A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court
Knight37
person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
as it were the previous era? If you could list titles and author, as well
as a brief description or at least what era the book deals with.
There was a similar series called Guardians of the Flame by Joel
Rosenberg where a bunch of RPG geeks get transported to a fantasy world
and they eventually impact the fantasy world with their modern knowledge.
Something like that would qualify.
Thanks for your suggestions!
--
Knight37
Dreamer
news:Xns950A9F174...@130.133.1.4...
Stirling's "Island in the Sea of Time" trilogy:
_Island in the Sea of Time_
_Against the Tide of Years_
_On the Oceans of Eternity_
The island of Nantucket and its citizenry are mysteriously transported more
than two thousand years into the past. Hijinks ensue
For fun, there's Alan Dean Foster's "Spellsinger" books. Although the
Spellsinger is from our world and is transported to a fantasy world, he
himself has only incidental effects due to his origin. The plot of the first
three books, however, deals with a large cross-contamination from our world
that is shifting the balance of power in a very old rivalry.
D
mike stone
>Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
>person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
>as it were the previous era?
L Sprague De Camp _Lest Darkness Fall_ is the "standard work" on that
particular subject
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
No war is over till the _losers_ say it is
David Johnston
Back in the old days, it was just about standard for people
discovering lost worlds or visiting Venus to come up with the
brilliant idea "Hey! Let's reinvent gunpowder so we can be
big men!"
lal_truckee
>>From: Knight37 knig...@email.com
>
>
>>Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
>>person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
>>as it were the previous era?
>
>
> L Sprague De Camp _Lest Darkness Fall_ is the "standard work" on that
> particular subject
Well, yes: in the self-referential SF genre canon; although an argument
can be made that the aforementioned "Connecticut Yankee" is the rigorous
standard example. Many others have tried their hand, as well - it's a
hazard of the trade.
And the canonical standard counter example to "completely changing
events, modernizing as it were the previous era:" "The Man Who Came
Early" Poul Anderson, 1956
David Ball
>Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
>person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
>as it were the previous era? If you could list titles and author, as well
>as a brief description or at least what era the book deals with.
Leo Frankowski has a series where a modern engineer, Conrad Schwartz,
is stranded in 1231 and has 10 years to turn Medieval Poland into the
most powerful country in the world so that it can repel the Mongol
invasion. Along the way, he also does things like start the equivalent
of the Playboy clubs.
There are several books in the series. It's really interesting, but
some women might be offended by the attitudes nobility have towards
women.
For a list of the books, see the Conrad Stargard series at:
http://www.booksnbytes.com/authors/frankowski_leo.html#QS366
-- David
Wayne Throop
:: Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or
:: future person going back into time and completely changing events,
:: modernizing as it were the previous era? If you could list titles
:: and author, as well as a brief description or at least what era the
:: book deals with.
::
:: There was a similar series called Guardians of the Flame by Joel
:: Rosenberg where a bunch of RPG geeks get transported to a fantasy
:: world and they eventually impact the fantasy world with their modern
:: knowledge. Something like that would qualify.
: "Dreamer" <dre...@dreamstrike.com>
: Stirling's "Island in the Sea of Time" trilogy:
:
: _Island in the Sea of Time_
: _Against the Tide of Years_
: _On the Oceans of Eternity_
:
: The island of Nantucket and its citizenry are mysteriously transported more
: than two thousand years into the past. Hijinks ensue
Another "geeks go to fantasyland" setting is Rick Cook's "Wizardry" series.
"Wizard's Bane", and "The Wizardry <mumble>", with values of mumble of
"compiled", "cursed", "consulted" "quested".
I've only read the first couple; the concept was getting a bit
old on me by then. But up *'til* then, a fun sort of romp. YMMV.
And that reminds me of Lawrence Watt-Evans' "three universes" books,
Out of This World
In the Empire of Shadow
The Reign of the Brown Magician
which sort-of fits (ie, present-day human thrown into odd circumstances,
brings modern-day viewpoint to bear on things), but maybe not so much
as other possibilities. Good books, though, IMO.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Dorothy J Heydt
David Ball <davidbem...@yahoo.com.nospam> wrote:
>There are several books in the series. It's really interesting, but
>some women might be offended by the attitudes nobility have towards
>women.
No, it's not the attitude the nobility have towards women that is
offensive; it's the attitude of Frankowski.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
Dreamer
<djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <ile1d052m9qrs8q1a...@4ax.com>,
> David Ball <davidbem...@yahoo.com.nospam> wrote:
>
>> There are several books in the series. It's really interesting, but
>> some women might be offended by the attitudes nobility have towards
>> women.
>
> No, it's not the attitude the nobility have towards women that is
> offensive; it's the attitude of Frankowski.
SUBSCRIBE
(Actually, all seven of 'em are on my library's online catalog. Now I *have*
to read them.)
D
Konrad Gaertner
Isaac Asimov, _The End of Eternity_ (late 20th c.)
Daniel Keys Moran, _Emerald Eyes_ (mid 21st c.)
Terry Pratchett, _Strata_ (middle ages)
Douglas Adams, _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_
(pre-historic Earth)
Unfortunately, none of those examples actually involve
modernization.
--KG
Daniel Silevitch
Misogyny aside, they're not very well written (IMO), and have little or
no historical accuracy (even before the hero starts mucking with the
timeline). The main villains have all the depth of a Quantum Hall Effect
system[*], and the hero is repeatedly aided/bailed out by his time
travelling relative/deus ex machina.
It's also very misogynistic. The most (in)famous scene features a man who
has pined after one particular women, who has spurned him. He becomes
knighted, which apparently gives him the legal right to rape her, which he
does. This is regarded as a good thing by everyone in the immediate
vicinity. Post-rape, the victim also regards it as a good thing. They get
married and live Happily Ever After.
Don't waste your time.
-dms
[*] Very, very 2-dimensional. Thin enough that an electron feels squeezed.
David Tate
>
> And the canonical standard counter example to "completely changing
> events, modernizing as it were the previous era:" "The Man Who Came
> Early" Poul Anderson, 1956
Or "Flirgleflip", by William Tenn.
David Tate
pamurphy70
> person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
> as it were the previous era? If you could list titles and author, as well
> as a brief description or at least what era the book deals with.
>
that tells of an English nurse, who is in Scotland in 1945, just after
WWII, who falls through some standing stones and ends up in the year
1743. The nurse and the hero of the story try to stop Bonnie Prince
Charlie's uprising in 1745. However, her books are found in the
romance section of most bookstores. But Gabaldon is a very good
descriptive writer and there are some very funny bits, as well as
exciting adventures.
There is also 1633 by John Ringo, where a town is carried back to 1633
medieval Germany.
Bill Reich
Eric Flint. Spelling is hard.
Will in New Haven
--
This hand will raise now.
There is no I to do it;
The cards themselves act.
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David Ball
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <ile1d052m9qrs8q1a...@4ax.com>,
>David Ball <davidbem...@yahoo.com.nospam> wrote:
>
>>There are several books in the series. It's really interesting, but
>>some women might be offended by the attitudes nobility have towards
>>women.
>
>No, it's not the attitude the nobility have towards women that is
>offensive; it's the attitude of Frankowski.
I've always suspected that those books were more of a personal fantasy
of the author.
[spoilers ahead]
There were some aspects that I liked, such as the horse that wasn't a
horse, and the Catholic priest that he meets early on. He confides
everything to the priest and the priest swears him to secrecy about
the time travel and writes to Rome to see what to do about it. Letters
took a long time to get anywhere. In each book, the letter comes back
wanting a report on the matter from the next higher up person in the
Catholic hierarchy. Due to the travel time of the letters, the Priest
has always been promoted and it's him who gets the letter back asking
him to investigate. By the time of the last book I read, the priest
was one step below Pope.
-- David
William December Starr
gae...@aol.com said:
>> Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or
>> future person going back into time and completely changing events,
>> modernizing as it were the previous era? If you could list titles
>> and author, as well as a brief description or at least what era
>> the book deals with. [Knight37]
> Isaac Asimov, _The End of Eternity_ (late 20th c.)
> Daniel Keys Moran, _Emerald Eyes_ (mid 21st c.)
> Terry Pratchett, _Strata_ (middle ages)
> Douglas Adams, _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_
> (pre-historic Earth)
_Emerald Eyes_? Yes, there are a few time travelers hanging around
the edges of the story and one of them does something important in
the vignette that opens the novel [1], but I really don't think the
book qualifies for the category that Knight37 asked for.
1: Basically, he bootstraps his whole bloodline into existence
by surreptitiously interfering with a genetic-engineering
experiment to create his own great-to-the-Nth grandfather in
the equivalent of a petri dish. (This is not a spoiler
since, as I said, it happens right at the beginning of the
book.) It's not like the time traveler was "modernizing"
the 2020s though; he was just closing a causal loop.
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
William December Starr
"Bill Reich" <willre...@yahoo.com> said:
>> There is also 1633 by John Ringo, where a town is carried
>> back to 1633 medieval Germany. [pamurphy70]
>
> Eric Flint. Spelling is hard.
In fact, _1633_ (by Flint and David Weber) is a sequel to
(surprise!) _1632_ (by Flint alone), the latter being the year
that the town of Grantville, West Virginia arrived in.
Additionally, Flint's edited an anthology called _Ring of Fire_,
the stories in which are set in that same, er, setting.
pamurphy70
> pamur...@earthlink.net (pamurphy70) wrote:
> >Knight37 <knig...@email.com> wrote in message news:<Xns950A9F174...@130.133.1.4>...
> >> Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
>
>
> >
> >medieval Germany.
>
> Eric Flint. Spelling is hard.
> Will in New Haven
>
> --
>
> This hand will raise now.
> There is no I to do it;
> The cards themselves act.
>
>
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short-term memory loss. Ah Me! Next time I will look at the book to
see who wrote it.
Mad Hamish
wrote:
anybody want to make bets on how it'd go if Ringo had written it?
Nancy Lebovitz
Knight37 <knig...@email.com> wrote:
>Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
>person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
>as it were the previous era? If you could list titles and author, as well
>as a brief description or at least what era the book deals with.
_The Technicolor Time Machine_ by Keith Laumer.
--
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
"I went to Iraq and all I got was this lousy gas price"
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix5.netaxs.com> wrote:
>
>
>In article <Xns950A9F174...@130.133.1.4>,
>Knight37 <knig...@email.com> wrote:
>>Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
>>person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
>>as it were the previous era? If you could list titles and author, as well
>>as a brief description or at least what era the book deals with.
>
>_The Technicolor Time Machine_ by Keith Laumer.
That was Harry Harrison, wasn't it? And the key was what 'they completely
changed events' meant..
Ted
Michael Stemper
>_The Technicolor Time Machine_ by Keith Laumer.
Harry Harrison, actually.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This sentence no verb.
GSV Three Minds in a Can
person Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> said
_The Paradox Men_ by Charles Harness .. although again, not really
modernization, more like a radical overhaul of the whole ethos of our
civilization, iirc.
--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.
Petri Kokko
> Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
> person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
> Rosenberg where a bunch of RPG geeks get transported to a fantasy world
> and they eventually impact the fantasy world with their modern knowledge.
> Something like that would qualify.
Ok, these are from my bookshelf:
Adams, Robert: Castaways in Time. A group of 20th century humans
transported to an alternate 17th century England (alternate as in
not quite the same as ours, divergence set at 451AD). IMHO this
series isn't very well written. The first book is ok, then it's
downhill...
Anderson, Poul: Three Hearts And Three Lions. Modern day soldier
transported to a fantasy land. Doesn't do very much in "modernizing",
but as a Heroic Knight will pass as adequate. :-)
Asprin, Robert & Evans, Linda: For King And Country. A SAS soldier,
an IRA activist and an Orange activist get their minds transplanted
on characters of King Arthur's court. The Arthurian world is
described realistically as in "could have been so" so don't expect
any "legend stuff". I liked this book. However, there's an earlier
book with almost exactly the same initial setting by Dafydd Ab Hugh
complete with the SAS soldier and IRA... I have no idea whether
one stole from the other (and which from whom) or if it's just one
of those weird coincidences. IMHO Asprins and Evans book "works"
better. More "modernizing" stuff, too.
de Camp, L. Sprague: 20th century historian transported to 6th
century Rome. Many consider this The Classic. The protagonist
wreaks major havoc with the time line. Recommended.
Cook, Rick: Wizardry Series. A UNIX geek is snapped to a fantasy
world where magic spells work like computer programs. The concept
is fun and I liked the first and maybe the second book, but as
with many series if you do some things too many times over and
over it gets pretty boring after a while.
Daley, Brian: Coramonde Series. An APC crew is transported to a
fantasy world with their limited supply of modern weapons. Note
that the author has died so there won't be any sequels.
Flint, Eric: 1632-verse. A West-Virginian town gets transported
to 17th century Germany. This series is written by many authors
with Eric Flint being the "inventor". 1633 by Weber (co-author)
was good as it got a bit more darker in tone, but that's
probably a matter of taste.
Forstchen, William: Lost Regiment Series. An American Civil War
regiment (Union) gets gated into another world. Probably another
planet in our Universe but not really said so anywhere. No magic,
and the world has a medieval tech level with many other "lost
groups" of humans. Plus the aliens who rule the world (but also
with a medieval tech level). First books quite good and enjoyable,
but the author runs out of ideas after the 5th or 6th book.
Frankowski, Leo: Conrad Stargard Series. Our hero wanders
accidentally into a time machine and enters 13th century Poland.
And quickly modernizes it and takes over the entire world. Well,
perhaps not, but I'm not exaggerating very much. If you like that
kind of stuff then fine, otherwise avoid like plague. :-) Female
readers probably will get disgusted with this author.
Gentle, Mary: Grunts. I'm not sure whether this qualifies but it
sure is a funny read. Your standard tribe of orcs in a standard
good vs. evil fantasy land stumbles upon a dragon's hoard that
also includes... modern weapons. And the hoard is protected with
the curse of "whatever you steal you shall become". The orc tribe
slowly starts changing into the equivalent of a U.S marine corps
with its professional attitudes, traditions, honor, etc. but the
curse also keeps clashing with how the orcs look at things. In
this book the evil are the good guys (sort of) and the good heroes
in their shining armor are downright bastards.
Harrison, Harry: A Rebel In Time. A Southern Sympathetic travels
back to 1851 with the blueprints of the Sten machine gun. The
hero follows trying to stop him. Ok, I guess...
ab Hugh, Dafydd: Arthur Warlord. See "For King And Country" by
Asprin. It's the same plot.
May, Julian: The Many-Colored Land. Misfits of a future Earth are
gated into 6,000,000 BC to live their life happily ever after.
This series is quite dark. It's good, too. However, stop reading
when you have finished the original four books that make the
series complete. I don't know what happened to Julian May after
that but the prequels and sequels are IMHO utter rubbish and
completely ruin the story.
Pournelle, Jerry: Janissaries (sequel "Tran" co-authored by Roland
Green). A group of American soldiers are shanghaied by aliens who
dump them into a medieval-like world. Be warned that the story
doesn't get finished. I'm still waiting a sequel to be written,
but it's been so many years that this probably won't happen...
Stirling, Steve: Island In The Sea Of Time. The island of
Nantucket gets transported to 1200 BC. This series is very good.
AFAIK there are currently three books plus one short story.
Turtledove, Harry: The Guns of The South. Afrikaaner outcasts
steal a time machine and introduce AK-47s to the American Civil
War. This is a true master piece written by a Turtledove who
still had ideas left.
Watt-Evans, Lawrence: Worlds Of Shadow. Modern people travelling
between three worlds, our Earth, a fantasy realm, and a Flash
Gordon stylish space opera universe. However, don't be deceived.
This series isn't for the faint hearted as things get ugly very
quickly in Watt-Evansian realms and the heroes are very mortal,
indeed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
petri...@no.spam.thank-you
D. Barrington
: Knight37 <knig...@email.com> wrote in message news:<Xns950A9F174...@130.133.1.4>...
:> Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
:> person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
:> as it were the previous era? If you could list titles and author, as well
:> as a brief description or at least what era the book deals with.
: There is also 1633 by John Ringo, where a town is carried back to 1633
: medieval Germany.
You are thinking of _1632_ by Eric Flint and its sequel _1633_ by
Eric Flint and Devid Weber. This is turning into a shared-universe
sort of project -- you can learn more on www.baen.com if you like.
The first two of these were, in RAH's phrasing, well worth the beer
money I spent on them. They could have been better if the 17th-century
characters had been more convincingly non-modern.
Dave MB
D. Barrington
: In article <bRfAc.1187$Rp4.6...@monger.newsread.com>,
Risking spoilers, I'll mention that _The Proteus Operation_ has a similar
definition of "they completely changed events". That's James Hogan, who
has written some completely insane stuff but actually did pretty well here.
I think he's very bad at creating characters, and so benefited in _Proteus_
from being able to use the historical Churchill and Einstein, among other
people.
Summary of _Proteus_: At the opening of WWII, rival groups of time travelers
attempt to influence history. Our heroes are from a beleagured Nazi-victory
1970's USA, and the villains are of course helping the Nazis toward that
future...
Dave MB
Damien R. Sullivan
>May, Julian: The Many-Colored Land. Misfits of a future Earth are
>gated into 6,000,000 BC to live their life happily ever after.
>This series is quite dark. It's good, too. However, stop reading
>when you have finished the original four books that make the
>series complete. I don't know what happened to Julian May after
>that but the prequels and sequels are IMHO utter rubbish and
>completely ruin the story.
I'd partially disagree; I and many others think the two books of
_Intervention_ were pretty good. The final trilogy, though, was increasing
disappointing. The Metapsychic Rebellion on page didn't live up the hints
given in the Pliocene Saga.
>Stirling, Steve: Island In The Sea Of Time. The island of
>Nantucket gets transported to 1200 BC. This series is very good.
>AFAIK there are currently three books plus one short story.
Short story?
May quotes below:
"And what about you? At least my flaw is grand, while yours is merely
pathetic." -- Marc Remillard
-- Julian May, _The Adversary_
~
"We Little Folk are only a simple barbarian nation, though, and all this
high technology of yours is a radical pill to swallow."
-"Our idea of wild innovation is using domestic animals for transport."
--"And captured Milieu weaponry for...self-defense."
-- Julian May, _The Adversary_
~
"If I were not a man of peace I'd coerce the three of you to quivering
jellyfish and get to the bottom of this."
-- Julian May, _The Adversary_
~
"It was no sin, only a failure. 'And even if my troop fell thence
vanquished, yet to have attempted a lofty enterprise is still a trophy.'"
-"Forty-two years in Holy Orders, you hear all the sins in the Lexicon.
But angelism! Now there's a genuine rarey."
-- Julian May, _The Adversary_
"Chinese? _Chinese?_ Can't the flaming idiots recognize a flight of
UFOs when they see one?"
-- Julian May, _Intervention_
-xx- Damien X-)
Knight37
news:casgct$qm2$1...@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi:
> Knight37:
>> Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or
>> future person going back into time and completely changing events,
>> modernizing
> ...
>> Rosenberg where a bunch of RPG geeks get transported to a fantasy
>> world and they eventually impact the fantasy world with their modern
>> knowledge. Something like that would qualify.
>
> Ok, these are from my bookshelf:
[ snip long list ]
You must have a very large bookshelf!
Thanks for all the suggestions, and thanks to everyone who responded to
this thread, apparently there's a lot of stories out there that fit my
request.
Knight37
Petri Kokko
>>Stirling, Steve: Island In The Sea Of Time. The island of
>>AFAIK there are currently three books plus one short story
>
"Blood Wolf" in the anthology "The First Heroes"
(ISBN 0765302861).
-----------------------------------------------------------------
petri...@no.spam.thank-you
David Loewe, Jr.
<petri...@kotiportti.fi> wrote:
>Pournelle, Jerry: Janissaries (sequel "Tran" co-authored by Roland
>Green).
ObNitPick: Janissaries - Clan And Crown is the sequel. Tran is a combo
of Clan And Crown and *it's* sequel Janissaries - Storms Of Victory.
>A group of American soldiers are shanghaied by aliens who
>dump them into a medieval-like world. Be warned that the story
>doesn't get finished. I'm still waiting a sequel to be written,
>but it's been so many years that this probably won't happen...
On his web site, Chaos Manor In Perspective
(http:///www.jerrypournelle.com), Dr. Pournelle periodically claims to
have the fourth book scheduled. However, observationally, he and Niven
seem preoccupied with churning out the Burning <fill in the blank>
series of fantasy books set in Niven's The Magic Goes Away setting.
--
"Money is truthful. If a man speaks of his honor, make
him pay cash."
-Lazarus Long
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Petri Kokko <petri...@kotiportti.fi> wrote:
>
>
>Damien R. Sullivan:
>>>Stirling, Steve: Island In The Sea Of Time. The island of
>...
>>>AFAIK there are currently three books plus one short story
>>
>> Short story?
>
>"Blood Wolf" in the anthology "The First Heroes"
>(ISBN 0765302861).
>
"Riding Shotgun to Armageddon" in _Armageddon_. Not clear to me if that
is an excerpt or completely standalone..
Ted
J.B. Moreno
> Knight37:
> > Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
> > person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
> ...
> > Rosenberg where a bunch of RPG geeks get transported to a fantasy world
> > and they eventually impact the fantasy world with their modern knowledge.
> > Something like that would qualify.
>
> Ok, these are from my bookshelf:
>
> Adams, Robert: Castaways in Time. A group of 20th century humans
> transported to an alternate 17th century England (alternate as in
> not quite the same as ours, divergence set at 451AD). IMHO this
> series isn't very well written. The first book is ok, then it's
> downhill...
Yeah, as I understand it, he was dying at the time and Baen was being
charitable....I don't think that Adams ever had a definite direction for
it, and that shows, as does his particular political quirks...
--
JBM
"Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg
Anthony Nance
>person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
>as a brief description or at least what era the book deals with.
>
>and they eventually impact the fantasy world with their modern knowledge.
>Something like that would qualify.
I think H Beam Piper's Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen would qualify.
(Mostly or totally compiled in "The Complete Paratime".)
Tony
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <40D0E857...@worldnet.att.net>,
> gae...@aol.com said:
>
> >> Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or
> >> future person going back into time and completely changing events,
> >> modernizing as it were the previous era? If you could list titles
> >> and author, as well as a brief description or at least what era
> >> the book deals with. [Knight37]
>
> > Isaac Asimov, _The End of Eternity_ (late 20th c.)
> > Daniel Keys Moran, _Emerald Eyes_ (mid 21st c.)
> > Terry Pratchett, _Strata_ (middle ages)
> > Douglas Adams, _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_
> > (pre-historic Earth)
>
> _Emerald Eyes_? Yes, there are a few time travelers hanging around
> the edges of the story and one of them does something important in
> the vignette that opens the novel [1], but I really don't think the
> book qualifies for the category that Knight37 asked for.
And there was a later scene (the car chase) with a bit of fencing
between the time travellers.
And these are advanced, *intelligent* time travellers; they're not
going to wander about throwing anachronisms around, they're going to
do the absolute minimum necessary to achieve their goals. (One of
them even comments about "there are no unnecessary actions" or
something like that.)
Still not a good example of what was asked for, but neither are my
other suggestions ;)
And don't I get something for finding an example of time travellers
modernizing our future?
--KG
Rex F. May
pl...@newsreaders.com wrote on 6/17/04 1:06 PM:
What quirks are those?
Petri Kokko
> "Riding Shotgun to Armageddon" in _Armageddon_. Not clear to me if that
> is an excerpt or completely standalone..
I didn't know about that one. Thank you! (It does appear to be
a genuine story in its own right.) Now I have just to determine
whether the story is worth £3.26. Too bad they don't sell
custom made anthologies as they do music cds... :-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
petri...@no.spam.thank-you
J.B. Moreno
> J.B. Moreno at pl...@newsreaders.com wrote on 6/17/04 1:06 PM:
>
> > Petri Kokko <petri...@kotiportti.fi> wrote:
-snip-
> >> Ok, these are from my bookshelf:
> >>
> >> Adams, Robert: Castaways in Time. A group of 20th century humans
> >> transported to an alternate 17th century England (alternate as in
> >> not quite the same as ours, divergence set at 451AD). IMHO this
> >> series isn't very well written. The first book is ok, then it's
> >> downhill...
> >
> > Yeah, as I understand it, he was dying at the time and Baen was being
> > charitable....I don't think that Adams ever had a definite direction for
> > it, and that shows, as does his particular political quirks...
>
> What quirks are those?
He didn't like some political groups....
@hotmail.com.invalid Eric D. Berge
<petri...@kotiportti.fi> wrote:
>Pournelle, Jerry: Janissaries (sequel "Tran" co-authored by Roland
>Green). A group of American soldiers are shanghaied by aliens who
>dump them into a medieval-like world. Be warned that the story
>doesn't get finished. I'm still waiting a sequel to be written,
>but it's been so many years that this probably won't happen...
Huh?
The sequels with Roland Green were "Crown And Crown" and "Storms Of
Victory", each of which sucked even worse than the original, which
Lord knows wasn't very good.
Brad Sims
> And don't I get something for finding an example of time travellers
> modernizing our future?
Here is your RASFW No-Prize...
....
{ no.}
||
__||__
--
"Elements of the movie seem not merely half-baked, but never to have seen
the inside of an oven."
- Roger Ebert on "No Such Thing"
Bill Woods
It's an excerpt from the third Nantucket book. The part about
fighting the Egyptians at ... the Battle of Armageddon.
Eric Flint's 163x series is up to the first of several _1634: <subtitle>_s
Flint and David Drake have also written 4/5ths of a series about
time traveling AIs trying to destroy/save the world in the Sixth century.
Kurt Vonnegut's _The Sirens of Titan_ and Hayford Pierce's
"High Yield Bondage" involve aliens stranded on contemporary
Earth, trying to advance the local technology far enough to
repair their starships. (FTL is effectively equivalent to
time-travel, right?)
--
Bill Woods
"And thus have these naked Nantucketers, these sea hermits,
issuing from their ant-hill in the sea, overrun and conquered
the watery world like so many Alexanders; parcelling out among
them the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans,"
-- Herman Melville
John G. Morrison
>
>>Pournelle, Jerry: Janissaries (sequel "Tran" co-authored by Roland
>>Green). A group of American soldiers are shanghaied by aliens who
>>dump them into a medieval-like world. Be warned that the story
>>doesn't get finished. I'm still waiting a sequel to be written,
>>but it's been so many years that this probably won't happen...
>
> Huh?
>
> The sequels with Roland Green were "Crown And Crown" and "Storms Of
> Victory", each of which sucked even worse than the original, which
> Lord knows wasn't very good.
>
IIRC.
Mike Van Pelt
I liked "Janissaries" pretty well, and I was rather put out that
it didn't have an ending. "Clan and Crown" was pretty dire.
I suspect it was really "By Roland Green, based on some
suggestions by Jerry Pournelle." Whatever "Jannisaries" had,
C&C most emphatically lacked it. I didn't read "Storms of
Victory", it featured Roland Green's name more prominently.
Jerry Pournelle has dropped hints from time to time on his blog
that he's working on another book in this series that would
actually be by him. If it *FINISHES* the story, I'll read it.
--
"Centralization doesn't scale." Mike Van Pelt
-- Eric S. Raymond mvp at calweb.com
KE6BVH
Wayne Throop
: I liked "Janissaries" pretty well,
ObFreeAssociation: "The High Crusade", by Poul Anderson
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Dana Blackwell
> Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or
> future person going back into time and completely changing events,
> author, as well as a brief description or at least what era the book
> deals with.
>
> world and they eventually impact the fantasy world with their modern
> knowledge. Something like that would qualify.
Ru Emerson's Night Threads series, where two sisters and one sister's
son get transported to, IMS, a pre-industrial world.
I have a sneaking fondness for some of Emerson's stuff (Tales of Nedao
and Princess of Flames) that I read when I were young, and I remember
enjoying the first book or two of Night Threads, but I stopped reading
after, I think, book 3. Both sisters, of course, marry noblemen or kings
or something and the son is a gung-ho capitalist/spy who single-handedly
upgrades the world's economy so he can reproduce sneakers. OK, that's
probably unfair, and very likely inaccurate, given it's been about 12
years since I read them.
Mangled Cordelia quote (can't be arsed to go upstairs and get the book):
"Democrats don't have a problem with aristocracy, as long as they get to
be aristocrats."
--
Dana
Eric Flint
"Nancy Lebovitz" <na...@unix5.netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:bRfAc.1187$Rp4.6...@monger.newsread.com...
> In article <Xns950A9F174...@130.133.1.4>,
> Knight37 <knig...@email.com> wrote:
> >Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
> >person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
> >as it were the previous era? If you could list titles and author, as well
> >as a brief description or at least what era the book deals with.
>
> _The Technicolor Time Machine_ by Keith Laumer.
I think you're mixing that up with another novel (by Harry Harrison, IIRC).
Laumer wrote THE GREAT TIME MACHINE HOAX.
Eric
William December Starr
"Petri Kokko" <petri...@kotiportti.fi> said:
> Daley, Brian: Coramonde Series. An APC crew is transported to a
> fantasy world with their limited supply of modern weapons. Note
> that the author has died so there won't be any sequels.
More data: the two books were _The Doomfarers of Coramonde_ and _The
Starfollowers of Coramonde_, and they formed a pretty-much complete
story; it's not like the second one ends on a cliff-hanger or
anything.
Additionally, the adventures of the APC and its crew (plucked out of
the middle of a Vietnam War firefight that they were losing) only
comprise part of the first book (a large part, to be sure); the
duology is much about the native characters as well as one of the
survivors of that APC crew who later returns to that fantasy world.
Good stuff.
[ *snip* ]
> ab Hugh, Dafydd: Arthur Warlord. See "For King And Country" by
> Asprin. It's the same plot.
I've never read anything by this author; I mention him only because
you've alphabetized him into the list under "H" but I think that it's
supposed to be under "A", the same way that "J. van Random" gets
filed under "V". (Also, a micro-nitpick: it's _Arthur War Lord_,
three words.)
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
Robert A. Woodward
IIRC, that was a reprint of a Baen edition.
--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw
Nancy Lebovitz
Thanks. I believe you're right--I was sure that Laumer had written
something of the sort.
The Laumer has a utopian society built somewhat on classical ideals,
didn't it?
--
--
Nancy Lebovitz http://www.nancybuttons.com
"I went to Iraq and all I got was this lousy gas price"
http://livejournal.com/users/nancylebov
John M. Gamble
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix5.netaxs.com> wrote:
>In article <AvSdnRSsnKz...@comcast.com>,
>Eric Flint <efl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>"Nancy Lebovitz" <na...@unix5.netaxs.com> wrote in message
>>news:bRfAc.1187$Rp4.6...@monger.newsread.com...
>>> In article <Xns950A9F174...@130.133.1.4>,
>>> Knight37 <knig...@email.com> wrote:
>>> >Can you name some stories (or novels) that deal with a modern or future
>>> >person going back into time and completely changing events, modernizing
>>> >as it were the previous era? If you could list titles and author, as well
>>> >as a brief description or at least what era the book deals with.
>>>
>>> _The Technicolor Time Machine_ by Keith Laumer.
>>
>>I think you're mixing that up with another novel (by Harry Harrison, IIRC).
>>Laumer wrote THE GREAT TIME MACHINE HOAX.
>
>Thanks. I believe you're right--I was sure that Laumer had written
>something of the sort.
>
>The Laumer has a utopian society built somewhat on classical ideals,
>didn't it?
Yup. Somewhat smugly utopian, but they had reason for it.
--
-john
February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.
David Tate
> Kurt Vonnegut's _The Sirens of Titan_ and Hayford Pierce's
> "High Yield Bondage" involve aliens stranded on contemporary
> Earth, trying to advance the local technology far enough to
> repair their starships.
See also Sturgeon's "Tiny and the Monster".
David Tate
Joe Bernstein
<bar...@fiji.cs.umass.edu> wrote:
> You are thinking of _1632_ by Eric Flint and its sequel _1633_ by
> Eric Flint and Devid Weber. This is turning into a shared-universe
> sort of project -- you can learn more on www.baen.com if you like.
>
> The first two of these were, in RAH's phrasing, well worth the beer
> money I spent on them. They could have been better if the 17th-century
> characters had been more convincingly non-modern.
This is definitely a major flaw in the series so far, but I think
it's actually part of Flint's *point*. He's doing at least one of:
a) "People are all basically similar at heart."
and/or
b) "*These* people are very close to modern already."
I'm not sure which, but on the second point, at least, he's got a
reasonably valid claim. As the past goes, the earlier 17th
century is not the howling unknown wilderness, and its people
can make sense to us. He sets the books in Germany at least
partly to defuse the huge religious differences by giving us
people who have been burned out on sectarian strife.
I would still feel *much* happier if he and/or his co-authors
had any capacity to get inside the fanatics who are so copiously
represented in our history's version of that period. From what
I understand of the contemporary papacy, it's not a *huge*
stretch to have the Pope treating the Americans with respect,
but it cripples one of the main possible sources of Otherness.
We see very little of the bigoted Jews of Amsterdam, and nothing
of them from the inside; while Richelieu does appear as a POV
character, it's not to any great extent, and his fanaticism seems
clearly more political than religious in character anyway.
Meanwhile Bishop Laud is presented as, um, some sort of robot,
or something - I cringe every time I read the one scene in which
he appears, he's so entirely not human in it.
When I first read <1633>, and learned of the upcoming anthology,
I thought that my willingness to keep reading the series would be
redeemed if it featured a story about the first uptime-born
American to become an Inquisitor. Well, OK, that's mighty
specific, but you get my point. Well, didn't happen. I do find
some of the other stuff in that book interesting, but this basic
weakness, that the 17th-century characters just aren't different
enough, remains unchanged, if not strengthened.
Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein, bookseller and writer j...@sfbooks.com
<http://www.panix.com/~josephb/>
Joe Bernstein
articles appear separated from what they follow up to in my
thread trees is not simply a missing References header. Hmmm.)
In article <car6np$onp$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
> In fact, _1633_ (by Flint and David Weber) is a sequel to
> (surprise!) _1632_ (by Flint alone), the latter being the year
> that the town of Grantville, West Virginia arrived in.
No, actually. When I read the next book you mention, I got very
confused, and went back and looked carefully at the chronology.
(That next book appears to contain two first Christmases, you
see.) Anyway, they explicitly arrive in 1631, sometime in May
or June. <1632> covers a reasonably long bite of time thereafter,
hence the title.
> Additionally, Flint's edited an anthology called _Ring of Fire_,
> the stories in which are set in that same, er, setting.
And now the first of *five* projected books set in 1634 has
appeared, which is going to require Baen to do something about
titling, if you ask me. The one that's out is <1634: The
Galileo Gambit>, I think. Still to come are books about
events in the Baltic, in England, in central Germany, and in
Bohemia, very roughly. The first two sequel <1633>, the other
two (like <The Galileo Gambit>) sequel stories in <Ring of Fire>.
I believe all but one have co-authors; <The Galileo Gambit> is
Flint and Andrew Dennis, the Baltic one will be Flint and Weber,
and I forget the rest.
I'm still waiting for the book about events in China... Well,
greedy, that's me. But I think that Our Intrepid Heroes actually
have very little time left if they want to do anything to prevent
the Manchu conquest, so I'm not just pulling China out of a PC
hat; I'm genuinely curious whether they're a) aware of and b)
interested in that situation.
John G. Morrison
> had any capacity to get inside the fanatics who are so copiously
> represented in our history's version of that period. From what
> I understand of the contemporary papacy, it's not a *huge*
> stretch to have the Pope treating the Americans with respect,
> but it cripples one of the main possible sources of Otherness.
> We see very little of the bigoted Jews of Amsterdam, and nothing
> of them from the inside; while Richelieu does appear as a POV
> character, it's not to any great extent, and his fanaticism seems
> clearly more political than religious in character anyway.
> Meanwhile Bishop Laud is presented as, um, some sort of robot,
> or something - I cringe every time I read the one scene in which
> he appears, he's so entirely not human in it.
>
and ambitions, often his own idea of what was best for France,
overwhelming any other consideration. If a policy made him make peace
with England, even though the Pope was still spouting anti-English
rhetoric, he would and in the books he did. He used murder, blackmail
and all the other tools of the trade in ensuring France's place on the
world stage. I wouldn't find it hard to have seen him making peace with
Muslims of the era to push his agenda forward.
> When I first read <1633>, and learned of the upcoming anthology,
> I thought that my willingness to keep reading the series would be
> redeemed if it featured a story about the first uptime-born
> American to become an Inquisitor. Well, OK, that's mighty
> specific, but you get my point. Well, didn't happen. I do find
> some of the other stuff in that book interesting, but this basic
> weakness, that the 17th-century characters just aren't different
> enough, remains unchanged, if not strengthened.
>
> Joe Bernstein
>
Well, the majority of the people in the town are not Catholic and that
would be a pretty important requirement to becoming a Church Inquisitor.
Second, they are along in the 3rd year of their permanent exile into the
past, nowhere near enough time for even the most zealously devout
American Catholic to have entered into the inquistion as anything else
but a victim of it.
As for them not being much different, why should they be so dramatically
different to be interesting? I mean in general people haven't changed
much in the last 1000 years or so, at least in their general behavior.
Petri Kokko
> I'm not sure which, but on the second point, at least, he's got a
> reasonably valid claim. As the past goes, the earlier 17th
> century is not the howling unknown wilderness, and its people
> can make sense to us. He sets the books in Germany at least
> partly to defuse the huge religious differences by giving us
> people who have been burned out on sectarian strife.
Oh, I agree, people as people aren't that different now as they
were in 40,000 B.C. Of course, culture and technology *do* matter
but still too many authors, perhaps unknowingly, tend to equate
intelligence with knowledge. There are plenty of stories where the
time traveller seems to be the only one with any capability of
reasoning and common sense... Earlier people were definitely not
any more stupid than we are unless you go waaay back. Flint hasn't
fallen into that trap and has IMHO done an adequate job of
describing the massive amount of opportunities, for *all* sides,
exploding from the introduction of modern tech.
My complaint about the series is rather that Flint seems to be an
incorrigible optimist. Everything works out *too* well for the
people of Grantville. That much luck sort of bumps against
plausibility and your suspension of belief. The first book, 1632,
is especially guilty of this. Fortunately the shared universe
concept somewhat corrects this as other people advance the plots.
Besides, the shared universe concept is probably the only way you
can even hope to manage plausibly the explosion of butterfly
effects in ISOT stories.
------------------------------------------------------------------
petri...@no.spam.thankyou
J.B. Moreno
-snip Eric Flint and town being sent back to 1632-
> My complaint about the series is rather that Flint seems to be an
> incorrigible optimist. Everything works out *too* well for the
> people of Grantville. That much luck sort of bumps against
> plausibility and your suspension of belief. The first book, 1632,
> is especially guilty of this. Fortunately the shared universe
> concept somewhat corrects this as other people advance the plots.
Yes to all of this.
I think the problem stems from the fact that it wasn't meant to be a
series to begin with, and so he went a bit overboard in leaving them in
a happy position. While the later books aren't grim affairs, they are
no longer so happy-go-lucky.
> Besides, the shared universe concept is probably the only way you
> can even hope to manage plausibly the explosion of butterfly
> effects in ISOT stories.
Yeah.
Richard R. Hershberger
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:37:31 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
> Heydt) wrote:
>
> >In article <ile1d052m9qrs8q1a...@4ax.com>,
> >David Ball <davidbem...@yahoo.com.nospam> wrote:
> >
> >>There are several books in the series. It's really interesting, but
> >>some women might be offended by the attitudes nobility have towards
> >>women.
> >
> >No, it's not the attitude the nobility have towards women that is
> >offensive; it's the attitude of Frankowski.
>
> I've always suspected that those books were more of a personal fantasy
> of the author.
...which wouldn't necessarily be a Bad Thing, except that his
fantasies seem to center on having sex with numerous fourteen year old
girls.
Joe Bernstein
J.B. Moreno <pl...@newsreaders.com> wrote:
> Petri Kokko <petri...@kotiportti.fi> wrote:
> > My complaint about the series is rather that Flint seems to be an
> > incorrigible optimist. Everything works out *too* well for the
> > people of Grantville. That much luck sort of bumps against
> > plausibility and your suspension of belief. The first book, 1632,
> > is especially guilty of this. Fortunately the shared universe
> > concept somewhat corrects this as other people advance the plots.
>
> Yes to all of this.
>
> I think the problem stems from the fact that it wasn't meant to
> be a series to begin with, and so he went a bit overboard in leaving
> them in a happy position. While the later books aren't grim affairs,
> they are no longer so happy-go-lucky.
He specifically mentions in the afterword to <1632> that it was
meant to be a "sunny" book, and that his publisher had convinced
him to tone down some of the gruesomeness of the Thirty Years War
so as to avoid spoiling that. Seems to me the book had to be
rather a labor of love from getgo, so it's not *just* a throwaway
Baen feel-good book; but it has a number of traits that make it
clear that its *market niche* was originally meant to be "throwaway
Baen feel-good book". Quite clearly, this is no longer the main
marketing angle for the series.
I haven't read (the existing) <1634> yet, but my take on the
others is that their other major flaw, besides a severe shortage
of weirdness in past human behaviour [1], is that they don't seem to
conform to the two-steps-forward-one-step-back pattern that even
the best phases of human history seem to fit all too well. A
couple of authors who've done this pretty well are Guy Kay (who
even when he's making history happier keeps it unhappy) and
Cynthia Voigt (I've been looking at her Kingdom books again, and
remembering how hard she works to disguise a steady upward trend
in the Kingdom's level of civilisation, behind huge amounts of
random-noise unhappiness in the particular families she follows).
Flint & Co. are *edging* in this direction - in <1633> you do get
a very clear sense of just how bad Richelieu's victory could be,
and of the possibility that that victory could really happen -
but they're not all the way there yet, to put it mildly.
Joe Bernstein
[1] No, really. If you want to argue that 17th-century people
*weren't* that weird - substitute for the Thirty Years War and
witch-burning the Bosnian and Irish conflicts and recovered
memories of abuse? - then fine: there's still a severe shortage
of human weirdness in the books. It's a matter of historical
fact that early-middle-17th-century Europe was *crawling* with
bloodthirsty fanatics and with bloodthirsty savages. Given modern
analogues, there's every reason to assume these people had *lots*
of saner supporters. Where are those supporters, in the <1632>
universe?
Bill Snyder
<j...@sfbooks.com> wrote:
>In article <1gfonoe.pygk861yhb669N%pl...@newsreaders.com>,
>J.B. Moreno <pl...@newsreaders.com> wrote:
>
>> Petri Kokko <petri...@kotiportti.fi> wrote:
>
>> > My complaint about the series is rather that Flint seems to be an
>> > incorrigible optimist. Everything works out *too* well for the
>> > people of Grantville. That much luck sort of bumps against
>> > plausibility and your suspension of belief. The first book, 1632,
>> > is especially guilty of this. Fortunately the shared universe
>> > concept somewhat corrects this as other people advance the plots.
>>
>> Yes to all of this.
>>
>> I think the problem stems from the fact that it wasn't meant to
>> be a series to begin with, and so he went a bit overboard in leaving
>> them in a happy position. While the later books aren't grim affairs,
>> they are no longer so happy-go-lucky.
>
>
>[1] No, really. If you want to argue that 17th-century people
>*weren't* that weird - substitute for the Thirty Years War and
>witch-burning the Bosnian and Irish conflicts and recovered
>memories of abuse? - then fine: there's still a severe shortage
>of human weirdness in the books. It's a matter of historical
>fact that early-middle-17th-century Europe was *crawling* with
>bloodthirsty fanatics and with bloodthirsty savages. Given modern
>analogues, there's every reason to assume these people had *lots*
>of saner supporters. Where are those supporters, in the <1632>
>universe?
I suspect this is a matter of ideological bias. As a Marxist, Flint
is presumably emotionally committed to the notion that The System is
the root of all evil, and human nature is not only perfectible but
easily modified: all you need to do is re-educate the peasants a
little to produce the New Sov^H^H^H Grantville Man. The idea that
kings and Mother Church were so powerful and got away with so much
because people actually _believed deeply_ in them, and that you can't
overthrow such beliefs in a few days by handing out sandwiches and
bandaids -- the probability that the actual reaction of nearly all
natives would be "Heretics! Monsters! Spawn of Satan! Burn them
all!" . . . just doesn't compute.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
John
"J.B. Moreno" <pl...@newsreaders.com> wrote in message
news:1gfjwak.2nurzzh1k1oN%pl...@newsreaders.com...
That's a not a quirk, that's a symptom of being human :)
Martin Wisse
<petri...@kotiportti.fi> wrote:
>Turtledove, Harry: The Guns of The South. Afrikaaner outcasts
>steal a time machine and introduce AK-47s to the American Civil
>War. This is a true master piece written by a Turtledove who
>still had ideas left.
Now given that the American Civil War holds a large fascination for US
writers and given that one should not take the fiction for the writer,
but also given that Turtledove would go on to recycle this idea quite a
lot, is it just me or is this slightly creepy?
Martin Wisse
--
Huge, monstrous, flaming demons of the uttermost hells are NOT subtle.
-Seawasp, rasfw
Michael S. Schiffer
news:40e5593e....@news.individual.net:
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:30:34 +0300, "Petri Kokko"
><petri...@kotiportti.fi> wrote:
>>Turtledove, Harry: The Guns of The South. Afrikaaner outcasts
>>steal a time machine and introduce AK-47s to the American Civil
>>War. This is a true master piece written by a Turtledove who
>>still had ideas left.
> Now given that the American Civil War holds a large fascination
> for US writers and given that one should not take the fiction
> for the writer, but also given that Turtledove would go on to
> recycle this idea quite a lot, is it just me or is this slightly
> creepy?
Given the way Turtledove framed the outcome so that the CSA
erchqvngrf gur Nsevxnnaref naq nobyvfurf fynirel, I don't think it's
creepy. I don't think it's an especially plausible outcome, but it's
not as if he's nostalgic for the less palatable aspects of the Old
South.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Petri Kokko
>> for the writer, but also given that Turtledove would go on to
>> recycle this idea quite a lot, is it just me or is this slightly
>> creepy?
>
> not as if he's nostalgic for the less palatable aspects of the Old
> South.
I'd also add that in SF the probability is quite high that the
fictional world is deliberately set towards a dystopia so that the
auther gets his "good convenient enemy" for the story. It sort of
goes with the SF traditions. Heck, if it's an utopia where's the
story? IMHO you *need* a conflict to create any fiction that's
interesting.
Like Martin Wisse was careful to state at the start, we shouldn't
equate the author with his characters much less assume he's
describing his dream world. Never could understand myself the
flame wars fought over Stirling and his Draka books. Just because
there's no happy ending people start screaming and cursing... :-)
Of course, _some_ authors do put their opinions in the mouths of
their characters. That usually makes a bad and implausible story.
Just pick anything written by John Norman...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
petri...@no.spam.thankyou
mike stone
>Never could understand myself the
>flame wars fought over Stirling and his Draka books. Just because
>there's no happy ending people start screaming and cursing... :-)
Which is particularly silly given that tacking on a happy ending would have
absolutely _ruined_ that series.
If ever something cried out to be written as a tragedy, it was this
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
No war is over till the _losers_ say it is
William December Starr
"Petri Kokko" <petri...@kotiportti.fi> said:
> I'd also add that in SF the probability is quite high that the
> fictional world is deliberately set towards a dystopia so that
> the auther gets his "good convenient enemy" for the story. It
> sort of goes with the SF traditions. Heck, if it's an utopia
> where's the story? IMHO you *need* a conflict to create any
> fiction that's interesting.
Unless, of course, a tourist from another place or time has
conveniently shown up to have the utopia shown to in great
detail. :-)
Richard VanHouten
Depends where you are. In the Netherlands, "J. van Random" would get
filed under "R"; in the US, under "V". I'm not sure how the Welsh deal
with their patronymic surnames.
Jim Bailey
When I asked Dafydd about this, he told me it's properly under 'H', but that if
bookstore employees want to file him under both, he won't complain. :-)
Best,
Jim Bailey
--
Elysian Fiction (Fantasy short story e-zine)
http://www.elysianfiction.com/