“When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson

[Lynn McGuire]

“When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462

“Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
with this person at the con!""

“You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”

"No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"

Here, here !

Lynn

[-dsr-]

1. What you mean is "Hear, Hear!".

2. I stopped reading MZW when it became clear to me that, like Dante, he was
very fond of Tuckerizing his real life political opponents into torture scenes.

-dsr-

[Andrew McDowell]

I prefer my torture scenes - if any - off stage or heavily expurgated, as in E.E.Smith's account of Kinnison's torture on Boskone, but I have no objection to Tuckerising political opponents, if the author can keep the story going at the same time. Last time I heard Dante was still getting good reviews for the Inferno, and I also enjoyed Pournellle's version. His account of two politicians both sentenced as Evil Counsellors for diametrically opposed policies sticks in my mind - the politicians seemed to think that surely one of them must have been giving good advice, but I think the point was that in advocating the policies that they did, both were pushing a party line that they privately believed would not be in the best interests of their country.

I quite like Eichmil's entirely practical but suitably snooty response to the Delgonian Overlord who offered him the opportunity of participating personally in Kinnison's torture "I do not break bones for pleasure. Since you do, you may carry out the procedure as outlined...."

[Andrew McDowell]

On Sunday, February 5, 2023 at 2:52:08 PM UTC, -dsr- wrote:

The obvious equestion about X in hell is - has anybody sent Trump to hell? A web search finds https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-hell-dante/ - and apparently by a writer with a distinguished pedigree - "Ariel Dorfman is the author of Death and the Maiden. His new novel, The Suicide Museum, which deals with the death of Salvador Allende, will be published in 2023." I claim that Dorfman's enthusiasm to curse Trump has caused him to produce a less entertaining story than Pournelle or possibly Dante (since I have not read him I cannot comment first hand) - but YMMV

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Dorothy L. Sayers's translation of Dante is outstanding. Very clear,
readable, engaging.

[Andrew McDowell]

Thanks - it has at least gone on to my "to buy" list, although that list is adding more items than are being removed from ti.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

In article <3fdfb2f3-1ea8-4ce6...@googlegroups.com>,

(Hal Heydt)
Dorothy was particularly fond of the Sayers translation. I'd
have to check the bookshelves, but she also used to read a facing
page translation when she wanted to read it in the original
Italian.

[Scott Lurndal]

I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
life.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
> I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
> give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
> mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
> readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
> from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
> life.

The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
description of PTSD long before the term was coined.

[Andrew McDowell]

Privilege appears to be universal - one recent manifestation being those people who can and do proclaim not only that they are associated with progressive causes, but that their parents and grandparents were also associated with progressive causes. As far as I can remember, Lord Peter Wimsey, Albert Campion, and Sherlock Holmes were always excellent at working well with their social inferiors. (I speak of the books - what little I saw of the BBC Campion series did not impress me).

[Ross Presser]

Bullshit.

You encourage them to listen to their feelings of unsafety and choose,
on their own, not to attend. You don't ban anybody based on one person's
expression of feelings.

[The Horny Goat]

Well it's actually "hear, hear" which is supposedly what British
members of parliament say since clapping is banned in the House of
Commons.....

[Andrew McDowell]

I see that "Whose Body" is available at https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their non-racism and non-classism. As part of the story you see Wimsey realising that what started as an intellectual hobby - amateur detection - should be pursued with an eye to its social benefits rather than just his own amusement - he must continue to investigate suspects he has come to like. A notion of service to society and therefore (for Lord Wimsey) his social inferiors is likely to be incompatible with overt classism and racism - and classism and racism would also as make it more difficult to obtain information from those inferiors.

[James Nicoll]

In article <a25c1581-fc4c-4c94...@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:

big snip: for some reason, quoted material is getting more and
more unreadable here.

> and classism and racism would also as make it more difficult
> to obtain information from those inferiors.

A recurring detail in the old Avenger pulp is that Josh and Rosabel
Newton, being African American, are frequently dismissed as mere
servants, basically furniture, by the bad guys. This rarely works
out well for the crooks. Their boss, Richard Benson, of course
immediately spotted them as university graduates when he met them.


--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

[Robert Carnegie]

On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 17:31:35 UTC, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:14:33 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> > sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> > >
> > > I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
> > > give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
> > > mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
> > > readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
> > > from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
> > > life.
> > The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
> > description of PTSD long before the term was coined.

"Shell shock" was known, of course. Lord Peter's mother
is rather dismissive of it, I recall.

> I see that "Whose Body" is available at https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their non-racism and non-classism.

An early scene in it comes to mind where Lord Peter
makes fun of Bunter, his war comrade and personal
servant, abusing his power over Bunter - service was
poorly paid and precarious, and being servile is a
job skill.

> As part of the story you see Wimsey realising that what started as an intellectual hobby - amateur detection - should be pursued with an eye to its social benefits rather than just his own amusement - he must continue to investigate suspects he has come to like. A notion of service to society and therefore (for Lord Wimsey) his social inferiors is likely to be incompatible with overt classism and racism - and classism and racism would also as make it more difficult to obtain information from those inferiors.

Margery Allingham's "Albert Campion" is partly another
"take" on Lord Peter: he's an aristocratic younger son
but I think we are never told whose. Campion is his
common-people pseudonym but also his preferred identity,
as if Bruce Wayne chose to be, well, maybe Matches Malone
all the time - where Bruce poses as a criminal (I think "Matches"
passes as an arsonist for hire) and collects information from
the criminal community. Campion's choice of servant, Lugg, has
criminal history but probably is even more dependent,
economically, on his master's kindness. Not to mention
protection from the law of the land. Though in practice, they
are each entertainingly rude to the other. You could
say that Lugg wants his boss to be properly aristocratic like
Lord Peter, but Lugg's own effort when he wants to play the role
of Bunter or Jeeves leaves something to be desired.

I don't know if a story where Lord Peter recruits a
reformed criminal lockpicker to teach a female agent
the basic skills is a kind of tribute in reply to Campion
and Lugg. I'm pretty confident that an episode of Lugg
insisting on reading out the newspaper during the master's
morning bath follows from a description of Bunter doing that.

And there's usually several young men around who can
demonstrate to criminals the benefit of an expensive
education with a substantial athletic element when
Campion arranges for this to occur.

John Creasey's "The Toff" is yet another suave upper-class
detective with a personal manservant for a partner in
adventures, but Wikipedia relates him to "The Saint",
whom I understand as a self-made man and semi-ethical
criminal, and not to Wimsey and Bunter or even Holmes
and Watson. And... Creasey wrote faster. I expect it
to show.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:

> In article <a25c1581-fc4c-4c94...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>
> big snip: for some reason, quoted material is getting more and
> more unreadable here.
>
>> and classism and racism would also as make it more difficult
>> to obtain information from those inferiors.
>
> A recurring detail in the old Avenger pulp is that Josh and Rosabel
> Newton, being African American, are frequently dismissed as mere
> servants, basically furniture, by the bad guys. This rarely works
> out well for the crooks. Their boss, Richard Benson, of course
> immediately spotted them as university graduates when he met them.

I'd forgotten that! If I'm dredging up those old memories correctly,
they also did a great job of doing Steppin Fetchit impersonations when
needed for the situation.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:

> On Wednesday, 8 February 2023 at 17:31:35 UTC, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:14:33 AM UTC, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>> > sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>> > >
>> > > I've been reading through the Lord Peter Whimsey stories. They
>> > > give the reader a view of 1920's England (from the upper classes,
>> > > mainly). The overt and blatent racism and classism is offputting to modern
>> > > readers (at least this one). I still enjoy the mysteries and
>> > > from a amateur historian perspective, the depictions of daily
>> > > life.
>> > The earlier stories are also very interesting for their gripping
>> > description of PTSD long before the term was coined.
>
> "Shell shock" was known, of course. Lord Peter's mother
> is rather dismissive of it, I recall.
>
>> I see that "Whose Body" is available at
>> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/author/45867 and does indeed
>> contain references to what we would now call PTSD. I quite liked
>> it. The good guys, at worst, are guilty of flaunting their
>> non-racism and non-classism.
>
> An early scene in it comes to mind where Lord Peter
> makes fun of Bunter, his war comrade and personal
> servant, abusing his power over Bunter - service was
> poorly paid and precarious, and being servile is a
> job skill.

My recollection may be faulty, so I need to reread (what a fun duty!),
but I recall that while Bunter was Lord Peter's manservant, he might
better be described as his caretaker in the early stories. The teasing
was less bullying a social inferior than good-natured teasing between
men with a very fluid power structure.

<snip>

> John Creasey's "The Toff" is yet another suave upper-class
> detective with a personal manservant for a partner in
> adventures, but Wikipedia relates him to "The Saint",
> whom I understand as a self-made man and semi-ethical
> criminal, and not to Wimsey and Bunter or even Holmes
> and Watson. And... Creasey wrote faster. I expect it
> to show.

I don't remember us ever really getting Simon Templar's background.
He's certainly wealthy, and he certainly is able to mix with the upper
classes, but he is a con man after all...

He has various accomplices who come and go over the years; there's one
whose name I don't recall at the moment from Chicago who is stupid to
the point of disability. Templar's tolerance for him is all too clearly
"tolerance".

[Kevrob]

Oh, yes, the idiot who slandered Carl Barks in:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Read_Donald_Duck

I've read he adjusted his views but I haven't found the evidence on the `net.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-08-07-bk-122-story.html

In the days of Solidarity he stood with the Polish people rather than the
Generals and their Soviet masters, so I'll give him that.

__
Kevin R

[Kevrob]

In the adaptation by DC Comics, the Newtons wore Phi Beta Kappa keys.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Justice-Inc-1975/Issue-2?id=171290&quality=hq#11

Jack Kirby art from issue 2 on.

https://www.comics.org/series/2220/

--
Kevin R

[Robert Carnegie]

Hoppy Uniatz. Now I look, there's also a valet in early
stories. <https://saint.fandom.com/wiki/Simon_Templar>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saint_(1997_film)>
describes a scene from his childhood, without explaining
any connection to the rest of the story, except that he
is at what I take to be a Roman Catholic orphanage, and
in this version, he goes on to use names of "saints" as
criminal aliases, with "Simon Templar" also being such
an alias. And a girl dies. The page says that in a draft
before the film was actually made, his later love interest is
murdered by a bad guy and Simon is very angry about that.
So maybe the point was meant to be that that early tragedy
formed his character to be an avenger of women But they
took the part out where he did that?

[Paul S Person]

I always took it that the early scene establishes the reason for his
behavior later in the film. That is, it was a traumatic event that
ruled his life from that point on.

Also, he had no name. The one the orphanage gave him was a made-up as
any of those he assumed later. In a sense, he has no self-identity.

And I found the early scenes quite relevant to the rest of the film.
But then, I don't have to have all the i's dotted and t's crossed to
figure something out.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

[Quadibloc]

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 3:51:05 AM UTC-7, Kevrob wrote:

> Oh, yes, the idiot who slandered Carl Barks in:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Read_Donald_Duck

It certainly is true that some Walt Disney cartoons involved
satire that empathized with the poor against the rich.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

It certainly _is_ true that the book contained a bunch of stupid
nonsense. And yet, it was wildly popular throughout Latin America.

But the reason is not hard to see.

Just as, given what the Ukrainians suffered under the Soviets,
I reject the lie that they are perverse and inclined to Nazism because
under the circumstances, they mistakenly took the Nazis for liberators...

so I must also apply this principle in the opposite direction.

Given what many Latin American countries suffered under right-wing
military juntas - some of them, like that of Augusto Pinochet, put in
place with U.S. help - it's small wonder that some people down there
mistakenly thought of the Communists as liberators.

John Savard

[Joe Pfeiffer]

And of course that movie was decades after anything written Leslie
Charteris, to it seems to me like it doesn't really count.

[Paul S Person]

It would surely have been based, to the extent it had anything to do
with what had gone before, on the TV show.

It is an echo of an adaptation.

I enjoy watching it, BTW, every time it comes up in rotation. I never
really "got" the TV show. Same for /The A-Team/; well, where else can
you see guys flying a tank?

[Robert Carnegie]

<https://saint.fandom.com/wiki/The_Saint_in_Films>
in fact starts in 1938. Not recorded there is a "TV movie"
of 2017, which user reviews on IMDB describe as a pilot
for a TV series revival.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saint_(radio_program)>
meanwhile overlooks the fan site's claim that "Radio Athlone",
the one in Ireland presumably, had a "Saint" show in 1940.

The Saint on the page sometime complains about
Leslie Charteris's writing, but it often is /not/
Leslie Charteris writing - I gather - when his name
is on the cover.

[Paul S Person]

That's nice.

My mom was a big fan of the TV series. She was ecstatic when Roger
Moore became James Bond.

And it gives me a chance to add /The Fugitive/ as a movie I enjoy
every time I see it based on a series I didn't much care for.

As opposed to /Mission: Impossible/, which produced a surprising
amount of nostalgia for a series that really let me down in its third
season at the start, but then degenerated into a common (very common)
technothriller. Well, the "thriller" part was missing, but the
"techno" was there and the intent was clear.

Which, of course, leads to the fourth Lisbeth Salander film, which
starts with a scene stolen from an earlier film and then becomes a
common technothriller (also not particularly thrilling) which changes
her backstory. But that's a reboot pretending to be a sequel, not a
film echoing a TV series.

[Hamish Laws]

On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 9:08:09 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z. Williamson
> https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
>
> “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> with this person at the con!""
>
> “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
>
> "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
>

Yeah, it's not like there's ever been any convention guests that have ever done anything wrong...

[WolfFan]

On Feb 10, 2023, Kevrob wrote
(in article<245fc356-d974-409f...@googlegroups.com>):

Warning: site has drive-by malware downloads (including a Flash and a fake
Chrome installer) (who still has Flash?) and porno popups (‘adult friend
finder’ and lots more.)

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 15 Feb 2023 at 07:01:35 GMT, "Hamish Laws" <hamis...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Indeed. It's the "nazi pub" story. You've got to kick the nazi's out
immediately even if they seem to be inoffensive when they first sit
down, otherwise your pub becomes a nazi pub. The pub is the con, in this
case. The nazi is the guest who makes people unsafe.

Blaming the messenger is such a shitty thing to do, and hallmark of a
con that has incompetent management.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
A mind stretched by an idea can never go back to its original dimensions.
- Conan Doyle

[WolfFan]

On Feb 15, 2023, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote
(in article <k53siu...@mid.individual.net>):

> On 15 Feb 2023 at 07:01:35 GMT, "Hamish Laws"<hamis...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 9:08:09 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z.
> > > Williamson
> > > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
> > >
> > > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> > > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> > > with this person at the con!""
> > >
> > > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
> > >
> > > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
> > Yeah, it's not like there's ever been any convention guests that have ever
> > done anything wrong...
>
> Indeed. It's the "nazi pub" story. You've got to kick the nazi's out
> immediately even if they seem to be inoffensive when they first sit
> down, otherwise your pub becomes a nazi pub. The pub is the con, in this
> case. The nazi is the guest who makes people unsafe.

How, exactly, is the guest making the idiot unsafe? The quote was that the
idiot _felt_ unsafe, not that the idiot _was_ unsafe. The solution to the
idiot’s problem was one of the following:

1. Don’t go to the con. If enough idiots don’t go to the con because of
the guest, con management will get the message.

2. Go to the con, but stay away from the guest. Unless the guest actively
stalks the idiot, they’ll be fine... and if the guest does that, THEN toss
him. And call the cops.

>
>
> Blaming the messenger is such a shitty thing to do, and hallmark of a
> con that has incompetent management.

Nah. Listening to idiots having the vapors is the hallmark of a con that has
incompetent management. Tossing the guest BEFORE s/he does anything is an act
of extremely shitty management.

And having one, or even a dozen, nazis in the pub doesn’t make it a nazi
pub. Having one, or a dozen nazis in the pub singing the Horst Wessel or
otherwise being obnoxious is grounds for heaving the lot out... or becoming a
nazi pub. They’ll lose the business of almost all non-nazis, so out go the
fascist scum. Unless they just sit quietly over in one corner, having a
drink.
>
>
> Cheers - Jaimie

[Robert Carnegie]

On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 18:08:35 UTC, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> <https://saint.fandom.com/wiki/The_Saint_in_Films>
> in fact starts in 1938. Not recorded there is a "TV movie"
> of 2017, which user reviews on IMDB describe as a pilot
> for a TV series revival.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saint_(radio_program)>
> meanwhile overlooks the fan site's claim that "Radio Athlone",
> the one in Ireland presumably, had a "Saint" show in 1940.

I mean, there's not much to say that this involves
Simon Templar and not simply a great misunderstanding.
Or, perhaps that's how it got onto Irish radio, someone
thought it was going to be lives of the saints?
If indeed it wasn't.

[Hamish Laws]

On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 1:30:48 AM UTC+11, WolfFan wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2023, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote
> (in article <k53siu...@mid.individual.net>):
> > On 15 Feb 2023 at 07:01:35 GMT, "Hamish Laws"<hamis...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 9:08:09 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z.
> > > > Williamson
> > > > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
> > > >
> > > > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> > > > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> > > > with this person at the con!""
> > > >
> > > > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
> > > >
> > > > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
> > > Yeah, it's not like there's ever been any convention guests that have ever
> > > done anything wrong...
> >
> > Indeed. It's the "nazi pub" story. You've got to kick the nazi's out
> > immediately even if they seem to be inoffensive when they first sit
> > down, otherwise your pub becomes a nazi pub. The pub is the con, in this
> > case. The nazi is the guest who makes people unsafe.
> How, exactly, is the guest making the idiot unsafe? The quote was that the
> idiot _felt_ unsafe, not that the idiot _was_ unsafe.

Dunno, maybe sexual harassment like Asimov and Ellison
maybe it's Vox Doy, a white supremacist, misogynist who called N. K. Jemisin, "an ignorant. half savage", and who says women shouldn't have the vote?
Maybe it was David Eddings who spend time in jail for abusing his adopted children
Maybe it's somebody who's called for violence against a minority

'An informal 2014 survey found that 13 percent of fans and professionals had been on the receiving end of “unwanted comments of a sexual nature” at conventions. And a horrifying eight percent said they had been “groped, assaulted, or raped at a comic convention.”'

The point is that there are options other than immediately
1) ban the guest based on a complaint
2) ban the complainant

the idea that the correct reaction to every complaint is to ban the complainant is as ludicrous as the idea that the correct response is to ban the guest in all cases.
Complaints need to be investigated

>The solution to the idiot’s problem was one of the following:
>
> 1. Don’t go to the con. If enough idiots don’t go to the con because of
> the guest, con management will get the message.

a) Don't you normally rant about that being cancel culture?
b) so people who were harassed by Asimov or groped by Ellison should have just stayed away until they died?

>
> 2. Go to the con, but stay away from the guest. Unless the guest actively
> stalks the idiot, they’ll be fine... and if the guest does that, THEN toss
> him. And call the cops.

Again, Asimov did it for decades.

> >
> >
> > Blaming the messenger is such a shitty thing to do, and hallmark of a
> > con that has incompetent management.
> Nah. Listening to idiots having the vapors is the hallmark of a con that has
> incompetent management.

Until you actually investigate you don't know whether it's an idiot with the vapors or a real issue

> Tossing the guest BEFORE s/he does anything is an act
> of extremely shitty management.

Yeah, it's not like it's possible that the guest has done things before that the complainant is aware of but the con management isn't

[WolfFan]

On Feb 17, 2023, Hamish Laws wrote
(in article<5565da9f-6c84-4dbd...@googlegroups.com>):

> On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 1:30:48 AM UTC+11, WolfFan wrote:
> > On Feb 15, 2023, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote
> > (in article <k53siu...@mid.individual.net>):
> > > On 15 Feb 2023 at 07:01:35 GMT, "Hamish Laws"<hamis...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Saturday, February 4, 2023 at 9:08:09 AM UTC+11, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > > > > “When You Should Ban Someone From Your Convention” by Michael Z.
> > > > > Williamson
> > > > > https://www.michaelzwilliamson.com/cms/index.php/22-writing/516-462
> > > > >
> > > > > “Here's the scenario. You're running an event, and on TWITter or
> > > > > Fecesbook, someone calls out a guest and states, "I wouldn't feel safe
> > > > > with this person at the con!""
> > > > >
> > > > > “You must immediately ban this person from the convention.”
> > > > >
> > > > > "No, not the guest. The person making the public scene.”"
> > > > Yeah, it's not like there's ever been any convention guests that have ever
> > > > done anything wrong...
> > >
> > > Indeed. It's the "nazi pub" story. You've got to kick the nazi's out
> > > immediately even if they seem to be inoffensive when they first sit
> > > down, otherwise your pub becomes a nazi pub. The pub is the con, in this
> > > case. The nazi is the guest who makes people unsafe.
> > How, exactly, is the guest making the idiot unsafe? The quote was that the
> > idiot _felt_ unsafe, not that the idiot _was_ unsafe.
>
> Dunno, maybe sexual harassment like Asimov and Ellison

Heave their asses out the instant they go touchy-feely.

>
> maybe it's Vox Doy, a white supremacist, misogynist who called N. K. Jemisin,
> "an ignorant. half savage", and who says women shouldn't have the vote?

If he says this at the con, heave his ass out.

>
> Maybe it was David Eddings who spend time in jail for abusing his adopted
> children

Was it at a con? If at a con, heave his ass out. If not... not the con’s
business.

>
> Maybe it's somebody who's called for violence against a minority

If at a con, heave him out. If not, don’t.

>
>
> 'An informal 2014 survey found that 13 percent of fans and professionals had
> been on the receiving end of “unwanted comments of a sexual nature” at
> conventions. And a horrifying eight percent said they had been “groped,
> assaulted, or raped at a comic convention.”'

There’s a wide spectrum from ‘groped’ to ‘assaulted’ to
‘raped’, and for groped, heave his ass out, for the other two, have
security (if the con has it, or hotel security if not) sit on him until the
cops arrive and send his ass out in handcuffs.

>
>
> The point is that there are options other than immediately
> 1) ban the guest based on a complaint
> 2) ban the complainant

I wouldn’t have done either. The idiot was proposing to bank the guest
before the guest had done anything to the idiot. If the idiot feels that
strongly, stay away.

>
>
> the idea that the correct reaction to every complaint is to ban the
> complainant is as ludicrous as the idea that the correct response is to ban
> the guest in all cases.
> Complaints need to be investigated
>
> > The solution to the idiot’s problem was one of the following:
> >
> > 1. Don’t go to the con. If enough idiots don’t go to the con because of
> > the guest, con management will get the message.
>
> a) Don't you normally rant about that being cancel culture?

[citation needed]

>
> b) so people who were harassed by Asimov or groped by Ellison should have
> just stayed away until they died?

Nope. Asimov and Ellison should have been heaved out until they promised to
behave. And, if they broke their promise and did it again one being let back
in, banned for life. I don’t give a shit who they are.

But... that’s for an actual offense, not one that exists only in the
imagination of an idiot.

>
> >
> > 2. Go to the con, but stay away from the guest. Unless the guest actively
> > stalks the idiot, they’ll be fine... and if the guest does that, THEN toss
> > him. And call the cops.
>
> Again, Asimov did it for decades.

He should have been tossed.

>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > Blaming the messenger is such a shitty thing to do, and hallmark of a
> > > con that has incompetent management.
> > Nah. Listening to idiots having the vapors is the hallmark of a con that has
> > incompetent management.
>
> Until you actually investigate you don't know whether it's an idiot with the
> vapors or a real issue

I bloody know it’s vapors as THE DAMN CON HASN’T HAPPENED YET AND THERE
LITERALLY COULD NOT HAVE BEEN AN OFFENSE YET.

>
>
> > Tossing the guest BEFORE s/he does anything is an act
> > of extremely shitty management.
>
> Yeah, it's not like it's possible that the guest has done things before that
> the complainant is aware of but the con management isn't

Cool. So inform the management of prior bad acts. Management can then look
and see. If there’s anything to it, warn the guest to be on best behavior
and keep an eye out. If the guest has been banned elsewhere for repeated bad
acts, _then_ consider heaving him. If there isn’t anything, or if bad acts
weren’t repeated, tell the idiot that no action will be taken.

[The Horny Goat]

On Wed, 15 Feb 2023 09:30:40 -0500, WolfFan <akwo...@zoho.com>
wrote:

>And having one, or even a dozen, nazis in the pub doesn’t make it a nazi
>pub. Having one, or a dozen nazis in the pub singing the Horst Wessel or
>otherwise being obnoxious is grounds for heaving the lot out... or becoming a
>nazi pub. They’ll lose the business of almost all non-nazis, so out go the
>fascist scum. Unless they just sit quietly over in one corner, having a
>drink.

Given this is presumably an English speaking pub Tomorrow Belongs to
Me (which has been covered by several neo-Nazi bands - I found out the
hard way in Youtube one night....sigh) as it's both in English and in
Cabaret, Spitting Image and The Man in the High Castle. (The Spitting
Image version was done the week before a UK election - 1987? - in the
Thatcher era and is quite funny)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mjrT3N4hNo

PARTICULARLY if they end the song as they did in Cabaret + TMitHC
(e.g. with the entire audience doing the Hitler raised arm salute)

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 5:46:29 AM UTC-7, Hamish Laws wrote:

> The point is that there are options other than immediately
> 1) ban the guest based on a complaint
> 2) ban the complainant
>
> the idea that the correct reaction to every complaint is to ban the complainant is as ludicrous as the idea that the correct response is to ban the guest in all cases.
> Complaints need to be investigated
>

Congratulations for countering ideology with
common sense.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 6:53:23 AM UTC-7, WolfFan wrote:
> On Feb 17, 2023, Hamish Laws wrote
> (in article<5565da9f-6c84-4dbd...@googlegroups.com>):

> > maybe it's Vox Doy, a white supremacist, misogynist who called N. K. Jemisin,
> > "an ignorant. half savage", and who says women shouldn't have the vote?
>
> If he says this at the con, heave his ass out.
>
> > Maybe it was David Eddings who spend time in jail for abusing his adopted
> > children
>
> Was it at a con? If at a con, heave his ass out. If not... not the con’s
> business.
>
> > Maybe it's somebody who's called for violence against a minority
>
> If at a con, heave him out. If not, don’t.
>

If the management of a convention is at all worried about their
reputation, I don't think that is a reasonable standard to apply.

Is it really "cancel culture" to want to avoid the appearence of
condoning wrongdoing anywhere?

John Savard

[pete...@gmail.com]

TBTM was written in 1966 by two Jewish musicians, John Kander and
Fred Ebb, for the original Broadway musical version of 'Cabaret'. It is not
from the Nazi era. In the stage version, its sung by two waiters. The
movie version is far more chilling.

If you listen to the song without context, its inspiring and uplifting, with
just a hint of menace. From Wikipedia:

"Others seemed to embrace its lyrics at face value, without political
context; a Jewish youth group requested permission to use it in their
summer camp show. In 1973, concerned parents at a largely Jewish
school in New York State raised a petition against the song being
included in a school performance; school administrators determined
that it would go ahead as planned."

I know that for the camp use, it was flat out refused by the writers.

As others note, its been covered by a number of neo Nazi groups. The
only one I've heard was by the Swedish singer 'Saga', and is very good,
if you're not aware of her other work, or the history of the song. If you
do, its creepy AF.

pt

[Quadibloc]

On the other hand, Charlie Byrd quite innocently did an instrumental version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO7pRmg8cTk

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 10:21:25 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:

> On the other hand, Charlie Byrd quite innocently did an instrumental version:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO7pRmg8cTk

And speaking of being completely innocent of the context of this song...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJWqsF2HnOI

here is it apparently being used in the 2020 election campaign of Tsai
Ing-Wen. (Leader of the Democratic People's Party (DPP) in Taiwan
(Republic of China) and current President of that country.)

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 10:27:52 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:

> And speaking of being completely innocent of the context of this song...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJWqsF2HnOI
>
> here is it apparently being used in the 2020 election campaign of Tsai
> Ing-Wen. (Leader of the Democratic People's Party (DPP) in Taiwan
> (Republic of China) and current President of that country.)

The use is apparent, and not real; the music came from a recorded
performance by a musical group with no connection to Taiwan.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, February 27, 2023 at 10:21:25 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:

> On the other hand, Charlie Byrd quite innocently did an instrumental version:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO7pRmg8cTk

And here's one of many satirical versions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeaWZmr_VmE

John Savard

[WolfFan]

On Feb 27, 2023, Quadibloc wrote
(in article<f0400116-228a-49ab...@googlegroups.com>):

> On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 6:53:23 AM UTC-7, WolfFan wrote:
> > On Feb 17, 2023, Hamish Laws wrote
> > (in article<5565da9f-6c84-4dbd...@googlegroups.com>):
>
> > > maybe it's Vox Doy, a white supremacist, misogynist who called N. K.
> > > Jemisin,
> > > "an ignorant. half savage", and who says women shouldn't have the vote?
> >
> > If he says this at the con, heave his ass out.
> >
> > > Maybe it was David Eddings who spend time in jail for abusing his adopted
> > > children
> >
> > Was it at a con? If at a con, heave his ass out. If not... not the con’s
> > business.
> >
> > > Maybe it's somebody who's called for violence against a minority
> >
> > If at a con, heave him out. If not, don’t.
> If the management of a convention is at all worried about their
> reputation,

The reputation that they shouldn’t want to have is being the sort of twits
who overreact to one idiot’s complaint despite not having an actual event
to complain about.

> I don't think that is a reasonable standard to apply.

You don’t think.

>
>
> Is it really "cancel culture" to want to avoid the appearence of
> condoning wrongdoing anywhere?

It’s none of their damn business.
>
>
> John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 10:11:11 PM UTC-7, WolfFan wrote:
> On Feb 27, 2023, Quadibloc wrote

> > Is it really "cancel culture" to want to avoid the appearence of
> > condoning wrongdoing anywhere?
>
> It’s none of their damn business.
>

Harm to humans, wherever and whenever it occurs, is always
everyone's business.

John Savard

[WolfFan]

On Mar 1, 2023, Quadibloc wrote
(in article<bdaac29f-eb58-4e93...@googlegroups.com>):

Really? Without limit to time and space? Interesting. And idiotic.
>
>
> John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 7:34:46 PM UTC-7, WolfFan wrote:
> On Mar 1, 2023, Quadibloc wrote

> > Harm to humans, wherever and whenever it occurs, is always
> > everyone's business.

> Really? Without limit to time and space? Interesting. And idiotic.

You have indeed pointed out an ambiguity in my phrasing
which gave it a sense which was more expansive than I
intended.

I meant that it is, always will be, and always was, the case that
harm to humans anywhere is the business of everyone who is
contemporary with that harm.
So I was not saying we needed to concern ourselves with harm
to humans in ancient history or the distant future, nor was I
presupposing the existence of time travel.

Also, given the absence of FTL travel and First Contact as of yet,
by "wherever" I was still limiting myself to the planet Earth, and
so I did not need to note how the Prime Directive would limit our
response to harm to non-human rational beings who we don't
understand well enough yet to permit safe intervention.

John Savard

[Dimensional Traveler]

Its _QUADDIE_, what do you expect?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

[WolfFan]

On Mar 2, 2023, Quadibloc wrote
(in article<fe1b32cc-dfad-41c9...@googlegroups.com>):

> On Wednesday, March 1, 2023 at 7:34:46 PM UTC-7, WolfFan wrote:
> > On Mar 1, 2023, Quadibloc wrote
>
> > > Harm to humans, wherever and whenever it occurs, is always
> > > everyone's business.
>
> > Really? Without limit to time and space? Interesting. And idiotic.
>
> You have indeed pointed out an ambiguity in my phrasing
> which gave it a sense which was more expansive than I
> intended.

I doubt that.

>
>
> I meant that it is, always will be, and always was, the case that
> harm to humans anywhere is the business of everyone who is
> contemporary with that harm.

That’s just as stupid.

>
> So I was not saying we needed to concern ourselves with harm
> to humans in ancient history or the distant future, nor was I
> presupposing the existence of time travel.
>
> Also, given the absence of FTL travel and First Contact as of yet,
> by "wherever" I was still limiting myself to the planet Earth, and
> so I did not need to note how the Prime Directive would limit our
> response to harm to non-human rational beings who we don't
> understand well enough yet to permit safe intervention.
>
> John Savard

I think that Canada has to be condemned for allowing John Savard to roam
loose, given his attitude towards vatgirls. Canada can redeem itself by
sending Savardists to Baffin Island, so long as precautions are taken to
prevent poor innocent polar bears ingesting parts of said Savardists. We
don’t want to poison the poor things, after all.

[Kevrob]

Oops. Sorry. I visit that site using NoScript and AdBlock, so never see that stuff.

> >
> > Jack Kirby art from issue 2 on.
> >
> > https://www.comics.org/series/2220/

--
Kevin R