Existence?

[Michael Stemper]

I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?

--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Life's too important to take seriously.

[Scott Lurndal]

mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
>on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
>don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
>here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?
>

News to me, too.

You may want to start here: http://www.davidbrin.com/existence.html

scott

[Michael Stemper]

In article <eDbVr.256899$b83....@news.usenetserver.com>, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:

>>I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
>>on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
>>don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
>>here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?
>
>News to me, too.

It's slightly embarassing, since I'm supposed to be the family's "go-to"
guy for SF.

>You may want to start here: http://www.davidbrin.com/existence.html

Thanks. I found that too, and will pass it along. However, based on
the domain name, it's probably not going to give unbiased reviews.

[Scott Lurndal]

mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>In article <eDbVr.256899$b83....@news.usenetserver.com>, sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>
>>>I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
>>>on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
>>>don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
>>>here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?
>>
>>News to me, too.
>
>It's slightly embarassing, since I'm supposed to be the family's "go-to"
>guy for SF.
>
>>You may want to start here: http://www.davidbrin.com/existence.html
>
>Thanks. I found that too, and will pass it along. However, based on
>the domain name, it's probably not going to give unbiased reviews.

There appear to be several novellas extracted from the novel available
there for free, so that may be the best way to taste the goods.

scott

[Quadibloc]

Michael Stemper wrote:
> However, based on
> the domain name, it's probably not going to give unbiased reviews.

But look at the bright side. It answers one of your questions
definitively: based on the domain name, you can be sure that the book
actually exists, and it was really written by the purported author.

John Savard

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:32:18 +0000 (UTC),
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:

>I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
>on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
>don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
>here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?

Not covered here yet, as far as I've noticed; rasfw is a bit Brin-shy
these years, for some reason. His last, _Kiln People_, was pretty
good.

I've got _Existence_ upstairs but I'm not sure I've got the wrist
strength for it... _Reamde_ is up there too. Why can't publishers just
give out the etext along with the paper?

Cheers - Jaimie
--
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing.

[Howard Brazee]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:32:18 +0000 (UTC),
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:

>I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
>on David Brin's _Existence_.

He exists.

8^)

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

[David DeLaney]

I can confirm that also, having seen it in hardback at the bookstore. I'm
planning to pick it up when it finally gets to actual paperback size.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 8/10/2012 12:32 PM, Michael Stemper wrote:
> I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
> on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
> don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
> here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?

_Existence_ by David Brin was released on
http://www.amazon.com/Existence-David-Brin/dp/0765303612/
June 19, 2012 according to Amazon. 3.4 stars out
of 5 stars on Amazon with 57 reviews. Not good.

The MMPB will be out February 26, 2013 according
http://www.amazon.com/Existence-Kiln-Books-David-Brin/dp/0765342626/
to Amazon who seems to have an amazing precognition
of these dates <g>.

The MMPB has been in my wish list for several
weeks now, ever since I saw it at B&N in hardback.

Lynn

[Keith Soltys]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:32:18 +0000 (UTC), mste...@walkabout.empros.com
(Michael Stemper) wrote:

>I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
>on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
>don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
>here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?

I'm reading it now - about a quarter of the way through - and thoroughly
enjoying it. Reminds me of John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar, in technique at
least.

Keith
------------------------------------------------------------------
Keith Soltys -- ksoltys@-NOSPAM-rogers.com -- http://www.soltys.ca/
------------------------------------------------------------------
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest
of places if you look at it right - Grateful Dead/Scarlet Begonias

[Don Bruder]

In article <952b28tbqjn4lnthm...@4ax.com>,

Keith Soltys <ksoltys@-NOSPAM-rogers.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:32:18 +0000 (UTC), mste...@walkabout.empros.com
> (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
> >I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
> >on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
> >don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
> >here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?
>
> I'm reading it now - about a quarter of the way through - and thoroughly
> enjoying it. Reminds me of John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar, in technique at
> least.

A quick query, since you're actually reading it: Is it connected to his
"Uplift" universe, is it sort of "Earth: The Sequel", or does it stand
completely alone?

Second query: Is it as heavily loaded with his increasingly tiresome
tree-hugger/save-the-whales/etc propaganda disguised as SF as,
ferinstance, Earth? Or has he figured out that at lease some of us have
caught on and don't need so much preaching?

--
Email shown is deceased. If you would like to contact me by email, please
post something that makes it obvious in this or another group you see me
posting in with a "how to contact you" address, and I'll get back to you.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:50:42 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net>
wrote:

>Second query: Is it as heavily loaded with his increasingly tiresome
>tree-hugger/save-the-whales/etc propaganda disguised as SF as,
>ferinstance, Earth?

Why do people go on about that? It's *only* in Earth that he includes
that sort of thing.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
When the ad says "Kills 99.9 percent of bacteria!" my reflexive
response is "...and the 0.1 percent left can bench-press a truck"
-- David Staples, asr

[Chris Buckley]

On 2012-08-10, Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote:
> I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
> on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
> don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
> here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?

I read it several weeks ago; I hadn't even noticed the lack of
comments on it until now, and it deserves comments.

For the first 3/4 or so, I considered it the strongest book I've read
this year. It was interesting; exploring Fermi's Paradox thoroughly
and looking at the development cycle of civilization and offering new
answers. (A couple of the ideas on other civilization interactions
seemed familiar from another writer, perhaps Paul MacAuley?). It was
very good.

IMO, it lost a lot of steam in the ending, however. Badly paced with
too much dwelling on obvious things, too many unbelievable things (the
other civilizations were too alike in some respects), without a real
climax and resolution related to the characters that we had come to
know.

It's a big idea, pure science fiction novel. It's unconnected to any
of his other novels, as far as I can tell. To answer another responder's
question, it's much, much better than Stephenson's _REAMDE_.

I still expect it will be among the year's 5-10 best novels for me,
but it could have been much more. (I really liked the first 3/4).

Chris

[James Nicoll]

In article <952b28tbqjn4lnthm...@4ax.com>,
Keith Soltys <ksoltys@-NOSPAM-rogers.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:32:18 +0000 (UTC), mste...@walkabout.empros.com
>(Michael Stemper) wrote:
>
>>I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
>>on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
>>don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
>>here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?
>
>I'm reading it now - about a quarter of the way through - and thoroughly
>enjoying it. Reminds me of John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar, in technique at
>least.

Huh. Never thought about it but this makes two Dos Passosian SF novels
this year: this one and Kim Stanley Robinson's 2312. In KSR's case,
it felt less like he was trying to emulate his betters and more like
he'd decided to pad his tedious little turd of a book by sticking
a giant hose connected directly to wikipedia into the manuscript.

I thought the Brin could have been much worse than it was. It's heavy
on the fan pandering (and because Brin doesn't trust his readers,
he lampshades his references, in particular wrt Simak), I think
the theory that being able to queue is a symptom of living in a
tyranny is a new one to me, and it could have stood to be 200
pages shorter but there was some interesting stuff in there.

It probably helps not to be too familiar with Brin so you miss
the references to his particular obsessions.

Oh, some portions of the book have appeared before and while
Tor (after whom Brin has named a character; most subtle!) didn't
see fit to flag this in the copy I saw, Brin does in an afterword.



--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

[James Nicoll]

In article <o77c289s5t53soomk...@4ax.com>,

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:50:42 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Second query: Is it as heavily loaded with his increasingly tiresome
>>tree-hugger/save-the-whales/etc propaganda disguised as SF as,
>>ferinstance, Earth?
>
>Why do people go on about that? It's *only* in Earth that he includes
>that sort of thing.

Technically, it's part of the basic assumptions of the civilization
in the UpLift series; mistreating a world that could be an abode of
life for billions of years is seriously frowned on. I think there's
a bit in Sundive about hurriedly concealing just how much humans
trashed the Earth so the aliens never find out.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:05:33 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <o77c289s5t53soomk...@4ax.com>,
>Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>>On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:50:42 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Second query: Is it as heavily loaded with his increasingly tiresome
>>>tree-hugger/save-the-whales/etc propaganda disguised as SF as,
>>>ferinstance, Earth?
>>
>>Why do people go on about that? It's *only* in Earth that he includes
>>that sort of thing.
>
>Technically, it's part of the basic assumptions of the civilization
>in the UpLift series; mistreating a world that could be an abode of
>life for billions of years is seriously frowned on. I think there's
>a bit in Sundive about hurriedly concealing just how much humans
>trashed the Earth so the aliens never find out.

Hmm. I don't think that's really going to tickle the rabid
anti-environmentalists in the same way as Earth does. But my model may
be faulty - I think they're nuts.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Ambiguity Man Strikes Again! (...or /does/ he?)
-- Eric Schwartz, asr

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On 11 Aug 2012 12:43:52 GMT, Chris Buckley <al...@sabir.com> wrote:

> To answer another responder's
>question, it's much, much better than Stephenson's _REAMDE_.

It wasn't a question, just a similarity in weight! But I appreciate
the answer and will leave the Stephenson on the pending stack.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
>So, what do *you* do for a living?
I sit in a chair pressing small plastic rectangles with my fingers
while peering at many tiny, colored dots. -- Peter Manders

[James Nicoll]

In article <p9qc28t66d5kor4mb...@4ax.com>,

Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:05:33 +0000 (UTC), jdni...@panix.com (James
>Nicoll) wrote:
>
>>In article <o77c289s5t53soomk...@4ax.com>,
>>Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:50:42 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>Second query: Is it as heavily loaded with his increasingly tiresome
>>>>tree-hugger/save-the-whales/etc propaganda disguised as SF as,
>>>>ferinstance, Earth?
>>>
>>>Why do people go on about that? It's *only* in Earth that he includes
>>>that sort of thing.
>>
>>Technically, it's part of the basic assumptions of the civilization
>>in the UpLift series; mistreating a world that could be an abode of
>>life for billions of years is seriously frowned on. I think there's
>>a bit in Sundive about hurriedly concealing just how much humans
>>trashed the Earth so the aliens never find out.
>
>Hmm. I don't think that's really going to tickle the rabid
>anti-environmentalists in the same way as Earth does. But my model may
>be faulty - I think they're nuts.

It could be understated enough by comparison to Brin's airhorn-like
proclamations since 1990 or so that it will go unnoticed unless someone
points it out but I do think the ecological concerns were right there
from the start. Of course making those concerns something an oppressive
and doctrinaire culture worries about sends a mixed message.

[Don Bruder]

In article <o77c289s5t53soomk...@4ax.com>,
Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:50:42 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Second query: Is it as heavily loaded with his increasingly tiresome
> >tree-hugger/save-the-whales/etc propaganda disguised as SF as,
> >ferinstance, Earth?
>
> Why do people go on about that? It's *only* in Earth that he includes
> that sort of thing.

"*only*"????

By that statement, I haven't got any choice but to conclude that you've
not read any Brin other than "Earth". Or if you have, you somehow
managed to overlook his eco-compulsion.

The Uplift series utterly drips with it - perhaps even more than
"Earth", albeit at a higher scale. Not so much "Gotta save the <pick a
single species on a single planet>!" as "Gotta save the entire ecology
of the 4th spiral arm of galaxy <mumble>!"

It's noticeable in Sundiver, thankfully as a relatively small,
reasonably contained side-excursion. It gets a bit thicker in "Startide
Rising", but remains at least decently under control. In "The Uplift
War", the gloves come off - it's a fairly major sub-plot. In the second
trilogy of the bunch, it's practically the central premise throughout
the first two volumes - we get beat over the head with the "Oh woe!
We're evil invaders destroying the pristine ecosystem!" club almost
continuously. It gets harped on over and over, although not quite as
stridently, in the third. Taken as a whole, the entire Uplift series
could have been a sermon written by Greenpeace. (or pick whatever other
eco-nutters you prefer) The fact that it's wrapped in a pretty decent SF
tale (despite kind of going off the rails towards the end) doesn't do
much to change that reality.

Even "The Postman" uses it as "spice". I haven't gotten around to "Glory
Season" yet, but from a reference to it in one of his author's notes,
(can't recall the precise wording, but it went something like "expands
on some of the ideas in Glory Season") it likely has just as much.

Of the eight novels from him that I've read, six of them pound the
"eco-drum" so hard that it frequently drowns out the rest of the
orchestra, another one thumps it pretty solidly, And the 8th taps on it
a few times. Hardly "*only* in Earth"...

[Walter Bushell]

In article <rsma2814hvm2jen97...@4ax.com>,

3.5 stars on Amazon, not I think a good sign.

--
This space unintentionally left blank.

[David DeLaney]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:

>Jaimie Vandenbergh <jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:
>>Why do people go on about that? It's *only* in Earth that he includes
>>that sort of thing.
>
>Technically, it's part of the basic assumptions of the civilization
>in the UpLift series; mistreating a world that could be an abode of
>life for billions of years is seriously frowned on. I think there's
>a bit in Sundive about hurriedly concealing just how much humans
>trashed the Earth so the aliens never find out.

Especially the extinctions of various species. Those would have been Bad.

Dave "imagine total protonic reversal" DeLaney

[David Duffy]

James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> this year: this one and Kim Stanley Robinson's 2312. In KSR's case,
> it felt less like he was trying to emulate his betters and more like
> he'd decided to pad his tedious little turd of a book

So, you don't recommend reading it?

[Keith Soltys]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:50:42 -0700, Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:

>In article <952b28tbqjn4lnthm...@4ax.com>,
> Keith Soltys <ksoltys@-NOSPAM-rogers.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:32:18 +0000 (UTC), mste...@walkabout.empros.com
>> (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>
>> >I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
>> >on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
>> >don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
>> >here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?
>>
>> I'm reading it now - about a quarter of the way through - and thoroughly
>> enjoying it. Reminds me of John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar, in technique at
>> least.
>
>A quick query, since you're actually reading it: Is it connected to his
>"Uplift" universe, is it sort of "Earth: The Sequel", or does it stand
>completely alone?

I don't think it's connected to the Uplift universs - there are dolphins, but
I don't know yet if they are uplifted.

>
>Second query: Is it as heavily loaded with his increasingly tiresome
>tree-hugger/save-the-whales/etc propaganda disguised as SF as,
>ferinstance, Earth? Or has he figured out that at lease some of us have
>caught on and don't need so much preaching?

Yeah, there's some preaching but since I'm converted it doesn't bother me.

It's a very dense book and I like the way he just dives into it and lets you
figure out all the little details for yourself. I'm enjoying it more than
anything else I've read this year, and that's saying a lot as it's been a
really good year for SF so far.

[Keith Soltys]

On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 15:19:59 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh
<jai...@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

>On 11 Aug 2012 12:43:52 GMT, Chris Buckley <al...@sabir.com> wrote:
>
>> To answer another responder's
>>question, it's much, much better than Stephenson's _REAMDE_.
>
>It wasn't a question, just a similarity in weight! But I appreciate
>the answer and will leave the Stephenson on the pending stack.

Stephenson's book would have been much better if it had been edited down by
about 1/3. It got really really tedious in places.

I'm finding this with a lot of books these days - some authors need to be
edited more tightly.

>
> Cheers - Jaimie

Regards,

[none chuk]

In article <k03gj2$me4$1...@dont-email.me>,

Michael Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I just got a query from my brother-in-law, who's seeking an opinion
>on David Brin's _Existence_. Not only I haven't read it, but I
>don't recall having even heard of it before. Was there discussion
>here that I missed? Does anybody have an opinion on it? With reasons?

Put me on the generally positive side, especially for the first several
parts of the book. Starts near-ish future (I don't remember the dates
but probably before 2075? Maybe 2100.) and is relatively hard SF except
for a certain outlier. I loved the answer to the Fermi Paradox and don't
recall seeing it suggested before, and I liked that it was relatively
non-violent (at least as far as protagonists/viewpoint characters are
concerned). Still had lots of good and exciting scenes, some infodumping
but it is not very offensive and usually in character.

Oh, there was one character who I really hated, almost the Jar Jar Binks
of the book -- other characters even say how much he sucks, and he turns
out to be just pretending to be like that but I still would have liked
the book better with little or none of him.