When Benderism Goes Bad
bm2...@eve.albany.edu
which the earth is facing some Cosmic Menace and the Plucky Heroes
come up with an elaborate scheme to save mankind which involves
murdering most of humanity.
Things do not go as planned, and it's only due to the survival of some
people which under the Plan should have been worm food that the world
is saved.
So, other stories of this type? In which the heroes must make some
Hard Choice For The Greater Good in which a massive number of innocent
people must die - and it turns out to be a pretty screwed plan in the
actual execution?
Bruce
il...@rcn.com
netcat
91219c...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, il...@rcn.com says...
> What is "Benderism"? Given your example, all I can think of is:
>
> http://jovan.ru/pics/bender.gif
>
Oh great. Now I want a T-shirt with that.
rgds,
netcat
James Nicoll
<il...@rcn.com> wrote:
>What is "Benderism"?
The belief held by self-hating humans that most problems can be
resolved by killing most of the human species or rather that most problems
*should* be resolved by killing most of the human species.
--
http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
http://www.cafepress.com/jdnicoll (For all your "The problem with
defending the English language [...]" T-shirt, cup and tote-bag needs)
Kurt Busiek
> In article <fbe35d5d-8a62-4c4e...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> <il...@rcn.com> wrote:
>> What is "Benderism"?
>
> The belief held by self-hating humans that most problems can be
> resolved by killing most of the human species or rather that most problems
> *should* be resolved by killing most of the human species.
We can solve that by killing everyone who thiks that way.
kdb
Michael S. Schiffer
news:af10adb3-bf2c-4579...@n1g2000prb.googlegroups.c
om:
Not quite most of humanity, but a Hard Choice involving mass death:
Alan Moore, _Watchmen_, by the implication of the ending, suggesting
that Veidt's plan (retroactively ratified by all the plucky heroes
except Rorschach) will ultimately come undone via the publication of
the diary. ("Nothing ever ends.") Adrian says he's not a Republic
serial villain, but the voiceover from "The Architects of Fear" at
the end of the story likewise suggests he's not as far off as he
believes.
(Also, inadvertently, by subsequent history, which suggests that the
Cold War could be brought to an acceptable ending with fewer than the
two million-odd deaths Veidt's plan required.)
Mike
John Reiher
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> In article
> <fbe35d5d-8a62-4c4e...@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> <il...@rcn.com> wrote:
> >What is "Benderism"?
>
> The belief held by self-hating humans that most problems can be
> resolved by killing most of the human species or rather that most problems
> *should* be resolved by killing most of the human species.
Of course, this killing does not include the self-hating humans, they
will be the sole survivors and rule what's left of the human population.
:-)
--
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Konrad Gaertner
>
> So, other stories of this type? In which the heroes must make some
> Hard Choice For The Greater Good in which a massive number of innocent
> people must die - and it turns out to be a pretty screwed plan in the
> actual execution?
On a lesser scale there's Fiest's Riftwar trilogy: the first book ends
with one character using lies and illusions to start a major battle in
the middle of a peace conference in order to prevent a shadowy menace
from finding this world. And of course SW shows up anyway in the
third book. What really bugs me is all the sympathetic characters
who continue to unquestioningly obey this character throughout the rest
of the series.
--
Konrad Gaertner - - - - - - - - - - - - - email: kgae...@tx.rr.com
http://kgbooklog.livejournal.com/
"If I let myself get hung up on only doing things that had any actual
chance of success, I'd never do *anything*!" Elan, Order of the Stick
art...@yahoo.com
In George Turner's The Destiny Makers and (IIRC) Drowned Towers, there
is decisions to control population by a virus which reduces fertility.
Ahasuerus
> On Apr 8, 12:01 am, bm2...@eve.albany.edu wrote:
>
> > Was reading an old Williamson story ("The Fortress of Utopia" IIRC) in
> > which the earth is facing some Cosmic Menace and the Plucky Heroes
> > come up with an elaborate scheme to save mankind which involves
> > murdering most of humanity.
>
> > Things do not go as planned, and it's only due to the survival of some
> > people which under the Plan should have been worm food that the world
> > is saved.
>
> > So, other stories of this type? In which the heroes must make some
> > Hard Choice For The Greater Good in which a massive number of innocent
> > people must die - and it turns out to be a pretty screwed plan in the
> > actual execution?
>
> is decisions to control population by a virus which reduces fertility.
A somewhat similar approach to controlling population is used, all too
successfully, in Mack Reynolds' "How We Banned the Bombs".
Cosmin Corbea
> What is "Benderism"? Given your example, all I can think of is:
Must be a reference to Ostap Bender. So it's probably the inclination to
swindle socialist organizations of state.
--
Regards,
Cosmin Corbea
John
"Kurt Busiek" <ku...@busiek.comics> wrote in message
news:2008040809071775249-kurt@busiekcomics...
Most of them, at least.
William December Starr
"Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> said:
> Not quite most of humanity, but a Hard Choice involving mass
> death: Alan Moore, _Watchmen_, by the implication of the ending,
> suggesting that [spoiler's] plan (retroactively ratified by all the
> plucky heroes except Rorschach) will ultimately come undone via
> the publication of the diary. ("Nothing ever ends.")
Mmmaybe. Moore was careful to be very ambiguous about that. I
mean, it was about the crankiest of crank publications, after all.
> [spoiler] says he's not a Republic serial villain, but the
> voiceover from "The Architects of Fear" at the end of the story
> likewise suggests he's not as far off as he believes.
My take on [spoiler] is that he was a guy who came up with an idea
and then fell so madly in love with its sheer elegance what he just
_had_ to see it executed.
> (Also, inadvertently, by subsequent history, which suggests that
> the Cold War could be brought to an acceptable ending with fewer
> than the two million-odd deaths [spoiler's[ plan required.)
Our Cold War, maybe. But a Cold War in which, among other things,
Dr. Manhattan stands astride the world and Richard Nixon's serving
his third(?) term as President?
--
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com>
David Goldfarb
William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>a Cold War in which, among other things,
>Dr. Manhattan stands astride the world and Richard Nixon's serving
>his third(?) term as President?
I seem to recall that the story takes place in the year 1984. My
impression is that their history doesn't start really seriously
diverging from our own until Nixon gets Manhattan to intervene in
Vietnam; therefore I assume that Nixon was first elected in 1968,
just as he was in OTL. That would make it his fourth term.
--
David Goldfarb |"Neckties are Satanic symbols. They represent
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |Judas's noose. Those who wear neckties signify
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |their identification with the man who betrayed
|Our Lord." -- IHCOYC XPICTOC on alt.gothic
Michael S. Schiffer
news:fthscd$nhn$1...@panix3.panix.com:
> In article <Xns9A7A849F7B83...@130.133.1.4>,
> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> said:
>> Not quite most of humanity, but a Hard Choice involving mass
>> death: Alan Moore, _Watchmen_, by the implication of the
>> ending, suggesting that [spoiler's] plan (retroactively
>> ratified by all the plucky heroes except Rorschach) will
>> ultimately come undone via the publication of the diary.
>> ("Nothing ever ends.")
> Mmmaybe. Moore was careful to be very ambiguous about that. I
> mean, it was about the crankiest of crank publications, after
> all.
Sure. But the very fact that the threat exists makes the Hard
Choice suspect, especially given how much the argument for it
depends on the Smartest Man in the World knowing better than
everyone else.
>> [spoiler] says he's not a Republic serial villain, but the
>> voiceover from "The Architects of Fear" at the end of the story
>> likewise suggests he's not as far off as he believes.
> My take on [spoiler] is that he was a guy who came up with an
> idea and then fell so madly in love with its sheer elegance what
> he just _had_ to see it executed.
That last being the operative word. :-) And of course he modeled
himself on figures famous in part for the devastation and chaos
they left after them...
>> (Also, inadvertently, by subsequent history, which suggests
>> that the Cold War could be brought to an acceptable ending with
>> fewer than the two million-odd deaths [spoiler's[ plan
>> required.)
> Our Cold War, maybe. But a Cold War in which, among other
> things, Dr. Manhattan stands astride the world and Richard
> Nixon's serving his third(?) term as President?
It's unclear to me why being less successful geopolitically for the
previous couple decades would make the USSR *more* durable, or more
willing to go for the global thermonuclear war option than their
real-world counterparts. But in our 1984, the Soviets didn't look
remotely as close to the ropes as they turned out to be, and
failing to see that was hardly unique to Moore. Hence,
"inadvertently".
And "suggests"-- of course, given how little we see of the Soviets
themselves in _Watchmen_, it's possible to interpret their
situation as the reader chooses. But I think it's reasonable to
figure that _Watchmen_ would have looked very different if Moore
had been writing in 1991, say, than 1984, even if he'd been writing
a period piece set in the same year with the same historical
divergences.
Mike
loua...@yahoo.com
The robot Bender in "Futurama," who occasionally slips and reveals how
much he would really, really like to kill all the humans.
(But I think he's shortsighted. Apart from the one human he likes and
the several others he's sort of gotten used to, a world without humans
would give him a lot fewer people to swindle.)
Michael S. Schiffer
news:8977baab-565b-4344...@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.
com:
>...
> The robot Bender in "Futurama," who occasionally slips and
> reveals how much he would really, really like to kill all the
> humans.
> (But I think he's shortsighted.
To say that there's a great deal of evidence for this being a
fundamental element of his character would be to understate the case.
:-)
Apart from the one human he
> likes and the several others he's sort of gotten used to, a
> world without humans would give him a lot fewer people to
> swindle.)
Though there are always aliens, many of whom are even dumber than
humans.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Michael Alan Chary
David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <fthscd$nhn$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>a Cold War in which, among other things,
>>Dr. Manhattan stands astride the world and Richard Nixon's serving
>>his third(?) term as President?
>
>I seem to recall that the story takes place in the year 1984. My
>impression is that their history doesn't start really seriously
>diverging from our own until Nixon gets Manhattan to intervene in
>Vietnam; therefore I assume that Nixon was first elected in 1968,
>just as he was in OTL. That would make it his fourth term.
Nixon won in 1960 in the Watchmenverse, no?
--
The All-New, All-Different Howling Curmudgeons!
http://www.whiterose.org/howlingcurmudgeons
David Goldfarb
Michael Alan Chary <mch...@panix.com> wrote:
>In article <fthtd8$doq$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>In article <fthscd$nhn$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>a Cold War in which, among other things,
>>>Dr. Manhattan stands astride the world and Richard Nixon's serving
>>>his third(?) term as President?
>>
>>I seem to recall that the story takes place in the year 1984. My
>>impression is that their history doesn't start really seriously
>>diverging from our own until Nixon gets Manhattan to intervene in
>>Vietnam; therefore I assume that Nixon was first elected in 1968,
>>just as he was in OTL. That would make it his fourth term.
>
>Nixon won in 1960 in the Watchmenverse, no?
I recall the Comedian saying, "Don't ask me where I was when
Kennedy was shot." I also recall somebody quoting JFK's
"watchmen on the walls" speech. Both those things say to me
that JFK won in 1960 and was assassinated in 1963, as in OTL.
Can you give me textev saying otherwise?
--
David Goldfarb | "M as in Mary, P as in Paul, U as in...
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | um...something beginning with U."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu |
Michael S. Schiffer
@reader2.panix.com:
> In article <fthtd8$doq$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>In article <fthscd$nhn$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>a Cold War in which, among other things,
>>>Dr. Manhattan stands astride the world and Richard Nixon's serving
>>>his third(?) term as President?
>>I seem to recall that the story takes place in the year 1984. My
>>impression is that their history doesn't start really seriously
>>diverging from our own until Nixon gets Manhattan to intervene in
>>Vietnam; therefore I assume that Nixon was first elected in 1968,
>>just as he was in OTL. That would make it his fourth term.
> Nixon won in 1960 in the Watchmenverse, no?
I don't think so. Didn't the Comedian say something about not asking
him where he was on 11/22/63?
Bryan Derksen
> So, other stories of this type? In which the heroes must make some
> Hard Choice For The Greater Good in which a massive number of innocent
> people must die - and it turns out to be a pretty screwed plan in the
> actual execution?
Jack L. Chalker's "Web of the Chozen" is like that, though the full
implementation of the plan is left to after the book ends.
In the book, most of humanity is under a political system that favors
conformity and the main character is a nonconformist who makes a living
scouting unexplored planets solo. He gets infected by a virus that turns
him into an alien creature resembling a sort of kangaroo-antelope
crossbreed, and then decides that the only way to save humanity from
stagnation (and to save his own hide in the process) is to spread the
virus everywhere. All the people who are "unable to adapt to change"
will die out in the process, which he guesses will be the majority, and
then civilization will carry on unencumbered by conformist baggage by
relying on preexisting automation (since nobody will have serviceable
hands any more).
There are so many things wrong with this plan that although we never see
it executed I know it just _has_ to wind up completely screwed. :)
Michael Alan Chary
David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>In article <ftj1tg$dm7$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>Michael Alan Chary <mch...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In article <fthtd8$doq$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>>David Goldfarb <gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
>>>In article <fthscd$nhn$1...@panix3.panix.com>,
>>>William December Starr <wds...@panix.com> wrote:
>>>>a Cold War in which, among other things,
>>>>Dr. Manhattan stands astride the world and Richard Nixon's serving
>>>>his third(?) term as President?
>>>
>>>I seem to recall that the story takes place in the year 1984. My
>>>impression is that their history doesn't start really seriously
>>>diverging from our own until Nixon gets Manhattan to intervene in
>>>Vietnam; therefore I assume that Nixon was first elected in 1968,
>>>just as he was in OTL. That would make it his fourth term.
>>
>>Nixon won in 1960 in the Watchmenverse, no?
>
>I recall the Comedian saying, "Don't ask me where I was when
>Kennedy was shot." I also recall somebody quoting JFK's
>"watchmen on the walls" speech. Both those things say to me
>that JFK won in 1960 and was assassinated in 1963, as in OTL.
>Can you give me textev saying otherwise?
No. It's been a solid 10 years since I last read Watchmen. I was just
asking. Hell, I haven't read the pirate parts since the comics first came
out.
netcat
says...
Um, this is a spoiler probably to even mention it...
Recently read "Off on a Starship" and would say there are many things of
the same sort wrong with the plan executed at its end as well.
rgds,
netcat
William December Starr
netcat <net...@devnull.eridani.eol.ee> said:
> Recently read "Off on a Starship" and would say there are many
> things of the same sort wrong with the plan executed at its end
> as well.
I really really hope that (1) we weren't intended by the author to
and (2) no readers did think of the event at the end of the story as
anything other than a self-indulgent tantrum on the part of a very
badly (non)socialized early-teenaged jerk.
netcat
I wasn't sure what the author intended us to think. He seemed
sympathetic to the guy throughout the story. Haven't read Barton besides
that story, but from reviews I gather he doesn't go for empathy much,
does he? More of a end justifying the means kind of guy, is he not?
Or perhaps I got it all wrong and the ending is such as it is because
Barton _wanted_ a tragic ending.
All I know is, I have been a very badly (non)socialized teenage SF fan
myself and if I had been there with the guy when he was about to put his
idea into practice, I'd wrung his neck faster than he could blink. So
being socially dysfunctional and disappointed in humanity isn't
necessarily all it takes to commit self-indulgent genocide. There was
something else wrong with this guy.
rgds,
netcat