rec.arts.sf.written fundamentals
Richard Fletcher
> rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup devoted to discussions of written
> SF.
But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place here
should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing exsists.
Perhaps we should have something like.
"rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written SF to talk
about whatever they feel like, but mainly written SF."
--
----------------------------------------------------
Richard Fletcher, Sheffield, UK.
"Those who shun unix are forced to reinvent it."
Kate Nepveu
> From the FAQ
> > rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup devoted to discussions of written
> > SF.
> But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place here
> should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing exsists.
> Perhaps we should have something like.
> "rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written SF to talk
> about whatever they feel like, but mainly written SF."
I don't know if there's a charter, but I would strongly oppose this:
just because the group's _become_ often off-topic doesn't mean that many
of its readers _want_ it to be.
Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- kate....@yale.edu
Paired Reading Page; Book Reviews; Outside of a Dog: A Book Log
"I awoke this morning with devout thanksgiving for my friends."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
Louann Miller
wrote:
>Richard Fletcher <Ric...@icqme.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> From the FAQ
>> > rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup devoted to discussions of written
>> > SF.
>
>> But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place here
>> should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing exsists.
>> Perhaps we should have something like.
>
>> "rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written SF to talk
>> about whatever they feel like, but mainly written SF."
>
>I don't know if there's a charter, but I would strongly oppose this:
>just because the group's _become_ often off-topic doesn't mean that many
>of its readers _want_ it to be.
I suspect a lot of it is temporary. I also suspect that
alt.knitting.allwool, if there is such a group, is having the same
problem at the moment.
Louann
Richard Fletcher
> I suspect a lot of it is temporary. I also suspect that
> alt.knitting.allwool, if there is such a group, is having the same
> problem at the moment.
I've been coming and going its always seemed to be the same. I just thought
now was a good time to mention it as it is particularly notable just right
now.
--
Eric Walker
>From the FAQ
>> rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup devoted to discussions of
>> written SF.
>
>But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking
>place here should the faq should be changed, or the charter if
>such a thing exsists. Perhaps we should have something like.
>
>"rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written
>SF to talk about whatever they feel like, but mainly written
>SF."
Two points: first, relating directly, I for one (but I suspect
most or all here), do not think that propositions that
supposedly define right conduct should be altered to accomodate
violations of such right conduct. That rapidly degenerates into
Alistair Crowley country ("Do what thou wilt shall be the whole
of the law").
Second, barely relating at all: I would like to remind all
readers of this rec.arts.sf.written forum that there is a
website on which any who want can have their photograph and
whatever brief bio or comments they want posted. So far, there
are only a few of us there, but I invite all. It's at:
Please visit to see some contributors, I hope, add yourself.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, webmaster
Great Science-Fiction & Fantasy Works
http://owlcroft.com/sfandf
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
wrote:
I beg to disagree. There were reactions to the attack everywhere I
looked, but they mainly tapered off or turned into your average word
wrangling and/or regular scheduled and chartered debates. I haven't
seen a group where there've been such long off topic debates.
I really, and I mean *really*, agree with Kate. This is not a group
for anything else but written SF (with occasional excursion to comics
and movies). It was created as such and turning it into something else
wouldn't be a wise move. There's already tons of groups where people
can talk about anything that crosses their minds.
And I'm really tempted to scream "PLONK OFF ALREADY!" to all those
Osama Bin Laden Alone etc etc threads.
vlatko
--
_Neither Fish Nor Fowl_
http://www.webart.hr/nrnm/eng/index.htm
vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr
John S. Novak, III
Richard Fletcher wrote:
> But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place here
> should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing exsists.
> Perhaps we should have something like.
> "rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written SF to talk
> about whatever they feel like, but mainly written SF."
I would _really_ like this to not happen.
Just before the recent unpleasantness, this group had finally clawed its
way back up to readability and looked like it might stay there for a
while. I'd like it to go back to that level.
Specifically, I'd like people to stop talking about the recent
unpleasantness, unless it maybe has something to do with SF.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
Lois Tilton
> Specifically, I'd like people to stop talking about the recent
> unpleasantness, unless it maybe has something to do with SF.
I find myself yearning for Yog Sysop in his wrath to rise up from the
depths and expunge the offending posts.
--
LT
Richard Horton
<vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> wrote:
>And I'm really tempted to scream "PLONK OFF ALREADY!" to all those
>Osama Bin Laden Alone etc etc threads.
I plonked those threads the second they appeared.
(After all, we have rasff in which we can discuss Osama and his
actions. And to be honest, I've plonked a thread or two in rasff. So
many threads, so little time.)
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)
Quilly Mammoth
<20010927150706....@marmaduke.thedog.local>, Richard Fletcher spake
thusly:
>
>From the FAQ
>> rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup devoted to discussions of written
>> SF.
>
>But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place here
>should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing exsists.
>Perhaps we should have something like.
>
>"rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written SF to talk
>about whatever they feel like, but mainly written SF."
>
atributes of their favorite (or most despised) authors. Rarely does this
happen. Mostly the threads degenerate into world politics (or some such)
Quilly Mammoth
"Fantasy is ultimately what fiction is all about. Read it and you will become
again as a little child -- and as wise as Gandalf. Like auctioneers, we should
try to appreciate all kinds of art." Michael Dirda
Robert Carnegie
Well, the "recent unpleasantness" (I do get the reference)
isn't recent but current - the armed forces are mobile - and a
world-changing war is a big piece of a good deal of s.f. background
world-building. So it's kind of interesting.
I agree, though, that a lot of us here don't have much of interest
to say about it, particularly since the stereotypical s.f. fan is
not very military, in fact basically "Radar" from M*A*S*H.
We couldn't stop the school bully from extorting our lunch money,
what do we have to contribute to Neverending Battle?
John S. Novak, III
Robert Carnegie wrote:
> I agree, though, that a lot of us here don't have much of interest
> to say about it, particularly since the stereotypical s.f. fan is
> not very military, in fact basically "Radar" from M*A*S*H.
> We couldn't stop the school bully from extorting our lunch money,
> what do we have to contribute to Neverending Battle?
I, personally, have quite a bit to say about it.
However, I am not saying it *here*, because it is woefully
inappropriate.
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> writes
>
>I beg to disagree. There were reactions to the attack everywhere I
>looked, but they mainly tapered off or turned into your average word
>wrangling and/or regular scheduled and chartered debates. I haven't
>seen a group where there've been such long off topic debates.
>
groups) to have not had any WTC threads.
rasfw hasn't had the highest incidence; shwi is worse off, and
talk.origins has only just recovered (it's now overrun by posts on the
PBS Evolution series).
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Lois Tilton
> rasfw hasn't had the highest incidence; shwi is worse off, and
What's disturbing me is that the on-topic threads seem to have almost
disappeared, as if people are deserting the group wholesale.
--
LT
James Nicoll
running threads?
Kate Nepveu
I avoided this group on purpose immediately after; I was killfiling
people in rasff and couldn't stand to be here.
Since then I've posted a few on-topic things, but haven't been reading as
much lately.
But I will ponder re-starting the Nicoll Threads.
GSV Three Minds in a Can
wonderful person Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> said
<snip>
>>> But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place here
>>> should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing exsists.
>>> Perhaps we should have something like.
>>
>>> "rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written SF to talk
>>> about whatever they feel like, but mainly written SF."
>>
>>I don't know if there's a charter, but I would strongly oppose this:
>>just because the group's _become_ often off-topic doesn't mean that many
>>of its readers _want_ it to be.
>
>I suspect a lot of it is temporary. I also suspect that
>alt.knitting.allwool, if there is such a group, is having the same
>problem at the moment.
If 'rec.arts.textiles.quilting' will do, I can confirm that it is also
knee deep in OT postings and 11/September inspired flamewars, threats,
and shirt rending.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Brenda W. Clough
And you should've seen the knitlist. Talk about flamewars! The list mommies had
to move it to 'moderated' operation.
Brenda
--
What do you do with a secret?
Whisper it in a desert at high noon.
Lock it up and bury the key.
Tell the nation on prime-time TV.
Choose a door . . .
Doors of Death and Life
by Brenda W. Clough
http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda
Tor Books
ISBN 0-312-87064-7
Aaron Denney
> GSV Three Minds in a Can wrote:
> > If 'rec.arts.textiles.quilting' will do, I can confirm that it is also
> > knee deep in OT postings and 11/September inspired flamewars, threats,
> > and shirt rending.
>
> And you should've seen the knitlist. Talk about flamewars! The list
> mommies had to move it to 'moderated' operation.
Don't tell me that Afghan discussions are offtopic...
--
Aaron Denney
-><-
trike
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:9p2mrj$g8c$1...@panix2.panix.com...
No fair. You've been practicing.
--
Doug
--
Moviedogs v3.0: your favorite dogs in your favorite films:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/1910
Spike, Tiggy & Panda's Pug-A-Rama:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/1910
raycun
> Two points: first, relating directly, I for one (but I suspect
> most or all here), do not think that propositions that
> supposedly define right conduct should be altered to accomodate
> violations of such right conduct. That rapidly degenerates into
> Alistair Crowley country ("Do what thou wilt shall be the whole
> of the law").
Well, 'do what thou wilt' is the whole of the law in my house, but
that doesn't mean that I have one big pot in my kitchen in which I
store all of my food. Coffee goes here, tea goes there, otherwise both
end up tasting funny. I know everyone ends up off-topic sometimes, and
I'm probably substantially worse than a lot of people. But not even
trying to stick to the subject of the board is just damn rude. There
are lots of newsgroups that are devoted to politics, especially
anarchism and libertarianism, and plenty of groups where discussing US
military interventions is on-topic. How hard is it to post there
instead of here?
Ray
Martin Wisse
wrote:
That's not what's been happening, in my opinion. The magnitude of the
attacks just drove everything else from people's minds. Most of us just
didn't care to discuss sf for a while.
People will return to on topic threads.
Martin Wisse
Del Cotter
Richard Fletcher <Ric...@icqme.freeserve.co.uk> said:
>From the FAQ
>> rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup devoted to discussions of written
>> SF.
Correct.
>But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place here
>should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing exsists.
No. In light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place
here, the perpetrators should fuck off and subscribe to newsgroups
devoted to such debate. Such things *do* in fact exist, so they have no
excuses. At the very least, they could subscribe to rec.arts.sf.misc, a
newsgroup I have subscribed to, and undertaken to read every post in, no
killfiling.
John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net>, also said:
>Specifically, I'd like people to stop talking about the recent
>unpleasantness, unless it maybe has something to do with SF.
Specifically, unless it has something to do with written SF that already
exists: not films, not your idea for sf you'd like to see written in the
future, but actual already-published works of written science fiction.
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
Robert A. Woodward
mwi...@ad-astra.demon.nl (Martin Wisse) wrote:
By my count, half the posts I see this morning are definitely on topic
(and some of the remainder have some connection to written SF).
--
robe...@drizzle.com http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw/
rawoo...@aol.com
John S. Novak, III
> John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net>, also said:
>>Specifically, I'd like people to stop talking about the recent
>>unpleasantness, unless it maybe has something to do with SF.
> Specifically, unless it has something to do with written SF that already
> exists: not films, not your idea for sf you'd like to see written in the
> future, but actual already-published works of written science fiction.
I think this is going to be a little hard to enforce, and probably a
bit unfair. I know that in the past, before Brin started sucking, I
made posts about "What if Vinge and Brin collaborated," or some such.
I know other threads have existed with similar premises.
If your fear is people using unwritten fiction as a pretext for
discussing the recent unpleasntness, then I have no better suggestion
other than to remind people not to be assholes.
Jordan S. Bassior
>I think this is going to be a little hard to enforce, and probably a
>bit unfair. I know that in the past, before Brin started sucking, I
>made posts about "What if Vinge and Brin collaborated," or some such.
Brin does _not_ suck. I _liked_ that trilogy he did a couple years ago.
--
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
--
Del Cotter
Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> said:
>Vlatko Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> writes
>>I beg to disagree. There were reactions to the attack everywhere I
>>looked, but they mainly tapered off or turned into your average word
>>wrangling and/or regular scheduled and chartered debates. I haven't
>>seen a group where there've been such long off topic debates.
>rasfw hasn't had the highest incidence; shwi is worse off, and
>talk.origins has only just recovered (it's now overrun by posts on the
>PBS Evolution series).
I should not like us to use soc.history.what-if as the yardstick of
responsible poster behaviour. We should be much better.
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
Del Cotter
Yes, I observed that the total message volume went *down* following the
event. While I had 4000 unkilled posts in my four-day buffer for rasff,
there were only 600 unkilled posts in rasfw.
Allowing for my kill files, I'd guess that was about 1000 posts total in
four days, which is much smaller than rasff in the same period, whereas
the two groups are usually about equal in size.
rasff is now down to about 1600 posts in four days, while rasfw is up to
800 unkilled (=est. 1200 total).
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
Lois Tilton
> event. While I had 4000 unkilled posts in my four-day buffer for rasff,
> there were only 600 unkilled posts in rasfw.
> Allowing for my kill files, I'd guess that was about 1000 posts total in
> four days, which is much smaller than rasff in the same period, whereas
> the two groups are usually about equal in size.
> rasff is now down to about 1600 posts in four days, while rasfw is up to
> 800 unkilled (=est. 1200 total).
Coming on now, I find only a few threads posted in, but they are all at
least nominally on-topic.
--
LT
John S. Novak, III
Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
>>I think this is going to be a little hard to enforce, and probably a
>>bit unfair. I know that in the past, before Brin started sucking, I
>>made posts about "What if Vinge and Brin collaborated," or some such.
> Brin does _not_ suck. I _liked_ that trilogy he did a couple years ago.
Brin could suck the smooth right off a bowling ball, lately.
Brenda W. Clough
"John S. Novak, III" wrote:
> In article <20010929140107...@mb-fl.aol.com>,
> Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
>
> >>I think this is going to be a little hard to enforce, and probably a
> >>bit unfair. I know that in the past, before Brin started sucking, I
> >>made posts about "What if Vinge and Brin collaborated," or some such.
>
> > Brin does _not_ suck. I _liked_ that trilogy he did a couple years ago.
>
> Brin could suck the smooth right off a bowling ball, lately.
>
Wow, great image!!
Larry Caldwell
rja.ca...@excite.com writes:
> Well, the "recent unpleasantness" (I do get the reference)
> isn't recent but current - the armed forces are mobile - and a
> world-changing war is a big piece of a good deal of s.f. background
> world-building. So it's kind of interesting.
The whole "unpleasantness" was lifted from Brunner's _Stand on Zanzibar_.
That is one SF novel that just keeps on giving. I remember when it came
out I thought it was about current events more than the future. It seems
that every year it just gets more current.
John S. Novak, III
>> > Brin does _not_ suck. I _liked_ that trilogy he did a couple years ago.
>> Brin could suck the smooth right off a bowling ball, lately.
> Wow, great image!!
Del Cotter
John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net> said:
>Del Cotter wrote:
>>John S. Novak, III <j...@concentric.net>, also said:
>>>Specifically, I'd like people to stop talking about the recent
>>>unpleasantness, unless it maybe has something to do with SF.
>
>> Specifically, unless it has something to do with written SF that already
>> exists: not films, not your idea for sf you'd like to see written in the
>> future, but actual already-published works of written science fiction.
>
>I think this is going to be a little hard to enforce, and probably a
>bit unfair. I know that in the past, before Brin started sucking, I
>made posts about "What if Vinge and Brin collaborated," or some such.
As I've said before, I am, in practice, quite laid back about reasonable
digressions from strict topicality. If I seem to be taking too narrow a
definition of the group's purpose, it's because posters like Jordan
Bassior too often justify their activities with a disingenuous appeal to
the supposed "science fictional" nature of whatever political subject
they're blowing into a megathread that week.
The example you cite above is so close to the core of the r.a.sf.written
ethos that no-one could reasonably object. If I wanted to codify it,
I'd say that these are published writers of science fiction, and
discussions of their style is acceptable, but I'm not interested in
dotting every 'i' and crossing every 't'. I think "don't be an
asshole", as you say, is good advice that covers pretty much every
situation.
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
Jordan S. Bassior
>As I've said before, I am, in practice, quite laid back about reasonable
>digressions from strict topicality. If I seem to be taking too narrow a
>definition of the group's purpose, it's because posters like Jordan
>Bassior too often justify their activities with a disingenuous appeal to
>the supposed "science fictional" nature of whatever political subject
>they're blowing into a megathread that week.
Hey, Del, were you in on the discussion of _The Dispossessed_ a few months
back? _That_ was directly science-fictional ...
Richard Fletcher
> From the FAQ
>> rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup devoted to discussions of written
>> SF.
>
> But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place here
> should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing exsists.
> Perhaps we should have something like.
>
> "rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written SF to talk
> about whatever they feel like, but mainly written SF."
Well there seems to be a united front about staying on-topic, I cant help but
wonder if a rec.arts.sf.written.off-topic would be popular. We would get to
talk about all those occasional (OT) things which get us all talking, and we
would be able to do it with people we know from rasfw.
Since there are always going to be off-topic posts here, how about we all
remember to use [OT] every now and then?
I would like to apologise for wasting peoples time with my off-topic posts.
--
Richard Fletcher, Sheffield, UK.
"Those who shun unix are forced to reinvent it."
John S. Novak, III
> As I've said before, I am, in practice, quite laid back about reasonable
> digressions from strict topicality. If I seem to be taking too narrow a
> definition of the group's purpose, it's because posters like Jordan
> Bassior too often justify their activities with a disingenuous appeal to
> the supposed "science fictional" nature of whatever political subject
> they're blowing into a megathread that week.
Oh, I know damn well that Bassior will typically sieze every and any
excuse possible to justify his offtopic excursions, in textbook
examples of putting the letter of the rules of social discourse
before the spirit.
(And before Bassior pops up like some demented Kibo-wannabe
complaining that other people do the same thing, and how come I'm not
picking on them, let me pre-empt that-- Other people do the same
thing, and they're annoying, too.)
> The example you cite above is so close to the core of the r.a.sf.written
> ethos that no-one could reasonably object. If I wanted to codify it,
> I'd say that these are published writers of science fiction, and
> discussions of their style is acceptable, but I'm not interested in
> dotting every 'i' and crossing every 't'.
That would sound reasonable to me, but I confess I've been paying very
little attention to the off topic mess in here of late. I leave that
to nobler and more fortified souls than myself.
> I think "don't be an
> asshole", as you say, is good advice that covers pretty much every
> situation.
The devil, of course, is in getting people to respond to that.
Before the recent unpleasantness, it certainly seemed to me that there
had been something of a cease-fire between Bassior and Coyu, and for
the first time in a long time I felt that we were going to be able to
contain the offtopicness. Maybe I'm naive.
But if not, I think it's worth trying to achieve again, if only by
those of us interested in on topic messages making it known loud and
clear that we're not interested in a continuous rehash of CNN and
oddball theories about terrorism.
The last cease-fire seemed to have been generated by someone asking
how many people were annoyed or offended by certain behaviours; and a
fairly large number of people sounding off and being compiled into a
roster.
Perhaps that might work again, especially if the more Nicoll-minded of
us follow through with more on-topic stuff. I try to throw out a
review every once in a while, but I have a full time job and a full
time academic career to hold up....
Christopher K Davis
> Well there seems to be a united front about staying on-topic, I cant
> help but wonder if a rec.arts.sf.written.off-topic would be popular. We
> would get to talk about all those occasional (OT) things which get us
> all talking, and we would be able to do it with people we know from
> rasfw.
And we could call it...rec.arts.sf.misc. Which already exists.
ObSF: _A Fire Upon the Deep_, of course. Just ask Khurvark University.
--
Christopher Davis * <ckd...@ckdhr.com> * <URL:http://www.ckdhr.com/ckd/>
If you want to give blood, try to make an appointment.
Call 1-800-GIVE LIFE (in USA) or your local blood center/Red Cross.
Blood will be needed for weeks to come and won't keep.
James Nicoll
Richard Fletcher <Ric...@icqme.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Richard Fletcher wrote:
>
>> From the FAQ
>>> rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup devoted to discussions of written
>>> SF.
>>
>> But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place here
>> should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing exsists.
>> Perhaps we should have something like.
>>
>> "rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written SF to talk
>> about whatever they feel like, but mainly written SF."
>
>Well there seems to be a united front about staying on-topic, I cant help but
>wonder if a rec.arts.sf.written.off-topic would be popular. We would get to
>talk about all those occasional (OT) things which get us all talking, and we
>would be able to do it with people we know from rasfw.
>
science thread and oh boy, am I happy I did that.
James Nicoll
William T. Hyde
> In article <19a7rt41l45h5irho...@news.hinet.hr>, Vlatko
> Juric-Kokic <vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr> writes
> >
> >I beg to disagree. There were reactions to the attack everywhere I
> >looked, but they mainly tapered off or turned into your average word
> >wrangling and/or regular scheduled and chartered debates. I haven't
> >seen a group where there've been such long off topic debates.
> >
> I have observed some groups (mostly low traffic, but some higher traffic
> groups) to have not had any WTC threads.
rec.games.chess.misc and soc.history.medieval were
dominated by these threads after Sept 11. Of course
in the latter we had a witness from NYU posting as
it was happening.
William Hyde
EOS Department
Duke University
Steinn Sigurdsson
> In article <20010929140107...@mb-fl.aol.com>,
> Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
> >>I think this is going to be a little hard to enforce, and probably a
> >>bit unfair. I know that in the past, before Brin started sucking, I
> >>made posts about "What if Vinge and Brin collaborated," or some such.
> > Brin does _not_ suck. I _liked_ that trilogy he did a couple years ago.
> Brin could suck the smooth right off a bowling ball, lately.
Booh!
His latest book (title "Kiln People" last I heard)
is quite interesting - very different from his previous work,
has potential, though I am not totally happy with some of
the plotting.
I expect a lot of people will like it, though I don't think
it is as good as Startide Rising or Earth.
James Nicoll
Steinn Sigurdsson <ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> wrote:
>j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) writes:
>
>> In article <20010929140107...@mb-fl.aol.com>,
>> Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
>
>> >>I think this is going to be a little hard to enforce, and probably a
>> >>bit unfair. I know that in the past, before Brin started sucking, I
>> >>made posts about "What if Vinge and Brin collaborated," or some such.
>
>> > Brin does _not_ suck. I _liked_ that trilogy he did a couple years ago.
>
>> Brin could suck the smooth right off a bowling ball, lately.
>
>Booh!
>His latest book (title "Kiln People" last I heard)
>is quite interesting - very different from his previous work,
>has potential, though I am not totally happy with some of
>the plotting.
Interesting book, although I think
SPOILERS
The confrontation at the lab went on _way_ too long. It starts
at what, about page three hundred and features in the book most of the
way to page eight hundred? Granted, not all of that is at the lab.
Back in the 1980s, I read a Dunnigan (?) article on this
super-cool wargame computer the US miliary was using, one bit of which
still sticks with me. A young officer commented that he knew the enemy
was over a hill he couldn't see past because everytime he sent a
helicopter over in that direction, it got shot down. He was sending
a new chopper over every five minutes or so, I think. Bet he was popular
with the enlisted men. The PI's detective methods reminded me of that
young officer...
William T. Hyde
> In article <9p2lqd$cnb$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
> Lois Tilton <lti...@shell-1.enteract.com> wrote:
> >Stewart Robert Hinsley <{$news$}@meden.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> rasfw hasn't had the highest incidence; shwi is worse off, and
> >
> >What's disturbing me is that the on-topic threads seem to have almost
> >disappeared, as if people are deserting the group wholesale.
> >
> Anyone up for a round of who can start the most on topic, long
> running threads?
Well, no, but here is something on topic, at least,
in partial expiation of my [OT] postings:
When I changed jobs this summer, I decided to pander
to my lazy side, and take the month of August off without
pay. Added to my accrued vacation this meant a seven
week break, which seemed like a good length of time in
which to catch up on my reading.
I had the clever idea of restricting my SF reading
to books which had provoked controversy on this
group, or to rereading books which others here
liked considerably, and I had disliked, or vice
versa.
I further had the rather foolish idea that I would
then write extensive reviews of these books, for
posting here. As to why this was foolish, well,
I did say that I am lazy. Reviews are hard work.
So here are some non-reviews:
The Dispossessed. (Ursula K. LeGuin)
I admit to my shame that I had never read this book.
I got a book club copy when it came out, and stopped
about fifty pages in (twenty seven years later the
bookmark was still there). But having seem Ms. LeGuin
and her book blamed for the killing fields of Cambodia,
I had to give this another try.
As fiction, I liked it very much, which surprised me.
It was a mistake to include an equation, and she has
a difficult time dealing with Shevek's science (though
some of the frustrations of pure research do ring true),
but these are minor flaws, in my opinion.
As to the controversy, I just don't get it. The
flaws of the anarchist society are made glaringly
obvious, almost from page one. Coincidentally, I
was reading some Orwell essays at the time, and his
comments on the problems of anarchy mirror LeGuin's
novel. Though she also shows us the strengths of
the society on Anarres, as a utopia it is ambiguous
indeed. She even has a Terran praise, quite
strongly, the archist society on Urras. And as
that is deliberately painted to be worse, at least
for women, than Western society today, I cannot
see that she is claiming the anarchist society as
clearly superior to our own.
To me it seemed that she got the flavour of the
anarchist society exactly right. I know people
like that, older people who have had very hard
lives, are immensely practical, managed somehow
to grab an education but don't balk at hard
physical labour. Their attitudes and conversation
could almost come from the book.
The Book of the New Sun (vols 1-3) (Gene Wolfe)
I haven't read this since it came out, and that
was an odd time in my life, so mostly I read it
in brief snatches, while very tired. I liked it,
but that is no way to treat a book. Given that my
memories of it were misty, to say the least, I took
no part in the threads trashing/supporting this work
on rasfw.
On rereading (volumes 1-3, my volume 4 has gone away),
I find it even better than I thought. I'm wracking
my brain at the moment to recall the criticisms leveled
at this work on this group. I suppose it is possible
to dislike anything, but I'd say that any person who
decided not to read this work on the basis of postings
on this group should reconsider. The language is
rich, so if you aren't prepared to look up the odd
word, or have (and want to keep) a weak vocabulary,
that might be a problem. If you prefer your protagonists
to be square-jawed good guys who don't change at
all throughout the book, you won't like this. And
finally if you want a plot line that can be summarized
in crayon on a post it note, you will again want to
avoid this work.
Hiero's Journey. (Sterling Lanier)
I read this when it came out, and hated it. But it
has fans, even people who somewhat desperately ask
where they can get the sequel, so I decided to give
it another try.
I hated it. Worse than last time. The author has
a story, all right, but he murders it. I couldn't
finish it this time, the sentence that stopped me
being "they utilized the stream". If I kept a list
of the ten worst phrases in SF, that might make it.
The heavy authorial presence is very annoying
("Hiero was unaware that ...") and the plotting
clumsy. IIRC Hiero is in life-threatening situations
three times in the first five pages. Still, if you
like writers who utilize utilize, who tell you ex
cathedra what will happen, and three fights to the
death every chapter, this is the book for you.
The book was a Frederick Pohl selection, and his
taste is usually good. As I say above, there is
a story here, and a good one of its kind. But for me
this is vastly outweighed by the book's other flaws.
There's many another book with a good story.
Oh, yeah, the talking telepathic animal thing
didn't work for me. Andre Norton does that sort
of thing better.
Guns, Germs, and Steel (Jared Diamond).
OK, this is not SF, but GGS should be mandatory for
SF writers who are doing species/worldbuilding.
I started the work with a bias against it, as some
of its arguments had been badly summarized in a PC
sort of way, but within a few pages I realized that
Diamond was trying for an objective analysis of
why some societies got off to an earlier start
than others. The title is somewhat misleading,
as guns and steel play little role in the book.
Even if we discard, for some reason, Diamond's
thesis, there is a wealth of information which
alone makes this worth reading.
Vlatko Juric-Kokic
wrote:
>The last cease-fire seemed to have been generated by someone asking
>how many people were annoyed or offended by certain behaviours; and a
>fairly large number of people sounding off and being compiled into a
>roster.
Um, no. It was Martin Wisse publicly plonking John Ringo. Which
started a thread on whether he did right and what to do about the
group.
>Perhaps that might work again, especially if the more Nicoll-minded of
>us follow through with more on-topic stuff.
Yes. And dropping in the off-topic threads and screaming at the
people. semi-:-)
vlatko
--
_Neither Fish Nor Fowl_
http://www.webart.hr/nrnm/eng/index.htm
vlatko.ju...@zg.hinet.hr
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
Jordan S. Bassior <jsba...@aol.com> spake:
On the contrary, Brin has always sucked. He sucked before he was
born, that's how much he sucks; fen in the '50s had a gnawing sense of
doom, knowing that some day, Brin would appear and spew his lousy
derivative novels on the scene. Bah.
--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"You have grown old in the fine art of bastardy. My compliments."
-Suresh Ramasubramanian
Andrew Wheeler
>
> Guns, Germs, and Steel (Jared Diamond).
>
> OK, this is not SF, but GGS should be mandatory for
> SF writers who are doing species/worldbuilding.
>
> I started the work with a bias against it, as some
> of its arguments had been badly summarized in a PC
> sort of way, but within a few pages I realized that
> Diamond was trying for an objective analysis of
> why some societies got off to an earlier start
> than others. The title is somewhat misleading,
> as guns and steel play little role in the book.
Agreed. It really should have been titled _Germs, Geography and
Domestic Animals_, but that wouldn't have been as catchy.
> Even if we discard, for some reason, Diamond's
> thesis, there is a wealth of information which
> alone makes this worth reading.
I'm suspicious of any "I have a theory which explains everything"
books, and _GG&S_ came close to completely convincing me. There are
certainly other factors at work, but Diamond proves that the factors
he concentrates on are very important.
Of course, we won't know for sure until we either a) find some alien
civilizations to study or b) come across the Lost Colonies of the
First Diaspora and see how they came out. (I'm trying to think of a
way to ObSF this to either Chandler's John Grimes novels or John
Barnes's "springer" books, but I'm failing.)
--
Andrew Wheeler
Editor, SF Book Club (USA) -- speaking only for myself
"Life is a god-damned, stinking, treacherous game and
nine hundred and ninety-nine men out of a thousand are
bastards." -- Theodore Dreiser
Andrew Wheeler
>
> In article <rx7pu87...@najma.astro.psu.edu>,
> Steinn Sigurdsson <ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> wrote:
> >j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) writes:
> >
> >> In article <20010929140107...@mb-fl.aol.com>,
> >> Jordan S. Bassior wrote:
>
> >> > Brin does _not_ suck. I _liked_ that trilogy he did a
> >> > couple years ago.
> >
> >> Brin could suck the smooth right off a bowling ball,
> >> lately.
> >
> >Booh!
> >His latest book (title "Kiln People" last I heard)
> >is quite interesting - very different from his previous
> >work, has potential, though I am not totally happy with
> >some of the plotting.
>
> Interesting book, although I think
>
> SPOILERS
>
> The confrontation at the lab went on _way_ too long.
> It starts at what, about page three hundred and features in
> the book most of the way to page eight hundred? Granted, not
> all of that is at the lab.
I will point out that James is talking about *manuscript* pages (the
final book will be around 448pp), but the scenes at the lab are still
going on (in between other things) for over half of the book. _Kiln
People_ is a multiple first-person book (with a twist), so the fact
that one of the characters is held by the Mad Scientist didn't bother
me that much. I expect that in skiffy Mad Scientist books; and I
expect the detective to be captured by the villain in PI novels too
(so I guess Brin just added up the time required by both of his models
and applied it to his book).
For parallax, I liked it a *lot* better than the last Uplift trilogy,
which kept veering away from the things I actually cared about to keep
talking about boring 'ol Jijo, armpit of the universe.
John S. Novak, III
'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
>>>I think this is going to be a little hard to enforce, and probably a
>>>bit unfair. I know that in the past, before Brin started sucking, I
>>>made posts about "What if Vinge and Brin collaborated," or some such.
>> Brin does _not_ suck. I _liked_ that trilogy he did a couple years ago.
> On the contrary, Brin has always sucked. He sucked before he was
> born, that's how much he sucks; fen in the '50s had a gnawing sense of
> doom, knowing that some day, Brin would appear and spew his lousy
> derivative novels on the scene. Bah.
Oh, I dunno.
I rather liked _The Postman_ and the first few Uplift novels.
When someone decided that he didn't need to be editted; and he decided
that making all the aliens sound like humans was a bright idea; and
almost all the mysteries of the Uplift series were revealed (and they
were all STUPID, like the 104 degree angle chevrons marking the marged
fleets of the Hydrogen and Oxygen breathers) then he started sucking.
Lawrence Person
j...@concentric.net (John S. Novak, III) wrote:
> Oh, I dunno.
> I rather liked _The Postman_ and the first few Uplift novels.
"A Stage of Memory" is also a brilliant short story, and "The River of Time"
quite good as well.
>
> When someone decided that he didn't need to be editted; and he decided
> that making all the aliens sound like humans was a bright idea; and
> almost all the mysteries of the Uplift series were revealed (and they
> were all STUPID, like the 104 degree angle chevrons marking the marged
> fleets of the Hydrogen and Oxygen breathers) then he started sucking.
Parts of The Uplift War sucked, but there were still some interesting things
going on here and there. On the other hand, Earth sucks through and through. I
will give Brin his ambition (aiming for Stand on Zanzibar is a noble goal), but
both the conception and execution fall so far short of even minimally acceptable
professional levels that it's one of the few books I actually, literally hurled
across the room.
Discounting the L. Ron Hubbard thing, Earth probably displayed the most
distressing lack of basic technical competence for a Hugo finalist for Best
Novel until the publication of Robert J. Sawyer's even more henious Starplex.
Very, say I, Brin's Sucking started with Earth.
--
Lawrence Person
lawrenc...@jump.net
Lame Excuse Books Now Online at: http://www.abebooks.com
Nova Express Website: http://www.sflit.com/novaexpress
David Tate
> In article <slrn9rhv22....@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>, Mark
> 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
> > On the contrary, Brin has always sucked. He sucked before he was
> > born, that's how much he sucks; fen in the '50s had a gnawing sense of
> > doom, knowing that some day, Brin would appear and spew his lousy
> > derivative novels on the scene. Bah.
>
> Oh, I dunno.
> I rather liked _The Postman_ and the first few Uplift novels.
I'm always weirded out when people evaluate authors that I think of as
"short form specialists" solely on the basis of their novels. Of
*course* Brin sucks if you just read the novels; he's not really very
good at the form. Cool ideas, gawky yet ponderous execution. The
whole Uplift series renegs on more promise than any other works I can
think of offhand. (Well, maybe not as bad as Riverworld. But I
digress.)
His shorter works, on the other hand, are consistently far better. I
particularly liked "Piecework", "The Giving Plague", "Thor Meets
Captain America", and to a lesser extent "The Warm Space" and
"NatuLife(R)".
Cheers,
David Tate
Forrest
>The whole Uplift series renegs on more promise than any other works I can
>think of offhand.
Assuming that they exist, could someone please point me at spoilers
for what happened to Creideiki and what the Mysterious Fleet was all
about?
--
DNA delenda est.
GSV Three Minds in a Can
the wonderful person Forrest <bct...@hotmail.com> said
You're really =much= better off using your imagination, since you won't
like the official answers even a little bit (imho, ymmv, etc).
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Charles Frederick Goodin
Alaya_ , the first book in the nineteenth Uplift Trilogy. Before that, he
was great.
--
chuk
Matthew Austern
> The
> whole Uplift series renegs on more promise than any other works I can
> think of offhand. (Well, maybe not as bad as Riverworld. But I
> digress.)
Perhaps, but it's an interesting digression. Alas, reneging on
promise is a fairly common phenomenon. Stories that set up grand,
mysterious premises often fail to have a conclusion with as much
weight as the beginning would seem to suggest. I suppose that's
because there are really only a few choices---explain the deep
mysteries, explicitly leave them mysterious, or shuffle them off to
the side and shift the focus to something else---and it's hard to do
any of those convincingly well. Not impossible; I can think of good
examples of all of those things. But they're all easier to do badly
than to do well, and I have the sense that the risks of failure are
greater as the scale increases.
I agree with the examples of _Startide Rising_ and _Riverworld_. (The
best Riverworld story, in my opinion, was the original short story---
which doesn't try to explain anything, and just uses the Riverworld as
a setting.) Other examples include Babylon 5 (the resolution of the
Shadow thread was embarrassingly bad), _Hyperion_/_The Fall of
Hyperion_, and His Dark Materials. (I liked _The Golden Compass_ a
lot, but I found _The Amber Spyglass_ a major disappointment.)
Captain Button
Damn it, I *told* them that the ansible TCP/IP standard wasn't ready
for release!
I *told* them FTL packets will get all misdirected in time!
But would they listen? Nooooooooooo....
:-)}
--
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in
tolerance and free speech," - David Brin
Captain Button - but...@io.com
Martin Wisse
wrote:
>Oh, I know damn well that Bassior will typically sieze every and any
>excuse possible to justify his offtopic excursions, in textbook
>examples of putting the letter of the rules of social discourse
>before the spirit.
>
>(And before Bassior pops up like some demented Kibo-wannabe
>complaining that other people do the same thing, and how come I'm not
>picking on them, let me pre-empt that-- Other people do the same
>thing, and they're annoying, too.)
But other people don't send 42,000 posts in three years time...
Martin Wisse
--
Oh no! Now I have an image of Richard Nixon *and* Ronald Reagan
having sex in the Oval Office. <cue wocka-chicka-wow-wow music>
RN: "Ronnie, get down there and win one for my zipper."
RR: "Well, I see why they call you Tricky Dick." </music>
-Ed Dravecky III, rasseff
Jordan S. Bassior
>Damn it, I *told* them that the ansible TCP/IP standard wasn't ready
>for release!
>
>I *told* them FTL packets will get all misdirected in time!
>
>But would they listen? Nooooooooooo....
According to the AOL news feed from 2050, some of the consequences were tragic,
too ...
Ross TenEyck
[SPOILERS]
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
(Working from memory...) We still don't know what happened to
Creidiki (sp?), Tom, and the rest of that crowd. There are strong
hints that they're still around -- I seem to recall a trail through
that weird-ass meme space that was probably them -- but we don't
know. Yet to come, I suppose.
The Mysterious Fleet... oy. It turns out that the reason for all
the brouhaha is that the fleet was found in flat space -- not near
any strong gravitational source. Why does this matter, you ask?
(Trust me, you don't want to, but you probably are asking anyway.)
It seems that *all* the elder races in the Uplift universe, once
they attain a certain age, develop a physical addiction to extreme
gravitational gradients. (No, really.) They go into close orbit
around neutron stars or black holes, and eventually get mushed into
some kind of physical/spiritual/something union with other species
and transcend this plane of existence. Or, to put it another way,
die squashed into a thin film. This is called "the Embrace of Tides."
This whole process (which, remember, is *universal* across all species
that attain a certain age) is shrouded in secrecy and mysticism, and
is supposed to be following the way the Progenitors bowed gracefully
off the stage. However, the discovery of the mummies off an undeniably
ancient species -- possibly even the Progenitors themselves -- way out
in flat space, as far away as possible from the Embrace of Tides, casts
doubt on the entire thing; hence the extreme FUD and hostility of the
elder races.
The whole thing reads to me like Brin had no clue where he was going
when he started _Startide Rising,_ and, faced with the necessity of
answering at least *some* questions in _Heaven's Reach,_ he pulled
the Embrace of Tides out of his ass. Personally, I've edited it out
of the version of the Uplift universe that exists in my head; it's
just too damn silly.
--
================== http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~teneyck ==================
Ross TenEyck Seattle, WA \ Light, kindled in the furnace of hydrogen;
ten...@alumni.caltech.edu \ like smoke, sunlight carries the hot-metal
Are wa yume? Soretomo maboroshi? \ tang of Creation's forge.
Alan Gore
ag...@qwest.net | "Giving money and power to the government
Alan Gore | is like giving whiskey and car keys
Software For PC's, Inc. | to teenaged boys" - P. J. O'Rourke
http://www.alangore.com
Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
<lawrenceperson-6A5...@news.jump.net>,
Lawrence Person <lawrenc...@jump.net> spake:
> Parts of The Uplift War sucked, but there were still some interesting
> things going on here and there. On the other hand, Earth sucks through
> and through. I will give Brin his ambition (aiming for Stand on
> Zanzibar is a noble goal), but both the conception and execution fall
> so far short of even minimally acceptable professional levels that
> it's one of the few books I actually, literally hurled across the
> room.
Pretty much exactly my thoughts, except that I was even more
infuriated by how shameless and incompetent his ripoff of _Stand on
Zanzibar_ and _The Shockwave Rider_ was. I've calmed down enough that I
don't usually openly call him a two-bit ripoff hack these days, but
that's only because my memory of how awful it was has faded.
The first three Uplift books had a neat idea, but they were cheezy
space opera, and filled with Campbellian "humans are special!" bullshit,
but I digested them fine. And I like intelligent apes, even his
too-human ones[0]. The two or so I read since that were just amazingly
bad. I kept checking the cover to see if Gentry Lee was involved.
Every one of Brin's essays that I've read has been deeply wrong and/or
morally offensive to me, too. Basically, the man's a write-off. Trade
him in for some new protoplasm, I say. I think it's perfectly fitting
that they cast Kevin Fucking "I Can't Act" Costner for his movie.
[0] There's a *good* non-human-psychology intelligent chimp story in a
recent Analog. I can't find it now, so I can't give a better reference.
John S. Novak, III
>> Oh, I dunno.
>> I rather liked _The Postman_ and the first few Uplift novels.
> I'm always weirded out when people evaluate authors that I think of as
> "short form specialists" solely on the basis of their novels.
Wasn't _The Postman_ originally published as distinct shorts?
Richard Horton
'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote:
>[0] There's a *good* non-human-psychology intelligent chimp story in a
>recent Analog. I can't find it now, so I can't give a better reference.
Could you mean "Seven Times Never" in a recent Asimov's?
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)
Ryan Klippenstine
wrote:
>In article <9d67e55e.0110...@posting.google.com>, David Tate wrote:
>
>>> Oh, I dunno.
>>> I rather liked _The Postman_ and the first few Uplift novels.
>
>> I'm always weirded out when people evaluate authors that I think of as
>> "short form specialists" solely on the basis of their novels.
>
>Wasn't _The Postman_ originally published as distinct shorts?
As I recall, it contained two or three shorts, but they were embedded
into a substantial amount of new text.
David Tate
> Every one of Brin's essays that I've read has been deeply wrong and/or
> morally offensive to me, too.
I hear a lot of people saying this. Makes me glad I haven't read
many; I'd hate to have his real-life idiocy screw up my enjoyment of
his excellent stories.
> Basically, the man's a write-off.
Personally? Could be; I don't really care one way another. As a
writer? I'll say it again -- stick to the short stories.
Cheers,
David Tate
Dan Swartzendruber
dt...@ida.org says...
> kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote in message news:<slrn9rnc84.1...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>...
>
> > Every one of Brin's essays that I've read has been deeply wrong and/or
> > morally offensive to me, too.
>
> I hear a lot of people saying this. Makes me glad I haven't read
> many; I'd hate to have his real-life idiocy screw up my enjoyment of
> his excellent stories.
I've never read any of his essays. What was bogus about them?
Robert Shaw
"Dan Swartzendruber" <dsw...@druber.com> wrote
> dt...@ida.org says...
> > kami...@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu (Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes) wrote
> >
> > > Every one of Brin's essays that I've read has been deeply wrong
and/or
> > > morally offensive to me, too.
> >
> > I hear a lot of people saying this. Makes me glad I haven't read
> > many; I'd hate to have his real-life idiocy screw up my enjoyment of
> > his excellent stories.
>
> I've never read any of his essays. What was bogus about them?
>
His tone rankles. There's a sense he's saying this is the way
thing are, and all sane people must agree.
The worst are his anti-fantasy rants, damning Tolkien
because Gandalf spent all his time opposing Sauron
but never bothered to invent flushing toilets, showing
that Brin completely missed the point.
--
'It is a wise crow that knows which way the camel points' - Pratchett
Robert Shaw
David Given
Lawrence Person <lawrenc...@jump.net> writes:
[...]
> Parts of The Uplift War sucked, but there were still some interesting things
> going on here and there. On the other hand, Earth sucks through and through. I
> will give Brin his ambition (aiming for Stand on Zanzibar is a noble goal), but
> both the conception and execution fall so far short of even minimally acceptable
> professional levels that it's one of the few books I actually, literally hurled
> across the room.
YMMV. I love _Earth_. I think it's great. It was big and flashy with a
large (and fairly well-portrayed) cast, epic storylines, sweeping ideas,
and a really good sense of pace. There was rather a lot of ecological
moralising, but I can cope with that. (Apart from anything else, I agree
with a lot of it, even though I don't agree with the way Brin goes *on*
about it.)
I thought the Second Uplift Trilogy sucked, though, so we at least agree
of something.
--
+- David Given --------McQ-+
| Work: d...@tao-group.com | Closed mouths gather no feet.
| Play: d...@cowlark.com |
+- http://www.cowlark.com -+
Dan Swartzendruber
> In article <lawrenceperson-6A5...@news.jump.net>,
> Lawrence Person <lawrenc...@jump.net> writes:
> [...]
> > Parts of The Uplift War sucked, but there were still some interesting things
> > going on here and there. On the other hand, Earth sucks through and through. I
> > will give Brin his ambition (aiming for Stand on Zanzibar is a noble goal), but
> > both the conception and execution fall so far short of even minimally acceptable
> > professional levels that it's one of the few books I actually, literally hurled
> > across the room.
>
> YMMV. I love _Earth_. I think it's great. It was big and flashy with a
> large (and fairly well-portrayed) cast, epic storylines, sweeping ideas,
> and a really good sense of pace. There was rather a lot of ecological
> moralising, but I can cope with that. (Apart from anything else, I agree
> with a lot of it, even though I don't agree with the way Brin goes *on*
> about it.)
>
> I thought the Second Uplift Trilogy sucked, though, so we at least agree
> of something.
You pretty much said it all, as far as I'm concerned.
Richard Horton
wrote:
>YMMV. I love _Earth_. I think it's great. It was big and flashy with a
>large (and fairly well-portrayed) cast, epic storylines, sweeping ideas,
>and a really good sense of pace. There was rather a lot of ecological
>moralising, but I can cope with that. (Apart from anything else, I agree
>with a lot of it, even though I don't agree with the way Brin goes *on*
>about it.)
Yeah, but how about the goddamned DEFINITION of deus ex machina (OK,
deus ex gaea, but who cares?) to resolve the plot?
John S. Novak, III
> The worst are his anti-fantasy rants, damning Tolkien
> because Gandalf spent all his time opposing Sauron
> but never bothered to invent flushing toilets, showing
> that Brin completely missed the point.
But I bet i can look forward to a Salon piece once the movie is
released.
Monte Davis
>
>It seems that *all* the elder races in the Uplift universe, once
>they attain a certain age, develop a physical addiction to extreme
>gravitational gradients. (No, really.) They go into close orbit
>around neutron stars or black holes, and eventually get mushed into
>some kind of physical/spiritual/something union with other species
>and transcend this plane of existence. Or, to put it another way,
>die squashed into a thin film. This is called "the Embrace of Tides."
Isn't there a hint within the spiritual handwaving that the extreme
gradients offer them a large energy source and/or time dilation? (Or
did I import that from other SF stories?)
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
<rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 18:12:55 +0100, d...@pearl.tao.co.uk (David Given)
>wrote:
>
>>YMMV. I love _Earth_. I think it's great. It was big and flashy with a
>>large (and fairly well-portrayed) cast, epic storylines, sweeping ideas,
>>and a really good sense of pace. There was rather a lot of ecological
>>moralising, but I can cope with that. (Apart from anything else, I agree
>>with a lot of it, even though I don't agree with the way Brin goes *on*
>>about it.)
>
>Yeah, but how about the goddamned DEFINITION of deus ex machina (OK,
>deus ex gaea, but who cares?) to resolve the plot?
Now, I haven't read "Earth" (although I did meet Brin 'round about the
time it came out, at a mutual friend's barbecue, but that's another
story), but I'm having alot of trouble visualizing how that would work
- the plot is resolved by having a character portraying Dionysus
lowered into the action by a crane?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric D. Berge
(remove spaces for valid address)
Clay lies still, but blood's a rover
Breath's a ware that will not keep
Up, lad! When the journey's over
There'll be time enough to sleep.
- A.E.Housman, "Reveille"
------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Wisse
wrote:
>In article <lawrenceperson-6A5...@news.jump.net>,
> Lawrence Person <lawrenc...@jump.net> writes:
>[...]
>> Parts of The Uplift War sucked, but there were still some interesting things
>> going on here and there. On the other hand, Earth sucks through and through. I
>> will give Brin his ambition (aiming for Stand on Zanzibar is a noble goal), but
>> both the conception and execution fall so far short of even minimally acceptable
>> professional levels that it's one of the few books I actually, literally hurled
>> across the room.
>
>YMMV. I love _Earth_. I think it's great. It was big and flashy with a
>large (and fairly well-portrayed) cast, epic storylines, sweeping ideas,
>and a really good sense of pace. There was rather a lot of ecological
>moralising, but I can cope with that. (Apart from anything else, I agree
>with a lot of it, even though I don't agree with the way Brin goes *on*
>about it.)
I liked _Earth_ as well. It was one of the first "modern" sf books I
read, having been limited to a library which was 20 years out of date
and one second hand bookshop, likewise. Looking back at it now, it is
clearly a book that could only have been written in that exact year.
Martin Wisse
--
I never understood people who don't have bookshelves.
- George Plimpton
David Given
Richard Horton <rrho...@prodigy.net> writes:
[...]
>>YMMV. I love _Earth_. I think it's great. It was big and flashy with a
>>large (and fairly well-portrayed) cast, epic storylines, sweeping ideas,
>>and a really good sense of pace. There was rather a lot of ecological
>>moralising, but I can cope with that. (Apart from anything else, I agree
>>with a lot of it, even though I don't agree with the way Brin goes *on*
>>about it.)
>
> Yeah, but how about the goddamned DEFINITION of deus ex machina (OK,
> deus ex gaea, but who cares?) to resolve the plot?
Well, it's an extension of the two major themes of the book: firstly, the
sum of the parts is greater than the whole; and secondly, take care of
your environment and it will take care of you.
For this second point, notice all the different people whose independent
efforts go towards the final solution. Most of the cast are involved,
actually, from the elderly AI specialist and her student to the black hole
controllers (I can't remember any names). Even the mad ecological fanatic
(who *has* to win an award for Most Annoying Character) and the putative
aliens who dropped the second hole in the Earth do their part, despite
being almost entirely destructive. This all resonates with one of Brin's
other themes, which is that ecosystems aren't fluffy and cuddly and
Disneyesque but contain some pretty nasty things --- and those nasty
things are just as important as the cute bits, if not more. Parallel this
with Brin's rather chaotic World Net.
And, in fact, I don't think that it was a classic deus ex machina. It's
been a while since I read it but I reckon that Gaia's appearance was
fairly adequately heralded; take a look at the major character's religious
beliefs some time.
Lawrence Person
Eric D. Berge <eric_berge @ hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >Yeah, but how about the goddamned DEFINITION of deus ex machina (OK,
> >deus ex gaea, but who cares?) to resolve the plot?
>
> Now, I haven't read "Earth" (although I did meet Brin 'round about the
> time it came out, at a mutual friend's barbecue, but that's another
> story), but I'm having alot of trouble visualizing how that would work
> - the plot is resolved by having a character portraying Dionysus
> lowered into the action by a crane?
No, unfortunately nothing that subtle or elegant...
--
Lawrence Person
lawrenc...@jump.net
Lame Excuse Books Now Online at: http://www.abebooks.com
Nova Express Website: http://www.sflit.com/novaexpress
Johnny1A
AMEN!!!!
I scared to think of what Brin has in mind for Tom Orley!
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
E-level hyperspace and the memetic life-forms...is it possible that
Brin was high when he wrote those sections? I'm joking, but more than
anything else, E-level trips with Harry reminded my of descriptions
I've heard of bad trips on LSD!
>
> The Mysterious Fleet... oy. It turns out that the reason for all
> the brouhaha is that the fleet was found in flat space -- not near
> any strong gravitational source. Why does this matter, you ask?
> (Trust me, you don't want to, but you probably are asking anyway.)
>
> It seems that *all* the elder races in the Uplift universe, once
> they attain a certain age, develop a physical addiction to extreme
> gravitational gradients. (No, really.) They go into close orbit
> around neutron stars or black holes, and eventually get mushed into
> some kind of physical/spiritual/something union with other species
> and transcend this plane of existence. Or, to put it another way,
> die squashed into a thin film. This is called "the Embrace of Tides."
I could think of other things to call it.
>
> This whole process (which, remember, is *universal* across all species
> that attain a certain age) is shrouded in secrecy and mysticism, and
> is supposed to be following the way the Progenitors bowed gracefully
> off the stage. However, the discovery of the mummies off an undeniably
> ancient species -- possibly even the Progenitors themselves -- way out
> in flat space, as far away as possible from the Embrace of Tides, casts
> doubt on the entire thing; hence the extreme FUD and hostility of the
> elder races.
I noticed some logical holes in this idea. For example, the Great
Harrower supposedly selects worthy candidates for Transcension from
among the oldest, most evolved races. The Harrower is an example of
Transcendent technology at work. If so, how did the _first_ batches
of elder races get selected, since there could be no Harrower without
Transcendents to build it!
The Machine life order is another irritant in these scheme. If
Machine elements are necessary components of the Transcendents, how
did they get worked into the grand scheme? From what I understand,
the Machine order evolved from escaped Von Neumann machines used by
the Galactics. Somehow it seems odd that such an accidental species
would feel the Call of the Tides.
Furthermore, the Embrace of Tides comes from nowhere. It isn't even
hinted at it the earlier novels. In fact, they actively contradict
it. At one point in _Startide Rising_, Gillian is reviewing a Library
article on the 'passing modes of species'. For the most part, there
isn't much available, and it's implied that most of the older species
eventually go extinct, though it's hinted that a few might leave
reality by a 'side door'.
By the time of the later novels, _everyone_ and his neodog have heard
of the Embrace of Tides. Gillian calls it 'fabled'.
Way back in the early days of the Uplift novels, there were two life
orders, Oxygen and Hydrogen. That wasn't bad. In fact, it made a
kind of sense, for the universe in question. Now, we've got a whole
mess of life-orders, again from out of nowhere. Personally, I hate
the memetic life-forms more than all the others put together, but I
can work up some animus against the quantum order and the Machine
Order.
The Machine order does appear in the Uplift War, in a brief mention
that a few clans of machine entities exist, descended from Galactic
machines. Nowhere is it hinted that the Machines make up an entire
equal life-order!
By the way, at what point between the old novels and the new did
Gillian receive a pre-frontal lobotomy? That's the only way I can
explain her sudden loss of intellect and perception!
And the ending! After having been chased all over the Five (or Four,
or Seventeen) Galaxies for three years, Gillian hands over the mummy
and other artifacts and data to the outgoing travellers, who carry
them off to a distant system of galaxies beyond the reach of the
Galactics.
Huh? I'd like to be able to listen in to the briefing session when
Gillian explains to the Terragens Council that she shot the goods off
into intergalactic space! If _that's_ all it took, why not do that
earlier?! I'm sure the Council will be delighted to know that they
endured the siege for nothing.
It's a shame, really. I enjoyed Sundiver, Startide Rising, and to a
lesser extent, The Uplift War (though the bad trend was visible then),
but the later books are so inconsistent with the first as to be worse
than nothing!
> The whole thing reads to me like Brin had no clue where he was going
> when he started _Startide Rising,_ and, faced with the necessity of
> answering at least *some* questions in _Heaven's Reach,_ he pulled
> the Embrace of Tides out of his ass. Personally, I've edited it out
> of the version of the Uplift universe that exists in my head; it's
> just too damn silly.
Amen, amen, amen! As far as I am concerned, the last update on the
Streaker was the one at the end of Uplift War, and nothing more has
been learned since!
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
Brin seems to have developed a hatred of _anything_ that hints of the
supernatural, or that the modern Enlightenment-based philosophies of
society are not the final and correct outlook. I notice that his bile
seems to float back and forth from fantasy, to religion, around to all
forms of government that are not modern Western democracies, and back
to fantasy again.
His articles on Star Wars are interesting in this context. I don't
know what he hates worse, the fact that the Force exists in the Star
Wars universe, or the idea that there can be more to a decision than
pure materialist pragmatism.
(Granted, a few of his criticisms are valid, about some of the plot
points and the like, but for the most part he misses the point again.)
Now that I think about it, he also hates tragedy as a dramatic form.
He seems infuriated that defeat can sometimes be inevitable, and that
a character can still be perceived as having duties in the face of
that. It seems to have escaped him that part of the point of a tragic
story is to tell of the way the protagonist deals or doesn't deal with
the tragedy, not just random badness.
Shermanlee
John S. Novak, III
> Brin seems to have developed a hatred of _anything_ that hints of the
> supernatural, or that the modern Enlightenment-based philosophies of
> society are not the final and correct outlook. I notice that his bile
> seems to float back and forth from fantasy, to religion, around to all
> forms of government that are not modern Western democracies, and back
> to fantasy again.
Well I share the same bias, but I know the difference between the real
world and modern fables, for cryin' out loud.
As someone with a moderate interest in Brin kookism, can someone point
me to one of his Tolkien rants?
Del Cotter
Jordan S. Bassior <jsba...@aol.com> said:
>Del Cotter said:
>>As I've said before, I am, in practice, quite laid back about reasonable
>>digressions from strict topicality. If I seem to be taking too narrow a
>>definition of the group's purpose, it's because posters like Jordan
>>Bassior too often justify their activities with a disingenuous appeal to
>>the supposed "science fictional" nature of whatever political subject
>>they're blowing into a megathread that week.
>
>Hey, Del, were you in on the discussion of _The Dispossessed_ a few months
>back? _That_ was directly science-fictional ...
Have you forgotten that I complimented you on that very thread? It was
on-topic because it directly referenced the novel itself.
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
Jordan S. Bassior
>Have you forgotten that I complimented you on that very thread? It was
>on-topic because it directly referenced the novel itself.
Then I apologize.
Jordan S. Bassior
>Well I share the same bias, but I know the difference between the real
>world and modern fables, for cryin' out loud.
>
>As someone with a moderate interest in Brin kookism, can someone point
>me to one of his Tolkien rants?
I'm a major Tolkien fan, but Brin _does_ have a point regarding Tolkien -- the
sort of blind anti-industrial nostalgia Tolkien displays in his writing is a
very flawed world-view. Tolkien loved his imaginary version of the past, based
on the English rural countryside of the late 19th / early 20th century -- but
that countryside was itself a much more habitable place owing to the Industrial
Revolution (*).
For instance, by Tolkien's youth, the Industrial Revolution had already brought
a high degree of prosperity to even the lower classes, such that they no longer
needed to fear starvation under all but the most exceptional circumstances
(war) and had more than one change of clothes, had furnished homes, and
ordinary table utensils. This doesn't sound like much, but this is more than
the poor had in (say) 1700 (roughly the tech level of The Shire).
Tolkien handwaves around this in the stories by a combination of fantasy
elements (the Dwarves, being uber-craftsmen, are probably capable of
productivity levels amounting to c. 1850, and trade their surpluses for food);
selective observation (Minas Tirith almost certainly has terrible slums, but we
don't see them); and character choices (the only people we get to know well
who'd count as "lower class" are Sam (who has a well-off patron) and Gollum
(who is a crazed wanderer). As for the Shire itself, it's an incredibly fertile
land inhabited by very skilled farmers (they have almost certainly a c.
1750-1850 level of agricultural technology, pretty much everything pre
McCormick reaper), so of _course_ there's no mass starvation.
As for medicine, people in Middle-Earth (being on the average less corrupt, and
remember that this is a world where spiritual health assits physical health)
live longer than people in real pre-industrial societies, and in better health.
This is a fantasy-related handwave, basically.
But, in reality, low tech meant suffering, despair, and early, pointless
deaths. In reality, the Industrial Revolution brought wealth, joy, and hope to
huge segments of the population whose ancestors had never known them.
(*) Despite the fact that by _modern_ standards it would be barely habitable.
Del Cotter
>Del Cotter said:
>>Have you forgotten that I complimented you on that very thread? It was
>>on-topic because it directly referenced the novel itself.
>
>Then I apologize.
No problem. I really did like your post.
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk
Alan Barclay
Johnny1A <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Brin seems to have developed a hatred of _anything_ that hints of the
>supernatural, or that the modern Enlightenment-based philosophies of
>His articles on Star Wars are interesting in this context. I don't
>know what he hates worse, the fact that the Force exists in the Star
>Wars universe, or the idea that there can be more to a decision than
>pure materialist pragmatism.
Of course, in the TPM it's revealed that the force has a biological
origin, and is no longer supernatural.
Margaret Young
<andrew...@earthlink.com> wrote:
>"William T. Hyde" wrote:
>>
>> Guns, Germs, and Steel (Jared Diamond).
>>
>> OK, this is not SF, but GGS should be mandatory for
>> SF writers who are doing species/worldbuilding.
>>
>> I started the work with a bias against it, as some
>> of its arguments had been badly summarized in a PC
>> sort of way, but within a few pages I realized that
>> Diamond was trying for an objective analysis of
>> why some societies got off to an earlier start
>> than others. The title is somewhat misleading,
>> as guns and steel play little role in the book.
>
>Agreed. It really should have been titled _Germs, Geography and
>Domestic Animals_, but that wouldn't have been as catchy.
>
>> Even if we discard, for some reason, Diamond's
>> thesis, there is a wealth of information which
>> alone makes this worth reading.
>
>I'm suspicious of any "I have a theory which explains everything"
>books, and _GG&S_ came close to completely convincing me. There are
>certainly other factors at work, but Diamond proves that the factors
>he concentrates on are very important.
>
>Of course, we won't know for sure until we either a) find some alien
>civilizations to study or b) come across the Lost Colonies of the
>First Diaspora and see how they came out. (I'm trying to think of a
>way to ObSF this to either Chandler's John Grimes novels or John
>Barnes's "springer" books, but I'm failing.)
I had a discussion (last year I think) with a buyer from Border about
that book (GGS). They had not expected it to be a big seller - it did
not receive the type of hype from the publisher that generally goes
with expected winners. It just had incredibly good legs -- the type of
buzz that happens when people tell other people they _Have_ to read a
book.
I think much of it came because Diamond started off with a great
question and provided good answers, but did not come across as arguing
that his answers _had_ be to right -- rather that people should be
investigating these questions better than many had before (but without
being insulting and dismissive of everyone else.
Another good book to read if you want to understand how previously
unrecognized (or incompletely weighed) factors have played an
important role in history is William H. McNeill: Plagues and People.
After reading it you will always bear in mind (in an SF sense) that if
the aliens can eat our food, or us theirs, then we had better factor
in disease.
Of course, H. G. Wells did that a long time ago, but too many SF
writers just ignore or sidestep the issue.
Margaret
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! ==-----
James Bodi
--ISTR that enraged him more, as now the hero Jedi are a hereditary aristocracy....
Johnny1A
Remember I said that Brin did have a point about some of the plot
developments?
Well, the midichlorians are one such. They make little sense. But
the Force probably does remain basically supernatural, or partly so.
Even back in the old trio of movies, the Force was alternatively
described as an 'energy field' and also as aa power that could steer
destinies and sometimes seemed almost conscious.
I found TPM to be a remarkable mix of excellence and garbage, and I'm
_still_ sorting out which was which!
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
What Brin utterly fails to consider is that the unfallen Jedi don't
act as a government. They leave the civilian authority in the hands
of the civilian government, and dedicate themselves to the service of
the society around them.
Brin complains that Lucas doesn't show the process of mundane
democracy as being capable of exposing and overcoming Palpatine's (if
he is Darth Sidious)plots. The trouble is that if we grant for the
story's sake that the Force exists, in that case it would be radically
unbelievable that mundane legal and democratic processes could cope
with Darth Sidious.
All through his rants about the movies, I get the impression that he
wants the Force to go away. He completely misses the point at the end
of Return of the Jedi, when he says that the only thing he liked about
it was that the Force-wielders had no effect on the final outcome,
since it was settled by the military struggle on the part of the
normals.
What he utterly missed was the fact that it was Luke's overcoming the
Emperor that _enabled_ the normals to win a military victory!
To give Brin his due, here are a couple of the things about TPM that I
hated almost as much as he did:
1. The battle scene between the Gungan army and the combat droids.
That was just plain awful!
2. The Pod Racer sequence wasn't bad, it just went on a trifle too
long, and repeated the hoverbike sequence to a degree from ROTJ. I
liked the starting scenes of the Pod Racer sequence though, it brought
to mind Ben Hur (I'm sure Lucas intended just that).
3. Having Vader be the creator of C-3P0 seems to make zero sense.
Shermanlee
Lawrence Person
jsba...@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) wrote:
> But, in reality, low tech meant suffering, despair, and early, pointless
> deaths. In reality, the Industrial Revolution brought wealth, joy, and hope
> to huge segments of the population whose ancestors had never known them.
>
<can of worms>
Well, we know that industrial societies with mass industrialization but without
capitalism can have devestating famines (the Ukraine 1930-33, China 19580-1962).
Could a country with advanced capitalism (widepsread land onwership among the
peasantry combined with low, flat, or non-existant taxes (at least for those
under a certain income or land-ownership level), free trade (at least within the
country) and a strong, non-inflationary currency) avoid famine even without
industrialization? Certainly tropical countries without the advantages of either
have done so (even basket cases like Cuba, who's agriculture seems to have
reverted to pre-industrial levels), but I wonder if a counttry like England
could. I suspect it might be able to, but I haven;t worked out all of the
ramifications. A good story idea in there, I suspect, for someone willing to
pursue it...
</can of worms>
Jordan S. Bassior
>Well, we know that industrial societies with mass industrialization but
without
>capitalism can have devestating famines (the Ukraine 1930-33, China
19580-1962).
Yes. Most definitely.
>Could a country with advanced capitalism (widepsread land onwership among the
>peasantry combined with low, flat, or non-existant taxes (at least for those
>under a certain income or land-ownership level), free trade (at least within
the
>country) and a strong, non-inflationary currency) avoid famine even without
industrialization?
Yes, and there is a good example in medieval European history of one which did.
Merrie Old England, a romanticized version of which served as Tolkien's model
for the Shire.
Medieval England had several advantages over contemporary France. England was
usually under a single, strong royal government, so the pointless horrors of
feudal warfare were usually avoided. Lacking powerful enemies on her borders
(the Scots and Welsh were in normal times merely nuisances) and having
relatively few internal enemies, the English could devote their wealth and
efforts to improving their own standard of livng.
England was well-positioned for trade, and well-served by inlets and rivers (in
pre-industrial times, it was very hard to move bulk goods overland). The
English were thus wealthy, and could moreover import food as needed (either
from other parts of their own country or from overseas).
English agriculture was efficient by medieval standards. There was a strong
squirarchy and yeomanry, and the terms of serfdom were relatively mild during
most of the medieval period (and the institution itself virtually vanished
after the 14th century). As a result, English farmers had every incentive to
improve their lands, and did so to the best of their abilities.
The English population, even by the Late Middle Ages, had an international
reputation for being self-confident and well-fed. Shakespeare's "green and
pleasant land," and Tolkien's "Shire,' thus had a strong grounding in reality.
David Given
Eric D. Berge <eric_berge @ hotmail.com.invalid> writes:
[...]
> Now, I haven't read "Earth" (although I did meet Brin 'round about the
> time it came out, at a mutual friend's barbecue, but that's another
> story), but I'm having alot of trouble visualizing how that would work
> - the plot is resolved by having a character portraying Dionysus
> lowered into the action by a crane?
Well...
SPOILERS
HUGE SPOILERS
HUGE GREAT STEAMING MOUNDS OF SPOILERS
...what happens is that the human race is on the verge of messy extinction
when the spirit of Gaia in the Earth suddenly wakes up and fixes things.
But in the book it actually works. At least, *I* think it does.
Stephina
I'm new and for a while now I thought I had joined the wrong group.
So all this political stuff is temporary?
Cool then I'll keep reading. ;-)
Stephina
-------------------------------------------------
"GSV Three Minds in a Can" <G...@quik.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:729hsKiG...@clara.net...
> Bitstring <u3q6rtk1gjet3ajeq...@4ax.com>, from the
> wonderful person Louann Miller <loua...@yahoo.com> said
> <snip>
>
> >>> But in light of the huge amount of non-sf related debate taking place
here
> >>> should the faq should be changed, or the charter if such a thing
exsists.
> >>> Perhaps we should have something like.
> >>
> >>> "rec.arts.sf.written is a newsgroup for people who like written SF to
talk
> >>> about whatever they feel like, but mainly written SF."
> >>
> >>I don't know if there's a charter, but I would strongly oppose this:
> >>just because the group's _become_ often off-topic doesn't mean that many
> >>of its readers _want_ it to be.
> >
> >I suspect a lot of it is temporary. I also suspect that
> >alt.knitting.allwool, if there is such a group, is having the same
> >problem at the moment.
>
> If 'rec.arts.textiles.quilting' will do, I can confirm that it is also
> knee deep in OT postings and 11/September inspired flamewars, threats,
> and shirt rending.
>
> --
Pete McCutchen
<ste...@najma.astro.psu.edu> wrote:
>> Brin could suck the smooth right off a bowling ball, lately.
>
>Booh!
>His latest book (title "Kiln People" last I heard)
>is quite interesting - very different from his previous work,
>has potential, though I am not totally happy with some of
>the plotting.
>I expect a lot of people will like it, though I don't think
>it is as good as Startide Rising or Earth.
Oddly enough, _Startide Rising_ and _Earth_ are two of my least
favorite early Brins. _Earth_, in particular, I thought sucked a golf
ball through a garden hose. (Note: not an original metaphor.)
_The Uplift War_, now that's vintage Brin, IMHO.
--
Pete McCutchen
Dan Swartzendruber
p.mcc...@worldnet.att.net says...
Agreed. What did you think of Sundiver? It seems to be fairly widely
considered inferior to Startide Rising, although my personal opinion is
the reverse...
Brad Templeton
Johnny1A <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What Brin utterly fails to consider is that the unfallen Jedi don't
>act as a government. They leave the civilian authority in the hands
>of the civilian government, and dedicate themselves to the service of
>the society around them.
Do they? What in the movies shows this. We're told they were the "guardians
of peace and justice" which can mean a lot of different things. We see
they are used as amabassadors when you need to kick some ass, asn they are
greatly feared.
In fact, I believe Lucas is going to show us the bad side of the Jedi.
The Jedi and the light side of the force gained too much power in the
republic. The Jedi are turning a dramatic blind eye to what the audience
knows is the real meaning of "Bring balance to the force." Do the Jedi
feel the force is out of balance, such that somebody is going to come and
restore it? Do they know it means the balance between the light and
dark sides? If not, what do they think it means? (Or will we never get
told that?)
>Brin complains that Lucas doesn't show the process of mundane
>democracy as being capable of exposing and overcoming Palpatine's (if
>he is Darth Sidious)plots. The trouble is that if we grant for the
What do you mean "if he is Darth Sidious?" I mean I know all the
Star Wars books and comics long ago named the Emporor as Palpatine, but
just to make sure that those who only watch the movies would know,
he had McDiarmid do his "emporor" voice when he says "i'll be watching
you, young Jedi" to make it clear. As if having the same actor play
both isn't enough.
Or are you suggesting that Darth Sidious, even though also played by
McDiarmid, is not the same as emporor Palpatine? That he serves
Palpatine?
>
>
>3. Having Vader be the creator of C-3P0 seems to make zero sense.
Darth to 3PO in cloud city: "Obiwan never told you what
happened to your maker."
3PO: He told me enough, he told me you killed him
No 3PO. I am your maker! (procedes to slice 3PO up to remove memory
of event.)
--
The price of excessive vigilence is liberty.
Robert Carnegie
> In article <b3030854.01100...@posting.google.com>,
> Johnny1A <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >What Brin utterly fails to consider is that the unfallen Jedi don't
> >act as a government. They leave the civilian authority in the hands
> >of the civilian government, and dedicate themselves to the service of
> >the society around them.
>
> Do they? What in the movies shows this. We're told they were the "guardians
> of peace and justice" which can mean a lot of different things. We see
> they are used as amabassadors when you need to kick some ass, asn they are
> greatly feared.
Well, there's that whole bit in _Star Wars_ about rescuing an
honest-to-gosh princess, so isn't that your civil government right
there? Back with the unfallen Jedi, they appear to be a
not-for-profit volunteer organisation, not involved with the
Galactic Republic legislature. Lobbyists at the most.
> In fact, I believe Lucas is going to show us the bad side of the Jedi.
> The Jedi and the light side of the force gained too much power in the
> republic. The Jedi are turning a dramatic blind eye to what the audience
> knows is the real meaning of "Bring balance to the force." Do the Jedi
> feel the force is out of balance, such that somebody is going to come and
> restore it? Do they know it means the balance between the light and
> dark sides? If not, what do they think it means? (Or will we never get
> told that?)
This I don't buy. These movies aren't going to tell us that
it's only right that the bad guys get to win as often as the
good guys do. They aren't that sort of movie.
"Bring balance to the Force" is the sort of prophecy which put
the word "Delphic" in the dictionary - the sort where when you
find out what it means, it's too late.
> >Brin complains that Lucas doesn't show the process of mundane
> >democracy as being capable of exposing and overcoming Palpatine's (if
> >he is Darth Sidious)plots. The trouble is that if we grant for the
>
> What do you mean "if he is Darth Sidious?" I mean I know all the
> Star Wars books and comics long ago named the Emporor as Palpatine, but
> just to make sure that those who only watch the movies would know,
> he had McDiarmid do his "emporor" voice when he says "i'll be watching
> you, young Jedi" to make it clear. As if having the same actor play
> both isn't enough.
>
> Or are you suggesting that Darth Sidious, even though also played by
> McDiarmid, is not the same as emporor Palpatine? That he serves
> Palpatine?
Episode Two _is_ "Attack of the Clones" ;-)
I'm not sure if the representation of clones in the comic
_Dark Empire_ and novels _Heir to the Empire_, etc, are
"canonical", but I think it's a fair guess that we're about
to find out. These clones are imperfect but near-exact replicas
of the original person, body (minus scars, no doubt) and soul.
(Let's take a moment here to remember
_Star Trek: The <Price|Fate> of the Phoenix_.
And I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone remembers Andre Norton's
_Android at Arms_, including Ms Norton, but I enjoyed it anyway.)
For what it's worth, I do expect that skilful politician Palpatine
and the later evil Emperor are one and the same person, and not clones
or twin brothers or anything of that sort. I believe Palpatine
is named as the villain in _Star Wars_' "Episode IV" movie titles,
The Story So Far - although those might only have been added on for
re-releases - and the way we're being shown it happening is, by
action movie standards, subtle.
> >3. Having Vader be the creator of C-3P0 seems to make zero sense.
It may make sense later on that the Rebels are making heavy
use of Vader's home-made robot - although when we meet C-3PO,
isn't he just another protocol droid on a Rebel starship [1]?
(Do they strictly need a protocol droid there?)
Having R2-D2 and C-3PO in all of the films is fulfilment of an
old promise by Lucas. It doesn't strictly have to make sense.
[1] Who's reading the BLACK PANTHER comicbook in Marvel Comics, by
Christopher "The other one" Priest? Mostly narrated by the protocol
guy who has to babysit the South African tribal chief/superhero[2] of
that name for four days, and then it snowballs, boy does it ever.
Protocol guy is seriously out of his depth. I think I have a new
insight for rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe. Meanwhile,
www.digital-priest.com is Christopher "The other one" Priest's site.
[2] Turns out he's a tribal chief who was _mistaken_ for a super-hero
by the media, on account of wearing a skintight suit and befriending
Captain America and saving the world a few times and so forth.
> Darth to 3PO in cloud city: "Obiwan never told you what
> happened to your maker."
>
> 3PO: He told me enough, he told me you killed him
>
> No 3PO. I am your maker! (procedes to slice 3PO up to remove memory
> of event.)
Bravo!
Is that scene on the DVD? ;-)
Brad Templeton
>it's only right that the bad guys get to win as often as the
>good guys do. They aren't that sort of movie.
>
>"Bring balance to the Force" is the sort of prophecy which put
>the word "Delphic" in the dictionary - the sort where when you
>find out what it means, it's too late.
Indeed, so what do you think the Jedi think "bring balance to the force"
means? Qui-Gonn seems to think it's a lovely idea. Will we ever
find out in what way they felt the force was out of balance, since
we presume they are not planning for the real balance.
I don't think this phrase is an accident. I think at least some
characters (certainly Palpatine) will advocate that the force is
out of balance with the Pax Jedi. Plus not everybody likes the
Republic, and it seems too large to be effectual.
The fact that he couldn't spend republic credits struck me as a remarkably
stupid plot device. I mean there wasn't anybody on the whole planet he
could use Jedi Mind Power on to do some currency exchange with what one
would presume is the most stable currency in the galaxy?
So it's either a really stupid plot device, or there's a deeper reason
why he couldn't spend that money.
aRJay
>And I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone remembers Andre Norton's
>_Android at Arms_, including Ms Norton, but I enjoyed it anyway.)
Be surprised (in fact I suspect you should be prepared to be very
surprised) I have a copy of the Gollancz hard cover of that book sitting
on the shelf behind me as I type this, it is in with the other 75 books
of hers that I have.
It is also one that is regularly amongst my favourites amongst her
books.
--
aRJay
"In this great and creatorless universe, where so much beautiful has
come to be out of the chance interactions of the basic properties of
matter, it seems so important that we love one another,"
- Lucy Kemnitzer
Johnny1A
>
> It may make sense later on that the Rebels are making heavy
> use of Vader's home-made robot - although when we meet C-3PO,
> isn't he just another protocol droid on a Rebel starship [1]?
> (Do they strictly need a protocol droid there?)
Remember, it wasn't _officially_ a Rebel starship. It was
Senator/Princess Leia Organa's personal transport, slightly analogous
to Air Force One. A protocol droid would be perfectly natural on such
a vessel, used for diplomatic conferences, to keep track of protocol
at official meetings and ceremonies, etc.
In practice, of course, the ship was a Rebel ship, and the Empire knew
it. I have the impression from watching A New Hope that the Empire
has been forced, up until just before the movie opens, to at least pay
a little attention to leftovers from the Republic like due process and
diplomatic immunities. They had a pretty good idea what Leia was
doing, but could prove nothing and had only recently reached the point
that they dared act directly.
Shermanlee
Johnny1A
> In article <b3030854.01100...@posting.google.com>,
> Johnny1A <sherm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >What Brin utterly fails to consider is that the unfallen Jedi don't
> >act as a government. They leave the civilian authority in the hands
> >of the civilian government, and dedicate themselves to the service of
> >the society around them.
>
> Do they? What in the movies shows this. We're told they were the "guardians
> of peace and justice" which can mean a lot of different things. We see
> they are used as amabassadors when you need to kick some ass, asn they are
> greatly feared.
Recall that Chancellor Valorum _requested_ the Jedi to attempt to
mediate the dispute. I don't think the Jedi are at the command of the
Chancellor, save by custom and their own choice. Yes, they're feared,
but they're also respected.
For that matter, given their raw power, if the unfallen Jedi wanted to
seize the government, they certainly could have done so. They had not
done so at the opening of The Phantom Menace.
> In fact, I believe Lucas is going to show us the bad side of the Jedi.
> The Jedi and the light side of the force gained too much power in the
> republic. The Jedi are turning a dramatic blind eye to what the audience
> knows is the real meaning of "Bring balance to the force." Do the Jedi
> feel the force is out of balance, such that somebody is going to come and
> restore it? Do they know it means the balance between the light and
> dark sides? If not, what do they think it means? (Or will we never get
> told that?)
>
> >Brin complains that Lucas doesn't show the process of mundane
> >democracy as being capable of exposing and overcoming Palpatine's (if
> >he is Darth Sidious)plots. The trouble is that if we grant for the
>
> What do you mean "if he is Darth Sidious?" I mean I know all the
> Star Wars books and comics long ago named the Emporor as Palpatine, but
> just to make sure that those who only watch the movies would know,
> he had McDiarmid do his "emporor" voice when he says "i'll be watching
> you, young Jedi" to make it clear. As if having the same actor play
> both isn't enough.
>
> Or are you suggesting that Darth Sidious, even though also played by
> McDiarmid, is not the same as emporor Palpatine? That he serves
> Palpatine?
I'm not sure either way. Clearly Ian McDiarmid plays Sidious and
Palpatine, but that doesn't _prove_ anything. Further, we know from
the 'later' movies that Palpatine will be the Emperor someday (or at
least that's what the entire Galaxy thinks by Luke's time.)
But I think that might be where Lucas is palming an ace. Suppose that
Palpatine, as of The Phantom Menace, is just what he seems? A
politician, ambitious if not corrupt (even that was left in doubt by
the movie, which hinted at a lot of things but definitely established
only a few), with latent Force sensitivity?
One argument for this: if Palpatine is Sidious, why was he able to
stand right next to Mace Windu and Yoda himself, and they sense
nothing wrong? If he is Sidious, I would have thought the Jedi would
sense a tremendous concentration of Dark activity near them. I can
imagine a scene like this, when they first meet the up and coming new
Chancellor:
_"Yoda," Mace Windu said with urgent shock, as Palpatine passed them
in the reception line, "did you sense that?!"
"Yes," the dimunutive Jedi Master said quietly, his ancient face grim,
"sense it I did. Strong with the Dark Side is this Senator."_
On the other hand, if Palpatine is just a latent Force-sensitive, he
isn't that big a deal from the Jedi point of view. Just a potential
Jedi who got overlooked in youth, and is too old to train now. Given
the size and population of the Galaxy, there have to be many such
missed possibles, and encountering one in maturity would not be that
big a deal.
I'm not saying that this is the case, only that it could be. In that
case, Sidious could be someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if
Palpatine turns out to be Sidious' successor as Sith Master. I also
wouldn't be surprised if Sidious and Palpatine are indeed one and the
same. I don't know if Lucas has even decided that for sure as yet.
Shermanlee