The Kindly Ones by Melissa Scott

[James Nicoll]

Given how the Baen brand has evolved over the years,"Baen Books" does not
make one think "Lamba and Tiptree-nominated author" but in the 1980s Jim
Baen reportedly made a point of looking for good new female authors and
his enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF [1] had not yet blinded him to works
of quality featuring protagonists outside the usual hetrosexual limits.
Post-Del Montefication [2], it may be hard to believe this ever came from
Baen but it did.

http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/b/b2/BKTG15695.jpg

And the cover wasn't even that bad.

Sadly, the font size is just at the limit I can read and the cost was paid
in migraines so this took longer to read than I planned for.

Melissa Scott is a Campbell Award winner whose books I probably have not
read enough of. I apparently didn't finish this one on the first go because
I found money tucked in amongst the pages, although I must have liked what
I did read because I didn't then sell it. I am also breaking one of my rules
because Jo Walton reviewed this in front of a lot more eyeballs then this will
attract but when she did there wasn't an ebook available.

Fourteen centuries before the book opens an interstellar voyage went horribly
wrong, marooning the survivors on Orestes and Electra, two inhospitable but
technically habitable moons of the gas giant Agamemnon. The colonists
prevailed but one of the consequences of the mishap is a harsh and demanding
social order, as well as a rich tradition of brutal internecine warfare.

Rather like a certain other series first published by Baen around this time,
the moons have come in contact with a galactic community, the Urban Worlds,
in comparison to whom the moons seem backward and cruel (not that that stops
the Urban Worlders from taking advantage of the chance to sell the local
advanced weapons). Trade with the Urban Worlds are forcing disruptive
economic changes on the moons.

The locals are not quite as doctrinaire as they used to be; transgressions
used to punished with death but now some are punished by declaring the
reprobates legally dead, consigning them to an existence not unlike the
one lived by the protagonist of Silverberg's "To See the Invisible Man",
present but willfully ignored, beyond the ken of polite society and
consigned to a ghetto whose main protection is that to destroy it would
require acknowledging its inhabitants. Trey Maturin, born in the Urban
Worlds, works as "medium", an intermediary between the living and dead.

Although for the first third of the book it looks as though a Romeo and
Julietesque romance has doomed the rival Kinships Brandr and Halex to a
grim future of peace and prosperity, a terrible mishap provides the
opportunity for mutual recriminations that very quickly spiral into open
warfare between Brandr and Halex. Both sides see the need to import
expensive and extremely destructive weapons; unfortunately for Halex,
Brandr's arrive first.

Although Brandr seems to have an unassailable advantage, the handful of
surviving Halex still have cards to play; legal shenanigans and bold
contravention of custom turn out to be games both sides can play.

[What is it about SF and court cases, anyway?]

Trey's gender is kept carefully ambiguous, which must have made recording the
audiobook that was announced a few years back interesting. What bits they
happen to be in possession of isn't seen as a character defining element by
the people of this time and Scott refuses to give in modern expectations.

Fans of military SF might find this a bit frustrating because most of the
carnage happens off-stage and not just because a lot of it is of the sort
that doesn't leave eye-witnesses. Violence shapes the choices available but
murder and egregious crimes against humanity are not the details the author
wants to illuminate.

This is a much better book than it needs to be. The plot itself is pretty
basic, a familiar story of ambitious aristocrats leading their clans into
a bloody conflict whose main accomplishment is to further undermine a society
already crumbling (Given the nature of this society, that would not be such
a bad thing if the process didn't involve so much violent death). The plot
almost seems an excuse to present the world building, the odd to our eyes
cultures of the two moons and the hints we get about the galaxy beyond.

The Kindly Ones can be purchased here

http://www.amazon.ca/The-Kindly-Ones-Melissa-Scott-ebook/dp/B009RCO0YE

1: I can and will supply quotations if provoked.

2: From an old ad:

RAVIS SHELTON LIKES BAEN BOOKS BECAUSE THEY TASTE GOOD

Recently we received this letter from Travis Shelton of Dayton,
Texas:

I have come to associate Baen Books with Del Monte. Now what is that
supposed to mean? Well, if you're in a strange store with a lot of
different labels, you pick Del Monte because the product will be
consistent and will not disappoint.

(These days a small number of authors appear to produce a disproportionate
fraction of Baen's books, reducing the variety even more)
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)

[William December Starr]

In article <lpm8b3$ji0$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:

> Given how the Baen brand has evolved over the years,"Baen Books"
> does not make one think "Lamba and Tiptree-nominated author" but
> in the 1980s Jim Baen reportedly made a point of looking for good
> new female authors and his enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF [1] had
> not yet blinded him to works of quality featuring protagonists
> outside the usual hetrosexual limits.
>

> 1: I can and will supply quotations if provoked.

Yes, please.

[...]

> http://www.isfdb.org/wiki/images/b/b2/BKTG15695.jpg
>
> And the cover wasn't even that bad.

"A voice you should search out and read at every opportunity."

[...]

> Fourteen centuries before the book opens an interstellar voyage
> went horribly wrong, marooning the survivors on Orestes and
> Electra, two inhospitable but technically habitable moons of the
> gas giant Agamemnon.

Every time I see something like this I feel _so_ much better about
the naming conventions Niven used in Known Space.

-- wds

[James Nicoll]

In article <lpma1c$ak5$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <lpm8b3$ji0$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>
>> Given how the Baen brand has evolved over the years,"Baen Books"
>> does not make one think "Lamba and Tiptree-nominated author" but
>> in the 1980s Jim Baen reportedly made a point of looking for good
>> new female authors and his enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF [1] had
>> not yet blinded him to works of quality featuring protagonists
>> outside the usual hetrosexual limits.
>>
>> 1: I can and will supply quotations if provoked.
>
>Yes, please.
>

Enjoy!

http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709___1.htm

[Robert Carnegie]

Unfamiliar with details, I wondered if it was foreshadowing.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atreus> actually plays more
like a game of chess, with Aggers, Orse and Lexi on the same
side, pretty much. Oh, and there's cannibalism. Hindshadowing?
You didn't mention what the struggling colonists do about
funerals, only that they tend to happen unexpectedly.

"Atreus" also suggests _Dune_, possibly.

"The Kindly Ones" refers to those people I won't hear
a bad word said about (I hope to the gods),
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes>
who, as you will read, took against Orestes...
I'm not clear whether the two Kinships are the
populations of the two moons.

The described action also slightly calls to mind
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_of_the_Daleks>
except that hardly anybody in that is at all kindly,
never mind romantic.

[A.G.McDowell]

On 10/07/2014 16:08, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article<lpma1c$ak5$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> William December Starr<wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article<lpm8b3$ji0$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>>
>>> Given how the Baen brand has evolved over the years,"Baen Books"
>>> does not make one think "Lamba and Tiptree-nominated author" but
>>> in the 1980s Jim Baen reportedly made a point of looking for good
>>> new female authors and his enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF [1] had
>>> not yet blinded him to works of quality featuring protagonists
>>> outside the usual hetrosexual limits.
>>>
>>> 1: I can and will supply quotations if provoked.
>>
>> Yes, please.
>>
> Enjoy!
>
> http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709___1.htm

I am left confused as to how to assess the internal workings of Jim
Baen's mind on the basis of the evidence available. You quote from a
book by Tom Kratman which does indeed appear to include an unsympathic
character who is homosexual. I cannot see how you get from this to an
analysis of Tom Kratman, let alone Jim Baen. A review of Kratman's "The
Amazon Legion" at
http://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Legion-Desert-Called-Peace/dp/1451638132
includes the following:

Having served for twenty-seven years, I've contemplated the issue of
homosexuals and women in the military for some time. Personally I rather
like the way the author handles it here. Back in the eighties, amongst
the junior enlisted anyway, it was pretty much an open secret who was
straight and who was gay in the infantry unit I was with. Know what?
Nobody seemed to care as long as we respected each other's space and
privacy. The current wailing and gnashing of teeth over repealing DADT
and women in combat is ridiculous. Both sides of the political spectrum
need to STFU and let the troops work it out, we always have in the past.
(end quote)

"The Amazon Legion" is a story illustrating Kratman's design for the
training and use of female combat soldiers at the sharp end (should you
wish to do so - he believes that it is an inefficient use of resources).
He suggests that their trainers could include male homosexuals, to avoid
conflicts of interest. The homosexual trainers are protrayed as both
competent and training. There appears to be as much evidence for an
accepting attitude to homosexuality as there is against one, and I am
not sure that I would wish to take either evidence very far - I cannot
tell when the desire to write an entertaining book for a particular
audience triumphed over any desire of the author's to propagate a
particular viewpoint on homosexuality (as opposed to a technical
assessment of the training and leadership of troops) and when it did not.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <lpmjcq$lmv$1...@dont-email.me>,

I haven't read Kratman, but neither Weber nor Drake have ever seemed
exercised over the issue. Craig Mindenhall was a fairly major and
sympathetic gay character in _Hell On High_.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[James Nicoll]

In article <c28267...@mid.individual.net>,

Ted Nolan <tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>
>I haven't read Kratman, but neither Weber nor Drake have ever seemed
>exercised over the issue. Craig Mindenhall was a fairly major and
>sympathetic gay character in _Hell On High_.

Drake's Joachim Steuben is somewhat problematic but not because of
his orientation.

[A.G.McDowell]

On 10/07/2014 18:52, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article<lpmjcq$lmv$1...@dont-email.me>,
> A.G.McDowell<andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/07/2014 16:08, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article<lpma1c$ak5$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>>> William December Starr<wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> In article<lpm8b3$ji0$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>>>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>>>>
>>>>> Given how the Baen brand has evolved over the years,"Baen Books"
>>>>> does not make one think "Lamba and Tiptree-nominated author" but
>>>>> in the 1980s Jim Baen reportedly made a point of looking for good
>>>>> new female authors and his enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF [1] had
>>>>> not yet blinded him to works of quality featuring protagonists
>>>>> outside the usual hetrosexual limits.
>>>>>

(much trimmed

>>
>> "The Amazon Legion" is a story illustrating Kratman's design for the
>> training and use of female combat soldiers at the sharp end (should you
>> wish to do so - he believes that it is an inefficient use of resources).
>> He suggests that their trainers could include male homosexuals, to avoid
>> conflicts of interest. The homosexual trainers are protrayed as both
>> competent and training. There appears to be as much evidence for an
>> accepting attitude to homosexuality as there is against one, and I am
>> not sure that I would wish to take either evidence very far - I cannot
>> tell when the desire to write an entertaining book for a particular
>> audience triumphed over any desire of the author's to propagate a
>> particular viewpoint on homosexuality (as opposed to a technical
>> assessment of the training and leadership of troops) and when it did not.
>
> I haven't read Kratman, but neither Weber nor Drake have ever seemed
> exercised over the issue. Craig Mindenhall was a fairly major and
> sympathetic gay character in _Hell On High_.

I haven't read enough Weber to form an opinion, but I agree with you on
Drake - in fact Drake was the first name that came to mind, and I could
name at least three instances of homosexual characters in his works,
none of whom are consistent with the idea of gay-bashing. I didn't
choose Drake because:

1) He has been publishing on Baen for a long time now.
2) One of my favourite Drake characters (of any orientation) is Joachim
Von Steuben - but I can see that such a character might not count as a
positive portrayal.

[A.G.McDowell]

On 10/07/2014 19:17, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article<c28267...@mid.individual.net>,
> Ted Nolan<tednolan> <tednolan> wrote:
>>
>> I haven't read Kratman, but neither Weber nor Drake have ever seemed
>> exercised over the issue. Craig Mindenhall was a fairly major and
>> sympathetic gay character in _Hell On High_.
>
> Drake's Joachim Steuben is somewhat problematic but not because of
> his orientation.

Barnes and Dasi turn up now and again in Drake's Leary/Mundy series.
They're a long term male couple, steady senior NCOs who are also
valuable at moving heavy objects or finishing fights. I believe Drake
stated that he thought it was unrealistic to tell a story set in a Navy
without protraying some homosexuality.

Somewhere in the Drake and Flint Belisarious series - or just possibly
in another Drake historical reenactment - there is a loose classical
greek style older man younger man pairing.

[Don Kuenz]

William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:

I probably agree, despite my ignorance of Niven's nomenclature. _Kindly_
ought to have an asteroid belt named Iphigenia that came from a planet
that got obliterated after Agamemnon pulled it in.

It just goes to show. There is no limit to the evil of our wicked
powers-that-be.

[James Silverton]

Lee and Miller's Liaden adventures take quite a relaxed attitude to
sexual practices and one Clarence O'Berin is quite a sympathetic
character. Weber's Honor Harrington books seem to imply absolute gender
equality in the military.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 7/10/2014 10:08 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <lpma1c$ak5$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <lpm8b3$ji0$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>>
>>> Given how the Baen brand has evolved over the years,"Baen Books"
>>> does not make one think "Lamba and Tiptree-nominated author" but
>>> in the 1980s Jim Baen reportedly made a point of looking for good
>>> new female authors and his enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF [1] had
>>> not yet blinded him to works of quality featuring protagonists
>>> outside the usual hetrosexual limits.
>>>
>>> 1: I can and will supply quotations if provoked.
>>
>> Yes, please.
>>
> Enjoy!
>
> http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709___1.htm

You mentioned quaotations. All I see is a supposed
quote that I do not think is such.

Lynn

[Larry Headlund]

It doesn't say anything about Baen nor Kratman directly but I am moved by the included reviewers comment to add some of my one:
<quote>

Having served for twenty-seven years, I've contemplated the issue of homosexuals and women in the military for some time. Personally I rather like the way the author handles it here. Back in the eighties, amongst the junior enlisted anyway, it was pretty much an open secret who was straight and who was gay in the infantry unit I was with. Know what? Nobody seemed to care as long as we respected each other's space and privacy. The current wailing and gnashing of teeth over repealing DADT and women in combat is ridiculous. Both sides of the political spectrum need to STFU and let the troops work it out, we always have in the past.

</quote>

If you are going to ask the politicians (i.e. the government) to shut up and not interfere with you, it would be well not to be a part of organizations created by, responsible to, representing and completely funded by said governments.

"Let the troops work it out, we always have in the past". Since when do "the troops"* decide policy questions? Outside of the POUM militia military organizations tend to be pretty hierarchical. There is a reason they call them orders, not topics for debate. Did "the troops" decide when to exclude African-Americans from the Army, when to admit them only in segregated units, when to desegregate?

* How many troopers in each troop?

[J. Clarke]

In article <1aaa7876-f7a3-4ca3...@googlegroups.com>,
l...@world.std.com says...

You've never served, have you?

The military is not all about some brass-hat marching around barking
orders at everybody, and it works best if it is not micromanaged by
civilians. The correct order to give to get a flagpole raised is
"Sergeant, let's get that flagpole raised", which comes as a surprise to
most officer trainees.

Allowing women or gays to serve--that's a policy decision. Figuring out
how to deal with it, that should be left to the troops (an individual
soldier is a "troop", contrary to what you might have been led to
believe by some online source or other) and their noncoms and officers
unless a problem arises that requires higher level intervention. Some
detailed directive by some civiian is just going to create more problems
than it solves.

Funny thing is, Gilbert and Sullivan understood this quite well--many of
their plays lampoon the politicians' idea of military life and do it
very effectively. Some of Kipling's poetr8y does the same. And the
politicians of today are just as bad as the ones of the 1800s.

[Larry Headlund]

So, the troops themselves decide about the repeal of DADT and women in combat? Because these were precisely the policy questions, things you also describe as policy questions, that the reviewer said should be "worked out by the troops".

[J. Clarke]

In article <05b831a9-857a-4410...@googlegroups.com>,

No, they decide how to deal with it. As I stated clearly for anyone who
did not fail readinc comprehension.

> Because these were precisely the policy questions, things you also
> describe as policy questions, that the reviewer said should be "worked
> out by the troops".

And the details should be. And whether you and the Congress like it or
not, will be, just as they were worked out by the troops under "DADT"
and under "throw the gays in Leavenworth". Or do you think all the gays
in the US military went to prison beforee "DADT"?

[David DeLaney]

On 2014-07-10, James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote:
> Lee and Miller's Liaden adventures take quite a relaxed attitude to
> sexual practices and one Clarence O'Berin is quite a sympathetic
> character.

As long as you're polite about it and don't cause anyone to owe melant'i,
really. "The French don't care what they DO, actually, as long as they
pronounce it correctly." They firmly separate contract-marriage-to-produce-
heirs from all the rest of it.

> Weber's Honor Harrington books seem to imply absolute gender
> equality in the military.

And note that (spoilers, d00d!) Honor herself is currently married to both a
man _and_ a woman.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[James Silverton]

On 7/11/2014 12:39 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2014-07-10, James Silverton <not.jim....@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Lee and Miller's Liaden adventures take quite a relaxed attitude to
>> sexual practices and one Clarence O'Berin is quite a sympathetic
>> character.
>
> As long as you're polite about it and don't cause anyone to owe melant'i,
> really. "The French don't care what they DO, actually, as long as they
> pronounce it correctly." They firmly separate contract-marriage-to-produce-
> heirs from all the rest of it.
>
>> Weber's Honor Harrington books seem to imply absolute gender
>> equality in the military.
>
> And note that (spoilers, d00d!) Honor herself is currently married to both a
> man _and_ a woman.
>

Not having read all of the Honor books in sequence (or even all of
them), that came as a surprise. However, it's a more than usually
complicated situation because of earlier friendships and health problems.

[William December Starr]

In article <MPG.2e2918092...@news.newsguy.com>,
"J. Clarke" <jclark...@cox.net> said:

> l...@world.std.com says...

>
>> Because these were precisely the policy questions, things you
>> also describe as policy questions, that the reviewer said should
>> be "worked out by the troops".
>
> And the details should be. And whether you and the Congress like
> it or not, will be, just as they were worked out by the troops
> under "DADT" and under "throw the gays in Leavenworth". Or do you
> think all the gays in the US military went to prison beforee "DADT"?

Do you think they had legal protection against being sent to prison
(or, less dramatically, having their careers destroyed) if that was
how some subset of the troops decided to "work it out"?

One of the jobs of civilians who control the military (via the
mechanism of creating the rules under which it must operate) is to
define the regions of "working it out" which are and are not
permissible. And if the soldiers don't like it, shut up and
soldier, soldier.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <lpmn28$hv9$1...@dont-email.me>,

Don Kuenz <gar...@crcomp.net> said:

> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Fourteen centuries before the book opens an interstellar voyage
>>> went horribly wrong, marooning the survivors on Orestes and
>>> Electra, two inhospitable but technically habitable moons of the
>>> gas giant Agamemnon.
>>
>> Every time I see something like this I feel _so_ much better about
>> the naming conventions Niven used in Known Space.
>
> I probably agree, despite my ignorance of Niven's nomenclature.

Niven named planets, geological features, and the like as if they
were named by the human beings who arrived there, not obsessive
classicists. Wunderland, Down, Home, We Made It (where the natives
call themselves Crashlanders), Jinx, Plateau, Mt. Lookitthat. I
think there was even a Jupiter-like gas giant that the people living
on one of its moons called Godzilla.

And I feel good about it because fuck people who say "You can't call
that trans-Plutonian object 'Xena' because it's Against The Rules."

-- wds

[A.G.McDowell]

I always assumed it was a tribute to some of the more unusual American
placenames. Alas, in the UK, even if we do manage to shoehorn in a new
village or town into our already crowded landscape, some boring
committee digs up a real or fabricated historical references which
excuses an equally boring name. (or if not that, it gets named after a
politician).

[James Nicoll]

In article <lprhum$lec$1...@dont-email.me>,

In Canada, we just reuse placenames with no regard for how confusing that
can be. Not just naming cities after Old World cities or cities in New
Jersey; I am thinking about back when we had four communities called
Niagara.

I am told there was a grea Renaming when Waterloo and Kitchener decided
having two sets of roads using the same small set of names was a mistake.
Not things like King St running the length of KW but stuff like there
being two unrelated Church Streets.

[Michael R N Dolbear]

"James Nicoll" wrote

> In Canada, we just reuse placenames with no regard for how confusing that
can be. Not just naming cities after Old World cities or cities in New
Jersey; I am thinking about back when we had four communities called
Niagara.

> I am told there was a grea Renaming when Waterloo and Kitchener decided
having two sets of roads using the same small set of names was a mistake.
Not things like King St running the length of KW but stuff like there
being two unrelated Church Streets.

Back before WW2 the LCC decided there were too many Queen Streets in London.

This renaming meant renaming railway stations too which is why Battersea now
has a Queenstown Road station and Westminster the Queensway London
Underground (tube) station.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queenstown_Road_railway_station
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensway_tube_station



--
Mike D

[William December Starr]

In article <lpma98$pev$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:

> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>>
>>> Given how the Baen brand has evolved over the years,"Baen Books"
>>> does not make one think "Lamba and Tiptree-nominated author" but
>>> in the 1980s Jim Baen reportedly made a point of looking for good
>>> new female authors and his enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF [1] had
>>> not yet blinded him to works of quality featuring protagonists
>>> outside the usual hetrosexual limits.
>>>
>>> 1: I can and will supply quotations if provoked.
>>
>> Yes, please.
>>
> Enjoy!
>
> http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709___1.htm

Oddly perhaps, I'd never read that before.

Good lord.

The only reason I can see for that crap being printed by a real
publisher is as a novel-within-the-novel in something that's using
the same format as Spinrad's _The Iron Dream_.

-- wds

[Christopher J. Henrich]

In article <lpsac1$90a$1...@panix2.panix.com>, William December Starr

There is a "Bad Sex in Fiction" award. The first few paragraphs might
have been intended as an (ahem) entry in that...

--
Chris Henrich <http://www.mathinteract.com>
We've tamed the lightning and taught sand to give error messages. - Nancy
Lebovitz

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On 2014-07-12 14:26:08 -0400, James Nicoll said:

> I am told there was a grea Renaming when Waterloo and Kitchener decided
> having two sets of roads using the same small set of names was a mistake.
> Not things like King St running the length of KW but stuff like there
> being two unrelated Church Streets.

Why would that be a mistake? Gaithersburg, MD has two Watkins Mill
Roads -- I think they were originally intended to join up, but the
middle part was never built.

And then there's Lexington, KY, where there used to be THREE Mount
Tabor Roads, two of which crossed each other. One got renamed Alumni
Drive; not sure what they did with the others.




--
I'm serializing a new Ethshar novel!
The twenty-second chapter is online at:
http://www.ethshar.com/ishtascompanion22.html

[Greg Goss]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:

>On 2014-07-12 14:26:08 -0400, James Nicoll said:
>
>> I am told there was a grea Renaming when Waterloo and Kitchener decided
>> having two sets of roads using the same small set of names was a mistake.
>> Not things like King St running the length of KW but stuff like there
>> being two unrelated Church Streets.
>
>Why would that be a mistake? Gaithersburg, MD has two Watkins Mill
>Roads -- I think they were originally intended to join up, but the
>middle part was never built.

That isn't "unrelated". There are a lot of such streets that
conceptually link up.

In Calgary, (straight) Barlow Trail northbound merges onto the main
freeway Deerfoot Trail as it meanders along a river valley (and later
a former glacial river valley). Five miles or so further north it
reappears as the freeway sweeps off northwest.

Obviously Barlow Trail once connected before they built Deerfoot on
top of it. Or perhaps intended to eventually connect.


--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[James Silverton]

On 7/13/2014 1:26 AM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On 2014-07-12 14:26:08 -0400, James Nicoll said:
>
>> I am told there was a grea Renaming when Waterloo and Kitchener decided
>> having two sets of roads using the same small set of names was a mistake.
>> Not things like King St running the length of KW but stuff like there
>> being two unrelated Church Streets.
>
> Why would that be a mistake? Gaithersburg, MD has two Watkins Mill
> Roads -- I think they were originally intended to join up, but the
> middle part was never built.
>
> And then there's Lexington, KY, where there used to be THREE Mount Tabor
> Roads, two of which crossed each other. One got renamed Alumni Drive;
> not sure what they did with the others.
>

From the same part of the world as Gaithersburg, there seem to be
several unconnected pieces of Bell's Mill Rd. The original old road was
crossed by later main roads and streets in developments.

[David DeLaney]

On 2014-07-13, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:
> On 2014-07-12 14:26:08 -0400, James Nicoll said:
>> I am told there was a grea Renaming when Waterloo and Kitchener decided
>> having two sets of roads using the same small set of names was a mistake.
>> Not things like King St running the length of KW but stuff like there
>> being two unrelated Church Streets.
>
> Why would that be a mistake? Gaithersburg, MD has two Watkins Mill
> Roads -- I think they were originally intended to join up, but the
> middle part was never built.
>
> And then there's Lexington, KY, where there used to be THREE Mount
> Tabor Roads, two of which crossed each other. One got renamed Alumni
> Drive; not sure what they did with the others.

And let us not even start with Atlanta, GA's Peachtree Street profusion...

Dave, ain't never been there, they tell me it's nice

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2014-07-13 05:26:47 +0000, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> said:

> On 2014-07-12 14:26:08 -0400, James Nicoll said:
>
>> I am told there was a grea Renaming when Waterloo and Kitchener decided
>> having two sets of roads using the same small set of names was a mistake.
>> Not things like King St running the length of KW but stuff like there
>> being two unrelated Church Streets.
>
> Why would that be a mistake? Gaithersburg, MD has two Watkins Mill
> Roads -- I think they were originally intended to join up, but the
> middle part was never built.

Lotta roads like that out here -- they're platted as the same road, but
there are lots of bits where the road doesn't exist for blocks at a
time, or is interrupted by a river, or...

> And then there's Lexington, KY, where there used to be THREE Mount
> Tabor Roads, two of which crossed each other. One got renamed Alumni
> Drive; not sure what they did with the others.

...actually, a lot of the roads out here vanish for a while and
reappear when they run into Mount Tabor.

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[Tim McDaniel]

In article <lpmn0p$hm4$1...@dont-email.me>,

A.G.McDowell <andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote:
>Somewhere in the Drake and Flint Belisarious series - or just
>possibly in another Drake historical reenactment - there is a loose
>classical greek style older man younger man pairing.

It was in the _The General_ series. Started that way, but the younger
man grew up and they stayed together.

Older: Gerrin Staenbridge; younger: Barton Foley.

--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com

[A.G.McDowell]

That rings a bell - thanks

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 03:37:06 +0000 (UTC), Tim McDaniel
<tm...@panix.com> wrote in
<news:lq27l2$haj$1...@reader1.panix.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

No time for it in the Belisarius pentalogy: the hetero
couples are having way too much fun.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Walter Bushell]

In article <lpt5an$jej$1...@dont-email.me>,

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:

> On 2014-07-12 14:26:08 -0400, James Nicoll said:
>
> > I am told there was a grea Renaming when Waterloo and Kitchener decided
> > having two sets of roads using the same small set of names was a mistake.
> > Not things like King St running the length of KW but stuff like there
> > being two unrelated Church Streets.
>
> Why would that be a mistake? Gaithersburg, MD has two Watkins Mill
> Roads -- I think they were originally intended to join up, but the
> middle part was never built.
>
> And then there's Lexington, KY, where there used to be THREE Mount
> Tabor Roads, two of which crossed each other. One got renamed Alumni
> Drive; not sure what they did with the others.

In Manhattan Waverly Place intersects itself and in Boston by law all
roads are self intersecting.

[Jaimie Vandenbergh]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2014 20:09:14 -0400, Walter Bushell <pr...@panix.com>
wrote:

>in Boston by law all
>roads are self intersecting.

Do you have a pointer for how this happened? I can't find anything using
the keywords above.

I love a good law story.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Don't drag me down to your level, meat." -- Red Robot #C-63

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, 22 July 2014 01:09:14 UTC+1, Walter Bushell wrote:
> In Manhattan Waverly Place intersects itself

Is that a television reference or just a fact?

(I can see a case for "Unplottable".)

> and in Boston by law all roads are self intersecting.

Only in the Mobius district. Once you get out from there -
well, you /don't/ get out from there, but, if you did -

And, Apple Inc. is (or, in the theoretical limit is)
located here. †
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Loop_%28street@29>
Keep going until you see the field of unicorns...

[James Silverton]

On 7/22/2014 6:28 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Tuesday, 22 July 2014 01:09:14 UTC+1, Walter Bushell wrote:
>> In Manhattan Waverly Place intersects itself
>
> Is that a television reference or just a fact?
>
> (I can see a case for "Unplottable".)
>
>> and in Boston by law all roads are self intersecting.
>
> Only in the Mobius district. Once you get out from there -
> well, you /don't/ get out from there, but, if you did -
>
> And, Apple Inc. is (or, in the theoretical limit is)

> located here. �

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Loop_%28street@29>
> Keep going until you see the field of unicorns...
>

"Unplottable" would mean "unable to be plotted on a graph" to me.

[Scott Lurndal]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:

>And, Apple Inc. is (or, in the theoretical limit is)

>located here. =86

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Loop_%28street@29>
>Keep going until you see the field of unicorns...

Not for long:

http://www.businessinsider.com/aerial-view-of-apples-spaceship-campus-2014-7

[Robert Carnegie]

On Tuesday, 22 July 2014 11:28:27 UTC+1, Robert Carnegie wrote:

> And, Apple Inc. is (or, in the theoretical limit is)
>
> located here. †
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Loop_%28street@29>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Loop_%28street%29>

- @%$*# it!

[David E. Siegel]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:08:24 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <lpma1c$ak5$1...@panix2.panix.com>,

>
> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>

> >In article <lpm8b3$ji0$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

>
> >jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>
> >
>
> >> Given how the Baen brand has evolved over the years,"Baen Books"
>
> >> does not make one think "Lamba and Tiptree-nominated author" but
>
> >> in the 1980s Jim Baen reportedly made a point of looking for good
>
> >> new female authors and his enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF [1] had
>
> >> not yet blinded him to works of quality featuring protagonists
>
> >> outside the usual hetrosexual limits.
>
> >>
>
> >> 1: I can and will supply quotations if provoked.
>
> >
>
> >Yes, please.
>
> >
>
> Enjoy!
>
>
>
> http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709___1.htm
>

I see a villain who happens to be lesbian. I don't see any indication that being lesbian is what made her a villain, even in the author's mind. I do see a lot of liberal-bashing, indeed of Democrat-bashing. Distorted versions of more or less typically liberal or democrat-favored programs are portrayed as unworkable schemes to impose tyranny, known even by their proponent (the aforsaid lesbian) to be unworkable nonsense. This is political, even partisan fiction. I disagree with the ideas presented and implied, rather strongly. I have previously (some years ago) compared the author's first novel to _The Turner Diaries_, to the advantage of the latter. But I don't see any gay-bashing at least in the chapter linked to, unless simply having a very nasty villain who is gay is gay-bashing.

Moreover, even if Kratman does engage in gay-bashing, that is one author. It would not demonstrate that Jim Baen has an "enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF". From what he has written and what has been written about him, JB's political views were rather right-of-center (but by no means sterotypical) in the US political context. And it has been reported that fiction that agreed with his political views was more likely to get bought when it was a close call. But a number of books published by Baen show gay characters in positive or routine/neutral lights. Several have been cited in this thread. In addition, There is Lois M. Bujold, whose Vorkosigan series includes Aral ("He's not bisexual, he's monogamous") and the hermaphrodite Bel Thorne among less prominent characters. Mercedes Lackey has surely had a number of gay characters, starting with Vanyel. I don't think your point is established.

-DES

[William December Starr]

In article <cf453cf7-531d-4c8d...@googlegroups.com>,

"David E. Siegel" <sie...@acm.org> said:

>> http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709___1.htm
>>
> I see a villain who happens to be lesbian. I don't see any
> indication that being lesbian is what made her a villain, even in
> the author's mind. I do see a lot of liberal-bashing, indeed of
> Democrat-bashing. Distorted versions of more or less typically
> liberal or democrat-favored programs are portrayed as unworkable
> schemes to impose tyranny, known even by their proponent (the
> aforsaid lesbian) to be unworkable nonsense. This is political,
> even partisan fiction. I disagree with the ideas presented and
> implied, rather strongly. I have previously (some years ago)
> compared the author's first novel to _The Turner Diaries_, to the
> advantage of the latter. But I don't see any gay-bashing at least
> in the chapter linked to, unless simply having a very nasty
> villain who is gay is gay-bashing.

If you're courting an readership that consists per capita of a much
higher than average amount of rabid gay-haters -- which Kratman was
-- and you deliberately throw red meat to said gay-haters -- as
Kratman did -- counts as gay-bashing, then Kratman's guilty as sin.

> Moreover, even if Kratman does engage in gay-bashing, that is one
> author. It would not demonstrate that Jim Baen has an "enhusiasm
> for gay-bashing SF".

Lie down with shit, you get up with shit. _A State of Disobedience_
was published in 2003; Jim Baen lived until 2006 and by all accounts was
was in full command of his faculties right up until the end. Did he
ever issue a mea culpa? If not, then the shit sticks.

-- wds

[David Johnston]

On 7/23/2014 2:29 PM, David E. Siegel wrote:
> On Thursday, July 10, 2014 11:08:24 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <lpma1c$ak5$1...@panix2.panix.com>,
>>
>> William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <lpm8b3$ji0$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
>>
>>> jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> Given how the Baen brand has evolved over the years,"Baen
>>>> Books"
>>
>>>> does not make one think "Lamba and Tiptree-nominated author"
>>>> but
>>
>>>> in the 1980s Jim Baen reportedly made a point of looking for
>>>> good
>>
>>>> new female authors and his enhusiasm for gay-bashing SF [1]
>>>> had
>>
>>>> not yet blinded him to works of quality featuring protagonists
>>
>>>> outside the usual hetrosexual limits.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> 1: I can and will supply quotations if provoked.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Yes, please.
>>
>>>
>>
>> Enjoy!
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709___1.htm
>>
> I see a villain who happens to be lesbian.

Well no. She doesn't "happen to be lesbian". She's lesbian because
she's Hillary Clinton, and the narrative concerning Hillary Clinton on
the further right is that rather than being a "good wife" who stuck by
her man through thick and thin or even someone whos deeply hurt, but not
willing to give up her life in politics, she is instead someone who
doesn't really care whether her husband cheats because she's really a
power-hungry lesbian only using him as a stepping stone to her own
political ascendence. Her being a "liberal" and being a lesbian are
tied up together.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/19/hillary-clinton-lesbian-president-_n_3957349.html

> Moreover, even if Kratman does engage in gay-bashing, that is one
> author. It would not demonstrate that Jim Baen has an "enhusiasm for
> gay-bashing SF".

True.

[David E. Siegel]

I see your point, and I hadn't quite looked at it that way. I do think it would be more accurate to say "the narrative concerning Hillary Clinton FOR SOME on
the further right is...". The US Right is no more monolithic than is any other part of the political spectrum. There are views more widely shared there, and ones less widely shared, but almost nothing is embraced by ALL on the "further right". But that is a detail. Still, in that book, the main bashing is directed at the character's political views and acts, not at her sexual orientation, although it was no doubt intended to be all of a piece, and in any case was quite likely to be taken that way by many of those to whom the book would appeal.

>
> > Moreover, even if Kratman does engage in gay-bashing, that is one
> > author. It would not demonstrate that Jim Baen has an "enhusiasm for
> > gay-bashing SF".
>
> True.

And to say, as the original post I responded to did, that Jim Baen's views had "blinded him to works of quality featuring protagonists outside the usual hetrosexual limit" implies that no such work could or would have been published by Baen Books after some cutoff date when those views changed or hardened or whatever. I still don't think the available evidence supports that conclusion.


-DES

[David E. Siegel]

On Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:01:03 PM UTC-4, William December Starr wrote:
> In article <cf453cf7-531d-4c8d...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> "David E. Siegel" <sie...@acm.org> said:
>
>
>
> >> http://www.baenebooks.com/chapters/0743471709/0743471709___1.htm
>
> >>
>
> > I see a villain who happens to be lesbian. I don't see any
>
> > indication that being lesbian is what made her a villain, even in
>
> > the author's mind. I do see a lot of liberal-bashing, indeed of
>
> > Democrat-bashing. Distorted versions of more or less typically
>
> > liberal or democrat-favored programs are portrayed as unworkable
>
> > schemes to impose tyranny, known even by their proponent (the
>
> > aforsaid lesbian) to be unworkable nonsense. This is political,
>
> > even partisan fiction. I disagree with the ideas presented and
>
> > implied, rather strongly. I have previously (some years ago)
>
> > compared the author's first novel to _The Turner Diaries_, to the
>
> > advantage of the latter. But I don't see any gay-bashing at least
>
> > in the chapter linked to, unless simply having a very nasty
>
> > villain who is gay is gay-bashing.
>
>
>
> If you're courting an readership that consists per capita of a much
>
> higher than average amount of rabid gay-haters -- which Kratman was
>
> -- and you deliberately throw red meat to said gay-haters -- as
>
> Kratman did -- counts as gay-bashing, then Kratman's guilty as sin.
>

That depends on the nature of the "red meat" in my view. If it was all aimed at political views which the same audience might be expected to detest, rather than at the character's sexual orientation _per se_, or at a clear suggestion that the political views arose from the lesbianism, then I wouldn't call it "gay-bashing". Demagoguery, yes. Partisan political pandering, yes. but not "gay-bashing".

>
> > Moreover, even if Kratman does engage in gay-bashing, that is one
> > author. It would not demonstrate that Jim Baen has an "enhusiasm
> > for gay-bashing SF".
>
>
>
> Lie down with shit, you get up with shit. _A State of Disobedience_
> was published in 2003; Jim Baen lived until 2006 and by all accounts was
> was in full command of his faculties right up until the end. Did he
> ever issue a mea culpa? If not, then the shit sticks.
>
>
>
> -- wds

I wasn't arguing that Jim Baen should be excused because he was too old and feeble to know what he was doing, nothing I have heard suggests that. I strongly dislike Kratman's fiction, and I suspect I would strongly dislike Kratman in person if I met him. I have declined to purchase Baen ebook bundles that included multiple books I wanted, waiting and paying more for them separately, because I didn't want any of my money to go to Kratman who also had a book in the bundle, nor did I want to send his sales numbers up. However, I don't generally feel that a publisher should apologize for the opinions contained in a work of fiction that s/he publishes.

Moreover the original comment to which I responded not only said that books published by Baen enganged in gay-bashing, but that Jim Baen could not, in the latter part of his life, recognize the value of any book with non-hetero protagonists, which is a much broader claim, and IMO would take more than one book or one author to substantiate.

-DES

[William December Starr]

In article <4b03d4ad-ea2e-4b45...@googlegroups.com>,

"David E. Siegel" <sie...@acm.org> said:

> I wasn't arguing that Jim Baen should be excused because he was
> too old and feeble to know what he was doing, nothing I have heard
> suggests that.

Neither was I; I was just saying that he had roughly three years in
which to say "Oops, I'm really, _really_ sorry" and as far as I know
he didn't.

> I strongly dislike Kratman's fiction, and I suspect I would
> strongly dislike Kratman in person if I met him. I have declined
> to purchase Baen ebook bundles that included multiple books I
> wanted, waiting and paying more for them separately, because I
> didn't want any of my money to go to Kratman who also had a book
> in the bundle, nor did I want to send his sales numbers
> up. However, I don't generally feel that a publisher should
> apologize for the opinions contained in a work of fiction that
> s/he publishes.

I don't either, generally. I think this went more than a bit beyond
being a general case though.

-- wds

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"David E. Siegel" <sie...@acm.org> wrote in
news:4b03d4ad-ea2e-4b45...@googlegroups.com:

In the minds of a lot of the audience for that sort of thing,
"gay" and "liberal" are, literally, the same thing. One cannot be
gay without being liberal, and one cannot be liberal with being, or
wanting to be, or at leaste overtly approving of being gay, and
probably openly trying to recruit children in to being gay.

Approval of homosexuality is not, to such people, a feature of
being a liberal, it *is* being a liberal. And liberal views do not
lead one to approve of homosexuality, they _are_ approval of
homosexuality.

Yeah, they really do "think" that way.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[David DeLaney]

On 2014-07-24, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "David E. Siegel" <sie...@acm.org> wrote in

>> That depends on the nature of the "red meat" in my view. If it
>> was all aimed at political views which the same audience might
>> be expected to detest, rather than at the character's sexual
>> orientation _per se_, or at a clear suggestion that the
>> political views arose from the lesbianism, then I wouldn't call
>> it "gay-bashing". Demagoguery, yes. Partisan political
>> pandering, yes. but not "gay-bashing".
>
> In the minds of a lot of the audience for that sort of thing,
> "gay" and "liberal" are, literally, the same thing. One cannot be
> gay without being liberal, and one cannot be liberal with being, or
> wanting to be, or at leaste overtly approving of being gay, and
> probably openly trying to recruit children in to being gay.
>
> Approval of homosexuality is not, to such people, a feature of
> being a liberal, it *is* being a liberal. And liberal views do not
> lead one to approve of homosexuality, they _are_ approval of
> homosexuality.
>
> Yeah, they really do "think" that way.

... ... blink.

Thank you. This position actually explains, for me, why there's that "we are
a PERSECUTED and ENDANGERED MINORI-TAY!!1!" strain running through their
pronouncements ... because if this is one of the things flowing under their
thinking [they may not even specifically know it's there], then they think
there's a LOT more of us gay folks out here than there actually are. Even
if one also includs bi, trans, ace, and the less common sexualities...
Conflating it, even unconsciously, with a trait there's a lot more of
clarifies a lot for me.

{The fear that if you're a guy, and you even look at another guy anywhere
within a foot of his junk, YOU'RE GAY OR ARE GONNA TURN is another weird one,
and also disprovable by reality - there'd be a lot less of YOU-all if that one
were true.}

Dave

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:7oidnQANQsv4Z0zO...@earthlink.com:

> On 2014-07-24, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
> <taus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "David E. Siegel" <sie...@acm.org> wrote in
>>> That depends on the nature of the "red meat" in my view. If it
>>> was all aimed at political views which the same audience might
>>> be expected to detest, rather than at the character's sexual
>>> orientation _per se_, or at a clear suggestion that the
>>> political views arose from the lesbianism, then I wouldn't
>>> call it "gay-bashing". Demagoguery, yes. Partisan political
>>> pandering, yes. but not "gay-bashing".
>>
>> In the minds of a lot of the audience for that sort of thing,
>> "gay" and "liberal" are, literally, the same thing. One cannot
>> be gay without being liberal, and one cannot be liberal with
>> being, or wanting to be, or at leaste overtly approving of
>> being gay, and probably openly trying to recruit children in to
>> being gay.
>>
>> Approval of homosexuality is not, to such people, a feature of
>> being a liberal, it *is* being a liberal. And liberal views do
>> not lead one to approve of homosexuality, they _are_ approval
>> of homosexuality.
>>
>> Yeah, they really do "think" that way.
>
> ... ... blink.

Welcome to the internet, where nothing is too crazy to find a home.

>
> Thank you. This position actually explains, for me, why there's
> that "we are a PERSECUTED and ENDANGERED MINORI-TAY!!1!" strain
> running through their pronouncements ... because if this is one
> of the things flowing under their thinking [they may not even
> specifically know it's there],

Most of them don't know what day of the week it is, or what
continent they're on.

> then they think there's a LOT
> more of us gay folks out here than there actually are.

And you're all conspiring against them, trying to make them gay,
too. Being tools of Satan, and all. (As opposed to just . . . being
tools.)

> Even if
> one also includs bi, trans, ace, and the less common
> sexualities...
> Conflating it, even unconsciously, with a trait there's a lot
> more of
> clarifies a lot for me.

Keep in mind we are talking about, as I specified, "the audience
for that sort of thing," which is not a large group either. Just a
very vocal one (as gay rights activists has been at times - loud,
but not numerous).

>
> {The fear that if you're a guy, and you even look at another guy
> anywhere within a foot of his junk, YOU'RE GAY OR ARE GONNA TURN
> is another weird one, and also disprovable by reality - there'd
> be a lot less of YOU-all if that one were true.}
>

Keep in mind, these are people who literally believe that if gay
marriage is legal, they, as devout heterosexuals will be *forced*
to divorce their wives of many years, sacrifice their children to
Satan, and kick their dogs, before marrying other men. Or so they
say, at any rate.

(Realistically, the *only* way that legalizing gay marriage cold be
damaging to heterosexual marriages is if a lot of gay guys are only
waiting for the opportunity to dump their wives, which, given that
we tend to see in others what we see in ourselves, says quite a lot
about the loud anti-gay-marriage types, don't you think?)

[William December Starr]

In article <XnsA37490A72F9...@69.16.179.43>,

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> said:

> Approval of homosexuality is not, to such people, a feature of
> being a liberal, it *is* being a liberal. And liberal views do not
> lead one to approve of homosexuality, they _are_ approval of
> homosexuality.
>
> Yeah, they really do "think" that way.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple
farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay
of the new West. You know... morons."

-- wds

[Lynn McGuire]

Wow, who is doing the bashing now?

Lynn

[William December Starr]

In article <lqv4qd$128$1...@dont-email.me>,

Me. And they deserve it.

-- wds

[Lynn McGuire]

You know that with basic conflicts like this, the USA
is heading toward a civil war. The middle against
the coasts. Maybe 10 years, maybe 20 years. It will
make the War of Northern Aggression look like backyard
disagreement.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

+1

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Kratman wrote a book called the _The Amazon Legion_
and Baene published it in 2011. There are many gay
characters, in fact, a legion. They acquit themselves
honorably in the book. I see no gay bashing here.
http://www.baenebooks.com/p-1322-the-amazon-legion.aspx

Lynn

[Robert Carnegie]

<http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mel_Brooks>

...although that was in the name of a different cause.
(It's from _Blazing Saddles_.)

[David DeLaney]

On 2014-07-26, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
> On 7/25/2014 9:49 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>> Me. And they deserve it.
>

> You know that with basic conflicts like this, the USA
> is heading toward a civil war. The middle against
> the coasts. Maybe 10 years, maybe 20 years. It will
> make the War of Northern Aggression look like backyard
> disagreement.

Sigh. There's more people in the cities and towns than there are in the rural
and farmland areas, and the former are better-organized and have access to
better toys to boot. If such a war did manage to break out - rather than a
peace breaking out because of all the older generation that got so
indoctrinated dying off and the younger folks collectively discovering that
there was more to life than the stringently xenophobic way they'd been brought
up (there's several different varieties of that available in the USA, we are
nothing if not a collection of little experiments in social and legal
variation) - the conservative rural "we are the heartland values, y'all need
to shut up and listen to yer feelin's, not to those actual studies made about
things, facts are BAD for you" folks aren't gonna win. rational!Harry isn't
on the wizarding world's side in the analogous schism...

Fortunately, urbanity IS stealing rurality's kids at a rather appalling rate.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 13:12:13 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<l...@winsim.com> wrote in <news:lr0r3t$ok2$2...@dont-email.me>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> It will make the War of Northern Aggression look like
> backyard disagreement.

William’s comment was not just uncalled for but clearly
inaccurate; however, in my experience anyone who uses the
name ‘War of Northern Agression’ is *at best* ignorant of
history, and the possible alternativs are much worse.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 13:24:53 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<l...@winsim.com> wrote in <news:lr0rrp$ut1$1...@dont-email.me>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> Kratman wrote a book called the _The Amazon Legion_ and
> Baene

Baen

> published it in 2011.

Well after Jim Baen died.

> There are many gay characters, in fact, a legion. They
> acquit themselves honorably in the book. I see no gay
> bashing here.

The women are segregated into a unit of their own, and
Kratman isn’t so divorced from reality as not to realize
that some of them will be lesbians. The gay men are also
segregated into a unit of their own. Both women and gay men
are allowed into the military only because the planet is
desperate.

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, 27 July 2014 09:43:15 UTC+1, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 13:12:13 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <l...@winsim.com> wrote in <news:lr0r3t$ok2$2...@dont-email.me>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
> > It will make the War of Northern Aggression look like
> > backyard disagreement.
>
> William's comment was not just uncalled for but clearly
> inaccurate; however, in my experience anyone who uses the
> name 'War of Northern Agression' is *at best* ignorant of
> history,

And spelling.

> and the possible alternativs are much worse.

I wouldn't go that far. Wors.

"Northern Aggression" is /not/ The N Word which none must
say (except in rap records).

It is seen in the north as a term of dishonest propaganda,
a colossal lie. As such, I don't want it obliterated,
I want it kept around to remind us that that level of
controversy exists - so that whenever someone tells you
that the political party they're opposed to is doing or
planning something atrocious, you can reflect, "Is it
possible that this story departs widely from truth?"

Maybe I'm over-optimistic about people and about politics,
but I expect most science fiction readers to interpret it
as meaning, "Oh look, the side with the technological
superiority and the more sophisticated attitude to human
diversity won the war. I wonder what would happen in
another, similar conflict, by force or otherwise."

[A.G.McDowell]

The women are there as a recruiting tool, to shame the men into joining
up: Kratman believes that the level of selection and training required
to produce a comparatively effective front line female soldier is an
inefficient use of resources.

The men are obviously modelled on classical references to elite forces
of paired male homosexuals. There are some hints that they may have been
formed with the goal of actings as trainers to the women in mind - but
regardless of this they are portrayed as competent and compassionate. At
least one of them is remarkably well educated for a soldier, which is
consistent with the level of special forces selection which further
selects for intelligence after selecting for the required physical and
character attributes.

I really must put Kratman's first book on my to-review list. I seem to
be quite well positioned for it relative to the comments starting point,
having just read Melissa Scott's Point of Hopes and Point of Dreams, and
currently reading Ancillary Justice. (I regard Scott as light feel-good
fantasy which I should regard as beneath me (Astrology, forsooth!) but
which I return to again and again - the reread of Point of Hopes and
Point of Dreams was a reward to myself for going to the Dentist).

(I expect this Kratman to be quite alien to me. I was brought up as an
Ulster Protestant in Northern Ireland. I do not regard insurrection as a
romantic duel of sharp-shooters, and I am somewhat wary of mixing
religion and politics, or indeed religion and any form of authority
whatsover).

[A.G.McDowell]

I see from this link it is Apple's new 'Spaceship' headquarters. Is
there something in the air in the USA that leads to glamourous names?
Surely http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doughnut had at least equal
mystique - but it gets called The Doughnut - I guess we go in for
understatement rather than glamour over here (allegedly it has all the
glamourous atmosphere of a second rate airport terminal inside).

[Lynn McGuire]

Thanks, I did not realize that was a quote from
"Blazing Saddles". You know, the great thing about
that movie is that it insulted everyone equally.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

On 7/27/2014 4:05 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 13:24:53 -0500, Lynn McGuire
> <l...@winsim.com> wrote in <news:lr0rrp$ut1$1...@dont-email.me>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> [...]
>
>> Kratman wrote a book called the _The Amazon Legion_ and
>> Baene
>
> Baen

Sigh. Spelling has never been my strong point and
it is getting worse by the day along with my eyesight.
I looked at www.baenebooks.com and forgot that Baen
sells ebooks.

You would think that as many Baen books that I have
purchased and read over the years, that the spelling
of it would be second nature.

Thanks,
Lynn

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 19:25:23 +0100, "A.G.McDowell"
<andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote in
<news:lr3g6d$i9g$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 27/07/2014 10:05, Brian M. Scott wrote:

>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 13:24:53 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote in<news:lr0rrp$ut1$1...@dont-email.me>
>> in rec.arts.sf.written:

>> [...]

>>> Kratman wrote a book called the _The Amazon Legion_ and
>>> Baene

>> Baen

>>> published it in 2011.

>> Well after Jim Baen died.

>>> There are many gay characters, in fact, a legion. They
>>> acquit themselves honorably in the book. I see no gay
>>> bashing here.

>> The women are segregated into a unit of their own, and
>> Kratman isn’t so divorced from reality as not to realize
>> that some of them will be lesbians. The gay men are also
>> segregated into a unit of their own. Both women and gay men
>> are allowed into the military only because the planet is
>> desperate.

> The women are there as a recruiting tool, to shame the men
> into joining up: Kratman believes that the level of
> selection and training required to produce a
> comparatively effective front line female soldier is an
> inefficient use of resources.

I know he does. I suspect that his opinion is based on a
biased selection of the evidence, but that’s beside the
point. The women wouldn’t be there if the manpower
situation weren’t desperate.

> The men are obviously modelled on classical references to
> elite forces of paired male homosexuals. There are some
> hints that they may have been formed with the goal of
> actings as trainers to the women in mind - but regardless
> of this they are portrayed as competent and
> compassionate. At least one of them is remarkably well
> educated for a soldier, which is consistent with the
> level of special forces selection which further selects
> for intelligence after selecting for the required
> physical and character attributes.

I realize all this. The fact remains that women and gays
are not integrated into the regular forces. Whatever
Kratman’s own views, about which I know nothing, this is one
way to handle them and still appeal to his usual right-wing
audience.

> I really must put Kratman's first book on my to-review
> list. I seem to be quite well positioned for it relative
> to the comments starting point, having just read Melissa
> Scott's Point of Hopes and Point of Dreams, and currently
> reading Ancillary Justice. (I regard Scott as light
> feel-good fantasy which I should regard as beneath me
> (Astrology, forsooth!) but which I return to again and
> again - the reread of Point of Hopes and Point of Dreams
> was a reward to myself for going to the Dentist).

I’ve not read anything by Melissa Scott, with or without
Lisa Barnett, that I’d describe as light, and ‘feel-good’ is
at least a bit of a stretch. However, re-reading the Points
novels is never a bad idea!

> (I expect this Kratman to be quite alien to me. I was
> brought up as an Ulster Protestant in Northern Ireland. I
> do not regard insurrection as a romantic duel of
> sharp-shooters, and I am somewhat wary of mixing religion
> and politics, or indeed religion and any form of
> authority whatsover).

Very understandable. I go a bit further: I’ve never had any
use for religion, full stop. But while I can enjoy many
stories with clear religious or political slants quite
different from my own, Kratman’s tracts just get on my
nerves, and I no longer even give them a look.

(I should perhaps add that I take no position at all on the
question of Jim Baen’s own views.)

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 15:43:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<l...@winsim.com> wrote in <news:lr3oct$f2u$1...@dont-email.me>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 7/27/2014 4:05 AM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 13:24:53 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote in <news:lr0rrp$ut1$1...@dont-email.me>
>> in rec.arts.sf.written:

>> [...]

>>> Kratman wrote a book called the _The Amazon Legion_ and
>>> Baene

>> Baen

> Sigh. Spelling has never been my strong point and
> it is getting worse by the day along with my eyesight.
> I looked at www.baenebooks.com and forgot that Baen
> sells ebooks.

I suspected that that was the source of the error; when I
first saw the URL, I had to stop and think for a moment to
realize where the <e> came from.

[...]

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 20:14:15 +0100, "A.G.McDowell"
<andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote in
<news:lr3j21$7t0$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 22/07/2014 14:58, Scott Lurndal wrote:

[...]

>> http://www.businessinsider.com/aerial-view-of-apples-spaceship-campus-2014-7

> I see from this link it is Apple's new 'Spaceship'
> headquarters. Is there something in the air in the USA
> that leads to glamourous names? Surely
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doughnut had at least
> equal mystique - but it gets called The Doughnut - I
> guess we go in for understatement rather than glamour
> over here (allegedly it has all the glamourous atmosphere
> of a second rate airport terminal inside).

I’ve a GCHQ souvenir pen from a friend who works for NSA; if
I remember (which I probably won’t), I’ll ask what it was
like inside The Doughnut.

[Don Kuenz]

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 20:14:15 +0100, "A.G.McDowell"
> <andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote in
> <news:lr3j21$7t0$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On 22/07/2014 14:58, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> http://www.businessinsider.com/aerial-view-of-apples-spaceship-campus-2014-7
>
>> I see from this link it is Apple's new 'Spaceship'
>> headquarters. Is there something in the air in the USA
>> that leads to glamourous names? Surely
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doughnut had at least
>> equal mystique - but it gets called The Doughnut - I
>> guess we go in for understatement rather than glamour
>> over here (allegedly it has all the glamourous atmosphere
>> of a second rate airport terminal inside).
>

> I?ve a GCHQ souvenir pen from a friend who works for NSA; if
> I remember (which I probably won?t), I?ll ask what it was
> like inside The Doughnut.

"A Sleepshop isn't so bad, is it? We toured one when I was
twelve, me and a friend of mine. In Paris. Clean and nice.
It isn't so bad."

Logan though of the Sleepshops with their gaily painted
interiors, the attendants in soft pastel robes, the
electronically augmented angel choirs, the skin spray of
Hallucinogen, which wiped away a confused look of suffering
and replaced it with a joyful smile. He thought of the
quiet dim-lit grave room lined with aluminum shelving, and
of the neat rows of steelfoil canisters marked with the
names and numbers of men.

"No," said Logan. "It isn't so bad."

_Logan's Run_

[Robert Carnegie]

On Sunday, 27 July 2014 23:08:13 UTC+1, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 20:14:15 +0100, "A.G.McDowell"
> <andrew-...@o2.co.uk> wrote in
> <news:lr3j21$7t0$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
> > On 22/07/2014 14:58, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> [...]
> >> http://www.businessinsider.com/aerial-view-of-apples-spaceship-campus-2014-7
>
> > I see from this link it is Apple's new 'Spaceship'
> > headquarters. Is there something in the air in the USA
> > that leads to glamourous names? Surely
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doughnut had at least
> > equal mystique - but it gets called The Doughnut - I
> > guess we go in for understatement rather than glamour
> > over here (allegedly it has all the glamourous atmosphere
> > of a second rate airport terminal inside).

I think it's just the nickname, but the principle still applies.
If we had the Pentagon we'd call it The Thruppeny Bit.

We have <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gherkin> - which,
to be fair, does look silly.

> I've a GCHQ souvenir pen from a friend who works for NSA; if
> I remember (which I probably won't), I'll ask what it was
> like inside The Doughnut.

But then you would have to kill us. With the pen.
Which is listening to us right now.

[Scott Lurndal]

Wow, who didn't notice the quotation marks?

Great film that probably couldn't be made today.

[Scott Lurndal]

He was quoting blazing saddles.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote in

news:GqidnaB13rxLA0nO...@earthlink.com:

> On 2014-07-26, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote:
>> On 7/25/2014 9:49 PM, William December Starr wrote:
>>> Me. And they deserve it.
>>
>> You know that with basic conflicts like this, the USA
>> is heading toward a civil war. The middle against
>> the coasts. Maybe 10 years, maybe 20 years. It will
>> make the War of Northern Aggression look like backyard
>> disagreement.
>
> Sigh. There's more people in the cities and towns than there are
> in the rural and farmland areas, and the former are
> better-organized and have access to better toys to boot.

None of which will grow food. Just because one side loses doesn't
mean the other side wins.

(Though I agree that the danger of civil war is complete bullshit.
People are too fucking apathetic to get off their asses.)

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in
news:fsovxl0l10dp.1q...@40tude.net:

It takes a special kind of stupid to a) not recognize the Blazing
Saddles *as* a quote, if not the source, and b) think that the
following comments were intended seriously.

YHBT, maroon.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote in

news:lr3o5m$dom$1...@dont-email.me:

Obviously. Or that it *was* a quote. Despite the quote marks around
it.

> You know, the great thing about
> that movie is that it insulted everyone equally.
>

Including itself. In fact, especially itself. Nobody but Mel Brooks
could have made it (or most of his other movies).

[William December Starr]

In article <lr0r3t$ok2$2...@dont-email.me>,

No, actually I don't know that.

-- wds

[William December Starr]

In article <XnsA3785FA0D3D...@69.16.179.43>,

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> said:

> Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com> wrote

>
>> You know, the great thing about that movie is that it insulted
>> everyone equally.
>
> Including itself. In fact, especially itself. Nobody but Mel
> Brooks could have made it (or most of his other movies).

Over in a private forum I'm in somebody who'd just watched "Blazing
Saddles" for the nth time said that they don't write 'em like that
anymore. And someone else pointed out that they didn't write 'em like
that before either.

-- wds

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in news:lr69cr$jnm$1
@panix2.panix.com:

Just because Lynn knows it doesn't mean it's true, after all. A lot
of people know a lot of things that aren't rue.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 09:22:43 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
<news:XnsA3785F67A8...@69.16.179.43> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in
> news:fsovxl0l10dp.1q...@40tude.net:

>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 13:12:13 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote in <news:lr0r3t$ok2$2...@dont-email.me>
>> in rec.arts.sf.written:

>>> It will make the War of Northern Aggression look like
>>> backyard disagreement.

>> William's comment was not just uncalled for but clearly
>> inaccurate; however, in my experience anyone who uses the

>> name 'War of Northern Ag[g]ression' is *at best* ignorant of

>> history, and the possible alternativs are much worse.

> It takes a special kind of stupid to a) not recognize the
> Blazing Saddles *as* a quote, if not the source,

I certainly wouldn’t recognize the source, since I’ve never
seen the movie and know almost nothing about it, and no, the
statement is not obviously a quotation.

[...]

[William December Starr]

In article <16as9ffwt9yq7.a...@40tude.net>,

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> said:

> Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote
>

>> It takes a special kind of stupid to a) not recognize the
>> Blazing Saddles *as* a quote, if not the source,
>
> I certainly wouldn't recognize the source, since I've never
> seen the movie and know almost nothing about it, and no, the
> statement is not obviously a quotation.

Serious question: what else would the quotation marks around it
suggest to you?

-- wds

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in

news:16as9ffwt9yq7.a...@40tude.net:

> On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 09:22:43 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
> Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <news:XnsA3785F67A8...@69.16.179.43> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in
>> news:fsovxl0l10dp.1q...@40tude.net:
>
>>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 13:12:13 -0500, Lynn McGuire
>>> <l...@winsim.com> wrote in <news:lr0r3t$ok2$2...@dont-email.me>
>>> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>>>> It will make the War of Northern Aggression look like
>>>> backyard disagreement.
>
>>> William's comment was not just uncalled for but clearly
>>> inaccurate; however, in my experience anyone who uses the
>>> name 'War of Northern Ag[g]ression' is *at best* ignorant of
>>> history, and the possible alternativs are much worse.
>
>> It takes a special kind of stupid to a) not recognize the
>> Blazing Saddles *as* a quote, if not the source,
>
> I certainly wouldn’t recognize the source, since I’ve never
> seen the movie and know almost nothing about it, and no, the
> statement is not obviously a quotation.
>

It. Had. Quote. Marks. Around. It.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) wrote in news:lr6dq5$4jq$1
@panix2.panix.com:

Not at all serious answer: Maybe he's narcissitic enough to actually
quote himself on a regular basis.

[Kurt Busiek]

On 2014-07-28 20:52:02 +0000, "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> said:

> On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 09:22:43 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
> Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <news:XnsA3785F67A8...@69.16.179.43> in
> rec.arts.sf.written:
>

>> It takes a special kind of stupid to a) not recognize the
>> Blazing Saddles *as* a quote, if not the source,
>
> I certainly wouldn’t recognize the source, since I’ve never
> seen the movie and know almost nothing about it, and no, the
> statement is not obviously a quotation.

The most common way to indicate something's a quotation is to put
quotation marks around it.

kdb
--
Visit http://www.busiek.com -- for all your Busiek needs!

[Brian M. Scott]

On 28 Jul 2014 17:03:01 -0400, William December Starr
<wds...@panix.com> wrote in
<news:lr6dq5$4jq$1...@panix2.panix.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

I thought that Terry was referring to Lynn’s comment about
the ‘War of Northern Aggression’: nothing of yours was
present in his post, and I’d completely forgotten that you’d
posted a quotation. And the comment of yours to which I was
referring was not the quotation, but rather the ‘And they
deserve it’.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 14:25:32 -0700, Kurt Busiek
<ku...@busiek.com> wrote in <news:lr6f4b$hge$1...@dont-email.me>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

I wasn’t talking about anything that had quotation marks
around it; see my response to William.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in

news:17te704i4s4gv$.1r8i7chd...@40tude.net:

> On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 14:25:32 -0700, Kurt Busiek
> <ku...@busiek.com> wrote in <news:lr6f4b$hge$1...@dont-email.me>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On 2014-07-28 20:52:02 +0000, "Brian M. Scott"
>> <b.s...@csuohio.edu> said:
>
>>> On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 09:22:43 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
>>> Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> <news:XnsA3785F67A8...@69.16.179.43> in
>>> rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>>>> It takes a special kind of stupid to a) not recognize the
>>>> Blazing Saddles *as* a quote, if not the source,
>
>>> I certainly wouldn’t recognize the source, since I’ve
>>> never seen the movie and know almost nothing about it, and no,
>>> the statement is not obviously a quotation.
>
>> The most common way to indicate something's a quotation is
>> to put quotation marks around it.
>
> I wasn’t talking about anything that had quotation marks
> around it; see my response to William.
>

So, when I referred to a quote from Blazing Saddles, you replied with
something completely, totally unrelated? At this point, your craven
inability to admit you fucked up has made you literally incoherent.
Do you even read what you reply to?

Dumbass.

[D.F. Manno]

In article <lr0r3t$ok2$2...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>

wrote:

> the War of Northern Aggression

ITYM the War of the Southern Traitors.

--
D.F. Manno | dfm...@mail.com
GOP delenda est!

[Paul Arthur]

On 2014-07-29, D.F. Manno <dfm...@mail.com> wrote:
> In article <lr0r3t$ok2$2...@dont-email.me>, Lynn McGuire <l...@winsim.com>
> wrote:
>
>> the War of Northern Aggression
>
> ITYM the War of the Southern Traitors.

The sigfile giveth, and the sigfile taketh away. Blessed be the name
of the sigmonster.

[G]iven the way the argument about how it started is still going, perhaps
"The Slave Owner's Rebellion of 1861 That They Started And Then Lied About
After They Lost" is more accurate. A bit lengthy though.
--Scholar and a Brutalman on RPGnet

[David Harmon]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 16:52:02 -0400 in rec.arts.sf.written, "Brian M.
Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote,

>I certainly wouldn�t recognize the source, since I�ve never
>seen the movie and know almost nothing about it, and no, the
>statement is not obviously a quotation.

It was indented as a block quote and enclosed in quotation marks.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote in
news:IJmdnVjc7ZoDRUrO...@earthlink.com:

I expect that if WDS had dropped the block on Brian's head, he still
wouldn't have gotten it. This is entirely on Brian.

[Robert Carnegie]

It still /might/ not be a quotation - or might be
a quotation not to be recognised except by the person
quoting, which is much the same thing. It happens that
"I am very sorry you are not well" is a line from
Shakespeare, but one of the less ringing ones.

Indeed, another way to use quote marks is to put
words in the mouth of a straw man, with or without
a pretence of paraphrasing what someone else said.
e.g. "That's what I think and I'm completely
unconscious of how stupid it is."

And I was not fully familiar with it - but Google
found it for me.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> wrote in
news:03e9e0e2-ed52-4fc1...@googlegroups.com:

There is a difference between recognizing the quote - I had to look
up where it was from - and recognizing that it *is* a quote, whether
you have any idea from where or not. And in this context, a
paraphrase is the same thing.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 10:22:09 -0700, David Harmon
<sou...@netcom.com> wrote in
<news:IJmdnVjc7ZoDRUrO...@earthlink.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

As you should know, since you’re coming very late to the
party and I explained the matter almost a day ago, that is
not the statement to which I was referring.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote in

news:1eq5yzmndbnb1.a...@40tude.net:

Or so you claim now. You were replying directly to a comment about
it, however.

[David Harmon]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 13:18:15 -0700 in rec.arts.sf.written, Gutless
Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> wrote,

>There is a difference between recognizing the quote - I had to look
>up where it was from - and recognizing that it *is* a quote, whether
>you have any idea from where or not.

_Skin Game_, the latest Dresden Files, Harry keeps coming out with
movie quotes and getting frustrated that his various non-human and
semi-human associates don't properly appreciate his wit.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

As opposed to his normal situation where he gets frustrated that his human associates don't properly appreciate his wit...

[A.G.McDowell]

That reminds me of one of the classic responses to censorship -
discussing situations in permitted contexts (such as classical
literature) which could not legally be spoken about in the context of
the present day. Do you believe that current circumstances here
encourage this?

[Robert Carnegie]

Um - I don't know. We were quoting _Blazing Saddles_,
in which the town resists accepting a black man as
sheriff, but I think we were discussing homosexuals
and homosexuality in military service. So - maybe,
but, heck, we're rec.arts.sf.written . So let's talk
about _The Forever War_, in space, where it's compulsory.

Uh, I don't mean that homosexuality is compulsory in space.
I mean it's compulsory (as time passes) in _The Forever War_.

[Larry Headlund]

In The Forever War heterosexual promiscuity is compulsory among recruits in training in the early parts. Later on homosexuality becomes standard behavior but perhaps not compulsory: the viewpoint character is not required to engage in homosexual behavior, but then again by that time he is the highest ranking officer around. We don't know if they kept the compulsory promiscuity for recruits at that point.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote in

news:zf6dndqIReLT-EXO...@earthlink.com:

NCIS was doing that years ago.

[A.G.McDowell]

The compulsion is by personality alteration rather than legal
enforcement, and seems to have started, at least, as a means of
population control. In Bujold's Ethan of Athos there is a planet of
originally self-selected male homosexuals. I'm not sure how they ensure
the sexuality of males birthed on the planet (Artificial insemination
followed by artificial wombs - the Uterine Replicator), but there seems
to be a lot of propaganda and censorship around the topic of women.
Ensuring population stability and education is an important societal
expenditure in Athos, since the male homosexual population does not
regard child-rearing as a fulfilling alternative to other possible work.
Both stories appear to agree that homosexuality would be extremely
effective population control.

Legally compelled homosexuallity in the military seems very doubtful to
me. If exclusive pairs are compelled, then marriages of convenience are
likely to arise, where both partners agree to a platonic relationship.
Does anybody know whether this happened in classical Greece?

Promiscuous homosexuality, like promiscuous heterosexuality, is a
hygiene problem, and I conjecture that today's armies, which still have
minor hygiene problems, are at a minimum disease risk, as we have
effective antibiotics but the risk of bacteriological warefare appears
to be small in practice, although of course NBC precautions are made and
trained for.

Unsanctioned heterosexual relationships involving military personal have
been a problem between at least from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathsheba to
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2707823/Royal-Navys-warship-commander-crewmate-affair-storm-never-allowed-run-ship-again.html.
Thucydides chronicles a homosexual affair causing political problems as
follows:

"Harmodius was then in the flower of youthful beauty, and Aristogiton, a
citizen in the middle rank of life, was his lover and possessed him.
Solicited without success by Hipparchus, son of Pisistratus, Harmodius
told Aristogiton, and the enraged lover, afraid that the powerful
Hipparchus might take Harmodius by force, immediately formed a design,
such as his condition in life permitted, for overthrowing the tyranny. "

I therefore claim that military organisations are likely to gain by
regulating and restricting sexual relationships of any variety, and are
unlikely to gain by enforcing them.

[William December Starr]

In article <XnsA37A5CE43EB...@69.16.179.43>,
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy <taus...@gmail.com> said:

> David Harmon <sou...@netcom.com> wrote

>
>> _Skin Game_, the latest Dresden Files, Harry keeps coming out
>> with movie quotes and getting frustrated that his various
>> non-human and semi-human associates don't properly appreciate
>> his wit.
>
> NCIS was doing that years ago.

Yeah, but Harry Dresden's no Tony DiNozzo.

(And vice versa. (For which they are both probably grateful.))

-- wds