Just For Fun: My Top Ten Heroes

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who
isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this was…
difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate
gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who certainly rank high in
my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I
don't appreciate them as a great hero and example; there are many such
who simply don't quite reach this top ten… or who might reach it on a
different day.

#10: Spider-Man
Peter Parker, geeky high school student, bitten by a radioactive spider
and suddenly given tremendous powers by this random accident, makes a
selfish choice… that costs him one of the two people dearest to him. He
swears never to make that mistake again, dedicating himself to the
principle that "with great power comes great responsibility".

There are, of course, bobbles in this resolution – mainly, in my view,
caused by the nature of the comic-book medium, with multiple authors,
company visions, and so on competing in the writing process. I judge my
comic-book heroes based on what I see as their BEST storylines and
writing, not the fumbles.

And at his best, Spider-Man is the essence of the Hero. He carries on a
one-man war against evil while sometimes barely eking out an existence
in a one-room flat; he invents gadgets which could make him a fortune
but keeps them as his trump cards in the battle against supervillains
who often threaten his city; he goes to seek out these adversaries and
confront them when injured, when so ill he can barely walk, and always,
always driven by the ghost of his one mistake. Peter Parker is perhaps
the strongest-willed person in the Marvelverse, and certainly one of the
most deserving of the term "Determinator". He has beaten foes that
seemed utterly beyond him because he simply would not give up, because
he would accept no other outcome but victory.

He is one of the greatest comic-book heroes ever, and that lands him
here, at number ten.

#9: Lord Valentine
From Robert Silverberg's Lord Valentine's Castle and its first two
sequels, Valentine is one of the rarest of protagonists: a practical
pacifist who truly does seek the peaceful way out of a problem, but who
is willing to take the other path when no other way exists.

Valentine is one of the truly good people in fiction, with scarcely a
drop of pettiness or evil within him. The evil done to him – depriving
him of everything he ever knew, including his original body – was
something so hideous that almost any other character would have sworn
bloody vengeance on the perpetrator. Valentine, instead, tried to
understand his adversary, to come to some accord with him – and in the
end this leads him to a greater victory than any amount of violence.

Valentine also has the trait, common in many heroes, of gathering people
to him who choose to follow him even into grave peril. In his case it is
believable; we see the way Valentine acts, gravely courteous,
considerate, innocent in a way, yet wise, that draws people to him. He
is the perfect example of what a ruler should be… up to, and including,
the desire not to be a ruler.

His heroic innocence and gentle determination bring him onto this list
at number nine.

#8: Paksenarrion
The sheepfarmer's daughter who ran away to adventure and found far more
than she could have imagined, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion is one of
the ultimate and defining versions of the D&D "Paladin" character type –
the holy warrior for a god. In part this is because it was
inspired(according to a conversation I had with her) by her overhearing
someone playing a Paladin badly, and thinking to herself "that's not how
such a character would act!". From that thought, Paks was born.

Paksenarrion is the quintessential knight in shining armor: humble in
her heart, devoted to her friends and to her ideals, courageous, and
tough beyond ordinary belief. She begins as a simple military recruit,
and through a sequence of strange events discovers that – through no
intention of her own – she has been chosen as a Paladin, a hero of the
god Gird. But it is not the choice that makes her a hero; it is clearly
the fact that she is already a hero that has caused Gird to choose her.

Paks survives one of the most horrific sequences of brainwashing and
torment I've ever read, and somehow retains her self more than would
seem possible. Having been chosen, she puts her faith into her god and
from her god the faith is returned to herself. I invented Kyri Vantage
long before I ever heard of Paks… but the two are not all that
different. For her heroism and her honest, innocent determination, Paks
comes in here, at number eight.


#7: Corwin of Amber
He wouldn't even like to describe himself as a hero, this Prince of
Amber. Once he was like his other siblings: scheming, treacherous,
self-involved, arrogant, certain of his place in the universe – and that
place was, eventually, the throne of Amber, the One True City of which
all other places are but Shadows.

But then he was stranded in a distant Shadow, injured, ill, and lost
his memory. For five centuries he wandered Earth, a lone immortal in the
midst of humans, living as one, not knowing why he was not one of them.

This changed him as few things could, and when he regained his powers –
the reality-bending powers of a Prince of Amber – and went against his
brother Eric (who had left him to die in that distant Shadow), even
those working with him could sense there was something different in him.

Ultimately, Corwin is offered the prize he sought – the Throne of
Amber, rulership in effect of all Reality – and realizes he does not
want it any more. He has found value in the Shadows that his siblings
have ignored, has found more of himself reflected there than he wished
to contemplate. In the end, he rides to the end of Reality in order to
save it, and carves with his own will and blood a new Pattern on which
to stabilize Chaos.

For heroism that won't even admit to the word, Corwin gets the seventh
slot in my heroic countdown.

#6: Ellen Ripley
There may be no more iconic female hero than Ellen Ripley, the ultimate
survivor. Confronted with an alien lifeform that seems unstoppable, she
survives when all her crew is dead, escapes, and defeats the creature
with a last desperate ploy. Fifty years later, she accepts the loss of
everything in her past life (including a daughter she had left behind)
and begins to build a new life…

… until she's dragged back to the same world from which the monster
came, the only expert the Marines working for the Weyland-Yutani company
have to describe what they may face.

But they don't believe what she has to tell them, and once more when
things go south, it is Ellen Ripley – once simply a pilot for a
freighter – who takes control, who directs their actions and plans an
escape, who survives. She finds a little girl, last survivor of the
ill-fated colony on that world, and bonds with her, an echo of her own
lost child. And when the aliens seek to take the newfound child away,
they discover what a terrible mistake they have made.

For human heroism that crosses the border from mere story to legend,
Sigourney Weaver's Ellen Ripley gets my number six spot!

#5: The Doctor
The Oncoming Storm. The Destroyer of Worlds. Time's Champion. A madman
in a box. He is an exile from his own world, a renegade traveling in a
stolen machine which is one of the most powerful starships of fiction.

He is The Doctor.

The main character in the longest-running SF series of all time, Doctor
Who, the Doctor is a Timelord, a native of the planet Gallifrey, who
chose to break one of their most sacred laws: the principle of never
interfering in the lives of those not relevant to Gallifrey. The Doctor
refused to accept that the Timelords should keep their power and
knowledge to themselves and never use it to aid the other species, and
when told to cease his actions, stole a TARDIS and left… to become the
stuff of myth.

The Doctor has saved not just Earth but the universe almost countless
times. He has battled human dictators, mad scientists, pitiless
artificial intelligences, cyborg monsters, ancient beings that believe
they are gods, space armadas, and his own people. He has burned through
twelve bodies doing this, sacrificing himself again and again for the
sake of people who may never know that they were in danger… or, given
time travel, may never remember that it was even possible that they were
in danger.

But still he journeys, finding wrong and setting things as right as he
can before he once again moves on. And that keeps him here, at number five.

#4: Dorothy Gale
Once upon a time, a little girl found herself trapped in her house as a
twister bore down upon it and ripped the house from the ground. When she
awoke, she was in a bizarre magical land with no way home… unless the
mysterious "Wizard of Oz" could show her how. And so this little girl
named Dorothy (which, it so happens, was my mother's first name too) set
off down the Yellow Brick Road… and changed her world.

Dorothy's first journeys are fairly well known – if not very accurately
– from the 1939 movie starring Judy Garland. The movie leaves out
numerous other adventures, and much darker ones, such as the pursuit
through the forest by the vicious Kalidahs. It also eliminates sequences
in which the little party of adventurers solve their own problems,
rather than needing intervention by Glinda.

Through these adventures, the central figure and the driving force is
Dorothy Gale. Despite her youth, Dorothy is a determined, couragous girl
with a genuine faith in people and an absolute moral compass that
directs her actions. She gathers the Lion, the Tin Man, and the
Scarecrow together and on their journey helps them find their true
selves. She confronts the Wizard and forces him to reform. Captured by
the Wicked Witch, she endures slavery and imprisonment until fortune
frees her. Deprived of one hope, she is only briefly downhearted, then
willing to take another route.

But The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is only her first adventure in Oz; she
goes on to have many more, confronting perils from the core of the Earth
to the highest peaks of the worlds. Dorothy is an exemplar of childlike
heroism who was one of my ideals and heroes in my youngest years. For
her unswerving dedication to her friends, her willingness to believe in
even the worst evils being able to change, and her undaunted courage,
she gets the number four slot on my hero countdown!

#3: Captain America
Steve Rogers, literal ninety-eight pound weakling, patriot and would-be
soldier rejected innumerable times by the U.S. Armed Forces during WWII.
Suddenly he is given one chance to serve his country: as a human guinea
pig in an experiment to create a "super-soldier", a man who is stronger,
tougher, faster, smarter than anyone else on the battlefield.

The experiment succeeds, and the stick-thin Rogers is transformed into
a tall, muscular, idealized version of himself – with incredible
strength, speed, regenerative powers, perceptions, and even increased
intelligence and learning capability. But spies sabotage the project and
kill the only man with the key secrets to the process, leaving Steve the
only result of the super-soldier project.

But even one super-soldier can be of great use in the right
circumstances… and thus is born Captain America, the living symbol of
the United States.

While Cap is a truly formidable opponent in almost any sense, it is not
his powers that make him one of the great heroes; like others on this
list, it is his heart and moral conviction that bring him to a place on
my list. Captain America is the moral compass of his universe. He is the
yardstick by which others in that universe are measured – and usually
found very much wanting. He is also a man who does not think that he is
anything extraordinary; he possesses a bone-deep humility that is almost
certainly the major reason that he never even thinks about abusing these
powers or exploiting his position.

For being the hero that other heroes look to for guidance, Captain
America gets the number-three slot!

#2: Naruto Uzumaki
"Give up… on me giving up!"

These words are the very distillation of Naruto Uzumaki. An orphaned
boy who was isolated, even shunned, by the people of his village because
– unknown to him – the demon who once nearly destroyed the village was
sealed within him, Naruto began with only one burning desire: to make
someone, anyone, recognize him as a person.

Given a chance, this loudmouthed, in-your-face youngster seemed barely
competent enough to justify the effort, but a few – a very few – were
willing to give Naruto a chance. And that was enough to touch Naruto's
heart, make him open up… and as time went on, led to him recognizing
that many other people shared the same need to have someone – the right
someone – recognize them, listen to them, help set things right for them.

As time went on, Naruto truly grew up. He recognized that friendship,
honor, and – most importantly – empathy were the keys to peace, and that
even his greatest battles must be fought with the awareness that
unreasoning anger and hatred merely builds upon itself.

Ultimately, faced with a man who had wiped out his village, Naruto
defeated him… with a book and a name, and caused his nigh-godlike
opponent to restore what had been destroyed… and place the trust he had
sworn never to give to any into the hands of Naruto, believing in the
end that somehow, impossibly, this one shinobi warrior would find a way
to bring peace to the world.

And he is still fighting for that ideal.

For the journey to one of the most awesome heroes of all, Naruto gets
the penultimate position.

#1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man
I wrote in depth about this series exactly two years ago – May 9th,
2012 – and it was the very first post on this, my new website. There was
a very good reason that I chose The Six Million Dollar Man as my very
first post: Steve Austin was perhaps my greatest hero as a young man.

Victim of a test-plane crash (which later turned out to not have been
an accident), Steve Austin recovered from the horrific injuries to find
that he was no longer the man he had been: he was a cyborg, a bionic
man, possessed of superhuman speed, strength, toughness, and sight. At
first shocked and uncertain as to whether he even wanted this, Steve
quickly came to recognize that he had gained the capability to do things
even more important for the country and people he cared for than his
prior career as an astronaut or test pilot. Though I don't think the
words were ever used, he clearly knew that with great power came great
responsibility.

Steve was not merely a secret agent with awesome powers, though. He was
the conscience of the OSI (Office of Scientific Research), and more than
willing to serve as such even to his putative boss, Oscar Goldman. Early
episodes often showed the clash between Goldman's pragmatic approach and
Steve's belief that things could be handled in a more human and just
fashion – and while Oscar's pragmatism was often the wiser course,
Steve's was almost always the *right* course, even when sometimes it
turned around and bit him.

Steve Austin was – and still is – a symbol to me of what I wanted to
believe America is, and should be. And for all that he has meant to me
through the years, Lee Majors' Colonel Steve Austin takes the top spot.





--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 06:48:46 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:


>#1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man
> I wrote in depth about this series exactly two years ago – May 9th,
>2012 – and it was the very first post on this, my new website. There was
>a very good reason that I chose The Six Million Dollar Man as my very
>first post: Steve Austin was perhaps my greatest hero as a young man.

This is the only one on the list that really surprised me; I just
never saw the character as anthing all that special. Maybe it's our
age difference.

I'm mildly surprised but only mildly) there's no one from Doc Smith,
but then he was best at scale and setting, not so much character.

My own list would have some overlap -- maybe as many as six out of
ten. Maybe.




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[JRStern]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 06:48:46 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>#10: Spider-Man
>#9: Lord Valentine
>#8: Paksenarrion
>#7: Corwin of Amber
>#6: Ellen Ripley
>#5: The Doctor
>#4: Dorothy Gale
>#3: Captain America
>#2: Naruto Uzumaki

>#1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man

Say what? I think you have him confused with RoboCop.

I've never tried to make a list of my top 10 scifi heroes, are we
really supposed to ignore the real world?

Shouldn't Conan be here somewhere, or John Carter? Superman?
Gilgamesh (courtesy of Silverberg)? Zelazny's "Sam", Lord Kalkin,
from "Lord of Light"? Paul Muad'dib Atriedes? Morgaine? Frodo?
Heck, I'll take Wolverine as a hero over Peter Parker, I never have
groked the whole Spiderman thang. Captain Kirk? Luke Skywalker?
Darth Vader? Yoda?

Actually, few enough scifi stories seem to revolve around a "hero" as
such. I guess few scifi stories revolve around characters at all.
Still, seems like an opportunity, now that you mention it. Wait,
don't these newfangled "Hunger Games" and other teen throbs more or
less revolve around hero characters?

J.

[Richard Hershberger]

Harry Flashman, albeit only SF in a very broad sense.

Richard R. Hershberger

[David Johnston]

On 3/12/2015 4:48 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>
> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who
> isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this was…
> difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate
> gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who certainly rank high in
> my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I
> don't appreciate them as a great hero and example; there are many such
> who simply don't quite reach this top ten… or who might reach it on a
> different day.
>
> #10: Spider-Man

One thing that struck me as remarkable about Spider-Man was how well
thought out his adoption of a costumed identity was. The fact that it
originated with his first use of his powers being an attempt to go into
a form of show business, that he had to maintain a secret identity
because he was initially under-age and later because of Jameson being
out to get him, that he needed a stretchy skin-tight outfit for the way
he moved, even the large lensed eyes that wouldn't interfere with
peripheral vision. It was the best thought out superhero identity this
side of Prince Namor's swimming trunks.

> #7: Corwin of Amber

>
> For heroism that won't even admit to the word, Corwin gets the
> seventh slot in my heroic countdown.

Although after I got the Amber RPG I started to wonder...how much of his
story is a lie?

>
> #6: Ellen Ripley

> For human heroism that crosses the border from mere story to
> legend, Sigourney Weaver's Ellen Ripley gets my number six spot!

I wonder whether the new movie would somehow have the original or the
hybrid clone? Not that I'd object to the clone.

[Shawn Wilson]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 3:48:51 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:


> #10: Spider-Man
...

> He is one of the greatest comic-book heroes ever, and that lands him
> here, at number ten.

Yeah, OK. I *loved* Spider-Man ('there's a hyphen!') for a while, but then there was the Maximum Carnage story line (with one good panel, Spider-Man, lying on the ground having gotten his ass kicked by the villains again and unable to round up allies, and then there's *Captain America* holding out his hand and saying "Need a hand son?") and the Clone Saga (unrivaled evil) that killed it for me. I thought about getting back in and wham! One More Day, which split up Peter and Mary-Jane. They are apparently going to undo that this summer with 'Renew Your Vows', but I lack hope.




> #9: Lord Valentine


Unfamiliar.



> #8: Paksenarrion

I like the *concept* and I don't have a problem with a female Paladin in itself. (hey, will of the gods and all that) But female mercenary troops? I couldn't get past that.




> #7: Corwin of Amber


No...



> #6: Ellen Ripley


Eh.

> #5: The Doctor
> The Oncoming Storm. The Destroyer of Worlds. Time's Champion. A madman
> in a box. He is an exile from his own world, a renegade traveling in a
> stolen machine which is one of the most powerful starships of fiction.

OK.





> #4: Dorothy Gale


Really?




> #3: Captain America

> While Cap is a truly formidable opponent in almost any sense, it is not
> his powers that make him one of the great heroes; like others on this
> list, it is his heart and moral conviction that bring him to a place on
> my list. Captain America is the moral compass of his universe. He is the

> yardstick by which others in that universe are measured - and usually

> found very much wanting. He is also a man who does not think that he is
> anything extraordinary; he possesses a bone-deep humility that is almost
> certainly the major reason that he never even thinks about abusing these
> powers or exploiting his position.
>
> For being the hero that other heroes look to for guidance, Captain
> America gets the number-three slot!

Captain america's superpower is that he IS the hero. If you are fighting him, you are just dead wrong (ahem, Civil War...).



> #2: Naruto Uzumaki


Unfamiliar.

> #1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man

Whatever.

[Lynn McGuire]

On 3/12/2015 5:48 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>
> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this
> was… difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who
> certainly rank high in my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I don't appreciate them as a great hero
> and example; there are many such who simply don't quite reach this top ten… or who might reach it on a different day.

What, no Perry Rhodan? Or David Weber's reincarnation of him, Colin MacIntyre?

And how about Dahak, the computer ne battle planetoid orbiting the Earth for 50,000 years until he found a new captain?

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

And Tarzan! Tarzan was the first scifi series for me. 24 books! Had to look that up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarzan_%28book_series%29

Lynn

[Kevrob]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 5:00:34 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/12/2015 3:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 3/12/2015 5:48 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this

> >> was... difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who

> >> certainly rank high in my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I don't appreciate them as a great hero

> >> and example; there are many such who simply don't quite reach this top ten... or who might reach it on a different day.

> >
> > What, no Perry Rhodan? Or David Weber's reincarnation of him, Colin MacIntyre?
> >
> > And how about Dahak, the computer ne battle planetoid orbiting the Earth for 50,000 years until he found a new captain?
> >
> > Lynn
>
> And Tarzan! Tarzan was the first scifi series for me. 24 books! Had to look that up.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarzan_%28book_series%29

I may comment more about this later, but the Steve Austin of TV is derived from
the Steve Austin of Martin Caidin's books. (Cyborg, 1972, and 3 sequels). Those
are much darker, and college boy Kevrob quite liked them. I enjoyed the TV
show, but I think I was a little older than the target audience.

Compare and contrast, Wasp?

Kevin R

[Richard Todd]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> writes:

> The main character in the longest-running SF series of all
> time, Doctor Who, the Doctor is a Timelord, a native of the planet

Longest running television series, more precisely. If you widen it to
include print fiction, Perry Rhodan has the Doctor beaten by
a couple years (1961 vs 1963), and even more if we subtract the years
when Dr. Who wasn't in production (late 80s to 2005 or so).

[Michael R N Dolbear]

"Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" wrote

> #8: Paksenarrion
The sheepfarmer's daughter who ran away to adventure and found far more
than she could have imagined, Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion is one of
the ultimate and defining versions of the D&D "Paladin" character type –

> intention of her own – she has been chosen as a Paladin, a hero of the
god Gird. But it is not the choice that makes her a hero; it is clearly
the fact that she is already a hero that has caused Gird to choose her.

For the record, Gird is a Saint rather than a god.


--
Mike D

[Richard Todd]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> writes:

>
> I may comment more about this later, but the Steve Austin of TV is derived from
> the Steve Austin of Martin Caidin's books. (Cyborg, 1972, and 3 sequels). Those
> are much darker, and college boy Kevrob quite liked them. I enjoyed the TV
> show, but I think I was a little older than the target audience.

Yeah, I quite liked the Caidin novels too. Especially #3, "High
Crystal", where they're on a mission to an ancient Inca pyramid to
recover what turns out to be (spoilers below)




a big alien crystal serving as a laser cannon. If this book didn't
inspire the writers of SG1, it really should have.

[PeterM]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 3:48:51 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> #10: Spider-Man

Always one of my favorites, but definitely a character who benefits
from your sensible rule of "Consider the good stories, forget the
crappy ones."

> #3: Captain America

With a voice that could command a god...

Cap: "Let's get these fires put out."

Thor: (Raises hammer, calls down rain.)

... And does.

Hell, I even love the movie version, even though they went the
lame Ultimates route and gave him full on super-strength instead
of just "peak human strength" which we all know is really super-
strength but can pretend isn't.

> #1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man

I was a little too young to have clear memories of the show, but
I loved it. I mean, they had an alien robot Bigfoot played by Andre
the Giant, for God's sake. That alone makes the show one of the
coolest things to ever exist.

My favorite might have been the Venus probe, though. Every once
in awhile I try to explain how awesome that thing was to my wife,
including a masterful reproduction of the sound it made, but she
always appears less than impressed. Feh.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/12/15 1:56 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 06:48:46 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>
>> #1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man
>> I wrote in depth about this series exactly two years ago – May 9th,
>> 2012 – and it was the very first post on this, my new website. There was
>> a very good reason that I chose The Six Million Dollar Man as my very
>> first post: Steve Austin was perhaps my greatest hero as a young man.
>
> This is the only one on the list that really surprised me; I just
> never saw the character as anthing all that special. Maybe it's our
> age difference.

Possibly. If you didn't read my column on The Six Million Dollar Man,
it's here:
http://grandcentralarena.com/under-the-influence-the-six-million-dollar-man/

It was MY series.

>
> I'm mildly surprised but only mildly) there's no one from Doc Smith,
> but then he was best at scale and setting, not so much character.

His best CHARACTER was probably DuQuesne, and not a hero, so to speak. :)

Though Kimball Kinnison might nudge onto the list on some days. But
there's a LOT of competition. For instance, Straw Hat Luffy could easily
be on the list; I'm re-watching the series with my kids right now and
seeing more substance to him than I did the first time through.

>
> My own list would have some overlap -- maybe as many as six out of
> ten. Maybe.

That would be a lot of overlap, actually. In many instances I wouldn't
expect even one out of ten.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/12/15 2:25 PM, JRStern wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 06:48:46 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> #10: Spider-Man
>> #9: Lord Valentine
>> #8: Paksenarrion
>> #7: Corwin of Amber
>> #6: Ellen Ripley
>> #5: The Doctor
>> #4: Dorothy Gale
>> #3: Captain America
>> #2: Naruto Uzumaki
>> #1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man
>
> Say what? I think you have him confused with RoboCop.

No. Robocop was very cool, but he was not much like Steve except
insofar as both of them were pretty much straight arrows, left to
themselves. But Steve was allowed a lot more depth over the course of
the series.

>
> I've never tried to make a list of my top 10 scifi heroes, are we
> really supposed to ignore the real world?
>

Er, yeah, if it's top ten SF heroes. You want top ten real-world
heroes, go over ----> that way to a real world group!

> Shouldn't Conan be here somewhere, or John Carter?

Conan was certainly an impressive man, but HERO... only sometimes.
Other times, not so much. I only read one John Carter.


> Superman?

Like I said, there's a lot of competition, and on a different day
Kal-El might have made it. Though he's had a lot of incarnations, and
some of them were, well... kinda dickish on occasion. (see
www.superdickery.com)

> Gilgamesh (courtesy of Silverberg)? Zelazny's "Sam", Lord Kalkin,
> from "Lord of Light"?

Whichever Silverberg Gilgamesh is from, I didn't read it. Lord of Light
is not my favorite Zelazny.


> Paul Muad'dib Atriedes?

Eh. He didn't impress me much as a character; Dune was awesome, but I
often felt that Paul was more being pushed than leading.

> Morgaine?

Morgaine? From where?

> Frodo?

If I'm choosing from LotR, it'd probably be Sam who's more the hero
than anyone else.

> Heck, I'll take Wolverine as a hero over Peter Parker, I never have
> groked the whole Spiderman thang.

Wolverine isn't much of a hero. He was, in fact, the original "I walk
the edge that the rest of you don't, so you see the exact line between
HERO and VILLAIN" guy -- the one who would kill when others wouldn't,
the one who would take the low road instead of the high road.

In those early days, I liked him and he was kind of cool, but his whole
POINT was that he WAS NOT a hero, so he's not getting on the Top Ten
heroes list for sure. Later, he became one in a sea of grimdark. I blame
his success for that, so to an extent I lost respect for the character
because of that.

> Captain Kirk?

Kirk was on the shortlist but didn't quite make it that day.

> Luke Skywalker?

Much as I like Luke, he just didn't quite clear the top tier.

> Darth Vader? Yoda?

Vader's a villain, he was on the other list. I ignore the prequels.
Yoda was an Old Master, not a hero.

>
> Actually, few enough scifi stories seem to revolve around a "hero" as
> such.

Eh? Lots of them do. Heck, I've written a few myself.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Given the circumstances, I think it's all true, though how his own
perceptions COLORED what he saw is an interesting question.

In the AMBER campaigns I've run or played in, though, it was pretty
much accepted that Corwin told the truth as much as he knew it.

>
>>
>> #6: Ellen Ripley
>
>> For human heroism that crosses the border from mere story to
>> legend, Sigourney Weaver's Ellen Ripley gets my number six spot!
>
> I wonder whether the new movie would somehow have the original or the
> hybrid clone? Not that I'd object to the clone.

Last I heard, he was jettisoning A3 (thank gods!) and Resurrection
(which was pretty much inevitable if you get rid of A3).

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/12/15 4:57 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/12/2015 5:48 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>
>>
>> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for
>> who isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this
>> was… difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my
>> immediate gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who
>> certainly rank high in my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence
>> of a character to mean I don't appreciate them as a great hero
>> and example; there are many such who simply don't quite reach this top
>> ten… or who might reach it on a different day.
>
> What, no Perry Rhodan? Or David Weber's reincarnation of him, Colin
> MacIntyre?

Never read any Perry Rhodan. The only time I saw it in stores it was
"Perry Rhodan #102" or something like that and I never saw #1. I don't
start series in the middle, so I never started it.

MacIntyre is a cool character and certainly rates high up there. He
didn't quite make this list, though.

>
> And how about Dahak, the computer ne battle planetoid orbiting the Earth
> for 50,000 years until he found a new captain?

He's more the sidekick than the hero, though. Even if he is an awfully
BIG sidekick.



>
> Lynn

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

As you said, much darker, thus far less a hero, far less likeable. I
read the first book, said "well, I MUCH prefer the TV version" and that
was it for Caidin's version.

[lal_truckee]

Tarzan? (I see someone already pointed out this most glaring oversight.)

Also:
Allan Quartermain?
Professor Challenger?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/12/15 7:48 PM, PeterM wrote:
> On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 3:48:51 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> #10: Spider-Man
>
> Always one of my favorites, but definitely a character who benefits
> from your sensible rule of "Consider the good stories, forget the
> crappy ones."
>
>> #3: Captain America
>
> With a voice that could command a god...
>
> Cap: "Let's get these fires put out."
>
> Thor: (Raises hammer, calls down rain.)
>
> ... And does.
>
> Hell, I even love the movie version, even though they went the
> lame Ultimates route and gave him full on super-strength instead
> of just "peak human strength" which we all know is really super-
> strength but can pretend isn't.
>
>> #1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man
>
> I was a little too young to have clear memories of the show, but
> I loved it. I mean, they had an alien robot Bigfoot played by Andre
> the Giant, for God's sake. That alone makes the show one of the
> coolest things to ever exist.

And in later episodes played by Ted Cassidy, when Andre wasn't available.

>
> My favorite might have been the Venus probe, though. Every once
> in awhile I try to explain how awesome that thing was to my wife,
> including a masterful reproduction of the sound it made, but she
> always appears less than impressed. Feh.
>

"Death Probe", a very clever episode with two huge logical flaws (one
of which my 11-year-old self then fanwanked an explanation for). It was
certainly one of the most memorable episodes, partly of course because
the Probe was one of the few things that UTTERLY outmatched Steve in
pretty much every way; even Bigfoot would've had trouble with that thing.

[J. Clarke]

In article <mdtd2t$e7h$1...@dont-email.me>, lal_t...@yahoo.com says...

Not as long in the tooth as any of those, but how about Agatha
Heterodyne?

[Kevrob]

COZI TV has recently shown shows $6MMan episodes weekly, BTW

http://www.cozitv.com/shows/weekday/The-Six-Million-Dollar-Man-181039431.html

Currently, they've been subbing in Steve's sometimes squeeze, The Bionic Woman

http://www.cozitv.com/shows/weekday/The-Bionic-Woman-181044711.html

COZI is also running the UK's Avengers @ midnight.

I was not a big Spidey fan as a kid. I was 6 years old when AMAZING FANTASY
#15 was published, so, had I sufficient funds and permission to buy comics,
I could have gotten in on the ground floor, there. I didn't "get" Ditko
until I was older, when he became a favorite. Post-Ditko S-M leaves me
saying "meh." Romita (Sr) prettied the strip up too much, and Kane, who
I usually love, gave him incongruous heroic proportions. As for the
writing, the editorial demand that Peter Parker must always be the Marvel
Universe's butt-monkey gruntled me. What started out as innovative became
fossilized, every bit the straitjacket as the Clark/Lois/Superman
was in post-war DC comics.

Steve (Captain America) Rogers is a great character, when written
competently. ["Captain America is NEVER helpless!] Too much
blubbering about Bucky, sometimes, though, which always bothered
me after I learned that Stan had retconned* the old Timely comics,
in which both characters survived the war and kept fighting the
good fight until being supplanted by horror comics. He also loses
points for being a knock-off of Harry Shorten and Irv Novick's
original, The Shield.

(OK, compared to Cap, Joe Higgins was a lox.)

Kevin R

*Stan retconned before we called it a retcon. Roy Thomas made a career
out of explaining how things like Timely/Atlas stories could mesh with
modern Marvel tales. He took his enthusiasm for this to DC.
Besides, THE comic book SF hero was the Champion of Rann, Adam Strange.

[Greg Goss]

Lawrence Watt-Evans <l...@sff.net> wrote:

>My own list would have some overlap -- maybe as many as six out of
>ten. Maybe.

I'm somewhere near two out of ten.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <89ce7e3e-5301-4adf...@googlegroups.com>,
Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>*Stan [Lee] retconned before we called it a retcon.

There've been retcons for as long as there's been continuity; and
there's been continuity for as long as there's been shared universes
of story. By which I mean at least back to Greco-Roman myth.

--
David Goldfarb | "Justice or immortality. An intriguing choice."
goldf...@gmail.com |
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Babylon 5, "Deathwalker"

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <x77full...@ichotolot.servalan.com>,

New Doc Savage books are still being written..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <2918e4d5-2df0-4ea1...@googlegroups.com>,

I can still hear Steve's "using my superstrength" slo-mo-sound-fx.

We dodged a bullet a few years back when, iirc, Jim Carrey, was mooted
for a big screen version.

[Kay Shapero]

A few of my own favorites - no particular order

* Bahzell Bahnakson of David Weber's _Oath of Swords_ series. It's not
every hero who starts out by tossing the messenger of the god who wants
him to be his Champion overboard and running like hell... :) Not
stupid, not expendable...well, he did wind up going but his idea of
proper respect for the War God doesn't generally match anybody else's
except for the god in question himself anyway. I think Weber kept this
series going several books longer than he really should have, but what
the heck, I like the characters. And when all hell breaks loose,
literally, he's the guy you want on your side.

* Dr. Nile Etland, of James H. Schmitz's _Demon Breed_ (Originally
serialized in Analog as _The Tuvela_ which I find the better title).
Comes across a stealth alien invasion and proceeds to use her knowledge
of the ecology of her surroundings to nearly singlehandedly throw them
back off the planet. Schmitz only wrote two stories involving her iirc,
fortunately she was of a type of character he tended to favor.

* Hubert Hawkins, from "The Court Jester", Danny Kaye's character.
Never gives up even when it is obvious he probably should, and thus
manages to pull off the impossible. Not all weapons are immediately
obvious.

* Ororo, aka Storm of the X-Men. One of the strongest powers of the
lot, and one of the best able to handle it. Of course that scene in one
of the movies where somebody knocks her into that elevator shaft and she
floats back, mainfestly Pissed Off is one of my favorite scenes of the
whole series. :)

And I should be asleep. Maybe more later.



--

Kay Shapero
Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net

[Will in New Haven]

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 6:48:51 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who
> isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this was...
> difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate
> gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who certainly rank high in
> my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I
> don't appreciate them as a great hero and example; there are many such
> who simply don't quite reach this top ten... or who might reach it on a
> different day.
>

> #10: Spider-Man

> He is one of the greatest comic-book heroes ever, and that lands him
> here, at number ten.

I agree that he is _one of_ the greatest comic-book heroes ever. I am not completely immune to comic books but the Batman and the Badger would both make my list before Pidey and they probably aren't in my top ten.

> #9: Lord Valentine

He's a good guy who accomplishes a lot. If I liked the books better I might call him one of my favorites.
.
>
> #8: Paksenarrion

She might make my list when I do one.

> > #7: Corwin of Amber

Him also.

>
> #6: Ellen Ripley

Certainly a worthy choice. Might make my top ten.
>
> #5: The Doctor

Whatever people love about this show goes right by me.

>
> #4: Dorothy Gale


>

>
> But The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is only her first adventure

It's all I know her from and she is still going to make my top twenty, maybe my top ten.

> #3: Captain America

Meh



>
> #2: Naruto Uzumaki
> "Give up... on me giving up!"
>

Don't know this one and I am going to look him up.

>
> #1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man

I thought it unwatchable.

Here are some of mine, not yet in order or complete

Holger Carlsoon, _Three Hearts & Three Lions_ Poul Anderson

Tyr from the story where he loses his hand to the Fenris Wolf. Even more heroic than when Odin gave so much for wisdom.

Istvan di Vega from Paul Edwin Zimmer's DARK BORDER books

Cordelia Naithsmith Vorkosigan from Bujold's series

--
Will in New Haven

[Brian M. Scott]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote
in<news:mdtco4$d49$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 3/12/15 2:25 PM, JRStern wrote:

[...]

>> Morgaine?

> Morgaine? From where?

Perhaps Cherryh’s Morgaine Cycle: _Gate of Ivrel_, _Well of
Shiuan_, _Fires of Azeroth_, and _Exile’s Gate_.

[...]

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 01:40:41 -0700, Kay Shapero
<k...@invalid.net> wrote
in<news:MPG.2f6c42649...@news.eternal-september.org>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> A few of my own favorites - no particular order

> * Bahzell Bahnakson of David Weber's _Oath of Swords_
> series. It's not every hero who starts out by tossing
> the messenger of the god who wants him to be his
> Champion overboard and running like hell... :) Not
> stupid, not expendable...well, he did wind up going but
> his idea of proper respect for the War God doesn't
> generally match anybody else's except for the god in
> question himself anyway. I think Weber kept this series
> going several books longer than he really should have,
> but what the heck, I like the characters. And when all
> hell breaks loose, literally, he's the guy you want on
> your side.

I, on the other hand, wish that he’d get back to it. _War
Maid’s Choice_ was fun and sets a couple of hooks that I’d
like to see followed up.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/12/15 9:05 PM, lal_truckee wrote:
>
> Tarzan? (I see someone already pointed out this most glaring oversight.)
>

I only read two Tarzan books and he didn't impress me as much as some
others.

> Also:
> Allan Quartermain?

I don't think I ever got through any of those.

> Professor Challenger?

A great character, not so much the hero. Something of a dick.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I like Agatha, but she hasn't struck that chord yet. Gilgamesh
Wulfenbach is closer.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

Hear it? I have that, the bionic eye, and the bionic jump sound effect
on my computer! (I was playing Steve in a Torchwood RPG, so I needed them)

> We dodged a bullet a few years back when, iirc, Jim Carrey, was mooted
> for a big screen version.
>

Carrey IS capable of serious play, and if he'd done that, it might have
worked, but I would have been very leery of the choice.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/13/15 4:40 AM, Kay Shapero wrote:
> A few of my own favorites - no particular order

> * Dr. Nile Etland, of James H. Schmitz's _Demon Breed_ (Originally
> serialized in Analog as _The Tuvela_ which I find the better title).
> Comes across a stealth alien invasion and proceeds to use her knowledge
> of the ecology of her surroundings to nearly singlehandedly throw them
> back off the planet. Schmitz only wrote two stories involving her iirc,
> fortunately she was of a type of character he tended to favor.
>

She was on the list, but the dearth of stories didn't help her.

> * Hubert Hawkins, from "The Court Jester", Danny Kaye's character.
> Never gives up even when it is obvious he probably should, and thus
> manages to pull off the impossible. Not all weapons are immediately
> obvious.

Heh. The Vessel with the Pestle holds the Pellet with the Poison!

>
> * Ororo, aka Storm of the X-Men. One of the strongest powers of the
> lot, and one of the best able to handle it. Of course that scene in one
> of the movies where somebody knocks her into that elevator shaft and she
> floats back, mainfestly Pissed Off is one of my favorite scenes of the
> whole series. :)

Better in the comics. But if I was going for an X-Man as hero, it would
probably be Kitty Pryde in her best moments.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/13/15 9:41 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 6:48:51 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who
>> isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this was...
>> difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate
>> gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who certainly rank high in
>> my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I
>> don't appreciate them as a great hero and example; there are many such
>> who simply don't quite reach this top ten... or who might reach it on a
>> different day.
>>
>> #10: Spider-Man
>
>> He is one of the greatest comic-book heroes ever, and that lands him
>> here, at number ten.
>
> I agree that he is _one of_ the greatest comic-book heroes ever. I am not completely immune to comic books but the Batman and the Badger would both make my list before Pidey and they probably aren't in my top ten.
>

Batman is one of the iconic superheroes, but he's less "hero" than the
others. Never heard of the Badger.

>>
>> #2: Naruto Uzumaki
>> "Give up... on me giving up!"
>>
>
> Don't know this one and I am going to look him up.

It's a show almost as long as One Piece. The earlier stuff ("Naruto")
is somewhat more comedic at times than the later stuff ("Naruto Shippuden")

>
> Here are some of mine, not yet in order or complete
>
> Holger Carlsoon, _Three Hearts & Three Lions_ Poul Anderson

Never read that one.

>
> Tyr from the story where he loses his hand to the Fenris Wolf. Even more heroic than when Odin gave so much for wisdom.
>

Well, that's certainly heroic, yes.

> Istvan di Vega from Paul Edwin Zimmer's DARK BORDER books

Don't know those.

>
> Cordelia Naithsmith Vorkosigan from Bujold's series
>

Hm. She's certainly got qualifications.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/13/15 4:37 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
> Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote
> in<news:mdtco4$d49$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On 3/12/15 2:25 PM, JRStern wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> Morgaine?
>
>> Morgaine? From where?
>
> Perhaps Cherryh’s Morgaine Cycle: _Gate of Ivrel_, _Well of
> Shiuan_, _Fires of Azeroth_, and _Exile’s Gate_.
>
> [...]
>

Never could get into Cherryh.

[Will in New Haven]

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 7:08:09 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/13/15 9:41 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 6:48:51 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who
> >> isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this was...
> >> difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate
> >> gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who certainly rank high in
> >> my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I
> >> don't appreciate them as a great hero and example; there are many such
> >> who simply don't quite reach this top ten... or who might reach it on a
> >> different day.
> >>
> >> #10: Spider-Man
> >
> >> He is one of the greatest comic-book heroes ever, and that lands him
> >> here, at number ten.
> >
> > I agree that he is _one of_ the greatest comic-book heroes ever. I am not completely immune to comic books but the Batman and the Badger would both make my list before Pidey and they probably aren't in my top ten.
> >
>
> Batman is one of the iconic superheroes, but he's less "hero" than the
> others. Never heard of the Badger.

Having _no_ super-powers makes each of them actually heroic. Well, the Badger may have a super-power, if being bat-shit crazy is a super-power. The Badger was an indie comic in the Eighties.

When I played in super-hero RPG I could glide like the radioactive flying squirrel that bit me and I think I had enhanced eyesight. And a real-life pistol with, very expensive, rocket-assisted round. I kicked ass. I always found Superman boring.

>
>
> >>
> >> #2: Naruto Uzumaki
> >> "Give up... on me giving up!"
> >>
> >
> > Don't know this one and I am going to look him up.
>
> It's a show almost as long as One Piece. The earlier stuff ("Naruto")
> is somewhat more comedic at times than the later stuff ("Naruto Shippuden")
>
>
> >
> > Here are some of mine, not yet in order or complete
> >
> > Holger Carlsoon, _Three Hearts & Three Lions_ Poul Anderson
>
> Never read that one.

You missed something.

> > Tyr from the story where he loses his hand to the Fenris Wolf. Even more heroic than when Odin gave so much for wisdom.
> >
>
> Well, that's certainly heroic, yes.
>
> > Istvan di Vega from Paul Edwin Zimmer's DARK BORDER books
>
> Don't know those

Out of print. I never knew anyone who tried them who didn't like them but they didn't sell. I blame the covers.

> >
> > Cordelia Naithsmith Vorkosigan from Bujold's series
> >
>
> Hm. She's certainly got qualifications.

And Pyanfar Chanur, but you don't get into Cherryh.

[David Goldfarb]

In article <mdvqj7$332$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 3/13/15 9:41 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
>> Holger Carlsoon, _Three Hearts & Three Lions_ Poul Anderson
>
> Never read that one.

Oh, Wasp, you've missed out on a classic. Pick this one up soonest.

(It's "Carlsen", though, not "Carlsoon".)

--
David Goldfarb |"I'm reconsidering my desire to go to college, as
goldf...@gmail.com | from what I've seen on this group it drives one
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | immediately and incurably insane."
| -- ACM, on rec.arts.comics.xbooks

[JRStern]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:08:28 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 3/13/15 4:37 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>> Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote
>> in<news:mdtco4$d49$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>>
>>> On 3/12/15 2:25 PM, JRStern wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> Morgaine?
>>
>>> Morgaine? From where?
>>
>> Perhaps Cherryh’s Morgaine Cycle: _Gate of Ivrel_, _Well of
>> Shiuan_, _Fires of Azeroth_, and _Exile’s Gate_.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>
> Never could get into Cherryh.

It's an acquired taste, which I never quite achieved either, but I've
read about half her earlier stuff because it has good elements, and I
just kept wanting to give it one more chance.

J.

[JRStern]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>> Shouldn't Conan be here somewhere, or John Carter?
>
> Conan was certainly an impressive man, but HERO... only sometimes.
>Other times, not so much. I only read one John Carter.

The "only sometimes" seems a lot more realistic - than say, John

Carter.

>> Superman?
>
> Like I said, there's a lot of competition, and on a different day
>Kal-El might have made it. Though he's had a lot of incarnations, and
>some of them were, well... kinda dickish on occasion. (see
>www.superdickery.com)

Sure, but the classic stuff can hardly be ignored.

>> Gilgamesh (courtesy of Silverberg)? Zelazny's "Sam", Lord Kalkin,
>> from "Lord of Light"?
>
> Whichever Silverberg Gilgamesh is from, I didn't read it. Lord of Light
>is not my favorite Zelazny.

Silverberg decided to simply rewrite "Gilgamesh" with minimal changes,
which seems a bit odd, but it was interesting all the same.

"Lord of Light" with the nonlinear timeline is another monster work
even if you have to untangle things to get the full story. My
favorite Zelazny ... too close to call, at least a nine-way tie.

>> Paul Muad'dib Atriedes?
>
> Eh. He didn't impress me much as a character; Dune was awesome, but I
>often felt that Paul was more being pushed than leading.

Up to a point, and then on his own will - and then onto the sequels
were even he was trapped in a world he never made, with a semi-tragic
end. Classic hero.


>> Morgaine?
>
> Morgaine? From where?

Cherryh, as below.

>> Frodo?
>
> If I'm choosing from LotR, it'd probably be Sam who's more the hero
>than anyone else.

You're a better hobbit than I am, Sam Gamgee?

>> Heck, I'll take Wolverine as a hero over Peter Parker, I never have
>> groked the whole Spiderman thang.
>
> Wolverine isn't much of a hero. He was, in fact, the original "I walk
>the edge that the rest of you don't, so you see the exact line between
>HERO and VILLAIN" guy -- the one who would kill when others wouldn't,
>the one who would take the low road instead of the high road.
>
> In those early days, I liked him and he was kind of cool, but his whole
>POINT was that he WAS NOT a hero, so he's not getting on the Top Ten
>heroes list for sure. Later, he became one in a sea of grimdark. I blame
>his success for that, so to an extent I lost respect for the character
>because of that.

I like a reluctant hero, and frankly there's little enough reason for
Wolverine to hang out with those other mutants and galactics and
subject himself to all that stuff and dressing in those lyrca outfits
and all, so it's mostly a stretch when he's in anything like an
Avengers story at all, except that as an individual a constant
rehashing of his origin stories and such gets tedious. But I still
like the character, even if I don't know what to do with it, either.

>> Captain Kirk?
>
> Kirk was on the shortlist but didn't quite make it that day.
>
>> Luke Skywalker?
>
> Much as I like Luke, he just didn't quite clear the top tier.
>
>> Darth Vader? Yoda?
>
> Vader's a villain, he was on the other list. I ignore the prequels.
>Yoda was an Old Master, not a hero.

But a master that stays in the game deserves credit, and Vader redeems
himself in the end, for that matter nobody in the saga comes out lily
white except for the storm troopers' uniforms. I doubt Vader would
make my top 10 heroes either, but he might be on a list somewhere.

>>
>> Actually, few enough scifi stories seem to revolve around a "hero" as
>> such.
>
> Eh? Lots of them do. Heck, I've written a few myself.

Thought I should also mention Ender Wiggin another (very) reluctant
hero. I suppose most stories have lead protagonists, but I look for
more before calling them "hero".

J.

[Michael R N Dolbear]

"Brian M. Scott" wrote in message
news:enafpcv2jv8u$.1svgrrpmk3o9s$.dlg@40tude.net...

> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 01:40:41 -0700, Kay Shapero <k...@invalid.net> wrote

>> * Bahzell Bahnakson of David Weber's _Oath of Swords_
>> series. It's not every hero who starts out by tossing

> I, on the other hand, wish that he’d get back to it. _War
Maid’s Choice_ was fun and sets a couple of hooks that I’d
like to see followed up.

Next up in that universe (Baen August 2015)

The Sword of the South David Weber

Bahzell may walk on.


--
Mike D

[Lynn McGuire]

Yes, I thought of Ender also. For the courage to plant Rooter.

Lynn

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 16:53:38 -0700 (PDT), Will in New Haven
<willre...@yahoo.com> wrote
in<news:ebd2dc89-527f-487c...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 7:08:09 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp
> (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

>> On 3/13/15 9:41 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:

[...]

>>> Holger Carlsoon, _Three Hearts & Three Lions_ Poul
>>> Anderson

>> Never read that one.

> You missed something.

A classic.

[...]

>>> Istvan di Vega from Paul Edwin Zimmer's DARK BORDER
>>> books

>> Don't know those

> Out of print. I never knew anyone who tried them who
> didn't like them but they didn't sell. I blame the
> covers.

I didn’t actually dislike them, but I didn’t particularly
like them, either. I wasn’t much taken with any of the
characters, and I’m one of those who find the ending
unsatisfying. (I’m talking only about the original
duology; I don’t think that I ever read the other two
books.)

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/13/15 7:53 PM, Will in New Haven wrote:
> On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 7:08:09 PM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 3/13/15 9:41 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 6:48:51 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who
>>>> isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this was...
>>>> difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate
>>>> gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who certainly rank high in
>>>> my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I
>>>> don't appreciate them as a great hero and example; there are many such
>>>> who simply don't quite reach this top ten... or who might reach it on a
>>>> different day.
>>>>
>>>> #10: Spider-Man
>>>
>>>> He is one of the greatest comic-book heroes ever, and that lands him
>>>> here, at number ten.
>>>
>>> I agree that he is _one of_ the greatest comic-book heroes ever. I am not completely immune to comic books but the Batman and the Badger would both make my list before Pidey and they probably aren't in my top ten.
>>>
>>
>> Batman is one of the iconic superheroes, but he's less "hero" than the
>> others. Never heard of the Badger.
>
> Having _no_ super-powers makes each of them actually heroic.

That doesn't make sense to me. Spider-Man is fighting people fully able
to compete with, or kill, him, so he's no less heroic than anyone else
would be. The only way being super-powered makes you less heroic is if
you are not and cannot be threatened by those you go up against.
Superman sorta qualifies there, when Kryptonite's rare and hard to play
with. Anyone else, no, unless they're purposely fighting mooks.

> Well, the Badger may have a super-power, if being bat-shit crazy is a super-power. The Badger was an indie comic in the Eighties.
>

The Batman has the superpower of More Money And Technology Than You.
And, in some incarnations, More Deductive Power than Sherlock Holmes,
which is a superpower.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 23:58:15 GMT, David Goldfarb
<gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu> wrote
in<news:nL6D9...@kithrup.com> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> In article <mdvqj7$332$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>>On 3/13/15 9:41 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:

>>> Holger Carlsoon, _Three Hearts & Three Lions_ Poul
>>> Anderson

>> Never read that one.

> Oh, Wasp, you've missed out on a classic. Pick this one
> up soonest.

> (It's "Carlsen", though, not "Carlsoon".)

Or you can just call him Holger Danske.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 00:35:50 -0000, Michael R N Dolbear
<m...@privacy.net> wrote
in<news:cmhe41...@mid.individual.net> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

Thanks.

> Bahzell may walk on.

Judging by the snippets that I just tracked down, he may do
a bit more than that. But I’ll be just as happy to see
more of Wencit of Rūm, not to mention the eleven-year-old
girl mentioned in the blurg.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 17:06:44 -0700, JRStern
<JRS...@foobar.invalid> wrote
in<news:mqu6ga53d3fhh5t8e...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:08:28 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>>On 3/13/15 4:37 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>>> Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote
>>> in<news:mdtco4$d49$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

>>>> On 3/12/15 2:25 PM, JRStern wrote:

>>> [...]

>>>>> Morgaine?

>>>> Morgaine? From where?

>>> Perhaps Cherryh'’s Morgaine Cycle: _Gate of Ivrel_,
>>> _Well of Shiuan_, _Fires of Azeroth_, and _Exile’s
>>> Gate_.

>> Never could get into Cherryh.

> It's an acquired taste, which I never quite achieved
> either, but I've read about half her earlier stuff
> because it has good elements, and I just kept wanting to
> give it one more chance.

While there are individual works of hers that I don’t much
care for, most notably _Cyteen_, I’ve always liked her
writing. I rate the Foreigner universe series as easily
the best long-running science fiction series around. Then
again, I tend to like anthropological sf.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/13/15 8:22 PM, JRStern wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>> Shouldn't Conan be here somewhere, or John Carter?
>>
>> Conan was certainly an impressive man, but HERO... only sometimes.
>> Other times, not so much. I only read one John Carter.
>
> The "only sometimes" seems a lot more realistic - than say, John
> Carter.

I'm reading fiction, and talking about fictional heroes. Why would
realistic be a positive trait? I want heroes. REAL heroes.

>>> Paul Muad'dib Atriedes?
>>
>> Eh. He didn't impress me much as a character; Dune was awesome, but I
>> often felt that Paul was more being pushed than leading.
>
> Up to a point, and then on his own will - and then onto the sequels
> were even he was trapped in a world he never made, with a semi-tragic
> end. Classic hero.

1) There were no sequels; that's pure delusion. Shame Herbert never
followed up on _DUNE_, but maybe it's just as well; how could he have
matched that brilliance in later books?

2) You do not describe "classic hero" by my definition.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <mdvqj7$332$1...@dont-email.me>,

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 3/13/15 9:41 AM, Will in New Haven wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 6:48:51 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>Spoor) wrote:
>>> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who
>>> isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this was...
>>> difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate
>>> gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who certainly rank high in
>>> my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I
>>> don't appreciate them as a great hero and example; there are many such
>>> who simply don't quite reach this top ten... or who might reach it on a
>>> different day.
>>>
>>> #10: Spider-Man
>>
>>> He is one of the greatest comic-book heroes ever, and that lands him
>>> here, at number ten.
>>
>> I agree that he is _one of_ the greatest comic-book heroes ever. I am
>not completely immune to comic books but the Batman and the Badger would
>both make my list before Pidey and they probably aren't in my top ten.
>>
>
> Batman is one of the iconic superheroes, but he's less "hero" than the
>others. Never heard of the Badger.
>

Mike Baron's "other hero" (after Nexus). Very funny stuff, but more
farce than real heroics. "Put on a costume and fight crime? You'd have
to be crazy!".

[JRStern]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:50:07 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 3/13/15 8:22 PM, JRStern wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Shouldn't Conan be here somewhere, or John Carter?
>>>
>>> Conan was certainly an impressive man, but HERO... only sometimes.
>>> Other times, not so much. I only read one John Carter.
>>
>> The "only sometimes" seems a lot more realistic - than say, John
>> Carter.
>
> I'm reading fiction, and talking about fictional heroes. Why would
>realistic be a positive trait? I want heroes. REAL heroes.

Cuz otherwise they just snap their fingers and solve all problems,
deus ex machina, turning everything that went before to crap.

>>>> Paul Muad'dib Atriedes?
>>>
>>> Eh. He didn't impress me much as a character; Dune was awesome, but I
>>> often felt that Paul was more being pushed than leading.
>>
>> Up to a point, and then on his own will - and then onto the sequels
>> were even he was trapped in a world he never made, with a semi-tragic
>> end. Classic hero.
>
> 1) There were no sequels; that's pure delusion. Shame Herbert never
>followed up on _DUNE_, but maybe it's just as well; how could he have
>matched that brilliance in later books?

Say what?

> 2) You do not describe "classic hero" by my definition.

Well, Googling, there is some differentiation between "classic hero"
and "tragic hero", with both going back to ancient Greece. I thought
there was more of a consensus on a modern definition.

Would you like to offer yours?

J.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-03-13, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 3/12/15 2:25 PM, JRStern wrote:

>> Morgaine?
>
> Morgaine? From where?

Possibly Cherryh's gate-closer series?

Dave, ... Elric?
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-03-13, Will in New Haven <willre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Here are some of mine, not yet in order or complete
>
> Holger Carlsoon, _Three Hearts & Three Lions_ Poul Anderson
>
> Tyr from the story where he loses his hand to the Fenris Wolf. Even more
> heroic than when Odin gave so much for wisdom.
>
> Istvan di Vega from Paul Edwin Zimmer's DARK BORDER books
>
> Cordelia Naithsmith Vorkosigan from Bujold's series

Since I'm reading the archives right now, David Walkerton.

Dave, and also Rick from Fans!

[Robert A. Woodward]

In article <lcd7gapptjjime0f2...@4ax.com>,

Ryk lives in a fortunate time line that has no sequels to _Dune_
(or, for that matter, more than on "Highlander" movie).

--
Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com>
<http://robertaw.drizzlehosting.com>

[Robert A. Woodward]

In article <enafpcv2jv8u$.1svgrrpmk3o9s$.d...@40tude.net>,

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 01:40:41 -0700, Kay Shapero
> <k...@invalid.net> wrote
> in<news:MPG.2f6c42649...@news.eternal-september.org>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> > A few of my own favorites - no particular order
>
> > * Bahzell Bahnakson of David Weber's _Oath of Swords_
> > series. It's not every hero who starts out by tossing
> > the messenger of the god who wants him to be his
> > Champion overboard and running like hell... :) Not
> > stupid, not expendable...well, he did wind up going but
> > his idea of proper respect for the War God doesn't
> > generally match anybody else's except for the god in
> > question himself anyway. I think Weber kept this series
> > going several books longer than he really should have,
> > but what the heck, I like the characters. And when all
> > hell breaks loose, literally, he's the guy you want on
> > your side.
>
> I, on the other hand, wish that he’d get back to it. _War
> Maid’s Choice_ was fun and sets a couple of hooks that I’d
> like to see followed up.
>

The first book of the followup series comes out in August (Bahzell
was "merely" prologue - this series is the main event).

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 6:53:17 AM UTC+11, Shawn Wilson wrote:
> On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 3:48:51 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> > #8: Paksenarrion
>
> I like the *concept* and I don't have a problem with a female Paladin in itself. (hey, will of the gods and all that) But female mercenary troops? I couldn't get past that.
>

You are aware that there have been significant numbers of female warriors in real life aren't you?

[Leif Roar Moldskred]

Will in New Haven <willre...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

> And Pyanfar Chanur, but you don't get into Cherryh.
>

You know, I'd almost suggest Khym Mahn instead. Pyanfar
at least understands the world she works in, but Khym
has nothing but his faith in Pyanfar to lean back
against.

One could say that he _starts_ as a hero in the books,
and _then_ goes on a hero's journey.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/14/15 12:20 AM, JRStern wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:50:07 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 3/13/15 8:22 PM, JRStern wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Shouldn't Conan be here somewhere, or John Carter?
>>>>
>>>> Conan was certainly an impressive man, but HERO... only sometimes.
>>>> Other times, not so much. I only read one John Carter.
>>>
>>> The "only sometimes" seems a lot more realistic - than say, John
>>> Carter.
>>
>> I'm reading fiction, and talking about fictional heroes. Why would
>> realistic be a positive trait? I want heroes. REAL heroes.
>
> Cuz otherwise they just snap their fingers and solve all problems,
> deus ex machina, turning everything that went before to crap.

You are not describing, for example, Captain America in there, and he's
a real hero. Nor, in fact, anyone on my list.

>
>
>>>>> Paul Muad'dib Atriedes?
>>>>
>>>> Eh. He didn't impress me much as a character; Dune was awesome, but I
>>>> often felt that Paul was more being pushed than leading.
>>>
>>> Up to a point, and then on his own will - and then onto the sequels
>>> were even he was trapped in a world he never made, with a semi-tragic
>>> end. Classic hero.
>>
>> 1) There were no sequels; that's pure delusion. Shame Herbert never
>> followed up on _DUNE_, but maybe it's just as well; how could he have
>> matched that brilliance in later books?
>
> Say what?

Did I not make my dislike for all Dune-related sequelae clear enough?

>
>> 2) You do not describe "classic hero" by my definition.
>
> Well, Googling, there is some differentiation between "classic hero"
> and "tragic hero", with both going back to ancient Greece. I thought
> there was more of a consensus on a modern definition.
>
> Would you like to offer yours?

"I know it when I see it". Captain America is a hero. Wolverine is much
less so. The darker they get, the less of a hero they are. The more
compromise they're willing to do, the less heroic they are. If they
started dark, they have to go to the light *AND STAY THERE*, not dip
back and forth. And so on.

[Will in New Haven]

Well, he doesn't get as much "screen time" but, yes, Na Khym is a hero.

[Will in New Haven]

The other two books don't change the ending as they are prequels. When I said "didn't like them," I meant that the least enthusiastic reactions were somewhat similar to yours, not that everyone was wildly enthusiastic. But the reactions didn't _seem_ to equal "go out of print very fast."

I talked to Paul about the ending fairly shortly after the two books came out. He intended it to be tragic and he knew not everyone would like it. On the other hand, lots of people who don't mind tragedy found the ending too lacking in resolution.

And _The King Who Was of Old_ is supposedly already written and not published. To me, that's tragic.

[Shawn Wilson]

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 11:43:54 PM UTC-7, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:


> > I like the *concept* and I don't have a problem with a female Paladin in itself. (hey, will of the gods and all that) But female mercenary troops? I couldn't get past that.
> >
>
> You are aware that there have been significant numbers of female warriors in real life aren't you?

Are YOU aware that that 'significant number' is a rounding error on a rounding error on the number of male troops. There's a reason. Fighting (successfully) requires strength that women do not possess. Women are not qualified to be soldiers (combat soldiers, support 'troops' don't count) NOW, much less than back in the day when strength was even more important.

[JRStern]

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 09:03:31 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"

<sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 3/14/15 12:20 AM, JRStern wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:50:07 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/13/15 8:22 PM, JRStern wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Shouldn't Conan be here somewhere, or John Carter?
>>>>>
>>>>> Conan was certainly an impressive man, but HERO... only sometimes.
>>>>> Other times, not so much. I only read one John Carter.
>>>>
>>>> The "only sometimes" seems a lot more realistic - than say, John
>>>> Carter.
>>>
>>> I'm reading fiction, and talking about fictional heroes. Why would
>>> realistic be a positive trait? I want heroes. REAL heroes.
>>
>> Cuz otherwise they just snap their fingers and solve all problems,
>> deus ex machina, turning everything that went before to crap.
>
> You are not describing, for example, Captain America in there, and he's
>a real hero. Nor, in fact, anyone on my list.

I never have fully groked any non-super-powered super-hero other than
maybe Batman. And now that you mention it, "super-hero" may be a
rather distinct category from "hero".

Y'know when I was just a sprout my take on this kind of thing was that
I liked the comic-book approach, if you're going to have a hero *make*
him a super-hero, clean lines and all shiny. And it's not that I grew
up and got cynical, well, maybe that too, but even worse I started to
see what happens when people really *do* go all clean and shiny on
these things and it gets old really fast, it seems simple-minded and
an unconscious self-parody, such that even a conscious self-parody
like Sponge Bob seems more intelligent and coherent.

>
>>
>>
>>>>>> Paul Muad'dib Atriedes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Eh. He didn't impress me much as a character; Dune was awesome, but I
>>>>> often felt that Paul was more being pushed than leading.
>>>>
>>>> Up to a point, and then on his own will - and then onto the sequels
>>>> were even he was trapped in a world he never made, with a semi-tragic
>>>> end. Classic hero.
>>>
>>> 1) There were no sequels; that's pure delusion. Shame Herbert never
>>> followed up on _DUNE_, but maybe it's just as well; how could he have
>>> matched that brilliance in later books?
>>
>> Say what?
>
> Did I not make my dislike for all Dune-related sequelae clear enough?

I saw something zip by but never got a good look at it.

>>> 2) You do not describe "classic hero" by my definition.
>>
>> Well, Googling, there is some differentiation between "classic hero"
>> and "tragic hero", with both going back to ancient Greece. I thought
>> there was more of a consensus on a modern definition.
>>
>> Would you like to offer yours?
>
> "I know it when I see it".

Harumph.

> Captain America is a hero. Wolverine is much
>less so. The darker they get, the less of a hero they are. The more
>compromise they're willing to do, the less heroic they are. If they
>started dark, they have to go to the light *AND STAY THERE*, not dip
>back and forth. And so on.

And stay there ... can't even retire to clip coupons? Must they go
out in a blaze of fire, or must they be immortal? Or do we just turn
our eyes away before anything bad happens and remember them in their
primes? "That was one cool dude, that Cool Hand Luke".

J.

[David Johnston]

On 3/14/2015 10:55 AM, Shawn Wilson wrote:
> On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 11:43:54 PM UTC-7, hamis...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>
>>> I like the *concept* and I don't have a problem with a female
>>> Paladin in itself. (hey, will of the gods and all that) But
>>> female mercenary troops? I couldn't get past that.
>>>
>>
>> You are aware that there have been significant numbers of female
>> warriors in real life aren't you?
>
>
> Are YOU aware that that 'significant number' is a rounding error on a
> rounding error on the number of male troops.

I'm aware. I'm also aware that the exceptions did exist, that female
troops were rare in Paksenarrion's setting, and that magic is an easy
way to bend physical rules.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 3/14/15 1:00 PM, JRStern wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 09:03:31 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 3/14/15 12:20 AM, JRStern wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:50:07 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/13/15 8:22 PM, JRStern wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 20:59:30 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>>> <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shouldn't Conan be here somewhere, or John Carter?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Conan was certainly an impressive man, but HERO... only sometimes.
>>>>>> Other times, not so much. I only read one John Carter.
>>>>>
>>>>> The "only sometimes" seems a lot more realistic - than say, John
>>>>> Carter.
>>>>
>>>> I'm reading fiction, and talking about fictional heroes. Why would
>>>> realistic be a positive trait? I want heroes. REAL heroes.
>>>
>>> Cuz otherwise they just snap their fingers and solve all problems,
>>> deus ex machina, turning everything that went before to crap.
>>
>> You are not describing, for example, Captain America in there, and he's
>> a real hero. Nor, in fact, anyone on my list.
>
> I never have fully groked any non-super-powered super-hero other than
> maybe Batman. And now that you mention it, "super-hero" may be a
> rather distinct category from "hero".

I don't consider it a distinct category, just a subcategory.

>
> Y'know when I was just a sprout my take on this kind of thing was that
> I liked the comic-book approach, if you're going to have a hero *make*
> him a super-hero, clean lines and all shiny. And it's not that I grew
> up and got cynical, well, maybe that too, but even worse I started to
> see what happens when people really *do* go all clean and shiny on
> these things and it gets old really fast, it seems simple-minded and
> an unconscious self-parody, such that even a conscious self-parody
> like Sponge Bob seems more intelligent and coherent.

While to me the darker ones are simpleminded. Anyone can go dark; the
real world shows that's a vastly more likely direction for people to go.

It takes a far more special person to NOT go that direction.

>>>> 2) You do not describe "classic hero" by my definition.
>>>
>>> Well, Googling, there is some differentiation between "classic hero"
>>> and "tragic hero", with both going back to ancient Greece. I thought
>>> there was more of a consensus on a modern definition.
>>>
>>> Would you like to offer yours?
>>
>> "I know it when I see it".
>
> Harumph.
>
>> Captain America is a hero. Wolverine is much
>> less so. The darker they get, the less of a hero they are. The more
>> compromise they're willing to do, the less heroic they are. If they
>> started dark, they have to go to the light *AND STAY THERE*, not dip
>> back and forth. And so on.
>
> And stay there ... can't even retire to clip coupons?

As long as they're clipping coupons HEROICALLY that's fine.

They have to stay on the light side. That doesn't mean they have to
stay on the front lines if they're in a walker.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 06:41:09 -0700 (PDT), Will in New Haven
<willre...@yahoo.com> wrote
in<news:e9a2db74-2f51-45ab...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]

> Cordelia Naithsmith Vorkosigan from Bujold's series

I’ve never cared enough for that series for her to stand
out. Lupe dy Cazaril, however, certainly qualifies.

[Shawn Wilson]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 11:07:15 AM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:


> I'm aware. I'm also aware that the exceptions did exist, that female
> troops were rare in Paksenarrion's setting, and that magic is an easy
> way to bend physical rules.

Thing is, change things enough to make women viable combat soldiers and the rest of society changes to make it too different for me to relate to. In other words, traditional roles exist for a reason. Change the underlying reasons and you change the roles. Female paladin then has a different and lesser meaning.

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 15:36:36 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote
in<news:me22ik$r6d$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On 3/14/15 1:00 PM, JRStern wrote:

[..]

>> And now that you mention it, "super-hero" may be a
>> rather distinct category from "hero".

> I don't consider it a distinct category, just a
> subcategory.

I think that for me it’s a distinct category, and one
that’s never done much for me. The only one on your list
that arouses instant agreement is Paks. I don’t remember
Valentine well enough to have an opinion. Amongst
Zelazny’s characters I think that I’d pick Sam and perhaps
even Conrad before Corwin, though that may have as much to
do with my preference for those books as it does with the
characters. I understand the argument for Dorothy, but for
some reason she doesn’t quite hit the button for me.
Spider-Man I know slightly from the funnies, but I never
cared for him at all, I’ve only ever seen two or three
Doctor Who episodes, and the rest are even less familiar.

I won’t even try for a ranked list, but I’ll list a few off
the top of my head (for which reason it will have a bias
towards more recent reading). Bren Cameron in Cherryh’s
Foreigner universe is a hero. Lupe dy Cazeril in Bujold’s
_The Curse of Chalion_ is a hero. Rebakah Cooper in
Pierce’s Tortall universe is a hero, as are Keladry and
Alanna. Cassandra Kresnov is a hero. Modesty Blaise is a
hero. In her own odd way Kaylin Neya may just be a hero.
Toby Daye and Kate Daniels qualify.

[...]

Brian
--
It was called ‘Birdsong at Eventide’, and it went, ‘Ting
_pling_ ting pling _ting_, ting tong, ting tong, ting
tonggg clonk, bother!’ At least, that is how it went
when Myrtle played it. -- _Larklight_, by Philip Reeve

[Kay Shapero]

In article <robertaw-0CA204...@news.individual.net>,
robe...@drizzle.com says...

>
> In article <enafpcv2jv8u$.1svgrrpmk3o9s$.d...@40tude.net>,
> "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2015 01:40:41 -0700, Kay Shapero
> > <k...@invalid.net> wrote
> > in<news:MPG.2f6c42649...@news.eternal-september.org>
> > in rec.arts.sf.written:
> >
> > > A few of my own favorites - no particular order
> >
> > > * Bahzell Bahnakson of David Weber's _Oath of Swords_
> > > series. It's not every hero who starts out by tossing
> > > the messenger of the god who wants him to be his
> > > Champion overboard and running like hell... :) Not
> > > stupid, not expendable...well, he did wind up going but
> > > his idea of proper respect for the War God doesn't
> > > generally match anybody else's except for the god in
> > > question himself anyway. I think Weber kept this series
> > > going several books longer than he really should have,
> > > but what the heck, I like the characters. And when all
> > > hell breaks loose, literally, he's the guy you want on
> > > your side.
> >

> > I, on the other hand, wish that he�d get back to it. _War
> > Maid�s Choice_ was fun and sets a couple of hooks that I�d

> > like to see followed up.
> >
>
> The first book of the followup series comes out in August (Bahzell
> was "merely" prologue - this series is the main event).

So a lot of that may have been necessary as backstory. I just noticed
as the series went on more and more of the fantasy cliches appeared to
be getting piled on poor Bahzell. If that was just prologue, what's the
name of the main series? I shall have to read it.

--

Kay Shapero
Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net.

[Don Kuenz]

Brian M. Scott <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Mar 2015 15:36:36 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
> Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote
> in<news:me22ik$r6d$1...@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
>> On 3/14/15 1:00 PM, JRStern wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>>> And now that you mention it, "super-hero" may be a
>>> rather distinct category from "hero".
>
>> I don't consider it a distinct category, just a
>> subcategory.
>

> I think that for me it?s a distinct category, and one
> that?s never done much for me. The only one on your list
> that arouses instant agreement is Paks. I don?t remember

> Valentine well enough to have an opinion. Amongst

> Zelazny?s characters I think that I?d pick Sam and perhaps

> even Conrad before Corwin, though that may have as much to
> do with my preference for those books as it does with the
> characters. I understand the argument for Dorothy, but for

> some reason she doesn?t quite hit the button for me.

> Spider-Man I know slightly from the funnies, but I never

> cared for him at all, I?ve only ever seen two or three

> Doctor Who episodes, and the rest are even less familiar.
>

> I won?t even try for a ranked list, but I?ll list a few off

> the top of my head (for which reason it will have a bias

> towards more recent reading). Bren Cameron in Cherryh?s
> Foreigner universe is a hero. Lupe dy Cazeril in Bujold?s

> _The Curse of Chalion_ is a hero. Rebakah Cooper in

> Pierce?s Tortall universe is a hero, as are Keladry and

> Alanna. Cassandra Kresnov is a hero. Modesty Blaise is a
> hero. In her own odd way Kaylin Neya may just be a hero.
> Toby Daye and Kate Daniels qualify.

My vote also goes to Modesty as a hero. The rest of those characters are
strangers to me. The primordial and Golden Age pulp that I mostly read
these days seems too ephemeral for heroes.

--
,-. GIVE MORE expect less LOVE MORE
\_/ argue less LISTEN MORE talk less
{|||)< Don Kuenz LAUGH MORE complain less DREAM MORE
/ \ doubt less HOPE MORE fear less
`-' BREATHE MORE whine less

[Greg Goss]

>On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 06:48:46 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
><sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>#10: Spider-Man
>>#9: Lord Valentine
>>#8: Paksenarrion
>>#7: Corwin of Amber
>>#6: Ellen Ripley
>>#5: The Doctor
>>#4: Dorothy Gale
>>#3: Captain America
>>#2: Naruto Uzumaki
>>#1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man
>
>Say what? I think you have him confused with RoboCop.

Most of the books I read have protagonists, not heroes. A hero needs
to do (or risk) self-sacrifice and do great deeds.

Perhaps Niven and whatsisname's Baedeker? Perhaps Tunesmith of the
final Ringworld.

Harrington risks everything many times and accomplishes great deeds.

Heinlein's juvie protagonists are generally dropped into situations
and survive. I'm not sure I would call any of them "heroes". Perhaps
Baslim, though his works all happened off-screen.

I never read enough Ozen to have an opinion on Dorothy as hero. Amber
and Valentine are something I bounced off of more than once. The
Doctor is something that has too much backstory for me to drop into
the middle of and I never made the effort (which is different than
bouncing off a work.)

I was never a Marvel person and the DC heros are too cardboard for my
adult taste. The 6E6 man strikes me as "comic book", too.

But I'll endorse his Ellen Ripley.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

In other words Shawn is threatened by the idea that there are women who can kick his arse...

[Will in New Haven]

An unfair, but very amusing, comment.

The answer to his objections is _individual_ testing and evaluation. It doesn't matter if most members of a group can't do x as long as you find the ones who _can_

A few years ago the state high school spring champion was a white kid from a largely Black school. If Shawn were in charge he would not have been allowed to try out.

[David Johnston]

On 3/14/2015 4:03 PM, Shawn Wilson wrote:
> On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 11:07:15 AM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>
>> I'm aware. I'm also aware that the exceptions did exist, that female
>> troops were rare in Paksenarrion's setting, and that magic is an easy
>> way to bend physical rules.
>
>
> Thing is, change things enough to make women viable combat soldiers and the rest of society changes to make it too different for me to relate to.

Wow. That must be a crippling disability for a reader of science
fiction and fantasy. "This society is different from real life! I
can't cope!"

[erilar]

In article <cmkf03...@mid.individual.net>,

Greg Goss <go...@gossg.org> wrote:

> >On Thu, 12 Mar 2015 06:48:46 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> ><sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >
> >>#10: Spider-Man
> >>#9: Lord Valentine
> >>#8: Paksenarrion
> >>#7: Corwin of Amber
> >>#6: Ellen Ripley
> >>#5: The Doctor
> >>#4: Dorothy Gale
> >>#3: Captain America
> >>#2: Naruto Uzumaki
> >>#1: Steve Austin, the Six Million Dollar Man

Well, I agree with Paks and The Doctor. Some of them ring few or no
bells for me. NOT #10, #3, or #1 in my universe.

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[erilar]

In article <j6k926mu6f5j.171ol34ushpey$.d...@40tude.net>,

"Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu> wrote:

> I won’t even try for a ranked list, but I’ll list a few off
> the top of my head (for which reason it will have a bias
> towards more recent reading). Bren Cameron in Cherryh’s
> Foreigner universe is a hero. Lupe dy Cazeril in Bujold’s
> _The Curse of Chalion_ is a hero. Rebakah Cooper in
> Pierce’s Tortall universe is a hero, as are Keladry and
> Alanna. Cassandra Kresnov is a hero. Modesty Blaise is a
> hero. In her own odd way Kaylin Neya may just be a hero.
> Toby Daye and Kate Daniels qualify.

Bren, yes! Modesty, yes. Jewel from House Wars as well as Kaylin. I'd
include Honor Harrington. Now I'm getting closer to 10.

And I've watched ALL the Doctors except the very latest one. Some I'd
put in the list and others not. NOT the first one, definitely. I
actively disliked Hartnell's Doctor. But Tom Baker is my favorite to
this very day 8-)

--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Somewhere I said I might agree on as many as six. Looking at the list
again, I retract that.

Three out of ten.


--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[BCFD36]

On 3/13/15 3:33 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> On 3/13/15 4:40 AM, Kay Shapero wrote:
>> A few of my own favorites - no particular order
>

>> * Dr. Nile Etland, of James H. Schmitz's _Demon Breed_ (Originally
>> serialized in Analog as _The Tuvela_ which I find the better title).
>> Comes across a stealth alien invasion and proceeds to use her knowledge
>> of the ecology of her surroundings to nearly singlehandedly throw them
>> back off the planet. Schmitz only wrote two stories involving her iirc,
>> fortunately she was of a type of character he tended to favor.
>>
>
> She was on the list, but the dearth of stories didn't help her.
>
>> * Hubert Hawkins, from "The Court Jester", Danny Kaye's character.
>> Never gives up even when it is obvious he probably should, and thus
>> manages to pull off the impossible. Not all weapons are immediately
>> obvious.
>
> Heh. The Vessel with the Pestle holds the Pellet with the Poison!
>
The flagon with the dragon holds the brew that is true.


--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Speaking of heroes who could also do "comic", let my put in my word
for Xena. I would put her way above Steve Austin. Compelling backstory,
real character development (way beyond the initial "warlord of the week"
stuff), excellent acting by both leads and in the end she laid down
her life for what was right.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

[Don Kuenz]

If that's how it's going to roll, allow me to nominate Harlan Ellison.
My copy of _Star Trek: City on the Edge of Forever_ arrived a while ago.
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-City-Edge-Forever/dp/1631402064
The Easter egg section near the end discloses:

Chapter 5, Page 1
Panel 3: Another friend-of-the-artist cameo. HARLAN ELLISON!!!
He fought at Verdun. The role of Trooper is played by Harlan
Ellison.

spoiler space


Trooper dies a hero's death.

[hamis...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, March 18, 2015 at 2:36:57 PM UTC+11, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> Speaking of heroes who could also do "comic", let my put in my word
> for Xena. I would put her way above Steve Austin. Compelling backstory,
> real character development (way beyond the initial "warlord of the week"
> stuff), excellent acting by both leads and in the end she laid down
> her life for what was right.

and there was a subtext of adventures in something vaguely resembling the ancient world...

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <f1f54da3-2998-4086...@googlegroups.com>,

That's not what the subtext was..

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I liked Xena, but she was for a long time a Work In Progress/The
Atoner. Gabrielle started out with the spirit, evolved into a hero on
her own. The two made a great pair. I don't think I ever watched it to
the end, though.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <mec85b$r23$2...@dont-email.me>,

Well, yes I'd say that was one of the powerful bits of the show.
Xena had done horrible things and could only redeem herself
by becoming a hero in full. (And though she didn't realize it
at first also find redemption in the love of Gabrielle).

(SOME SPOILERS for a 10+ year old show)

IMHO, the series really hit its stride in Season 3 with long development
arcs, peaked in Season 4 with a year long unavoidable prophecy ending
in a stunning moment of violence from Gabrielle and a double crucifixition.

Season Five was largely regrettable. Tappert left the show in the
hands of the Hercules team while he tried (unsuccesfully) to get a
Cleo an a Bruce Campbell vehicle off the ground. By that time Xena was
so unlike Hercules that it didn't work *at all*.

Season Six was a worthy code, with some drift but lots of excellent
episodes and the aforementioned final sacrifice.

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

I think I stopped after the Dayhog (or however the demon was actually
spelled) debacle.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <meca3p$3ia$1...@dont-email.me>,

You know, some people here I can guess whether they might like something,
but you are all over the map :-)

In my mind the "Rift" arc in season 3 (With Dahak) culminating in
the musical episode "The Bitter Suite" was a series high point. Who
but Lawless with 2.5 seasons of history behind her could make "Scratch
my nose" a heartbreaking line?

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

DAHAK? That's what they were saying? Dahak? Jeez. That's sure not what
I heard.

culminating in
> the musical episode "The Bitter Suite" was a series high point.

The musical episode I remember was certainly... interesting. I don't
generally like "friend fights friend" sequences, and I detest musicals,
so the fact that I didn't shut it off probably says something about how
well-done it was.

The darker something gets, generally the less I like it, and the Dahak
storyline got pretty damn dark. About the only thing I remember clearly
from one of the later episodes is a sequence in which their success
depended on a very quick sequence of events going EXACTLY as planned,
and one of those sequences involved Joxer catching and throwing
something EXACTLY correctly at just the right time. And not only did he
succeed at doing so, it was clear that they *EXPECTED* him to succeed in
doing so. Which kinda confirmed my impression that his whole
incompetence thing really was his own self-destructive behavior, and he
was a total Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass who rarely let the latter
part out.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <mecg5m$tpj$1...@dont-email.me>,

Joxer could be depended upon in *big* things. Like Barney Fife facing
down the crooks with his one bullet when the chips were down.

Yes the "Rift" was a dark storyline what with rapish-demonic-pregnancy,
betrayal, the "Gab Drag" and mothers' dashed hopes.

Luckily "Fins, Femmes & Gems" was on the way..

[Kevrob]

Wasp may detest musicals, but I LURVVED the "Joxer the Mighty" theme song.

Kevin R

[Lynn McGuire]

On 3/12/2015 5:48 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>
> For long-term readers of mine, this list may be as notable for who isn't on it as for who is. The decisionmaking process on this
> was… difficult, to say the least. In the end, I had to go with my immediate gut reactions and leave out many, many heroes who
> certainly rank high in my personal pantheon. Do not take the absence of a character to mean I don't appreciate them as a great hero
> and example; there are many such who simply don't quite reach this top ten… or who might reach it on a different day.

Ia from the excellent "Theirs not to reason why" five book series by Jean Johnson:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00POPLWBC/ref=dp_st_0441020631

Lynn

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <e517451c-05ce-432a...@googlegroups.com>,

>Wasp may detest musicals, but I LURVVED the "Joxer the Mighty" theme song.
>
>Kevin R

"And he's good with com-pa-nee, golly gee, he's Joxer, Joxer the Mighty!"

[Kevrob]

Revel in its splendor!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3xHC5TU7BE

Kevin R

[T Guy]

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 4:55:49 PM UTC, Shawn Wilson wrote:
> On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 11:43:54 PM UTC-7, hamis...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > I like the *concept* and I don't have a problem with a female Paladin in itself. (hey, will of the gods and all that) But female mercenary troops? I couldn't get past that.
> >
> > You are aware that there have been significant numbers of female warriors in real life aren't you?
>
> Are YOU aware that that 'significant number' is a rounding error on a rounding error on the number of male troops. There's a reason. Fighting (successfully) requires strength that women do not possess. Women are not qualified to be soldiers (combat soldiers, support 'troops' don't count) NOW, much less than back in the day when strength was even more important.

While I see your point, I do hear a noise in the distance that might be laughter from the grave of Lyudmila Pavlichenko.

[Kevrob]

Dead link.

https://youtu.be/2_6qs1K9jrU
Kevin R

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote in
news:c0bc26cc-213d-40fd...@googlegroups.com:

Since you're replying to a seven year old post, I'm not surprised.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <c0bc26cc-213d-40fd...@googlegroups.com>,

The soundtracks (I have all 6) are usually credited to Joseph LoDuca,
who did a really good job (and surprisingly doesn't seem to have
done any new work since Xena). "Joxer the Mighty" was written at least
in part by Ted Rami himself who admitted a cartoon inspiration for
part of it... Admitted very generically because clearly it was the "Mickey
Mouse Club Theme" and I'm sure he didn't want to be sued into penury.

[Lynn McGuire]

Yes, I have been noticing a lot of linkrot on youtube lately. Not good.

Lynn

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

In article <td3hru$282ul$1...@dont-email.me>,

BTW, the team that spoiled Xena Season 5 as mentioned?

Alex Kurtzman and Roberto Orci

You may have heard of them by now..

[Scott Lurndal]

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha <taus...@gmail.com> writes:
>Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote in

looks like he was replying to himself, to update the link.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

sc...@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote in news:FucJK.731757
$ntj.6...@fx15.iad:

It still seems unlikely that anyone else will care.