Nightfall: Expanded Version By Isaac Asimov & Robert Silverberg
Tim Bruening
primary Onos (yellow), Trey (white), Patru (white), Trano (white, I
think), Sitha (also white, I think), and Dovim (small and red). Since
all of Kalgash is always in sunlight, the people of Kalgash are
unfamiliar with darkness and are therefore extremely frightened of it.
Even 15 minutes of darkness (as demonstrated by a Tunnel of Darkness at
the Jonglor Centennial Exposition) is enough rattle any Kalgashian, and
cause many to go insane.
Unbeknownst to most Kalgashians, Kalgash has a satellite (dubbed
"Kalgash Two" by the astronomers who discover it by noting its
gravitational effects on Kalgash's orbit). The light from Kalgash Two
is drowned out by the light from the six suns, so no one sees it.
However, every 2,049 years, Kalgash Two eclipse Dovim, on a day when
Dovim is the only sun in its hemisphere (the other five are on the other
side of Kalgash). At that time, Kalgash Two is at perigee, and Dovim is
at its greatest distance from Kalgash, so Kalgash Two has seven times
Dovim's apparent diameter. As a result, Kalgash Two eclipses Dovim for
over half a day, exposing all of Kalgash to Darkness and causing tens of
thousands of Stars to become visible. The combination of the Darkness
and the Stars drives everyone mad! The Kalgashians, in a desperate need
for light, burn down all their cities, plunging their societies into
barbarism. This cycle has happened at least 7 times, according to
archeological records. Its about to happen again. A fundamentalist
religious group known at "The Apostles of Flame" has been trying to warn
people of the coming disaster, but they come off as religious fanatics,
so few people listen. When a group of scientists discovers the coming
disaster and tries to warn the world, they too are considered crazy,
tarred by association with the Apostles' preachings of doom unless the
people repent their sins. Thus, the people in general don't make
preparations, and go nuts when the eclipse hits.
Nits: When Kalgash Two eclipses Dovim, the other five suns are on the
other side of Kalgash from Kalgash Two. Shouldn't light from those suns
light up Kalgash Two, and enough of it reflect off to relieve the
Darkness?
Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
The book uses equivalent English terms for Kalgashian units of distance
and time. Thus, the Kalgashian mile is roughly equivalent to the Earth
mile, and the Kalgashian hour is roughly equivalent to the Earth hour.
Page 151 of hardback version: An astronomer named Beenay 25 gives the
speed of light as 185,000 Kalgashian miles per Kalgashian HOUR, as
opposed to the Earth figure of 186,282 Earth miles per Earth SECOND.
The Kalgashian figure would seem to be impossible unless Kalgash is in a
universe where the speed of light is 3,600 times slower than in our
universe.
I wonder why Kalgashian names have numbers at the ends.
David Johnston
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>Nits: When Kalgash Two eclipses Dovim, the other five suns are on the
>other side of Kalgash from Kalgash Two. Shouldn't light from those suns
>light up Kalgash Two, and enough of it reflect off to relieve the
>Darkness?
I guess they needed more.
>
>Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
>scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
>powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
>the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
If they'd invented the electric light, which they hadn't.
David Harmon
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote,
>Nits: When Kalgash Two eclipses Dovim, the other five suns are on the
>other side of Kalgash from Kalgash Two. Shouldn't light from those suns
>light up Kalgash Two, and enough of it reflect off to relieve the
>Darkness?
Maybe, but it sounds like those folks have really poor night vision.
Tim Bruening
David Harmon wrote:
Shouldn't a lot of light reach Kalgash 2 from Onos (Dovim, and therefore
Kalgash 2 seem to be more northerly than Onos, so light from Onos should miss
Kalgash and hit Kalgash 2, then reflect back down to Kalgash to keep the
people sane. Also, Kalgash 2 at that time would look pretty big, being 7
times the apparent size of Dovim, so should be able to reflect a lot of
light).
tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us
Everyone had battery powered "Godlights" in their bedrooms, and I saw
mention of
lightbulbs in the Sanctuary the scientists had set up, and mention of
the lights
going out if the power plants and transmission lines got destroyed
during Darkness
triggered riots, and one of the characters getting a flashlight shone
in her face.
This indicates that the Kalgashians DID have electric lights!
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>>Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
>>scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
>>powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
>>the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
>
>If they'd invented the electric light, which they hadn't.
Obviously they must not have underground mines.
Brian Davis
essentially a short story based on the idea of how a culture might
react to the stars being visible "once in a thousand years". You might
be asking for a *lot* more hard science here than the story has any
reason to offer...
On Nov 22, 1:47 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> The light from Kalgash Two is drowned out by the light from the six
> suns, so no one sees it.
Which seems remarkably unlikely, as you can see our Moon in daylight
even when it is close to the Sun, and certainly when it is well
removed from it. In 2,049 years, there should be many *many* times
there are only one or two "suns" in the sky. The phases might be
rather remarkable at times too.
> However, every 2,049 years, Kalgash Two eclipse Dovim, on a day when
> Dovim is the only sun in its hemisphere (the other five are on the other
> side of Kalgash). At that time, Kalgash Two is at perigee, and Dovim is
> at its greatest distance from Kalgash, so Kalgash Two has seven times
> Dovim's apparent diameter. As a result, Kalgash Two eclipses Dovim for
> over half a day, exposing all of Kalgash to Darkness and causing tens of
> thousands of Stars to become visible.
Hmm. Not that I can see. One side of the planet is lit by five "suns",
one side is lit by one dim red sun that goes into eclipse. That would
mean at best half the planet goes into eclipse. For the eclipse to
last for "more than half a day" you've got to have a *very* slow-
moving moon... but you've specified it's at pericentron to get maximum
apparent angular diameter, so it is moving at it's fastest. The star
may have a tiny angular diameter relative to the Moon, but for the
eclipse to last anywhere for more than half a day implies the moon can
move no more than one moon diameter in one day, which would seem to
be... very slow. And this is ignoring the fact that an eclipse usually
doesn't cover the entire hemisphere... and certainly couldn't cover a
whole hemisphere for the whole time.
> Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
I don't know about the extended version. The original version doesn't
have electricity (which makes the entire situation much more
believable). Also consider that if you are a culture that is terrified
to the point of mental instability by darkness, and who's planet never
has night, it would seem to me that flashlights and streetlights would
be rather unlikely to be invented. And if culturally you *have* gone
so far as to create those things, you'd have a rather good cultural
grasp on darkness anyway
> I wonder why Kalgashian names have numbers at the ends.
Because it sounds "alien"?
I notice in the Wikipedia article they mention that there are not a
lot of distances specified. It really sounds like there's not enough
information to construct the orbital mechanics in detail... perhaps
for a very good reason.
--
Brian Davis
Ogden Johnson III
>This story concerns the planet Kalgash, which is lit by six suns: The
>primary Onos (yellow), Trey (white), Patru (white), Trano (white, I
>think), Sitha (also white, I think), and Dovim (small and red). Since
>all of Kalgash is always in sunlight, the people of Kalgash are
>unfamiliar with darkness and are therefore extremely frightened of it.
>Even 15 minutes of darkness (as demonstrated by a Tunnel of Darkness at
>the Jonglor Centennial Exposition) is enough rattle any Kalgashian, and
>cause many to go insane.
[Snips]
I, probably like many in one or more of these newsgroups
(mn.humor???!!!???!!!, I suspect not a hotbed of Asimov/SF fans),
have never read "Nightfall: Expanded Version By Isaac Asimov &
Robert Silverberg"; for me under the theory that IA had done
pretty good with the original story and the addition of
Silverbob's hands probably did not bode well for the "Expanded
Version." IME (50+ years and counting in reading SF) , fooling
around with existing works in any genre by expanding them, adding
a "co-author" or two, etc., rarely result in a new work that
isn't a total POS. (Don't get me started on transitions of SF
stories and novel{ette, la}s to film. Follywood has a dismal
track record in this.)
I would have appreciated it if you would have contrasted how the
original "Nightfall" story handled or did not handle the items
you have identified in your post.
--
OJ III
Juho Julkunen
22:47:06 -0800, Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> says...
> Nits:
> Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
Simply? I can imagine some good reasons for lack of city lights on a
planet with no night. Or why people might not take the warning "stay
indoors or go insane" seriously.
Also, I was under the impression that the philosophical implications of
the stars (universe is a lot bigger than you thought) was a major
factor.
--
Juho Julkunen
tkma...@yahoo.co.uk
> Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
came true - so their following grows. They did stay indoors & came out
healthy - if I recall correctly.
Scientists did try but were ridiculed.
> The book uses equivalent English terms for Kalgashian units of distance
> and time. Thus, the Kalgashian mile is roughly equivalent to the Earth
> mile, and the Kalgashian hour is roughly equivalent to the Earth hour.
If I recall correctly, when introducing the book, Asimov mentioned he is
not going to talk of differences with humans, & focus only on the main
story - letting them use whatever they do for familiar things while he
uses human understandable terms. I think it was in preface or something
- it's been years since I read it (novel version).
> Page 151 of hardback version: An astronomer named Beenay 25 gives the
> speed of light as 185,000 Kalgashian miles per Kalgashian HOUR, as
> opposed to the Earth figure of 186,282 Earth miles per Earth SECOND.
> The Kalgashian figure would seem to be impossible unless Kalgash is in a
> universe where the speed of light is 3,600 times slower than in our
> universe.
I don't have my copy handy, but could not this have been a typo?
> I wonder why Kalgashian names have numbers at the ends.
This appears in other stories of the era too - like Ayn Rand's Anthem. I
recall at least one more story with this naming convention - cannot
recollect the name.
Tim Bruening
Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <474525EA...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, on Wed, 21 Nov 2007
> 22:47:06 -0800, Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> says...
>
> > Nits:
>
> > Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> > scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> > powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> > the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
>
> Simply? I can imagine some good reasons for lack of city lights on a
> planet with no night. Or why people might not take the warning "stay
> indoors or go insane" seriously.
Most people certainly didn't take the Apostles seriously, because they were
acting like religious fanatics! I believe that if the Apostles had cut the
religious crap and focused on getting people to stay indoors, not look at
the Stars, and keep their battery powered "Godlights" on, they would have
been more successful.
The Apostles could say: The Gods are going to block out Dovim because of
our sins! Come to our well lit churches to pray to the Gods for
forgiveness! They could also pay to have battery powered outdoor lights
erected in all the major cities (they are described as being very wealthy!).
I don't know if the planet is at all tilted with respect to its orbital
plane. If it is, and one hemisphere is experiencing summer, everyone could
travel to near the summer hemisphere's pole, which would be lit by Onos
24/7!
Tim Bruening
Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <474525EA...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, on Wed, 21 Nov 2007
> 22:47:06 -0800, Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> says...
>
> > Nits:
>
> > Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> > scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> > powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> > the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
>
> Simply? I can imagine some good reasons for lack of city lights on a
> planet with no night. Or why people might not take the warning "stay
> indoors or go insane" seriously.
I believe that a major point in both the original story and the expanded
novel is that the Apostles' efforts to mitigate the disaster were
undermined by their emphasis on fire and brimstone sermons, such as
Mondior 71 saying on page 110 of the hardback novel "Nothing can save
the world from the wrath of the gods, nothing except a willingness to
abandon sin, to give up evil, to devote oneself to the path of virtue
and righteousness". Their fire and brimstone speeches alienated many
people who might otherwise have listened to them.
A suggestion for the Apostles: Tell everyone that the gods want them to
stay indoors during the time of Darkness and surround themselves with
plenty of lights.
Another point of interest: At the end of the expanded story, former
reporter Theremon agrees to help the Apostles take over and rebuild
society. He explains to his girlfriend that the Apostles are the only
group that can govern the planet and keep the Darkness traumatized
people under control via religion. The Apostles had already taken
control of much of Saros, protected from the rioters their section of
Saros city, had a large supply of working trucks, and were planning to
restore TV transmissions within a few weeks. I am optimistic that by
the time of the next eclipse, Kalgash will have interstellar space
ships! I wonder how the Kalgashians will be able to colonize planets
that have regular periods of darkness!
tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us
Brian Davis wrote:
> Note: "Nightfall" is (or was; I've never read the "expanded version")
> essentially a short story based on the idea of how a culture might
> react to the stars being visible "once in a thousand years". You might
> be asking for a *lot* more hard science here than the story has any
> reason to offer...
>
> On Nov 22, 1:47 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> > The light from Kalgash Two is drowned out by the light from the six
> > suns, so no one sees it.
>
> Which seems remarkably unlikely, as you can see our Moon in daylight
> even when it is close to the Sun, and certainly when it is well
> removed from it. In 2,049 years, there should be many *many* times
> there are only one or two "suns" in the sky. The phases might be
> rather remarkable at times too.
The astronomers were speculating that Kalgash Two's surface was
colored blue,
which would match Kalgash's blue sky.
>
> > However, every 2,049 years, Kalgash Two eclipse Dovim, on a day when
> > Dovim is the only sun in its hemisphere (the other five are on the other
> > side of Kalgash). At that time, Kalgash Two is at perigee, and Dovim is
> > at its greatest distance from Kalgash, so Kalgash Two has seven times
> > Dovim's apparent diameter. As a result, Kalgash Two eclipses Dovim for
> > over half a day, exposing all of Kalgash to Darkness and causing tens of
> > thousands of Stars to become visible.
>
> Hmm. Not that I can see. One side of the planet is lit by five "suns",
> one side is lit by one dim red sun that goes into eclipse. That would
> mean at best half the planet goes into eclipse. For the eclipse to
> last for "more than half a day" you've got to have a *very* slow-
> moving moon... but you've specified it's at pericentron to get maximum
> apparent angular diameter, so it is moving at it's fastest. The star
> may have a tiny angular diameter relative to the Moon, but for the
> eclipse to last anywhere for more than half a day implies the moon can
> move no more than one moon diameter in one day, which would seem to
> be... very slow. And this is ignoring the fact that an eclipse usually
> doesn't cover the entire hemisphere... and certainly couldn't cover a
> whole hemisphere for the whole time.
Kalgash Two was almost as big as Kalgash in the expanded version.
>
> > Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> > scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> > powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> > the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
>
> I don't know about the extended version. The original version doesn't
> have electricity (which makes the entire situation much more
> believable). Also consider that if you are a culture that is terrified
> to the point of mental instability by darkness, and who's planet never
> has night, it would seem to me that flashlights and streetlights would
> be rather unlikely to be invented. And if culturally you *have* gone
> so far as to create those things, you'd have a rather good cultural
> grasp on darkness anyway
Okay, in the original version, just tell everyone to stay indoors in
front of their
fireplaces during the eclipse, or build big bonfires away from trees
and houses.
The extended version does have electric lights, including battery
powered
"Godlights", lightbulbs in the Sanctuarys, and flashlights. There are
even
needle guns, which emit narrow beams of light that can kill. These
sound like
lasers to me.
tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us
Ogden Johnson III wrote:
> Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >This story concerns the planet Kalgash, which is lit by six suns: The
> >primary Onos (yellow), Trey (white), Patru (white), Trano (white, I
> >think), Sitha (also white, I think), and Dovim (small and red). Since
> >all of Kalgash is always in sunlight, the people of Kalgash are
> >unfamiliar with darkness and are therefore extremely frightened of it.
> >Even 15 minutes of darkness (as demonstrated by a Tunnel of Darkness at
> >the Jonglor Centennial Exposition) is enough rattle any Kalgashian, and
> >cause many to go insane.
> [Snips]
>
> I, probably like many in one or more of these newsgroups
> (mn.humor???!!!???!!!, I suspect not a hotbed of Asimov/SF fans),
> have never read "Nightfall: Expanded Version By Isaac Asimov &
> Robert Silverberg"; for me under the theory that IA had done
> pretty good with the original story and the addition of
> Silverbob's hands probably did not bode well for the "Expanded
> Version." IME (50+ years and counting in reading SF) , fooling
> around with existing works in any genre by expanding them, adding
> a "co-author" or two, etc., rarely result in a new work that
> isn't a total POS. (Don't get me started on transitions of SF
> stories and novel{ette, la}s to film. Follywood has a dismal
> track record in this.)
I think that a movie version of Nightfall might be interesting, or
perhaps an
Outer Limits episode, which would end with everyone going insane as
the
Stars appear.
>
> I would have appreciated it if you would have contrasted how the
> original "Nightfall" story handled or did not handle the items
> you have identified in your post.
I can't find my copy of the original story, so I couldn't do any
contrasting.
Dan Goodman
> Another point of interest: At the end of the expanded story, former
> reporter Theremon agrees to help the Apostles take over and rebuild
> society.
And right there are two betrayals of the original story.
1) Theremon apparently is still sane.
2) The Theremon of the original story wouldn't have made such an
alliance. And the Apostles of the original story wouldn't have been
worth allying with.
Coming next: R. Daneel Olivaw woke up. It had all been a dream.
--
Dan Goodman
"I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers.".
Tennessee Williams, A Streetcar Named Expire
Journal http://dsgood.livejournal.com
Futures http://dangoodman.livejournal.com
mirror: http://dsgood.insanejournal.com
Links http://del.icio.us/dsgood
Tim Bruening
Juho Julkunen wrote:
Military implications of Kalgash's six suns: Kalgashian armies couldn't
attack under cover of darkness since its was almost never dark, but
Kalgashian interrogators probably often threatened prisoners with exposure
to Darkness to make them talk.
I imagine that the Kalgashians would have great difficulties making
themselves mine for coal underground, so they would have to dig strip mines.
First Kalgashian astronaut: I see Stars! Yii!!!!!
tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us
Dan Goodman wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > Another point of interest: At the end of the expanded story, former
> > reporter Theremon agrees to help the Apostles take over and rebuild
> > society.
>
> And right there are two betrayals of the original story.
>
> 1) Theremon apparently is still sane.
He did go nuts at the time of the eclipse, and didn't regain his
senses until the 3rd
day after the eclipse.
>
> 2) The Theremon of the original story wouldn't have made such an
> alliance. And the Apostles of the original story wouldn't have been
> worth allying with.
The original story ended at the moment the eclipse became complete, so
we don't
know what Theremon and the Apostles would have done after the eclipse
ended
in the original story.
JimboCat
And clearly, all their caves and tunnels were above-ground, too...
Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"It's the little blue guys who never invented electronics and still
received our signal who have a lot to teach us." -- Wildepad
tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us
JimboCat wrote:
> Howard Brazee wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 07:31:09 GMT, David Johnston <da...@block.net>
> >wrote:
>
> >>>Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> >>>scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> >>>powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> >>>the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
> >>
> >>If they'd invented the electric light, which they hadn't.
> >
> >Obviously they must not have underground mines.
>
> And clearly, all their caves and tunnels were above-ground, too...
In the original story, the Lagashians did not have electric lights
(Theremon is told
that fire is the only artifical way to produce light). However, the
scientists' Hideout
did send a message to the Observatory via a private line, implying
some
electronic way (probably telegraph or telephone) of sending messages
without
having to send a messenger through the Darkness maddened mobs of Saro
City.
Ground cars are also mentioned. How did they operate? Did they have
spark
plugs? If not, how did they ignite the fuel. What fuels did they
use?
How did the Lagashians keep enclosed rooms lit?
In the expanded version, the Kalgashians did have electric lights
(Battery powered
godlights in every bedroom, light bulbs in the Sanctuaries, and
flashlights).Hence, I asked why the people who knew about the coming
eclipse didn't lobby to
have battery powered lights installed outdoors.
Richard Schultz
: How did the Lagashians keep enclosed rooms lit?
In the original story, it is implied that they didn't have any enclosed
rooms, except for those made for special purposes (e.g. the amusement
park ride at the Jonglor Exposition).
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
". . .but even if it was an error, it had nevertheless a sort of grandeur. . ."
--Franz Kafka, "Investigations of a Dog"
Tim Bruening
Richard Schultz wrote:
> In alt.books.isaac-asimov tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
>
> : How did the Lagashians keep enclosed rooms lit?
>
> In the original story, it is implied that they didn't have any enclosed
> rooms, except for those made for special purposes (e.g. the amusement
> park ride at the Jonglor Exposition).
That would limit the size of the buildings they could build. The buildings have to
stay small enough for all rooms to have at least one window facing the outside so
that light can get in.
Tim Bruening
Richard Schultz wrote:
> In alt.books.isaac-asimov tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
>
> : How did the Lagashians keep enclosed rooms lit?
>
> In the original story, it is implied that they didn't have any enclosed
> rooms, except for those made for special purposes (e.g. the amusement
> park ride at the Jonglor Exposition).
Living on a world without darkness would have interesting implications for warfare:
No concept of attacking under cover of darkness (for either soldiers or burglars),
since there's no darkness. However, both military and police interrogators could
use threats of exposure to darkness to make prisoners talk.
I wonder how the Lagashians/Kalgashians mined for coal underground.
Knightfall: Medieval warriors hit the ground.
Tim Bruening
primary Onos (yellow), Trey (white), Patru (white), Trano (white, I
think), Sitha (also white, I think), and Dovim (small and red). Since
all of Kalgash is always in sunlight, the people of Kalgash are
unfamiliar with darkness and are therefore extremely frightened of it.
Even 15 minutes of darkness (as demonstrated by a Tunnel of Darkness at
the Jonglor Centennial Exposition) is enough rattle any Kalgashian, and
cause many to go insane.
Unbeknownst to most Kalgashians, Kalgash has a satellite (dubbed
"Kalgash Two" by the astronomers who discover it by noting its
gravitational effects on Kalgash's orbit). The light from Kalgash Two
is drowned out by the light from the six suns, so no one sees it.
However, every 2,049 years, Kalgash Two eclipse Dovim, on a day when
Dovim is the only sun in its hemisphere (the other five are on the other
side of Kalgash). At that time, Kalgash Two is at perigee, and Dovim is
at its greatest distance from Kalgash, so Kalgash Two has seven times
Dovim's apparent diameter. As a result, Kalgash Two eclipses Dovim for
over half a day, exposing all of Kalgash to Darkness and causing tens of
thousands of Stars to become visible. The combination of the Darkness
and the Stars drives everyone mad! The Kalgashians, in a desperate need
for light, burn down all their cities, plunging their societies into
barbarism.
Nits: When Kalgash Two eclipses Dovim, the other five suns are on the
other side of Kalgash from Kalgash Two. Shouldn't light from those suns
light up Kalgash Two, and enough of it reflect off to relieve the
Darkness?
Kalgashian astronomers can see asteroids. How can they see asteroids in a
sky that's never dark?
Richard Schultz
In a one-story building, interior rooms could be lit via skylights. Even in
a multi-story building, you could get natural light to interior rooms by
constructing the building around a central stairwell with a skylight such
that light from the skylight can enter interior rooms via interior windows
(this would allow a building to have two layers of rooms. But we don't know
how much privacy the Lagashians needed, nor the exact path that the various
suns traced in its sky. One could build the exterior rooms with interior
doors and windows placed such that natural light will always reach the
interior room.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
David Johnston
They didn't. I would assume any mining they did was strip-mining.
Tim Bruening
David Johnston wrote:
I can imagine the local environmentalists fainting from horror!
Tim Bruening
Richard Schultz wrote:
> In alt.books.isaac-asimov Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> : Richard Schultz wrote:
> :> In alt.books.isaac-asimov tsbr...@dcn.davis.ca.us wrote:
>
> :> : How did the Lagashians keep enclosed rooms lit?
>
> :> In the original story, it is implied that they didn't have any enclosed
> :> rooms, except for those made for special purposes (e.g. the amusement
> :> park ride at the Jonglor Exposition).
>
> : That would limit the size of the buildings they could build. The buildings
> : have to stay small enough for all rooms to have at least one window facing
> : the outside so that light can get in.
>
> In a one-story building, interior rooms could be lit via skylights. Even in
> a multi-story building, you could get natural light to interior rooms by
> constructing the building around a central stairwell with a skylight such
> that light from the skylight can enter interior rooms via interior windows
> (this would allow a building to have two layers of rooms. But we don't know
> how much privacy the Lagashians needed, nor the exact path that the various
> suns traced in its sky. One could build the exterior rooms with interior
> doors and windows placed such that natural light will always reach the
> interior room.
As for the Kalgashians in the expanded version, who had technology comparable to
late 20th century Earth, I bet that solar power is a bigger source of energy than
on Earth!
David Johnston
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
It would never occur to them that there was an alternative.
Tim Bruening
Juho Julkunen wrote:
Military implications of Kalgash's six suns: Kalgashian armies couldn't
Tim Bruening
Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <474525EA...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, on Wed, 21 Nov 2007
> 22:47:06 -0800, Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> says...
>
> > Nits:
>
> > Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> > scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> > powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> > the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
>
> Simply? I can imagine some good reasons for lack of city lights on a
> planet with no night. Or why people might not take the warning "stay
> indoors or go insane" seriously.
I got the impression that the Apostles were quite wealthy, so could pay to
set up outdoor lights, and pay for a major advertising campaign urging
everyone to stay indoors with their "God lights" on.
Jon Schild
But the more you urge people to stay inside, the more of them are going
to have to take a look to see what it's all about.
--
The problem is not that the world is full of fools, it's that lightning
isn't being distributed correctly.
-- Mark Twain
SolomonW
>
>
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> > Juho Julkunen wrote:
> >
> >
> >>In article <474525EA...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, on Wed, 21 Nov 2007
> >>22:47:06 -0800, Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> says...
> >>
> >>
> >>>Nits:
> >>
> >>>Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> >>>scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> >>>powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> >>>the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
> >>
> >>Simply? I can imagine some good reasons for lack of city lights on a
> >>planet with no night. Or why people might not take the warning "stay
> >>indoors or go insane" seriously.
> >
> >
> > I got the impression that the Apostles were quite wealthy, so could pay to
> > set up outdoor lights, and pay for a major advertising campaign urging
> > everyone to stay indoors with their "God lights" on.
> >
>
> But the more you urge people to stay inside, the more of them are going
> to have to take a look to see what it's all about.
>
>
Very few actually in percentage terms.
In one city that had a solar eclipse. The local government conducted a
campaign that everyone should stay inside and watch it on TV because
they could damage their eyes if they stared at the sun. There was no
way, I was going to do that so when the eclipse was on, I went outside
to experience it. The streets were almost empty.
Most people do trust the government.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<Solo...@NoEmailAddress.com> wrote:
>Most people do trust the government.
That's horrible. And terrifying.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
The ninth issue of the Hugo-nominated webzine Helix
is now at http://www.helixsf.com
Remus Shepherd
> In article <gab707$inv$1...@news.xmission.com>, j...@xmission.com says...
> > > set up outdoor lights, and pay for a major advertising campaign urging
> > > everyone to stay indoors with their "God lights" on.
> >
> > But the more you urge people to stay inside, the more of them are going
> > to have to take a look to see what it's all about.
> Very few actually in percentage terms.
> In one city that had a solar eclipse. The local government conducted a
> campaign that everyone should stay inside and watch it on TV because
> they could damage their eyes if they stared at the sun. There was no
> way, I was going to do that so when the eclipse was on, I went outside
> to experience it. The streets were almost empty.
> Most people do trust the government.
This depends *entirely* on the social and psychological makeup of your
fictional people. As far as human populations go some trust their government,
some do not, and those extremes tend to clump together.
In Earth terms, I'd expect most Chinese would stay inside, while a
large portion of Americans would go outside and go insane. (Whether
anyone could tell that the Americans were insane is a different issue. ;) )
... ...
Remus Shepherd <re...@panix.com>
Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/remus_shepherd/
Comic: http://indepos.comicgenesis.com/
Michael Stemper
>On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:56:55 +1000, SolomonW <Solo...@NoEmailAddress.com> wrote:
>>Most people do trust the government.
>
>That's horrible. And terrifying.
Indeed, a sad commentary on the US.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
"Writing about jazz is like dancing about architecture" - Thelonious Monk
Lawrence Watt-Evans
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <47hic49mk6phqdh3h...@news.rcn.com>, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>>On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:56:55 +1000, SolomonW <Solo...@NoEmailAddress.com> wrote:
>
>>>Most people do trust the government.
>>
>>That's horrible. And terrifying.
>
>Indeed, a sad commentary on the US.
I wasn't limiting it to the U.S.
lal_truckee
> First Kalgashian astronaut: I see Stars! Yii!!!!!
This quoted line got me to thinking about telescopes. Certainly the
Kalgash are advanced enough to have telescopes for "terrestrial" use.
But if you aim a terrestrial telescope at the day sky you can see the
stars; so would the Kalgash. It seems to me that the Kalgash would have
discovered and charted the stars long before "nightfall" and would know
in detail what to expect.
I categorize _Nightfall_ with _Cold Equations_ - cool idea but doesn't
hold up under serious consideration.
On the other hand, that failure doesn't diminish the stories for me, as
such failure apparently does for some people.
David DeLaney
>This quoted line got me to thinking about telescopes. Certainly the
>Kalgash are advanced enough to have telescopes for "terrestrial" use.
>But if you aim a terrestrial telescope at the day sky you can see the
>stars; so would the Kalgash. It seems to me that the Kalgash would have
>discovered and charted the stars long before "nightfall" and would know
>in detail what to expect.
...see the stars THROUGH the scattered illumination that renders the sky
blue? I don't THINK so, young man. If you could do so, you could do so
without a telescope at all. Having a telescope does not magically render
a very small portion of the sky black. (See also urban legends about seeing
the stars overhead at noon while down the bottom of a well / a very deep
crack in the earth; it doesn't work that way. The piece of the sky you're
looking it is not "picking up its blue color solely because you're SEEING
the sun over in _that_ part of the sky" - it's real actual scattered
sunlight that's coming to you FROM that little piece of sky.)
Heck, if you could do that, you could do it simply by wrapping your hands
binocular-style around your eyes and looking through them at a small piece
of sky. You may wish to attempt the experiment.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Michael Stemper
>On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:06:11 +0200 (CEST), mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>>In article <47hic49mk6phqdh3h...@news.rcn.com>, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
>>>On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:56:55 +1000, SolomonW <Solo...@NoEmailAddress.com> wrote:
>>>>Most people do trust the government.
>>>
>>>That's horrible. And terrifying.
>>
>>Indeed, a sad commentary on the US.
>
>I wasn't limiting it to the U.S.
Mistrust of the government is supposed to be an American value. I
don't really expect it from others (except maybe our cousins to the
north), but I do expect it from *us*.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?
netcat
says...
> In article <nalic4lefarvo0722...@news.rcn.com>, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
> >On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:06:11 +0200 (CEST), mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
> >>In article <47hic49mk6phqdh3h...@news.rcn.com>, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> writes:
> >>>On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:56:55 +1000, SolomonW <Solo...@NoEmailAddress.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>Most people do trust the government.
> >>>
> >>>That's horrible. And terrifying.
> >>
> >>Indeed, a sad commentary on the US.
> >
> >I wasn't limiting it to the U.S.
>
> Mistrust of the government is supposed to be an American value. I
> don't really expect it from others
You're kidding, right?
rgds,
netcat
Juho Julkunen
net...@devnull.eridani.eol.ee says...
I Finland, for example, trust in government is very high, despite their
best efforts to undermine it.
--
Juho Julkunen
netcat
giao...@hotmail.com says...
Are you sure it's not just Helsinki syndrome?
<grins, ducks and runs>
rgds,
netcat
Bernard Peek
<re...@panix.com> writes
>> Most people do trust the government.
>
> This depends *entirely* on the social and psychological makeup of your
>fictional people. As far as human populations go some trust their government,
>some do not, and those extremes tend to clump together.
It's also time-dependent. Trust in the UK government has steadily
declined over the last few years.
--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author.
Michael Stemper
Nope. I admire it, but don't expect it.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
If this is our corporate opinion, you will be billed for it.
lal_truckee
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:59:30 -0700, lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> This quoted line got me to thinking about telescopes. Certainly the
>> Kalgash are advanced enough to have telescopes for "terrestrial" use.
>> But if you aim a terrestrial telescope at the day sky you can see the
>> stars; so would the Kalgash. It seems to me that the Kalgash would have
>> discovered and charted the stars long before "nightfall" and would know
>> in detail what to expect.
>
> ...see the stars THROUGH the scattered illumination that renders the sky
> blue? I don't THINK so, young man.
> CLIP
Find yourself an amateur astronomer and have him show you daytime stars
and planets. In fact Venus in particular can be seen with the naked eye
if you know where to look, and is a popular demonstration target.
> You may wish to attempt the experiment.
Have.
P.S. Thanks for the "young" - I appreciate it. I'm with Asimov - I'm
just entering Advanced Youth 101.
David DeLaney
>David DeLaney wrote:
>> lal_truckee <lal_t...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> This quoted line got me to thinking about telescopes. Certainly the
>>> Kalgash are advanced enough to have telescopes for "terrestrial" use.
>>> But if you aim a terrestrial telescope at the day sky you can see the
>>> stars; so would the Kalgash. It seems to me that the Kalgash would have
>>> discovered and charted the stars long before "nightfall" and would know
>>> in detail what to expect.
>>
>> ...see the stars THROUGH the scattered illumination that renders the sky
>> blue? I don't THINK so, young man.
>
>> CLIP
>
>Find yourself an amateur astronomer and have him show you daytime stars
>and planets. In fact Venus in particular can be seen with the naked eye
>if you know where to look, and is a popular demonstration target.
Venus is brighter, in any phase, than any star in the sky other than the Sun.
Three other planets can also be brighter than any star. The faintest objects
observable during the day with the naked eye are just brighter than Venus at
its faintest, so it's not surprising there's a planet you can see during the
day. (And of course the Moon is day-visible.) Note also that I'm not counting
"just before sunrise / just after sunrise with the sky still mostly in shadow
/ just before sunset with the sky already mostly in shadow / just after sunset"
as "daytime" here. [Darkening the daytime with clouds carries its own problems
for this sort of observation.]
Sirius, the brightest star we can see other than the Sun, is about two and
a quarter magnitudes _fainter_ than Venus at its faintest.
So, forgive me if I laugh heartily at the possibility that even Sirius might
be visible during full daylight.
>> You may wish to attempt the experiment.
>
>Have.
And how strong a telescope did you require, and what time of day was this,
relative to sunset or sunrise?
Tim Bruening
lal_truckee wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > First Kalgashian astronaut: I see Stars! Yii!!!!!
>
> This quoted line got me to thinking about telescopes. Certainly the
> Kalgash are advanced enough to have telescopes for "terrestrial" use.
> But if you aim a terrestrial telescope at the day sky you can see the
> stars; so would the Kalgash. It seems to me that the Kalgash would have
> discovered and charted the stars long before "nightfall" and would know
> in detail what to expect.
Can you see anywhere are many stars through a telescope in the day as at
night?
Kalgashian astronomers may see stars through a telescope in the day, but
they would still be seeing a lit sky, so their darkophobia would not be
activated.
Tim Bruening
lal_truckee wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > First Kalgashian astronaut: I see Stars! Yii!!!!!
>
> This quoted line got me to thinking about telescopes. Certainly the
> Kalgash are advanced enough to have telescopes for "terrestrial" use.
> But if you aim a terrestrial telescope at the day sky you can see the
> stars; so would the Kalgash. It seems to me that the Kalgash would have
> discovered and charted the stars long before "nightfall" and would know
> in detail what to expect.
>
> I categorize _Nightfall_ with _Cold Equations_ - cool idea but doesn't
> hold up under serious consideration.
Why doesn't Cood Equations hold up?
Dr J R Stockton
15:44:36, Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> posted:
>
>Mistrust of the government is supposed to be an American value. I
>don't really expect it from others (except maybe our cousins to the
>north), but I do expect it from *us*.
Mistrust of the US Government is pretty well world-wide, AFAICS.
--
(c) John Stockton, nr London UK. replyYYWW merlyn demon co uk Turnpike 6.05.
Web <URL:http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/tsfaq.html> -> Timo Salmi: Usenet Q&A.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/news-use.htm> : about usage of News.
No Encoding. Quotes precede replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Mail no News.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
` Short version, because no one would design these things with THAT
narrow a margin, and yet not have any procedures in place to check all
possible areas before leaving. Also because no business OR government
would make it that easy to stow away on something which would be being
used for potentially vital missions; the tactical -- not to mention the
lawsuit) consequences are just too great for anyone to risk.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://seawasp.livejournal.com
SolomonW
> In rec.arts.sf.science SolomonW <Solo...@noemailaddress.com> wrote:
> > In article <gab707$inv$1...@news.xmission.com>, j...@xmission.com says...
> > > > I got the impression that the Apostles were quite wealthy, so could pay to
> > > > set up outdoor lights, and pay for a major advertising campaign urging
> > > > everyone to stay indoors with their "God lights" on.
> > >
> > > But the more you urge people to stay inside, the more of them are going
> > > to have to take a look to see what it's all about.
>
> > Very few actually in percentage terms.
>
> > In one city that had a solar eclipse. The local government conducted a
> > campaign that everyone should stay inside and watch it on TV because
> > they could damage their eyes if they stared at the sun. There was no
> > way, I was going to do that so when the eclipse was on, I went outside
> > to experience it. The streets were almost empty.
>
> > Most people do trust the government.
>
> This depends *entirely* on the social and psychological makeup of your
> fictional people.
Hardly fictional. Governments do not like stupid people damaging their
eys so they tell them to stay indoors and watch it on TV.
http://www.astropix.com/HTML/L_STORY/BAJA91.HTM
During the eclipse of 1991, the Mexican government advised people to
watch the eclipse on television because it was afraid they would damage
their eyes by looking directly at the sun without proper protection.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=
9D0CE7D61F39F932A25754C0A967958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
Some are frightened by superstitions about special rays from the sun or
moon, but most people here seem to be understandably over-reacting to
the barrage of official warnings.
"We keep hearing about the danger of going blind, so everyone is going
to stay inside and watch television," said Jesus Sesena Araisa, a 73-
year-old dairy farmer in the village of San Jose Viejo just north of
this coastal town.
I saw the same pattern in Australia.
> As far as human populations go some trust their government,
> some do not, and those extremes tend to clump together.
Except the first is much begger then the second. That is why goverments
survive.
>
> In Earth terms, I'd expect most Chinese would stay inside, while a
> large portion of Americans would go outside and go insane. (Whether
> anyone could tell that the Americans were insane is a different issue. ;) )
I think you are confusing complusion with belief. It requires a lot more
guts for a Chinese citizen to do something against his goverment then an
American one.
Michael Ash
It also depends a great deal on exactly what the government says. For
example, based on what I've seen of the two countries, if the government
says something like "all bloggers must register with your local police
station", I'd expect much greater compliance from the Chinese. But if they
say something like "cars should drive in between the lines on the road
unless turning or changing lanes", I'd expect vastly greater compliance
from the Americans.
--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon
Tim Bruening
Are you absolutely certain that such sloppiness is absolutely impossible?
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
In real life, no, people can be infinitely stupid in real life, but as
is often said, real life is stranger than fiction, because fiction has
to make sense.
SolomonW
You are correct. On my recent trip to Japan, that is exactly what I saw.
John Schilling
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>Tim Bruening wrote:
>> lal_truckee wrote:
>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>> First Kalgashian astronaut: I see Stars! Yii!!!!!
>>> This quoted line got me to thinking about telescopes. Certainly the
>>> Kalgash are advanced enough to have telescopes for "terrestrial" use.
>>> But if you aim a terrestrial telescope at the day sky you can see the
>>> stars; so would the Kalgash. It seems to me that the Kalgash would have
>>> discovered and charted the stars long before "nightfall" and would know
>>> in detail what to expect.
>>> I categorize _Nightfall_ with _Cold Equations_ - cool idea but doesn't
>>> hold up under serious consideration.
>> Why doesn't Cood Equations hold up?
> Short version, because no one would design these things with THAT
>narrow a margin, and yet not have any procedures in place to check all
>possible areas before leaving.
Except that, as has been noted EVERY SINGLE TIME THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED,
yes, people actually *do* do that. In real life, including aviation and
space travel.
>Also because no business OR government would make it that easy to stow
>away on something which would be being used for potentially vital missions;
>the tactical -- not to mention the lawsuit) consequences are just too great
>for anyone to risk.
Again, wrong. You are perhaps thinking of cases involving businesses or
governments dealing with the general public. Businesses and governments
dealing only with their own people, generally assume that those people
will not act maliciously - it's the tactical consequences of trying to
guard against every possible act of malice or even mischief, that are
too great. Most of the things that could get a crewman killed on board
a U.S. Navy warship are protected only by a door and a sign, not a lock
and a guard.
Occasionally some dumbass sailor gets himself killed. Life goes on for
everyone else, and nobody gets sued. For that matter, members of the
general public occasionally get themselves killed trying to stow away
on airplanes - the airlines don't do anything to stop this, and AFIK
they've never been successfully sued over it.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*John.S...@alumni.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-718-0955 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Tim Bruening
People might get that careless if their budget is very tight (Not enough dough
for an adequate fuel margin, or for guards to search for stowaways before take
off, or for adequate barriers against stowaways. Also, that lady might have
offered any guards a bribe to sneak her on board).
Tim Bruening
John Schilling wrote:
Given the terrorist threat, I find it alarming that the airlines can't stop
people from stowing away on airplanes! I can imagine someone stowing away with
a BOMB!
Lawrence Watt-Evans
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>John Schilling wrote:
>
>> Occasionally some dumbass sailor gets himself killed. Life goes on for
>> everyone else, and nobody gets sued. For that matter, members of the
>> general public occasionally get themselves killed trying to stow away
>> on airplanes - the airlines don't do anything to stop this, and AFIK
>> they've never been successfully sued over it.
>
>Given the terrorist threat, I find it alarming that the airlines can't stop
>people from stowing away on airplanes! I can imagine someone stowing away with
>a BOMB!
The standard method of stowing away on an airliner is to hide in the
wheelwell.
People who try this invariably die -- they either freeze or suffocate,
depending on the plane's cruising altitude -- and their corpses fall
out when the landing gear are lowered. Assuming they got that far;
often they don't last until the landing gear are retracted in the
first place.
It happens maybe a couple of times a year, usually Africans trying to
get to Europe or America.
If someone really wants to blow up an airliner and is willing to die
in the process, yeah, it's possible to do it that way, but generally
the people who want to blow up airliners prefer to survive, and
suicide bombers find better targets.
John F. Eldredge
A few people have hidden in aircraft wheel wells and survived, but the
odds for surviving aren't good. In addition to freezing or suffocating,
some fall out before the wheels retract and some are crushed when the
wheels retract.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
Lawrence Watt-Evans
wrote:
Really? I'd never heard of anyone surviving.
> In addition to freezing or suffocating,
>some fall out before the wheels retract and some are crushed when the
>wheels retract.
--
Richard Todd
> On 15 Sep 2008 01:23:07 GMT, "John F. Eldredge" <jo...@jfeldredge.com>
> wrote:
>>A few people have hidden in aircraft wheel wells and survived, but the
>>odds for surviving aren't good.
>
> Really? I'd never heard of anyone surviving.
A case where that happened was presented on one ep. of the Discovery Health
channel show "Untold Stories of the E.R.", if I remember correctly.
The guy was damned close to being dead from hypothermia and oxygen
deprivation when the doctors got their hands on him, though. Not really
a recommended method of travel.
BP
wrote:
>The standard method of stowing away on an airliner is to hide in the
>wheelwell.
>
>People who try this invariably die
Well, unless they are SuperDuper SEALs in a book written by John
Ringo!
BP
(in John Ringo's world, SEALs kick Chuck Norris's ass!)
(and I mean the exaggerated Chuck of the "Facts")
William December Starr
l...@sff.net said:
> If someone really wants to blow up an airliner and is willing to
> die in the process, yeah, it's possible to do it that way, but
> generally the people who want to blow up airliners prefer to
> survive, and suicide bombers find better targets.
On the other hand, "If somebody can get into a passenger jet's wheel
well, undetected, for the purpose of stowing away, then it follows
that a bad guy could get into the same place, equally undetected,
for the purpose of planting a bomb there and then walking away"
doesn't seem to contain any logical flaws.
-- wds
Kurt Busiek
The only flaw I see is that there's presumably twice as hard to avoid
detection if you get in and get out than if you just get in.
But that doesn't seem to be much of a flaw; presumably, the would-be
bomber could have access to better training or disguises or such than a
desperate refugee.
kdb
James Nicoll
Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote:
>On 2008-09-14 20:21:40 -0700, wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>
>> In article <39vqc4hg4256p6d8b...@news.rcn.com>,
>> l...@sff.net said:
>>
>>> If someone really wants to blow up an airliner and is willing to
>>> die in the process, yeah, it's possible to do it that way, but
>>> generally the people who want to blow up airliners prefer to
>>> survive, and suicide bombers find better targets.
>>
>> On the other hand, "If somebody can get into a passenger jet's wheel
>> well, undetected, for the purpose of stowing away, then it follows
>> that a bad guy could get into the same place, equally undetected,
>> for the purpose of planting a bomb there and then walking away"
>> doesn't seem to contain any logical flaws.
>
>The only flaw I see is that there's presumably twice as hard to avoid
>detection if you get in and get out than if you just get in.
No, it is exactly as hard as successfully stowing away
because unless the hitch hiker plans to live in the wheel well,
they will have to sneak away too. Both plans have the criminal
sneaking into and away from the plane. It's just that the hitch
hiker is doing it at two different airports.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
J.J. O'Shea
(in article <gakljq$rdb$1...@reader1.panix.com>):
> In article <2008091420244343658-kurt@busiekcomics>,
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote:
>> On 2008-09-14 20:21:40 -0700, wds...@panix.com (William December Starr)
>> said:
>>
>>> In article <39vqc4hg4256p6d8b...@news.rcn.com>,
>>> l...@sff.net said:
>>>
>>>> If someone really wants to blow up an airliner and is willing to
>>>> die in the process, yeah, it's possible to do it that way, but
>>>> generally the people who want to blow up airliners prefer to
>>>> survive, and suicide bombers find better targets.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, "If somebody can get into a passenger jet's wheel
>>> well, undetected, for the purpose of stowing away, then it follows
>>> that a bad guy could get into the same place, equally undetected,
>>> for the purpose of planting a bomb there and then walking away"
>>> doesn't seem to contain any logical flaws.
>>
>> The only flaw I see is that there's presumably twice as hard to avoid
>> detection if you get in and get out than if you just get in.
>
> No, it is exactly as hard as successfully stowing away
> because unless the hitch hiker plans to live in the wheel well,
> they will have to sneak away too. Both plans have the criminal
> sneaking into and away from the plane. It's just that the hitch
> hiker is doing it at two different airports.
>
The bomber is sneaking in and out of the same airport, and can be expected to
have some idea about local security. The hitch hiker may know about security
at the local airport, but will be clueless about what goes on at the other
end. I rather suspect that security at Miami or JFK or Heathrow would be
tougher than security at Norman Manley or Grantly Adams or Piarco. (Kingston,
Jamaica, and Barbados, and Trinidad, respectively) The bomber has the easier
job, unless the hitch-hiker picks a flight going to an airport with lesser
competence. (Gatwick or Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood, say.) (Unless they've
improved since I was there last, security at Gatwick couldn't find their own
arses with a map, a mirror, and a 30 second head start.)
--
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.
Kurt Busiek
> In article <2008091420244343658-kurt@busiekcomics>,
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote:
>> On 2008-09-14 20:21:40 -0700, wds...@panix.com (William December Starr) said:
>>
>>> In article <39vqc4hg4256p6d8b...@news.rcn.com>,
>>> l...@sff.net said:
>>>
>>>> If someone really wants to blow up an airliner and is willing to
>>>> die in the process, yeah, it's possible to do it that way, but
>>>> generally the people who want to blow up airliners prefer to
>>>> survive, and suicide bombers find better targets.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, "If somebody can get into a passenger jet's wheel
>>> well, undetected, for the purpose of stowing away, then it follows
>>> that a bad guy could get into the same place, equally undetected,
>>> for the purpose of planting a bomb there and then walking away"
>>> doesn't seem to contain any logical flaws.
>>
>> The only flaw I see is that there's presumably twice as hard to avoid
>> detection if you get in and get out than if you just get in.
>
> No, it is exactly as hard as successfully stowing away
> because unless the hitch hiker plans to live in the wheel well,
> they will have to sneak away too. Both plans have the criminal
> sneaking into and away from the plane. It's just that the hitch
> hiker is doing it at two different airports.
...which presumably involves less time under observation at both
airports, and by two different sets of security.
And the desperate hitchhiker may not care ifhe's caught after leaving
the plane, because he got where he was going and may nowget the medical
attention/sanctuary/whatever that he needs (or even just think he'll
get it), which the bomber needs to remain undetected on both legs of
the journey.
kdb
Wolfspawn
Well, just the time necessary for one operation vs. another increases the
likelihood of detection. A stowaway merely needs to approach the plane,
and hide himself. The bomb planter has to approach the plane, secure the
bomb, and leave the scene. If we assume a simple slap-on sticky bomb of
some kind, then it's still double the risk of detection.
Wolfspawn
> On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:59:47 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net>
> wrote:
>
> >The standard method of stowing away on an airliner is to hide in the
> >wheelwell.
> >
> >People who try this invariably die
>
> Well, unless they are SuperDuper SEALs in a book written by John
> Ringo!
>
> BP
It would seem to require clothing capable of withstanding -40 cold, and
several oxygen tanks. Such a person waddling across the tarmac would tend
to draw more attention than usual.
Michael Stemper
I believe that somebody here also pointed out that, by the time the
pilot of the EDS jettisoned the desk, his blaster, their clothing,
the door and hinge pins from the stoway^W storage closet, whatever
was in there, the radio, and all of the other movable items mentioned
in the story, it would be likely to mass more than a slighty-built
teen-aged girl. Certainly close enough to be within one or two
amputations of making up the difference.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Reunite Gondwanaland!
John
"James Nicoll" <jdni...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:gakljq$rdb$1...@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <2008091420244343658-kurt@busiekcomics>,
> Kurt Busiek <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote:
>>On 2008-09-14 20:21:40 -0700, wds...@panix.com (William December Starr)
>>said:
>>
>>> In article <39vqc4hg4256p6d8b...@news.rcn.com>,
>>> l...@sff.net said:
>>>
>>>> If someone really wants to blow up an airliner and is willing to
>>>> die in the process, yeah, it's possible to do it that way, but
>>>> generally the people who want to blow up airliners prefer to
>>>> survive, and suicide bombers find better targets.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, "If somebody can get into a passenger jet's wheel
>>> well, undetected, for the purpose of stowing away, then it follows
>>> that a bad guy could get into the same place, equally undetected,
>>> for the purpose of planting a bomb there and then walking away"
>>> doesn't seem to contain any logical flaws.
>>
>>The only flaw I see is that there's presumably twice as hard to avoid
>>detection if you get in and get out than if you just get in.
>
> No, it is exactly as hard as successfully stowing away
> because unless the hitch hiker plans to live in the wheel well,
> they will have to sneak away too. Both plans have the criminal
> sneaking into and away from the plane. It's just that the hitch
> hiker is doing it at two different airports.
> --
Not necessarily. They may be fleeing a country where they are persecuted,
into a country that they can ask for political asylum. They may be expecting
they can throw themselves at the mercy of the more lenient police at the
other end.
John
"Michael Stemper" <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> wrote in message
news:gam7it$1i3$5...@aioe.org...
less than a week or so.
David M. Palmer
<jo...@junk.com> wrote:
And the grand piano.
Oh, wait, they don't have a grand piano. They don't have huge amounts
of food and water for a three hour tour. The blaster, clothing, radio,
door (if removable) etc. do not add up to the mass of a girl.
You could write a story where the emergency ship had a few tonnes of
easily removable mass. But that's not the story Godwin wrote.
--
David M. Palmer dmpa...@email.com (formerly @clark.net, @ematic.com)
John
"David M. Palmer" <dmpa...@email.com> wrote in message
news:150920082108405993%dmpa...@email.com...
closet with enough spare room to hide a body in it, in the first place. What
did she take out so she could hide, a mop and bucket?
William December Starr
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) said:
> No, it is exactly as hard as successfully stowing away because
> unless the hitch hiker plans to live in the wheel well, they will
> have to sneak away too. Both plans have the criminal sneaking
> into and away from the plane. It's just that the hitch hiker is
> doing it at two different airports.
If all security is assumed to be equally good (or bad), I think that
the bomber _could_ have the harder job because he has to get past
the same people twice. Which isn't a factor if he's in/exfiltrating
by pure stealth, but could be if he needs to walk past some security
people in clear sight on part of his path -- all else being equal,
the fact that the same guard will see him going in both directions
gives a better chance of fouling him up than two guards (one at each
airport) each seeing him only once. I think. Does this make sense?
-- wds
William December Starr
mste...@siemens-emis.com said:
> I believe that somebody here also pointed out that, by the time
> the pilot of the EDS jettisoned the desk, his blaster, their
> clothing, the door and hinge pins from the stoway^W storage
> closet, whatever was in there, the radio, and all of the other
> movable items mentioned in the story, it would be likely to mass
> more than a slighty-built teen-aged girl. Certainly close enough
> to be within one or two amputations of making up the difference.
Was it clear that the desk wasn't permanently attached to the deck
so that it wouldn't slide around under lateral acceleration or
float annoyingly in zero-gee? And the assumption that the door
could be de-hinged by whatever tools were on hand (would there be
any?) seems a weak one.
-- wds
William December Starr
"John" <jo...@junk.com> said:
> Mind you, if the constraints are so tight, they wouldn't have a
> storage closet with enough spare room to hide a body in it, in the
> first place. What did she take out so she could hide, a mop and
> bucket?
Hypothesis I: It's possible that a mission on which this class of
ship would be sent would require an EVA, ergo space is needed in
which to potentially store a spacesuit. When the mission doesn't
require a spacesuit, that volume is left empty.
Hypothesis II: It's possible that a mission on which this class of
ship would be sent would require the transport of bulky supplies,
since not every plague can necessarily be stopped by medicine
diluted down from a one-pint bottle of serum. Again, some storage
space is built into the ship design for this possibility, and that
space is left empty on most flights.
-- wds
Michael Stemper
>In rec.arts.sf.science message <gadro4$3pe$1...@aioe.org>, Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:44:36, Michael Stemper <mste...@walkabout.empros.com> posted:
>>Mistrust of the government is supposed to be an American value. I
>>don't really expect it from others (except maybe our cousins to the
>>north), but I do expect it from *us*.
>
>Mistrust of the US Government is pretty well world-wide, AFAICS.
Good point, if not *quite* what I meant.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding;
Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind.
John Schilling
wrote:
I don't think that's even a hypothesis. The craft is a generic
Emergency Dispatch Shuttle, a lightweight prefabricated craft of
which each Star Cruiser carries four to handle whatever emergency
missions may arise, and which is then fuelled and supplied with
the bare minimum for the emergency which actually did arise.
So, yes, supply cabinets and the like. And since this mission
did require one guy to fly for a few hours to deliver a pint of
serum, supply cabinets that were never filled with anything to
begin with.
Also, yes, doors and partitions, for the same reason there are
(interior) doors and partitions in real aircraft, spacecraft,
lifeboats, and so forth - the danger posed by loose objects
being thrown about, is worth a pound or two of plastic sheet
to guard against, and is greater than the danger of maliciously
hidden objects.
The exact same story could be written, with no doubt as to its
plausibility, about a 20th-century bush pilot trying to fly a
bit of medicine to a remote village in Alaska and an adventurous
but foolish girl hiding in the tailcone. It wouldn't be SF, of
course. It also wouldn't be nearly as long or as interesting,
because the plane would crash only seconds after takeoff.
Or we could do the one where she climbs into the airliner wheel
well. That could be drawn out long enough to be interesting,
but nobody on the airliner would notice or even much care. But
it would be even more plausible, on account of it actually
happens.
The SFnal scenario is more interesting, because it places the
craft and the mission as well as the stowaway in danger, *and*
it has a timeline that allows for drama and tragedy. I can't
think offhand of a realistic equivalent.
But, real world or SF, it's more than plausible that a stupid
mischievous teenager would be able to get themselves killed and
endanger an emergency mission with that general sort of stunt.
There's too many ways for stupid people to kill themselves, and
each other, and even smart people who get too close, to guard
or even warn against them all.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*John.Sc...@alumni.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Tim Bruening
William December Starr wrote:
Wouldn't a space ship need tools in case of emergencies?
De-hinge: Demon that takes down doors.
John Schilling
wrote:
>In article <39vqc4hg4256p6d8b...@news.rcn.com>,
>l...@sff.net said:
Yes, but people actually planting bombs on airliners is such a
very small danger that no great effort to protect against it is
really warranted. The number of people both willing and able to
plant a bomb on an airliner is vanishingly small, those few[1]
are pretty much unstoppable, and the overall risk is down at the
"death by lightning strike" level. Put up lightning rods where
appropriate, and then ignore the whole business even though
hundreds of people are still getting killed.
The danger that is being guarded against, is that of people
causing other people to be afraid that a bomb has been planted
on their airplane even though there hasn't. That's a much bigger
problem - "scared" isn't as bad as "dead", sure, but "scared"
multiplied by billions beats "dead" multiplied by thousands.
Security measures ostensibly aimed at preventing bombs from
being planted on airliners are not entirely ineffective at
diminishing the irrationally exaggerated fear that a bomb has
been planted on one's airliner. But they have to be *visible*
security measures. Guards and motion sensors down around the
landing gear, where the passengers will never see them, are
no help at all.
Well, if someone ever *actually does* plant a bomb in the
wheel well of an airliner, there will probably be several
months of reporters poking cameras around that area and
asking "where are the guards?", so at that point it might
be worth investing in a few guards. But that hasn't happened
yet.
And, back on topic, if there was a history of people hiding
bombs on board EDS shuttles, there would probably be armed
guards stationed around the things from assembly to launch.
So long as the actual threat remains limited to an occasional
stowaway who only gets himself killed[2], it's not so urgent
an issue and resources are explicitly tight.
[1] Actually, the number of *people* with both the ability and
the inclination to blow up an airliner, is roughly zero. The
number of *groups* whose membership collectively includes those
features and does not also include a police informant, is very
very small.
[2] And is the sort of person about whom one says, "he needed
killing anyhow"
Thomas Lindgren
John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu> writes:
> Well, if someone ever *actually does* plant a bomb in the
> wheel well of an airliner, there will probably be several
> months of reporters poking cameras around that area and
> asking "where are the guards?", so at that point it might
> be worth investing in a few guards. But that hasn't happened
> yet.
I'm coming to the conclusion that all the rigamarole about taking your
shoes off, keeping liquids in little bags, and so on, is not about
security. It's about _liability_.
Best,
Thomas
--
Thomas Lindgren
monetarism + human capital + property rights + public choice
Wayne Throop
: I'm coming to the conclusion that all the rigamarole about taking your
: shoes off, keeping liquids in little bags, and so on, is not about
: security. It's about _liability_.
I agree whatever it's about, it doesn't seem to be about security.
It's amusing to speculate about how to improvise weapons out of what
they will allow you to carry onboard, or don't bother checking. AFAIK,
they don't even confiscate pencils or fountain pens. You could even
probably stiffen and sharpen a credit card (or something indistinguishable
from a credit card) into something at least as lethal as a box cutter.
But my pocket multitool is Right Out. Yeesh. I suppose I should shut
up and be glad they let me carry my pocket flashlight and car keys.
Though if you sharpened the edge of a car key, and modified the barrel
of a pocket aaa or aa sized flashlight to act as a keyholder to give a
bit better handle.... but I digress.
And that's before you get to hiding a kevlar garotte in your belt (thin
enough to cut instead of choke), or creative uses of ceramics, or all
the myriad of other things that shivs can be made from or disguised as,
given prep time.
I do not, however, recommend speculating aloud on the subject in
the security line at the airport.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Tim Bruening
Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <474525EA...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, on Wed, 21 Nov 2007
> 22:47:06 -0800, Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> says...
>
> > Nits:
>
> > Why don't the Apostles (and their industrialist supporters) and the
> > scientists simply tell everyone to stay indoors with plenty of battery
> > powered lights, and lobby governments to install outdoor lights in all
> > the cities? The lights would keep everyone sane.
>
> Simply? I can imagine some good reasons for lack of city lights on a
> planet with no night. Or why people might not take the warning "stay
> indoors or go insane" seriously.
If there's only one dim sun in the sky (Dovim in the expanded version, Beta
in the original), outdoor lights might be necessary, especially if
everyone's afraid of the dark!
What if its cloudy on a Dovim only day?
In areas where it was cloudy during the eclipse, thus blocking out the
stars, would the people remain saner and thus do less damage to their
infrastructure?
Silverberg: Not as rich as Goldberg.
John Schilling
wrote:
>John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu> writes:
>> Well, if someone ever *actually does* plant a bomb in the
>> wheel well of an airliner, there will probably be several
>> months of reporters poking cameras around that area and
>> asking "where are the guards?", so at that point it might
>> be worth investing in a few guards. But that hasn't happened
>> yet.
>I'm coming to the conclusion that all the rigamarole about taking your
>shoes off, keeping liquids in little bags, and so on, is not about
>security. It's about _liability_.
Hard to imagine how; most of the security rigamarole is implemented
or at least mandated by governments, which have sovereign immunity
in such matters. Nobody can sue the government for failing to
adequately protect them; that's been pretty solidly established.
Thomas Lindgren
John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu> writes:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:17:26 GMT, Thomas Lindgren <***********@*****.***>
> wrote:
>
>>John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu> writes:
>
>>> Well, if someone ever *actually does* plant a bomb in the
>>> wheel well of an airliner, there will probably be several
>>> months of reporters poking cameras around that area and
>>> asking "where are the guards?", so at that point it might
>>> be worth investing in a few guards. But that hasn't happened
>>> yet.
>
>>I'm coming to the conclusion that all the rigamarole about taking your
>>shoes off, keeping liquids in little bags, and so on, is not about
>>security. It's about _liability_.
>
> Hard to imagine how; most of the security rigamarole is implemented
> or at least mandated by governments, which have sovereign immunity
> in such matters. Nobody can sue the government for failing to
> adequately protect them; that's been pretty solidly established.
It seems obvious that nobody involved wants to be caught out having
disregarded a previous method, even if ridiculous, for killing airline
passengers and/or people in the way of deliberately crashing
airplanes. Yet they all also seem content with just going through the
motions of preventing previous attempts.
I assume this provides reasonable protection against legal liability
-- presumably all involved with money but no sovereignty, or at least
none that is protected in US courts, will in the event of an attack be
at least considered for a lawsuit -- as well as against public or
bureaucratic backlash on failure. But does the rigamarole reasonably
improve travel security? At a guess, no.
Thomas Lindgren
thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop) writes:
I say we put all engineers on the no-fly list. It's the only way to be
sure.
Actually, experience has shown that the most effective acts of
terrorism (or at least eye-roll-ism) involves making travel
with common items as inconvenient and irritating as possible.
John Schilling
wrote:
>John Schilling <schi...@spock.usc.edu> writes:
>>>> Well, if someone ever *actually does* plant a bomb in the
>>>> wheel well of an airliner, there will probably be several
>>>> months of reporters poking cameras around that area and
>>>> asking "where are the guards?", so at that point it might
>>>> be worth investing in a few guards. But that hasn't happened
>>>> yet.
>>>I'm coming to the conclusion that all the rigamarole about taking your
>>>shoes off, keeping liquids in little bags, and so on, is not about
>>>security. It's about _liability_.
>> Hard to imagine how; most of the security rigamarole is implemented
>> or at least mandated by governments, which have sovereign immunity
>> in such matters. Nobody can sue the government for failing to
>> adequately protect them; that's been pretty solidly established.
>It seems obvious that nobody involved wants to be caught out having
>disregarded a previous method, even if ridiculous, for killing airline
>passengers and/or people in the way of deliberately crashing
>airplanes. Yet they all also seem content with just going through the
>motions of preventing previous attempts.
Right. The objective, or at least the immediate means to the objective,
is to Be Seen To Be Doing Something about each of the specific methods
of destroying airplanes that people are worried about on account of
lurid newspaper headlines.
>I assume this provides reasonable protection against legal liability
>-- presumably all involved with money but no sovereignty, or at least
>none that is protected in US courts, will in the event of an attack be
>at least considered for a lawsuit
Possible but irrelevant. The people "with money but no soverignty",
are not the ones doing the security stuff. They might in fact gain
some protection against lawsuits by pointing at the TSA and saying,
"If the Mad Bombers(tm) could get past the TSA and its Elite Cavity
Probers(tm), nobody could expect little old us to stop them!" But
that's a motive that doesn't apply to the people who actually *are*
doing the work.
Unless you're thinking the TSA is implementing ever-more-rigorous
security measures out of the goodness of their own hearts, as a favor
to the airline industry's lawyers.
>-- as well as against public or bureaucratic backlash on failure.
Now *that* is a motive that might actually apply to the TSA.
>But does the rigamarole reasonably improve travel security? At a
>guess, no.
Right you are. It also doesn't reduce weather- or maintenance-related
air travel delays, doesn't do a thing about the price of oil, and for
that matter it doesn't cure the common cold or solve the fiscal problems
of the American banking industry.
Improving travel security is only one of billions of things worth doing
in this world. And judging an activity by its failure to do one of the
many good things that are not actually its goal, is silly. You judge an
activity by its success at doing the few (and hopefully good) things that
actually are its goals.
Wayne Throop
: The objective, or at least the immediate means to the objective, is to
: Be Seen To Be Doing Something about each of the specific methods of
: destroying airplanes that people are worried about on account of lurid
: newspaper headlines.
: Improving travel security is only one of billions of things worth
: doing in this world. And judging an activity by its failure to do one
: of the many good things that are not actually its goal, is silly. You
: judge an activity by its success at doing the few (and hopefully good)
: things that actually are its goals.
I'm not yet cynical enough to think "providing a false sense of security"
is all that laudable a goal. I'm only cynical enough to think it's
the way of the world that it gets done instead of one of the other
billions of things worth (and likely *more* worth) doing.
By some naive standard of worthiness.
Tim Bruening
Jonathan Schattke wrote:
> On Nov 22 2007, 1:47 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
> wrote:
> > This story concerns the planet Kalgash, which is lit by six suns
>
> > Nits: When Kalgash Two eclipses Dovim, the other five suns are on the
> > other side of Kalgash from Kalgash Two. Shouldn't light from those suns
> > light up Kalgash Two, and enough of it reflect off to relieve the
> > Darkness?
>
> Kalgash two is explained as being very dimly reflective.
> However, it reasonably should occlude Dovim occasionally with other
> suns in the sky, and transits should be fairly common. It should have
> been identified and understood before the story starts.
But Kalgash Two is very big, almost as large as Kalgash! If its very dark,
would that make it visible against the bright Kalgashian day sky?
The astronomers determined (using the Universal Law of Gravitation) that
Kalgash Two's orbit was such that it only eclipsed Dovim on Dovim only days!
> Another source of darkness, not touched, on, would be the conjuction
> of all 6 suns on the opposite side from the planet; I don't know why
> they introduced the completely unneeded moon.
The Kalgashian system is arranged in such a way that such a conjunction never
happens.
Timberwoof
Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
And all of it is limited by the chaotic nature of non-heirarchical star
systems. We do see multiple-star systems, but they all have the property
that close pairs of stars orbit in larger pairs-of-pairs. A system as
described in "Nightfall" or in the first Riddick movie would not last
long as the gravitational interactions would make things fly apart.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
People who can't spell get kicked out of Hogwarts.
John Schilling
What "false sense of security"?
I ask you the same question I recently asked Sea Wasp - do you, who are
wise and enlightened and recognize the folly of the TSA's intrusive
security procedures, actually feel substantially afraid of being killed
by terrorists when you fly on a commercial airliner?
Nobody is providing a false sense of security, because the sense of
security is not false. Commercial travel *is* secure, and has been
pretty consistently for fifty years or so. The only thing that was
false, was the sense of *in*security that followed 9/11.
Possibly you are objecting to the *means* by which a true and accurate
sense of security is being provided. I suspect you also think that the
proper way to deal with e.g. conspiracy theorists and young-Earth
creationists is to carefully explain the factual counterevidence and
logical inconsistencies of their position, and are persistently baffled
and frustrated by your lack of success.
ObSF: Don't recall the title or author, but there was an "Analog" short
some years back, about the difficulty of convincing the natives of some
preindustrial culture to accept vitally-needed lighning rods on their
homes. Until the protagonist supplied rods with baroque technogimmicky
adornments, completely non-functional but creating the appearance of
High Technology(tm).
Mike Schilling
> ObSF: Don't recall the title or author, but there was an "Analog"
> short some years back, about the difficulty of convincing the
> natives
> of some preindustrial culture to accept vitally-needed lighning rods
> on their homes. Until the protagonist supplied rods with baroque
> technogimmicky adornments, completely non-functional but creating
> the
> appearance of High Technology(tm).
In the Sheckley version of that story [1], the natives reject all the
cool new trade goods, and the explorers can't figure out why. By a
clever ruse, they discover that the problem is the native's belief
that their god Tharg won't approve of these gadgets. They up a radio
to pretend to be taking to Tharg, and after they get his blessing, the
natives happily start trading their ore for all sorts of high-tech
toys. Their problem solved, the explorers lay back and congratulate
themselves on a job well done.
Until Tharg shows up...
1. No, not really.
David Johnston
<schi...@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
>I ask you the same question I recently asked Sea Wasp - do you, who are
>wise and enlightened and recognize the folly of the TSA's intrusive
>security procedures, actually feel substantially afraid of being killed
>by terrorists when you fly on a commercial airliner?
I'm afraid of the security procedures.
Bill Snyder
wrote:
I loathe them, but what I'm *afraid* of is the mindset that finds
them acceptable. "They who can give up essential liberty to
obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor
safety."
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Joe Pfeiffer
Your comment about the mindset is my thought exactly. The Franklin
quote might (for this discussion) be better said as "a little
temporary feeling of safety".
At Heathrow yesterday, a security dweeb actually enforced the stated
maximum liquid container size of 100mL against a 130 gram (yes, it's
expressed in weight) toothpaste container.
When somebody tries to use a shoelace as a garrotte on an airplane,
will we all be forced to give up our shoelaces, USB cables, and
headphones? I'm afraid I know the answer (in the US, we're still
putting our shoes through x-ray machines).
John
"Joe Pfeiffer" <pfei...@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote in message
news:1babdyc...@snowball.wb.pfeifferfamily.net...
> Bill Snyder <bsn...@airmail.net> writes:
>
snip
>
> At Heathrow yesterday, a security dweeb actually enforced the stated
> maximum liquid container size of 100mL against a 130 gram (yes, it's
> expressed in weight) toothpaste container.
>
> When somebody tries to use a shoelace as a garrotte on an airplane,
> will we all be forced to give up our shoelaces, USB cables, and
> headphones? I'm afraid I know the answer (in the US, we're still
> putting our shoes through x-ray machines).
Thereby increasing the risk of some sort of giant mutant foot-eating shoe
causing havok.
Tim Bruening
Timberwoof wrote:
I do remember at least one and perhaps two close pairs of stars in the
Kalgashian system.
John F. Eldredge
Given the current trends, I would expect the eventual requirements be
that everyone strip down to a hospital gown for the duration of the
flight, and get their clothes and possessions back after they leave the
plane. The next step after that would involve all of the passengers
being strapped into straitjackets for the duration of the flight.
--
John F. Eldredge -- jo...@jfeldredge.com
PGP key available from http://pgp.mit.edu
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria