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Joseph Nebus
Nov 14, 2012, 5:35:47 PM11/14/12
to
It's a common way of getting around the considerable
difficulties in faster-than-light travel to tuck into science fiction
a mention of how some new model physics superceded Einsteinian
relativity, maybe also adding something better than quantum mechanics
(or at least stirring some quantum magic into things), so that the
pose of hard science fiction can be met while still sending folks off
to other star systems within reasonble story times.
But there aren't many observed or theoretical niches into which
such a new model could be fit, at least at present. Supersymmetry
theories have, according to the popular press, been getting pretty well
smashed up by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider, too:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20300100
Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
uploads never working out.
--
http://nebusresearch.wordpress.com/ Joseph Nebus
Current Entry: Reading the Comics, November 11, 2012 http://wp.me/p1RYhY-lH
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Johnston
Nov 14, 2012, 5:48:22 PM11/14/12
to
On 11/14/2012 3:35 PM, Joseph Nebus wrote:
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
The Golden Age. Although it does pretend that we do interstellar travel
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
despite that.
lal_truckee
Nov 14, 2012, 5:49:07 PM11/14/12
to
On 11/14/12 2:35 PM, Joseph Nebus wrote:
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
> could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
> light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
> up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
> uploads never working out.
>
I'm not sure what you're seeking. Are you including or excluding things like
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
> could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
> light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
> up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
> uploads never working out.
>
"Between the Strokes of Night" by Charles Sheffield
Andrew Plotkin
Nov 14, 2012, 5:49:15 PM11/14/12
to
Here, Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
> could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
> light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
> up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
> uploads never working out.
Greg Egan, Alistair Reynolds, and Karl Schroder have all done major
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
> could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
> light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
> up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
> uploads never working out.
non-FTL-universe books. (I believe Egan has never written any books
*with* FTL, is that right?) There may be other bits of SFnal magic-
subatomic-physics, however, depending on the novel.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Wayne Throop
Nov 14, 2012, 6:23:53 PM11/14/12
to
:: Joseph Nebus
:: Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of the
: I'm not sure what you're seeking. Are you including or excluding
Sure the Zones of Thought have FTL and uploads and everything
under the sun, but none of that appears in aDitS (possibly excluding
the cavorite (or whatever they called it)).
And then you have Learning the World, where such things possibly exist
(though maybe not FTL... not sure) in areas of "Fast Burn", but those
places are offstage, and don't persist.
:: Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of the
:: background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
:: basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
:: This could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up
:: faster-than- light travel, or non-gravitational
:: energy-producing-fusion being given up as a bad job, or, heck, let's
:: open it up to things like brain uploads never working out.
: lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com>
:: basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
:: This could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up
:: faster-than- light travel, or non-gravitational
:: energy-producing-fusion being given up as a bad job, or, heck, let's
:: open it up to things like brain uploads never working out.
: I'm not sure what you're seeking. Are you including or excluding
: things like "Between the Strokes of Night" by Charles Sheffield
Or, here's a peculiar case: A Deepness in the Sky.
Sure the Zones of Thought have FTL and uploads and everything
under the sun, but none of that appears in aDitS (possibly excluding
the cavorite (or whatever they called it)).
And then you have Learning the World, where such things possibly exist
(though maybe not FTL... not sure) in areas of "Fast Burn", but those
places are offstage, and don't persist.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Nov 14, 2012, 7:52:50 PM11/14/12
to
In article <k8175b$lio$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
DeCamp, of course, in the classic era.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Here, Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
>> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
>> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
>> could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
>> light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
>> up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
>> uploads never working out.
>
>Greg Egan, Alistair Reynolds, and Karl Schroder have all done major
>non-FTL-universe books. (I believe Egan has never written any books
>*with* FTL, is that right?) There may be other bits of SFnal magic-
>subatomic-physics, however, depending on the novel.
>
Niven did a whole series in an STL universe: the rammer/the-state stories.
>Here, Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
>> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
>> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
>> could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
>> light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
>> up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
>> uploads never working out.
>
>Greg Egan, Alistair Reynolds, and Karl Schroder have all done major
>non-FTL-universe books. (I believe Egan has never written any books
>*with* FTL, is that right?) There may be other bits of SFnal magic-
>subatomic-physics, however, depending on the novel.
>
DeCamp, of course, in the classic era.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Mike Dworetsky
Nov 15, 2012, 3:08:55 AM11/15/12
to
Joseph Nebus wrote:
> It's a common way of getting around the considerable
> difficulties in faster-than-light travel to tuck into science fiction
> a mention of how some new model physics superceded Einsteinian
> relativity, maybe also adding something better than quantum mechanics
> (or at least stirring some quantum magic into things), so that the
> pose of hard science fiction can be met while still sending folks off
> to other star systems within reasonble story times.
>
> But there aren't many observed or theoretical niches into which
> such a new model could be fit, at least at present. Supersymmetry
> theories have, according to the popular press, been getting pretty
> well smashed up by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider, too:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20300100
>
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
> This could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up
> faster-than- light travel, or non-gravitational
> energy-producing-fusion being given up as a bad job, or, heck, let's
> open it up to things like brain uploads never working out.
Ursula K LeGuin's Hainish novels do not have FTL travel, though they seem to
> It's a common way of getting around the considerable
> difficulties in faster-than-light travel to tuck into science fiction
> a mention of how some new model physics superceded Einsteinian
> relativity, maybe also adding something better than quantum mechanics
> (or at least stirring some quantum magic into things), so that the
> pose of hard science fiction can be met while still sending folks off
> to other star systems within reasonble story times.
>
> But there aren't many observed or theoretical niches into which
> such a new model could be fit, at least at present. Supersymmetry
> theories have, according to the popular press, been getting pretty
> well smashed up by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider, too:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20300100
>
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
> This could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up
> faster-than- light travel, or non-gravitational
> energy-producing-fusion being given up as a bad job, or, heck, let's
> open it up to things like brain uploads never working out.
have "nearly as fast as light" travel (NAFAL) and a form of instant FTL
communication (the ansible). For those who complain that SF is poorly
written (or *not literature*), her work is a clear counter-example.
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
James Nicoll
Nov 15, 2012, 10:10:39 AM11/15/12
to
In article <k6adnVy4kd6KPjnN...@bt.com>,
that way and the other (churten?) causes travellers to experience confusing,
allegorical stories.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Mike Dworetsky <plati...@pants.btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>Ursula K LeGuin's Hainish novels do not have FTL travel, though they seem to
>have "nearly as fast as light" travel (NAFAL) and a form of instant FTL
>communication (the ansible). For those who complain that SF is poorly
>written (or *not literature*), her work is a clear counter-example.
Actually, two forms of FTL exist. One kills living things transported
>
>Ursula K LeGuin's Hainish novels do not have FTL travel, though they seem to
>have "nearly as fast as light" travel (NAFAL) and a form of instant FTL
>communication (the ansible). For those who complain that SF is poorly
>written (or *not literature*), her work is a clear counter-example.
that way and the other (churten?) causes travellers to experience confusing,
allegorical stories.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
James Nicoll
Nov 15, 2012, 11:04:34 AM11/15/12
to
In article <k816c3$9js$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
novels, GATES OF EDEN, that just after one gets to the FTL level of tech,
all the easy discoveries run out and things plateau. One of the discoveries
that isn't in the easy to work out set is how to navigate in hyperspace:
either one tries blind jumps or one sends hyperspacial beacons out STL
(or an alien race turns on a HSB, which is why it is important tech stalls
at slightly more advanced than we are).
Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
>the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
>basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
Well, not important but it's an important detail in one of Stableford's
>
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
>the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
>basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
novels, GATES OF EDEN, that just after one gets to the FTL level of tech,
all the easy discoveries run out and things plateau. One of the discoveries
that isn't in the easy to work out set is how to navigate in hyperspace:
either one tries blind jumps or one sends hyperspacial beacons out STL
(or an alien race turns on a HSB, which is why it is important tech stalls
at slightly more advanced than we are).
JRStern
Nov 15, 2012, 11:25:48 AM11/15/12
to
On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:35:47 +0000 (UTC), nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph
Nebus) wrote:
>
> It's a common way of getting around the considerable
>difficulties in faster-than-light travel to tuck into science fiction
>a mention of how some new model physics superceded Einsteinian
>relativity, maybe also adding something better than quantum mechanics
>(or at least stirring some quantum magic into things), so that the
>pose of hard science fiction can be met while still sending folks off
>to other star systems within reasonble story times.
>
> But there aren't many observed or theoretical niches into which
>such a new model could be fit, at least at present. Supersymmetry
>theories have, according to the popular press, been getting pretty well
>smashed up by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider, too:
>
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20300100
>
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
>the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
>basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
>could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
>light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
>up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
>uploads never working out.
Sure, there were the universe/generation ship stories from the 1950s
Nebus) wrote:
>
> It's a common way of getting around the considerable
>difficulties in faster-than-light travel to tuck into science fiction
>a mention of how some new model physics superceded Einsteinian
>relativity, maybe also adding something better than quantum mechanics
>(or at least stirring some quantum magic into things), so that the
>pose of hard science fiction can be met while still sending folks off
>to other star systems within reasonble story times.
>
> But there aren't many observed or theoretical niches into which
>such a new model could be fit, at least at present. Supersymmetry
>theories have, according to the popular press, been getting pretty well
>smashed up by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider, too:
>
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20300100
>
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
>the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
>basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
>could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
>light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
>up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
>uploads never working out.
or so, that have ships centuries in transit between stars. Even that
pushes credulity a bit, but perhaps minimally.
It's mostly credible that we manage to populate much of the solar
system, comets, asteroids, moons, Mars, canister cities, with nothing
but current science, though it might take 1,000 years or more.
J.
Kip Williams
Nov 15, 2012, 1:01:16 PM11/15/12
to
James Nicoll wrote, On 11/15/12 10:10 AM:
> Actually, two forms of FTL exist. One kills living things transported
> that way and the other (churten?) causes travellers to experience confusing,
> allegorical stories.
THE ANDROMEDA TALES?
Kip W — I shoulda maybe said CASSIOPEIA?
rasfw
> Actually, two forms of FTL exist. One kills living things transported
> that way and the other (churten?) causes travellers to experience confusing,
> allegorical stories.
Kip W — I shoulda maybe said CASSIOPEIA?
rasfw
Howard Brazee
Nov 15, 2012, 1:18:28 PM11/15/12
to
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:04:34 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:
>Well, not important but it's an important detail in one of Stableford's
>novels, GATES OF EDEN, that just after one gets to the FTL level of tech,
>all the easy discoveries run out and things plateau. One of the discoveries
>that isn't in the easy to work out set is how to navigate in hyperspace:
>either one tries blind jumps or one sends hyperspacial beacons out STL
>(or an alien race turns on a HSB, which is why it is important tech stalls
>at slightly more advanced than we are).
At first glance, that makes sense - but at second glance, I wonder -
Nicoll) wrote:
>Well, not important but it's an important detail in one of Stableford's
>novels, GATES OF EDEN, that just after one gets to the FTL level of tech,
>all the easy discoveries run out and things plateau. One of the discoveries
>that isn't in the easy to work out set is how to navigate in hyperspace:
>either one tries blind jumps or one sends hyperspacial beacons out STL
>(or an alien race turns on a HSB, which is why it is important tech stalls
>at slightly more advanced than we are).
how does that stall out biological tech? Or nano technology? Or
information technology? Or chemistry?
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Butch Malahide
Nov 15, 2012, 3:05:23 PM11/15/12
to
On Nov 15, 10:25 am, JRStern <JRSt...@foobar.invalid> wrote:
works" which do not involve any kind of space travel. What about
_Flowers for Algernon_, _1984_, _Davy_, _Odd John_, _Frankenstein_,
_R.U.R._, _War with the Newts_, are they not important works of
science fiction? Perhaps Mr. Nebus is thinking of space fiction, a
subgenre of science fiction? Or perhaps the subsubgenre "stories of a
future interstellar civilization" such as Hamilton's "Interstellar
Patrol" series or the "Star Wars" movies?
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:35:47 +0000 (UTC), nebu...@-rpi-.edu (Joseph
> Nebus) wrote:
> > Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> >the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> >basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
> >could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
> >light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
> >up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
> >uploads never working out.
>
> Sure, there were the universe/generation ship stories from the 1950s
> or so, that have ships centuries in transit between stars. Even that
> pushes credulity a bit, but perhaps minimally.
For that matter, there must be hundreds of "important science fiction
> Nebus) wrote:
> > Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> >the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> >basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
> >could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
> >light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
> >up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
> >uploads never working out.
>
> Sure, there were the universe/generation ship stories from the 1950s
> or so, that have ships centuries in transit between stars. Even that
> pushes credulity a bit, but perhaps minimally.
works" which do not involve any kind of space travel. What about
_Flowers for Algernon_, _1984_, _Davy_, _Odd John_, _Frankenstein_,
_R.U.R._, _War with the Newts_, are they not important works of
science fiction? Perhaps Mr. Nebus is thinking of space fiction, a
subgenre of science fiction? Or perhaps the subsubgenre "stories of a
future interstellar civilization" such as Hamilton's "Interstellar
Patrol" series or the "Star Wars" movies?
Butch Malahide
Nov 15, 2012, 4:32:49 PM11/15/12
to
On Nov 15, 10:25 am, JRStern <JRSt...@foobar.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Sure, there were the universe/generation ship stories from the 1950s
> or so, that have ships centuries in transit between stars. Even that
> pushes credulity a bit, but perhaps minimally.
Actually those stories date back to the 1940s:
> or so, that have ships centuries in transit between stars. Even that
> pushes credulity a bit, but perhaps minimally.
Don Wilcox, "The Voyage that Lasted 600 Years", Nov. 1940.
Robert A. Heinlein, "Universe", May 1941.
Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
community linked only by light-speed communications?
Larry Headlund
Nov 15, 2012, 4:39:19 PM11/15/12
to
David DeLaney
Nov 15, 2012, 5:28:52 PM11/15/12
to
kollin & kollin's The Unincorporated planetary-opera setting doesn't have it
(yet), it seems, but ends with (SPOILER) one of the sides going off to
colonize the stars in their asteroids, aided by reliable methods of freezing
and later reviving people. And presumably their comms will be lightspeed-at-
best.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Joseph Nebus
Nov 15, 2012, 4:58:11 PM11/15/12
to
the category of ``stories in which (fundamental) physics is already
finished'' seems to blend into ``(theoretically) hard science fiction''
almost seamlessly, and I feel like there's something a little different
between the two.
I *think* that what's on my mind is that there's been an
assumption through most of science fiction that any given school of
scientific thought may be overturned by new experimental and new
theoretical developments --- else the idea that one gets to play with
the consequences of new science is weakened at least --- and that any
long-established assumption makes it interesting to look for cases
that take the opposite.
But I'm not sure how to distinguish a universe in which, oh,
all the attempts to beat Einstein (or Heisenberg, or whatever you
like) have failed from those in which the author just respects the
science as it is known, or where no particular (obvious) new
fundamental science is involved.
Butch Malahide
Nov 15, 2012, 8:22:01 PM11/15/12
to
On Nov 15, 3:55 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
setting, not interstellar. I was wondering about the idea of a society
with very long delays in communication. How would it feel to spend a
decade of your life working out a proof of Fermat's last theorem, and
then hear the news that it was solved 900 years ago on Rigel XVII?
Of course radio communication with other planets of the solar system
was a common theme in classic stf. In "A Baby on Neptune" by Clare
Winger Harris and Miles J. Breuer, M.D., the story is about the first
interplanetary voyages, but the background is 2-3 centuries of "fluent
communication with Mars, Venus, four of Jupiter's moons and one of
Saturn's" by radio. In "The Miracle of the Lily" also by Clare Winger
Harris (once again refuting the lie that there were no women in old-
time science fiction), there's a surprise at the end when [SPOILER]
the first television pictures arrive from Venus, after a period of
friendly communication by radio, and we finally find out what they
look like, and what their agricultural pests look like that we've been
advising them on how to eradicate.
> Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
> >community linked only by light-speed communications?
>
> Brace yourself: John C. Wright, his Golden Oecumene series.
Not familiar with that, but Wikipedia tells me it's in a solar system
> >Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
> >community linked only by light-speed communications?
>
> Brace yourself: John C. Wright, his Golden Oecumene series.
setting, not interstellar. I was wondering about the idea of a society
with very long delays in communication. How would it feel to spend a
decade of your life working out a proof of Fermat's last theorem, and
then hear the news that it was solved 900 years ago on Rigel XVII?
Of course radio communication with other planets of the solar system
was a common theme in classic stf. In "A Baby on Neptune" by Clare
Winger Harris and Miles J. Breuer, M.D., the story is about the first
interplanetary voyages, but the background is 2-3 centuries of "fluent
communication with Mars, Venus, four of Jupiter's moons and one of
Saturn's" by radio. In "The Miracle of the Lily" also by Clare Winger
Harris (once again refuting the lie that there were no women in old-
time science fiction), there's a surprise at the end when [SPOILER]
the first television pictures arrive from Venus, after a period of
friendly communication by radio, and we finally find out what they
look like, and what their agricultural pests look like that we've been
advising them on how to eradicate.
David Johnston
Nov 15, 2012, 8:33:09 PM11/15/12
to
On 11/15/2012 6:22 PM, Butch Malahide wrote:
> On Nov 15, 3:55 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>> Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
>>> community linked only by light-speed communications?
>>
>> Brace yourself: John C. Wright, his Golden Oecumene series.
>
> Not familiar with that, but Wikipedia tells me it's in a solar system
> setting, not interstellar.
While the action never leaves the solar system, there is interstellar
> On Nov 15, 3:55 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>> Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
>>> community linked only by light-speed communications?
>>
>> Brace yourself: John C. Wright, his Golden Oecumene series.
>
> Not familiar with that, but Wikipedia tells me it's in a solar system
> setting, not interstellar.
travel of the "let's detonate a hundred thousand tons of antimatter"
variety. So obviously it doesn't happen often.
David DeLaney
Nov 15, 2012, 10:58:05 PM11/15/12
to
Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Nov 15, 3:55 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>> Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
>> >community linked only by light-speed communications?
>>
>> Brace yourself: John C. Wright, his Golden Oecumene series.
>
>Not familiar with that, but Wikipedia tells me it's in a solar system
>setting, not interstellar.
Wikipedia be wrong then. To start with the main population IS in the solar
>On Nov 15, 3:55 pm, d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>> Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
>> >community linked only by light-speed communications?
>>
>> Brace yourself: John C. Wright, his Golden Oecumene series.
>
>Not familiar with that, but Wikipedia tells me it's in a solar system
>setting, not interstellar.
system... but there's been at least one interstellar expedition already,
that planted a colony. (Which apparently died out. Cue investigation by
protagonist on the run, and repeated wacky reveals.) There was communication
back from it before it died. Near the end of the trilogy, exactly what you're
looking for springs up, though I won't say why, and we get one viewpoint at
the end from the far future.
>Of course radio communication with other planets of the solar system
>was a common theme in classic stf. In "A Baby on Neptune" by Clare
>Winger Harris and Miles J. Breuer, M.D., the story is about the first
>interplanetary voyages, but the background is 2-3 centuries of "fluent
>communication with Mars, Venus, four of Jupiter's moons and one of
>Saturn's" by radio. In "The Miracle of the Lily" also by Clare Winger
>Harris (once again refuting the lie that there were no women in old-
>time science fiction), there's a surprise at the end when [SPOILER]
>the first television pictures arrive from Venus, after a period of
>friendly communication by radio, and we finally find out what they
>look like, and what their agricultural pests look like that we've been
>advising them on how to eradicate.
station and misadventures connected with it... and then there's Asimov's
short about the researchers trying to maintain communication with Pluto,
solved by one of their mothers.
Lynn McGuire
Nov 16, 2012, 1:08:36 AM11/16/12
to
On 11/14/2012 4:35 PM, Joseph Nebus wrote:
> It's a common way of getting around the considerable
> difficulties in faster-than-light travel to tuck into science fiction
> a mention of how some new model physics superceded Einsteinian
> relativity, maybe also adding something better than quantum mechanics
> (or at least stirring some quantum magic into things), so that the
> pose of hard science fiction can be met while still sending folks off
> to other star systems within reasonble story times.
>
> But there aren't many observed or theoretical niches into which
> such a new model could be fit, at least at present. Supersymmetry
> theories have, according to the popular press, been getting pretty well
> smashed up by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider, too:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20300100
>
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
> could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
> light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
> up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
> uploads never working out.
C. S. Lewis reputedly called interstellar distances
> It's a common way of getting around the considerable
> difficulties in faster-than-light travel to tuck into science fiction
> a mention of how some new model physics superceded Einsteinian
> relativity, maybe also adding something better than quantum mechanics
> (or at least stirring some quantum magic into things), so that the
> pose of hard science fiction can be met while still sending folks off
> to other star systems within reasonble story times.
>
> But there aren't many observed or theoretical niches into which
> such a new model could be fit, at least at present. Supersymmetry
> theories have, according to the popular press, been getting pretty well
> smashed up by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider, too:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20300100
>
>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
> could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
> light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
> up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
> uploads never working out.
God's quarantine system.
Lynn
Paul Colquhoun
Nov 16, 2012, 5:17:50 AM11/16/12
to
--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
Quadibloc
Nov 16, 2012, 5:22:51 AM11/16/12
to
On Nov 15, 1:05 pm, Butch Malahide <fred.gal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps Mr. Nebus is thinking of space fiction, a
> subgenre of science fiction?
Of course a story in which space travel does not play an important
> Perhaps Mr. Nebus is thinking of space fiction, a
> subgenre of science fiction?
role avoids the issue of whether or not FTL travel is possible.
It is an entirely valid and natural thing to note that since most
science-fiction stories that involve interstellar space travel assume
FTL, are there stories that either show how interstellar space travel
is achieved without FTL or how a very advanced technological
civilization manages without interstellar space travel.
And, indeed, without uploads, there were generation ship stories at
least.
John Savard
James Nicoll
Nov 16, 2012, 11:30:14 AM11/16/12
to
In article <sdcaa855bcb95u8un...@4ax.com>,
where information technology and anything it can facilitate is concerned.
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:04:34 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>Well, not important but it's an important detail in one of Stableford's
>>novels, GATES OF EDEN, that just after one gets to the FTL level of tech,
>>all the easy discoveries run out and things plateau. One of the discoveries
>>that isn't in the easy to work out set is how to navigate in hyperspace:
>>either one tries blind jumps or one sends hyperspacial beacons out STL
>>(or an alien race turns on a HSB, which is why it is important tech stalls
>>at slightly more advanced than we are).
>
>At first glance, that makes sense - but at second glance, I wonder -
>how does that stall out biological tech? Or nano technology? Or
>information technology? Or chemistry?
>
Because. Also, Stableford had a huge blind spot, in no way unique to him,
>On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:04:34 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>Well, not important but it's an important detail in one of Stableford's
>>novels, GATES OF EDEN, that just after one gets to the FTL level of tech,
>>all the easy discoveries run out and things plateau. One of the discoveries
>>that isn't in the easy to work out set is how to navigate in hyperspace:
>>either one tries blind jumps or one sends hyperspacial beacons out STL
>>(or an alien race turns on a HSB, which is why it is important tech stalls
>>at slightly more advanced than we are).
>
>At first glance, that makes sense - but at second glance, I wonder -
>how does that stall out biological tech? Or nano technology? Or
>information technology? Or chemistry?
>
where information technology and anything it can facilitate is concerned.
Robert Carnegie
Nov 16, 2012, 11:53:58 AM11/16/12
to
I'm trying to remember if _Accelerando_ eventually features FTL.
I think there's an episode where software copies of important
cast members are FTL-communicated to another star system.
Meanwhile their meat originals live and die off-stage, presumably
to say something about their loss of significance in the story
by this point, it being, eventually, the sort of story where
that's liable to happen.
_Schild's Ladder_ has speed of light limit in our physics, but
presents a means to create a universe with /different/ physics.
And, yeah, generation ships and coldsleep ships. And also stories
where FTL is discovered and there are missions to rescue the
people who are stuck on generation ships or in space iceboxes.
Consulting Neil R. Jones's _The Jameson Satellite_, at
<http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26906/26906-h/26906-h.htm>
I see that the immortal machine-men go on voyages of hundreds
of years (presumably our years) but are from "millions of light
years distant", so they are using FTL after all, "at an
inconceivable speed". Well... inconceivable is the /opposite/
of imaginary, which you were asking about... imaginary is what
you can think about, but not do; inconceivable is what you can't
think about. So, all of the other stories where authors brush
aside the speed of light limit or don't mention it at all, and
aren't thinking about it, must be using inconceivable drive, no
imaginary drive.
I think there's an episode where software copies of important
cast members are FTL-communicated to another star system.
Meanwhile their meat originals live and die off-stage, presumably
to say something about their loss of significance in the story
by this point, it being, eventually, the sort of story where
that's liable to happen.
_Schild's Ladder_ has speed of light limit in our physics, but
presents a means to create a universe with /different/ physics.
And, yeah, generation ships and coldsleep ships. And also stories
where FTL is discovered and there are missions to rescue the
people who are stuck on generation ships or in space iceboxes.
Consulting Neil R. Jones's _The Jameson Satellite_, at
<http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26906/26906-h/26906-h.htm>
I see that the immortal machine-men go on voyages of hundreds
of years (presumably our years) but are from "millions of light
years distant", so they are using FTL after all, "at an
inconceivable speed". Well... inconceivable is the /opposite/
of imaginary, which you were asking about... imaginary is what
you can think about, but not do; inconceivable is what you can't
think about. So, all of the other stories where authors brush
aside the speed of light limit or don't mention it at all, and
aren't thinking about it, must be using inconceivable drive, no
imaginary drive.
Howard Brazee
Nov 16, 2012, 3:21:45 PM11/16/12
to
On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:30:14 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:
>>At first glance, that makes sense - but at second glance, I wonder -
>>how does that stall out biological tech? Or nano technology? Or
>>information technology? Or chemistry?
>>
>Because. Also, Stableford had a huge blind spot, in no way unique to him,
>where information technology and anything it can facilitate is concerned.
Not only not unique to him - but maybe shared by everybody a couple of
Nicoll) wrote:
>>At first glance, that makes sense - but at second glance, I wonder -
>>how does that stall out biological tech? Or nano technology? Or
>>information technology? Or chemistry?
>>
>Because. Also, Stableford had a huge blind spot, in no way unique to him,
>where information technology and anything it can facilitate is concerned.
decades ago (how clear is our vision even now?).
James Nicoll
Nov 16, 2012, 3:48:07 PM11/16/12
to
In article <908da81oukt4va3iu...@4ax.com>,
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:30:14 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>>At first glance, that makes sense - but at second glance, I wonder -
>>>how does that stall out biological tech? Or nano technology? Or
>>>information technology? Or chemistry?
>>>
>>Because. Also, Stableford had a huge blind spot, in no way unique to him,
>>where information technology and anything it can facilitate is concerned.
>
>Not only not unique to him - but maybe shared by everybody a couple of
>decades ago (how clear is our vision even now?).
Ask me in 20 years.
>On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:30:14 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>>At first glance, that makes sense - but at second glance, I wonder -
>>>how does that stall out biological tech? Or nano technology? Or
>>>information technology? Or chemistry?
>>>
>>Because. Also, Stableford had a huge blind spot, in no way unique to him,
>>where information technology and anything it can facilitate is concerned.
>
>Not only not unique to him - but maybe shared by everybody a couple of
>decades ago (how clear is our vision even now?).
JRStern
Nov 16, 2012, 7:57:01 PM11/16/12
to
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 13:32:49 -0800 (PST), Butch Malahide
<fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Nov 15, 10:25�am, JRStern <JRSt...@foobar.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Sure, there were the universe/generation ship stories from the 1950s
>> or so, that have ships centuries in transit between stars. �Even that
>> pushes credulity a bit, but perhaps minimally.
>
>Actually those stories date back to the 1940s:
>
>Don Wilcox, "The Voyage that Lasted 600 Years", Nov. 1940.
>Robert A. Heinlein, "Universe", May 1941.
OK, "Universe" being the protype, if not the original by six months!
<fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Nov 15, 10:25�am, JRStern <JRSt...@foobar.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Sure, there were the universe/generation ship stories from the 1950s
>> or so, that have ships centuries in transit between stars. �Even that
>> pushes credulity a bit, but perhaps minimally.
>
>Actually those stories date back to the 1940s:
>
>Don Wilcox, "The Voyage that Lasted 600 Years", Nov. 1940.
>Robert A. Heinlein, "Universe", May 1941.
>Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
>community linked only by light-speed communications?
reference to FTL communications either, they just blew up stars to
travel on the light pressure.
For that matter Niven's "Outsiders" preferred to travel STL, although
they had an inertialess drive that got them up *to* light speed and
back very nicely. And if they didn't have FTL communications, they
could use other races to hyperdrive for them, I suppose.
Glen Cook's - um, what were they called, his trillions of cleansers in
"Star's End" - the centerward people, the "hungry bunnies", did not
have FTL communications but humans did via the "star fish". I guess
both had FTL drives.
J.
Greg Goss
Nov 18, 2012, 5:53:37 PM11/18/12
to
nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) wrote:
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
>the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
>basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
>could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
>light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
>up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
>uploads never working out.
Vinge's "Marooned in Real Time" has time stasis, but not FTL, together
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
>the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
>basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff? This
>could be from a lack of post-relativity theory opening up faster-than-
>light travel, or non-gravitational energy-producing-fusion being given
>up as a bad job, or, heck, let's open it up to things like brain
>uploads never working out.
with various advanced technologies. At the start of the novel, set 50
million years after the disappearance of most of humanity, we see one
of the main characters who has been exploring the galaxy. I think she
was several thousand real-time years old, and was re-learning how to
be human after returning to Earth after a few thousand years solo.
--
I used to own a mind like a steel trap.
Perhaps if I'd specified a brass one, it
wouldn't have rusted like this.
William December Starr
Nov 18, 2012, 7:30:46 PM11/18/12
to
In article <1fbebbd8-6e33-4538...@g14g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>,
going on all over the place in John C. Wright's _Count to a
Trillion_[1,2]. "Mostly" because there's a non-zero amount of
slower-than-light interstellar travel as well, but not very much
because it's expensive and slow.
-----------
*1: Though I'm not absolutely certain that any of the characters
in that book really _were_ human[3]. They _all_ seemed to be
Rational Actors.
*2: Which, by the way, is apparently Book 1 of N but you don't find
that out until you run out of pages. Grumble grumble grumble.
-- wds
Butch Malahide <fred....@gmail.com> said:
> Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
> community linked only by light-speed communications?
If I remember correctly that's what the humans find out is mostly
> Is there any stf in a "SETI-type" setting, i.e., an interstellar
> community linked only by light-speed communications?
going on all over the place in John C. Wright's _Count to a
Trillion_[1,2]. "Mostly" because there's a non-zero amount of
slower-than-light interstellar travel as well, but not very much
because it's expensive and slow.
-----------
*1: Though I'm not absolutely certain that any of the characters
in that book really _were_ human[3]. They _all_ seemed to be
Rational Actors.
*2: Which, by the way, is apparently Book 1 of N but you don't find
that out until you run out of pages. Grumble grumble grumble.
-- wds
jack tingle
Nov 23, 2012, 11:44:13 AM11/23/12
to
On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 5:35:48 PM UTC-5, Joseph Nebus wrote:
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
One example (ignoring 'important') is InterstellarNet: Origins by Edward M. Lerner <http://www.amazon.com/InterstellarNet-Origins-Edward-M-Lerner/dp/0981848745/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1353688023&sr=1-1&keywords=interstellar+communication>
> Are there important science fiction works in which it's part of
> the background that, at least for fundamental physics, we've got the
> basics pretty well figured out and there just isn't big new stuff?
Radio SETI works, and that's good enough. The title is godsawful, but the book is quite nice. Its success should serve as a cautionary tale to authors to not let their imagination (and especially their lack of it) lapse into laziness.
A little further afield, Poul Anderson's "Starfarers" and "Tau Zero" are more 'important', but a little less rigorous. They're STL interstellar travel tales.
Someone already mentioned LeGuin's 'Ecumene' and NAFAL drives.
One nice thing about this class of stories is the sense of scale they give you. There's a tendency in FTL stories to want the hero to pop over to the planet Mongo just to see if it's raining there. STL (or AFAL) sf makes you realize the times and distances involved a lot better.
Regards,
Jack Tingle
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