SF and BDSM
Douglas Reay
WARNING: this thread is now crossposted to rec.arts.sf.written
as well as soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm where it originated.
Amity <am...@tpe.com> wrote:
>
> So much of sci fi treats women as subs/slaves/whip"ees" that it's
> rarely interested me
[ ...snip...]
> And why isn't there good sci fi out there for Femdoms?
How about "Cyteen" by C.J. Cherryh?
If you allow SF to include fantasy there are also
"Sword-Singer" by Jennifer Roberson (book 2 of a series)
"Finder" by Emma Bull
A harder question would be, is there any good SF written
by a male author that would be of interest to femdoms?
Pallando
--
NB I have changed the subject of this thread to make sense to
both groups. I hope the crossposting will bring added interest,
not a flamewar. Then again, I'm an optimist.
Jo Walton
In article <346868...@beyond2000.co.uk>
DONT.SPA...@beyond2000.co.uk "Douglas Reay" writes:
> WARNING: this thread is now crossposted to rec.arts.sf.written
> as well as soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm where it originated.
>
> Amity <am...@tpe.com> wrote:
> >
> > And why isn't there good sci fi out there for Femdoms?
>
> How about "Cyteen" by C.J. Cherryh?
I'm very fond of :Cyteen: but it's hardly that, or so very little of it
is I can't see it as being of interest like that.
> A harder question would be, is there any good SF written
> by a male author that would be of interest to femdoms?
Douglas Barr's :Space Relations: would seem to qualify.
Elizabeth Lynn's :The Sardonyx Net: might also be of interest, even
though it's by a woman.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Blue Jo Web Page - Blood of Kings Poetry, Reviews, Interstichia
20 poems by me, 11 poems by Graydon, Momentum Guidelines,
storytelling card games... all at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
James Michael Rogers
In article <346868...@beyond2000.co.uk>,
>>
>> So much of sci fi treats women as subs/slaves/whip"ees" that it's
>> rarely interested me
>[ ...snip...]
>
>How about "Cyteen" by C.J. Cherryh?
>
>"Sword-Singer" by Jennifer Roberson (book 2 of a series)
>"Finder" by Emma Bull
>
>by a male author that would be of interest to femdoms?
Wasn't the much maligned Terry Goodkind all over this?
James
>
Matthew Malthouse
m wrote:
} x no archive: yes
}
} Douglas Reay wrote:
} > Amity <am...@tpe.com> wrote:
} > > And why isn't there good sci fi out there for Femdoms?
} > How about "Cyteen" by C.J. Cherryh?
} > If you allow SF to include fantasy there are also
} > "Sword-Singer" by Jennifer Roberson (book 2 of a series)
} > "Finder" by Emma Bull
} > A harder question would be, is there any good SF written
} > by a male author that would be of interest to femdoms?
}
} If you mention C.J. Cherryh, then don't forget "Yeager". Excellent.
}
} Male authors? John Varley, "The Satellite/The Magician/The Demon" (i
} guess these are the original titels). Featuring really strong women as
} the heroes, and a lesbian love story (hi Philip!) as well. One of my
} all-time favourites.
I have them in Ace (US) and Orbit (UK) editions as "Titan", "Wizard" and
"Demon".
Looking along the shelves of the relatively few women there are even fewer
who regularly write with female protagonists. For strong, but not really
dommely characters, Sherri Tepper, Lisa Tuttle, Midori Snyder, Anne
MacCaffrey. Janny Wurts. I'm currently reading Mary Doria Russell's "The
Sparrow" which I would unhesitatingly recomend to anybody into SF or not.
But men (IMHO) write women well only seldom: Iain M Banks, Terry Pratchet
(for the humour), Robert Jordan (definately Dommes, but not well drawn).
I'm surprised not have seen the name of Stephen Donaldson. The "Mordant's
Need" dyptich, "The Mirror of Her Dreams" and "A Man Rides Through" has a
central character that is the antithesis of a 'strong' woman but who finds
the strength to survive and triumph. There's his "The daughter of Regals"
novella length title story of a collection of shorts.
And then there's the "Gap" series: "The Gap into Conflict: The Real Story",
The Gap into Vision: Forbidden Knowledge", The Gap into Power: A Dark and
Hungry God Arises", :The Gap into Madness: Chaos and Order" and "The Gap
into Ruin: This Day All Gods Die".
Of six or seven major characters two are women, one in a position of
authority. The other, Morn Hyland, starts as the quintessence of
powerlesness, ultimate victim, yet she is the centre around which most of
the significant action takes place and she too survives to have a real
influence on the outcome.
A WARNING: I love this series and consider it Donaldson's best work but
there is little if anything about it that is attractive. It's dark, dark
and sordid. The first book is particularly wracking and possibly to be
avoided by the more sensitive. But the first is short compared with the
other four big tomes and is essentially a scene setting. If you read it
feel unwilling to read more please try, as without the sequels the violence
and degredation of the first will appear even more gratuitous and possibly
offensive.
ObBDSM: "2029" by Townsend. Every time I pick it up I find something else
more interesting to read.
Matthew
--
"Homo sum: humani nihil a me alienum puto"
mailto:matthew....@guardian.co.uk
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/6630/index.html
http://www.calmeilles.demon.co.uk/index.html
Spectrum
Hijacking, to get back to the original question:
C.J. Cherryh, the Morgaine Trilogy: "Gate of Ivrel," "Well of Shiuan,"
"Fires of Azeroth." *Explicitly* Femdom/malesub relationship of the
protagonists. {Daw, 1976-79}
-^-
Sion Arrowsmith
In article <64bu4d$du5$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
Spectrum <spec...@magenta.com> wrote:
>>} > Amity <am...@tpe.com> wrote:
>>} > > And why isn't there good sci fi out there for Femdoms?
>C.J. Cherryh, the Morgaine Trilogy: "Gate of Ivrel," "Well of Shiuan,"
>"Fires of Azeroth." *Explicitly* Femdom/malesub relationship of the
>protagonists. {Daw, 1976-79}
There's lots of little bits and pieces all over the place --
first two I can think of (because the books were in my head at
the time) are _West of Eden_ (if you can take inter-species
stuff) and, bizarrely, _The Female Man_ ("chronologically"
middle section). For fantasy, go directly to _Tales of
Neveryon_ -- if you think Morgaine/Vanye is explicit....
--
\S -- si...@chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
___ | Spot the sleevenotes #9: | 88% of clowns
\X/ | "This album is dedicated to Glastonbury '97 | never fall
<*> | and all who sailed in her..." | in love
Richard Shetron
Things that come to mind that include strong female characters (not
bdsm related):
Andre Norton, many stories
David Weber's Honor Harrington series
Indirectly, perhaps, Joe Haldeman's Forever War (Everyone fights)
The current Starship Troopers movie, but not the book.
Sharon Green, both some of the older work and her current series.
The older work is has a fair amount of bdsm type stuff in it.
Simon R. Green, the cruiser Shenendahoa stories (Hope I got the reference
right, my books are buried behind wizvax.net equipment.)
Lawless
It may have been Amity who wrote:
> A harder question would be, is there any good SF written
> by a male author that would be of interest to femdoms?
Science Fiction, or Speculative Fiction (to include Fantasy, Swords &
Sorcery)? Hard science fiction, I can't think of much, certainly not
offhand. But Fantasy, oh yeah. :)
Robert Jordan's Crown of Time series is some good fantasy that does,
hither and thither, have some BDSMy scenes, most often from a female
dominant side of things. Very long series and books, with many sub
motifs and a large cast of excellent and varied characters. Not so
much BDSM in the first books, which are your basic country lads coming
of age type material. Well, not your -basic- stuff, quite interesting
really.
Guy Gavriel Kay (whom I, btw, consider to be the finest artist with
words alive today) has at least a little -something- in each of his
books. The Fionavir Tapestry (trilogy) has a young man submit to, and
sacrifice his life to a Goddess as lover. Tigana has a young chap who
is seduced by, and bound and tormented by, a lovely widow. _A Song for
Arbonne_ has a few nice femdom scenes, and his most recent work, _The
Lions of Al'Rassan_ has several bits and pieces, including one quite
nice segment in which a wife has her husband bound by men and torments
him a bit. Again - incredibly high level of writing here, with several
of the books using extensive historical research to create worlds with
a strong basis in renaissance era france in one, moorish spain in another.
The best, though, from a femdom/bdsm perspective, would have to be Terry
Goodkind's _Wizard's First Rule_. A good, solid read, with, if I recall
correctly, around 100 pages devoted to some fairly extreme, heavy SM
femdom matter that's written well enough that you (well, I) would
-almost- want to be involved in such nonconsensual matters with Dena.
--
-- \_awless is : Chase Vogelsberg (lawless at howling dot com)
--
-- A wolf by any other flame....
Jo Walton
In article <64bu4d$du5$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
spec...@magenta.com "Spectrum" writes:
> Hijacking, to get back to the original question:
> >} > Amity <am...@tpe.com> wrote:
> >} > > And why isn't there good sci fi out there for Femdoms?
>
> C.J. Cherryh, the Morgaine Trilogy: "Gate of Ivrel," "Well of Shiuan,"
> "Fires of Azeroth." *Explicitly* Femdom/malesub relationship of the
> protagonists. {Daw, 1976-79}
But, um, while Morgaine is the lord and Vanye is her vassal, while she
is strong and knowledgeable and in a position of power and he is
comparatively ignorant and young, if anyone was reading these books
expecting there to be anything either explicitly or implicitly sexual
about them I think they'd be very confused. These are books about
people who respect each other, and there is no sex in them, though
there is some (very vanilla and non-graphic) in :Exile's Gate:, the
fourth one.
Either my idea of 'Femdom' (which admittedly doesn't have all that
much basis) is wrong and the word just means "a strong female character"
or I think you're mistaken.
John Moreno
In rec.arts.sf.written Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
] In article <64bu4d$du5$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
] spec...@magenta.com "Spectrum" writes:
]
] > Hijacking, to get back to the original question:
] > >} > Amity <am...@tpe.com> wrote:
] > >} > > And why isn't there good sci fi out there for Femdoms?
] >
] > C.J. Cherryh, the Morgaine Trilogy: "Gate of Ivrel," "Well of
] > Shiuan," "Fires of Azeroth." *Explicitly* Femdom/malesub
] > relationship of the protagonists. {Daw, 1976-79}
]
] But, um, while Morgaine is the lord and Vanye is her vassal, while she
] is strong and knowledgeable and in a position of power and he is
] comparatively ignorant and young, if anyone was reading these books
] expecting there to be anything either explicitly or implicitly sexual
]
] Either my idea of 'Femdom' (which admittedly doesn't have all that
] much basis) is wrong and the word just means "a strong female
] character" or I think you're mistaken.
Well, I wasn't paying to much attention to the subject - and I it was a
abbreviation for female-fandom?
But, there's a rape scene in one of the F.M. Busby's book - the one
where the lead character is a black female. Strong female lead, but
IIRC that's the only gal raping a guy in the book - although it's
implied that there has been lesbian rape, but that takes place
off-stage.
--
John Moreno
Carrie A Schutrick
>Male authors? John Varley, "The Satellite/The Magician/The Demon" (i
>guess these are the original titels). Featuring really strong women as
>the heroes, and a lesbian love story (hi Philip!) as well. One of my
>all-time favourites.
Titan, Wizard, and Demon, actually. I don't know as those are
particularly "of interest to femdoms," however, since the male
characters tend to be just as strong, in different ways.
--Carrie S.
*****Carrie Schutri...@andrew.cmu.edu--Pittsburgh PA--CMU*****
<http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~caos>
Unsolicited commercial email sent to this address will be subject to a $1500
processing fee. Sending mail to this address, manually or automatically,
implies consent to these terms.
Joe Zeff
matthew....@guardian.co.uk (Matthew Malthouse) wrote:
>I have them in Ace (US) and Orbit (UK) editions as "Titan", "Wizard" and
>"Demon".
>
Slightly off-topic, but this made me think of an old joke: for those
of you that remember the old Ace Doubles[1], here's the proposed
titles for the Ace Double edition of a famous pair ofbooks[2]: War God
of Ancient Israel and The Thing With Three Souls.
[1]Two books, back to back, upside down to each other.
[2]Gur Byq naq Arj Grfgnzragf.[3]
[3]Use Rot13 if you can't figure it out.
---
Joe Zeff
The Guy With the Sideburns
If you can't play with words, what good are they?
http://www.lasfs.org
Spectrum
In article <879345...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>,
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <64bu4d$du5$1...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
> spec...@magenta.com "Spectrum" writes:
>> Hijacking, to get back to the original question:
>> >} > Amity <am...@tpe.com> wrote:
>> >} > > And why isn't there good sci fi out there for Femdoms?
>>
>> C.J. Cherryh, the Morgaine Trilogy: "Gate of Ivrel," "Well of Shiuan,"
>> "Fires of Azeroth." *Explicitly* Femdom/malesub relationship of the
>> protagonists. {Daw, 1976-79}
>
>But, um, while Morgaine is the lord and Vanye is her vassal, while she
>is strong and knowledgeable and in a position of power and he is
>comparatively ignorant and young, if anyone was reading these books
>expecting there to be anything either explicitly or implicitly sexual
>people who respect each other, and there is no sex in them, though
>there is some (very vanilla and non-graphic) in :Exile's Gate:, the
>fourth one.
>
>much basis) is wrong and the word just means "a strong female character"
>or I think you're mistaken.
There is a recurring thread on SSB, about whether BDSM is sexual or not.
The consensus appears to be: it depends. For some it is. For others, the
rush is in the wielding of power or submitting to it itself. I do suspect
that the sex and power drives of humans are kinda intertwined;
nevertheless, femdom (as, for example, typified by the postings of Akasha
on SSB) can be pretty disjoint from explicit sexuality. Certainly the
*exercise* of power can be.
Yes, Morgaine and Vanye respect each other. So do most good D/s couples.
We have at least one poster on SSB who is explicitly in an asexual M/m
relationship.
Just because they aren't bumping wabbily bits, doesn't mean it's not
power exchange.
-^-^spectrum-^^- spec...@magenta.com Cupcake #697
Tales of the ASBWorld: http://magenta.com/lmnop/users/spectrum/index.html
The description of Pervhome and the Guestbook are there also.
"Erotic is when you use a feather,
kinky is when you use the whole chicken." - C. Haynes.
Perverted is chicken soup for dinner guests the next day.
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Douglas Reay (DONT.SPA...@beyond2000.co.uk) wrote:
> WARNING: this thread is now crossposted to rec.arts.sf.written
> as well as soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm where it originated.
>
> >
> > So much of sci fi treats women as subs/slaves/whip"ees" that it's
> > rarely interested me
> [ ...snip...]
>
>
> If you allow SF to include fantasy there are also
> "Sword-Singer" by Jennifer Roberson (book 2 of a series)
> "Finder" by Emma Bull
>
> by a male author that would be of interest to femdoms?
Well... Quite a few chunks of Philip Jose Farmer's _The Image of the
Beast_ would be "of interest to femdom", I suppose. Be forewarned, though,
that it's rather violent :)
--
Ahasuerus
FAQs:
how to write SF --> http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb/writing.html
the Wandering Jew --> http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb/twj.html
r.a.sf.written --> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4824/sf-written.htm
The Liaden Universe - to be announced
Conrad Hodson
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, John Moreno wrote:
>
> But, there's a rape scene in one of the F.M. Busby's book - the one
> where the lead character is a black female. Strong female lead, but
> IIRC that's the only gal raping a guy in the book - although it's
> implied that there has been lesbian rape, but that takes place
> off-stage.
That novel, BTW, is _Zelde M'Tana_, Dell, 1980. A good read, too.
Conrad Hodson
Arrow Blue
John Moreno wrote:
> Well, I wasn't paying to much attention to the subject - and I it was a
> abbreviation for female-fandom?
Femdom - female domme or dominatrix as in a domination/submission
relationship. Would probably be looking for novels that emphasized a
woman in power.
Arrow
Richard Shetron
In article <346d8eee...@news.concentric.net>,
Sean Malloy <mal...@concentric.net> wrote:
>mul...@wizvax.wizvax.net (Richard Shetron) wrote:
>>Things that come to mind that include strong female characters (not
>>bdsm related):
>
>
>Amazon Troopers from _Tunnel in the Sky_, Wyoming Knott and Hazel
>Meade from _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ -- you can make a sizeable
>list.
I didn't want to, just wanted to mention and indicate there is a
significant difference between the movie and the book for starship
troopers.
John Moreno
In rec.arts.sf.written Arrow Blue <Arro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
] John Moreno wrote:
]
] > Well, I wasn't paying to much attention to the subject - and I it
] > was a abbreviation for female-fandom?
Well John, learn to type. I mean "I THOUGHT it was..."
] Femdom - female domme or dominatrix as in a domination/submission
] relationship. Would probably be looking for novels that emphasized a
] woman in power.
That was obvious once I read Jo's message. Of course it was obvious
before and I somehow missed it. To quote Lou C. "I've been a BAAAAD
boy" - not quite correct, but somehow appropriate.
--
John Moreno
Joshua Jasper
In article <19971113135...@roxboro-180.interpath.net>,
Sinboy
John Moreno
In rec.arts.sf.written Joshua Jasper <sin...@netcom.com> wrote:
No thanks, not unless you are planning on doing it by way of tall,
leggy, female.
--
John Moreno
Arrow Blue
(grin) Are you volunteering to be *corrected*?
Arrow
(tall, leggy and female)
Joshua Jasper
In article <19971113180...@roxboro-180.interpath.net>,
John Moreno <phe...@interpath.com> wrote:
>In rec.arts.sf.written Joshua Jasper <sin...@netcom.com> wrote:
>
>] John Moreno <phe...@interpath.com> wrote:
>] >In rec.arts.sf.written Arrow Blue <Arro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>] >
>] >] John Moreno wrote:
>] >]
>] >] > Well, I wasn't paying to much attention to the subject - and I it
>] >] > was a abbreviation for female-fandom?
>] >
>] >Well John, learn to type. I mean "I THOUGHT it was..."
>] >
>] >] Femdom - female domme or dominatrix as in a domination/submission
>] >] relationship. Would probably be looking for novels that emphasized
>] >] a woman in power.
>] >
>] >That was obvious once I read Jo's message. Of course it was obvious
>] >before and I somehow missed it. To quote Lou C. "I've been a BAAAAD
>] >boy" - not quite correct, but somehow appropriate.
>]
>] I'll give ya *correction*. C'mere, now...
>
>No thanks, not unless you are planning on doing it by way of tall,
>leggy, female.
How d'ya know I'm *not* a tall leggy female, at least some of the
time...
Sinboy
Dan Goodman
Lawrence Janifer: You Sane Men/Bloodworld
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
Arrow Blue
John Moreno wrote:
>
> In rec.arts.sf.written Arrow Blue <Arro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> ] John Moreno wrote:
> ] >
> ] >
> ] > ] John Moreno <phe...@interpath.com> wrote:
> ] > ] >In rec.arts.sf.written Arrow Blue <Arro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> ] > ] >
> ] > ] >] John Moreno wrote:
> ] > ] >]
> ] > ] >] > Well, I wasn't paying to much attention to the subject - and
> ] > ] >] > I it was a abbreviation for female-fandom?
> ] > ] >
> ] > ] >Well John, learn to type. I mean "I THOUGHT it was..."
> ] > ] >
> ] > ] >] Femdom - female domme or dominatrix as in a
> ] > ] >] domination/submission relationship. Would probably be looking
> ] > ] >] for novels that emphasized a woman in power.
> ] > ] >
> ] > ] >That was obvious once I read Jo's message. Of course it was
> ] > ] >obvious before and I somehow missed it. To quote Lou C. "I've
> ] > ] >been a BAAAAD boy" - not quite correct, but somehow appropriate.
> ] > ]
> ] > ] I'll give ya *correction*. C'mere, now...
> ] >
> ] > No thanks, not unless you are planning on doing it by way of tall,
> ] > leggy, female.
> ]
> ] (grin) Are you volunteering to be *corrected*?
> ]
> ] Arrow
> ] (tall, leggy and female)
>
> a little confusing. But, hey, I'm willing to learn.
>
> --
> John Moreno
How delicious... confused, yet willing.
Arrow
Leonard Erickson
aha...@clark.net (Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew) writes:
> Well... Quite a few chunks of Philip Jose Farmer's _The Image of the
> Beast_ would be "of interest to femdom", I suppose. Be forewarned, though,
> that it's rather violent :)
I've handed it to a few vanilla friends *without* warning them. They
usually turn green about the point where the first chapter "climaxes".
:-)
--
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
sha...@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leo...@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
Joy Hilbert
Leonard Erickson writes
>I've handed it to a few vanilla friends *without* warning them. They
>usually turn green about the point where the first chapter "climaxes".
>:-)
>
Farmer because I never know when he's going to come up with some
nauseating non-con torture scene.
--
Joy Hilbert
Roberta and Craig Becker
In keeping with the Subject: line, Anne Rice/Rocqulaire's (sp?)
_Beauty_ books easily qualify as Fantasy...and after awhile I
began to think of them as SF, because of the utterly alien nature
of the societies portrayed.
Craig
--
-- Craig Becker bec...@bga.com http://www.bga.com/~beckers Austin, TX USA --
-- HTML Consulting Services - http://www.bga.com/~beckers/craig/tmr.html --
Joshua Jasper
In article <3469e...@news.wizvax.net>,
Richard Shetron <mul...@wizvax.wizvax.net> wrote:
>Things that come to mind that include strong female characters (not
>bdsm related):
>
>
>David Weber's Honor Harrington series
>
>Indirectly, perhaps, Joe Haldeman's Forever War (Everyone fights)
>
>
>The older work is has a fair amount of bdsm type stuff in it.
>
>Simon R. Green, the cruiser Shenendahoa stories (Hope I got the reference
>right, my books are buried behind wizvax.net equipment.)
Fritz Lieber, Mercedes Lackey. Bolth with BDSM, Fritz seems to like it,
Mercedes seems to use it as a method of making her baddys more evil,
although occasionaly the protagonists will engage in a little bondage,
sadism (or massochism) and discipline are often portayed as realy evil
(The White Griffon).
Sinboy
John Moreno
In rec.arts.sf.written Joshua Jasper <sin...@netcom.com> wrote:
] John Moreno <phe...@interpath.com> wrote:
-snip-
] >Let's just say, I don't find the idea totally unattractive, but
] >instead a little confusing. But, hey, I'm willing to learn.
] >
] Try readon The Lady Slings The Booze by Spider Robinson for a
] decent explanation of what's involved mentaly.
I have this isn't why, but the books about the House are my least
favorite Robinson books - in fact they kinda tick me off.
As for the B&D explaination - I remember that one was given, but not
what it was.
--
John Moreno
Mary K. Kuhner
My husband and I picked through our selves and found a couple of
examples of female-dominant BDSM (or close to it):
Oceaxe in _A Voyage To Arcturus_ by David Lindsay
Vi'ya in _The Phoenix In Flight_ and sequels, by Smith and
Trowbridge
Gwen in _Drakon_ by SM Stirling
a character in _Tigana_ by GK Kay: I don't remember her name,
both my husband and I called her "the vixen duchess"
Also, the Faerie Queen in Tam Lin variants is often quite a
dominatrix: I think this features (at least off stage) in
Pamela Dean's novel and in _The Many-Colored Land_, and probably
elsewhere. More than mortal man can take, and all tht.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
John Moreno
In rec.arts.sf.written Arrow Blue <Arro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
] John Moreno wrote:
] >
] > In rec.arts.sf.written Arrow Blue <Arro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
] >
-snip-
] > ] (grin) Are you volunteering to be *corrected*?
] > ]
] > ] Arrow
] > ] (tall, leggy and female)
] >
] > Let's just say, I don't find the idea totally unattractive, but
] > instead a little confusing. But, hey, I'm willing to learn.
]
] How delicious... confused, yet willing.
Although this is kinda fun it's not really on topic for rasfw and I
don't read ssbd - which is where I get the feeling you are posting from
(wonder why?).
So, with a little regret, I'm going to let this die out.
--
John Moreno
John Moreno
[Followup's set.]
In rec.arts.sf.written Joshua Jasper <sin...@netcom.com> wrote:
] John Moreno <phe...@interpath.com> wrote:
] >In rec.arts.sf.written Joshua Jasper <sin...@netcom.com> wrote:
] >
] >] John Moreno <phe...@interpath.com> wrote:
] >-snip-
] >] >Let's just say, I don't find the idea totally unattractive, but
] >] >instead a little confusing. But, hey, I'm willing to learn.
] >] >
] >] Try readon The Lady Slings The Booze by Spider Robinson for a
] >] decent explanation of what's involved mentaly.
] >
] >I have this isn't why, but the books about the House are my least
] >favorite Robinson books - in fact they kinda tick me off.
]
] Hmm, yeah, they were a bit weak. I think that Callahan's Legacy
] gets things going back in the right direction, though.
Well what I disliked was the "there are something Man isn't meant to
know, or isn't ready to handle". I view destroying knowledge in the
harshest possible light. This was in both books, and in my opinion
ruins them.
--
John Moreno
Joshua Jasper
In article <19971115154...@roxboro-162.interpath.net>,
you've got to consider that the theory was that too much tampering with
time in general was a bad thing. The mind controll and time slowing
devices could have been replicated or improved on by Mike and Sally.
Sinboy
Geoffrey C Marshall
Arrow Blue wrote:
>
> John Moreno wrote:
> >
> > In rec.arts.sf.written Arrow Blue <Arro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > ] >
> > ] > In rec.arts.sf.written Joshua Jasper <sin...@netcom.com> wrote:
> > ] >
> > ] > ] John Moreno <phe...@interpath.com> wrote:
> > ] > ] >
> > ] > ] >] John Moreno wrote:
> > ] > ] >] > Well, I wasn't paying to much attention to the subject - and
> > ] > ] >] > I it was a abbreviation for female-fandom?
> > ] > ] >
> > ] > ] >Well John, learn to type. I mean "I THOUGHT it was..."
> > ] > ] >
> > ] > ] >] Femdom - female domme or dominatrix as in a
> > ] > ] >] domination/submission relationship. Would probably be looking
> > ] > ] >] for novels that emphasized a woman in power.
> > ] > ] >
> > ] > ] >That was obvious once I read Jo's message. Of course it was
> > ] > ] >obvious before and I somehow missed it. To quote Lou C. "I've
> > ] > ] >been a BAAAAD boy" - not quite correct, but somehow appropriate.
> > ] > ]
> > ] > ] I'll give ya *correction*. C'mere, now...
> > ] >
> > ] > No thanks, not unless you are planning on doing it by way of tall,
> > ] > leggy, female.
> > ] >
> > ]
> > ]
> > ] Arrow
> > ] (tall, leggy and female)
> >
> > a little confusing. But, hey, I'm willing to learn.
> >
> > John Moreno
>
> How delicious... confused, yet willing.
>
I think you'll straighten him out.
He'll prbably feel all bent up though.
Geoff...
Elf Sternberg
In article <B08EBD46...@calmeilles.demon.co.uk>
matthew....@guardian.co.uk (Matthew Malthouse) writes:
>ObBDSM: "2029" by Townsend. Every time I pick it up I find something else
>more interesting to read.
Isn't that "2069"? That's what I have on my shelf. To be
honest, I find that one terribly boring and trite.
My favorite BDSM book series has to be Karl Hansen's "Dream
Games" and "War Games" books. Published in the mid-70's, these
books featured interspecies sex, orgies, sadomasochism, sex murder,
and the ever-popular pedodroids. I've never been able to find
anything else by the same author.
Elf !!!
--
Elf Sternberg (e...@halcyon.com) / http://www.halcyon.com/elf
The God whom science recognizes must be a God of universal laws
exclusively, a God who does a wholesale, not a retail business.
He cannot accomodate His processes to the convenience of individuals.
- William James, The Variety of Religious Experience, 1902
PMccutc103
sin...@netcom.com (Joshua Jasper) wrote:
> How d'ya know I'm *not* a tall leggy female, at least some of the
>time...
Sinboy, I realize that this may strike you as overly
provincial, but many lovers of tall, leggy, females insist
that the females be female on a full-time basis.
________________________
Pete McCutchen
JBL
In article <64nn04$853$1...@brokaw.wa.com>,
e...@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) wrote:
> My favorite BDSM book series has to be Karl Hansen's "Dream
>Games" and "War Games" books. Published in the mid-70's, these
>books featured interspecies sex, orgies, sadomasochism, sex murder,
>and the ever-popular pedodroids. I've never been able to find
>anything else by the same author.
>
> Elf !!!
>
Ah, Dr. Pepper!!
Yeah, never did find anything else by him...a doctor I think.
I read two books, where there any more?
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Elf Sternberg (e...@halcyon.com) wrote:
> matthew....@guardian.co.uk (Matthew Malthouse) writes:
>
> >ObBDSM: "2029" by Townsend. Every time I pick it up I find something else
> >more interesting to read.
>
> Isn't that "2069"? That's what I have on my shelf. To be
It's _2069_, which shouldn't be terribly surprising considering that it
was published in 1969 :)
> honest, I find that one terribly boring and trite.
For those whose mileage varied, Larry Townsend wrote two sequels, _2069+1_
and _2069+2_, both published in 1970.
> My favorite BDSM book series has to be Karl Hansen's "Dream
> Games"
1985, shorter version first published in _Omni_ in 1985, collected in _The
Omni Book of Science Fiction #7_ (1989).
> and "War Games"
1981, shorter version published as "Sergeant Pepper" in _The Berkley
Showcase Vol. 1_ (1980)
> books. Published in the mid-70's, these books featured interspecies sex,
> orgies, sadomasochism, sex murder, and the ever-popular pedodroids. I've
> never been able to find anything else by the same author.
There were supposed to be more Hybrid books, but the series (and Hansen's
career as a writer) appear to be dead at this point. OTOH, his short
fiction, some of which was used in his two novels, can be found in:
"The Ballad of Lady Blue" in _Chrysalis 9_ (1981)
"The Burden of Their Song" in _Chrysalis 6_ (1980)
"Doll's Eyes" in _The Berkley Showcase Vol. 2_ (1980)
"Dragon's Teeth" in _Chrysalis 3_ (1978)
"Forests of Night" in _Chrysalis 7_ (1980)
"Portrait for a Blind Man" in _Chrysalis 5_ (1979)
"A Red, White and Blue Fourth of July" in _2076: The American
Tricentennial_ (1977)
"The Sailor Who Fell From Grace With the Void" in _The Berkley Showcase
Vol. 5_ (1982)
"Wires" in _Chrysalis 4_ (1979)
ObSF/BDSM: Lin Carter's _Tara of the Twilight_ (1979), vol. 1 in a
projected (but never completed) series. Plenty of mostly non-consensual
stuff and rape, pedophilia and homoeroticism, torture and non-humanoid
sex, sword and sorcery, sexual murder and general mayhem, etc, but little
femdom content and not very well written (hey, it was Carter, what do you
expect? :-\ )
Interestingly enough, soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm and rec.arts.sf.written
appear to be getting along quite well. Maybe we should hang out together
more :)
Douglas Reay
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew wrote:
>
> ObSF/BDSM: Lin Carter's _Tara of the Twilight_ (1979), vol. 1 in a
> projected (but never completed) series. Plenty of mostly non-consensual
> stuff and rape, pedophilia and homoeroticism, torture and non-humanoid
> sex, sword and sorcery, sexual murder and general mayhem, etc, but little
> femdom content and not very well written (hey, it was Carter, what do you
> expect? :-\ )
>
> Interestingly enough, soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm and rec.arts.sf.written
> appear to be getting along quite well.
Maybe because both topics encourage tolerance and investigating new
things?
Do you suppose the way SF asks you to suspend disbelief about things
like
faster than light travel in aid of a star spanning plot on a human
timescale
is similar to the way in which BDSM fiction often leaves out various
details
of reality that limit the reach of fantasy?
> Maybe we should hang out together more :)
>
What, you mean start a discussion on whether John Norman's Gor novels
are
more hated in ssbb for their terrible BDSM than they are in rasfw for
their
terrible SF content? *grin*
At a guess I'd say there are a greater percentage of bad BDSM writers,
but
there are more bad SF writers.
Pallando
--
"Take me to your Lieda" . "Leader?" . "No ma'm, we're alien
musicians."
David Dyer-Bennet
aha...@clark.net (Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew) writes:
>The thing that we've never been able to understand on r.a.sf.w is why
>[John Norman] was so popular for so many years. The first ~5 books in
>the series read like a fairly competent (if unremarkable) Burroughs
>pastiche, then, in the 70's, he changed publishers and became the
>main purveyor of planetary romances with a heavy dose of BDSM. If,
>apparently, he appealed neither to the hard core (no pun intended) SF
>readers nor to the BDSM audience, then how did he manage to sell as
>many books as he did? Did he tap into some new, non-traditional
>segment of the market, as seems likely? Or was it something else?
He was about the only even vaguely BDSM material available to most
teenagers at that time. Also, while certainly much of the BDSM
community despises the books for various good reasons, I know a
surprising number of people who have at least a fond tolerance for
them.
--
David Dyer-Bennet d...@ddb.com
Me: http://www.ddb.com/~ddb (photos, sf)
Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon
Join the 20th century before it's too late!
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Douglas Reay (DONT.SPA...@beyond2000.co.uk) wrote:
> Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew wrote: [snip]
> > Interestingly enough, soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm and
> > rec.arts.sf.written appear to be getting along quite well.
>
> Maybe because both topics encourage tolerance and investigating new
> things?
Well... it's been argued that SF ("sf" in "r.a.sf.written" stands for
"speculative fiction", i.e. "science fiction+fantasy") readers are rather
conservative in their preferences. OTOH, there are so many different types
of SF and, consequently, SF readers that it's really hard to come up with
a universally valid characterization.
As far as the apparent tolerance that the two groups seem to have for each
other, well, the first thing that comes to mind is that the SF world and
the BDSM world are both self-described ghettos and, therefore, may
instinctively regard the other group as an ally.
> Do you suppose the way SF asks you to suspend disbelief about things like
> faster than light travel in aid of a star spanning plot on a human timescale
> is similar to the way in which BDSM fiction often leaves out various details
> of reality that limit the reach of fantasy?
"Suspension of disbelief" (one way or the other) is, indeed, a common
characteristic of the two genres [keeping in mind that my knowledge of the
BDSM field is rather limited] but I think it's a fairly superficial
similarity. Sure, both SF and BDSM readers have learned to live without
different literary elements that are considered sine qu non by the
mainstream, but that's because we are mostly interested in the "core
experience" of our respective genre, be it conceptual breakthroughs or
alien milieus in SF or the "BDSM experience(s)" in BDSM. And that "core
experience" is arguably quite different.
> > Maybe we should hang out together more :)
> >
> What, you mean start a discussion on whether John Norman's Gor novels
> are more hated in ssbb for their terrible BDSM than they are in rasfw for
> their terrible SF content? *grin*
The thing that we've never been able to understand on r.a.sf.w is why he
was so popular for so many years. The first ~5 books in the series read
like a fairly competent (if unremarkable) Burroughs pastiche, then, in the
70's, he changed publishers and became the main purveyor of planetary
romances with a heavy dose of BDSM. If, apparently, he appealed neither to
the hard core (no pun intended) SF readers nor to the BDSM audience, then
how did he manage to sell as many books as he did? Did he tap into some
new, non-traditional segment of the market, as seems likely? Or was it
something else?
> At a guess I'd say there are a greater percentage of bad BDSM writers,
> but there are more bad SF writers.
This is a tricky question because of the proliferation of pseudonyms in
both genres, especially BDSM.
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <64qmfq$h...@clarknet.clark.net>,
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew <aha...@clark.net> wrote:
>Douglas Reay (DONT.SPA...@beyond2000.co.uk) wrote:
>> Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew wrote: [snip]
>> > Interestingly enough, soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm and
>> > rec.arts.sf.written appear to be getting along quite well.
>>
>> Maybe because both topics encourage tolerance and investigating new
>> things?
>
both are fairly intellectual.
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
October '96 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Chmeee
> >the series read like a fairly competent (if unremarkable) Burroughs
> >pastiche, then, in the 70's, he changed publishers and became the
> >main purveyor of planetary romances with a heavy dose of BDSM. If,
> >apparently, he appealed neither to the hard core (no pun intended) SF
> >readers nor to the BDSM audience, then how did he manage to sell as
> >many books as he did? Did he tap into some new, non-traditional
> >segment of the market, as seems likely? Or was it something else?
>
> teenagers at that time. Also, while certainly much of the BDSM
> community despises the books for various good reasons, I know a
> surprising number of people who have at least a fond tolerance for
> them.
I agree with the point regarding availability to teenagers -
many libraries had them on hand because they assumed they
were just SF/fantasy.
A few month ago a female submissive with whom I correspond
related to me how she - as a thirteen-year-old - encountered
"Slave Girl of Gor" in her school library, and how she kept
sneaking looks at it and eventually worked up the nerve to
check out and read it.
And at that age you're not usually the best judge of writing -
I recollect that when I was twelve I actually enjoyed Fred
Hoyle's fiction.
I encountered the Gor books as a freshman in college. By
then I could discern good writing from bad, but was so
taken with the quasi-BDSM elements, I managed to read four
or five of them before I said, "Enough of this crap!"
------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am stranger than you think" - Chmeee
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <coOQXFC00...@andrew.cmu.edu>,
Carrie A Schutrick <ca...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>Male authors? John Varley, "The Satellite/The Magician/The Demon" (i
>>guess these are the original titels). Featuring really strong women as
>>the heroes, and a lesbian love story (hi Philip!) as well. One of my
>>all-time favourites.
>
> Titan, Wizard, and Demon, actually. I don't know as those are
>particularly "of interest to femdoms," however, since the male
>characters tend to be just as strong, in different ways.
>
_Drakon_ by S.M. Stirling might qualify.
Also, _The Annals of Klepsis_ by R.A.Lafferty has some little
bits of bdsm.
Joshua Jasper
In article <64qmfq$h...@clarknet.clark.net>,
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew <aha...@clark.net> wrote:
>Douglas Reay (DONT.SPA...@beyond2000.co.uk) wrote:
>> Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew wrote: [snip]
>> > Interestingly enough, soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm and
>> > rec.arts.sf.written appear to be getting along quite well.
>>
>> Maybe because both topics encourage tolerance and investigating new
>> things?
>
>"speculative fiction", i.e. "science fiction+fantasy") readers are rather
>conservative in their preferences. OTOH, there are so many different types
>of SF and, consequently, SF readers that it's really hard to come up with
>a universally valid characterization.
>
>As far as the apparent tolerance that the two groups seem to have for each
>other, well, the first thing that comes to mind is that the SF world and
>the BDSM world are both self-described ghettos and, therefore, may
>instinctively regard the other group as an ally.
Nah, it's more than that. Alot of BDSM folk are into SF/F. It's
just one of those wierd crossoover things. Everyone I've ever met who's
been into BDSM has a thing for SF/F. Wierd but true.
>
>> Do you suppose the way SF asks you to suspend disbelief about things like
>> faster than light travel in aid of a star spanning plot on a human timescale
>> is similar to the way in which BDSM fiction often leaves out various details
>> of reality that limit the reach of fantasy?
>
>"Suspension of disbelief" (one way or the other) is, indeed, a common
>characteristic of the two genres [keeping in mind that my knowledge of the
>BDSM field is rather limited] but I think it's a fairly superficial
>similarity. Sure, both SF and BDSM readers have learned to live without
>different literary elements that are considered sine qu non by the
>mainstream, but that's because we are mostly interested in the "core
>experience" of our respective genre, be it conceptual breakthroughs or
>alien milieus in SF or the "BDSM experience(s)" in BDSM. And that "core
>experience" is arguably quite different.
If you've got "rather limited" knowledge of BDSM, how do you know
they are all that differnt?
Sinboy
Anthony Hilbert
Craig Becker writes
>In keeping with the Subject: line, Anne Rice/Rocqulaire's (sp?)
>_Beauty_ books easily qualify as Fantasy...and after awhile I
>began to think of them as SF, because of the utterly alien nature
>of the societies portrayed.
They would fit comfortably into the class of "alternative universe"
stories. An alternative Middle Ages with a culture of sensuality
instead of sexual repression.
--
Anthony Hilbert
"He is a barbarian, and believes that the customs of his tribe are the
laws of Nature." - George Bernard Shaw: Caesar & Cleopatra
Anthony Hilbert
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew writes
>Interestingly enough, soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm and rec.arts.sf.written
>more :)
Well, the origin of this thread was the observation that the two
interests have a lot of fans in common. I should know :->
--
Anthony Hilbert
pervefan
Geoffrey C Marshall
Jo Walton wrote:
>
> In article <64oe9r$h...@camel19.mindspring.com>
> jbo...@mindspring.com "John Boston" writes:
>
> > In article <64o1lr$i...@clarknet.clark.net>, aha...@clark.net says...
> >
> > >Interestingly enough, soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm and
> > rec.arts.sf.written
> > >appear to be getting along quite well. Maybe we should hang out
> > together
> > >more :)
> >
>
> Because otherwise we'll hang separately?
>
> I've been resisting for _days_ pointing out that I corrected John Moreno
> quite sufficiently even though I'm neither tall nor leggy...
Damn. Did you have to tell me that ?
Geoff...
[Looks around frantically muttering "Where is safe...where is safe...]
David G. Bell
> aha...@clark.net (Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew) writes:
>
> >The thing that we've never been able to understand on r.a.sf.w is why
> >[John Norman] was so popular for so many years. The first ~5 books in
> >the series read like a fairly competent (if unremarkable) Burroughs
> >pastiche, then, in the 70's, he changed publishers and became the
> >main purveyor of planetary romances with a heavy dose of BDSM. If,
> >apparently, he appealed neither to the hard core (no pun intended) SF
> >readers nor to the BDSM audience, then how did he manage to sell as
> >many books as he did? Did he tap into some new, non-traditional
> >segment of the market, as seems likely? Or was it something else?
>
> He was about the only even vaguely BDSM material available to most
> teenagers at that time. Also, while certainly much of the BDSM
> community despises the books for various good reasons, I know a
> surprising number of people who have at least a fond tolerance for
> them.
Yes, I remember a holiday near Keswick, and a long wet day, and the
combination of post-Lensman E.E. Smith and John Norman....
Later, I decided that I'd rather be an E.E. Smith hero, in that, however
badly he depicted the characters, the women were beautiful and
_intelligent_. Plus, a DeLameter and GP Armor seems to have the edge on
a sword and loincloth.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
Joshua Jasper (sin...@netcom.com) wrote: [snip]
> Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew <aha...@clark.net> wrote:
> >As far as the apparent tolerance that the two groups seem to have for each
> >other, well, the first thing that comes to mind is that the SF world and
> >the BDSM world are both self-described ghettos and, therefore, may
> >instinctively regard the other group as an ally.
>
> Nah, it's more than that. Alot of BDSM folk are into SF/F. It's
> just one of those wierd crossoover things. Everyone I've ever met who's
> been into BDSM has a thing for SF/F. Wierd but true.
...which may very well explain why s.s.b-b didn't have a problem with
r.a.sf.written, but it takes two to tango and, considering that not all SF
readers are into BDSM :) the question is still open. Not that I think that
we are likely to come to a universally agreed upon conclusion, but arguing
about it can be fun, no? :-)
> >"Suspension of disbelief" (one way or the other) is, indeed, a common
> >characteristic of the two genres [keeping in mind that my knowledge of the
> >BDSM field is rather limited] but I think it's a fairly superficial
> >similarity. Sure, both SF and BDSM readers have learned to live without
> >different literary elements that are considered sine qu non by the
> >mainstream, but that's because we are mostly interested in the "core
> >experience" of our respective genre, be it conceptual breakthroughs or
> >alien milieus in SF or the "BDSM experience(s)" in BDSM. And that "core
> >experience" is arguably quite different.
>
> If you've got "rather limited" knowledge of BDSM, how do you know
> they are all that differnt?
Oh, I could be wrong, of course, it's just that the quintessential science
fiction experience has been often defined in terms of "conceptual
breakthrough", "transcendence", etc, (you know, "ruling the sevagram" :-)
and I have never seen anything similar in the BDSM field. Granted, one can
use science fiction for other purposes, and fantasy is something else
again, but that's where the roots of the genre are. I suppose SF may have
become more attractive to other folks over the last 20-30 years as it
diversified, though.
ObSF/BDSM: _Harsh Mistress_ was a particularly misleding name for a
science fiction magazine :-)
P.S. I am leaving "fandom(s)" out of this discussion as it would open a
whole different can of worms.
Geoffrey C Marshall
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew wrote:
>
> characteristic of the two genres [keeping in mind that my knowledge of the
> BDSM field is rather limited] but I think it's a fairly superficial
> similarity. Sure, both SF and BDSM readers have learned to live without
> different literary elements that are considered sine qu non by the
> mainstream, but that's because we are mostly interested in the "core
> experience" of our respective genre, be it conceptual breakthroughs or
> alien milieus in SF or the "BDSM experience(s)" in BDSM. And that "core
> experience" is arguably quite different.
>
having read anything BDSM (and the SM frightens me a bit!)
or even been aware of such "specialist" literature.
So where do I start ? What should I read to "find the
flavour", AND how do I get it without having my local
librarian (who lives across the road) raise her
eyebrows ?
Geoff...
w.b...@dojo.cts.com
In some post someone was asking about BDSM and SF.
In article <64je07$pot$1...@nntp5.u.washington.edu>,
mkku...@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) wrote:
>
> My husband and I picked through our selves and found a couple of
> examples of female-dominant BDSM (or close to it):
>
<snip>
There is always, of course, "Wizards First Rule" by Terry Goodkind. It's
not particularly well written, but Goodkind is IMO a better writer than
John Norman. (I don't think that's very hard to do.)
Colin Kapp has a number of books which have BDSM aspects and male
bottoms/female tops, try Ion War in particular. The gimmick in Ion War
is that soldiers are shanghaied into a para-ion corps where they have to
be "trained" to handle extreme pain (by a female drill seargent
equivalent). See also the Cageworld series.
Robert Jordan has a fair amount of somewhat low key BDSM in the Wheel of
Time series, one is liable to find either gender on top and/or switching.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Douglas Reay
Frites <fri...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Geoffrey C Marshall <co...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>> Allright, peoples, I have to confess to not only never
>> having read anything BDSM (and the SM frightens me a bit!)
>> or even been aware of such "specialist" literature.
>>
>> So where do I start ? What should I read to "find the
>> flavour", AND how do I get it without having my local
>> librarian (who lives across the road) raise her
>> eyebrows ?
>
> to get a taste of BDSM. Circlet Press specializes
> in "erotic SF", which often includes BDSM.
> The other nice thing is that Circlet Press attends
> many SF cons, taking a room on the party floor.
> If you visit their party, you can look over their
> books to see if anything interests you.
> They also have web pages:
> their catalog on
> http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/circlet/catalog.html
> where they plan to be on
> http://www.apocalypse.org/pub/u/ctan/events.html
If you want to avoid librarians, there is some already
on the net, such as Elf Sternberg's Journals:
http://www.halcyon.com/elf/journals/
Douglas
--
Seen in TV Guide, describing the Star Trek episode _Amok_Time_:
"Mr. Spock succumbs to a powerful mating urge and
nearly kills Captain Kirk."
Douglas Reay
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew wrote:
>
> > Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew <aha...@clark.net> wrote:
> > >As far as the apparent tolerance that the two groups seem to have for each
> > >other, well, the first thing that comes to mind is that the SF world and
> > >the BDSM world are both self-described ghettos and, therefore, may
> > >instinctively regard the other group as an ally.
> >
> > Nah, it's more than that. Alot of BDSM folk are into SF/F. It's
> > just one of those wierd crossoover things. Everyone I've ever met who's
> > been into BDSM has a thing for SF/F. Wierd but true.
>
> ...which may very well explain why s.s.b-b didn't have a problem with
> r.a.sf.written, but it takes two to tango and, considering that not all SF
> readers are into BDSM :) the question is still open.
Perhaps there are more barriers to finding out about BDSM. How many SF lovers
who are "not into BDSM" might like it if they had had the opertunity to try
it in a 'fan' like atmosphere such as Black Rose, rather than the commercial
images they are more likely to first encounter?
> Not that I think that we are likely to come to a universally agreed upon
> conclusion, but arguing about it can be fun, no? :-)
>
It is universally agreed that there are no universally agreed conclusions.
PROOF:
Ugol's Law states however obscure your fetish, someone shares it.
You can make a fetish from the negation of any conclusion.
> > >"Suspension of disbelief" (one way or the other) is, indeed, a common
> > >characteristic of the two genres [keeping in mind that my knowledge of the
> > >BDSM field is rather limited] but I think it's a fairly superficial
> > >similarity. Sure, both SF and BDSM readers have learned to live without
> > >different literary elements that are considered sine qu non by the
> > >mainstream, but that's because we are mostly interested in the "core
> > >experience" of our respective genre, be it conceptual breakthroughs or
> > >alien milieus in SF or the "BDSM experience(s)" in BDSM. And that "core
> > >experience" is arguably quite different.
> >
> > If you've got "rather limited" knowledge of BDSM, how do you know
> > they are all that differnt?
>
> Oh, I could be wrong, of course, it's just that the quintessential science
> fiction experience has been often defined in terms of "conceptual
> breakthrough", "transcendence", etc, (you know, "ruling the sevagram" :-)
> and I have never seen anything similar in the BDSM field. Granted, one can
> use science fiction for other purposes, and fantasy is something else
> again, but that's where the roots of the genre are. I suppose SF may have
> become more attractive to other folks over the last 20-30 years as it
> diversified, though.
>
Conceptual breakthroughs in BDSM tend to be more in the area of identity
and relationships. Psychological Indiana Joneses carry whips too. *grin*
> P.S. I am leaving "fandom(s)" out of this discussion as it would open a
> whole different can of worms.
Come to think of it, Orson Scott Card's "Wyrms" contains attempts at millenial
long control of an entire planet full of humans for the sole purpose of having
sex with a princess.
Douglas
--
The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
"Eureka!" but "That's funny ..." -- Asimov
NBarnes
Douglas Reay wrote:
> Seen in TV Guide, describing the Star Trek episode _Amok_Time_:
> "Mr. Spock succumbs to a powerful mating urge and
> nearly kills Captain Kirk."
*breaks down, giggling furiously* I _saw_ that in TV Guide, and
didn't think anything of it. I suppose context is everything, eh?
Given all those slash stories about those two.... *breaks back down
and almost falls out of chair*
NBarnes
Sion Arrowsmith
In article <64tblg$e...@clarknet.clark.net>,
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew <aha...@clark.net> wrote:
>Joshua Jasper (sin...@netcom.com) wrote: [snip]
>> just one of those wierd crossoover things. Everyone I've ever met who's
>> been into BDSM has a thing for SF/F. Wierd but true.
>...which may very well explain why s.s.b-b didn't have a problem with
>r.a.sf.written, but it takes two to tango and, considering that not all SF
>readers are into BDSM :) the question is still open.
>P.S. I am leaving "fandom(s)" out of this discussion as it would open a
>whole different can of worms.
Taking there to be no play on the word "fandom" -- isn't this
precisely what is so fascinating? It's not about similarities or
congruities between the literature, but between the people and
their communities. SF fandom derives from the literature, BDSM
literature derives from the ... whatever you want to call it, as
does the community and (sub)culture. The communities occupy the
same space in each heirarchy, the literature does not. I'm not
quite sure what the point here is, but I'm sure it's worth
making.
Anyway, naive theory for why non-BDSM fans are tolerant --
they're used to the concept of dealing with "alien" cultures,
and don't freak out when confronted by people/behaviour which
appears to be such, in the way that "normal" people might.
--
\S -- si...@chiark.greenend.org.uk -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/
___ | Spot the sleevenotes #9: | 88% of clowns
\X/ | "This album is dedicated to Glastonbury '97 | never fall
<*> | and all who sailed in her..." | in love
Kirsten M. Berry
Didja hear what Douglas Reay <DONT.SPA...@beyond2000.co.uk>
said?
}If you want to avoid librarians, there is some already
}on the net, such as Elf Sternberg's Journals:
}
} http://www.halcyon.com/elf/journals/
Hey - if you're going to Elf's page, don't limit yourself to the
Journal Entries.... While they're certainly the stories most
appropriate to this thread (and I could go on about them for pages),
all of his erotica is extremely well-crafted, and the resources he
offers up (Your Rights & The Police, Seattle S&M Resources) are
thorough. I've had this page bookmarked since I was a neo-perv, and
continue to find useful material therein.
--
Kirsten M. Berry ki...@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~kirib/
<*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*> <*>
"Sometimes life throws me curves. And sometimes
it tosses me handgrenades."
-_The Collected Journals of Kennet R'yal Shardik_
Anthony Hilbert
Joshua Jasper writes
>
> Nah, it's more than that. Alot of BDSM folk are into SF/F. It's
>just one of those wierd crossoover things. Everyone I've ever met who's
>been into BDSM has a thing for SF/F. Wierd but true.
And there are an awful lot of bdsmers in sf fandom. Take it from one
who knows :->
Hi to anyone here who was at the asb party at the Glasgow Worldcon!
--
Anthony Hilbert
"You are a creature who has received pain and given pain,
and taken too much joy in its application." - Babylon 5
(Delenn to the Inquisitor, "Comes The Inquisitor")
PMccutc103
J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
>Because otherwise we'll hang separately?
>
>I've been resisting for _days_ pointing out that I corrected John Moreno
>quite sufficiently even though I'm neither tall nor leggy...
Well, Jo, I usually go for the tall & leggy thing
myself, having been permanently warped by Lynda
Carter in _Wonder Woman_, which was on tv when I
was at the impressionable age of 13 or so.
However, you can correct me any time you want.
________________________
Pete McCutchen
Joshua Jasper
In article <L557zFAd...@hilbert.demon.co.uk>,
Anthony Hilbert <hil...@hilbert.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Joshua Jasper writes
>>
>> Nah, it's more than that. Alot of BDSM folk are into SF/F. It's
>>just one of those wierd crossoover things. Everyone I've ever met who's
>>been into BDSM has a thing for SF/F. Wierd but true.
>
>And there are an awful lot of bdsmers in sf fandom. Take it from one
>who knows :->
>
>Hi to anyone here who was at the asb party at the Glasgow Worldcon!
Er, Anthony, I know as well as you, having co hosted one of the
aforementioned parties at a Lunacon some years ago :)
Sinboy
Diziet Sma
In article <B08EBD46...@calmeilles.demon.co.uk>,
Matthew Malthouse <matthew....@guardian.co.uk> wrote:
...
>A WARNING: I love [the Gap] series and consider it Donaldson's best
>work but there is little if anything about it that is
>attractive. It's dark, dark and sordid. The first book [The Gap Into
>Conflict] is particularly wracking and possibly to be avoided by the
>more sensitive. But the first is short compared with the other four
>big tomes and is essentially a scene setting.
Perhaps I'm just weird or something, but I found that some the nasty
scenes in `The Gap into Conflict' turned me on. It was disturbing to
find myself horny one moment and then to turn the page and be quite
squicked ...
--
Diziet Sma personal email: <diz...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~diziet/
Pat Powers
I'll tell you where to go for lots of explicit descriptions of bondage and
dominance sex -- romance novels. Some of the most popular authors --
Johanna Lindsey and Beatrice Small -- have written stuff that's getting
kind of Gorean. Especially Lindsey, as in "Prisoner of My Desire." And
Lindsey's books sell well enough to make it to the general distribution
racks. So do Small's, come to think of it -- I first saw "The Love Slave"
at Kroger.
Norman's publisher used to maintain that the majority of people who
purchased Gor novels were women. A lot of people doubted that. I wonder
what they would say about Lindsey and Small's notable successes in the
marketplace.
--
Visit www.islandford.w1.com and know the beauty and terror of Karg, enjoy
the Fauxtoons and the Celebrity Clones, and generally have a good time --
mostly for free.