Jordan: Who was Tam al'Thor REALLY?
Chris Byler
not have net access:
Tam al'Thor is Rand's half brother.
First, it is fairly obvious that Tam is descended on his father's side from
Aemon al-Caar al'Thorin (sp), the last king of Manetheren, and this *may*
account for the heron-mark blade... Similarity in names goes that far at least.
His descent on his mother's side, according to this theory, is from Rand's
mother, Shaiel, who was a wetlander before she became a Maiden. In tSR (sorry,
no page numbers available) it is stated that she left behind a child she loved
and a husband she didn't. A few pages later, Rand's father is said to have
been killed (during the Aiel War) by someone who resembled his wife --
probably her son from her former life. From here it is not too great a leap to
suppose that this person was Tam al'Thor, and that he found Rand shortly after
and adopted him. (This may be corroborated by Tam's account, if any, of where/
how he found Rand -- I haven't been able to find that in the books, if anyone
can tell me where it is I'll be grateful.)
Interesting theory, huh? What do you think of it?
--Chris Byler--
John Novak
>Tam al'Thor is Rand's half brother.
>First, it is fairly obvious that Tam is descended on his father's side from
>Aemon al-Caar al'Thorin (sp), the last king of Manetheren, and this *may*
>account for the heron-mark blade... Similarity in names goes that far at least.
I believe Tam got his sword the hard way-- he probably killed its
previous owner. The evidence points to Tam's having learned how
to use his sword quite well. He is described as having a fluid
grace very similar to a warder in tSR. He is noted somewhere as
having rising to a high posting in Illian during his travels.
Something like the Second Captain of the King's Companions, or
something like that.
>His descent on his mother's side, according to this theory, is from Rand's
>mother, Shaiel, who was a wetlander before she became a Maiden. In tSR (sorry,
>no page numbers available) it is stated that she left behind a child she loved
>and a husband she didn't. A few pages later, Rand's father is said to have
>been killed (during the Aiel War) by someone who resembled his wife --
>probably her son from her former life. From here it is not too great a leap to
>suppose that this person was Tam al'Thor, and that he found Rand shortly after
>and adopted him. (This may be corroborated by Tam's account, if any, of where/
>how he found Rand -- I haven't been able to find that in the books, if anyone
>can tell me where it is I'll be grateful.)
This just doesn't wash at all.
Standard theory is that Rand's father Janduin was killed by
someone who resembled his wife, Shaiel. The timing is
sufficiently precise to indicate that Shaiel was Tigraine of
Andor, who disappeared shortly after her brother Luc vanished
into the Blight. The man resembling Shaiel (Tigraine) would then
have been Luc, her brother, possibly 'possessed' by Isam.
The specific holes I have with your theory about Tam is that
Shaiel, though a wetlander, was noted to bear resemblance to the
Aiel. (It is also noted that the royal lines of Andor resemble
the Aiel in color and cast as well.) Shaiel's husband was killed
by a man resembling her _very_ closely-- ie, another man who
looked much like an Aiel. Does Tam look like an Aiel? No. Did
he ever? Probably not, else Rand's red hair and grey eyes
wouldn't have drawn so much attention.
(All of this, I might add, is probably buried in the FAQ
somewhere.)
--
John S. Novak, III
dark...@camelot.bradley.edu
dark...@cegt201.bradley.edu
David DeLaney
>by...@sphinx.phys.Virginia.EDU (Chris Byler) writes:
>>Tam al'Thor is Rand's half brother.
nope - see below.
[munch]
>>His descent on his mother's side, according to this theory, is from Rand's
>>mother, Shaiel, who was a wetlander before she became a Maiden. In tSR (sorry,
>>no page numbers available) it is stated that she left behind a child she loved
>>and a husband she didn't. A few pages later, Rand's father is said to have
>>been killed (during the Aiel War) by someone who resembled his wife --
>>probably her son from her former life. From here it is not too great a leap to
>>suppose that this person was Tam al'Thor, and that he found Rand shortly after
>>and adopted him. (This may be corroborated by Tam's account, if any, of where/
>>how he found Rand -- I haven't been able to find that in the books, if anyone
>>can tell me where it is I'll be grateful.)
>This just doesn't wash at all.
>Standard theory is that Rand's father Janduin was killed by
>someone who resembled his wife, Shaiel. The timing is
>sufficiently precise to indicate that Shaiel was Tigraine of
>Andor, who disappeared shortly after her brother Luc vanished
>into the Blight. The man resembling Shaiel (Tigraine) would then
>have been Luc, her brother, possibly 'possessed' by Isam.
(*possibly*?)
>The specific holes I have with your theory about Tam is that
>Shaiel, though a wetlander, was noted to bear resemblance to the
>Aiel. (It is also noted that the royal lines of Andor resemble
>the Aiel in color and cast as well.) Shaiel's husband was killed
>by a man resembling her _very_ closely-- ie, another man who
>looked much like an Aiel. Does Tam look like an Aiel? No. Did
>he ever? Probably not, else Rand's red hair and grey eyes
>wouldn't have drawn so much attention.
>(All of this, I might add, is probably buried in the FAQ
>somewhere.)
No, it's not "buried" at all: it comprises section 2.0, where we also find out
that the son left behind should be Galad, who is Rand's half-brother, and
that Moiraine is Galad's half-aunt, and that Gawyn and Elaine are also Galad's
half-siblings through Tairingail, *and* related to Rand through Morgase
(the diagram's a bit difficult to puzzle out here) (and Elayne [and/or Gawyn]
may actually have Thom for a father, in which case Elayne's insistence that
Galad is not her brother would in fact be true - an early sign of the spark of
channeling?). Morgaine is not blood-related to Rand, though (at least not in
these links), although Galad, Gawyn, Elayne, Morgase, Tigraine, and Luc are,
and (given the Two Rivers' degree of isolation) Nynaeve and Egwene undoubtedly
are as well, in some fashion (q.v. the Congars and the Coplins, intermarried
beyond recognition). Rand is also unrelated to King Laman (of the
Avendesora-sin), who is in this by virtue of being Morgaine's uncle. This is
actually a pretty good representation of the typical tangledness of royal
families... for real-life examples, look at the European dynasties, where
*every* royal family is intimately related to every other one. Comes from the
usual "princes must marry princesses" outlook on life - after a bit, there just
aren't enough unrelated princes/princesses *left* to marry...
I'll forward a FAQ copy to Chris.
Incidentally, there's a new Jordan book out...
but it's by Michael Jordan. Oh well.
Dave "rereading Jordan; on Fires of Heaven" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: dbd@(utkux.utcc | panacea.phys | enigma.phys).utk.edu - collect
them all! Disclaimer: AFAIK, *nobody* speaks for U.T.Knoxville (consistently);
Thinking about this disclaimer (or about high energy theoretical particle __
physics) may cause headaches. .sig virus: Vicki Robinson v2.29; Kibo #: -0 \/
John Novak
>>into the Blight. The man resembling Shaiel (Tigraine) would then
>>have been Luc, her brother, possibly 'possessed' by Isam.
>(*possibly*?)
My main concern is the timing. Probably, by this time, he was
'possessed.'
My minor concern is the term 'possessed.' I have definite images
in my mind of people being possessed, and they usually hinge on
the idea that the original owner of the body is still alive
(mentally) somewhere or other. I'm not sure that's the case
here. Luc's essence may have died, or been destroyed, or
whatever. Or, like Fain and Mordeth, Luc and Isam may have
merged, in a more inseparable way, becoming greater than the sum
of the parts.
Edmund WONG
> In <CJ0q0...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> by...@sphinx.phys.Virginia.EDU (Chris Byler) writes:
>
> >Tam al'Thor is Rand's half brother.
>
> >First, it is fairly obvious that Tam is descended on his father's side from
> >Aemon al-Caar al'Thorin (sp), the last king of Manetheren, and this *may*
> >account for the heron-mark blade... Similarity in names goes that far at least.
>
> I believe Tam got his sword the hard way-- he probably killed its
> previous owner. The evidence points to Tam's having learned how
[minor point]
I don't think that Tam killed the previous owner of the heron-marked
blade. When he talks to Rand about it in, I think tEoW, he says
something to the effect of he payed to much for it or something like
that. Since human life is so cheap (that's too true :'( ), tho' probably
not to Tam, I always had the impression that he meant in gold or some
form of currency other than blood.
As for the theory, interesting thought, but more holes than some swiss
cheese attacked with a "hunting" (read "assault") gun.
--
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| Here lies one |=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
|edmund h. wong| whose name was writ in water |edw...@ctp.org|
|=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| |=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
Michael Macchione
>dark...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) writes:
>> In <CJ0q0...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> by...@sphinx.phys.Virginia.EDU (Chris Byler) writes:
>> I believe Tam got his sword the hard way-- he probably killed its
>> previous owner. The evidence points to Tam's having learned how
>
>blade. When he talks to Rand about it in, I think tEoW, he says
>something to the effect of he payed to much for it or something like
>that. Since human life is so cheap (that's too true :'( ), tho' probably
>not to Tam, I always had the impression that he meant in gold or some
>form of currency other than blood.
>
officer in some army. How high and which army is still up for debate.
But I really don't think that money was that big a problem. I always
thought that the price that he paid too much for was either an oppurtunity
missed or something lost (like innocence). Ie. Tam left a farm way back
when, as an innocent farmboy. He joined an army and lost his innocence by
becoming an expert swordsman. Years later he regrets his choice of career
and tries to regain his innocence by becoming a farmer in a small town, oh
say the Emonds Field... Thus the price he had to pay for the sword was
his innocence, which to me is a rather large price for a sword.
Mike
Sir MPS
Ruchira Datta
David DeLaney <d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> wrote:
>...Morgaine is not blood-related to Rand, though (at least not in
>these links), although Galad, Gawyn, Elayne, Morgase, Tigraine, and Luc are,
>and (given the Two Rivers' degree of isolation) Nynaeve and Egwene undoubtedly
>are as well, in some fashion (q.v. the Congars and the Coplins, intermarried
>beyond recognition).
Excuse me? Rand is not related to anyone in the Two Rivers, by blood.
Of course, Nynaeve and Egwene are probably related to Tam or Kari al'Thor,
and they are certainly related to Rand by ties of caring. Yes, Egwene
too. I still very much doubt she is a Darkfriend...no one answered my
question, about why Jordan would so laboriously demonstrate that she
does, after all, have a sense of ji'e'toh, if she were in fact a
Darkfriend. She is developing a very dislikeable personality, but I think
if someone she respected noticed this and confronted her about it, she
would see what was happening to herself and try to change. The problem
is that most of the people she respects are still in Emond's Field, and the
rest are too busy with their own problems to bother pondering subtle points
of Egwene's psychological makeup.
Ruchira Datta
da...@math.berkeley.edu
David Wren-Hardin
>In article <1994Jan3.0...@martha.utcc.utk.edu>,
>David DeLaney <d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> wrote:
>>...Morgaine is not blood-related to Rand, though (at least not in
>>these links), although Galad, Gawyn, Elayne, Morgase, Tigraine, and Luc are,
>>and (given the Two Rivers' degree of isolation) Nynaeve and Egwene undoubtedly
>>are as well, in some fashion (q.v. the Congars and the Coplins, intermarried
>>beyond recognition).
>
>Excuse me? Rand is not related to anyone in the Two Rivers, by blood.
>Of course, Nynaeve and Egwene are probably related to Tam or Kari al'Thor,
>and they are certainly related to Rand by ties of caring. Yes, Egwene
>too. I still very much doubt she is a Darkfriend...no one answered my
I did a double take at this statement too, but what I think the original
poster meant is that Egwene and Nynaeve are related...
[munch]
>da...@math.berkeley.edu
--
*****************************************************************************
David Wren-Hardin bd...@quads.uchicago.edu University of Chicago
Thousands of years ago the Egyptians worshipped cats as gods.
Cats have never forgotten this.
John Novak
>I don't think that Tam killed the previous owner of the heron-marked
>blade. When he talks to Rand about it in, I think tEoW, he says
>something to the effect of he payed to much for it or something like
>that. Since human life is so cheap (that's too true :'( ), tho' probably
>not to Tam, I always had the impression that he meant in gold or some
>form of currency other than blood.
I think that's the point Tam was trying to make (to the readers)
without coming straight out and and telling the young, tender,
innocent proto-Dragon, "I killed someone for it."
"It cost too much" certainly implies to me that Tam killed
someone for it, especially in light of how other people treat
Rand-- ie, if they think he 'inherited' it, they try to take it
away from him. Swords like that have a way of filtering upward
into the most skilled hands available.
Allie Davidson
In article <2g7hg8$2...@cegt201.bradley.edu> dark...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) writes:
>In <CJ0q0...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> by...@sphinx.phys.Virginia.EDU (Chris Byler) writes:
>
>>Tam al'Thor is Rand's half brother.
>
>>First, it is fairly obvious that Tam is descended on his father's side from
>>Aemon al-Caar al'Thorin (sp), the last king of Manetheren, and this *may*
>>account for the heron-mark blade... Similarity in names goes that far at least.
>
>I believe Tam got his sword the hard way-- he probably killed its
>previous owner. The evidence points to Tam's having learned how
>to use his sword quite well. He is described as having a fluid
>grace very similar to a warder in tSR. He is noted somewhere as
>having rising to a high posting in Illian during his travels.
>Something like the Second Captain of the King's Companions, or
>something like that.
>
I believe that Tam al'Thor is Jain Farstrider. This suspicion sparked
when closely looking over the timeline. Why does Tam al'Thor have a
Heron marked blade? What was he *doing* on the slopes of Dragon Mount
when Rand was born? Tam is certainly the correct age for Jain Farstrider
and the appearance of the Trollocs and Fades didn't rattle him much. It
seems as though he has faced them before. Jain Farstrider simply disappeared,
how better to disappear then to be a *simple* farmer in a backwash town
named Two Rivers.
-Allie
--
==============================================================================
all...@sco.com # Keep roads clean. Contribute your charitable
Geek by trade, # dollars to S.P.L.A.T. (Society for Prevention of Little
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David DeLaney
>David DeLaney <d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> wrote:
>>...Morgaine is not blood-related to Rand, though (at least not in
>>these links), although Galad, Gawyn, Elayne, Morgase, Tigraine, and Luc are,
>>and (given the Two Rivers' degree of isolation) Nynaeve and Egwene undoubtedly
>>are as well, in some fashion (q.v. the Congars and the Coplins, intermarried
>>beyond recognition).
>Excuse me? Rand is not related to anyone in the Two Rivers, by blood.
>Of course, Nynaeve and Egwene are probably related to Tam or Kari al'Thor,
>and they are certainly related to Rand by ties of caring.
ooo, smack me little pinkies... Right, right - I got carried away there for
a second - confused my ta'veren. Can we postulate, though, that Mat and
Perrin's families are undoubtedly highly intertwined over the last 1000 years
or so with Nynaeve and Egwene's? Also, at the same level of remoteness, the
royal line of Manetheren was almost certainly intermingled with that of
Andor... and given that Two Rivers conserved the Old Blood rather well, while
Andor's line stayed royalty, they're probably still more closely related to
Rand than they otherwise might be considered to be...
Dave "making up for the error" DeLaney
Morgyn
I'd guess that, as a young man, Tam longed for adventure and left
Emond's field to find it. As I recall, at some point it was mentioned that
he "returned to Emond's Field with Kari and [Rand]".
While gone, he learned to use a sword-well enough to earn the heron-marked
blade. [No opinion ventured as to his position, I simply don't remember
reading about this.] I don't believe he killed someone for that sword,
although he may have commissioned it once attaining Blademaster status.
He returned to Emond's Field after the Aiel War, where he saw so much
killing that he grew sick of it. In tEotW, during his fever, he kept
raving about how ugly the battle was were he found Rand.
He kept the sword because it meant something to him--the hours he'd put
in to mastering it. He kept it hidden, I think, because he also didn't
want to be reminded of the use he'd put it to. Perhaps he'd killed a few
Maidens? Given Rand's rejection of the idea of killing a woman, even in
defense of his life, the prohibition must be pretty ingrained in Emond's
Fielders.
And when he came back, he brought Kyrie, a woman foreign to Emond's Field,
and Rand. Someone earlier had a good post explaining the tangle of
relationships between Rand, Elayne, Galad, Gawyn and others.
Morgyn
<delurking at last>
Daniel X Pape
[chomp]
: I believe that Tam al'Thor is Jain Farstrider. This suspicion sparked
: when closely looking over the timeline. Why does Tam al'Thor have a
: Heron marked blade? What was he *doing* on the slopes of Dragon Mount
: when Rand was born? Tam is certainly the correct age for Jain Farstrider
: and the appearance of the Trollocs and Fades didn't rattle him much. It
: seems as though he has faced them before. Jain Farstrider simply disappeared,
: how better to disappear then to be a *simple* farmer in a backwash town
: named Two Rivers.
: -Allie
[chomp]
This is a pretty interesting thought - but Tam does not seem to me to be the
type to be so full of hubris that he would be reading books about himself.
On page 59 of tEoW Rand is describing the main room of his house, and he stated
that "Tam's piperack and _The Travels of Jain Farstrider_ sat on the table."
Of course, he could have just been proofreading it for the next release...
--
Daniel Xavier Pape | (217) 244-6076 Office
Silicon Graphics Programmer |
dp...@imlab.landarch.uiuc.edu | Finger for PGP public key
John Novak
>I believe that Tam al'Thor is Jain Farstrider. This suspicion sparked
>when closely looking over the timeline. Why does Tam al'Thor have a
>Heron marked blade? What was he *doing* on the slopes of Dragon Mount
>when Rand was born? Tam is certainly the correct age for Jain Farstrider
>and the appearance of the Trollocs and Fades didn't rattle him much. It
>seems as though he has faced them before. Jain Farstrider simply disappeared,
>how better to disappear then to be a *simple* farmer in a backwash town
>named Two Rivers.
Possible, but not probable. At the very least, you need to
establish that Tam was in the Borderlands about forty years ago,
because Jain Farstrider was in the area at the time of Malkier's
Fall. He was, according to Agelmar, already a hero when Lan was
spirited away, wasn't he?
That same passage also implies that Jain Farstrider _was_
Malkieri, but it does not state it outright. If any older
Borderlanders (like, oh, say, Davram Bashere...?) meets Tam and
recognizes him, I'll believe it.
As to why Tam was where he was, he was a skilled general and
warrior. He was involved in the Aiel War.
As for why he wasn't rattled, there are any number of
explanations, the most likely of which is, "As a good warrior, he
instantly assumed the Flame and the Void when he saw them."
John Novak
>While gone, he learned to use a sword-well enough to earn the heron-marked
>blade. [No opinion ventured as to his position, I simply don't remember
>reading about this.] I don't believe he killed someone for that sword,
>although he may have commissioned it once attaining Blademaster status.
That blade was not commissioned any time in the last three
thousand years. See Lan's comments about it, I believe at the
beginning of tGH.
>He kept the sword because it meant something to him--the hours he'd put
>in to mastering it. He kept it hidden, I think, because he also didn't
>want to be reminded of the use he'd put it to. Perhaps he'd killed a few
>Maidens? Given Rand's rejection of the idea of killing a woman, even in
>defense of his life, the prohibition must be pretty ingrained in Emond's
>Fielders.
I'll buy that, though. The cruelest irony would have been if Tam
had killed Shaiel... But I suppose this is unlikely, and that
we'll probably never know.
>And when he came back, he brought Kyrie, a woman foreign to Emond's Field,
>and Rand. Someone earlier had a good post explaining the tangle of
>relationships between Rand, Elayne, Galad, Gawyn and others.
A number of tree diagrams are in the FAQ.
(Or were. They were there last I read them.)
VIJAY VENUGOPAL
>From: mor...@netcom.com (Morgyn)
>Subject: Re: Jordan: Who was Tam al'Thor REALLY?
>Date: Mon, 3 Jan 1994 23:54:42 GMT
>If I may be so bold as to offer MHO on Tam and his sword:
>I'd guess that, as a young man, Tam longed for adventure and left
>Emond's field to find it. As I recall, at some point it was mentioned that
>he "returned to Emond's Field with Kari and [Rand]".
>While gone, he learned to use a sword-well enough to earn the heron-marked
>blade. [No opinion ventured as to his position, I simply don't remember
>reading about this.] I don't believe he killed someone for that sword,
>although he may have commissioned it once attaining Blademaster status.
He can't have commissioned the sword. I forget exactly which book it
is in without looking for it but when they are in Sheinar, Lan and Rand are
practicing sword forms and Lan stops to tell Rand the history of the swords.
Ie. how during the war of the shadow the Aes Sedai made weapons with the
power that would never dull etc etc. Then he mentioned that Rand's sword
was on of those. Also when Rand went to see the Amrylin (Siaun that is) she
wants to take the sword to test it.
>He returned to Emond's Field after the Aiel War, where he saw so much
>killing that he grew sick of it. In tEotW, during his fever, he kept
>raving about how ugly the battle was were he found Rand.
>He kept the sword because it meant something to him--the hours he'd put
>in to mastering it. He kept it hidden, I think, because he also didn't
>want to be reminded of the use he'd put it to. Perhaps he'd killed a few
>Maidens? Given Rand's rejection of the idea of killing a woman, even in
>defense of his life, the prohibition must be pretty ingrained in Emond's
>Fielders.
>And when he came back, he brought Kyrie, a woman foreign to Emond's Field,
>and Rand. Someone earlier had a good post explaining the tangle of
>relationships between Rand, Elayne, Galad, Gawyn and others.
>Morgyn
><delurking at last>
Other than that, I think (as has been mentioned already) that the high price
he paid for itwas the loss of innoncence.
-Vijay
"All that is gold does not glitter"
Don Harlow
>If I may be so bold as to offer MHO on Tam and his sword:
>
>blade. [No opinion ventured as to his position, I simply don't remember
>reading about this.] I don't believe he killed someone for that sword,
>although he may have commissioned it once attaining Blademaster status.
>
for Ilian.
No, you don't commission a blade made with the One Power. That blade had,
as Lan once remarked, seen more than three thousand years of history before
it came into Tam's hands. Tam received that blade in some other fashion --
whether by taking it from a dead man, or being awarded it for his skill
and leadership in war, we have no way of knowing at this point.
>Morgyn
>
><delurking at last>
Welcome aboard!
--
Don Harlow do...@netcom.com
Mi ellitig^as c^e l'tagig^o | I rise from bed at dawn
Kaj c^e la sunsubir' ripozas; | And go to rest at sundown;
Teron mi plugas por min nutri, | I plow the earth to feed myself,
Por trinki mi mem puton fosas; | To drink, I dig my own well;
Kion mi devas danki al la suvereno! | For what have I to thank the sovereign!
-- Early (2400 B.C.) Libertarian poem...
Edmund WONG
> >I always had the impression that he meant in gold or some
> >form of currency other than blood.
Note the underlined.
> I don't buy this. General consensus is that Tam was a high ranking
> officer in some army. How high and which army is still up for debate.
> But I really don't think that money was that big a problem. I always
> thought that the price that he paid too much for was either an oppurtunity
> missed or something lost (like innocence). Ie. Tam left a farm way back
> when, as an innocent farmboy. He joined an army and lost his innocence by
> becoming an expert swordsman. Years later he regrets his choice of career
> and tries to regain his innocence by becoming a farmer in a small town, oh
> say the Emonds Field... Thus the price he had to pay for the sword was
> his innocence, which to me is a rather large price for a sword.
I agree with this current conjecture about the sword and Tam. It kind of
all depends upon how Tam views his past. I think the general thought is
one of regret; how much he laments his past deeds would determine the
exact meaning he has for his statement. If he's fairly ashamed of his
past as a soldier, then he would regret having anything from his shameful
days. If on the more extreme side Tam, feels greater shame or remorse
about his life as a soldier, then his statement would probably be about
his lost innocence. Also he seemed to be speaking about that sword
specifically, not as a symbol of a past he wished to put behind him. I
don't know; he just didn't seem all that melancholy when he told Rand
about the sword. It was more like a father telling his son about a tatoo
he got in his reckless youth, than a bitter reminder of a bloody past.
Anyway, the point of my post was mainly that he didn't necessarily kill
a person or do something violent to get the sword, though, when he talked
about price, he could mean a myriad of things.
> Mike
> Sir MPS
Bill Garrett
|>
|> I believe that Tam al'Thor is Jain Farstrider.
Oh, yes, yes, YES!!
|> Why does Tam al'Thor have a
|> Heron marked blade? What was he *doing* on the slopes of Dragon Mount
|> when Rand was born? Tam is certainly the correct age for Jain Farstrider
|> and the appearance of the Trollocs and Fades didn't rattle him much. It
|> seems as though he has faced them before.
These can all be explained by his military experience to which he and Moiraine
make vague reference. Tam became quite a swordsman and probably took
the heronmark from someone he killed -- probably somebody whom he was forced
to kill against his will. Tam says something about "buying" it for two
copper pennies, or it not being worth the two copper pennies he "paid" for
it.... perhaps the conflagration was started over a small money matter.
Perhaps the person who possessed it before him started an argument about a
bet in a card game or mistaken possession of some relatively unimportant
item... maybe Tam tried to avoid fighting about it, or perhaps he was a
hothead in his youth and helped exacerbate the conflict... words became
stronger... blades were drawn... Tam had to defend himself, and perhaps the
only way to do that was to kill the other person, intentionally or accidently.
Anyway, it's pretty clear to me that Tam did not buy the sword for cash, nor
was it a family heirloom of clan Al'Thor.
Trollocs, Fades, and the battle of Dragonmount: Tam was a soldier and an
officer. He could well have encountered Trollocs and Fades before, but even
if he hadn't, no such military person would dismiss them as myths. And why
was Tam at Dragonmount? There was a huge battle there, the Aiel having
pushed their way more than a thousand miles (?) past the Dragonwall and
launching an assault on the very walls of Tar Valon.
But please don't mistake my point here: this is all true for Tam, or at
least so Occam's razor would say, but my intuition about Jordan's story-
weaving tells me that Tam=Jain is a strong possibility. The heronmark,
Trollocs, Fades, and the battle at Dragonmount are not really evidence
of Tam being Jain Farstrider, but they would combine to make an extremely
interesting story. I still think it's a great idea!
|> Jain Farstrider simply disappeared,
|> how better to disappear then to be a *simple* farmer in a backwash town
|> named Two Rivers.
Some other things I can think of: The biggie, of course, is Jordan's
"conservation of characters" -- everyone pops up more than once, often in
different guise. And wouldn't it be classic Jordan to make this connection?
Wasn't "The Travels of Jain Farstrider" always a favorite of Tam's?
Ishamael told Rand that he had turned Jain Farstrider to serve the shadow...
maybe he said that because he wanted to tell Rand he had turned somebody
close to Rand, but then realized that Rand wouldn't understand?
Stories say little of Jain Farstrider after his disappearance, but they
also say little about where he came from. What if not only did Jain
disappear to a sleeply little farming community, but also suddenly emerge
from the obscurity of one to become the quixotic character of story?
--
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Bill Garrett University of North Carolina |
| gar...@cs.unc.edu Department of Computer Science |
*--------- This message transmitted on 100% recycled photons. ----------*
Ruchira Datta
>Allie Davidson (all...@sco.COM) wrote:
[theory that Tam al'Thor = Jain Farstrider munched]
>This is a pretty interesting thought - but Tam does not seem to me to be the
>type to be so full of hubris that he would be reading books about himself.
On the contrary, I think it would be fairly remarkable for a person *not*
to read a book about himself. It doesn't indicate any particular hubris.
It would be positively strange not to. Besides, if indeed Tam is Jain,
he could be indulging his nostalgia for what is no more...
Assuming this is true, does this make Kari al'Thor "Susa"? Tam does
certainly seem to have become "tame" since returning to the Two Rivers,
compared to fighting in the Aiel War and winning a heron-mark blade.
BTW, the ancient city of Susa was the center of Elam, in Sumeria.
Will Durant begins the Near East part of his _Our Oriental Heritage_
by attributing to this place one of the first historical civilizations.
This probably doesn't have anything to do with tWoT, except perhaps
to suggest that Jain Farstrider was tamed by a place rather than a person.
I suppose his Emond's Field roots could have tamed him, if he were Tam.
Ruchira Datta
da...@math.berkeley.edu
Joseph Shaw
> In <1994Jan03.2...@sco.com> all...@sco.COM (Allie Davidson) writes:
>
>
> Possible, but not probable. At the very least, you need to
> establish that Tam was in the Borderlands about forty years ago,
> because Jain Farstrider was in the area at the time of Malkier's
> Fall. He was, according to Agelmar, already a hero when Lan was
> spirited away, wasn't he?
We know that Tam was born and raised in the Two Rivers, left young
and returned with a wife and baby Dragon.
I believe we can safely conclude that Tam is not a borderlander,
nor is he Malkieri.
> That same passage also implies that Jain Farstrider _was_
> Malkieri, but it does not state it outright.
No, but it is stated outright someplace else:
(From the November FAQ section 2.10)
2 Author of _The Travels of Jain Farstrider_, "A very well known
book of travel stories by a noted Malkieri writer and traveler.
The book was first printed in 968 NE and has been reprinted
continuously ever since. ... disappeared shortly after the Aiel
War and is generally believed to be dead."
<TDR: Glossary entry "_Travels of Jaim[sic] Farstrider, The_", 696, 593>
Farstrider was Malkieri, Tam isn't.
- Joe
--
Joseph Shaw | This _is_ my hobby! | Delete this sig when quoting!!
GTA/Grad. Student +---------------------+--------------------------------
Computer Science | "For they shall suck of the abundance of the
Virginia Tech | net and of the treasure hid in the hosts..."
David Wren-Hardin
>
>In article <2g7hg8$2...@cegt201.bradley.edu> dark...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) writes:
>>In <CJ0q0...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> by...@sphinx.phys.Virginia.EDU (Chris Byler) writes:
>>
>>>Tam al'Thor is Rand's half brother.
>>
>>>First, it is fairly obvious that Tam is descended on his father's side from
>>>Aemon al-Caar al'Thorin (sp), the last king of Manetheren, and this *may*
>>>account for the heron-mark blade... Similarity in names goes that far at least.
>>
>>I believe Tam got his sword the hard way-- he probably killed its
>>previous owner. The evidence points to Tam's having learned how
>>to use his sword quite well. He is described as having a fluid
>>grace very similar to a warder in tSR. He is noted somewhere as
>>having rising to a high posting in Illian during his travels.
>>Something like the Second Captain of the King's Companions, or
>>something like that.
>>
>
>I believe that Tam al'Thor is Jain Farstrider. This suspicion sparked
>when closely looking over the timeline. Why does Tam al'Thor have a
>Heron marked blade? What was he *doing* on the slopes of Dragon Mount
>when Rand was born? Tam is certainly the correct age for Jain Farstrider
>and the appearance of the Trollocs and Fades didn't rattle him much. It
>seems as though he has faced them before. Jain Farstrider simply disappeared,
>how better to disappear then to be a *simple* farmer in a backwash town
>named Two Rivers.
The only problem with this is that I believe Ishamael says that he captured
Mr. Farstrider then released him, and that the Ogier found him. This would
have occured in Rand's lifetime, I think, so Tam can't be Jain.
>
>-Allie
>--
>
>==============================================================================
>all...@sco.com # Keep roads clean. Contribute your charitable
>Geek by trade, # dollars to S.P.L.A.T. (Society for Prevention of Little
>artist at heart # Animal Tragedies).
>==============================================================================
Morgyn
I still think it highly unlikely that _Tam_ would kill someone to possess
that sword. If, as has been speculated elsewhere, he was indeed a high-
ranking commander of some force, I would then venture to guess that it
was presented to him, either as an award for having achieved Blademaster
status or later as a reward for something he did.
As to loss of innocence, I have no disagreement there. He had to have
spent a lot of time and effort to learn to use a sword that well, and
performing the exercises is beautiful. But the only use of that skill
is to kill, and I would think that he would eventually sicken of that, as he
evidently did.
Morgyn
John Novak
>I still think it highly unlikely that _Tam_ would kill someone to possess
>that sword. If, as has been speculated elsewhere, he was indeed a high-
>ranking commander of some force, I would then venture to guess that it
>was presented to him, either as an award for having achieved Blademaster
>status or later as a reward for something he did.
We only know Tam is he is now-- some 50 years old with a lifetime
of rich experiences behind him. We have no idea how he acted
when he was 19. He could have been a real hellion.
>As to loss of innocence, I have no disagreement there. He had to have
>spent a lot of time and effort to learn to use a sword that well, and
>performing the exercises is beautiful. But the only use of that skill
>is to kill, and I would think that he would eventually sicken of that, as he
>evidently did.
At the very least, he probably had to kill someone who challenged
him for it.
Loren Miller
>Anyway, the point of my post was mainly that he didn't necessarily kill
>a person or do something violent to get the sword, though, when he talked
>about price, he could mean a myriad of things.
I forgot who mentioned the "price" of "two coppers" that Tam paid for the
sword, but if this is in the books then it's pretty clear proof that Tam
killed someone for the sword. Traditionally, you put two pennies on the eyes
of a dead person so they have money to pay Charon, the ferryman of the dead.
If Tam paid two coppers for the sword, and it was too high a price, then he
must have killed someone for it, and this must have someone whom he
particularly minded killing.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller LO...@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
Into the flood again, same old trip it was back when
Ivis Reed Bohlen
lo...@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>I forgot who mentioned the "price" of "two coppers" that Tam paid for
the
>sword, but if this is in the books then it's pretty clear proof that Tam
>killed someone for the sword. Traditionally, you put two pennies on the
eyes
>of a dead person so they have money to pay Charon, the ferryman of the
dead.
>If Tam paid two coppers for the sword, and it was too high a price, then
he
>must have killed someone for it, and this must have someone whom he
>particularly minded killing.
ooooh, y'all are *good*! Tam says it to Rand when he gets the sword out
in tEotW.
Ivis Reed Bohlen
irbo...@med.unc.edu
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
*opinions mine*
David DeLaney
>> >I believe that Tam al'Thor is Jain Farstrider. [...]
>> Possible, but not probable. At the very least, you need to
>I'll go further: Impossible.
I'll go back: Not Impossible.
>> establish that Tam was in the Borderlands about forty years ago,
>> because Jain Farstrider was in the area at the time of Malkier's
>> Fall. He was, according to Agelmar, already a hero when Lan was
>> spirited away, wasn't he?
>We know that Tam was born and raised in the Two Rivers, left young
>and returned with a wife and baby Dragon.
>I believe we can safely conclude that Tam is not a borderlander,
>nor is he Malkieri.
Not while in the Two Rivers area, at least. He may have been *described* as
Malkieri while living in the area by someone who didn't know his origin;
given that he kept his past secret in Emond's Field so well after he came
back, we can say he probably had some practice at it while in the outer
world, and was inclined to do so.
>> That same passage also implies that Jain Farstrider _was_
>> Malkieri, but it does not state it outright.
>No, but it is stated outright someplace else:
>(From the November FAQ section 2.10)
> 2 Author of _The Travels of Jain Farstrider_, "A very well known
> book of travel stories by a noted Malkieri writer and traveler.
> The book was first printed in 968 NE and has been reprinted
> continuously ever since. ... disappeared shortly after the Aiel
> War and is generally believed to be dead."
> <TDR: Glossary entry "_Travels of Jaim[sic] Farstrider, The_", 696, 593>
>Farstrider was Malkieri, Tam isn't.
Even this doesn't say Farstrider was *born* Malkieri. He could quite well
have *become* known as Malkieri *after* becoming famous; Isaac Asimov was
born in Russia, for example, and immigrated at 5 or so - does this make him
Russia's most prolific SF writer? C'mon, people can't even spell Farstrider's
*name* consistently... The entry immediately after it:
3 From Agelmar's story of Lan's life: "...young Jain Charin -
already called Jain Farstrider" captured Cowin Fairheart and
returned him to the Seven Towers."
<TEotW: 47, 710, More Tales of the Wheel>
only really says his name before "Farstrider" was "Charin". Tam could very well
have adopted a false identity to hide his rural past when dealing with big-city
people. The timeline is vague, but has the book published four years *after*
Tam leaves; there's probably enough leeway for six-ten, actually. A *lot*
can happen in that time... the timing doesn't *not* fit.
So I'd say it's possible that Tam left the Two Rivers, called himself Jain
Charin, went to Malkieri, had adventures, rose in rank, got a nickname, got
a book published about him (with regular updates), found a certain naturalized-
Shieldmaiden and son, and "mysteriously vanished" soon after back to the Two
Rivers area.
Dave "supporting evidence?" DeLaney
Edmund WONG
> I forgot who mentioned the "price" of "two coppers" that Tam paid for the
> sword, but if this is in the books then it's pretty clear proof that Tam
> killed someone for the sword. Traditionally, you put two pennies on the eyes
> of a dead person so they have money to pay Charon, the ferryman of the dead.
Now that's an interesting theory. We all know how Jordan likes to pull
bits and pieces form just about everything...
> If Tam paid two coppers for the sword, and it was too high a price, then he
> must have killed someone for it, and this must have someone whom he
> particularly minded killing.
My only quibble is that if Tam regretted killing the person, why did he
take the sword? If it's a straight up duel for a weapon, then he should
have no qualms about taking the spoils of a dead man. If it's instead
from a fight with someone whom you did not want to fight, you'd leave the
sword behind or give it to someone else. Of course, Tam's feelings all
could be in hindsight or retrospect. He regrets what he did then, when
he did not care so much about life as a youth. Or possibly, all of the
slaughter in the Aiel War made him sick of his lifestyle and come back
home to be a good ol' farmer with only the heron-marked blade as a
reminder of his bloody past.
> Loren Miller LO...@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
> Into the flood again, same old trip it was back when
--
Joseph Shaw
[Tam = Farstrider? The debate goes on.]
I said:
> >I believe we can safely conclude that Tam is not a borderlander,
> >nor is he Malkieri.
> Not while in the Two Rivers area, at least. He may have been *described* as
> Malkieri while living in the area by someone who didn't know his origin;
[Farstrider is considered a Malkieri]
> Even this doesn't say Farstrider was *born* Malkieri. He could quite well
> have *become* known as Malkieri *after* becoming famous;
Combined with the Borderlands custom quoted below, I guess that the people
in the Borderlands at least would consider Farstrider Malkieri if he settled
there, even if he really wasn't.
Lan to Rand <TGH ch1 pbp. 4>: "If a man has the raising of a child,
that child is his, and none can say different."
[theory deleted by pressing the '.' key too long in vi - oops]
[Summary: possible scenario of Rand leaving the Two Rivers, going to
Malkier and returning to the Two Rivers.]
Is there enough time for Tam to leave the Two Rivers, go to Malkier, call
himself Jain Charon, go striding all around RandLand, travel to Shara,
stopping by Caemlyn to court Kari (Susa, then?), go to Illian, join the
Illianer army, rise to Second Captain, fight Two Wars with Tear and the
Whitecloak War, return to Caemlyn and marry Kari (now that he has a steady
job in Illian instead of striding about the globe), go to Dragonmount, find
Rand, drop him off with Kari, return to the Borderlands to travel into the
Blight (perhaps to Shayol Ghul), 'disappear' as Farstrider, and then
return to the Two Rivers to settle down? Sounds like an awful lot for
one man to do.
Question: Do we have any idea how long Tam was gone from the Two Rivers?
Another angle: Shouldn't Farstrider have seen Trollocs at some point in
his life? Tam never saw a Trolloc until Winternight.
Silly objection: But Elyas is Farstrider!
- Joe
PS: I do like your theory on the Nine Rods of Dominion - unless they
were golf clubs, of course!
John Novak
>Not while in the Two Rivers area, at least. He may have been *described* as
>Malkieri while living in the area by someone who didn't know his origin;
>given that he kept his past secret in Emond's Field so well after he came
>back, we can say he probably had some practice at it while in the outer
>world, and was inclined to do so.
And I repeat, possible, but not bloody likely.
If Tam had wandered around in Malkier before the Fall, then
describing him as Malkieri would indicate either that he _looked_
Malkieri, or that the Malkieri lied about it.
And as no one _ever_ so much as blinks in the direction of
comparing Tam to Lan or to Isam, he probably doesn't look
Malkieri. He is never described as looking like Lan either, in
that Lan's faces is angular and sculpted out of stony planes.
Any why would the Malkieri lie about it? And why would Jain lie
about it in his memoirs?
Thin. Really, really thin.
>Even this doesn't say Farstrider was *born* Malkieri. He could quite well
>have *become* known as Malkieri *after* becoming famous; Isaac Asimov was
>born in Russia, for example, and immigrated at 5 or so - does this make him
>Russia's most prolific SF writer? C'mon, people can't even spell Farstrider's
>*name* consistently... The entry immediately after it:
We're dealing with a _completely_ different culture. In this day
and age, when you naturalize your American, you are legally
American. In a society like Randland's, when you emigrate
somewhere, your country of origin becomes an idetifier. "Need a
good cobbler? Go see Noran the Taraboner, down the street. One
of the best cobblers in Andor!"
> 3 From Agelmar's story of Lan's life: "...young Jain Charin -
> already called Jain Farstrider" captured Cowin Fairheart and
> returned him to the Seven Towers."
> <TEotW: 47, 710, More Tales of the Wheel>
And, of course, such accepted naturalization takes a lot of time
and trust. Note that the expression is 'young' Jain Charin.
>So I'd say it's possible that Tam left the Two Rivers, called himself Jain
>Charin, went to Malkieri, had adventures, rose in rank, got a nickname, got
>a book published about him (with regular updates), found a certain naturalized-
>Shieldmaiden and son, and "mysteriously vanished" soon after back to the Two
>Rivers area.
Its vaguely possible.
But its still really, really thin.
Its certainly not hinted at, in any way.
Incidentally, are you claiming that Tam could have become known
as Jain Farstrider _after_ he rose to the post of Second Captain
of the Compaions of Ilian, or _before_ it?
If after, that's a _lot_ of travel, adventure, and
book-publishing (not to mention gaining acceptance as a hero by
nations hundreds, if not a thousand, leagues apart.)
If before, how'd the Ilianers manage to not recognize the world
famous Jain Farstrider?
And how did the Aes Sedai, who obviously knew of both, utterly
fail to connect the two?
David DeLaney
>d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>[Farstrider is considered a Malkieri]
>> Even this doesn't say Farstrider was *born* Malkieri. He could quite well
>> have *become* known as Malkieri *after* becoming famous;
>Combined with the Borderlands custom quoted below, I guess that the people
>in the Borderlands at least would consider Farstrider Malkieri if he settled
>there, even if he really wasn't.
>Lan to Rand <TGH ch1 pbp. 4>: "If a man has the raising of a child,
>that child is his, and none can say different."
*good* point. I hadn't thought to relate this to that.
>[theory deleted by pressing the '.' key too long in vi - oops]
s'okay - I can always make more.
>[Summary: possible scenario of Rand leaving the Two Rivers, going to
>Malkier and returning to the Two Rivers.]
>Is there enough time for Tam to leave the Two Rivers, go to Malkier, call
>himself Jain Charon, go striding all around RandLand, travel to Shara,
>stopping by Caemlyn to court Kari (Susa, then?), go to Illian, join the
>Illianer army, rise to Second Captain, fight Two Wars with Tear and the
>Whitecloak War, return to Caemlyn and marry Kari (now that he has a steady
>job in Illian instead of striding about the globe), go to Dragonmount, find
>Rand, drop him off with Kari, return to the Borderlands to travel into the
>Blight (perhaps to Shayol Ghul), 'disappear' as Farstrider, and then
>return to the Two Rivers to settle down? Sounds like an awful lot for
>one man to do.
Quite possibly; after all, we've been only a few years (if that) in these
books and already Nynaeve, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, and Rand, from the same place,
have been all over the map. Granted they used the Ways and Portal Stones often,
but N. & E. at least have done most of it honestly. Also, he could be doing
some things concurrently (mainly Jain-stuff and army-stuff):
leave Emond's Field & adopt false name "Jain Charin" (these two are probably
about simultaneous)
(Timeline: ~ now - 30; if Tam is fiftyish now, he'd be late-teens then; he
might've left as soon as he could shake the dust of the Two Rivers off his
heels...)
go to Malkier
start new life as Malkieran; journey from Emond's Field gives him
nickname "Farstrider", and reason for it fades
capture Cowin Fairheart & return him to 7 towers - whee, adventure! say, this
is fun, let's join the *army*! (But not here, that Blight stuff is *nasty*...)
travel towards Illian, adventuring on the way, and starting to earn "Farstrider"
(one who travels *really far* and [prob.] *really fast*)
[I don't know where to fit Shara in 'cuz it's not on the map I've got.]
stop by Caemlyn on way & court Susa (who *may* not have changed her name to
Kari, if she's Kari, until *much* later, both from going back to Emond's
Field and from book-fame fallout), and get "tamed"; marry her if she's
Kari, maybe (in which case she comes along for the ride)
(Timeline: book comes out ~ now - 26, with revisions at intervals afterward,
indicating Jain must still be Farstriding)
finish travelling to Illian, join army (as Jain? don't know - *Illianers*
wouldn't know Jain by reputation - yet)
rise to Second Captain *while* fighting two wars with Tear *and* the Whitecloak
War (rapid promotions in wartime, plus natural skill) *and* getting in a good
deal more Farstriding; note: war and adventures go together like Spot and Kibo
...
travel *back* towards Malkieri/Shienar when the Aiel cross the Dragonwall,
Cairhien is sacked, and Cairhien calls desperately for help from *anybody*
nearby, which includes Illian, Andor, Tear, Murandy, Shienar, and the Aes
Sedai... (note *more* Farstriding and way kool adventures - fighting Aiel!
Gee whiz, Jain!)
(Timeline: ~ now - 19 or so)
*if* Susa is Kari, pick her up on the way and marry her if he hasn't already;
if not, bring Kari along if he's already got her
find Rand and faux-Shieldmaiden on Dragonmount in the midst of the fighting.
(Timeline: ~ now - 18 or so)
If Susa is Kari, drop Rand off with her; in any case, realize "I've got a son
now, I can't keep this adventuring stuff up; let's retire to obscurity after
throwing people off the track with a blaze of glory, because they won't stop
pestering Jain for autographs unless he's *spectacularly* dead"
Find Kari at this point if he hasn't already, or maybe while journeying back
along the unfamiliar route
Farstride north *from* Tar Valon (or closer even), maybe dropping Kari and
Rand off in Malkieri/Shienar temporarily, disappear into Blight and legendry,
sneak back out and back through the *northern* route, stopping at an Ogier
stedding along the way (where Kari and Rand were stashed for safety?) to
match Ba'alzamon's rendition, and down the Arinelle to Emond's Field with
Kari and Rand in tow (everybody along the *southern* route, and the Tar Valon
or Caemlyn *middle* routes, would be after him for autographs in a flash).
[Either that or went down the *back* of the Spine of the World to Stedding
Shangtai, becoming the mysterious visitor (who didn't have a wife and kid
with him?) and sneaking thru Tear & Illian? no no no.]
Arrive back at Emond's Field with Rand (still very young, but I don't remember
*how* young).
If Susa is *not* Kari, Kari can come in at just about any point after the stop
in Caemlyn. I have no idea where the heronmark sword fits in best, either.
Possibly Susa's current boyfriend objected, "Jain" killed him in a wild duel,
and was overcome by regret, which caused her to marry him/break up with him
for good (depending on if Susa ==/!== Kari)?
None of that timeline seems overcrowded except the last part, when he/they
would probably have been moving *very* fast and undercover anyway. The whole
deal's spread over 12 years or so; where were *you* 12 years ago? What all
have you done since then? None of the trips seem overly cramped either, except
again the last one. Lotsa question marks - but that's par for the course here
at Wheel of Misfortune...
>Question: Do we have any idea how long Tam was gone from the Two Rivers?
Some; see above. About 12 years or so.
>Another angle: Shouldn't Farstrider have seen Trollocs at some point in
>his life? Tam never saw a Trolloc until Winternight.
I don't recall the passage; he *may* have forgotten over 20-some years, what
with all his other adventures to forget and suppress...
>Silly objection: But Elyas is Farstrider!
Silly answer: No, no, I'd know 'cuz *I'm* Elyas!
>PS: I do like your theory on the Nine Rods of Dominion - unless they
>were golf clubs, of course!
I can see it now: the 7-Iron of Blasting...
Dave "walls of theory" DeLaney
David DeLaney
>d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>>Not while in the Two Rivers area, at least. He may have been *described* as
>>Malkieri while living in the area by someone who didn't know his origin;
>>given that he kept his past secret in Emond's Field so well after he came
>>back, we can say he probably had some practice at it while in the outer
>>world, and was inclined to do so.
>And I repeat, possible, but not bloody likely.
>If Tam had wandered around in Malkier before the Fall, then
>describing him as Malkieri would indicate either that he _looked_
>Malkieri, or that the Malkieri lied about it.
It doesn't *say* he *looks* Malkieri - he's just said to be "Malkieri", which
can very well mean a) he lived there at one point (see below) b) Malkieri
published the book (!) c) Malkieri hogged the credit ("Yeah, he's Malkieri;
so'm I - wanna see my scars? C'mon up to my room...") And see below.
>And as no one _ever_ so much as blinks in the direction of
>comparing Tam to Lan or to Isam, he probably doesn't look
>Malkieri. He is never described as looking like Lan either, in
>that Lan's faces is angular and sculpted out of stony planes.
Agreed. (*Do*/*did* [since they're mainly dead] all Malkieri look alike in
the same way Aiel (e.g.) do? Preferred hair color/eye color mentioned anywhere?)
>Any why would the Malkieri lie about it? And why would Jain lie
>about it in his memoirs?
Because he's *deliberately* hiding his past, or because Emond's field was
*boring* and it got edited out ("Chapter One. I ran away from home at seventeen
to seek my fortune. While on the first of my many journeys, to Malkieri, where
I later became famous, I...") And see above.
>>Even this doesn't say Farstrider was *born* Malkieri. He could quite well
>>have *become* known as Malkieri *after* becoming famous; Isaac Asimov was
>>born in Russia, for example, and immigrated at 5 or so - does this make him
>>Russia's most prolific SF writer? C'mon, people can't even spell Farstrider's
>>*name* consistently... The entry immediately after it:
>We're dealing with a _completely_ different culture. In this day
>and age, when you naturalize your American, you are legally
>American. In a society like Randland's, when you emigrate
>somewhere, your country of origin becomes an idetifier. "Need a
>good cobbler? Go see Noran the Taraboner, down the street. One
>of the best cobblers in Andor!"
And *no-one* has ever heard of the Two Rivers, Emond's Field, *or* Tairen Ferry.
So he says "Malkieri" to avoid explaining for fifteen minutes each time ("No,
further south; you know where the river *two* south of Baerlon is?"); *he*
didn't know he was from Andor, probably, until *after* he got to Malkieri...
The *Shienarans* recognize Manetheren, sure, but the Emond's Fielders don't
(as proved conclusively by Moiraine very early on).
>> 3 From Agelmar's story of Lan's life: "...young Jain Charin -
>> already called Jain Farstrider" captured Cowin Fairheart and
>> returned him to the Seven Towers."
>> <TEotW: 47, 710, More Tales of the Wheel>
>And, of course, such accepted naturalization takes a lot of time
>and trust. Note that the expression is 'young' Jain Charin.
They called him "Farstrider" because he was from West Bumfuck all the way over
by the Misty Mountains, okay? He's young, yeah; "ran away" *definitely* before
twenty, if he's fiftyish now (thirty years later). Didn't take all *that* long
to get to Malkieri - about twice as far as Caemlyn, which Our Heroes reached
by the end of book one...
>>So I'd say it's possible that Tam left the Two Rivers, called himself Jain
>>Charin, went to Malkieri, had adventures, rose in rank, got a nickname, got
>>a book published about him (with regular updates), found a certain naturalized-
>>Shieldmaiden and son, and "mysteriously vanished" soon after back to the Two
>>Rivers area.
>Its vaguely possible.
>But its still really, really thin.
>Its certainly not hinted at, in any way.
It's *hinted* at in several places - but not much more than that.
>Incidentally, are you claiming that Tam could have become known
>as Jain Farstrider _after_ he rose to the post of Second Captain
>of the Compaions of Ilian, or _before_ it?
Before, definitely. I theorize he went to Malkieri *first* (this would also
help the Malkieri reputation, as that's where Jain "appeared"); see other post.
>If before, how'd the Ilianers manage to not recognize the world
>famous Jain Farstrider?
Because he wasn't world-famous then, and the book wasn't out yet (see other post
for timeline, I'm not gonna waste bandwidth). He got world-famous *while* in
Illian.
>And how did the Aes Sedai, who obviously knew of both, utterly
>fail to connect the two?
No idea. Where do they utterly fail to do this? (I'm not flaming, just asking.)
There's something Moiraine didn't tell Rand, maybe? This amazes you? Verin
doesn't mention it, nor any Black Ajah? They didn't say anything when he
appeared twenty years later at the Tower with thirty years' worth of aging
(sheep can be wearying) on his face, with the Tower having gone through events
momentous enough to take care of five Blue Amyrlins and a Red one? Surprise...
Dave "wall of theory" DeLaney
Chad C. D'Amour Orzel
David DeLaney <d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> wrote:
>joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu (Joseph Shaw) writes:
>>dark...@cegt201.bradley.edu (John Novak) writes:
>>> all...@sco.COM (Allie Davidson) writes:
>>> >I believe that Tam al'Thor is Jain Farstrider. [...]
>>> Possible, but not probable. At the very least, you need to
>>I'll go further: Impossible.
>
>I'll go back: Not Impossible.
>
>So I'd say it's possible that Tam left the Two Rivers, called himself Jain
>Charin, went to Malkieri, had adventures, rose in rank, got a nickname, got
>a book published about him (with regular updates), found a certain naturalized-
>Shieldmaiden and son, and "mysteriously vanished" soon after back to the Two
>Rivers area.
>
Look, you're all forgetting something here: Moiraine's story of Tam's past.
She says that "Tam Al'Thor" left the Two Rivers, went to Ilian, and became
a blademaster, and an officer of indeterminate rank (Second Captain of the
Companions- we still don't know what that exactly means...).
So clearly, he spent a significant amount of time in the Ilian area- long
enough to become a blademaster, and rise through the ranks of the Ilianer
army to become "Second Captain" of a fairly elite group (we assume). These
events would have a time scale of _years_- long enough to account for his
entire time away from the Two Rivers, without having him mucking about in
the affairs of the Borderlands.
Also, I don't recall exactly, but Moiraine's description of these events
seems to suggest that Tam was using his own name- i.e. that he was known
in Ilian as "Tam Al'Thor", and not under some alias.
Anyway, he goes to Tar Valon with the Ilianer army during the Aiel War,
gets disgusted with the wholesale slaughter there, finds Rand on the slopes
of Dragonmount, quits, and goes back to the TR with Kari, an infant son,
and a heron-mark sword as a reminder of his past. End of history.
Tam does not need to be some third party of historical significance. His
role as Rand's adoptive father is more important than anything "Jain
Farstrider" ever did.
So lay off the poor guy. He's had a tough life, and all he wants to do is
herd sheep, for Chrissakes....
Later,
OilCan
David Wren-Hardin
My quibble with this is why there was no reaction from Lan or Tam when they
saw each other ? Maybe Lan wouldn't recognize Tam, but I bet Tam would
recognize Lan.
I don't buy it as I posted earlier because Ishy says he captured Jain...
IMO, Tam has never been to Shayol Ghul.
>
>Dave "supporting evidence?" DeLaney
>--
>David DeLaney: dbd@(utkux.utcc | panacea.phys | enigma.phys).utk.edu - collect
>them all! Disclaimer: AFAIK, *nobody* speaks for U.T.Knoxville (consistently);
>Thinking about this disclaimer (or about high energy theoretical particle __
>physics) may cause headaches. .sig virus: Vicki Robinson v2.29; Kibo #: -0 \/
Joe Morris
>In a recent article edw...@eis.calstate.edu (Edmund WONG) writes:
>>Anyway, the point of my post was mainly that he didn't necessarily kill
>>a person or do something violent to get the sword, though, when he talked
>>about price, he could mean a myriad of things.
>I forgot who mentioned the "price" of "two coppers" that Tam paid for the
>sword, but if this is in the books then it's pretty clear proof that Tam
>killed someone for the sword. Traditionally, you put two pennies on the eyes
>of a dead person so they have money to pay Charon, the ferryman of the dead.
>If Tam paid two coppers for the sword, and it was too high a price, then he
>must have killed someone for it, and this must have someone whom he
>particularly minded killing.
A slightly different view: we know that Tam became a well-known and
respected military leader ("Second Captain"), as well as an excellent
swordsman. The heron blade could easily have been presented to him
as a result of his military service, in which he found the killing
to be repugnant. The reference to a price of "two coppers" could come
from Tam's association of the heron-marked blade to the deaths he caused,
and don't necessarily mean that he killed the previous owner.
But to muddy the waters, did anyone notice the similarity in the names
of Charon in the above quoted posting and the earlier name of
Jain Farstrider ("Jain Charin")?
Joe Morris / MITRE
Joseph Shaw
[Huge timeline deleted.]
> I don't know where to fit Shara in 'cuz it's not on the map I've got.
Shara is one of the lands east of the Aiel Waste. Farstrider also sailed
among the Sea Folk too, but I guess you could squeeze both of them into
your timeline still. I'll grudgingly admit its possible.
> >Another angle: Shouldn't Farstrider have seen Trollocs at some point in
> >his life? Tam never saw a Trolloc until Winternight.
>
> I don't recall the passage; he *may* have forgotten over 20-some years,
> what with all his other adventures to forget and suppress...
[after the Trolloc attack on Winternight Tam says he never saw Trollocs
but talked to people who had; he knew enough to be sure what they were.]
Maybe. But if he had seen Trollocs, I think the Trolloc attack would
bring any memories flooding back like Aiel over the Dargonwall. One
might also expect to see some hints of this in Tam's fevered mumblings
while being carried to Emond's Field.
- Joe "bookcase of objections"
Ruchira Datta
Joseph Shaw <joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu> wrote:
>Is there enough time for Tam to leave the Two Rivers, go to Malkier, call
>himself Jain Charon, go striding all around RandLand, travel to Shara,
>stopping by Caemlyn to court Kari (Susa, then?), go to Illian, join the
>Illianer army, rise to Second Captain, fight Two Wars with Tear and the
>Whitecloak War, return to Caemlyn and marry Kari (now that he has a steady
>job in Illian instead of striding about the globe), go to Dragonmount, find
Shouldn't that be gallavanting about the glove? :-)
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Ruchira Datta
da...@math.berkeley.edu
Ruchira Datta
John Novak <dark...@cegt201.bradley.edu> wrote:
>And as no one _ever_ so much as blinks in the direction of
>comparing Tam to Lan or to Isam, he probably doesn't look
>Malkieri.
This is just a minor point, but very few people have seen both Tam and Isam.
Isam is only visible in Tel'arhan'rhiod; outside of it, Slayer looks like Luc.
But Isam looks almost exactly like Lan (remember when Nynaeve encountered
him?), so the point is moot.
Personally, I think this is one of the few interesting ideas to come up
lately, but I don't think it will wash.
Ruchira Datta
da...@math.berkeley.edu
Synistyr
<<Lot o stuff zapped>>
>>
>>only really says his name before "Farstrider" was "Charin".Tam could very well
>>have adopted a false identity to hide his rural past when dealing with big-city
>>people. The timeline is vague, but has the book published four years *after*
This is very possible. Remeber al the trouble Rand had when he first went
to the Borderlands, where everyone thought he was a southlander Prince
of some sort because of his name(the al' in al'Thor). But I'm sure
Moraine-Sedai had something to do with that...
>My quibble with this is why there was no reaction from Lan or Tam when they
>saw each other ? Maybe Lan wouldn't recognize Tam, but I bet Tam would
>recognize Lan.
Don't forget the Tam is one cool cucumber. He was pretty calm when the
Trollocs attacked his house wasn't he? Of course that could have been his
in-breed fighting instincts(the flame etcetera..) But in either case
we weren't privy to his thoughts.
>I don't buy it as I posted earlier because Ishy says he captured Jain...
>IMO, Tam has never been to Shayol Ghul.
Ishy's also a liar, unless you beleive everything he says....
Don
--
| Sinistyr | "What's the best way to accelerate a Macintosh? |
| dc...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca | - 9.81 m/(s)(s) |
* If My Opinions reflected that of the University of Alberta, *
* I wouldn't be paying tuition! *
Erica Liebman Sadun
Synistyr <dc...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote:
>bd...@quads.uchicago.edu (David Wren-Hardin) writes:
>
> <<Lot o stuff zapped>>
>>>
>>>only really says his name before "Farstrider" was "Charin".Tam could very well
>>>have adopted a false identity to hide his rural past when dealing with big-city
>>>people. The timeline is vague, but has the book published four years *after*
>
> This is very possible. Remeber al the trouble Rand had when he first went
>to the Borderlands, where everyone thought he was a southlander Prince
>of some sort because of his name(the al' in al'Thor). But I'm sure
>Moraine-Sedai had something to do with that...
>>I don't buy it as I posted earlier because Ishy says he captured Jain...
>>IMO, Tam has never been to Shayol Ghul.
>
> Ishy's also a liar, unless you beleive everything he says....
>
<Cleared throat>
I think its fairly obvious that the old man in Graendel's lair is
Jain/m.
Why?
1. Age is right. Who else do we know who would be way older
than Lan.
2. In company of forsaken. Remember, he was a tourist at S.G.
3. Unhappy. Well, wouldn't you be?
4. He doesn't fit in; looks out of place. Makes sense to me
that he was foistered on Graendel as a piece not to be
exploited but rather played later in the Tarmon Gaiden game.
My guess? Lan would recognize him if he saw him. Isn't it convenient
that Lan is going to Salidar. Myrelle and Nynaeve are in Salidar.
Salidar is going to be overrun by the bad Seanchin. Graendel is in
Seanchan. I wonder if Mat will end up marrying Graendel. (YUK!)
Erica
===========================ERICA SADUN================================
Grep foo whilst ye may, oh daemons of the Spring...
er...@cc.gatech.edu
======================================================================
mike thompson (telos)
: So I'd say it's possible that Tam left the Two Rivers, called himself Jain
: Charin, went to Malkieri, had adventures, rose in rank, got a nickname, got
: a book published about him (with regular updates), found a certain naturalized-
: Shieldmaiden and son, and "mysteriously vanished" soon after back to the Two
: Rivers area.
Perhaps Tam killed Rand's mother in the battle and was so
disgusted at killing a woman that he retired and raised
Rand as a pennance. It fits with Rand's inability to fight
women. It could explain why Tam put the sword away and
said the cost of a sword is too high.
--
Michael Thompson | thom...@dish.jpl.nasa.gov
Telos Systems Group | Voice: (818) 351-2341
320 N. Halstead #260 | Fax: (818) 351-1371
Pasadena, Ca. 91107 | Comments are my own
Don Harlow
>Perhaps Tam killed Rand's mother in the battle and was so
>disgusted at killing a woman that he retired and raised
>Rand as a pennance. It fits with Rand's inability to fight
>women. It could explain why Tam put the sword away and
>said the cost of a sword is too high.
>
It doesn't wash, I'm afraid. Tam, while delirious, said that he
wandered away from where he had been fighting and found Rand's
mother lying dead in the snow, with the baby almost dead of cold
next to her. It did not sound as though he had ever encountered
her before.
--
Don Harlow do...@netcom.com
Esperanto League for N.A. el...@netcom.com (800) 828-5944
Joseph Shaw
> Perhaps Tam killed Rand's mother in the battle and was so
> disgusted at killing a woman that he retired and raised
> Rand as a pennance. It fits with Rand's inability to fight
> women. It could explain why Tam put the sword away and
> said the cost of a sword is too high.
Good theory, but it doesn't match Tam's fevered ramblings while Rand
was bringing him to Emond's Field:
<TEotW: 6, 87-88, The Westwood, 73>
"... battles are always hot, even in the snow. Sweat heat. Blood heat. Only
death is cool. Slope of the mountain. ... only place didn't stink of death.
Had to get away from the smell of it ... sight of it. ... heard a baby cry.
Their women sometimes fight alongside the men, sometimes, but why they had
let her come, I don't ... gave birth there alone, before she died of her
wounds. ... covered the child with her cloak, but the wind ... blown the
cloak away. ... child, blue with the cold. Should have been dead, too. ...
crying there. Crying in the snow. I couldn'y just leave a child. ... no
children of our own. ... always knew you wanted children. I knew you'd take
it to your heart, Kari. Yes, lass. Rand is a good name. A good name."
He found the baby after his mother had died from previous wounds. Tam didn't
kill her. From the tone of the ramblings above, it seems to me that Tam's
comments about "two coppers" is just a reference to all the killing he
did with the sword, not that he killed someone for it. I think he earned
the sword the hard way in the Illianer army, where he learned the flame bit.
It also shows that Tam and Kari were married for a while before the Aiel
War - as Kari, not Susa - which doesn't help the Tam as Farstrider idea
one whit. (although I imagine 'Elyas' can pull a thoery off his walls to
cover this too.)
Chris Byler
[mega-munch]
: I think its fairly obvious that the old man in Graendel's lair is
: Jain/m.
: Why?
: 1. Age is right. Who else do we know who would be way older
: than Lan.
: 2. In company of forsaken. Remember, he was a tourist at S.G.
: 3. Unhappy. Well, wouldn't you be?
: 4. He doesn't fit in; looks out of place. Makes sense to me
: that he was foistered on Graendel as a piece not to be
: exploited but rather played later in the Tarmon Gaiden game.
: My guess? Lan would recognize him if he saw him. Isn't it convenient
: that Lan is going to Salidar. Myrelle and Nynaeve are in Salidar.
: Salidar is going to be overrun by the bad Seanchin. Graendel is in
: Seanchan. I wonder if Mat will end up marrying Graendel. (YUK!)
: Erica
: ===========================ERICA SADUN================================
: Grep foo whilst ye may, oh daemons of the Spring...
: er...@cc.gatech.edu
: ======================================================================
This was pretty much a throwaway remark in the original post, but why are you
so sure Graendal is in Seanchan? What evidence do you have for that contention?
I thought she was in Murandy, myself... process of elimination. But then I
never really considered Seanchan as a possible Forsaken location. The Seanchan,
let me remind you, are EXTREMELY obsessive about the Blood. A newcomer arriving
in their lands would be suspicious, and without a documented birth could only
at best become a power behind the throne (like Rahvin), which it is clear
Graendal is not. Furthermore, Graendal is _mareth'damane_ (sp) to the Seanchan,
and they would attempt to collar her as soon as they perceived her ability to
channel. Under no circumstances could any forsaken whatsoever become a ruler in
Seanchan. Good thing for the DO they're so anti-Rand anyway. :)
So, with this out of the way, where *is* Graendal? She is a ruler of some
nation or other. East of the Waste, perhaps? Murandy? The Borderlands? Let's
see what countries are definitely not Graendal's: Andor, Tear, Manetheren,
Ilian, Mayene (unless she's Berelain? Elayne would have seen she could
channel), Saldaea, Amadicia, Arad Doman, Tarabon (the latter two are in
anarchy), Malkier :) , the Aiel Waste. Are there any countries I have left out?
(Incidentally, the same remarks on location apply to Mesaana and Semirhage,
except that they are not necessarily rulers of nations. We know Graendal is.)
--Chris Byler--
PS. And while we're on the topic, whatever happened to Demandred (or was it
Damodred? I forget which was a forsaken, and which was just an asshole...
Wonder if that name similarity means anything. Probably not.)? Is he still
alive, and if so, where is he and what is he doing to try to kill Rand?
Joseph Shaw
[In response to Erica's assumption that Graendal is in Seanchan.]
> This was pretty much a throwaway remark in the original post, but why are you
It's not _certain_ she's in Seanchan, just probable. One of the primary
reasons s that the way the people glimpsed through the gateway were
clothed is similar to the way Seanchan servants dress.
> I thought she was in Murandy, myself... process of elimination. But then I
Murandy? Why? We should have seen something unusual in when Siuan and
Co. passed through Lugard, wouldn't we? Do you have any reason to think
she's in Murandy other than you thought you had eliminated everyplace else?
> never really considered Seanchan as a possible Forsaken location. The
> Seanchan, let me remind you, are EXTREMELY obsessive about the Blood. A
> newcomer arriving in their lands would be suspicious, and without a
> documented birth could only at best become a power behind the throne (like
> Rahvin), which it is clear Graendal is not. Furthermore, Graendal is
> _mareth'damane_ (sp) to the Seanchan, and they would attempt to collar her
> as soon as they perceived her ability to channel. Under no circumstances
> could any forsaken whatsoever become a ruler in Seanchan. Good thing for
> the DO they're so anti-Rand anyway. :)
I think you're a little too quick to ruletout Seanchan. First off, being
"of the Blood", despite likely Seanchan claims, doesn't truely mean that
person is a direct descendant of Arthur Hawkwing. People can be "raised
to the Blood." (Turak to Egeanin in TGh ch.29) I suspect that most of
the Seanchan people who are of the Blood haven't even a drop of Hawkwing's
blood in them. So it is certainly possible for Graendal to rise to power
through the ranks quickly, although it wouldn't be easy to do most of the
time from what we know of Seanchan politics (Turak to Padan Fain in TGH
ch 34.) But a Forsaken like Graendal who makes wide use of compulsion
should have little trouble. Not to mention that the word of the Empress
is not questioned by anybody in Seanchan, so once Graendal reached her,
she'd be set. I think its very possible, even likely that Graendal is
in Seanchan. Of course, I also think she could be in Shara or someplace
else east of the Aiel Waste. As I said, it's not certain, although Erica
seems convinced.
> So, with this out of the way, where *is* Graendal? [...]
From above, Seanchan or Shara seem the most likely places. Shienar has
been discussed before, and dismissed by the majority, although I'm sure
there are some poeple on the net who still think she's there. Tarabon
and/or Arad Domon were also likely places since someone (Lanfear or
Asmodean, I forgot which) said she had been there. Although with them
in anarchy as you said, they won't make much of a power base, now would
they?
> (Incidentally, the same remarks on location apply to Mesaana and Semirhage,
> except that they are not necessarily rulers of nations. We know Graendal is.)
Actually, Mesaana and Semirhage probably aren't in control of a nation, since
they weren't included in the Forsaken Social in the TFoH prologue. You'll
recall that Lanfear's reasons for including the Forsaken she did was that
they had established power bases, whilest the other Forsaken hadn't.
It's possible that at least one of them was sealed longer than most of the
other Forsaken, since sosme were free earlier than others. Reegardless,
I'm sure all the Forsaken are now free now that at least four of the seven
seals are definately broken, and maybe (porbably?) more.
> PS. And while we're on the topic, whatever happened to Demandred (or was it
> Damodred? I forget which was a forsaken, and which was just an asshole...
Demandred. House Damodred is/was the name of the Cairhienen ruling nobility
before the Aiel War (ie, Laman, etc.). Thus, Barthanes in TGH was a Damodred,
as is Moriaine. The only thing we really know about Demandred is that he
hates Rand with a passion. My pet theory, without any evidence to support
it, is that Mazrim Taim is actually Demandred.
A pothole to the Wheel of Time, (I don't even know what that means!)
Chris Byler
: In article <CJ8A3...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> by...@sphinx.phys.Virginia.EDU (Chris Byler) writes:
: [In response to Erica's assumption that Graendal is in Seanchan.]
: > This was pretty much a throwaway remark in the original post, but why are you
: > so sure Graendal is in Seanchan? What evidence do you have [...]?
: It's not _certain_ she's in Seanchan, just probable. One of the primary
: reasons s that the way the people glimpsed through the gateway were
: clothed is similar to the way Seanchan servants dress.
Hmm, picking up a little much from minutiae? If you saw bodyguards with towers
and ravens tattooed on them that would be another matter.
: > I thought she was in Murandy, myself... process of elimination. But then I
: Murandy? Why? We should have seen something unusual in when Siuan and
: Co. passed through Lugard, wouldn't we? Do you have any reason to think
: she's in Murandy other than you thought you had eliminated everyplace else?
No, that was pretty much my reason. But I hadn't thought of that, there might
have been rumors floating if she had been. Probably east of the Aiel, then,
or someplace that we don't know about. (South of the Sea of Storms?)
: > never really considered Seanchan as a possible Forsaken location. The
: > Seanchan, let me remind you, are EXTREMELY obsessive about the Blood. A
: > newcomer arriving in their lands would be suspicious, and without a
: > documented birth could only at best become a power behind the throne (like
: > Rahvin), which it is clear Graendal is not. Furthermore, Graendal is
: > _mareth'damane_ (sp) to the Seanchan, and they would attempt to collar her
: > as soon as they perceived her ability to channel. Under no circumstances
: > could any forsaken whatsoever become a ruler in Seanchan. Good thing for
: > the DO they're so anti-Rand anyway. :)
: I think you're a little too quick to ruletout Seanchan. First off, being
: "of the Blood", despite likely Seanchan claims, doesn't truely mean that
: person is a direct descendant of Arthur Hawkwing. People can be "raised
: to the Blood." (Turak to Egeanin in TGh ch.29) I suspect that most of
: the Seanchan people who are of the Blood haven't even a drop of Hawkwing's
Entirely possible, I hadn't picked up on that adoption thing, but I think that
doctrine probably does not apply to the royal line. It is very clear that
Graendal is the only ruler wherever she is, not just telling a puppet empress
what to say and do. Compulsion only works at short range, so she would still
need some form of legitimization, or an army/police force, to keep down rebels
if she had killed the empress outright.
Remember also that channelers can assess one another's abilities at a glance,
particularly female channelers. Any damane (and hence her sul'dam) who saw her
would know the truth, that she can channel. She wouldn't get ten feet without
being attacked and denounced, not necessarily in that order.
: blood in them. So it is certainly possible for Graendal to rise to power
: through the ranks quickly, although it wouldn't be easy to do most of the
: time from what we know of Seanchan politics (Turak to Padan Fain in TGH
Rising through the ranks does not include the top rank in virtually any
society, esp. a hyper-stratified one like Seanchan.
: ch 34.) But a Forsaken like Graendal who makes wide use of compulsion
: should have little trouble. Not to mention that the word of the Empress
: is not questioned by anybody in Seanchan, so once Graendal reached her,
: she'd be set. I think its very possible, even likely that Graendal is
: in Seanchan. Of course, I also think she could be in Shara or someplace
: else east of the Aiel Waste. As I said, it's not certain, although Erica
: seems convinced.
On further reflection, I cast my vote for east of the Aiel. (I hadn't picked up
on the fact that SS went through Murandy.. It seems out of the way to get from
the tower to Salidar, though, since Salidar is in Andor. Maybe that should be
double-checked.) There is very little known about the east-of-Aiel nations
except that they are very valuable trading partners and that they now have no
contact with the rest of the world, unless Rand reopens the Waste to further
travel.
: > So, with this out of the way, where *is* Graendal? [...]
: From above, Seanchan or Shara seem the most likely places. Shienar has
: been discussed before, and dismissed by the majority, although I'm sure
: there are some poeple on the net who still think she's there. Tarabon
: and/or Arad Domon were also likely places since someone (Lanfear or
: Asmodean, I forgot which) said she had been there. Although with them
: in anarchy as you said, they won't make much of a power base, now would
: they?
No, they wouldn't, that was my point. I don't think Shienar is too likely, just
because anyone even posing as a blight ruler is going to have to fight
shadowspawn, and I don't think she would. Also there are no clues that the
people in the background are shienaran. Seanchan is, I think, ruled out by
the above arguments, which leaves Shara or some other trans-Waste place.
: > (Incidentally, the same remarks on location apply to Mesaana and Semirhage,
: > except that they are not necessarily rulers of nations. We know Graendal is.)
: Actually, Mesaana and Semirhage probably aren't in control of a nation, since
: they weren't included in the Forsaken Social in the TFoH prologue. You'll
: recall that Lanfear's reasons for including the Forsaken she did was that
: they had established power bases, whilest the other Forsaken hadn't.
: It's possible that at least one of them was sealed longer than most of the
: other Forsaken, since sosme were free earlier than others. Reegardless,
: I'm sure all the Forsaken are now free now that at least four of the seven
: seals are definately broken, and maybe (porbably?) more.
True, but wherever they are they will make waves, and we have no reports of
such waves from the previously-discussed nations. Except one of them could be
in Murandy or Shienar or someplace like that w/o much news getting back to the
civilized world, alternatively they could be in A.D. or Tar. and be the cause
of the anarchy there as they attempt to take over. Semi's personality though
seems to not fit in with what is known about the Domanis :), so maybe Mesaana.
: > PS. And while we're on the topic, whatever happened to Demandred (or was it
: > Damodred? I forget which was a forsaken, and which was just an asshole...
: Demandred. House Damodred is/was the name of the Cairhienen ruling nobility
: before the Aiel War (ie, Laman, etc.). Thus, Barthanes in TGH was a Damodred,
: as is Moriaine. The only thing we really know about Demandred is that he
: hates Rand with a passion. My pet theory, without any evidence to support
: it, is that Mazrim Taim is actually Demandred.
I don't think this flies. Some AS can estimate channeling potential, and could
have seen MT was _very_ strong when they had him before. (Although Demandred
could have the tricks necessary to escape them w/o being stilled.) Also, there
is evidence that MT emerged very early on in the series, probably when Ishy was
the only forsaken loose, or maybe even before that. Although if it is true it
would be interesting to see MT come to join Rand's 'amnesty', Demandred will
certainly jump at that chance to get close to Rand whether he is MT or not.
: A pothole to the Wheel of Time, (I don't even know what that means!)
: - Joe
: --
: Joseph Shaw | This _is_ my hobby! | Delete this sig when quoting!!
: GTA/Grad. Student +---------------------+--------------------------------
: Computer Science | "For they shall suck of the abundance of the
: Virginia Tech | net and of the treasure hid in the hosts..."
I think you just found the best way to get your sig quoted...
--Chris Byler--
Joseph Shaw
> Joseph Shaw (joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu) wrote:
> : It's not _certain_ she's in Seanchan, just probable. One of the primary
> : clothed is similar to the way Seanchan servants dress.
>
> Hmm, picking up a little much from minutiae? If you saw bodyguards with
> towers and ravens tattooed on them that would be another matter.
Quite. I'm sure there are other reasons to suspect Seanchan, but I don't
remember any of them from before. Can someone help me out on this?
As I said before, it's only speculation.
> Entirely possible, I hadn't picked up on that adoption thing, but I think that
> doctrine probably does not apply to the royal line. It is very clear that
> Graendal is the only ruler wherever she is, not just telling a puppet empress
> what to say and do. Compulsion only works at short range, so she would still
> need some form of legitimization, or an army/police force, to keep down rebels
> if she had killed the empress outright.
All that would take is control of the Seekers for Truth, really. Remember
also that Graendal could make herself look like the Empress for public
appearances to keep down suspicion (Ala Lanfear as Kielle). The Seanchan
political structure makes it much harder to gain control, but it also makes
it much easier to maintain control once its gained.
> Remember also that channelers can assess one another's abilities at a glance,
> particularly female channelers. Any damane (and hence her sul'dam) who saw
> her would know the truth, that she can channel. She wouldn't get ten feet
> without being attacked and denounced, not necessarily in that order.
This is something I meant to adress the first time and forgot. Graendal can
probably hide her channeling when she needs to, as well as hiding her ability
to channel. Moghedien disguised her ability from the BA in Tanchico in TSR;
hiding flows if the OP can be done through a process called Inversion, as
Lanfear did to hide her shield of Asmodean from Moiraine and the Wise Ones.
Plus, Graendal can probably overcome several damane as easily as Moghedien
handled Liandrin and Co. in TFoH. To quote Moiraine, "Do not make the
mistake of thinking the Forsaken simple. That could easily be fatal."
That said, you do raise good points in the parts I edited out. I'm now
leaning more toward Shara or the like instead of Seanchan, but I still
think its possible for her to have gained control without too much effort,
though probably by starting at the top instead of rising through the ranks.
> On further reflection, I cast my vote for east of the Aiel. (I hadn't picked
> up on the fact that SS went through Murandy.. It seems out of the way to get
> from the tower to Salidar, though, since Salidar is in Andor. Maybe that
> should be double-checked.)
Salidar is in Altara, near its border with Amadicia, so Lugard is actually
right on the way.
> : My pet theory, without any evidence to support
> : it, is that Mazrim Taim is actually Demandred.
>
> I don't think this flies. Some AS can estimate channeling potential, and
> could have seen MT was _very_ strong when they had him before. (Although
> Demandred could have the tricks necessary to escape them w/o being stilled.)
> Also, there is evidence that MT emerged very early on in the series, probably
> when Ishy was the only forsaken loose, or maybe even before that. Although
MT is "supposedly of great strength", and I'm sure he could escape from
the AS if he had to. MT first appeared in TGH, when Ish and Lanfear were
both free at the least, and I expect more Forsaken than Lanfear were freed
when the first seal was broken at the Eye, although we don't know that for
sure. Of course, I'm not holdimg my breath, either. :-)
> if it is true it would be interesting to see MT come to join Rand's
> 'amnesty', Demandred will certainly jump at that chance to get close to
> Rand whether he is MT or not.
My thoughts exactly.
> I think you just found the best way to get your sig quoted...
> --Chris Byler--
*sigh* I just knew someone would do that sooner or later...
Zach Simpson
by...@sphinx.phys.Virginia.EDU (Chris Byler) wrote:
> Joseph Shaw (joe...@info1.cc.vt.edu) wrote:
> : In article <CJ8A3...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> by...@sphinx.phys.Virginia.EDU (Chris Byler) writes:
> On further reflection, I cast my vote for east of the Aiel. (I hadn't picked up
> on the fact that SS went through Murandy.. It seems out of the way to get from
> the tower to Salidar, though, since Salidar is in Andor. Maybe that should be
> double-checked.) There is very little known about the east-of-Aiel nations
> except that they are very valuable trading partners and that they now have no
> contact with the rest of the world, unless Rand reopens the Waste to further
> travel.
Salidar is either in Altara or Ghealdan. In any case it's across the
Eldar(?) River from Amadicia. The only references I could find were in the
thoughts of Gareth Bryne and the arrival of Nynaeve and co. From them we
know that it's downriver from Samara where the menagerie was, but not in
Amadicia, for obvious reasons. I'm guessing Altara, because it just seemed
like they were in that boat forever. What is the Whitecloak War anyway?
Another stupid question completely unrelated to the location of Graendal:
Gareth Bryne, before his arrival in Salidar, had never actually seen Dalyn.
But when he goes through the tavern to speak with the AS, he notices Min
with a man he supposes to be Dalyn. Wouldn't he have known him as Logain?
He was still Morgase's head guy when Logain was paraded on his way to Tar
Valon. I thought that maybe gentling had as much effect on him as it did
on Siuan and Leane, but I doubt it. They had been working the Power for
years, giving them the agelessness, whereas he had not. If he did have the
agelessness, wouldn't also Rand, who's no doubt handled more volume-wise
than Logain has? Is there any evidence to support the claim that men get
ageless except the fact that women do? Please excuse the irrelevant
questions, I'm just curious.
>
> : > So, with this out of the way, where *is* Graendal? [...]
> True, but wherever they are they will make waves, and we have no reports of
> such waves from the previously-discussed nations. Except one of them could be
> in Murandy or Shienar or someplace like that w/o much news getting back to the
> civilized world, alternatively they could be in A.D. or Tar. and be the cause
> of the anarchy there as they attempt to take over. Semi's personality though
> seems to not fit in with what is known about the Domanis :), so maybe Mesaana.
Why Shienar? I seem to have missed that thread its first time through. I
think that I'd probably rule out the Borderland nations entirely, except
perhaps Saldaea, with all the stuff happening there. What is,
specifically, happening there, anyway? I'm too tired to read more tonight.
Is there a possibility that one or more of the Forsaken has remained in the
Blight to become the (or leaders of the) new Dreadlords? Why entwine
yourselves with the affairs of nations if you can take command of a couple
Trolloc tribes and a bunch of miscellaneous Shadowspawn?
> : Demandred. House Damodred is/was the name of the Cairhienen ruling nobility
> : before the Aiel War (ie, Laman, etc.). Thus, Barthanes in TGH was a Damodred,
> : as is Moriaine. The only thing we really know about Demandred is that he
> : hates Rand with a passion. My pet theory, without any evidence to support
> : it, is that Mazrim Taim is actually Demandred.
>
> I don't think this flies. Some AS can estimate channeling potential, and could
> have seen MT was _very_ strong when they had him before. (Although Demandred
> could have the tricks necessary to escape them w/o being stilled.) Also, there
> is evidence that MT emerged very early on in the series, probably when Ishy was
> the only forsaken loose, or maybe even before that. Although if it is true it
> would be interesting to see MT come to join Rand's 'amnesty', Demandred will
> certainly jump at that chance to get close to Rand whether he is MT or not.
I would question the ability of AS to evaluate men channelers. After all,
women cannot even feel men channeling, why would they be able to judge
strength in the power? (I've already heard the Verin argument, and don't
think it's really valid)
I do like the idea of Demandred getting at Rand through the amnesty,
though. Cool.
>
> : A pothole to the Wheel of Time, (I don't even know what that means!)
> : - Joe
> : --
> : Joseph Shaw | This _is_ my hobby! | Delete this sig when quoting!!
> : GTA/Grad. Student +---------------------+--------------------------------
> : Computer Science | "For they shall suck of the abundance of the
> : Virginia Tech | net and of the treasure hid in the hosts..."
>
> I think you just found the best way to get your sig quoted...
>
> --Chris Byler--
Hasta
Zach
Mech Eng Student
|> In <1994Jan3.0...@martha.utcc.utk.edu> d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
|>
|> >>into the Blight. The man resembling Shaiel (Tigraine) would then
|> >>have been Luc, her brother, possibly 'possessed' by Isam.
|>
|> >(*possibly*?)
|>
|> My main concern is the timing. Probably, by this time, he was
|> 'possessed.'
|>
|> My minor concern is the term 'possessed.' I have definite images
|> in my mind of people being possessed, and they usually hinge on
|> the idea that the original owner of the body is still alive
|> (mentally) somewhere or other. I'm not sure that's the case
|> here. Luc's essence may have died, or been destroyed, or
|> whatever. Or, like Fain and Mordeth, Luc and Isam may have
|> merged, in a more inseparable way, becoming greater than the sum
|> of the parts.
Duh, call me a fool but who is/was this Isam in the first place
(Before he met Luc) i seem to have missed that one somewhere.
TTFN
Roderick Easton
3rd year Student Edinburgh University SCOTLAND
John Novak
> Duh, call me a fool but who is/was this Isam in the first place
>(Before he met Luc) i seem to have missed that one somewhere.
A relative of Lan.
Cousin, I believe.
sl...@cc.usu.edu
Maybe this has been refuted already, but I was amazed to see the
question. In tFoH Moghedian tells Nyn' that Graendal AND Rhavin have been
cohorts, not involved with various scheming centered around Sammael who is in
Illian. Then, in one of closing paragraphs, after Rhavin is toast, Asmodean
gets the big HELLO from someone within the castle. Someone that he recognized
all too well. I don't believe that Graendal has been plotting anywhere else,
but aiding the now dead Rhavin. Look for her to make some moves (politically)
in the next book, maybe.
Just MHO.
--
Travis L. Clements ------------------
Utah State University --------------- GO AGGIES !!!!!!
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The future holds nothing else but confrontation!
Chuck D
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Disclaim? Disclaim what?