Review: _Diplomatic Immunity_, by Lois McMaster Bujold
P. Korda
This is the latest book in Bujold's long-running series concerning the
adventures of Miles Vorkosigan. Miles used to be the commander of an
interstellar mercenary company, and an agent of the Barrayaran Empire,
but he settled down several books ago to become an "Imperial Auditor."
In the Barrayaran legal system, that's kind of like Kenneth Star
without all the bothersome legal and financial constraints.
Basically, he investigates and solves problems for the Emperor (who
happens to be Miles' childhood friend).
This book starts with Miles on the way back to Barrayar after
galavanting about the galaxy with Ekaterin, his wife of one year, on a
belated honeymoon. He receives an urgent message from Emperor Gregor,
dispatching him to a station in a far corner of space to clean up a
mess involving an impounded merchant fleet, its military escort, an
officer who's gone missing under suspicious circumstances, all of
which amounts to brewing intergalactic diplomatic incident. Miles'
mission is to sort through the conflicting accounts of what happenned,
discover the truth, and extricate the impounded fleet with minimum
cost (in political and financial capital) to the Empire.
Additionally, he has a personal deadline: he and Ekaterin very much
want to get home to be present at the birth of their children. (No,
Ekaterin's not pregnant. You see, in the future, humans have been
freed of the constraints of biological reproduction; babies are
gestated in "uterine replicators." Bujold is, as far as I know,
unique among SF writers in portraying this as a good thing. Good for
her.)
If you haven't read any of the other books in the series, this is
probably not the very best place to start, but as usual, Bujold
includes enough background material to let the book stand on its own.
People who have enjoyed the previous books in the series will enjoy
this one-- it's in keeping with the rest of the series, and features
the return of one of my favorite characters of yore: the hermaphrodite
Bel Thorne, formerly of the Denarii Mercenaries, currently portmaster
of Graf Station (which is where Miles has been sent). It also
features the return of the four-armed, no-legged "quaddies" from
_Falling Free_, who have established a successful society over the last
200 years.
The first half of the book moves along at a steady pace, following a
police procedural model, with Miles sifting through witnesses and
evidence, slowly constructing a picture of what's going on. Almost
exactly halfway through, however, the plot kicks into high gear when
the villain senses that the gig is about to be up, and takes desperate
action, putting the lives of Miles, his compatriots, and about 50,000
civilians in great peril. Then, Detective Miles vanishes, and Covert
Ops Maniac Miles reasserts himself, after having been on vacation for
two or three books. The second half of the book is very exciting. I
stayed up way past my bedtime last night to get to the end of the
engrossing bit-- that is, the rest of the book, less two chapters.
Those who were entranced with the notion that Bujold was going to turn
Miles into Lord Peter Wimsey IN SPACE!!!, with Ekaterin playing the role
of Harriet Vane, might be disappointed. Ekaterin plays only a
supporting role in this book, much reduced from her prominence in the
previous two books, which focussed on Miles' courtship of her. As far
as I'm concerned, this is an improvement. Ekaterin is a nice lady,
and she's the perfect wife for Miles, but she's a very boring
character. There's no fire to her, no excitement. I guess she's
supposed to act as a counterpoint to the volatile Miles, but this
series is the most fun when Miles is at his most volatile. So,
anyway, I was happy to see her get sent to protective seclusion on a
military cruiser when the situation on the station became dicey.
While this book doesn't reach the emotional depths of _Memory_ or _Mirror
Dance_ (in my opinion, the best of the series), it is a good, fun
adventure story which harks back to earlier books in the series, such
as _The Vor Game_ and _Brothers in Arms_. There's also a small bit of
quality angst, which is a spoiler, so I'll put it at the end.[1]
However, I do feel that there's one respect in which the more recent books
are lacking, when compared to the pre-_Komarr_ books. Originally, this
series was about an imperfect hero. Miles was physically infirm in a
society which prizes strength. In addition to the difficulties du jour, he
had to contend with his own self-doubt and the potential treachery of his
weak, deformed body. That made him more interesting than your average
space opera hero. Nowadays, Miles is too happy. At this point, his life
is perfect. He's got everything he ever wanted: a position of respect and
power among his people, a beautiful wife who loves him, his own
genetically-perfect children. Even his physical problems have been solved,
through years of surgery. All of his major problems are external, and
(relatively) easily solved. Miles was a lot more compelling when he had
all that angst. Bring back the angst!
Spoiler for _Diplomatic Immunity_
The good angsty bit comes when Miles discovers that Bel Thorne has
been infected with a nasty, likely fatal, plague. I thought it was
very moving, indicating that Miles has not forgotten his old Dendarii
pals, even if they've been out of the books for a while.
--
Pam Korda
kor2 @ midway.uchicago.edu
Home Page: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/
Book Log: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/booklog/
Kate Nepveu
> This is the latest book in Bujold's long-running series concerning the
> adventures of Miles Vorkosigan. Miles used to be the commander of an
> interstellar mercenary company, and an agent of the Barrayaran Empire,
> but he settled down several books ago to become an "Imperial Auditor."
> In the Barrayaran legal system, that's kind of like Kenneth Star
> without all the bothersome legal and financial constraints.
Yes, I couldn't help but twitch every time Miles said, "Search warrant?
Who, me?", and not just because (I don't think) I've spent a bunch of
time studying criminal procedure. I do hope that comes back to seriously
bite him on the ass sometime; I know the reverse was his problem in
_Komarr_, but really.
[..] You see, in the future, humans have been
> freed of the constraints of biological reproduction; babies are
> gestated in "uterine replicators." Bujold is, as far as I know,
> unique among SF writers in portraying this as a good thing. Good for
> her.)
Really? Gosh.
[...]
> Almost
> exactly halfway through, however, the plot kicks into high gear when
> the villain senses that the gig is about to be up, and takes desperate
> action, putting the lives of Miles, his compatriots, and about 50,000
> civilians in great peril. Then, Detective Miles vanishes, and Covert
> Ops Maniac Miles reasserts himself, after having been on vacation for
> two or three books.
I thought Bel's description "you sawed-off little half-breed maniac"
was spot-on.
> The second half of the book is very exciting. I
> stayed up way past my bedtime last night to get to the end of the
> engrossing bit-- that is, the rest of the book, less two chapters.
Yup. Forward momentum all the way, baby; though I saw it as a story
in three acts, myself.
> Ekaterin is a nice lady,
> and she's the perfect wife for Miles, but she's a very boring
> character. There's no fire to her, no excitement. I guess she's
> supposed to act as a counterpoint to the volatile Miles, but this
> series is the most fun when Miles is at his most volatile.
YMMV; I like Ekaterin, but then I think I evaluate "am I happy to see
this character" more on the "do I like this person" level than you (or
in addition to "are interesting things likely to happen around this
person").
[...]
> While this book doesn't reach the emotional depths of _Memory_ or _Mirror
> Dance_ (in my opinion, the best of the series),
I also think _MD_ is the best; it's the book that's the most mature and
the least easy for the characters, if that makes sense.
[...]
> However, I do feel that there's one respect in which the more recent books
> are lacking, when compared to the pre-_Komarr_ books. Originally, this
> series was about an imperfect hero. [...]
> Miles was a lot more compelling when he had
> all that angst. Bring back the angst!
I'm hoping for Parenting Miles, myself, as the next big angst-inducing
life change that Bujold writes about; I think Helen Natalia could be
rather the handful for him.
> Spoiler for _Diplomatic Immunity_
> The good angsty bit comes when Miles discovers that Bel Thorne has
> been infected with a nasty, likely fatal, plague. I thought it was
> very moving, indicating that Miles has not forgotten his old Dendarii
> pals, even if they've been out of the books for a while.
Yes, I thought so too. "Old valor and love," indeed.
Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- kate....@yale.edu
Paired Reading Page; Book Reviews; Outside of a Dog: A Book Log
"I awoke this morning with devout thanksgiving for my friends."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
Carol Flynt
Kate Nepveu wrote:
> P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > Ekaterin is a nice lady,
> > and she's the perfect wife for Miles, but she's a very boring
> > character. There's no fire to her, no excitement. I guess she's
> > supposed to act as a counterpoint to the volatile Miles, but this
> > series is the most fun when Miles is at his most volatile.
>
> YMMV; I like Ekaterin, but then I think I evaluate "am I happy to see
> this character" more on the "do I like this person" level than you (or
> in addition to "are interesting things likely to happen around this
> person").
I very much like Ekaterin. And I don't think anyone on or
related to Barrayar, including Miles, has quite figured out
that she's every bit as explosive as Cordelia.
She did not have a role worthy of her in _DI_, but really, it was
a Miles story, not an Ekaterin story.
I wouldn't write her off just yet. Keep that loading bay from
Komarr in mind, and wait and see.
Carol Flynt
Carol Flynt
Kate Nepveu wrote:
> P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> > Spoiler for _Diplomatic Immunity_
>
>
> > The good angsty bit comes when Miles discovers that Bel Thorne has
> > been infected with a nasty, likely fatal, plague. I thought it was
> > very moving, indicating that Miles has not forgotten his old Dendarii
> > pals, even if they've been out of the books for a while.
>
> Yes, I thought so too. "Old valor and love," indeed.
What I liked about the Bel/Miles relationship in _DI_ was
Miles' realization that he might have missed the boat with Bel
back in the Dendarii days. Of course, the Miles of then simply
couldn't see things as the Miles of now can, so the reaction
to Bel's advances was inevitable. But it was nice to see
Miles rethink things from his new experiences.
I think Miles is maturing quite nicely.
Carol Flynt
phil hunt
>
>Ekaterin's not pregnant. You see, in the future, humans have been
>freed of the constraints of biological reproduction; babies are
>gestated in "uterine replicators." Bujold is, as far as I know,
>unique among SF writers in portraying this as a good thing.
Steve Stirling also has (in _Drakon_ and _The Stone Dogs_).
>However, I do feel that there's one respect in which the more recent books
>are lacking, when compared to the pre-_Komarr_ books. Originally, this
>series was about an imperfect hero. Miles was physically infirm in a
>society which prizes strength. In addition to the difficulties du jour, he
>had to contend with his own self-doubt and the potential treachery of his
>weak, deformed body. That made him more interesting than your average
>space opera hero. Nowadays, Miles is too happy. At this point, his life
>is perfect.
People do change as they get older.
--
<"><"><"> Philip Hunt <ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk> <"><"><">
"I would guess that he really believes whatever is politically
advantageous for him to believe."
-- Alison Brooks, referring to Michael
Portillo, on soc.history.what-if
Ray
"Carol Flynt" <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote in message
news:3CE2013F...@cflynt.com...
I agree. She played a very good supporting role in _DI_, but she has
already proven that she is more than capable of standing up and taking
charge when necessary. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see her
pulling Miles out of a bad situation some time in the near future.
Ray Drouillard
P. Korda
phil hunt <ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>On Wed, 15 May 2002 03:56:19 GMT, P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>>However, I do feel that there's one respect in which the more recent books
>>are lacking, when compared to the pre-_Komarr_ books. Originally, this
>>series was about an imperfect hero. Miles was physically infirm in a
>>society which prizes strength. In addition to the difficulties du jour, he
>>had to contend with his own self-doubt and the potential treachery of his
>>weak, deformed body. That made him more interesting than your average
>>space opera hero. Nowadays, Miles is too happy. At this point, his life
>>is perfect.
>
>People do change as they get older.
Well, duh. I'm not saying that Miles at 32 ought to have the same
problems he had at 17. I'm saying that, now that he's solved all his
old problems, I'd like to see him develop some new ones which are
equally compelling.
Mileage obviously varies, but I prefer it when authors don't make
things too easy for their characters.
P. Korda
Kate Nepveu <kate....@yale.edu> wrote:
>P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>> gestated in "uterine replicators." Bujold is, as far as I know,
>> unique among SF writers in portraying this as a good thing. Good for
>> her.)
>
>Really? Gosh.
Well, it's not like I'm extensively read on the subject of
reproductive technology in SF, so there could be dozens which I just
haven't read.
>> However, I do feel that there's one respect in which the more recent books
>> are lacking, when compared to the pre-_Komarr_ books. Originally, this
>> series was about an imperfect hero. [...]
>> Miles was a lot more compelling when he had
>> all that angst. Bring back the angst!
>
>I'm hoping for Parenting Miles, myself, as the next big angst-inducing
>life change that Bujold writes about; I think Helen Natalia could be
>rather the handful for him.
I agree that the kids could be a great source of conflict in future
Vorkosigan adventures. I'm particularly interested in how Miles, after
having known and loved assertive, dynamic women like Elli Quinn and
Rowan Durona (not to mention Taura!) will deal with raising a daughter
in sexist, repressive Barrayaran society.
Ray
"P. Korda" <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:H2AE8.24$s4....@news.uchicago.edu...
From what little we have seen of his daughter, she will make her
presence known without any help from him,
Besides, the society is more sexist than repressive; and the Vorkosigen
family is trying to change that, anyhow.
Thirdly, little Helen Natalia will, no doubt, try to live up to her
Grandma Cordelia.
Ray Drouillard
Ray
> In article <slrnae4tlo...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk>,
> phil hunt <ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> >On Wed, 15 May 2002 03:56:19 GMT, P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu>
wrote:
>
> >>However, I do feel that there's one respect in which the more recent
books
> >>are lacking, when compared to the pre-_Komarr_ books. Originally,
this
> >>series was about an imperfect hero. Miles was physically infirm in
a
> >>society which prizes strength. In addition to the difficulties du
jour, he
> >>had to contend with his own self-doubt and the potential treachery
of his
> >>weak, deformed body. That made him more interesting than your
average
> >>space opera hero. Nowadays, Miles is too happy. At this point, his
life
> >>is perfect.
> >
> >People do change as they get older.
>
> Well, duh. I'm not saying that Miles at 32 ought to have the same
> problems he had at 17. I'm saying that, now that he's solved all his
> old problems, I'd like to see him develop some new ones which are
> equally compelling.
It looks like he is going to spend the rest of his life solving
problems. It isn't necessary that *all* of a character's challenges
remain internal.
Besides, he still looks like a mutant, and is short
>
> Mileage obviously varies, but I prefer it when authors don't make
> things too easy for their characters.
heh heh... Some authors are downright cruel to their characters.
Ray Drouillard
Michael S. Schiffer
news:BWAE8.29748$fU2.2...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com:
>...
> From what little we have seen of his daughter, she will make her
> presence known without any help from him,
>
> Besides, the society is more sexist than repressive; and the
> Vorkosigen family is trying to change that, anyhow.
>
> Thirdly, little Helen Natalia will, no doubt, try to live up to
> her Grandma Cordelia.
I suspect that one Worst Thing that could happen to Miles would be
to discover that one of his children really doesn't have a burning
drive to live up to any of his illustrious ancestors. Not a bad
person or anything, just... average, and immune to the field around
Miles that turns hard-luck cases into fleet commanders and
gardeners into planetary ecologists and good home cooks into fully
qualified chefs de cuisine. (In other words, someone who really
fits most people's impression of Ivan.) Miles is surrounded by
people who are unexpectedly world-class at whatever their field of
expertise is. He's come almost to expect it. Dealing with someone
who's merely ordinary, but who can't be summarily dismissed or
routed around, would be quite the challenge for him.
For full effect, of course, this should be Aral Alexander, not
Helen Natalia. God knows that the line is due a count who's
something less than a pivotal figure in planetary history. A
Richard Cromwell, perhaps, if not quite a Henry VI.
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Kate Nepveu
[...]
> I suspect that one Worst Thing that could happen to Miles would be
> to discover that one of his children really doesn't have a burning
> drive to live up to any of his illustrious ancestors.
[..]
> For full effect, of course, this should be Aral Alexander, not
> Helen Natalia. God knows that the line is due a count who's
> something less than a pivotal figure in planetary history. A
> Richard Cromwell, perhaps, if not quite a Henry VI.
For fuller effect, Helen Natalia should want badly to be Countess
and be damn good at it. (I have to say that this crossed my mind
almost immediately when they were born.) Count's Choice, after
all... IMO, this is a gun on the mantel that should have been
fired in _ACC_, and I'll be thrilled when it finally is.
Carol Flynt
"P. Korda" wrote:
> Well, duh. I'm not saying that Miles at 32 ought to have the same
> problems he had at 17. I'm saying that, now that he's solved all his
> old problems, I'd like to see him develop some new ones which are
> equally compelling.
>
> Mileage obviously varies, but I prefer it when authors don't make
> things too easy for their characters.
>
You think Miles has solved *all* his old problems?
*Boggle*. Well now, let's see: [starts counting on
fingers] In no particular order:
Gregor still has no heirs, which puts Miles and his offspring
very much on a hot seat he'd rather not be on, thanyouverymuch.
Ivan is still unmarried, uncoupled, jealous and bored ...
The counts still think him a mutant, and he's a powerful
mutant, and they don't like it. And let's not forget
that some of them are downright angry with him
after the last Count's Council we saw in ACC.
Ekaterin doesn't much like Barrayar as it is, and is now
as motivated as Cordelia to change it ... in ways I have
no doubt will embroil Miles in delightful dilemmas.
Cetaganda demonstrably has we-can-kill-the-universe-if-
and-when-we-want weapons, and is still an enemy
to Barrayar.
Miles genome is now part of Cetaganda's. (And if you
don't think that's fertile ground for a galaxy-full of
complications, then I don't know what is.)
Cetaganda is now beholden to Miles twice over.
It's a very uncomfortable place for enemies to
be. More to the point, it's a terribly uncomfortable
place for Miles, auditor-voice-of-Gregor-Emperor's-
foster-brother to be in if things get hot. That his
good will bank account with Cetaganda will undoubtedly
be called upon in case of emergency, will not exactly
please either side.
Mark is still more unknown than known, as is his whole
status with Barrayar.
Jackson's Whole is still not fond of either brother. They
nurse grudges. And I keep waiting for the Terrence C
stuff to resurface, and just watch how that somehow
becomes Miles' fault. :-)
I could go on (and in fact often do, with my husband; it's how
we while away the time between books), but I'll let someone
else chime in, if they're interested.
Carol (And Elli still hasn't spoken to him since their last
awful parting ... and Taura is still out there ... and) Flynt
Carol Flynt
"P. Korda" wrote:
> Mileage obviously varies, but I prefer it when authors don't make
> things too easy for their characters.
I agree with you.
Lois, however, has a strong reputation for *never* making
*anything* easy for her characters ... for long.
Carol Flynt
Michael S. Schiffer
news:aburu2$eka$2...@news.ycc.yale.edu:
> Michael S. Schiffer <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> [...]
>> I suspect that one Worst Thing that could happen to Miles would
>> be to discover that one of his children really doesn't have a
>> burning drive to live up to any of his illustrious ancestors.
> [..]
>> For full effect, of course, this should be Aral Alexander, not
>> Helen Natalia. God knows that the line is due a count who's
>> something less than a pivotal figure in planetary history. A
>> Richard Cromwell, perhaps, if not quite a Henry VI.
> For fuller effect, Helen Natalia should want badly to be
> Countess and be damn good at it. (I have to say that this
> crossed my mind almost immediately when they were born.)
This could actually make Miles' life easier, though the political
repercussions would be nontrivial. After Elena and Elli, it would
require teminal dullwittedness for him not to quickly see that as a
solution to the problem. That's not to say it's a bad idea. And
it becomes more complicated if Aral Alexander *wants* the
countship, with Miles refusing to see that he's not made for the
job.
> Count's Choice, after all... IMO, this is a gun on the mantel
> that should have been fired in _ACC_, and I'll be thrilled when
> it finally is.
I liked the Dono plot the way it was-- Count's Choice for Donna
would have circumvented too many fun scenes (particularly those
involving Ivan). Or were you thinking of a different woman being
chosen as a Count?
J.B. Moreno
> Kate Nepveu <kate....@yale.edu> wrote:
-snip-
> >I'm hoping for Parenting Miles, myself, as the next big angst-inducing
> >life change that Bujold writes about; I think Helen Natalia could be
> >rather the handful for him.
>
> I agree that the kids could be a great source of conflict in future
> Vorkosigan adventures. I'm particularly interested in how Miles, after
> having known and loved assertive, dynamic women like Elli Quinn and Rowan
> Durona (not to mention Taura!) will deal with raising a daughter in
> sexist, repressive Barrayaran society.
The sexism is nothing to the anti-mutant attitude, and Miles (with the
help of a powerful father and a feared mother), has managed to deal with
that quite handily.
I expect that with a Da that is effectively both Count and Auditor, with
"Uncle Gregor", not to mention his grandparents, that Helen Natalia will
have it relatively easy. For instance, I don't think that any career
will be beyond her reach if she is determined enough (except perhaps
Count, and that's only because I believe she's the younger sibling).
Being the offspring of the second most powerful person on 3 planet's,
sure gives one a leg up on that kind of thing.
--
JBM
"Your depression will be added to my own" -- Marvin of Borg
Kate Nepveu
> Kate Nepveu <kate....@yale.edu> wrote in
> news:aburu2$eka$2...@news.ycc.yale.edu:
>> Michael S. Schiffer <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
Hmm. Spoilers for _ACC_ coming up.
>> Count's Choice, after all... IMO, this is a gun on the mantel
>> that should have been fired in _ACC_, and I'll be thrilled when
>> it finally is.
> I liked the Dono plot the way it was-- Count's Choice for Donna
> would have circumvented too many fun scenes (particularly those
> involving Ivan). Or were you thinking of a different woman being
> chosen as a Count?
No, I meant Helen N. would or could be Count's Choice. In _ACC_,
Dono told Gregor that letting his candidacy run would force all
the old sticks to confront the reasons behind the male-only rule;
instead, they got to avoid shaking out the wisdom of that rule
by Richars' attack on him.
I like your idea of Aral Alexander also wanting the Countship and
not being any good at it, though, better than him not wanting it.
Michael S. Schiffer
>...
> You think Miles has solved *all* his old problems?
> *Boggle*. Well now, let's see: [starts counting on
> fingers] In no particular order:
> Gregor still has no heirs, which puts Miles and his
> offspring very much on a hot seat he'd rather not be on,
> thanyouverymuch.
Do we know that? I can't think of any likely reason for Gregor and
Laisa to have been slower to start children than Miles and
Ekaterin. It wasn't mentioned, but Gregor showed up for one
recorded message in DI. (Maybe it will become clear in the short
story about Miles and Ekaterin's wedding.)
> Ivan is still unmarried, uncoupled, jealous and bored ...
> The counts still think him a mutant, and he's a powerful
> mutant, and they don't like it. And let's not forget
> that some of them are downright angry with him
> after the last Count's Council we saw in ACC.
Miles has had enemies trying to arrange his death all his life.
They haven't increased in power as much as he has, so I think he's
better off now than he was at, say, 17. Which isn't to say that
they won't cause trouble.
> Ekaterin doesn't much like Barrayar as it is, and is now
> as motivated as Cordelia to change it ... in ways I have
> no doubt will embroil Miles in delightful dilemmas.
I don't get the impression that Ekaterin wants to change worlds so
much as carve out a space within one. (Note that its Miles who
keeps trying to push her from gardener to planetary ecologist.) If
anything, she deliberately circumscribed her responsibilities ("an
Auditor's wife is *not* an assistant Auditor"). She's more
reactive than active. If people attack her, they may get a nasty
surprise (as in _Komarr_), but I suspect that she'll be even less
interventionist than Cordelia.
> Cetaganda demonstrably has we-can-kill-the-universe-if-
> and-when-we-want weapons, and is still an enemy
> to Barrayar.
Sort of. Miles has been personally defusing the situation for a
few years, now, and the current administration is apparently not as
interested in territorial expansion as they used to be. There's
plenty of potential for conflict, but Cetaganda seems to be turning
inward. (The plots of _Cetaganda_ and _Diplomatic Immunity_
reflect, in part, a reaction to that.)
> Miles genome is now part of Cetaganda's. (And if you
> don't think that's fertile ground for a galaxy-full of
> complications, then I don't know what is.)
>...
The timescale is probably too long, given Miles' diminishing
lifespan. That bit from the Cetagandan vet about shortlifers not
missing a few decades was pretty creepy. That, plus Miles' "I
don't have years. I've *never* had years." in ACC strongly
suggests that he's not going to be around long enough for the
Cetagandans to test out his genes in a few ba, let alone release
them into the haut proper. It may be an issue for his descendants,
if Bujold decides to write about them. (Miles' genes will be
showing up among the haut about the same time that Athos gains a
large telepathic minority. Interesting times, potentially.)
Of course, if the Duronas' longevity research bears fruit, all bets
are off. But I wouldn't be surprised if Miles' idiosyncratic
biochemistry causes him yet more trouble where that's concerned.
Michael S. Schiffer
> Hmm. Spoilers for _ACC_ coming up.
You're right-- I probably should have put space in myself.
> Michael S. Schiffer <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> Kate Nepveu <kate....@yale.edu> wrote in
>> news:aburu2$eka$2...@news.ycc.yale.edu:
>>> Count's Choice, after all... IMO, this is a gun on the mantel
>>> that should have been fired in _ACC_, and I'll be thrilled
>>> when it finally is.
>> I liked the Dono plot the way it was-- Count's Choice for Donna
>> would have circumvented too many fun scenes (particularly those
>> involving Ivan). Or were you thinking of a different woman
>> being chosen as a Count?
> No, I meant Helen N. would or could be Count's Choice. In
> _ACC_, Dono told Gregor that letting his candidacy run would
> force all the old sticks to confront the reasons behind the
> male-only rule; instead, they got to avoid shaking out the
> wisdom of that rule by Richars' attack on him.
I see what you mean. Of course, Lord Dono will probably still be
part of the Council if/when Lady Helen's suitability as Miles'
heir comes up. That could be fun.
Carol Flynt
"J.B. Moreno" wrote:
> I expect that with a Da that is effectively both Count and Auditor, with
> "Uncle Gregor", not to mention his grandparents, that Helen Natalia will
> have it relatively easy. For instance, I don't think that any career
> will be beyond her reach if she is determined enough (except perhaps
> Count, and that's only because I believe she's the younger sibling).
>
> Being the offspring of the second most powerful person on 3 planet's,
> sure gives one a leg up on that kind of thing.
>
Well, I dunno....
After all, the Vorkosigan relationship with Gregor was
there, and the Vorkosigan power (Regent, don't you know)
was there when Elena was growing up. Before Miles
ever leaves Barrayar in _WA_ he's already admitted
that it's unfair Elena is as boxed in as she is.
So, all those connections didn't help Elena.
The Vorkosigan/Gregor/progressives aren't the problem.
It's every one else.
Carol Flynt
Ray
"Carol Flynt" <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote in message
news:3CE2FC53...@cflynt.com...
At that time, Miles didn't have much power. Also, Elena was a commoner.
It's hard to say what Miles would have been able to do for his
bodyguard's daughter in ten years or so. As it turned out, she went
along for the ride when he became "Admiral Naismith". She ended up
doing very well indeed -- not bad for a prostitute's granddaughter on a
planet like Barryar.
Ray Drouillard
John S. Novak, III
> P. Korda <ko...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>> freed of the constraints of biological reproduction; babies are
>> gestated in "uterine replicators." Bujold is, as far as I know,
>> unique among SF writers in portraying this as a good thing. Good for
>> her.)
> Really? Gosh.
after a day of thought (or at least a day since I thought of it) I
can't come up with anything aside from Halperin's _The Truth Machine_
and _The First Immortal_. This is not surprising, given Halperin's
crowd.
I'm pretty ambivalent on the whole thing myself. It doesn't much
matter to me in that I really don't want kids-- my only fear is that
it would make child rearing that much easier and I'd have to put up
with more of the little beggars.
--
John S. Novak, III j...@cegt201.bradley.edu
The Humblest Man on the Net
Ray
"John S. Novak, III" <j...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:abv021$l1nag$1...@ID-100778.news.dfncis.de...
Quite the contrary, as a matter of fact.
Most developed countries are fairly close to (if not under) zero
population growth. A whole lot of births are "accidents", or are simply
the side-effect of sex without contraceptives.
If an artificial womb becomes available, it'll be easy (and probably
routine) for people to have themselves surgically sterilized (though I
like the implant that Cordelia used -- it would be great for women to
have the choice of having *no* period.)
Also, with the "clock is ticking" mentality being somewhat diminished
(you'll still want to have your kids early enough to get them out of
your house before you retire), less people will do it in a rushed
manner.
Right now, starting a child is free. The cost comes *after* the embryo
has been implanted.
If artificial wombs become more available, people will need to come up
with the cash before conceiving (except for those who want to do it the
"old-fashioned" way.)
Ray Drouillard
Taki Kogoma
to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
Her plot gnerator has been described numerous times as:
"Okay. What's the worst thing that can happen to these characters
now?"
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
quirk @ swcp.com | superior to what I have now."
Veteran of the '91 sf-lovers re-org. | -- Gym Quirk
John S. Novak, III
>> I'm pretty ambivalent on the whole thing myself. It doesn't much
>> matter to me in that I really don't want kids-- my only fear is that
>> it would make child rearing that much easier and I'd have to put up
>> with more of the little beggars.
> Quite the contrary, as a matter of fact.
> Most developed countries are fairly close to (if not under) zero
> population growth. A whole lot of births are "accidents", or are simply
> the side-effect of sex without contraceptives.
Yes, yes, yes, I'm more than well aware of the economic realities as
they hold now. It is speculation only to think that this rule will
continue in the face of a radically transformative technology combined
with the demographics of a bunch of people living to a hundred and
twenty who retire at sixty and just put off having kids until their
retirement.
Furthermore, it was a mildly facetious comment, and I have no wish to
see an otherwise fine thread dragged into one of those insufferable
humorless megathreads because people failed to realize that.
Ray
"Taki Kogoma" <qu...@swcp.com> wrote in message
news:abv29j$s...@boofura.swcp.com...
> On Wed, 15 May 2002 19:51:38 -0400, did Carol Flynt
<ca...@cflynt.com>,
> to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
> >"P. Korda" wrote:
> >> Mileage obviously varies, but I prefer it when authors don't make
> >> things too easy for their characters.
> >
> >I agree with you.
> >
> >Lois, however, has a strong reputation for *never* making
> >*anything* easy for her characters ... for long.
>
> Her plot gnerator has been described numerous times as:
>
> "Okay. What's the worst thing that can happen to these characters
> now?"
Maybe I need to take lessons on the fine art of being cruel to my
protagonists.
Ray
J.B. Moreno
> Jackson's Whole is still not fond of either brother. They
> nurse grudges. And I keep waiting for the Terrence C
> stuff to resurface, and just watch how that somehow
> becomes Miles' fault. :-)
Jackson's Whole only nurses grudges that aren't too expensive -- people
that can and will bomb them out of existence are "too expensive" to hold
grudges against if you can't return the favor.
J.B. Moreno
> "J.B. Moreno" wrote:
>
> > I expect that with a Da that is effectively both Count and Auditor, with
> > "Uncle Gregor", not to mention his grandparents, that Helen Natalia will
> > have it relatively easy. [...] Being the offspring of the second most
> > powerful person on 3 planet's, sure gives one a leg up on that kind of
> > thing.
>
> Well, I dunno....
>
> After all, the Vorkosigan relationship with Gregor was
> there, and the Vorkosigan power (Regent, don't you know)
> was there when Elena was growing up. Before Miles
> ever leaves Barrayar in _WA_ he's already admitted
> that it's unfair Elena is as boxed in as she is.
Not at all -- when Elena was growing up, Aral was in an unsteady
position. He was a Regent with all of the problems associated with
that, his son was a mutant (when that was a more serious problem), he
had to deal with the aftermath of a civil war, plus an invasion by the
Ceta's. Instead of expending effort on the daughter of his Armsman, he
used it to make sure that his son would be able to inherit his position,
to fight off efforts to compel him to have anther kid and disinherit
Miles.
And other than a military career, I suspect that Elena could have become
just about anything she wanted -- not quite everything, but close enough
for all practical purposes.
> So, all those connections didn't help Elena.
>
> The Vorkosigan/Gregor/progressives aren't the problem.
> It's every one else.
In regards to something like this, Miles is in a much stronger position
than Aral was -- it's been more than 30 years, /he/ doesn't have to
worry about accusations that he doesn't intend to turn power over to
Gregor (who, instead of being a minor child that needs to be protected,
is a powerful ally).
J.B. Moreno
> Kate Nepveu <kate....@yale.edu> wrote in
Spoilers for ACC below...
> > Count's Choice, after all... IMO, this is a gun on the mantel
> > that should have been fired in _ACC_, and I'll be thrilled when
> > it finally is.
>
> I liked the Dono plot the way it was-- Count's Choice for Donna
> would have circumvented too many fun scenes (particularly those
> involving Ivan). Or were you thinking of a different woman being
> chosen as a Count?
IMO, Dono *is*, in part at least, an example of Count's Choice. It's
not as broad as one might like (although in it's own way it's even more
effective), but there. Part of his argument was that the previous Count
would have approved of his actions.
Alan Barclay
J.B. Moreno <pl...@newsreaders.com> wrote:
>Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote:
>
>> Jackson's Whole is still not fond of either brother. They
>> nurse grudges. And I keep waiting for the Terrence C
>> stuff to resurface, and just watch how that somehow
>> becomes Miles' fault. :-)
>
>Jackson's Whole only nurses grudges that aren't too expensive -- people
>that can and will bomb them out of existence are "too expensive" to hold
>grudges against if you can't return the favor.
I disagree. There are Jackson's Whole Barons who are not sane. Baron
Ryoval for example. Jackson's whole also has the technology to make
almost untracable punishments, for example Illyan's disease. Either
of these would give a reasonable explination for an attack.
Brenda W. Clough
I've often suggested that a streak of finely-honed sadism is a useful
trait in the author.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
Carol Flynt
"Michael S. Schiffer" wrote:
> Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote in
> news:3CE2F40E...@cflynt.com:
> >...
> > You think Miles has solved *all* his old problems?
> > *Boggle*. Well now, let's see: [starts counting on
> > fingers] In no particular order:
>
> > Ekaterin doesn't much like Barrayar as it is, and is now
> > as motivated as Cordelia to change it ... in ways I have
> > no doubt will embroil Miles in delightful dilemmas.
>
> I don't get the impression that Ekaterin wants to change worlds so
> much as carve out a space within one. (Note that its Miles who
> keeps trying to push her from gardener to planetary ecologist.) If
> anything, she deliberately circumscribed her responsibilities ("an
> Auditor's wife is *not* an assistant Auditor"). She's more
> reactive than active. If people attack her, they may get a nasty
> surprise (as in _Komarr_), but I suspect that she'll be even less
> interventionist than Cordelia.
Perhaps. That's a reasonable hypothesis. But I can't help
wondering what the addition of a daughter is going to do
to her.
Barrayar eats its daughters, too. Elena solved the problem by
leaving Barrayar. Ekaterin doesn't have that choice, anymore.
Carol Flynt
R. Tang
>are off. But I wouldn't be surprised if Miles' idiosyncratic
>biochemistry causes him yet more trouble where that's concerned.
Hmmm...what kind of trouble? Just to toss off a wild idea...what
if it's more effective for him than others? And it's known? (Note that
this isn;t necessarily an advantage, if he still retains a propensity
toward strokes or body ailments....)
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com
Carol Flynt
"J.B. Moreno" wrote:
> Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote:
>
> > Jackson's Whole is still not fond of either brother. They
> > nurse grudges. And I keep waiting for the Terrence C
> > stuff to resurface, and just watch how that somehow
> > becomes Miles' fault. :-)
>
> Jackson's Whole only nurses grudges that aren't too expensive -- people
> that can and will bomb them out of existence are "too expensive" to hold
> grudges against if you can't return the favor.
>
[nods] Yeah, that's true.
I was thinking, though, what being able to read minds could do
to The Deal, and the economy based on it.
And just how mad the Jacksonians would be about it.
That might make it worth their while to afford interplanetary
war.
Carol Flynt
James Nicoll
>On Wed, 15 May 2002 19:51:38 -0400, did Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com>,
>to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
>>"P. Korda" wrote:
>>> Mileage obviously varies, but I prefer it when authors don't make
>>> things too easy for their characters.
>>
>>I agree with you.
>>
>>Lois, however, has a strong reputation for *never* making
>>*anything* easy for her characters ... for long.
>
>Her plot gnerator has been described numerous times as:
>
>"Okay. What's the worst thing that can happen to these characters
>now?"
The boy is not fit to rule for reasons given.
However to make it more fun for Miles, the girl is a lot like him
but with the fine moral sense of Caligula and the interpersonal problem
resolution skills of Lucretia Borgia. Very likable, though.
Nancy Lebovitz
Ray <rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>Most developed countries are fairly close to (if not under) zero
>population growth. A whole lot of births are "accidents", or are simply
>the side-effect of sex without contraceptives.
>
>If an artificial womb becomes available, it'll be easy (and probably
>routine) for people to have themselves surgically sterilized (though I
>like the implant that Cordelia used -- it would be great for women to
>have the choice of having *no* period.)
Nice to have the choice.....but the health costs of no periods are
non-trivial. Last I heard, hormone replacement helps with hot flashes
but *not* heart attacks.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com 100 new slogans
I want to move to theory. Everything works in theory.
Chris Clayton
J.B. Moreno wrote:
> P. Korda wrote:
> > Kate Nepveu wrote:
> -snip-
> > >I'm hoping for Parenting Miles, myself, as the next big angst-inducing
> > >life change that Bujold writes about; I think Helen Natalia could be
> > >rather the handful for him.
> >
> > I'm particularly interested in how Miles, after
> > having known and loved assertive, dynamic women like Elli Quinn and Rowan
> > Durona (not to mention Taura!) will deal with raising a daughter in
> > sexist, repressive Barrayaran society.
>
> I expect that with a Da that is effectively both Count and Auditor, with
> "Uncle Gregor", not to mention her grandparents, that Helen Natalia will
> have it relatively easy.
And let's not forget her four Aunties Koudelka. Little Natalia
will have no lack at all for unsuitable role models. She may not
even realize that Barrayar *is* a sexist society until her early
adolescence.
--
Chris Clayton
cla...@di.org
Nancy Lebovitz
>to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
>>"P. Korda" wrote:
>>> Mileage obviously varies, but I prefer it when authors don't make
>>> things too easy for their characters.
>>
>>I agree with you.
>>
>>Lois, however, has a strong reputation for *never* making
>>*anything* easy for her characters ... for long.
>
>Her plot gnerator has been described numerous times as:
>
>"Okay. What's the worst thing that can happen to these characters
>now?"
IIRC, it's actually "What's the worst thing that these characters
can learn from?" That's certainly more consistant with much of
what happens in the books. It also suggests that Tien wasn't
capable of learning.
It'd be interesting if the current government of Barayar is overthown
in favor of democracy, and Miles has to learn to live as Just Some Guy.
Michael S. Schiffer
news:yKQE8.378$cw5.4...@monger.newsread.com:
> In article <abv29j$s...@boofura.swcp.com>, Taki Kogoma
> <qu...@swcp.com> wrote:
>...
>>Her plot gnerator has been described numerous times as:
>>"Okay. What's the worst thing that can happen to these
>>characters now?"
> IIRC, it's actually "What's the worst thing that these
> characters can learn from?" That's certainly more consistant
> with much of what happens in the books. It also suggests that
> Tien wasn't capable of learning.
I think it's just that Tien wasn't a central character. Not every
character is given the chance to learn. (Or, to put it another way,
their chances mostly happen offstage, and they often don't manage to
learn from them.) Antagonists often wind up dying without learning
much other than that it's surprisingly dangerous to cross one of the
major characters. (See Ges Vorrutyer, Vidal Vordarian, Ghem-general
Millisor, etc.)
> It'd be interesting if the current government of Barayar is
> overthown in favor of democracy, and Miles has to learn to live
> as Just Some Guy.
I don't think that's possible. Either he manages to stay important
in the government, or he's viewed by suspicion by the Republic and
kept under watch, or he's an exile. Miles Vorkosigan, nth in line to
the Imperial title, former Imperial auditor and former Count or
Count's proxy is not going to be treated as Just Some Guy by anyone
on Barrayar. Even if he becomes an exile on Beta Colony, he's still
an important exile.
P. Korda
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix1.netaxs.com> wrote:
>In article <abv29j$s...@boofura.swcp.com>, Taki Kogoma <qu...@swcp.com> wrote:
>>Her plot gnerator has been described numerous times as:
>>
>>"Okay. What's the worst thing that can happen to these characters
>>now?"
>
>IIRC, it's actually "What's the worst thing that these characters
>can learn from?" That's certainly more consistant with much of
>what happens in the books.
Yeah, I could come up with a long list of worse things to happen to
the characters than those things they've actually suffered, but most
of those things would either end the series outright, or completely
change the tone.
>It also suggests that Tien wasn't
>capable of learning.
Well, maybe not, but he was constructed that way. He HAD to die, so
that Miles could marry his wife. Did anybody really doubt that
Ekaterin would eventually end up as Lady Vorkosigan, from the moment
they met?
>It'd be interesting if the current government of Barayar is overthown
>in favor of democracy, and Miles has to learn to live as Just Some Guy.
That'd never happen. Miles would be one of the first up against the
wall, if there was a democratic revolution on Barrayar, and I think
there's have to be a violent revolution, in order to completely
dismantle the aristocracy in Miles' lifetime.
And even if he somehow escaped into exile, I really don't think he'd
ever end up as "just some guy." He'd find some other way of running
amok in the galaxy.
--
Pam Korda
kor2 @ midway.uchicago.edu
Home Page: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/
Book Log: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/booklog/
Carol Flynt
Chris Clayton wrote:
> And let's not forget her four Aunties Koudelka. Little Natalia
> will have no lack at all for unsuitable role models. She may not
> even realize that Barrayar *is* a sexist society until her early
> adolescence.
Unless she wants to join the military. Or wants a ministerial
post in the government. Or ...
What do you want to be when you grow up is a
question that could well launch her into conflict
with Barrayar, regardless of her family.
Even Miles admitted -- in surprise, to his credit -- that
he always thinks about being a (air)ship captain like
his father, not his mother.
Carol Flynt
J.B. Moreno
> "J.B. Moreno" wrote:
>
> > Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Jackson's Whole is still not fond of either brother. They
> > > nurse grudges. And I keep waiting for the Terrence C
> > > stuff to resurface, and just watch how that somehow
> > > becomes Miles' fault. :-)
> >
> > Jackson's Whole only nurses grudges that aren't too expensive -- people
> > that can and will bomb them out of existence are "too expensive" to hold
> > grudges against if you can't return the favor.
> >
>
> [nods] Yeah, that's true.
>
> I was thinking, though, what being able to read minds could do
> to The Deal, and the economy based on it.
>
> And just how mad the Jacksonians would be about it.
The most sensible reaction would be to ban telepaths from operating
inside their space -- which should be neither hard nor taken unduly by
others.
Not to mention, that The Deal is kept -- all a telepath would do would
be to give the other side an advantage (i.e. they'd know your lowest
price, and might be able to engage in a bit of blackmail to get you to
go bellow that).
J.B. Moreno
> Chris Clayton wrote:
>
> > And let's not forget her four Aunties Koudelka. Little Natalia
> > will have no lack at all for unsuitable role models. She may not
> > even realize that Barrayar *is* a sexist society until her early
> > adolescence.
>
> Unless she wants to join the military. Or wants a ministerial
> post in the government. Or ...
Both are almost certainly possible -- to her at least. I imagine that
Gregor could put anyone he liked into the military, just depends upon
how much force he wants to put behind it.
(Remember that the surprising thing about Miles being admitted wasn't
that he *was* it was the conditions under which he was admitted, and
those conditions were of his own choosing. A healthy girl would
probably be a lot easier to get admitted than Miles was. They might not
think a girl can hack it, but they think that mutants are downright
evil).
> What do you want to be when you grow up is a
> question that could well launch her into conflict
> with Barrayar, regardless of her family.
But with her family behind her, it's unlikely to be a conflict that
Barrayar can win.
> Even Miles admitted -- in surprise, to his credit -- that
> he always thinks about being a (air)ship captain like
> his father, not his mother.
That's due as much to her personality as to his culture.
P. Korda
Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote:
>"P. Korda" wrote:
>
>> Well, duh. I'm not saying that Miles at 32 ought to have the same
>> problems he had at 17. I'm saying that, now that he's solved all his
>> old problems, I'd like to see him develop some new ones which are
>> equally compelling.
>>
>> Mileage obviously varies, but I prefer it when authors don't make
>> things too easy for their characters.
>You think Miles has solved *all* his old problems?
>*Boggle*. Well now, let's see: [starts counting on
>fingers] In no particular order:
>
> Gregor still has no heirs, which puts Miles and his offspring
> very much on a hot seat he'd rather not be on, thanyouverymuch.
>
> Ivan is still unmarried, uncoupled, jealous and bored ...
>
> The counts still think him a mutant, and he's a powerful
> mutant, and they don't like it. And let's not forget
> that some of them are downright angry with him
> after the last Count's Council we saw in ACC.
>
> Ekaterin doesn't much like Barrayar as it is, and is now
> as motivated as Cordelia to change it ... in ways I have
> no doubt will embroil Miles in delightful dilemmas.
Huh. If I saw Ekaterin as the world-beating engine for social change
you see her as, I'd like her a lot more than I do. What makes you
think she's headed in that direction?
And I think Miles would be delighted if his reticent wife set out to
Change the World. He'd support her 100%. It might be a problem for
everybody else on Barrayar, but for Miles?
[snip more potential problems for Miles.]
This list actually demonstrates my point perfectly. All of these
problems of plot, not problems of character.
Carol Flynt
"J.B. Moreno" wrote:
> (Remember that the surprising thing about Miles being admitted wasn't
> that he *was* it was the conditions under which he was admitted, and
> those conditions were of his own choosing. A healthy girl would
> probably be a lot easier to get admitted than Miles was. They might not
> think a girl can hack it, but they think that mutants are downright
> evil).
>
Explain that to Drou. There are *no* females in the
Barrayaran military at the time of _DI_ The first
one to get in will be a controversy, with our without
Gregor's backing. And Gregor (for what I think
are prudent reasons) appears reluctant to use his
backing blatantly. We still don't know how he would
have voted on the two succession votes _ACC_
had things gone differently. As it is, he finessed with
abstentions.
> > What do you want to be when you grow up is a
> > question that could well launch her into conflict
> > with Barrayar, regardless of her family.
>
> But with her family behind her, it's unlikely to be a conflict that
> Barrayar can win.
On the other hand, with her family behind her, she is
more liable to be a bone of contention than someone
else's daughter.
The family position works both ways.
Carol Flynt
Carol Flynt
"P. Korda" wrote:
> In article <3CE2F40E...@cflynt.com>,
> Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote:
>
> > Ekaterin doesn't much like Barrayar as it is, and is now
> > as motivated as Cordelia to change it ... in ways I have
> > no doubt will embroil Miles in delightful dilemmas.
>
> Huh. If I saw Ekaterin as the world-beating engine for social change
> you see her as, I'd like her a lot more than I do. What makes you
> think she's headed in that direction?
>
Well, I may be projecting. :-)
It seems to me that Ekaterin is no longer the little romantic
mouse who kept a low profile in defense from her brothers,
and meekly did what a Good Girl is expected to do. She
has reached bottom, in exactly the same way Aral and
Cordelia did in the _Shards of Honor_ and _Barrayar_
stories -- she lost her honor in a Hobson's choice.
Once you've scraped bottom, and lost everything, you have
nothing to lose. When you then refind something valuable
enough to be lost, you are more willing to do more desperate
things to keep it, and to do so regardless of how it affects
others.
This is the new Ekaterin. She has already realized that things
*must* change, and has started it by changing things for herself.
She'll not be pushed around by anyone, including her husband.
(Which is what makes her such a perfect wife for Miles.)
Now add a daughter to look after, and I can see all kinds of
possiblities for Ekaterin to take things by storm ... her way.
> And I think Miles would be delighted if his reticent wife set out to
> Change the World. He'd support her 100%. It might be a problem for
> everybody else on Barrayar, but for Miles?
>
Ah. But her way will not be Miles' way. Cordelia and Aral
were much more aligned in their political views than Miles
and Ekaterin.
> This list actually demonstrates my point perfectly. All of these
> problems of plot, not problems of character.
True. I was discussing situations, which are by definition,
plot related. But what will make the plots interesting
is the character of those caught in the situations.
And Miles' character is changing from the Miles of
old. He's learning his own limitations, and while he's
also learning to accept them a bit, they still chafe.
I think the Worst Thing that Lois did to him by having
Gregor appoint him auditor was to shackle him
with power.
If that ain't a character study, I don't know what is.
Carol Flynt
Michael S. Schiffer
@cflynt.com:
>...
> Even Miles admitted -- in surprise, to his credit -- that
> he always thinks about being a (air)ship captain like
> his father, not his mother.
Though his head would explode if he ever had to be a captain like
his mother, with everyone expecting a Betan vote before any
important decisions. (And exercising the sort of Betan initiative
that Cordelia had to cope with in _Shards of Honor_.) The
Oserans' expectations regarding fringe benefits nearly drove him
nuts, and he quickly rewrote the rules to make them more like a
Barrayaran force organized as a for-profit corporation. Good luck
dealing with a shipful of Betans who wouldn't recognize a direct
order if it were printed out in triplicate with "Direct Order" in
128-point type across the top.
Especially if he were forced to reflect on the fact that these are
the folks who *beat* Barrayar in the only war the two polities ever
fought against one another.
SkyeFire
Korda) writes:
>
>I agree that the kids could be a great source of conflict in future
>Vorkosigan adventures. I'm particularly interested in how Miles, after
>having known and loved assertive, dynamic women like Elli Quinn and
>Rowan Durona (not to mention Taura!) will deal with raising a daughter
>in sexist, repressive Barrayaran society.
Plan A: "Elena? Hi, it's Miles. Could I maybe interest you in a
bodyguard/mentor posit-- Hello? Darn. Plan B it is."
Plan B: "Here's a stunner and a big stick. Have fun. And remember, the
plasma arc is only for *major* emergencies."
SkyeFire
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> writes:
>
>I suspect that one Worst Thing that could happen to Miles would be
>to discover that one of his children really doesn't have a burning
>drive to live up to any of his illustrious ancestors. Not a bad
>person or anything, just... average, and immune to the field around
>Miles that turns hard-luck cases into fleet commanders and
>gardeners into planetary ecologists and good home cooks into fully
>qualified chefs de cuisine. (In other words, someone who really
>fits most people's impression of Ivan.)
Heck, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see one of Miles's kids become
that way *deliberately,* in a fit of teenage rebellion. I've seen a few
teenagers dive headlong into hyper-mediocrity because they couldn't (or thought
they couldn't) live up to their parents' example: "Since I'm going to be a
disappointment to them *anyway,* I might as well give them something to be
*really* disappointed about." Heck, Miles himself could have gone that route,
had he been a bit more inclined to self-pity as opposed to
hyper-competitiveness.
Come to think of it, this might be part of an explanation for *Ivan* --
growing up in the shadows of such formiddable people, hiding inside his
wardrobe with a bottle might not have seemed like such a bad idea...
Mark Atwood
>
> Heck, I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see one of Miles's kids become
> that way *deliberately,* in a fit of teenage rebellion. I've seen a few
> teenagers dive headlong into hyper-mediocrity because they couldn't (or thought
> they couldn't) live up to their parents' example: "Since I'm going to be a
> disappointment to them *anyway,* I might as well give them something to be
> *really* disappointed about."
There was a bizaaro cartoon I saw a short while ago.
Scene: Middle-class and pissed off Mom and Dad in teen's messy
bedroom. Teen dressed as slacker on bed.
Parent: We did not spend our life savings on genius-level IQ genes for
*this*, no-sir-eee-bob!
Kid: Lighten up, Dad.
--
Mark Atwood | Well done is better than well said.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Dan Tilque
"Carol Flynt" <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote
>
> Explain that to Drou. There are *no* females in the
> Barrayaran military at the time of _DI_ The first
> one to get in will be a controversy, with our without
> Gregor's backing.
There was a women's auxiliary service formed sometime between the
events in _Barrayar_ and _The Vor Game_, since there were
Barrayaran women guards for Cavilo near the end of that book. But
obviously, the women in that service are restricted in what
positions they can have. The Barrayaran ships in DI still had
all-male crews.
> On the other hand, with her family behind her, she is
> more liable to be a bone of contention than someone
> else's daughter.
When she gets to 17 and is rejected for entry to the Imperial
Service Academy, she runs away from home and starts her own
mercenary fleet...
--
Dan Tilque
Louann Miller
wrote:
>
>
>"J.B. Moreno" wrote:
>
>> (Remember that the surprising thing about Miles being admitted wasn't
>> that he *was* it was the conditions under which he was admitted, and
>> those conditions were of his own choosing. A healthy girl would
>> probably be a lot easier to get admitted than Miles was. They might not
>> think a girl can hack it, but they think that mutants are downright
>> evil).
>>
>
>Explain that to Drou. There are *no* females in the
>Barrayaran military at the time of _DI_
Weren't there female auxilary Barrayarans under arms in "The Vor
Game"? Acting as Cavilo's "honor guard" while she got her medal for
"helping."
--
Over the last few weeks, Yahoo! has completely turned its
public image around from "respected net resource" to "hateful
money-grubbing spam merchants." Funny goal for a company to have.
Carol Flynt
Dan Tilque wrote:
> "Carol Flynt" <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote
> >
> > Explain that to Drou. There are *no* females in the
> > Barrayaran military at the time of _DI_ The first
> > one to get in will be a controversy, with our without
> > Gregor's backing.
>
> There was a women's auxiliary service formed sometime between the
> events in _Barrayar_ and _The Vor Game_, since there were
> Barrayaran women guards for Cavilo near the end of that book.
They were Barrayaran military? I thought they were part of
Randal's Mercenaries (or whatever the group was called
before Cavilo usuuped it.) There have been female
mercenaries throughout the Vorkosigan universe,
and of course, female military from other planets. Miles'
personal guard force from the Dendarii skewed
heavily to the female. (Elena, Elli, Taura ...)
But Barrayaran military?
Or do you mean females guarding her after The Day Is Won,
and she is now a prisoner? That I don't remember at all,
but ...
Carol (going to re-read _Vor Game_ ) Flynt
John Schilling
>"Carol Flynt" <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote
>> On the other hand, with her family behind her, she is
>> more liable to be a bone of contention than someone
>> else's daughter.
>When she gets to 17 and is rejected for entry to the Imperial
>Service Academy, she runs away from home and starts her own
>mercenary fleet...
No, no. The mercenary fleet is her sweet-sixteen present, to
one-up all her girlfriends whose parents got them sporty new
light-flyers. Miles will probably have a spare lying around
by then, and he will spoil his daughter rotten I suspect.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Rodrick Su
news:Xns9210996DB8A0...@130.133.1.4:
> Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote in news:3CE3E528.769C5526
> @cflynt.com:
> Especially if he were forced to reflect on the fact that these are
> the folks who *beat* Barrayar in the only war the two polities ever
> fought against one another.
Ah, but here is where the secret history that the novel have been privy
readers to. Barrayar deliberately throw the fight in a move to clean
house. It was, a bizarre coup staged by the emperor to remove his own son
from the line of succession, and remove the War Party in one stroke. They
really have no interest in subjuctating Escobar anyway (a populated planet
is not as easy to take as an empty planet).
Emperor Ezar and Aral Vorkosigan went into that war with intelligence they
don't shared with the rest of the command structure. Aral's sole job was
to insured that Serg Vorbara died, and he extract as many of Barrayar's
forces out as possible, a feat that won him eternal fan in battle tactic in
Tong.
--
[ Rodrick Su [ ]
[ r...@tigana.com [ I might be crazier than you think ]
Taki Kogoma
to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
>"Dan Tilque" <dti...@nwlink.com> writes:
>>"Carol Flynt" <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote
>>> On the other hand, with her family behind her, she is
>>> more liable to be a bone of contention than someone
>>> else's daughter.
>
>>When she gets to 17 and is rejected for entry to the Imperial
>>Service Academy, she runs away from home and starts her own
>>mercenary fleet...
>
>No, no. The mercenary fleet is her sweet-sixteen present, to
>one-up all her girlfriends whose parents got them sporty new
>light-flyers. Miles will probably have a spare lying around
>by then, and he will spoil his daughter rotten I suspect.
Too conventional.
I think Dan's closer to the mark, except that it's c. Natalia's
16th Birthday and she's on holiday on Beta Colony to visit great-
grandma Naismith when she bumps into Eli Quinn...
--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
quirk @ swcp.com | superior to what I have now."
Veteran of the '91 sf-lovers re-org. | -- Gym Quirk
Michael S. Schiffer
news:Xns92109CFCAE...@64.164.98.7:
> "Michael S. Schiffer" <msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote in
> news:Xns9210996DB8A0...@130.133.1.4:
>
>> Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote in news:3CE3E528.769C5526
>> @cflynt.com:
>> Especially if he were forced to reflect on the fact that these
>> are the folks who *beat* Barrayar in the only war the two
>> polities ever fought against one another.
Spoilers for _Shards of Honor_:
> Ah, but here is where the secret history that the novel have been
> privy readers to. Barrayar deliberately throw the fight in a move
> to clean house. It was, a bizarre coup staged by the emperor to
> remove his own son from the line of succession, and remove the War
> Party in one stroke. They really have no interest in subjuctating
> Escobar anyway (a populated planet is not as easy to take as an
> empty planet).
>...
Miles is apparently unaware of this, though. He knows that Serg was
a monster, but seems to believe Aral's story of "a lucky shot" taking
him out as late as (IIRC) _Memory_. That leaves him only with the
cover story-- which is true as far as it goes. If Barrayaran
intelligence had been less thorough, they'd really have been unaware
of the plasma mirrors, and the war would have gone much as it had.
The key to Aral's successful withdrawal lies with ImpSec rather than
with ImpMil proper. (Not that good intel isn't a component of
military might.) As far as Miles knows, Barrayar tried to invade
Escobar and was repulsed by a small Betan fleet, which included a
ship commanded by Captain Cordelia Naismith, BEF and crewed by a
bunch of highly unmilitary Betan citizens.
In any case, Ezar and Aral may have had no interest in subjugating
Escobar, but the War Party had plenty of support to draw from. As to
how difficult it would have been, we only know of unsuccessful
planetary conquests (other than Komarr, which we're told is a special
case). The Cetagandans must sometimes succeed, though, or they
wouldn't keep trying as they did with Barrayar and Marilac. (Or they
would be considered a belligerent nuisance rather than a feared
interstellar power.) By all indications, Escobar's independence was
dependent on Betan guarantees, since the only difficulty the
Barrayarans ran into was the Betan Expeditionary Force. Whether the
Escobarans could have thrown the Barrayarans out later is another
question.
Ray
"J.B. Moreno" <pl...@newsreaders.com> wrote in message
news:1fca4ul.1yuj21m1gyz6pnN%pl...@newsreaders.com...
> Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote:
>
> > Chris Clayton wrote:
> >
> > > And let's not forget her four Aunties Koudelka. Little Natalia
> > > will have no lack at all for unsuitable role models. She may not
> > > even realize that Barrayar *is* a sexist society until her early
> > > adolescence.
> >
> > Unless she wants to join the military. Or wants a ministerial
> > post in the government. Or ...
>
> Both are almost certainly possible -- to her at least. I imagine that
> Gregor could put anyone he liked into the military, just depends upon
> how much force he wants to put behind it.
>
> (Remember that the surprising thing about Miles being admitted wasn't
> that he *was* it was the conditions under which he was admitted, and
> those conditions were of his own choosing. A healthy girl would
> probably be a lot easier to get admitted than Miles was. They might
not
> think a girl can hack it, but they think that mutants are downright
> evil).
Barracks life wouldn't be for her, but she would be an *officer*,
anyhow.
I can readily see her getting a position in ImpSec -- especially covert
ops. If she stays on Barryar, who would suspect her of being covert
ops?
Ray
Ray
"Nancy Lebovitz" <na...@unix1.netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:2zQE8.377$cw5.4...@monger.newsread.com...
> In article <cDDE8.31048$Ze4.3...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,
> Ray <rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >Most developed countries are fairly close to (if not under) zero
> >population growth. A whole lot of births are "accidents", or are
simply
> >the side-effect of sex without contraceptives.
> >
> >If an artificial womb becomes available, it'll be easy (and probably
> >routine) for people to have themselves surgically sterilized (though
I
> >like the implant that Cordelia used -- it would be great for women to
> >have the choice of having *no* period.)
>
> Nice to have the choice.....but the health costs of no periods are
> non-trivial. Last I heard, hormone replacement helps with hot flashes
> but *not* heart attacks.
I suspect that the heart attack/breast cancer issue can be handled, too.
Ray
Carol Flynt
"Michael S. Schiffer" wrote:
> Spoilers for _Shards of Honor_:
>
>
>
>
> Miles is apparently unaware of this, though. He knows that Serg was
> a monster, but seems to believe Aral's story of "a lucky shot" taking
> him out as late as (IIRC) _Memory_. That leaves him only with the
> cover story-- which is true as far as it goes.
>
You know, I never grokked this -- that Miles didn't know
the complete story. Each time I've read _The Vor Game,_
and Gregor runs away after learning about the truth about
his father, I thought he had found out the *full* truth,
not just the awful truth.
No that you point it out to me, though, I realize that it was
never explicitly stated.
So, one of the Worst Things that could happen to Gregor/Aral/
Miles could be Gregor finding out he has Aral to thank
for his father's death.
And yes, he would be thankful in a way, but ...
Carol (wow!) Flynt
Emma Pease
Aral opposed the invasion before he was brought in on the secret
intelligence as he believed they would lose the war in the long run.
The secret intelligence that Beta Colony had a new weapon only
shortened the predicted time to defeat. Ezar and Aral staging the
loss only quickened the defeat and curtailed the losses, they did not
change the eventual outcome.
30 years later Barrayar has changed but Beta still has more economic
and intellectual might and can call upon its allies for aid. I don't
think Barrayar would win a war with Beta even now (DI time).
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Lee Ann Rucker
<rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
> > Both are almost certainly possible -- to her at least. I imagine that
> > Gregor could put anyone he liked into the military, just depends upon
> > how much force he wants to put behind it.
> >
> > (Remember that the surprising thing about Miles being admitted wasn't
> > that he *was* it was the conditions under which he was admitted, and
> > those conditions were of his own choosing. A healthy girl would
> > probably be a lot easier to get admitted than Miles was. They might
> not
> > think a girl can hack it, but they think that mutants are downright
> > evil).
Wild idea - what if the girl who wants into the military is *Gregor's*
daughter? No reason why he shouldn't have one, once the required male
heir is born.
Brenda W. Clough
If he's a prudent royal, he and Laisa will engender a good few
offspring. Even Charles and Di knew that you want at least an heir and
a spare, and with the uterine replicator technology there's no reason
for the Imperial family not to have a couple daughters as well to have
on hand for alliances.
Brenda
--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html
My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/
J.B. Moreno
> "J.B. Moreno" wrote:
>
> > (Remember that the surprising thing about Miles being admitted wasn't
> > that he *was* it was the conditions under which he was admitted, and
> > those conditions were of his own choosing. A healthy girl would
> > probably be a lot easier to get admitted than Miles was. They might not
> > think a girl can hack it, but they think that mutants are downright
> > evil).
>
> Explain that to Drou.
Drou was from Ezar's rule, and even then -- she wasn't military, but she
was in effect ImpSec.
> There are *no* females in the Barrayaran military at the time of _DI_ The
> first one to get in will be a controversy, with our without Gregor's
> backing.
Controversial, yes, unable to do so -- that's something else.
> And Gregor (for what I think are prudent reasons) appears reluctant to use
> his backing blatantly. We still don't know how he would have voted on the
> two succession votes _ACC_ had things gone differently. As it is, he
> finessed with abstentions.
Females in the military are not something that he will need to run past
the Council of Counts first.
> > > What do you want to be when you grow up is a question that could well
> > > launch her into conflict with Barrayar, regardless of her family.
> >
> > But with her family behind her, it's unlikely to be a conflict that
> > Barrayar can win.
>
> On the other hand, with her family behind her, she is
> more liable to be a bone of contention than someone
> else's daughter.
>
> The family position works both ways.
Well, that's certainly true.
Dan Tilque
"Carol Flynt" <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote
> >
> > There was a women's auxiliary service formed sometime between
> > the events in _Barrayar_ and _The Vor Game_, since there were
> > Barrayaran women guards for Cavilo near the end of that book.
>
> and she is now a prisoner? That I don't remember at all,
> but ...
That's what I mean. The textev is:
As Miles waited, he saw Commander Cavilo arrive with her
Barrayaran honor guard. As far as he knew, the Vervani were not
yet aware that the honor-guard's weapons were lethally chaged and
they had orders to shoot to kill if their prisoner attempted
escape. Two hard-faced women in Barrayaran auxiliary uniforms
made sure Cavilo was watched both night and day. Cavilo did a
good job of ignoring their presence.
--
Dan Tilque
Dan Tilque
"Taki Kogoma" <qu...@swcp.com> wrote
> On 16 May 2002 15:01:56 -0700, did schi...@spock.usc.edu (John
Schilling),
> to rec.arts.sf.written decree...
> >"Dan Tilque" <dti...@nwlink.com> writes:
> >
> >>When she gets to 17 and is rejected for entry to the Imperial
> >>Service Academy, she runs away from home and starts her own
> >>mercenary fleet...
> >
> >No, no. The mercenary fleet is her sweet-sixteen present, to
> >one-up all her girlfriends whose parents got them sporty new
> >light-flyers. Miles will probably have a spare lying around
> >by then, and he will spoil his daughter rotten I suspect.
>
> Too conventional.
>
> I think Dan's closer to the mark, except that it's c. Natalia's
> 16th Birthday and she's on holiday on Beta Colony to visit
great-
> grandma Naismith when she bumps into Eli Quinn...
... who is down on her luck and about to have her fleet
repossessed by some guy named Calhoun. As it happens, Natalia's
16th birthday gift was the ownership of some family lands.
Well-watered lands, only 300 Km from the capital[1]. She talks
Calhoun into taking a mortgage on the property in lieu of the
fleet ...
--
Dan Tilque
[1] And they don't even glow in the dark any more.
Garrett Fitzgerald
@cflynt.com:
> I was thinking, though, what being able to read minds could do
> to The Deal, and the economy based on it.
ObB5: PsyCorps.
Carol Flynt
Dan Tilque wrote:
> "Carol Flynt" <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote
> > >
> > > There was a women's auxiliary service formed sometime between
> > > the events in _Barrayar_ and _The Vor Game_, since there were
> > > Barrayaran women guards for Cavilo near the end of that book.
> >
> > Or do you mean females guarding her after The Day Is Won,
> > and she is now a prisoner? That I don't remember at all,
> > but ...
>
> That's what I mean. The textev is:
>
Ok. It didn't register, any of the times I read it.
I admit I'll be disappointed if it turns out the Miles' children
don't have problems with Barrayar. So I hope this
was an aberration forced on the military because of
old-fashined (sexist?) sensibilities.
But in so hoping, I must now admit I may be ignoring
the fictional facts.
Carol (how annoying!) Flynt
J.B. Moreno
-snip-
> I admit I'll be disappointed if it turns out the Miles' children don't
> have problems with Barrayar. So I hope this was an aberration forced on
> the military because of old-fashined (sexist?) sensibilities.
>
> But in so hoping, I must now admit I may be ignoring the fictional
> facts.
Well, they will have /some/ problems -- but they will be more annoyances
and obstacles than walls. Admiral Helen Vorkosigan is going to have
people that think she only got her job because she was boffing the right
guy or because her uncle is the Emperor, she's going to have people that
don't like the fact that her Da is an ugly little mutant (and who knows
what she is hiding up her gene tree).
What she's not going to have is people saying "Even though this job is
your hearts desire, it's forever out of your reach because you're a
woman".
It's already been what, 35 years since Aral first took over? And Gregor
will have been continuing his basic policies for an additional 20 -- I
wouldn't be a bit surprised if by the time she wants to be in the
military that women are old hat.
Michael S. Schiffer
news:3CE47076...@erols.com:
>...
> If he's a prudent royal, he and Laisa will engender a good few
> offspring. Even Charles and Di knew that you want at least an
> heir and a spare, and with the uterine replicator technology
> there's no reason for the Imperial family not to have a couple
> daughters as well to have on hand for alliances.
Given that Gregor insisted on a love match for himself, I think it
would be out of character for him to engender daughters with the intent
of deliberately trying to forge political alliances. If it happens, it
happens, and "it's just as easy to fall in love with a Count's heir",
but I doubt that he and Laisa will be all that cold-blooded beyond the
immediate need to provide a Vorbarra successor. (Which isn't to say
that there won't be any plots stemming from his or Miles' children
falling for someone either apparently or actually unsuitable.)
Parental authority in arranging marriages is surprisingly absent in the
High Vor circles in which they travel, though it's stronger lower down
in the social ladder. (Or was a decade ago. Ekaterin wasn't *forced*
to marry Tien, but there was clearly some social and family pressure.)
Onno Meyer
>Explain that to Drou. There are *no* females in the
>Barrayaran military at the time of _DI_
>Carol Flynt
Wasn't there a Women's Auxiliary as of _TWA_?
--
* Onno Meyer - Kastanienallee 40 - 26121 Oldenburg - Deutschland *
* e-mail: Onno....@informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE *
Susan Stepney
news:YcRE8.54$s4....@news.uchicago.edu:
> In article <yKQE8.378$cw5.4...@monger.newsread.com>,
> Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix1.netaxs.com> wrote:
>
>>It also suggests that Tien wasn't capable of learning.
>
> Well, maybe not, but he was constructed that way. He HAD to die, so
> that Miles could marry his wife. Did anybody really doubt that
> Ekaterin would eventually end up as Lady Vorkosigan, from the moment
> they met?
>
Given the Wimsey/Vane parallels, I was surprised it happened so fast,
though.
--
_____________________________________________________________________
Susan Stepney tel +44 1223 254890 step...@logica.com
Logica UK Ltd, Betjeman House, 104 Hills Road, Cambridge, CB2 1LQ, UK
http://public.logica.com/~stepneys/ http://www.logica.com/
Mysterious Galaxy
DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY and other Miles titles, it's great fun to come
here and see all of the speculation on what might lie in store for
Miles and co. Lois said she is working on the next CHALION novel and
will be doing so through the fall, and isn't sure what direction a new
Vorkosigan novel might take after that. She did mention she is
thinking of giving Miles a bit of a rest, and perhaps working with
Ivan for a change, but no specific plans have been laid.
Maryelizabeth
Kate Nepveu
> Lois said she is working on the next CHALION novel and
> will be doing so through the fall, and isn't sure what direction a new
> Vorkosigan novel might take after that. She did mention she is
> thinking of giving Miles a bit of a rest, and perhaps working with
> Ivan for a change, but no specific plans have been laid.
Oooh. The reward for a job well done? That would be fun.
Kate
--
http://www.steelypips.org/elsewhere.html -- kate....@yale.edu
Paired Reading Page; Book Reviews; Outside of a Dog: A Book Log
"I awoke this morning with devout thanksgiving for my friends."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
Judith Trummer
>> Even Miles admitted -- in surprise, to his credit -- that
>> he always thinks about being a (air)ship captain like
>> his father, not his mother.
Well, they were different kinds of captains. Miles wanted the Great
Military Man shoot-em-up captaincy when he was a kid, not the
boldly-go-where-no-one-has-gone-before jumpship captaincy like Cordelia
had. Yeah, she was briefly in the war, but that wasn't the point of her
career -- she was an explorer. Which might appeal to some people
(raises hand), but not to a military-mad boy on Barrayar so much.
Judith Trummer
> I admit I'll be disappointed if it turns out the Miles' children
> don't have problems with Barrayar.
Lois is writing these books. They'll have problems.
Judith Trummer
> In article <cDDE8.31048$Ze4.3...@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,
> Ray <rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Most developed countries are fairly close to (if not under) zero
>>population growth. A whole lot of births are "accidents", or are simply
>>the side-effect of sex without contraceptives.
>>
>>If an artificial womb becomes available, it'll be easy (and probably
>>routine) for people to have themselves surgically sterilized (though I
>>like the implant that Cordelia used -- it would be great for women to
>>have the choice of having *no* period.)
> Nice to have the choice.....but the health costs of no periods are
> non-trivial. Last I heard, hormone replacement helps with hot flashes
> but *not* heart attacks.
This is veering off-topic, but there are hormone regimens now that
result in no (or rare) periods that don't seem to have heart attacks as
a side effect. Early menopause would be a very blunt tool indeed, but
there are other ways to avoid periods. I'm on depo-provera, which has
some side effects, but stops periods entirely the majority of the time.
I'm sure by the distant future, there'd be better ways with fewer risks.
Cordelia's implant sounds like a great idea to me..
Judith Trummer
> Ah. But her way will not be Miles' way. Cordelia and Aral
> were much more aligned in their political views than Miles
> and Ekaterin.
Hmm. This I don't see. Miles and Ekaterin are both Vor, and they both
respect that in a way that Cordelia never did. I haven't seen them have
a political disagreement yet -- what views do you have in mind?
P. Korda
Susan Stepney <step...@logica.com> wrote:
>ko...@midway.uchicago.edu (P. Korda) wrote in
>news:YcRE8.54$s4....@news.uchicago.edu:
>> that Miles could marry his wife. Did anybody really doubt that
>> Ekaterin would eventually end up as Lady Vorkosigan, from the moment
>> they met?
>
>Given the Wimsey/Vane parallels, I was surprised it happened so fast,
>though.
I think people overestimate the strength of this "parallel."
Certainly, some of Bujold's style, especially when it comes to
dialogue, is influenced by Sayers, but when it comes to plot and
character development, she's doing her own thing.
IMO, this is 100% good. Bujold is an excellent author in her own
right[1], and I'd hate to see her jettison originality in order to
write Lord Peter Wimsey In Space.
[1] Personally, I think she's a better author than Sayers was, but
people tell me I haven't been reading the right Sayers...
--
Pam Korda
kor2 @ midway.uchicago.edu
Home Page: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/
Book Log: http://home.uchicago.edu/~kor2/booklog/
Chris Clayton
Carol Flynt wrote:
>
> Chris Clayton wrote:
>
> > And let's not forget her four Aunties Koudelka. Little Natalia
> > will have no lack at all for unsuitable role models. She may not
> > even realize that Barrayar *is* a sexist society until her early
> > adolescence.
>
> Unless she wants to join the military. Or wants a ministerial
> post in the government. Or ...
Oh, all these things would surely make her realize exactly
what Barrayar is, no error there. But you don't generally
start thinking seriously along these lines, the sort of thinking
that includes plans and how to handle obstacles, until you're
past early adolescence (12-14, say). In this company, her
childhood could escape rubbing her nose in her gender. Miles
isn't Sergeant Bothari, Natalia isn't Elena.
> What do you want to be when you grow up is a
> question that could well launch her into conflict
> with Barrayar, regardless of her family.
Absolutely. But it's at least possible (remember, I said
"may not realize", not "will not realize") that she wouldn't
be career planning at that level before she's fifteen or sixteen.
--
Chris Clayton
cla...@di.org
R. Tang
Jon Meltzer <jmel...@pobox.com> wrote:
>On 17 May 2002 11:12:04 -0700, publ...@mystgalaxy.com (Mysterious
>Galaxy) wrote:
>
>>She did mention she is
>>thinking of giving Miles a bit of a rest, and perhaps working with
>>Ivan for a change
>
>
>"Ivan Vorpatril - Agent of Barrayar" ... :-)
On Athos.....
--
-
-Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
- Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue [NEW URL][Yes, it IS new]
- http://www.aatrevue.com
Craig Richardson
Moreno) wrote:
>It's already been what, 35 years since Aral first took over? And Gregor
>will have been continuing his basic policies for an additional 20 -- I
>wouldn't be a bit surprised if by the time she wants to be in the
>military that women are old hat.
By all accounts, Jackie Robinson was not the best ballplayer among
1940s Negro Leaguers. By demonstrated ability, Miles was probably not
the best officer among Barrayayaran mutants when he was admitted to
the Academy. The trailblazer has to be exceptional in ways that don't
show up on aptitude tests. And there's little tolerance for failure -
if the first one washes out, it'll set the timetable back years. I
wouldn't be surprised if the right candidate hasn't shown herself in
the next eighteen T-years, and the stakes are too high for the
progressives to back the wrong candidate.
--Craig
--
Hacking the shins is God's way of telling you to stop hogging the ball.
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>Chris Clayton wrote:
>
>> And let's not forget her four Aunties Koudelka. Little Natalia
>> will have no lack at all for unsuitable role models. She may not
>> even realize that Barrayar *is* a sexist society until her early
>> adolescence.
>
>Unless she wants to join the military. Or wants a ministerial
>post in the government. Or ...
Do we know that Barrayar is going to maintain an all-male military
forever?
--
Pete McCutchen
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>> YMMV; I like Ekaterin, but then I think I evaluate "am I happy to see
>> this character" more on the "do I like this person" level than you (or
>> in addition to "are interesting things likely to happen around this
>> person").
>
>I very much like Ekaterin. And I don't think anyone on or
>related to Barrayar, including Miles, has quite figured out
>that she's every bit as explosive as Cordelia.
>
>She did not have a role worthy of her in _DI_, but really, it was
>a Miles story, not an Ekaterin story.
I liked _Diplomatic Immunity_, though I would put it in the same box
as other "lighter" Miles books, but I think that making it a purely
Miles book was a bit of a flaw. I'd have preferred it if Bujold had
made both Miles and Ekaterin viewpoint characters. If nothing else, I
would have liked to have had her viewpoint at the end, rather than
hearing about what she did when Miles was not observing.
--
Pete McCutchen
Craig Richardson
wrote:
To be fair, Aral "declaiming revolution in iambic pentameter"
Vorkosigan was ... unusually receptive to Betan ideals than possibly
any other Barrayaran male of his age and class. Remember, it was Aral
who suggested gutting the anti-Vor faction by making everybody Vor,
thus ending the argument for all time. He's part Betan himself, after
all...
J.B. Moreno
> pl...@newsreaders.com (J.B. Moreno) wrote:
>
> >It's already been what, 35 years since Aral first took over? And Gregor
> >will have been continuing his basic policies for an additional 20 -- I
> >wouldn't be a bit surprised if by the time she wants to be in the
> >military that women are old hat.
>
> By all accounts, Jackie Robinson was not the best ballplayer among
> 1940s Negro Leaguers. By demonstrated ability, Miles was probably not
> the best officer among Barrayayaran mutants when he was admitted to
> the Academy.
I don't know about the first, but for the later, I'd say you're most
likely wrong -- there aren't a lot of mutants to be admitted, as most of
them were killed.
> The trailblazer has to be exceptional in ways that don't show up on
> aptitude tests. And there's little tolerance for failure - if the first
> one washes out, it'll set the timetable back years. I wouldn't be
> surprised if the right candidate hasn't shown herself in the next eighteen
> T-years, and the stakes are too high for the progressives to back the
> wrong candidate.
I think it's quite likely that they have been looking for the right
candidate for the last 30 years (ever since Aral took over). Given
another 20 years (and the textev that they already have a
WAC-equivalent) I think it's stretching things a bit to think they won't
have someone before Helen is old enough to be the ground breaker.
Mike Schilling
"Jon Meltzer" <jonme...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:pioaeugocisjptfaa...@4ax.com...
> On 17 May 2002 19:35:17 GMT, gwan...@u.washington.edu (R. Tang)
> wrote:
>
>
> >>"Ivan Vorpatril - Agent of Barrayar" ... :-)
> >
> > On Athos.....
>
> there ...
Some time after.
"Ivan, I think Barrayar and Athos can become close allies, and this talk
we've had today is a great first step. To thank you, I'd like to introduce
you to a friend of mine. I think the two of you will really hit it off. I
trust that younger Barrayrans aren't as prudish as your elders are rumored
to be. Here on Athos, we think that if two people really find each other
attractive, they have the right to enjoy each other. I think by that smile
that you agree."
Mike Schilling
news:upqaeug96t6lekiol...@4ax.com...
> By all accounts, Jackie Robinson was not the best ballplayer among
> 1940s Negro Leaguers.
I tend to think this overstated; Jackie Robinson was one hell of a baseball
player.
What Negro Leaguers of the same age (Robinson was, what, 28 in 1947?) were
better?
Heather Garvey
>
>If nothing else, I
>would have liked to have had her viewpoint at the end, rather than
>hearing about what she did when Miles was not observing.
Yeah, the book was like that Far Side cartoon - a blackboard
full of complex equations "... and then a miracle happens ...." THE END.
("Um, whuh? Did I...miss a...chap-" <flipflipflip> "Nnnooo....
Huh. Well, I guess...we're...done?")
Didn't ruin the book for me, but I still have a vague unsettled
feeling like I skipped ahead to the end.
--
Heather Garvey "The school has lost its funding for textbooks, so
ra...@xnet.com you've all been given wildlife survival manuals.
Today you'll be quizzed on how to skin a moose."
-- Miss Bitters, _Invader ZIM_
Jerry Brown
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>Carol Flynt <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote in news:3CE3E528.769C5526
>@cflynt.com:
>>...
>> Even Miles admitted -- in surprise, to his credit -- that
>> he always thinks about being a (air)ship captain like
>> his father, not his mother.
>
>Though his head would explode if he ever had to be a captain like
>his mother, with everyone expecting a Betan vote before any
>important decisions. (And exercising the sort of Betan initiative
>that Cordelia had to cope with in _Shards of Honor_.) The
>Oserans' expectations regarding fringe benefits nearly drove him
>nuts, and he quickly rewrote the rules to make them more like a
>Barrayaran force organized as a for-profit corporation. Good luck
>dealing with a shipful of Betans who wouldn't recognize a direct
>order if it were printed out in triplicate with "Direct Order" in
>128-point type across the top.
>
>Especially if he were forced to reflect on the fact that these are
>the folks who *beat* Barrayar in the only war the two polities ever
>fought against one another.
However, Barrayar did alright with regards to fringe benefits, in that
the planet where Cordelia met Aral ended up named Sergyar rather than
Gamma Colony.
I've always been surprised that nothing more was made of this point,
since ISTR that Cordelia's ship arrived there first.
Jerry Brown
--
A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
Carol Flynt
Judith Trummer wrote:
One of Miles' weaknesses, which almost cost him
Ekaterin at that, is that he doesn't really understand
*people.* He doesn't deal with the personal, very
often -- he deals with the galactic, the political,
the economic ...
Oh, he has his moments (Mountains of Morning.) But he
is so full of the grand-scale possibilities, that he sometimes
(hell, most of the time) sort of trods over the individuals
instead of just pushing them onward. Those who have
managed to stop him in his tracks (Mark, just to
use one example) tend to use super-heavy
clues-by-four.
Ekaterin, on the other hand, sees everything from the
personal, from the small-scale. Something is wrong
because it hurts her, her family, her son ...
She can, and does, extrapolate from the personal,
but it starts there, and she always returns there.
When I said they have different political views,
I mean the wider sense of political that encompasses
interaction between individuals, nost just
the interaction between individuals and the
government.
Carol Flynt
Paul F. Dietz
> This is veering off-topic, but there are hormone regimens now that
> result in no (or rare) periods [...]
ObSF: EtQ
Paul
Carol Flynt
Chris Clayton wrote:
> Carol Flynt wrote:
> >
> > What do you want to be when you grow up is a
> > question that could well launch her into conflict
> > with Barrayar, regardless of her family.
>
> Absolutely. But it's at least possible (remember, I said
> "may not realize", not "will not realize") that she wouldn't
> be career planning at that level before she's fifteen or sixteen.
>
Well, I come from a far less militaristic and sexist society
than Barrayar, and I stumbled against it at age 6.
I wanted to be an astronaut (after I realized that
"klutzy ballerina" just didn't work.) No, I don't think I
had the word, yet, but I knew that I was going
to go the moon.
Most adults of my acquaintance made noises about
that being nice, dear, and encouraged me to do
other things. (Nurse, that would be good, yea.)
And at age 10, when I was walking away with all
the science prizes, the school(s) bent over backwards
to steer me towards letters, instead.
Insidious thing, culture. Barrayar's culture is far
worse (in regards to sexism) [1] than 1950-60 US.
I think it will be surprising if she doesn't trip against
Barrayar earlier, rather than later.
Carol (Hi! Chris. Love to Becca) Flynt
[1] Keep in mind, Ekaterin lost guardianship of her
own son automatically when her husband died.
*That's* pretty sexist, and certainly puts women
in their place ...
phil hunt
There's always the option of a sex-change. Natalia becomes Nathan.
--
<"><"><"> Philip Hunt <ph...@comuno.freeserve.co.uk> <"><"><">
"I would guess that he really believes whatever is politically
advantageous for him to believe."
-- Alison Brooks, referring to Michael
Portillo, on soc.history.what-if
Paul F. Dietz
> Yeah, the book was like that Far Side cartoon - a blackboard
> full of complex equations "... and then a miracle happens ...." THE END.
That was S. Harris, not the guy who does 'The Far Side'.
Paul
Alan Barclay
Jerry Brown <je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> wrote:
>I've always been surprised that nothing more was made of this point,
>since ISTR that Cordelia's ship arrived there first.
>
No, Barrayar had been occupying Sergyar long enough to build an
extensive base, enough to use as a forward base in the war,
while Cordelia's exhibition had barely started.
Gareth Wilson
> I don't know about the first, but for the later, I'd say you're most
> likely wrong -- there aren't a lot of mutants to be admitted, as most of
> them were killed.
It's interesting that in the books we've only seen two Barrayarans who fit the
proper description of a mutant.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gareth Wilson
Christchurch
New Zealand
http://www.gareth.wilson.name/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rodrick Su
news:bpgF8.222$Dv5.16...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com:
There were at least two other players in the Negro league that were scouted
before Robinson. Satchel Paige, arguably the greatest Negro League pitcher
has questionable personal life as well as being much older than Branch
Rickey (Dodgers GM) would've wanted. Josh Gibson, a hell of a home run
hitter has both mental and health problem that ultimately killed him before
his time.
Robinson was the first four letter man of UCLA. He served in WWII with
distinction. It was that, plus his talent that made him the ultimate
choice.
--
[ Rodrick Su [ ]
[ r...@tigana.com [ I might be crazier than you think ]
Ray
"Jerry Brown" <je...@jwbrown.co.uk.RemoveThisBitToReply> wrote in
message news:7u4beuk0of5mth6ig...@4ax.com...
No.
Actually, Barryar had that big ammo dump in a cave long before
Cordelia's ship landed. They had essentially taken possession of the
planet, and were legitimately ejecting the interlopers.
Of course, they should very well have been more polite about it.
Ray Drouillard
Ray
"Carol Flynt" <ca...@cflynt.com> wrote in message
news:3CE59EC3...@cflynt.com...
>
>
> Chris Clayton wrote:
>
> > Carol Flynt wrote:
> > >
> > > What do you want to be when you grow up is a
> > > question that could well launch her into conflict
> > > with Barrayar, regardless of her family.
> >
> > Absolutely. But it's at least possible (remember, I said
> > "may not realize", not "will not realize") that she wouldn't
> > be career planning at that level before she's fifteen or sixteen.
> >
>
> Well, I come from a far less militaristic and sexist society
> than Barrayar, and I stumbled against it at age 6.
> I wanted to be an astronaut (after I realized that
> "klutzy ballerina" just didn't work.) No, I don't think I
> had the word, yet, but I knew that I was going
> to go the moon.
>
> Most adults of my acquaintance made noises about
> that being nice, dear, and encouraged me to do
> other things. (Nurse, that would be good, yea.)
> And at age 10, when I was walking away with all
> the science prizes, the school(s) bent over backwards
> to steer me towards letters, instead.
>
> Insidious thing, culture. Barrayar's culture is far
> worse (in regards to sexism) [1] than 1950-60 US.
>
> I think it will be surprising if she doesn't trip against
> Barrayar earlier, rather than later.
Remember that she won't necessarily be going to "public school". Also,
there will be quite a few women around her that have rewarding
"careers".
>
> Carol (Hi! Chris. Love to Becca) Flynt
>
> [1] Keep in mind, Ekaterin lost guardianship of her
> own son automatically when her husband died.
> *That's* pretty sexist, and certainly puts women
> in their place ...
That law is already touted as being obsolete. It is based on conditions
in the age of isolation.
Things have changed quite a bit in the past thirty years. I expect
quite a bit of change in the next fifteen or so years that it'll take
for Helen to start some serious career planning.
The gender roles changed quite rapidly in America, and we don't have a
"galactic role model". Beta Colony is definitely having an effect on
Barryar. I expect that Komarr will also have an effect -- with Liasa as
empress.
I just had a thought (I know... run and hide!)
Sergyar is a new colony, and is being run by Aral and Cordelia. I would
be willing to bet that the gender roles there will be a whole lot closer
to those at Beta Colony/Komarr/Earth than at Barryar. They essentially
have a golden opportunity to set the pace for a new culture.
If Helen feels cramped by Barryar, she can always move in with Grandma
and Grandpa.
Ray Drouillard