Ursula Le Guin is next SFWA Grand Master

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Richard Horton

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Jan 7, 2003, 9:56:45 PM1/7/03
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And about time!

I've posted several times that she is the obvious next Grand Master,
and I'm pleased to see that SFWA has at last agreed.

--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)

Mike Schilling

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Jan 8, 2003, 12:57:52 PM1/8/03
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"Richard Horton" <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:NrMS9.338$Rs.17...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

> And about time!
>
> I've posted several times that she is the obvious next Grand Master,
> and I'm pleased to see that SFWA has at last agreed.

Me too, but I'm wondering how long before the complaints about liberal bias
in the SFWA start pouring in, along with the demands that the next Grand
Master be (God help us) Jerry Pournelle.


Anthony Nance

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Jan 8, 2003, 1:18:08 PM1/8/03
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In article <AEZS9.6869$Ul.354...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,

Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
not just Mike.)
- Tony

steve miller

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Jan 8, 2003, 2:00:04 PM1/8/03
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On 8 Jan 2003 18:18:08 GMT, na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance)
wrote:

>Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
>not just Mike.)
>- Tony

Welll ... I'm not so sure that Anne McCaffrey should be discounted, if
one wants to talk about influence on the field; but certainly Robert
Silverberg has got to be near the top of the list, and I 'd guess
Harlan Ellison would have a shot. I don't think longevity by itself
should be the crowning criteria (as some suggest); I could see
reasonable argument made for Russ, or Delany. I also suggest a
longshot -- Peter Beagle.

Steve

www.korval.com/srmcat1.htm Liaden Universe chapbooks
www.embiid.net -- Lee & Miller electronic editions
The Tomorrow Log on sale now at amazon.com & Embiid

Mike Schilling

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Jan 8, 2003, 2:04:21 PM1/8/03
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"Anthony Nance" <na...@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
news:avhq10$n0k$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...

>
> Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
> not just Mike.)

As was suggested upthread (or in the parallel thread) Harlan Ellison. He's
been around forever, has done award-winning work in all categories of SF
(except novels, oddly enough), and has remained active and highly visible in
the field.


Louann Miller

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Jan 8, 2003, 4:15:40 PM1/8/03
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On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:19:46 -0500, Jon Meltzer
<jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:04:21 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
><mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
>>> not just Mike.)
>>
>>As was suggested upthread (or in the parallel thread) Harlan Ellison. He's
>>been around forever, has done award-winning work in all categories of SF
>>(except novels, oddly enough), and has remained active and highly visible in
>>the field.
>

>He'll get it, but there will be an interesting discussion among the
>selection committee ...

This isn't the same as the Grand Master Hugo that gets given out from
time to time, is it? Because I had the vague impression there was one
of those too.

Louann

William December Starr

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Jan 8, 2003, 4:34:47 PM1/8/03
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In article <mjso1vc20mnnqtcnk...@4ax.com>,
s...@korval.com said:

> Welll ... I'm not so sure that Anne McCaffrey should be discounted,
> if one wants to talk about influence on the field; but certainly
> Robert Silverberg has got to be near the top of the list, and I 'd
> guess Harlan Ellison would have a shot.

Is -- and this is intended as a serious question, not a piece of
snide Harlan-bashing -- is Ellison, with his strenuous denials that
what he writes is science fiction, indeed a member of the Science
Fiction Writers of America?

And, come to think of it, is SFWA membership a prerequisite for being
named a Grand Master by them?

-- William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>

steve miller

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Jan 8, 2003, 5:42:11 PM1/8/03
to
On 8 Jan 2003 16:34:47 -0500, wds...@panix.com (William December
Starr) wrote:

> is Ellison, with his strenuous denials that
>what he writes is science fiction, indeed a member of the Science
>Fiction Writers of America?

Yes; as of a year or two ago.

>And, come to think of it, is SFWA membership a prerequisite for being
>named a Grand Master by them?

No.

Andrew Wheeler

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Jan 8, 2003, 8:52:59 PM1/8/03
to
steve miller wrote:
>
> On 8 Jan 2003 16:34:47 -0500, wds...@panix.com (William December
> Starr) wrote:
>
> > is Ellison, with his strenuous denials that
> >what he writes is science fiction, indeed a member of the Science
> >Fiction Writers of America?
>
> Yes; as of a year or two ago.

Wasn't he named a free lifetime member at a Neb Banquet? *That's* one
way to keep him in the fold -- declare that he's a member whether he
wants to be or not! <grin>

> >And, come to think of it, is SFWA membership a prerequisite for being
> >named a Grand Master by them?
>
> No.

Witness the Great Lem Fiasco of a few decades ago.

Anyway, I didn't say nice things anywhere else in these threads, so let
me say here that Le Guin was, to me, *the* one obvious "shoulda" who
wasn't yet a Grand Master. I'm glad SFWA agrees with me -- though I
imagine Sharon Lee deserves most of the credit.

It's great to see it happen. And I do hope we get Silverberg next year
(though that may be mostly because I just read four of his novels in a row).

I do wish SFWA would think of a way to honor those who died before they
could be named Grand Masters -- Phil Dick and Roger Zelazny are the ones
I most wish were in that company. "Dead Masters," anybody?

Hey, another thought -- is there an "Author Emeritus" this year? (Is
that program even still active?)

--
Andrew Wheeler
--
"Oh, hey! We're rehearsing a...a scene for the upcoming company play,
called, ah,....'Put That Thing Back Where It Came From, Or So Help Me!'
It's a musical!"

Andrew Wheeler

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Jan 8, 2003, 8:59:05 PM1/8/03
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There used to be a very large group of people who loathed Ellison (and
vice versa), though I think most of those feuds have died down. He also
spent a long time loudly denying he was a science fiction writer (which,
indeed, he really isn't -- he usually writes a kind of fantasy story
which sometimes uses SFnal imagery), which annoyed some other people he
wasn't actively feuding with. (Then again, SFWA is now officially for
fantasy as well, and he certainly fits under the widened definition.)

If Grand Mastership were given out by cold, remorseless intellects, he'd
be a shoo-in. But it's given out by SF writers, instead...

I'd be surprised if his name hasn't come up in SFWA circles a couple of
times already, but I'd be even more surprised (happily, though) if he
someday does become a GM.

Richard Horton

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Jan 8, 2003, 11:30:19 PM1/8/03
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On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:00:04 GMT, steve miller
<che...@starswarmnews.com> wrote:

>On 8 Jan 2003 18:18:08 GMT, na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance)
>wrote:
>
>>Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
>>not just Mike.)
>>- Tony
>
>Welll ... I'm not so sure that Anne McCaffrey should be discounted, if
>one wants to talk about influence on the field;

I can only reiterate that I disagree.

> but certainly Robert
>Silverberg has got to be near the top of the list, and I 'd guess
>Harlan Ellison would have a shot. I don't think longevity by itself
>should be the crowning criteria (as some suggest); I could see
>reasonable argument made for Russ, or Delany. I also suggest a
>longshot -- Peter Beagle.

Beagle is an interesting suggestion, but I don't think he's been
prolific enough nor close enough to the center of the field.

If people are really worried about "liberal bias" in selection of
Grand Masters, the obvious choice is Gene Wolfe. Other than he, the
only serious potential GM who probably isn't somewhat to the left
might be Silverberg (I don't know much about his politics, actually).
Or Niven, I suppose, but I don't think he sustained excellence for
long enough to be a GM.

Harry Erwin

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Jan 9, 2003, 5:07:44 AM1/9/03
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Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:

What's wrong with Jerry (IYHO)?
--
Harry Erwin <http://www.theworld.com/~herwin/>

Nancy Lebovitz

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Jan 9, 2003, 9:34:05 AM1/9/03
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In article <1foijkk.b5ntma1pu56uoN%her...@theworld.com>,

He's a really minor writer. Or at least, I quit reading him when I realized
that I'd forget what was in his books just about as soon as I finished
reading them.

Seriously, what's striking about his work?
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Bumper stickers *and* buttons

War is how Americans learn geography

Mike Schilling

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Jan 9, 2003, 3:06:23 PM1/9/03
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"Harry Erwin" <her...@theworld.com> wrote in message
news:1foijkk.b5ntma1pu56uoN%her...@theworld.com...

He's a mediocre writer: flat prose, uninteresting characters, plots
consisting of dull spots between battle scenes. And didactic as hell: his
books are full of political diatribes masquerading as dialog.
Unfortunately, that kind of thing succeeds these days. Pournelle is the
father of Military-SF, and as such has a lot to answer for.

His BYTE columns were irritating too -- so much pontification, so little
knowledge or understanding, but that's OT.


Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes

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Jan 9, 2003, 4:08:58 PM1/9/03
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Thu, 09 Jan 2003 14:34:05 GMT, Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix1.netaxs.com>:

> In article <1foijkk.b5ntma1pu56uoN%her...@theworld.com>,
> Harry Erwin <her...@theworld.com> wrote:
>>Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Me too, but I'm wondering how long before the complaints about liberal bias
>>> in the SFWA start pouring in, along with the demands that the next Grand
>>> Master be (God help us) Jerry Pournelle.
>>What's wrong with Jerry (IYHO)?
> He's a really minor writer. Or at least, I quit reading him when I realized
> that I'd forget what was in his books just about as soon as I finished
> reading them.
> Seriously, what's striking about his work?

I don't think "a really minor writer" is a good description of him at
all.

I do like him, but I don't think he's earned a Grand Master for his
solo work. I am very fond of _King David's Spaceship_. _There Will Be
War_ is a superb series with a distinct editorial voice, and I wish all
anthologies would pay very close attention to how TWBW works. The rest
of his CoDominion books, Falkenberg, and the first Janissaries book are
mildly cheesy, but do at least treat military SF with some dignity;
they're not just gunporn like most.

But there should be a GM award for the hivemind "Jerry Pournelle &
Larry Niven". Neither one *quite* deserves it solo, though Larry's
closer, and IMO both are more deserving than Le Guin, who wrote maybe 6
good books more than 25 years ago and lots of crud since. Voting her a
GM is like voting Spider Robinson a GM. It's a mockery.

On the gripping hand (and note where that phrase comes from), it's a
meaningless title, since you have to be at the top of the field, popular
with the current administration, oldish, and yet still living when they
get around to you. This means that, say, Frank Herbert doesn't get one.
Nor John Brunner. Nor Keith Laumer.

--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"We remain convinced that this is the best defensive posture to adopt in
order to minimize casualties when the Great Old Ones return from beyond
the stars to eat our brains." -Charlie Stross, _The Concrete Jungle_

David Bilek

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Jan 9, 2003, 4:33:18 PM1/9/03
to

Huh? Le Guin has more talent in her little finger than either
Pournelle or Niven have in their entire bodies.

-David

Harry Erwin

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Jan 9, 2003, 6:28:34 PM1/9/03
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Jon Meltzer <jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> His fiction isn't that good, IMHO.

It's decent--better than a lot of the 'old masters'.

Harry Erwin

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Jan 9, 2003, 6:28:35 PM1/9/03
to
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix1.netaxs.com> wrote:

> In article <1foijkk.b5ntma1pu56uoN%her...@theworld.com>,
> Harry Erwin <her...@theworld.com> wrote:
> >Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "Richard Horton" <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> >> news:NrMS9.338$Rs.17...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> >> > And about time!
> >> >
> >> > I've posted several times that she is the obvious next Grand Master,
> >> > and I'm pleased to see that SFWA has at last agreed.
> >>
> >> Me too, but I'm wondering how long before the complaints about liberal bias
> >> in the SFWA start pouring in, along with the demands that the next Grand
> >> Master be (God help us) Jerry Pournelle.
> >
> >What's wrong with Jerry (IYHO)?
>
> He's a really minor writer. Or at least, I quit reading him when I realized
> that I'd forget what was in his books just about as soon as I finished
> reading them.
>
> Seriously, what's striking about his work?

He has interesting ideas, and he tells a good story. He's had staying
power.

Tyson Patterson

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Jan 9, 2003, 6:47:49 PM1/9/03
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"Anthony Nance" <na...@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message
news:avhq10$n0k$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...

Robert Silverberg and C. J. Cherryh would be my choices for the next 2.
After that, maybe Niven. In the "too young but should get there if they
keep writing good" category, I would put Bear, Bujold, and maybe Willis.

Tyson Patterson


A.C.

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Jan 9, 2003, 7:04:41 PM1/9/03
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"Tyson Patterson" <cptd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:FSnT9.120092$Hs2.11...@kent.svc.tds.net...

> Robert Silverberg and C. J. Cherryh would be my choices for the next 2.
> After that, maybe Niven. In the "too young but should get there if they
> keep writing good" category, I would put Bear, Bujold, and maybe Willis.

William Gibson.

--
nomadi...@hotmail.com | http://nomadic.simspace.net
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand
Russell


John Schilling

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Jan 9, 2003, 7:58:24 PM1/9/03
to
her...@theworld.com (Harry Erwin) writes:

>Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:


I am as big a fan of Pournelle as you are likely to find, but even I don't
think he has enough first-rate solo work to be in the running for Grand
Master. If we give him full credit for everything that is good in the
Niven/Pournelle collaborations, certainly, but that's a tricky thing to
do with any fairness.

Is a shared Grand Mastership a possibility?


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
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Brandon Ray

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Jan 9, 2003, 9:22:38 PM1/9/03
to

Harry Erwin wrote:

I'm trying to think of an example, and I'm comin' up blank.

--
In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics! -- Homer Simpson


Brandon Ray

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Jan 9, 2003, 9:26:35 PM1/9/03
to

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:

> I don't think "a really minor writer" is a good description of him at
> all.
>
> I do like him, but I don't think he's earned a Grand Master for his
> solo work. I am very fond of _King David's Spaceship_. _There Will Be
> War_ is a superb series with a distinct editorial voice, and I wish all
> anthologies would pay very close attention to how TWBW works. The rest
> of his CoDominion books, Falkenberg, and the first Janissaries book are
> mildly cheesy, but do at least treat military SF with some dignity;
> they're not just gunporn like most.

Tastes vary. I can't think of a solo Pournelle that I would care to read a second
time. Now, if services as an *editor* are factored in (I don't know; are they?)
then you might have a point. He's been involved with some damned fine
anthologies.

> But there should be a GM award for the hivemind "Jerry Pournelle &
> Larry Niven". Neither one *quite* deserves it solo, though Larry's
> closer, and IMO both are more deserving than Le Guin, who wrote maybe 6
> good books more than 25 years ago and lots of crud since. Voting her a
> GM is like voting Spider Robinson a GM. It's a mockery.
>

N&P have written one outstanding collaboration (Mote), and two or three that are
good enough to be worth a reread every few years ("Lucifer's Hammer", "Inferno"
and "Footfall"). The rest of their corpus, imho, is unremarkable.

> On the gripping hand (and note where that phrase comes from), it's a
> meaningless title, since you have to be at the top of the field, popular
> with the current administration, oldish, and yet still living when they
> get around to you. This means that, say, Frank Herbert doesn't get one.
> Nor John Brunner. Nor Keith Laumer.
>

It's a true shame that the people you mention (along with some others) don't
qualify. Does anyone know why GM's have to be still living?

Brenda W. Clough

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Jan 9, 2003, 8:58:36 PM1/9/03
to
Brandon Ray wrote:


It's a quirk of the rules -- the same as for the Nobel Prize, for which
you also have to be alive.

Brenda

--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html

My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/

Richard Horton

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Jan 9, 2003, 9:18:51 PM1/9/03
to
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:04:41 GMT, "A.C."
<nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:

>"Tyson Patterson" <cptd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:FSnT9.120092$Hs2.11...@kent.svc.tds.net...
>
>> Robert Silverberg and C. J. Cherryh would be my choices for the next 2.
>> After that, maybe Niven. In the "too young but should get there if they
>> keep writing good" category, I would put Bear, Bujold, and maybe Willis.
>
>William Gibson.

Cherryh is an interesting thought. She should be considered
eventually -- still a bit young, though.

Joe Haldeman is a name I should have mentioned.

David Bilek

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Jan 9, 2003, 9:48:59 PM1/9/03
to
Richard Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:04:41 GMT, "A.C."
><nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Tyson Patterson" <cptd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:FSnT9.120092$Hs2.11...@kent.svc.tds.net...
>>
>>> Robert Silverberg and C. J. Cherryh would be my choices for the next 2.
>>> After that, maybe Niven. In the "too young but should get there if they
>>> keep writing good" category, I would put Bear, Bujold, and maybe Willis.
>>
>>William Gibson.
>
>Cherryh is an interesting thought. She should be considered
>eventually -- still a bit young, though.
>
>Joe Haldeman is a name I should have mentioned.

Why do you consider Cherryh "too young" and then mention Haldeman
given than Cherryh is a couple years older?

They started publishing within a year or two of one another as well.

-David

Peter D. Tillman

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Jan 9, 2003, 10:58:19 PM1/9/03
to
In article <8pqr1v06s613jjt0l...@4ax.com>,
David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:

Er, don't forget, there's "good Ursula" and "bad Ursula"...

Having said that, I hasten to add that I fully agree with granting her a
Grand Master. When she's on target, Le Guin is formidable. And a major
influence in (& outside) the genre. And just about the only
literarily-respectable SF writer who's secure enough to be proud of
being known as a *science-fiction* writer.

But it is intriguing to consider a N&P joint-Grandmaster -- some of
their collaborations are just about as good as SF gets. Surely SFWA
shouldn't shrink from a two-headed Grand Master...

Now, back to Bun-Bun -- Riff's wooden-stake Gatling-gun for dealing with
the vampire crisis was... impressive (c. 5/99). If not completely
perfected. Let me check my notes...

Ah. More like Jan-Feb: http://www.sluggy.com/

Worship the comic! Do we have awards for this sort of thing?

Cheers -- Pete Tillman

--
"Turn around and smile, fat-boy. You're on candid gun-scope."
-- Bun-Bun to Santa

Peter D. Tillman

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Jan 10, 2003, 12:04:10 AM1/10/03
to
In article <tillman-58AEBB...@news.fu-berlin.de>,

"Peter D. Tillman" [ie me] <til...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote:


> Now, back to Bun-Bun -- Riff's wooden-stake Gatling-gun for dealing with
> the vampire crisis was... impressive (c. 5/99). If not completely
> perfected. Let me check my notes...
>
> Ah. More like Jan-Feb: http://www.sluggy.com/
>
> Worship the comic! Do we have awards for this sort of thing?
>

Heh. Now up to Bun-Bun's recovery from Santa's smart-bomb attack:

http://www.sluggy.com/w/990614.html

The scene: Bun-Bun has a telemarketer and her kids tied up and hanging
over a piranha-tank.

TM Mom: Look, I don't know who you are, or how you managed to get that
tank into my living room...

Bun-Bun: The water tank was no problem. Finding the Rio Sao piranhas
was tough.
.
.
.

Kid (still suspended over piranha tank): Mr. Fuzbutt is cool!

I love this stuff.

Cheers -- Pete Tillman, new Sluggy fanboy.

--
Kid (earlier): This rabbit is boring. Can we trade it for a ferret?

Mike Schilling

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Jan 10, 2003, 1:06:01 AM1/10/03
to
"Peter D. Tillman" <til...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote in message
news:tillman-58AEBB...@news.fu-berlin.de...

> In article <8pqr1v06s613jjt0l...@4ax.com>,
> David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
> > kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote:
> >
> .
> > >
> > > But there should be a GM award for the hivemind "Jerry Pournelle &
> > >Larry Niven". Neither one *quite* deserves it solo, though Larry's
> > >closer, and IMO both are more deserving than Le Guin, who wrote maybe 6
> > >good books more than 25 years ago and lots of crud since. Voting her a
> > >GM is like voting Spider Robinson a GM. It's a mockery.
> > >
> >
> > Huh? Le Guin has more talent in her little finger than either
> > Pournelle or Niven have in their entire bodies.
> >
>
> Er, don't forget, there's "good Ursula" and "bad Ursula"...

"Bad Ursula" is when she lets her politics overwhelm her story-telling. By
that criterion there has never been any "good Pournelle", and not much "good
Niven and Pournelle".


Nicholas Whyte

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Jan 10, 2003, 10:20:40 AM1/10/03
to
Richard Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<vV6T9.1338$BR6.41...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>...

> On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:00:04 GMT, steve miller
> <che...@starswarmnews.com> wrote:
>
> >On 8 Jan 2003 18:18:08 GMT, na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
> >>not just Mike.)
> >>- Tony
> >
> >Welll ... I'm not so sure that Anne McCaffrey should be discounted, if
> >one wants to talk about influence on the field;
>
> I can only reiterate that I disagree.

If "The Quantum Rose" can win a Nebula then McCaffrey is a perfectly
conceivable Grand Master!

> > but certainly Robert
> >Silverberg has got to be near the top of the list, and I 'd guess
> >Harlan Ellison would have a shot. I don't think longevity by itself
> >should be the crowning criteria (as some suggest); I could see
> >reasonable argument made for Russ, or Delany.
>

> If people are really worried about "liberal bias" in selection of
> Grand Masters, the obvious choice is Gene Wolfe. Other than he, the
> only serious potential GM who probably isn't somewhat to the left
> might be Silverberg (I don't know much about his politics, actually).
> Or Niven, I suppose, but I don't think he sustained excellence for
> long enough to be a GM.

Looking at the candidates, I submit that Silverberg and Ellison are
the two obvious next candidates, and that Ellison probably has the
edge due to being a year older.

Nicholas

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Jan 10, 2003, 12:20:30 PM1/10/03
to
On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:26:35 -0700, Brandon Ray <pub...@avalon.net>
wrote:

>It's a true shame that the people you mention (along with some others) don't
>qualify. Does anyone know why GM's have to be still living?

So they can enjoy receiving the award.

In at least one case, in fact, a still-living candidate was rejected
because she was no longer capable of understanding or appreciating
what was happening.

This isn't a Hall of Fame. The idea is for the _recipient_ to have
the pleasure of knowing he or she is being honored by his or her
peers, his or her mastery of the field acknowledged.

Also, since it's limited to one a year (formerly six per decade), in
order to keep its prestige up, it seems a bit tacky to pass over the
living in favor of the dead -- "We're sorry, Mr. van Vogt, but we
really thought it was time to add H.G. Wells to the list, so you'll
just have to hang on another year..."

--

The Misenchanted Page: http://www.sff.net/people/LWE/ Last update 11/18/02
My latest novel is ITHANALIN'S RESTORATION, published by Tor.

Randy Money

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 1:05:22 PM1/10/03
to
Jon Meltzer wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 19:00:04 GMT, steve miller
> <che...@starswarmnews.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On 8 Jan 2003 18:18:08 GMT, na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance)
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
>>>not just Mike.)
>>>- Tony
>>
>>Welll ... I'm not so sure that Anne McCaffrey should be discounted, if
>>one wants to talk about influence on the field; but certainly Robert

>>Silverberg has got to be near the top of the list, and I 'd guess
>>Harlan Ellison would have a shot. I don't think longevity by itself
>>should be the crowning criteria (as some suggest); I could see
>>reasonable argument made for Russ, or Delany. I also suggest a
>>longshot -- Peter Beagle.
>
>
> A _very_ long shot. Not a large body of work.

No, but pretty good quality across that body. Interesting thought, Steve.

Randy M.

A.C.

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 5:25:06 PM1/10/03
to
na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) wrote in message news:<avhq10$n0k$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...

> Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
> not just Mike.)

You know, I was just thinking, what are the qualifications necessary?
I had assumed you had to be American, then roused myself out of my
stupor to notice the brits. That being said, how about Stanislaw Lem?

And what about Kurt Vonnegut? Or would his views on the SF field
preclude him from accepting it?

Karl M Syring

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 5:59:12 PM1/10/03
to
A.C. wrote on 10 Jan 2003 14:25:06 -0800:
> na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) wrote in message news:<avhq10$n0k$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
>
>> Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
>> not just Mike.)
>
> You know, I was just thinking, what are the qualifications necessary?
> I had assumed you had to be American, then roused myself out of my
> stupor to notice the brits. That being said, how about Stanislaw Lem?

Given old animosities, I would exclude Lem.

Karl M. Syring

Mike Schilling

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 6:21:08 PM1/10/03
to

"A.C." <nomadi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a4bef640.03011...@posting.google.com...

> na...@math.ohio-state.edu (Anthony Nance) wrote in message
news:<avhq10$n0k$1...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>...
>
> > Sooooo.....who could/should be the next one? (Directed to everybody,
> > not just Mike.)
>
> You know, I was just thinking, what are the qualifications necessary?
> I had assumed you had to be American, then roused myself out of my
> stupor to notice the brits. That being said, how about Stanislaw Lem?
>
> And what about Kurt Vonnegut? Or would his views on the SF field
> preclude him from accepting it?

Does he deserve it? His first six novels (through _Slaughterhouse Five_)
were brilliant, but he's done little or nothing worthwhile since.


Tyson Patterson

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 7:33:56 PM1/10/03
to

"Richard Horton" <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:f4qT9.1612$gk5.32...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...

> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 00:04:41 GMT, "A.C."
> <nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"Tyson Patterson" <cptd...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:FSnT9.120092$Hs2.11...@kent.svc.tds.net...
> >
> >> Robert Silverberg and C. J. Cherryh would be my choices for the next 2.
> >> After that, maybe Niven. In the "too young but should get there if
they
> >> keep writing good" category, I would put Bear, Bujold, and maybe
Willis.
> >
> >William Gibson.
>
> Cherryh is an interesting thought. She should be considered
> eventually -- still a bit young, though.
>
> Joe Haldeman is a name I should have mentioned.
>

I didn't put Cherryh in my "too young" (at 60 :) category because I feel she
already has a large enough measure of not just good but great works. Of
course, there will probably be others chosen before her because of age
consideration.

Tyson Patterson


Alan Gore

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 8:35:10 PM1/10/03
to
Brandon Ray <pub...@avalon.net> wrote:

>I'm trying to think of an example, and I'm comin' up blank.

In my opinion, his Good Ones were the collaborations "Inferno" and
"Lucifer's Hammer".

ag...@qwest.net | "Giving money and power to the government
Alan Gore | is like giving whiskey and car keys
Software For PC's, Inc. | to teenaged boys" - P. J. O'Rourke
http://www.alangore.com

Andrew Wheeler

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 8:36:24 PM1/10/03
to
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
> On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 19:26:35 -0700, Brandon Ray <pub...@avalon.net>
> wrote:
>
> >It's a true shame that the people you mention (along with some others)
> >don't qualify. Does anyone know why GM's have to be still living?
>
> So they can enjoy receiving the award.
>
> In at least one case, in fact, a still-living candidate was rejected
> because she was no longer capable of understanding or appreciating
> what was happening.

So, he asked shamelessly and leadingly, would this have been about five
or six years ago?

--
Andrew Wheeler
Nosy Parker who knows it's none of his business, really

Harry Erwin

unread,
Jan 11, 2003, 7:31:12 AM1/11/03
to
Brandon Ray <pub...@avalon.net> wrote:

You have to have been involved in getting some of those 'old masters'
back in print to realize how bad some of their stories are...

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes

unread,
Jan 11, 2003, 9:25:08 AM1/11/03
to
Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:33:18 GMT, David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com>:

Then perhaps they should have awarded Le Guin's little finger. Pity
she seems to have chopped that finger off 25 years ago...

I know, tastes vary. Whatever you find most awful and tedious in the
world, consider that how I feel about Le Guin's later works.

Peter D. Tillman

unread,
Jan 11, 2003, 11:23:08 AM1/11/03
to
In article <slrnb20a9g.1...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>,

kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote:

> Thu, 09 Jan 2003 21:33:18 GMT, David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com>:
> > kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote:

> >> But there should be a GM award for the hivemind "Jerry Pournelle &
> >>Larry Niven". Neither one *quite* deserves it solo, though Larry's
> >>closer, and IMO both are more deserving than Le Guin, who wrote maybe 6
> >>good books more than 25 years ago and lots of crud since. Voting her a
> >>GM is like voting Spider Robinson a GM. It's a mockery.

> > Huh? Le Guin has more talent in her little finger than either
> > Pournelle or Niven have in their entire bodies.
>
> Then perhaps they should have awarded Le Guin's little finger. Pity
> she seems to have chopped that finger off 25 years ago...
>
> I know, tastes vary. Whatever you find most awful and tedious in the
> world, consider that how I feel about Le Guin's later works.

Huh. Have you read "Buffalo Gals..."? Or "Old Music & the Slave Woman"?
Brilliant stories ... as good as anything she's written, ever.
Seriously, have a look. "Buffalo Gals" first. What an amazing story.
Probably the best talking-animal story since Kipling. Heck, maybe
better...

Cheers -- Pete Tillman
Book Reviews: http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/reviewer.html#tillman
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/A3GHSD9VY8XS4Q/
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/iplus/nonfiction/index.htm#reviews
http://www.sfsite.com/revwho.htm
"Old Music": http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/ukl.htm

Brandon Ray

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Jan 11, 2003, 1:11:49 PM1/11/03
to

Harry Erwin wrote:

Oh, I know some of them are pretty bad. OTOH, Pournelle's stand alones are pretty
wretched, as well.

Lois Tilton

unread,
Jan 11, 2003, 8:01:26 PM1/11/03
to
.On Wed, 08 Jan 2003 15:15:40 -0600, Louann Miller
<loua...@yahoo.net> wrote:

>This isn't the same as the Grand Master Hugo that gets given out from
>time to time, is it? Because I had the vague impression there was one
>of those too.


THere is a Grand Master award given by the World Fantasy Association.

--
LT

Richard Horton

unread,
Jan 11, 2003, 11:59:49 PM1/11/03
to

Google tells me that David Bilek wonders why I say Cherryh is too
young but then mention Haldeman. Very poor wording on my part. I
really meant to say that Haldeman should be considered as a potential
GM, but that he too was too young.

Lawrence Watt-Evans

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 2:35:40 AM1/13/03
to
On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:36:24 GMT, Andrew Wheeler
<acwh...@optonline.com> wrote:

>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>
>> In at least one case, in fact, a still-living candidate was rejected
>> because she was no longer capable of understanding or appreciating
>> what was happening.
>
>So, he asked shamelessly and leadingly, would this have been about five
>or six years ago?

No. Considerably longer.

Mike Schilling

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 10:09:57 AM1/13/03
to

"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <lawr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:g%tU9.7322$Dq.7...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

> On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:36:24 GMT, Andrew Wheeler
> <acwh...@optonline.com> wrote:
>
> >Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> >>
> >> In at least one case, in fact, a still-living candidate was rejected
> >> because she was no longer capable of understanding or appreciating
> >> what was happening.
> >
> >So, he asked shamelessly and leadingly, would this have been about five
> >or six years ago?
>
> No. Considerably longer.
>

And did this involve the great House of Ormstein, hereditary kings of
Bohemia?

(Stop being coy, guys, either name names or drop it.)


Randy Money

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 1:08:54 PM1/13/03
to
Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 01:36:24 GMT, Andrew Wheeler
> <acwh...@optonline.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>>
>>>In at least one case, in fact, a still-living candidate was rejected
>>>because she was no longer capable of understanding or appreciating
>>>what was happening.
>>
>>So, he asked shamelessly and leadingly, would this have been about five
>>or six years ago?
>
>
> No. Considerably longer.

Possibly 18 to 20 or so years ago?

Randy M.

Fire3Sky

unread,
Jan 10, 2003, 4:13:17 PM1/10/03
to
>Hey, another thought -- is there an "Author Emeritus" this year? (Is
>that program even still active?)

>After the last fiasco?


What happened?

Fire3Sky

Htn963

unread,
Jan 9, 2003, 3:58:44 PM1/9/03
to
"Mike Schilling" wrote:

>Pournelle is the
>father of Military-SF, and as such has a lot to answer for.

You forget Heinlein, but indeed they shall pay for this literary crime.
And so shall Jim Baen.

--
Ht

|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|

Pete McCutchen

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 2:22:01 PM1/13/03
to
On Thu, 09 Jan 2003 07:41:40 -0500, Jon Meltzer
<jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote:

>>
>>Hey, another thought -- is there an "Author Emeritus" this year? (Is
>>that program even still active?)
>
>After the last fiasco?

Details?
--

Pete McCutchen

Pete McCutchen

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 2:22:02 PM1/13/03
to
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 06:06:01 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
<mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> > Huh? Le Guin has more talent in her little finger than either
>> > Pournelle or Niven have in their entire bodies.
>> >
>>
>> Er, don't forget, there's "good Ursula" and "bad Ursula"...
>
>"Bad Ursula" is when she lets her politics overwhelm her story-telling. By
>that criterion there has never been any "good Pournelle", and not much "good
>Niven and Pournelle".

_King David's Spaceship_ and the earlier Falkenberg stuff. For Niven
& Pournelle, _The Mote In God's Eye_ and _Inferno_ certainly count.
--

Pete McCutchen

Randy Money

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 3:44:12 PM1/13/03
to
Jon Meltzer wrote:
> Almost 16, right? (And, yes, she did deserve it!)
>

If it's who I think, she sure did.

Randy M.

Mike Schilling

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 5:02:29 PM1/13/03
to

"Pete McCutchen" <p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:m5u22vk0qc2be2sn3...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 06:06:01 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
> <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Huh? Le Guin has more talent in her little finger than either
> >> > Pournelle or Niven have in their entire bodies.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Er, don't forget, there's "good Ursula" and "bad Ursula"...
> >
> >"Bad Ursula" is when she lets her politics overwhelm her story-telling.
By
> >that criterion there has never been any "good Pournelle", and not much
"good
> >Niven and Pournelle".
>
> _King David's Spaceship_ and the earlier Falkenberg stuff.
I Read _KDS_ a long time ago. My recollection is that there was ittle
story-telling to overwhlem, but I suppose YMMV.

> For Niven
> & Pournelle, _The Mote In God's Eye_ and _Inferno_ certainly count.

_Mote_, sure -- terrific book, if a bit overrated (it's not "the finest
novel of alien invasion" ever written). In _Inferno_ politics includes (at
least) the Vonnegut-bashing and the making of <spoiler> into a hero.


Brandon Ray

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 6:07:22 PM1/13/03
to

Mike Schilling wrote:

> _Mote_, sure -- terrific book, if a bit overrated (it's not "the finest
> novel of alien invasion" ever written). In _Inferno_ politics includes (at
> least) the Vonnegut-bashing and the making of <spoiler> into a hero.

Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with putting politics into a book -- it's
when the politics goes in at the expense of telling a good story that there's
a problem. In "Inferno", N&P told a good story. In their later
collaborations, the politics took over at the expense of the story.

Mike Schilling

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 6:01:35 PM1/13/03
to

"Brandon Ray" <pub...@avalon.net> wrote in message
news:3E2346A2...@avalon.net...

>
>
> Mike Schilling wrote:
>
> > _Mote_, sure -- terrific book, if a bit overrated (it's not "the finest
> > novel of alien invasion" ever written). In _Inferno_ politics includes
(at
> > least) the Vonnegut-bashing and the making of <spoiler> into a hero.
>
> Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with putting politics into a book -- it's
> when the politics goes in at the expense of telling a good story that
there's
> a problem. In "Inferno", N&P told a good story. In their later
> collaborations, the politics took over at the expense of the story.

Agreed and agreed. _Anmal Farm_ is one of my favorite books, and it's 100%
politics. I was giving examples of where _Inferno_ (IMHO) included things
that were purely for political affect and did nothing for the story.


Richard Horton

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 10:36:46 PM1/13/03
to

The Author Emeritus is supposed to go to an SF writer of distinction,
but not a plausible GM candidate, who has basically stopped writing.
Good previous choices include Emil Petaja and Nelson Bond.

One year, I don't remember which, they chose Robert Sheckley.
Sheckley is still a very active writer, and furthermore, while I don't
personally consider him a Grand Master, he is not an absurd candidate.
He's sure as heck miles ahead of Petaja and Bond!

Sheckley himself took it in good grace, apparently, but it was
perceived by many as an insult to him.

Pete McCutchen

unread,
Jan 13, 2003, 10:39:51 PM1/13/03
to

The Vonnegut-bashing is done purely for effect, but it's hardly
"political," unless you define that term very broadly. Making
<spoiler> into a hero didn't strike me as something done for political
effect -- they're not advocates of spoilerism, after all. It struck
me as a literary device, and a reasonably effective one, given the
apparent point of the book.
--

Pete McCutchen

Brandon Ray

unread,
Jan 14, 2003, 12:50:23 AM1/14/03
to

Pete McCutchen wrote:

> The Vonnegut-bashing is done purely for effect, but it's hardly
> "political," unless you define that term very broadly.

Which character represented Vonnegut, out of curiosity? I admit I haven't read
anything by him; all I really know is what people say about him.

> Making
> <spoiler> into a hero didn't strike me as something done for political
> effect -- they're not advocates of spoilerism, after all. It struck
> me as a literary device, and a reasonably effective one, given the
> apparent point of the book.
> --

Agreed.

JoatSimeon

unread,
Jan 14, 2003, 12:26:12 AM1/14/03
to
>From: Brandon Ray pub...@avalon.net

>Which character represented Vonnegut, out of curiosity?

-- the one in the red-hot iron tomb in Hell, with a sign flashing "So it Goes"
over it.

Karl M Syring

unread,
Jan 14, 2003, 12:52:51 AM1/14/03
to
Htn963 wrote on 09 Jan 2003 20:58:44 GMT:
> "Mike Schilling" wrote:
>
>>Pournelle is the
>>father of Military-SF, and as such has a lot to answer for.
>
> You forget Heinlein, but indeed they shall pay for this literary crime.
> And so shall Jim Baen.

But wait till I have my rail gun working!

Karl M. Syring

Harry Erwin

unread,
Jan 14, 2003, 5:59:09 AM1/14/03
to
Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:

The making of <spoiler> into a hero is theological, not political. Jerry
is serious about his Catholicism (much as I am serious about my
religious beliefs).

lewy

unread,
Jan 14, 2003, 6:00:33 AM1/14/03