principle that the sort of guy who's perfect for heroically deposing
an evil king is not necessarily the sort of guy who would make a decent king
himself.
--
Mark.
* I'm playing all the right notes. Not necessarily in the right order.
Simon Slavin
sherm...@hotmail.com (Johnny1A) wrote:
>Has there ever been a story where the heroes, after beating the evil
>overlord, decide to keep him in power on a short leash as the lesser
>evil?
Lloyd Biggle, Jr.: _Monument_
Expanded into a novella of the same name.
Joel Baxter
Everything you say is spot-on, but probably ASoIaF hasn't made it's way
into this thread because IMO it doesn't quite match the scenario from up
top. Mad King Aerys was, well, "mad", but the main effect was that he
was beginning to chew up and spit out nearby members of the high court.
He wasn't omnipotent (or nigh-), most of his lackeys weren't
particularly loyal, the citizenry apparently didn't give much of a damn
whether Aerys or somebody else was on the throne, and no monsters in the
dungeon. :-)
Kate Nepveu
Speaking of which--
How is that? The cover and blurbs do nothing for me, but I did see
some decent reviews here and there.
Konrad Gaertner
>
Some Spoilers for A Song of Ice and Fire
> Everything you say is spot-on, but probably ASoIaF hasn't made it's way
> into this thread because IMO it doesn't quite match the scenario from up
> top. Mad King Aerys was, well, "mad", but the main effect was that he
> was beginning to chew up and spit out nearby members of the high court.
> He wasn't omnipotent (or nigh-), most of his lackeys weren't
> particularly loyal, the citizenry apparently didn't give much of a damn
> whether Aerys or somebody else was on the throne, and no monsters in the
> dungeon. :-)
That's because the dungeons were filled with high explosives that
Aerys was about to set off when Jaime killed him.
--KG
Shaad M. Ahmad
Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>sh...@Stanford.EDU (Shaad M. Ahmad) wrote:
>> In article <6xnv9.796$Ik6....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>><how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
>>>I'm trying to remember a novel where halfway through the book, the henchman
>>>thanks the hero for promoting him and then shot the hero. (the hero didn't
>>>die).
>>
>> Darn it, I've read this too, Howard. It isn't Peter David's _Sir Apropos
>>of Nothing_, is it?
>
>Speaking of which--
>
>How is that? The cover and blurbs do nothing for me, but I did see
>some decent reviews here and there.
Better than most of the tripe that seems to be published as fantasy
nowadays, Kate, but that's really not saying much, is it? Peter David uses
an antihero in a fairly inventive way to play with the trappings of the
heroic fantasy genre, and in general it's not a bad read, but there are
times when he seems to be trying too hard, and the tone gets too shrill.
Think of it as Fraser's Flashman set in a generic heroic fantasy,
albeit not handled with the same level of skill.
Regards.
- Shaad
gary hayenga
_Sir Apropo of Nothing_ is really quite good. Darkly amusing with an
anti-hero who you can sympathize with without actually liking.
The sequel, _The Woad to Wuin_, is even worse than the title might lead
you to believe. Avoid it.
gary hayenga
Andrew Maizels
> Sir Apropo of Nothing_ is really quite good. Darkly amusing with an
> anti-hero who you can sympathize with without actually liking.
>
> The sequel, _The Woad to Wuin_, is even worse than the title might lead
> you to believe. Avoid it.
Darn. _Apropos_ was (I thought) good, if flawed, so I was hoping that
the sequel might keep the good and knock off some of the flaws.
Oh well.
Andrew.
--
Google fthagn! Google fthagn! Ia Google! Ia! Ia!
J Greely
>Darn. _Apropos_ was (I thought) good, if flawed, so I was hoping that
>the sequel might keep the good and knock off some of the flaws.
Quite the opposite, I think, much like the way he recently took one of
his charming early novels ("Knight Life"), ripped out the heart, and
replaced it with a great deal of padding.
Apropos was a good read. Wuin, not so good, even without the ring
thing.
-j
Kate Nepveu
>Shaad M. Ahmad wrote:
>> In article <0kr0sugao7aqiorla...@news.earthlink.net>,
>> Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>>>How is that? The cover and blurbs do nothing for me, but I did see
>>>some decent reviews here and there.
>> Better than most of the tripe that seems to be published as fantasy
>> nowadays, Kate, but that's really not saying much, is it? Peter David uses
>> an antihero in a fairly inventive way to play with the trappings of the
>> heroic fantasy genre, and in general it's not a bad read, but there are
>> times when he seems to be trying too hard, and the tone gets too shrill.
>> Think of it as Fraser's Flashman set in a generic heroic fantasy,
>> albeit not handled with the same level of skill.
>_Sir Apropo of Nothing_ is really quite good. Darkly amusing with an
>anti-hero who you can sympathize with without actually liking.
>The sequel, _The Woad to Wuin_, is even worse than the title might lead
>you to believe. Avoid it.
Thanks for the input--sounds like the first is a library book and the
second will be avoided.
John M. Gamble
As in "The Dragon Masters".
--
-john
February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.
Nix
> A bit different, but related, are some of Ursula Le Guin's recent
> novellas, showing that things on Werel didn't work out as well as we
> expected after the endings of _Planet of Exile_ and *spoiler*.
I seem to remember Le Guin saying in a preface somewhere that the Werel
in _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ is *not* the same one as the one in
_Planet of Exile_, and that she accidentally gave two completely
different worlds the same name.
--
`The library at my secondary school was there for punishment, I think. I
did liberate a number of books because I felt sorry for them.'
--- Marna Gilligan
James Nicoll
Nix <$}xinix{$@esperi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I seem to remember Le Guin saying in a preface somewhere that the Werel
>in _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ is *not* the same one as the one in
>_Planet of Exile_, and that she accidentally gave two completely
>different worlds the same name.
Hey, if there can be multiple Portlands, Waterloos, Memphises
and Londons, two Werels seems reasonable. It just sucks if you step
off the NAFAL starship and discover you spent twenty rest frame years
traveling to the wrong one.
James Nicoll,
expecting about a gajillion 'New Earths'.
--
"Repress the urge to sprout wings or self-ignite!...This man's an
Episcopalian!...They have definite views."
Pibgorn Oct 31/02
Lots42
>the sequel might keep the good and knock off some of the flaws.
>
>Oh well.
>
>Andrew.
It did do exactly that. Just don't read the inside of the book cover because,
my god, someone must have insanely hated the book to write such a blurb that
spoils everything.
Walter Bushell
<Snip>
> "At Camberwell magistrates' court last Tuesday, two women convicted of
> running a brothel at Tooting Bec were each ordered to do 200 hours'
> service to the community." - Evening Standard
Why not sentance them to be served by the community for 200 hours or is
that in this case the same thing?
--
New York, NY A Wonderful town./The Bronx is up and the Battery's down./
And people come to see/A hole in the ground.
Walter
Nix
> expecting about a gajillion 'New Earths'.
There'll be entirely too many New Californias too...
Us Brits are in a bit of trouble though because we've already *used* New
England and New various parts of Wales. I guess New Britain would be OK,
(although it sounds too much like Labour's last-but-one campaign
slogan...)
New Ireland and New Scotland have also been taken (if just in fiction),
and we'd better damned well not put New Ireland in a system with any
other inhabited planets in. It might be wise to have two worlds,
New Northern Ireland and New Eire. ;}
--
`Beware the man who has only read one book.' --- David Iain Greig
Robert A. Woodward
Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 2 Nov 2002, James Nicoll muttered drunkenly:
> > expecting about a gajillion 'New Earths'.
>
> There'll be entirely too many New Californias too...
>
> Us Brits are in a bit of trouble though because we've already *used* New
> England and New various parts of Wales. I guess New Britain would be OK,
> (although it sounds too much like Labour's last-but-one campaign
> slogan...)
>
I thought there was a New Britain? ... checking atlas ... And a New
Ireland (Bismark Archipelago, north east of the island of New Guina).
--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
>Us Brits are in a bit of trouble though because we've already *used* New
>England and New various parts of Wales. I guess New Britain would be OK,
>(although it sounds too much like Labour's last-but-one campaign
>slogan...)
There's a New Britain somewhere in the Pacific, as I recall.
--
The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 10/12/02
My latest novel is THE DRAGON SOCIETY, published by Tor.
Robert Carnegie
Bushell <pr...@panix.com> writes
>Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote:
><Snip>
>> "At Camberwell magistrates' court last Tuesday, two women convicted
>of
>> running a brothel at Tooting Bec were each ordered to do 200 hours'
>> service to the community." - Evening Standard
>
>Why not sentance them to be served by the community for 200 hours or is
>that in this case the same thing?
Probably. I think it's made the more charming by the London
newspaper's use of the local place name Tooting Bec, which
does indeed sound absurd to native ears as well as to ears
overseas. It would still be funny without, though.
>New York, NY A Wonderful town./The Bronx is up and the Battery's down./
>And people come to see/A hole in the ground.
SNL?
Robert Carnegie at home, rja.ca...@excite.com at large
Robert Carnegie
<jdni...@panix.com> writes
>In article <87r8e4n...@amaterasu.srvr.nix>,
>Nix <$}xinix{$@esperi.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>I seem to remember Le Guin saying in a preface somewhere that the
>Werel
>>in _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ is *not* the same one as the one in
>>_Planet of Exile_, and that she accidentally gave two completely
>>different worlds the same name.
>
> Hey, if there can be multiple Portlands, Waterloos, Memphises
>and Londons, two Werels seems reasonable. It just sucks if you step
>off the NAFAL starship and discover you spent twenty rest frame years
>traveling to the wrong one.
>
> James Nicoll,
> expecting about a gajillion 'New Earths'.
I didn't know Le Guin had Tuckerised James Nicoll into one of her
novels..."The Man who Lost his Planet" :-)
It isn't your /bukstor/ where the aliens plant a planet-killer bomb in
that novella by, um, Asimov? (just maybe Clarke) and no one can
figure out where it is, so we lose.
Robert Carnegie at home, rja.ca...@excite.com at large
--
Charlie Stross
as <nix-ra...@esperi.demon.co.uk> declared:
> Us Brits are in a bit of trouble though because we've already *used* New
> England and New various parts of Wales. I guess New Britain would be OK,
> (although it sounds too much like Labour's last-but-one campaign
> slogan...)
Hmm. How about New Glasgae, where the standard polite greeting in formal
society is "giya 'ead-butt, jimmie" and nobody with any sense wanders
around urban areas on a Saturday night without a pair of taped razor
blades and the traditional orange fright-wig?
Naah, much too obvious.
> New Ireland and New Scotland have also been taken (if just in fiction),
> and we'd better damned well not put New Ireland in a system with any
> other inhabited planets in. It might be wise to have two worlds,
> New Northern Ireland and New Eire. ;}
Surely New Ulster and something much more unpronouncable and Gaelic?
-- Charlie
James Nicoll
ObSF: _A Spaceship Built for Brew_, in which the orbits of
various terraformed asteroids bring mutually hostile nations within
reach of each other from time to time.
Jerry Friedman
> On 30 Oct 2002, Jerry Friedman uttered the following:
> > A bit different, but related, are some of Ursula Le Guin's recent
> > novellas, showing that things on Werel didn't work out as well as we
> > expected after the endings of _Planet of Exile_ and *spoiler*.
>
> I seem to remember Le Guin saying in a preface somewhere that the Werel
> in _Four Ways to Forgiveness_ is *not* the same one as the one in
> _Planet of Exile_, and that she accidentally gave two completely
> different worlds the same name.
Thanks! Guess I'll have to re-evaluate those stories (which I read in magazines).
--
Jerry Friedman
Luke Silburn
> Surely New Ulster and something much more unpronouncable and Gaelic?
>
Eire *is* gaelic. I was roundly ridiculed by an Irish girl once for being oh-
so-culturally-sensitive and referring to Eire - preferred terminology of
earnest Brits (guilty yer honour), rebel-singing loons and Gaelic teachers -
rather than Ireland (what everyone in the Republic calls it apart from the
Gaelic teachers and the rebel-singing loons who aren't in dodgy Kilburn
pubs).
The minefield that is political correctness.... the horror.
Luke
--
I don't speak for Logica, Logica don't speak for me.
It's best that way.
artyw
> I've had a story swimming about in my head that starts a few seconds after the
> nigh-omnipotent villian is killed...
>
> What about his still surviving loyal lackeys? What about the oppresed
> citizenry, suddenly granted freedom? The pet monster, still chained in the
> dungeon?
>
> Has something like this been done?
Well, not exactly what you want, but Battlefied Earth doesn't end when
the nigh-ominpotent villian(s) are killed.
Jonathan Hendry
"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Ajox9.85$En4....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> On 04 Nov 2002 02:35:27 +0000, Nix <nix-ra...@esperi.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >Us Brits are in a bit of trouble though because we've already *used* New
> >England and New various parts of Wales. I guess New Britain would be OK,
> >(although it sounds too much like Labour's last-but-one campaign
> >slogan...)
>
> There's a New Britain somewhere in the Pacific, as I recall.
There's a New Britain in Connecticut.
Mike Schilling
"Jonathan Hendry" <j_he...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:rZYz9.4397$114.88...@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Lawrence Watt-Evans" <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Ajox9.85$En4....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > There's a New Britain somewhere in the Pacific, as I recall.
>
> There's a New Britain in Connecticut.
There's a new deli in New Delhi.