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The Weapon Shop

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Girish

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Dec 7, 2006, 2:18:15 AM12/7/06
to
A. E. van Vogt. The Weapon Shop. 1942

Continuing from the Science Fiction Hall of Fame.
Boy. Am I dazzled!

I don't know about you guys, but reading for pleasure as against
Reading For a Purpose was one of the habits that I had discarded when I
made the often difficult transition from childhood to adulthood. I had
felt then that Science Fiction stories are silly, unrealistic, far too
removed from the real world and will never help make you a Success In
Life. :-)

But this particular gem stuns, dazzles and humbles me.

The prose, the style, the sudden shifts in reality, the magic
realism(is that the correct term?)., the deeply humane concerns driving
this story forward, the way Vogt makes Fara the protagonist, and me the
reader go through the wringer, the intensity of the experiences, the
profound and complete shift in beliefs that Fara goes through, the way
the whole story starts with sympathy for the agrarian/medieval
viewpoint, and then proceeds to throughly and convincing point out the
short comings of this so called age of chivarly, the way that Vogt
replaces the medieval fantasy with his own brilliantly realized,
brilliantly imagined magical world of the Weapon Shop is an object
lesson.
This is fantasy of the highest order. And I I am not worthy. :-)

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

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Dec 7, 2006, 2:43:04 AM12/7/06
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In article <1165475895....@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,

Girish <girishb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> A. E. van Vogt. The Weapon Shop. 1942
>
>Continuing from the Science Fiction Hall of Fame.
>Boy. Am I dazzled!
>


You know he expanded (or "fixed-up") this into a novel, right?
_The Weapon Shops of Isher_, which was quite possibly his best book.

There was also a sequel: _The Weapon Makers_, which expands the
scope yet again. (Though I think _Shops_ is a better book, you
can't beat the ending of _Makers_);


Ted

Girish

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Dec 7, 2006, 3:52:15 AM12/7/06
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Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <1165475895....@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
> Girish <girishb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > A. E. van Vogt. The Weapon Shop. 1942
> >
> >Continuing from the Science Fiction Hall of Fame.
> >Boy. Am I dazzled!
> >
>
>
> You know he expanded (or "fixed-up") this into a novel, right?
> _The Weapon Shops of Isher_, which was quite possibly his best book.
>

Yes, I have been researching him today at work. :-)
And quite frankly, judging by this story, most of the criticism thrown
at him just baffles me. Were those critics reading the same author as I
was?

So in my immediate to purchase list, is
The Weapon Makers,
The Weapon Shops of Isher.
Maybe The Null A trilogy.
Anything else which is just as stong and/or better?

David Mitchell

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Dec 7, 2006, 4:46:41 AM12/7/06
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On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 00:52:15 -0800, Girish wrote:

> Yes, I have been researching him today at work. :-)
> And quite frankly, judging by this story, most of the criticism thrown
> at him just baffles me. Were those critics reading the same author as I
> was?
>
> So in my immediate to purchase list, is
> The Weapon Makers,
> The Weapon Shops of Isher.
> Maybe The Null A trilogy.
> Anything else which is just as stong and/or better?

Personally, I'd buy it all. Oh wait, I already have ;-)
He has his flaws, and an annoying tendency to re-tread his stories; but I
love his ideas.

--
=======================================================================
= David --- No, not that one.
= Mitchell ---
=======================================================================

David Given

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Dec 7, 2006, 6:48:47 AM12/7/06
to
Girish wrote:
[...]

> So in my immediate to purchase list, is
> The Weapon Makers,
> The Weapon Shops of Isher.
> Maybe The Null A trilogy.
> Anything else which is just as stong and/or better?

I have a soft spot for _The Empire of the Atom_ and _The Wizard of Linn_,
particularly for the rather refreshing attitude of the lead character --- he
just wants to be left alone and conduct his research, dammit, but he keeps
getting distracted by this tedious war thing that he has to run.

...

Incidentally, doing a quick Google, I find this book cover scan:

http://vanvogt.www4.mmedia.is/images/new_covers/PtathANDSilkie1975ScalaSF5.html

Am I wrong, or was that picture recycled for (or from) Isaac Asimov's _Space
Ranger_?

--
╭─┈David Given┈──McQ─╮ "There are two major products that come out of
│┈┈d...@cowlark.com┈┈┈┈│ Berkeley: LSD and Unix. We don't believe this to be
│┈(d...@tao-group.com)┈│ a coincidence." --- Jeremy S. Anderson
╰─┈www.cowlark.com┈──╯

William George Ferguson

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Dec 7, 2006, 11:11:37 AM12/7/06
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The Van Vogt books that (along with Weapon Shops and Null_A_) are
considered the definitive Van Vogt are "Slan" and "Voyage of the Space
Beagle". After reading the latter, you can marvel at the way he ripped off
the movie 'Alien', decades before 'Alien' was made.

--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

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Dec 7, 2006, 11:49:56 AM12/7/06
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In article <1165481535.3...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,

I think a lot of his short fiction works better in its original form,
though he was very clever in the way he was able to make novels out
of some unrelated pieces:

I just finished reading the NESFA Van Vogt story collection _Transfinite_,
which has some of his best stories, though by no means all of them.

In particular, it includes "The Monster" which may be my favorite VV story.
The rest are generally top-notch as well, and the book is well worth
having.

Although I like the individual stories better, _The War Against the Rull_
is a good bet as are _The Book of Ptath_ (aka _Two Hundred Million AD_) and
_Mission to the Stars_ (aka _The Mixed Men_).


Ted

Anthony Nance

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Dec 7, 2006, 4:11:17 PM12/7/06
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In article <1165481535.3...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>,
Girish <girishb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>>
>> You know he expanded (or "fixed-up") this into a novel, right?
>> _The Weapon Shops of Isher_, which was quite possibly his best book.
>>
>
>Yes, I have been researching him today at work. :-)
>And quite frankly, judging by this story, most of the criticism thrown
>at him just baffles me. Were those critics reading the same author as I
>was?

Unless the criticism you're talking about is specific to Isher,
I'd guess they really were reading the same author. He was
prolific and experimented often, and the results over the life
of his career were uneven.


>So in my immediate to purchase list, is
>The Weapon Makers,
>The Weapon Shops of Isher.
>Maybe The Null A trilogy.
>Anything else which is just as stong and/or better?

I'll second the suggestions of _The Voyage of the Space Beagle_
and _The War Against the Rull_.

Tony


Gene Ward Smith

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Dec 7, 2006, 4:38:45 PM12/7/06
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The War Against the Rull is boring. I'd delete that but definately keep
Space Beagel. Also, add Slan, The Book of Ptath, Mission to the Stars
and The Secret Galactics.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

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Dec 7, 2006, 5:15:43 PM12/7/06
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In article <1165527525.6...@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,

I recommended _Rull_, but I do own that the sum of its parts is
better: "Repitition", "The Rull", "Cooperate or Else" & "The Sound"
are probably better alone than combined, but still a good book.

Hal Clement:

Van Vogt frequently re-used stories and story ideas
alread published as parts of longer and more complex
ones, so it is a little hard to make a bibliography
of his work. Again, I don't blame him; he provides
interesting exercises for fledgling writers. Read
"The Rull" and "The Sound" together from this book
[_Transfinite_], and try to decide how you would
combine them; then if you can find copies -- I don't
think they are included in here -- read "Cooperate
or Else," and "The Second Solution." Finally,
again if you can find a copy, read the novel _The
War Against the Rull_.

Ted

Mike Schilling

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Dec 7, 2006, 11:26:15 PM12/7/06
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Girish wrote:

>> In article <1165475895....@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
>> Girish <girishb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> A. E. van Vogt. The Weapon Shop. 1942

...


> And quite frankly, judging by this story, most of the criticism thrown
> at him just baffles me. Were those critics reading the same author as
> I was?

This is his best story, after all. Van Vogt's talent was a wild one, and
often he was not at all in control of it, making his work very hit and miss.
(Note, by the way, that this story doesn't make any lofical sense. That
bothers some people more than others.)


Among his novels, I'd definitely recommend _The Weapon Shops of Isher_ and
_The World of Null-A_. Less so, _The Weapon Makers_ and _Players of Null-A_.
Not at all _Null-A 3_.


Endy9

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Dec 8, 2006, 4:45:06 AM12/8/06
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"Girish" <girishb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165481535.3...@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...


I believe that Damon Knight believed in climbing to fame by pushing others
down in the mud and standing on them. Unfortunately it seemed to work for
him. What mystifies me even more than people accepting Knight's criticisms
and declaring Van Vogt an incompetent writer (he's one of my favorite
storytellers) is that people are convinced that Knight writes great stories.
I've never been able to make it more than half way through anything I've
attempted by him. Perhaps it was just a case of jealousy on Knight's part.
(shrug)

My introduction to Van Vogt was a short story in an Isaac Asimov anthology.
It led me to read The Book of Ptath. A great everyman/superman story. Slan
is also excellent. Just finished an excellent complilation of his short
fiction titled Transfinite (The Essential A.E. Van Vogt).


--
Dennis/Endy
http://home.comcast.net/~endymion91/
~I was born to rock the boat. Some will sink but we will float.
Grab your coat. Let's get out of here.
You're my witness. I'm your Mutineer~ - Warren Zevon
--


Girish

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Dec 8, 2006, 5:27:01 AM12/8/06
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Endy9 wrote:
> I believe that Damon Knight believed in climbing to fame by pushing others
> down in the mud and standing on them. Unfortunately it seemed to work for
> him. What mystifies me even more than people accepting Knight's criticisms
> and declaring Van Vogt an incompetent writer (he's one of my favorite
> storytellers) is that people are convinced that Knight writes great stories

I think people have different ways of percieving the same thing. What
someone says of something probably tells more about the person doing
the talking than about the thing getting talked about. :-).

For example, I am quite unable to grok the obvious enjoyment many
people seem to have got from Sturgeon's story the "Microscopic God".
What exactly is the frame of mind that can allow one to enjoy such a
story? :-)

I don't think there is any reason to feel too sorry for Vogt - he was
no one's fool. See the following excerpt from an interview archieved at
http://vanvogt.www4.mmedia.is/jeff.htm

<excerpt>

How much value do you place on what the critics think of your work?

VV: Apparently, we shall have critics with us from now until the far
future. Let me say, to begin with, I don't mind fan critics at all. I
really don't care if a fan likes or dislikes my work, so long as he has
only a limited fan magazine market to peddle his ideas-in fact, I enjoy
reading what he has to say. However, when it comes to criticism in the
national circulation magazines, alas, I have lived long enough to know
that a hostile reviewer can do great damage to an author; and great
damage has been done to me. There are essentially two kinds of critics:
one represents a "new wave," and he has a yen to let the readership
know that anything written prior to the new thought lacks true
reality-which is what he represents. Most realities in fiction evolve
through an up curve and then a down curve in about ten years, after
which, unless the author can make a shift, the new "new wave" flows
over him. The other type of critic is a person, often resident in New
York, who can't seem to make a living at writing science fiction; but
he knows everybody, and they want to do something for him. As is often
the case, he is given the critic's column to write. If he would be
calm, and accept the manna from heaven for what it is, fine!, but no,
he's angry inside-at what, who knows? He quickly forgets that he's a
charity case and begins to act like God Almighty. Can anything be done
for him? Will this system ever change? No!

</excerpt>

Does it apply to Damon Knight, the critic? I do not know. All *I* know
is that the SFWA made Vogt one of their Grandmasters (an honor that all
of SFdom takes great pride in), but then the title has been re-titled
the Damon Knight award! :-) ;-)

Michael Stemper

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Dec 8, 2006, 8:51:43 AM12/8/06
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Do not go near _Null-A Three_. Better to gouge your eyes out with a
rusty spork than to read it.

>Anything else which is just as stong and/or better?

_Slan_

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Twenty-four hours in a day; twenty-four beers in a case. Coincidence?

norrin

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Dec 8, 2006, 11:11:47 AM12/8/06
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Girish wrote:
> Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > In article <1165475895....@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
> > Girish <girishb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > A. E. van Vogt. The Weapon Shop. 1942
> > >
> > >Continuing from the Science Fiction Hall of Fame.
> > >Boy. Am I dazzled!
> > >
> >
> >
> > You know he expanded (or "fixed-up") this into a novel, right?
> > _The Weapon Shops of Isher_, which was quite possibly his best book.
> >
>
> Yes, I have been researching him today at work. :-)
> And quite frankly, judging by this story, most of the criticism thrown
> at him just baffles me. Were those critics reading the same author as I
> was?

There are a couple of reasons why van Vogt isn't a grand writer.
His science is based on dreams and is usually less plausible
than other writers. He praises heros for traits that are prosaic
and common. He flatters like a snake oil salesman.

Mike Schilling

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Dec 8, 2006, 11:18:57 AM12/8/06
to
Endy9 wrote:
>
>
> I believe that Damon Knight believed in climbing to fame by pushing
> others down in the mud and standing on them. Unfortunately it seemed
> to work for him. What mystifies me even more than people accepting
> Knight's criticisms and declaring Van Vogt an incompetent writer
> (he's one of my favorite storytellers) is that people are convinced
> that Knight writes great stories. I've never been able to make it
> more than half way through anything I've attempted by him.

Try "Stranger Station" or "The Country of the Kind". Or, to appreciate
Knight's eye for great SF, find a copy of his antology _A Science Fiction
Argosy_. There's a reason Knight was named Grand Master in 1995.


chuck c.

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Dec 8, 2006, 12:34:48 PM12/8/06
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Hi Ted,
I haven't read it in a few years, but I recall being very impressed
with "The Search." IIRC, it contains the idea (time flowing backwards
for a particular area) used to excellent effect decades later in Dan
Simmon's HYPERION.
Cheers,
CC

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Dec 8, 2006, 12:41:23 PM12/8/06
to
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 03:45:06 -0600, "Endy9" <endym...@comcast.net>
wrote:

>I believe that Damon Knight believed in climbing to fame by pushing others
>down in the mud and standing on them.

No, he was just a smartass kid. Very recognizable type. And he never
entirely outgrew it; fifteen years ago, when he first discovered the
online community on GEnie, the sysops thought he was about fourteen
and couldn't understand why professional writers were defeerring to
this snot-nosed punk.

Van Vogt's writing, charming as it is, is lacking in certain ways.
Clearly, they aren't ways you care about, which is fine, but pointing
out those failings wasn't any sort of fraud on Damon's part.

> What mystifies me even more than people accepting Knight's criticisms
>and declaring Van Vogt an incompetent writer (he's one of my favorite
>storytellers) is that people are convinced that Knight writes great stories.

Wrote. He's dead.

>I've never been able to make it more than half way through anything I've
>attempted by him.

That's too bad. Damon wasn't one of my favorite writers -- that
smartass streak could get annoying, and a lot of his work is infused
with a sense of betrayal I don't agree with -- but he wrote some fun
stuff. Mostly his shorter works; novels weren't his strong suit.

> Perhaps it was just a case of jealousy on Knight's part.
>(shrug)

Check the ages; the generational gap was enough that calling it
"jealousy" gives a wrong impression. He was a kid tweaking his
elder's nose.

--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The second issue of Helix is at http://www.helixsf.com
A new Ethshar novel is being serialized at http://www.ethshar.com/thevondishambassador1.html

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Dec 8, 2006, 12:47:26 PM12/8/06
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On 8 Dec 2006 02:27:01 -0800, "Girish" <girishb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The first description, of someone promoting a "new wave," fits Damon
exactly.

He'd grown up reading early Golden Age SF, and when he got old enough
to realize that it wasn't all prophetic brilliance (about nineteen),
he felt cheated and turned on it.

> All *I* know
>is that the SFWA made Vogt one of their Grandmasters (an honor that all
>of SFdom takes great pride in), but then the title has been re-titled
>the Damon Knight award! :-) ;-)

The name change was hasty and ill-considered, but by the time SFWA's
leadership realized this it had been made and couldn't be revoked
without great embarrassment.

Damon did found SFWA, you know. Van Vogt joined. They didn't make a
fetish of their differences.

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Dec 8, 2006, 12:48:39 PM12/8/06
to
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:18:57 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
<mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> There's a reason Knight was named Grand Master in 1995.

True, but I cynically suspect that the fact that he'd recently become
very active in SFWA after a twenty-year hiatus has a lot to do with
it.

Peter D. Tillman

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Dec 8, 2006, 2:40:29 PM12/8/06
to
In article <tt6dnaExGKs9ruTY...@comcast.com>,
"Endy9" <endym...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Just finished an excellent complilation of his short
> fiction titled Transfinite (The Essential A.E. Van Vogt).

Here's another vote for Van's short fiction, and this is a nice,
permanent, and in-print collection. But just about any vV collxn you see
in the used-bookstore is worth picking up.

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the "Mixed Men" stories -- they
are among my favorites. Two that are often reprinted are "The
Weatherman" & "The Storm", from the mid-40's ims. I think they were
collected in a fixup 'novel', which is hard to find.

Happy reading--
Pete Tillman

Mike Schilling

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Dec 8, 2006, 3:01:36 PM12/8/06
to


The novel is called _The Mixed Men_, and abe.com has 95 of them, starting at
$1.50 ($8.00 for a hardcover.)


William Hyde

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Dec 8, 2006, 3:54:37 PM12/8/06
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Girish wrote:
> Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> > In article <1165475895....@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com>,
> > Girish <girishb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > A. E. van Vogt. The Weapon Shop. 1942
> > >

> And quite frankly, judging by this story, most of the criticism thrown


> at him just baffles me. Were those critics reading the same author as I
> was?

I like Van Vogt quite a bit (I must have 30 or so of his books) but the
quality
of his work is highly variable, and even in his best works consistency
is not
always maintained. That bothers some people quite a lot.


> Anything else which is just as stong and/or better?

If you liked Van Vogt, you might want to look for "The Paradox Men"
by Charles L Harness. Or other works by CLH, of course, but this
is the most Van Vogtian of his novels that I have read.

William Hyde

William Hyde

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Dec 8, 2006, 4:08:43 PM12/8/06
to

Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2006 02:27:01 -0800, "Girish" <girishb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>

> >Does it apply to Damon Knight, the critic?
>
> The first description, of someone promoting a "new wave," fits Damon
> exactly.

Though when Knight first criticized Van Vogt, the "new wave" was
but a ripple. "In Search of Wonder" was first published in 1956.
I always thought, though I'm not completely sure, that the first
edition included the Van Vogt criticism.

And not all New Wavers had it in for Van Vogt - he collaborated on a
story with Harlan Ellison, after all.

>
> He'd grown up reading early Golden Age SF, and when he got old enough
> to realize that it wasn't all prophetic brilliance (about nineteen),
> he felt cheated and turned on it.

Wasn't he already a Futurian by age 19?


Willliam Hyde

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

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Dec 8, 2006, 4:18:22 PM12/8/06
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In article <1165611277.2...@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com>,

Also _Croyd_ & _Dr Orpheus_ by Ian Wallace (the latter volume has a
Van Vogt namecheck back to a maneuver from "The Storm").

Ted

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Dec 8, 2006, 4:23:04 PM12/8/06
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On 8 Dec 2006 13:08:43 -0800, "William Hyde" <wthyd...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On 8 Dec 2006 02:27:01 -0800, "Girish" <girishb...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>> >Does it apply to Damon Knight, the critic?
>>
>> The first description, of someone promoting a "new wave," fits Damon
>> exactly.
>
>Though when Knight first criticized Van Vogt, the "new wave" was
>but a ripple. "In Search of Wonder" was first published in 1956.

There's a reason I didn't capitalize "New Wave."

There have been many, many new waves. One of them called itself that
and capitalized it, but it was neither the first nor the last.

Damon Knight was part of the first post-Campbell generation of
writers, a group that had for the most part grown up reading
pre-Campbellian writers and didn't think much of them. The official
"New Wave" was the one _after_ that.

>I always thought, though I'm not completely sure, that the first
>edition included the Van Vogt criticism.
>
>And not all New Wavers had it in for Van Vogt - he collaborated on a
>story with Harlan Ellison, after all.

Damon didn't have it in for Van Vogt, not really; he was just being a
smartass, as I said. Same as Ellison was in his snide comments about
Asimov. It's part of the shtick.

>> He'd grown up reading early Golden Age SF, and when he got old enough
>> to realize that it wasn't all prophetic brilliance (about nineteen),
>> he felt cheated and turned on it.
>
>Wasn't he already a Futurian by age 19?

I think so, yeah.

Gene Ward Smith

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Dec 8, 2006, 4:24:55 PM12/8/06
to

Peter D. Tillman wrote:

> I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the "Mixed Men" stories -- they
> are among my favorites. Two that are often reprinted are "The
> Weatherman" & "The Storm", from the mid-40's ims. I think they were
> collected in a fixup 'novel', which is hard to find.

I mentioned Mission to the Stars, the fixup. I think The Mixed Men is
the sequel.

Peter D. Tillman

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Dec 8, 2006, 9:29:14 PM12/8/06
to

> > Anything else which is just as stong and/or better?

Piggybacking:

Almost certainly you will like Michael Swanwick's affectionate --and
very, very good -- van Vogt homage, "Legions in Time":
http://www.asimovs.com/_issue_0406/legionsintime.shtml

"Time criminals of the Dawn Era!" his voice thundered from a hidden
speaker. "Listen and obey!"

Excellent story.

Happy reading--
Pete Tillman

Mike Schilling

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Dec 9, 2006, 1:43:30 AM12/9/06
to
William Hyde wrote:
> Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On 8 Dec 2006 02:27:01 -0800, "Girish" <girishb...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>
>>> Does it apply to Damon Knight, the critic?
>>
>> The first description, of someone promoting a "new wave," fits Damon
>> exactly.
>
> Though when Knight first criticized Van Vogt, the "new wave" was
> but a ripple. "In Search of Wonder" was first published in 1956.
> I always thought, though I'm not completely sure, that the first
> edition included the Van Vogt criticism.

But the essay is much older. I don't have the exact date (someone out there
no doubt will), but it criticized the original 1945 serialized version of
_The World of Null-A_, and Van Vogt addressed Knight's points in the 1948
book version.


Mike Schilling

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Dec 9, 2006, 1:59:51 AM12/9/06
to
Mike Schilling wrote:

>
> But the essay is much older. I don't have the exact date

Now I do. 1945, in a fanzine called "Destiny's Child". From
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~icshi/Summaries/ThreeWorlds.pdf, which is
invaluable if you're interested in the history of TWoNA.

Robert A. Woodward

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Dec 9, 2006, 2:43:03 AM12/9/06
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In article
<Tillman-67728B...@sn-radius.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,

The fixup, _Mission to the Stars_, is included in the omnibus
_Transgalactic_, a trade paperback published by Baen Books in
October.

--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>

GSV Three Minds in a Can

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Dec 9, 2006, 12:31:11 PM12/9/06
to
Bitstring <pan.2006.12.07....@edenroad.demon.co.uk>, from
the wonderful person David Mitchell <da...@edenroad.demon.co.uk> said

>On Thu, 07 Dec 2006 00:52:15 -0800, Girish wrote:
>
>> Yes, I have been researching him today at work. :-)
>> And quite frankly, judging by this story, most of the criticism thrown
>> at him just baffles me. Were those critics reading the same author as I
>> was?
>>
>> So in my immediate to purchase list, is
>> The Weapon Makers,
>> The Weapon Shops of Isher.
>> Maybe The Null A trilogy.
>> Anything else which is just as stong and/or better?
>
>Personally, I'd buy it all. Oh wait, I already have ;-)
>He has his flaws, and an annoying tendency to re-tread his stories; but I
>love his ideas.

Right, AEvV .. 'the man with a thousand titles', and that's just for his
first story. 8>.

The preceding is a good list, however some of his best stuff was the
short(ish) stories, like _Resurrection_ (aka _The Monster_) or _Voyage
of the Space Beagle_ (get a LARGE hawser to suspend your disbelief from
though).

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
7,053 Km walked. 1,267Km PROWs surveyed. 23.0% complete.

Christopher P. Winter

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Dec 9, 2006, 1:13:34 PM12/9/06
to
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 03:45:06 -0600, "Endy9" <endym...@comcast.net> wrote (in
part):

>
>I believe that Damon Knight believed in climbing to fame by pushing others
>down in the mud and standing on them. Unfortunately it seemed to work for
>him. What mystifies me even more than people accepting Knight's criticisms
>and declaring Van Vogt an incompetent writer (he's one of my favorite
>storytellers) is that people are convinced that Knight writes great stories.
>I've never been able to make it more than half way through anything I've
>attempted by him. Perhaps it was just a case of jealousy on Knight's part.
>(shrug)
>

I enjoyed "Rule Golden" and the novel /Beyond the Barrier/.

As for van Vogt, I think a lot of his stuff is good, and a few stories of
his are unintentionally absurd. One example is the tale in which Nat Cemp
destroys the universe -- and then rebuilds it, editing out the powerful enemy
he was fighting.

Brion K. Lienhart

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Dec 9, 2006, 2:06:14 PM12/9/06
to
William George Ferguson wrote:

> The Van Vogt books that (along with Weapon Shops and Null_A_) are
> considered the definitive Van Vogt are "Slan" and "Voyage of the Space
> Beagle". After reading the latter, you can marvel at the way he ripped off
> the movie 'Alien', decades before 'Alien' was made.
>

Plus he totally stole the Coerl from D&D.

William Hyde

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Dec 9, 2006, 4:57:11 PM12/9/06
to

Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2006 13:08:43 -0800, "William Hyde" <wthyd...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> >> On 8 Dec 2006 02:27:01 -0800, "Girish" <girishb...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> There have been many, many new waves. One of them called itself that
> and capitalized it, but it was neither the first nor the last.

It seems to me that the New Wave has roots that go back well before,
say, Dangerous Visions. I was thinking that Knight's book might have
been part of a slow accumulation which led to the NW a decade later.

Now that Mike has shown that the essay dates back to the 1940s though,
any connection is more tenuous.

> Damon didn't have it in for Van Vogt, not really; he was just being a
> smartass, as I said.

Well, not for Van Vogt, as you showed earlier. But if he reprinted the
essay in the 1996 edition of "In Search of Wonder" I'd say he still
had it in for Null-A.

Same as Ellison was in his snide comments about
> Asimov. It's part of the shtick.

I don't remember Ellison ever saying anything negative about Asimov's
writing. Not seriously, anyway. They did have a mock-adversarial
relationship, if I understand correctly. But Asimov was invited to
contribute to DV, after all.


William Hyde

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Dec 9, 2006, 5:15:32 PM12/9/06
to
On 9 Dec 2006 13:57:11 -0800, "William Hyde" <wthyd...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On 8 Dec 2006 13:08:43 -0800, "William Hyde" <wthyd...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Damon didn't have it in for Van Vogt, not really; he was just being a
>> smartass, as I said.
>
>Well, not for Van Vogt, as you showed earlier. But if he reprinted the
>essay in the 1996 edition of "In Search of Wonder" I'd say he still
>had it in for Null-A.

Well, yeah.

> Same as Ellison was in his snide comments about
>> Asimov. It's part of the shtick.
>
>I don't remember Ellison ever saying anything negative about Asimov's
>writing. Not seriously, anyway. They did have a mock-adversarial
>relationship, if I understand correctly. But Asimov was invited to
>contribute to DV, after all.

Ellison both mocked and admired Asimov; their adversarial relationship
was indeed mostly in fun, but I think it was a little more complicated
than that.

It's like a marriage where one spouse nags the other about some
trivial habit; they may treat it as a joke, they both know nothing's
going to change, but that doesn't mean the nagging spouse doesn't find
the habit annoying. I think Ellison really was a little disappointed
in Asimov in some ways -- that a guy who wrote about galaxy-spanning
adventures disliked travel, for example.

But I could be wrong; I never asked either of them about it.

Endy9

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Dec 9, 2006, 9:45:03 PM12/9/06
to
"Lawrence Watt-Evans" <l...@sff.net> wrote in message
news:gg8jn25a5l3lj8nud...@news.rcn.com...

Thanks for your insights! I'm not saying Van Vogt is one of the greatest
writers ever. I certainly wouldn't put him in that category. I guess it
just irritates me that I almost missed some really enjoyable reading like
Voyage of the Space Beagle, do to one critic. And from what I've read of
his criticisms they are also a pet peeve of mine. Like when people hassle
Larry Niven to correct the physics errors in his Ringworld series. Their
are many people who are good at physics. There are very few who are great
storytellers.

One more example of what I see wrong in these critiques. A local artist who
was considered very talented used to hang her paintings in my father's
restaurant. One day a friend of hers, who was an archtect starting
critiquing what we and many customers thought was her best work ever. It
was a gazebo with ducks around it. Very impressionistic. Great use of
colors. The architect convinced her that her lines and angles were all
wrong and not clear enough. Although famous and talented she was an
insecure personality type. She took the painting home reworked it for
several weeks and brought back basically a blueprint with all the "art"
scrubbed out of it. It was ruined. Just an ordinary drawing.

Joseph Nebus

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Dec 10, 2006, 12:36:15 PM12/10/06
to
"William Hyde" <wthyd...@gmail.com> writes:

>Well, not for Van Vogt, as you showed earlier. But if he reprinted the
>essay in the 1996 edition of "In Search of Wonder" I'd say he still
>had it in for Null-A.

Er -- hang on, was there a 1996 edition of 'In Search of
Wonder'? I only knew of an original circa 1956 and a revised circa
1968 edition.

Anyway, Knight's comments about the essay in the 1968 edition,
to the effect that he wasn't very proud of the essay (mostly on its
style -- it is written like a very pedantic Usenet flame -- and some
more serious points like at least one factual error, but that he was
including it because it seemed relevant still) suggest to me that he
just had the feeling that once he put the essay in, it should stay in,
and tinker with it only for copy-editing or adding notes explaining
context when time had changed things.

--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


William Hyde

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Dec 10, 2006, 12:52:17 PM12/10/06
to

Joseph Nebus wrote:
> "William Hyde" <wthyd...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >Well, not for Van Vogt, as you showed earlier. But if he reprinted the
> >essay in the 1996 edition of "In Search of Wonder" I'd say he still
> >had it in for Null-A.
>
> Er -- hang on, was there a 1996 edition of 'In Search of
> Wonder'? I only knew of an original circa 1956 and a revised circa
> 1968 edition.

While trying to solve the question Mike answered, I found that
there was a third edition in 1996.

>
> Anyway, Knight's comments about the essay in the 1968 edition,
> to the effect that he wasn't very proud of the essay (mostly on its
> style -- it is written like a very pedantic Usenet flame -- and some
> more serious points like at least one factual error, but that he was
> including it because it seemed relevant still) suggest to me that he
> just had the feeling that once he put the essay in, it should stay in,
> and tinker with it only for copy-editing or adding notes explaining
> context when time had changed things.

But did you get the impression that he had changed his mind
about the merits of the Null-A books?

William Hyde

Mike Schilling

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Dec 10, 2006, 1:49:54 PM12/10/06
to

Let's back up a little. Knight's essay was an all-out attack on the 1945
serialized version of TWoNA. Most of his objections were answered in the
1948 book version, which he later reviewed more or less positively.

http://vanvogt.www4.mmedia.is/damon.htm


Girish

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Dec 11, 2006, 11:24:10 PM12/11/06
to

First up, thanks everyone for the responses, the story links and the
great recommendations!
I wouldn't get my hands on the Weapon shop series but have already
purchased
_Slan_ and _The World of Null-A_. My favorite 2nd hand shop also had
the following, but so far I have not purchased so that I do not
overdose on his wild talent. :-)
Please tell me if I am crazy to pass up on the chance to buy the
following:
1) The Winged Man (1944) with E. Mayne Hull
2) Lost: Fifty Suns (1977)
3) The Wizard of Linn (1962) - I know it has already been recommended,
but just holding back a bit. :-)

Mike Schilling

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Dec 11, 2006, 11:44:23 PM12/11/06
to

"Girish" <girishb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1165897450.4...@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com...

> Please tell me if I am crazy to pass up on the chance to buy the
> following:

> 2) Lost: Fifty Suns (1977)

This one's a collection, AKA _The Book of Van Vogt_. It includes the title
story, which is part of _The Mixed Men_ (AKA _Mission to the Stars_ and "The
Barbarian", which is part of _Empire of the Atom_. IMHO, those are the best
two stories in the book, so I'd buy the novels instead.


Ted Nolan <tednolan>

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Dec 12, 2006, 12:23:30 AM12/12/06
to
In article <1165897450.4...@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com>,

I believe _Lost: Fifty Suns_ is some configuration of the Mixed Men stuff.

I would start with _World of Null-A_ rather than _Slan_. I didn't like
_Slan_ that much, not very cosmic at all.

_Wizard of Linn_ is good, but you need to read _Empire of the Atom_ first.

Haven't read _The Winged Man_, but of the three Hull collaborations
in _The Gryb_, I though "The Problem Professor"/"Problem Spaceship"
was weak, "The Invisibility Gambit"/"Abdication" was pretty good,
and "Rebirth: Earth"/"The Flight that Failed" was weak but with a moving
death scene. I would say that on that basis, I do plan to read _The WInged
Man_, but that _Planets for Sale_ would be higher on my list.

Ted

Girish

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Dec 12, 2006, 1:32:20 AM12/12/06
to

Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>
> The name change was hasty and ill-considered, but by the time SFWA's
> leadership realized this it had been made and couldn't be revoked
> without great embarrassment.
>

I know, I know there ARE far better things to worry about, but since
you comprise approx 0.1% of the membership, and are in fact actively
involved in SFWA politics, do you sometimes get the feeling that too
many authors are reluctant to get their hands dirty and to change
things to the Way They Should Be? :-)

Lawrence Watt-Evans

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Dec 12, 2006, 2:17:02 AM12/12/06
to
On 11 Dec 2006 22:32:20 -0800, "Girish" <girishb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Ha.

First off, I am no longer a member of SFWA; I finally got fed up and
quit a couple of months ago.

Second, there are plenty of authors who are happy to meddle and change
everything in sight -- and then they run smack into all the OTHER
authors, who either want things to stay the same, or who agree that
Change Is Essential but differ on WHAT change. This is why SFWA is
famous for stupid feuds and endless flamewars -- so much so that
there's an official annual schedule. (Paging Brenda Clough...)

In the case of renaming the Grand Master Award, the problem there is
that "Grand Master" was a perfectly good name as it stood. The award
that was desperate for a new name, and which would have been perfectly
appropriate, was the Service to SFWA Award (yes, it exists); that
would've been just lovely as the Damon Knight Memorial Service Award.
I mean, Damon invented SFWA, and put in an absurd amount of effort on
things like contract reviews, so "service to SFWA" was something he
fit with.

The Grand Master Award was created specifically for Robert Heinlein,
on the theory that he was too sick to ever write again and hadn't won
the Nebulas he should have because most of his best work was done
before SFWA was invented. He recovered and wrote a bunch more stuff,
but even so, if it was going to be named after someone, Heinlein was
the obvious choice, not Damon.

But when Damon died, rather unexpectedly, the SFWA Board of Directors
felt they needed to quickly do SOMETHING drastic to memorialize him,
and they renamed the Grand Master in his honor before thinking it
through.

Unfortunately, by the time everyone agreed on what I've said in the
two paragraphs preceding the last one (and amazingly, there really is
something of a consensus), they'd announced the name change and were
kind of stuck with it.

I mean, it would look really bad to say, "Ha ha, whoops, no, we didn't
REALLY want to name that award after our beloved founder, that was
just our little joke! No, he gets this obscure award no one outside
of SFWA ever heard of, instead!"

So they didn't say that, and it's the Damon Knight Grand Master Award.

chuck c.

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Dec 12, 2006, 9:28:36 AM12/12/06
to

Robert A. Woodward wrote:
> In article
<snip>

> >
> > I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the "Mixed Men" stories -- they
> > are among my favorites. Two that are often reprinted are "The
> > Weatherman" & "The Storm", from the mid-40's ims. I think they were
> > collected in a fixup 'novel', which is hard to find.
>
> The fixup, _Mission to the Stars_, is included in the omnibus
> _Transgalactic_, a trade paperback published by Baen Books in
> October.
>
> --
> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
> <http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
Hi Robert,
"Mission to the Stars," at least originally, was an ABRIDGED
(Berkeley p/b) edition of the Gnome Press original , "The Mixed Men."
the latter is, of course, a fixup. I don't know which is in current
print these days.
Cheers,
CC

Howard Brazee

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Dec 12, 2006, 8:23:15 PM12/12/06
to
On 11 Dec 2006 20:24:10 -0800, "Girish" <girishb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Please tell me if I am crazy to pass up on the chance to buy the


>following:
>1) The Winged Man (1944) with E. Mayne Hull
>2) Lost: Fifty Suns (1977)
>3) The Wizard of Linn (1962) - I know it has already been recommended,
>but just holding back a bit. :-)

They are quick reads - and adults have to be in the right mood
(pretend you are still a kid) - might as well - Van Vogt epitomizes a
lot of old time SF.

Girish

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Dec 13, 2006, 1:31:58 AM12/13/06
to

Peter D. Tillman wrote:

> "Time criminals of the Dawn Era!" his voice thundered from a hidden
> speaker. "Listen and obey!"
>

I loved the bit about the ships needing a pilot and a button-pusher.
:-)

thanks!
Girish

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