SF catering to crude basal female fantasies

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Captain Button

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Nov 2, 2002, 9:15:16 AM11/2/02
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I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.

So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?


Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?


Possible reasons for the latter:

A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.

B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF about
them.

C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about them,
but it doesn't get published.

Discuss.

--
American Express says I'm deceased. Boo! Consider yourself haunted.
Captain Button - but...@io.com

Joe Mason

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Nov 2, 2002, 9:24:31 AM11/2/02
to
In article <B9E948249...@0.0.0.0>, Captain Button wrote:
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?

I'm sure there must be bodice-rippers set in space. They have them set
everywhere else.

Joe

Karl M. Syring

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Nov 2, 2002, 10:09:08 AM11/2/02
to
"Captain Button" <but...@io.com> schrieb

> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
>
> Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
>
>
> Possible reasons for the latter:
>
> A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
>
> B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF
about
> them.
>
> C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about
them,
> but it doesn't get published.
>
> Discuss.

Did you ever have a look at those magazines targeted at women? One of
the immortal motives seem to be courses in amateur psychology "How do I
identify my Prince Charming?". Next, there is "How can I teach him
socially acceptable behavior?". Hey, it just does not work that way
gals.

Karl M. Syring


Mark Blunden

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Nov 2, 2002, 11:01:16 AM11/2/02
to
Captain Button wrote:
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?

Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold, based as it is on that tired "Planet
of Amazon Men" cliche.

Alright, I'm lying.

--
Mark.

* Why make trillions when we could make... billions?

Htn963

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Nov 2, 2002, 11:08:10 AM11/2/02
to
Captain Button wrote:

>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?

Haven't read them but from what I kept hearing the Hamilton's Anita Blake
books fit the bill.

And I've noticed that Cherryh, subconsciously or not, seems to get a kick
of portraying intimate relationships, consensual or otherwise, between older
women and young males: Ari1/Justin in _Cyteen_; Mallory/Talley in _Downbelow
Station_; Morgaine/Vanye in the Morgaine series.


--
Ht

|Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore
never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
--John Donne, "Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions"|

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 11:34:19 AM11/2/02
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In article <aq0qv9$5ek6e$1...@ID-7529.news.dfncis.de>,

Karl M. Syring <syr...@email.com> wrote:
>
>Did you ever have a look at those magazines targeted at women? One of
>the immortal motives seem to be courses in amateur psychology "How do I
>identify my Prince Charming?". Next, there is "How can I teach him
>socially acceptable behavior?". Hey, it just does not work that way
>gals.

Depends on your definition of "socially acceptable behavior."
You're unlikely to cure an abuser or a gambler or a football
addict, but if what you've got is a nice guy who was brought up
in a barn and actually *wants* to learn how to behave in public,
then he can learn.

But yes, by and large people don't change, or they do change but
not in the direction you want them to, and the best strategy is,
I think, to find out what the person is like and decide you can
live with that. And if you can't live with that, going awayig2

Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 11:30:24 AM11/2/02
to
In article <B9E948249...@0.0.0.0>, Captain Button <but...@io.com> wrote:
>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?

Well let's see. Practically anything by Anne McCaffrey.

The Highroad Trilogy by Alys Rasmussen (now aka Kate Elliott) is
a pretty good example. The Jaran stories too I guess, but since
I gave up on them after the first volume I shouldn't speak about
them.

If non-written SF counts, all the parts of Star Trek TOS with
Spock in them, the creation of D. C. Fontana.

Consider the lines from _Children of the Atom,_ paraphrased from
memory: "Nobody has ever worked out Jung's animus stuff as well
as the anima. I mean--" "You mean books like Haggard's _She_
exist, but no woman has written a book about a man who was the
animus."

But of course that was not true even in 1950 or so when the book
was written, nor in 1975 or so when it's supposed to take place.
There had been a lot of books written by women with animus
figures in them, but they (mostly) weren't SF, they were
mysteries. Consider Sayers's Lord Peter Wimsey. Consider Ngaio
Marsh's Roderick Alleyn.

C. L. Moore wrote a good amount of fantasy with animus elements,
but I don't think any SF. Northwest Smith is not my idea of an
animus figure, though he may be somebody's. Wait, I am wrong:
_Doomsday Morning._

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 11:38:59 AM11/2/02
to
In article <aq0srh$5joki$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de>,

Mark Blunden <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Captain Button wrote:
>> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>
>> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
>Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold, based as it is on that tired "Planet
>of Amazon Men" cliche.
>
>Alright, I'm lying.

Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.
The fact that most likely they wouldn't want him (cf. Smith's
Lyranians) or that he wouldn't be able to stand the pace if he
did, does not occur to him.

But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
[by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
stay with her for life.

Rick Kleffel

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Nov 2, 2002, 11:52:35 AM11/2/02
to
Captain Button wrote:
>
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>

A growing number of romancesploitation novels feature science
fictional or fantasy themes. The alien-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
rescues the star girl and the warrior-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
rescues the barbarian queen are there waiting to be found by those
discerning readers and buyers.

It's a growth market.

If you're a writer and looking to sell something quick, this is
probably a good portal.

Thanks --Rickk

Jack Love

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Nov 2, 2002, 11:56:22 AM11/2/02
to

Check out J.D. Robb which is actualy SF...and if it is typical of
female fantasies, no wonder they are disappointed in men.

>Joe

David Cowie

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Nov 2, 2002, 12:14:38 PM11/2/02
to
On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 16:34:19 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

>
> But yes, by and large people don't change, or they do change but
> not in the direction you want them to, and the best strategy is,
> I think, to find out what the person is like and decide you can
> live with that. And if you can't live with that, going awayig2

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
awayig2 ?

--
David Cowie david_cowie at lineone dot net

So high, so low, so many things to know.

Geoduck

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Nov 2, 2002, 12:37:12 PM11/2/02
to
On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:27:20 GMT, pci...@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek)
wrote:

>In article <slrnas7nt...@gate.notcharles.ca>,

>Or "Alien lover rescues woman from dreadfully boring mundane life".
>I went to a local chain used book store and found that the majority of
>their shelf space was romances, such that they had begun shelving
>separate genres *within* romance. I don't recall if they separated
>SF romance from Fantasy romance.

Anne McCaffrey appears to have come close, at least judging by the two
"Freedom's Landing" novels I saw in a used book store the other day.
--
Geoduck
http://www.olywa.net/cook


Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 12:42:05 PM11/2/02
to
In article <pan.2002.11.02....@lineone.net>,

David Cowie <david_co...@lineone.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 16:34:19 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>>
>> But yes, by and large people don't change, or they do change but
>> not in the direction you want them to, and the best strategy is,
>> I think, to find out what the person is like and decide you can
>> live with that. And if you can't live with that, going awayig2
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> awayig2 ?

Sorry, typo. Should have been merely "away".

Mark Atwood

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Nov 2, 2002, 12:53:03 PM11/2/02
to
but...@io.com (Captain Button) writes:
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?

_Primary Inversion_ and sequels.

--
Mark Atwood | Well done is better than well said.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra

Keith Morrison

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Nov 2, 2002, 1:49:53 PM11/2/02
to
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
> present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
> men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.

No, no, no. You forgot an important part; where they do all
sorts of interesting things with each other and he gets to watch
as well as getting in on the action himself.

--
Keith

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 2:22:51 PM11/2/02
to
In article <3DC41E51...@polarnet.ca>,

Well, no, I didn't forget, I didn't know about that part.

Shucks! What's the fun in *watching*?

But then I have been female all my life so what do I know. Is it
the same kind of mindset that causes males to watch other males
playing football?

John F. Carr

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Nov 2, 2002, 2:57:13 PM11/2/02
to
In article <3DC402D2...@trashotron.com>,

Rick Kleffel <gi...@trashotron.com> wrote:
>Captain Button wrote:
>>
>> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>
>
>A growing number of romancesploitation novels feature science
>fictional or fantasy themes. The alien-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
>rescues the star girl and the warrior-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
>rescues the barbarian queen are there waiting to be found by those
>discerning readers and buyers.

Time travel seems especially popular in the last few years.

Every month or two I read a book distributor catalog that is sorted by
genre. "Romance" is alphabetically adjacent to "Science Fiction" so I
can't help but see some romance titles and synopses while looking for
SF. I have seen many descriptions like this:

"Alice despaired of ever finding a man to satisfy her, until a
mysterious time warp transported her to 19th century India, where she
met real men with muscles and no shirts who would do anything to have
her, and she would do anything to have them, and they did, and she
did, and they all lived happily ever after."

(One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)


--
John Carr (j...@mit.edu)

David Bilek

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:04:05 PM11/2/02
to
but...@io.com (Captain Button) wrote:

>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>

John Norman, _X_ of Gor.

-David

David Bilek

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:06:19 PM11/2/02
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David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com> wrote:

Following up to myself, now I wonder if this was a good idea. Lets
see if anyone yells at me due to a lack of humor receptors.

-David

Mark Blunden

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:14:37 PM11/2/02
to
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <aq0srh$5joki$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de>,
> Mark Blunden <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Captain Button wrote:
>>> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>>> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>>
>>> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>>
>> Ethan of Athos by Lois McMaster Bujold, based as it is on that tired
>> "Planet of Amazon Men" cliche.
>>
>> Alright, I'm lying.
>
> Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
> present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
> men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.
> The fact that most likely they wouldn't want him (cf. Smith's
> Lyranians) or that he wouldn't be able to stand the pace if he
> did, does not occur to him.

Oh, absolutely. Which is why a novel using the reverse situation (not as a
form of wish-fulfillment) has a certain sense of irony.

> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
> stay with her for life.

That's the problem - your fantasies aren't crude or basal. Makes us men look
like inferior louts.

Probably quite accurately. :)

--
Mark.

* Don't jinx it

Mark Blunden

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:14:54 PM11/2/02
to
John F. Carr wrote:

> (One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
> Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)

Stories about lesbian horses? About lesbians and horses? Or written by
lesbians about horses? Mind-boggling in any case.

Mike Schilling

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:15:24 PM11/2/02
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Do that many women have crude fantasies about baseball?


Michael Kube-McDowell

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:34:01 PM11/2/02
to
On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 19:22:51 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <3DC41E51...@polarnet.ca>,
>Keith Morrison <kei...@polarnet.ca> wrote:
>>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>
>>> Sure you are. Your stereotypical man, no offense intended to
>>> present company, fantasizes about planets full of women with no
>>> men, all eager for some man to arrive and start fertilizing them.
>>
>>No, no, no. You forgot an important part; where they do all
>>sorts of interesting things with each other and he gets to watch
>>as well as getting in on the action himself.
>
>Well, no, I didn't forget, I didn't know about that part.
>
>Shucks! What's the fun in *watching*?
>
>But then I have been female all my life so what do I know. Is it
>the same kind of mindset that causes males to watch other males
>playing football?

Nope.

At least, not generally.

--
Michael Kube-McDowell - author of VECTORS, now in stores

Michael Kube-McDowell

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:37:46 PM11/2/02
to
On 02 Nov 2002 19:57:13 GMT, j...@mit.edu (John F. Carr) wrote:

>In article <3DC402D2...@trashotron.com>,
>Rick Kleffel <gi...@trashotron.com> wrote:
>>Captain Button wrote:
>>>
>>> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>>> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>>
>>
>>A growing number of romancesploitation novels feature science
>>fictional or fantasy themes. The alien-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
>>rescues the star girl and the warrior-who-looks-like Fabio hulk who
>>rescues the barbarian queen are there waiting to be found by those
>>discerning readers and buyers.
>
>Time travel seems especially popular in the last few years.
>
>Every month or two I read a book distributor catalog that is sorted by
>genre. "Romance" is alphabetically adjacent to "Science Fiction" so I
>can't help but see some romance titles and synopses while looking for
>SF. I have seen many descriptions like this:
>
>"Alice despaired of ever finding a man to satisfy her, until a
>mysterious time warp transported her to 19th century India, where she
>met real men with muscles and no shirts who would do anything to have
>her, and she would do anything to have them, and they did, and she
>did, and they all lived happily ever after."

#107 on the USA TODAY Top 150:

"The Fiery Cross, by Diane Gabaldon

"Romance: 5th in series about 18th-century Scot and his 20th-century
wife."

Michael Kube-McDowell

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:40:12 PM11/2/02
to
On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:06:19 GMT, David Bilek <dbi...@attbi.com>
wrote:

Donald Wollheim reportedly said on more than one occasion that the
typical buyer of the GOR books was female. So I thought you were
serious. <wry g>

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:35:55 PM11/2/02
to
In article <i2c8susndd8hbp1b1...@4ax.com>,

Well, I was about to recommend Randall Garrett, _Free Amazons of
Gor._ (It's a musical.)

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:34:06 PM11/2/02
to
In article <aq1bn0$5nous$1...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de>,
Mark Blunden <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

>> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
>> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
>> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
>> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
>> stay with her for life.
>
>That's the problem - your fantasies aren't crude or basal. Makes us men look
>like inferior louts.

>Probably quite accurately. :)

Oh no. Unless you define "superior" as "like females," which
some females are so ill-advised as to do.

Both sexes are playing off the basic reproductive strategy, which
for the male is to fertilize as many females as quickly as
possible (he's only expending a few minutes and a few grams of
protein per female), and for the female to find someone who will
bond with her strongly enough to stick around, even when she's
pregnant, and help her raise the kid[s] (because she's expending
nine months of pregnancy, lots of food supplies, then up to four
years of lactation and nurture, lots more food supplies and
energy and assorted restrictions on her movements). Then you add
another million years of evolution, some increase in
intelligence, umpteen layers of past and present cultural input,
making it even more complicated. But the basic reproductive
strategy is where it starts from.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:35:07 PM11/2/02
to
In article <wnWw9.2802$834.21...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>,

Mike Schilling <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Do that many women have crude fantasies about baseball?

The only ones I ever had were about taking all the softballs (no
baseballs around) and bats on the school premises and burning
them all in a huge bonfire.

Brenda W. Clough

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:49:48 PM11/2/02
to
Geoduck wrote:


Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
female fantasy:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812566653/qid=1036270080/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6310362-6775351?v=glance


Brenda

--
---------
Brenda W. Clough
Read my novella "May Be Some Time"
Complete at http://www.analogsf.com/0202/maybesometime.html

My web page is at http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/

Brenda W. Clough

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:52:25 PM11/2/02
to
Captain Button wrote:

>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
>

>Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
>
>
>Possible reasons for the latter:
>
>A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
>
>B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF about
>them.
>
>C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about them,
>but it doesn't get published.
>


Or how about (D) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so
relatively subtle (compared to male basal fantasies) that they pass more
or less unobserved.

It cannot be a coincidence, all those good-looking, sensitive,
competent, caring male heroes in female authors' books.


Brenda <profound weakness for male heroes, herself>

Joe Mason

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:54:26 PM11/2/02
to
In article <uIWw9.66626$wG.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>, Michael Kube-McDowell wrote:
> "The Fiery Cross, by Diane Gabaldon
>
> "Romance: 5th in series about 18th-century Scot and his 20th-century
> wife."

Nice to see they're keeping the flame alive in their marriage.

(Unless, of course, they're romancing other people...)

Joe

Karl M. Syring

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Nov 2, 2002, 3:44:14 PM11/2/02
to
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> schrieb

> Do that many women have crude fantasies about baseball?

What is "baseball"?

Karl M. Syring

David Bilek

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Nov 2, 2002, 4:08:54 PM11/2/02
to
Michael Kube-McDowell <kubemc...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:

What? I had no idea. So more than half of the Gor audience are
women? Interesting.

Ok, I retract my retraction. Those responsible have been sacked.

-David

Paul F. Dietz

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Nov 2, 2002, 4:27:21 PM11/2/02
to
Michael Kube-McDowell wrote:

>
> #107 on the USA TODAY Top 150:
>
> "The Fiery Cross, by Diane Gabaldon
>
> "Romance: 5th in series about 18th-century Scot and his 20th-century
> wife."

Time travel romances became quite popular some years ago.

Paul


David Cowie

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Nov 2, 2002, 4:30:26 PM11/2/02
to

A game where the players hit a ball with a stick and run around a square
track. Popular in USA.

Doom & Gloom Dave

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Nov 2, 2002, 4:43:34 PM11/2/02
to

"Brenda W. Clough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3DC43A6C...@erols.com...

> Geoduck wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 15:27:20 GMT, pci...@TheWorld.com (Paul Ciszek)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>In article <slrnas7nt...@gate.notcharles.ca>,
> >>Joe Mason <j...@notcharles.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <B9E948249...@0.0.0.0>, Captain Button wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> >>>>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
> >>>>
> >>>>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
> >>>>
> >>>I'm sure there must be bodice-rippers set in space. They have them set
> >>>everywhere else.
> >>>
> >>Or "Alien lover rescues woman from dreadfully boring mundane life".
> >>I went to a local chain used book store and found that the majority of
> >>their shelf space was romances, such that they had begun shelving
> >>separate genres *within* romance. I don't recall if they separated
> >>SF romance from Fantasy romance.
> >>
> >
> >Anne McCaffrey appears to have come close, at least judging by the two
> >"Freedom's Landing" novels I saw in a used book store the other day.
> >
>
>
> Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
> female fantasy:
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812566653/qid=1036270080/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6310362-6775351?v=glance
>
>
> Brenda
>
Yikes! It's Fabio, and he's back, and in space.


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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A.C.

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Nov 2, 2002, 4:59:10 PM11/2/02
to
"Brenda W. Clough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3DC43B09...@erols.com...

> Or how about (D) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so
> relatively subtle (compared to male basal fantasies) that they pass more
> or less unobserved.
>
> It cannot be a coincidence, all those good-looking, sensitive,
> competent, caring male heroes in female authors' books.

I thought it was the brusque, willfull, masterful man who is reduced to
jelly by his love for the woman, then spends his time making calf-eyes at
her and mincing about.

--
nomadi...@hotmail.com | http://nomadic.simspace.net
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand
Russell


Anna Feruglio Dal Dan

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Nov 2, 2002, 5:20:58 PM11/2/02
to
Michael Kube-McDowell <kubemc...@excite.com.invalid> wrote:

You really really really sure?

Oh, sorry, *football*.
Sure.

Soccer, now...

--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan - ada...@despammed.com - this is a valid address
homepage: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
English blog: http://annafdd.blogspot.com/
Blog in italiano: http://fulminiesaette.blogspot.com

Anna Feruglio Dal Dan

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Nov 2, 2002, 5:20:57 PM11/2/02
to
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:

> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
> stay with her for life.

...weeeell. Maybe a bit of both, depending on the mood?

Irina Rempt

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Nov 2, 2002, 4:31:32 PM11/2/02
to
On Saturday 02 November 2002 21:49 Brenda W. Clough wrote:

> Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
> female fantasy:

Well, it's certainly not *my* fantasy. I like my men somewhat more
subtle.

Irina

--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin. http://www.valdyas.org/irina
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.

John R. Campbell

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Nov 2, 2002, 6:11:23 PM11/2/02
to
On 2 Nov 2002 21:45:34 GMT, Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Brenda W. Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote in
><3DC43B09...@erols.com>:
>>Captain Button wrote:
>>>I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
>>>fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>>>
>>>So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>>>
>>>
>>>Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
>>>
>>>
>>>Possible reasons for the latter:
>>>
>>>A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
>>>
>>>B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF
>>>about them.
>>>
>>>C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about
>>>them, but it doesn't get published.
>>
>>
>>Or how about (D) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so
>>relatively subtle (compared to male basal fantasies) that they pass more
>>or less unobserved.
>
> (D)(a) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so homosexual (twice
> as many hot guys to drool over!) that their being female basal fantasies
> passes more or less unobserved. For example, Fushigi Yugi fandom - the
> anime/manga series stars 1 girl with a whole bunch of cute guys, and lots
> of the fanfic pairs the cute guys off with each other.

It's been commented that some studies suggest that women *DO*
fantasize about having two men...

1) One cooking, and
2) One cleaning.

Perhaps additional ones are less commonly listed:

3) Gardening (mowing, etc)
4) Car Repair
5) Furniture Re-Arrangement
6) Carpentry/Plumbing/Electrical work- General House Repair


I haven't figured out what *my* wife keeps me around for :-)
though I know what's *unlikely* to be on the list.


--
John R. Campbell Speaker to Machines so...@jtan.com
- As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!
"It is impossible for ANY man to learn about impotence the hard way." - me
"ZIF is not a desirable trait when selecting a spouse." - me

Rick Kleffel

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Nov 2, 2002, 6:11:54 PM11/2/02
to
Captain Button wrote:
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?

Oh -- I just remembered -- 'Bikini Planet' by David Garnett.

http://trashotron.com/agony/reviews/garnett-bikini_planet.htm

Looks like a cheesy novel for guys, turns out to be a cheesy novel
for guys and gals. The titular planet being one whhich specializes in
uh, spoiler space,


Marriage.

Of course, for some guys this may qualify the novel for the horror genre.

Rickk
100% serious

John R. Campbell

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Nov 2, 2002, 6:17:56 PM11/2/02
to
On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 23:20:57 +0100, Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
<ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
>> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
>> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
>> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
>> stay with her for life.
>
> ...weeeell. Maybe a bit of both, depending on the mood?

Actually, the queen bee doesn't have to worry about any of
this stuff now, does she? If she wants conversation she'll
hold one with someone who's capable of understanding her,
right?

Let's be serious here- All things being equal (despite the
fact that they're not) males have little intrinsic value
except as sperm donors.

It's only when you have a baseline system using monogamy
that the value of a male goes up- just not very much.

The phrase "love her" in the item by Dorothy forgot that
women (AFAICT, I've heard a lot) don't think men are truly
*capable* of the kind of love (we're not talking sexual
here) that a woman wants.

Though enough women seem quite happy with adulation and
worship as a substitute...

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes

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Nov 2, 2002, 6:47:06 PM11/2/02
to
Sat, 02 Nov 2002 09:15:16 -0500, Captain Button <but...@io.com> spake:

> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
> Or, if there isn't any (or very little), why?
> Possible reasons for the latter:
> A) Females don't have crude basal fantasies.
> B) Females do have crude basal fantasies, but people don't write SF about
> them.
> C) Females do have crude basal fantasies and people do write SF about them,
> but it doesn't get published.

D) C, but it does get published, though not very often.

Holly Lisle's books are borderline "crude fantasies of females" at
times. They're still good adventures even for guys, have interesting
worlds and complex plots and mysteries, but I'm sure they'd hit even
more buttons for women.

Wilhelmina Baird's novels are on that border, too. Good cyberpunk
adventures, but there's weird romance fantasy stuff going on that guys
just kind of blank out on.

--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"No one is safe. We will print no letters to the editor. We will give no
space to opposing points of view. They are wrong. The Underground Grammarian
is at war and will give the enemy nothing but battle." -TUG, v1n1

Mark Reichert

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Nov 2, 2002, 6:48:42 PM11/2/02
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in message news:<H4yJD...@kithrup.com>...
> Depends on your definition of "socially acceptable behavior."
> You're unlikely to cure an abuser or a gambler or a football
> addict, but if what you've got is a nice guy who was brought up
> in a barn and actually *wants* to learn how to behave in public,
> then he can learn.

Where does one find a woman willing to take on such a task?<g>

I'm reminded of Protector Benjamin's words in Weber's Honor of the
Queen about while Japan wanted to be left alone, Grayson was pleading
for somebody, anybody to drag them into the present.

I'm also reminded of a bit in "Same Time, Next Year", when George says
that his wife had a big impact on his self esteem and success. How?
She married him.

Mark Reichert

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Nov 2, 2002, 6:53:54 PM11/2/02
to
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in message news:<H4yJK...@kithrup.com>...

> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
> drones.

I notice you didn't say she couldn't keep up with the pace.<g>

> She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
> stay with her for life.

How about two out of four?<g> Love and commitment are easy, but one
has to be able to protect and support oneself before being able do so
for others.

Irina Rempt

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Nov 2, 2002, 6:01:16 PM11/2/02
to
On Sunday 03 November 2002 00:53 Mark Reichert wrote:
r

The reason I don't care for wish-fulfillment fantasies is probably that
I've got three out of four already. I don't need much protection.

Michael Kube-McDowell

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Nov 2, 2002, 7:24:54 PM11/2/02
to
On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 15:27:21 -0600, "Paul F. Dietz" <di...@dls.net>
wrote:

Yes, I know. There was a minor set-to in SFWA at the time, due to the
culture clash. I was just offering a current example.

Anna Feruglio Dal Dan

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Nov 2, 2002, 7:50:04 PM11/2/02
to
John R. Campbell <so...@penrij.uucp.jtan.com> wrote:

> The phrase "love her" in the item by Dorothy forgot that
> women (AFAICT, I've heard a lot) don't think men are truly
> *capable* of the kind of love (we're not talking sexual
> here) that a woman wants.

That's true only for a very specialized kind of love and kind of women.

If Madame de Rosemond's assumptions were right ("The fact, my dear, is
that women can only take pleasure in the happiness they bestow on
others"), and historically they were for a lot of women for a lot of
time, then her conclusion ("and therefore to exptect to be made happy by
a man is a desperate folly" - quotations here are my translation back
from lines remembered without the text) was also true.

I think the percentage of women who can concieve of a different kind of
happiness is much larger now, and consequently so is the number of the
men that can give them exactly what they want - i.e. love that does not
require complete self-obliteration.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:38:48 PM11/2/02
to
In article <2314171.5...@calcifer.valdyas.org>,

Irina Rempt <ir...@valdyas.org> wrote:
>On Saturday 02 November 2002 21:49 Brenda W. Clough wrote:
>
>> Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
>> female fantasy:
>
>Well, it's certainly not *my* fantasy. I like my men somewhat more
>subtle.

Not mine either, thankyouverymuch.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:39:28 PM11/2/02
to
In article <99e65015.0211...@posting.google.com>,

Mark Reichert <Mark_R...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in message news:<H4yJD...@kithrup.com>...
>> Depends on your definition of "socially acceptable behavior."
>> You're unlikely to cure an abuser or a gambler or a football
>> addict, but if what you've got is a nice guy who was brought up
>> in a barn and actually *wants* to learn how to behave in public,
>> then he can learn.
>
>Where does one find a woman willing to take on such a task?<g>

I dunno. Where do you find the nice guy who wants to learn?

Me neither, but I hope they find each other.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:41:20 PM11/2/02
to
In article <1fl1ndx.ln3opy1rrt67sN%ada...@spamcop.net>,

Anna Feruglio Dal Dan <ada...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>> But your steretypical woman, still no offense intended, doesn't
>> fantasize about being the queen bee with gigantic harem of
>> drones. She wants one male who will love her, protect her,
>> [by implication] support her and her kids when she has them, and
>> stay with her for life.
>
>...weeeell. Maybe a bit of both, depending on the mood?

I am willing to postulate, for the sake of argument, that
somewhere there is a female who has moods where she wants a harem
of drones. The fact that I have never experienced such a mood in
my sixty years of being female proves nothing.

Dorothy J Heydt

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:42:33 PM11/2/02
to
In article <slrnas8n9...@soup2nets.net.dhis.org>,

John R. Campbell <so...@penrij.uucp.jtan.com> wrote:
>
> The phrase "love her" in the item by Dorothy forgot that
> women (AFAICT, I've heard a lot) don't think men are truly
> *capable* of the kind of love (we're not talking sexual
> here) that a woman wants.

The hell you say. I found one, and one is all I need. I have a
strong suspicion there are others.

Captain Button

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:47:41 PM11/2/02
to
In article <aq1eq9$5m6q2$1...@ID-7529.news.dfncis.de>,

ObSF: _ Flag in Exile _, Chapter 8, by David Weber.


--
American Express says I'm deceased. Boo! Consider yourself haunted.
Captain Button - but...@io.com

Captain Button

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:47:42 PM11/2/02
to
In article <aq1bn0$5nous$2...@ID-36588.news.dfncis.de>,
"Mark Blunden" <mark.blund...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>John F. Carr wrote:
>
>> (One title that caught my eye recently is "The Big Book of Lesbian
>> Horse Stories". No, it isn't a Stirling-McCaffrey collaboration.)
>
>Stories about lesbian horses? About lesbians and horses? Or written by
>lesbians about horses? Mind-boggling in any case.

You forgot the possibility that they are stories by horses about
lesbians...


Actually, though, most lesbian horses are that way not from true
inclination, but for political reasons.

They only do it to show solidarity against Stallionist Oppression.

Captain Button

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:47:44 PM11/2/02
to
In article, so...@penrij.uucp.jtan.com (John R. Campbell) wrote:
>On 2 Nov 2002 21:45:34 GMT, Omixochitl <Omixoch...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Brenda W. Clough <clo...@erols.com> wrote in
>><3DC43B09...@erols.com>:

[ snip ]

>>>Or how about (D) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so
>>>relatively subtle (compared to male basal fantasies) that they pass more
>>>or less unobserved.
>>
>> (D)(a) Females do have basal fantasies, but they're so homosexual (twice
>> as many hot guys to drool over!) that their being female basal fantasies
>> passes more or less unobserved. For example, Fushigi Yugi fandom - the
>> anime/manga series stars 1 girl with a whole bunch of cute guys, and lots
>> of the fanfic pairs the cute guys off with each other.
>
> It's been commented that some studies suggest that women *DO*
> fantasize about having two men...
>
> 1) One cooking, and
> 2) One cleaning.
>
> Perhaps additional ones are less commonly listed:
>
> 3) Gardening (mowing, etc)
> 4) Car Repair
> 5) Furniture Re-Arrangement
> 6) Carpentry/Plumbing/Electrical work- General House Repair
>
>
> I haven't figured out what *my* wife keeps me around for :-)
> though I know what's *unlikely* to be on the list.

Terry Pratchett uses something like this in one of the footnotes in _
Faust^H^H^H^H^H Eric _.

Captain Button

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:47:43 PM11/2/02
to
In article <3dc44358$1...@corp.newsgroups.com>,

"Doom & Gloom Dave" <dwh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Brenda W. Clough" <clo...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:3DC43A6C...@erols.com...

[ snip ]

>> Or Catherine Asaro. Have a look at this cover, for the quintessential
>> female fantasy:
>>
>>
>>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812566653/qid=1036270080/sr=1
>>-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6310362-6775351?v=glance

> Yikes! It's Fabio, and he's back, and in space.


Actually, it just sound like the inverse of that cover of one of Bujold's
Miles Vorkosigan novels. The one I've never seen, with Miles in black
leather and a scantily clad woman at his feet.


[ I have got a copy of _ Brothers in Arms _ that almost fits that
description, but the woman is wearing just as much black leather as he is.
]

Sean O'Hara

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:47:59 PM11/2/02
to
Captain Button wrote:
>
> I see that the usual discussion of what SF caters to the crude basal
> fantasies of males has come around again on the guitar.
>
> So what SF caters to the crude basal fantasies of females?
>
Depends ... do psychic horsies count as "basal"?


--
Sean O'Hara
"Thanks to these sterling efforts, they’re bringing significantly
closer the day when the entire Middle East, much of Africa and even
Europe will be under the Saddamite nuclear umbrella and thus safe
from Bush’s aggression." -Mark Steyn

Sean O'Hara

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Nov 2, 2002, 8:50:22 PM11/2/02
to
"Karl M. Syring" wrote:
>
> "Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> schrieb
> > Do that many women have crude fantasies about baseball?
>
> What is "baseball"?
>
A slightly more comprehensible version of Cricket.

Lots42

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Nov 2, 2002, 9:19:14 PM11/2/02
to
There was this bizarre Piers Anthony book (aren't they all?) that involved an
alien from another dimension being found by a typical Earth teen. If it wasn't
for the jailbait plotline (the girl was fifteen, he was late twenties) it might
have actually been much better.

I guess this is crude teenager fantasies. (Hunky man takes me away from stupid
parents and stupid school).

It was actually quite interesting. There's this creepy scene where the girl
realizes the traffic lights aren't red anymore...they're blue.

Lots42

unread,
Nov 2, 2002, 9:23:47 PM11/2/02
to
>From: djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)

-amazon space women fantasies-


>Shucks! What's the fun in *watching*?

To store it in memory to play back later when the amazonian space babes are
sleeping.

>But then I have been female all my life so what do I know. Is it
>the same kind of mindset that causes males to watch other males
>playing football?

I don't know. I would rather get in there and play.

Sometimes, though, the teams actually have talent and it's exciting to see
someone dance through a wall of attackers and score a touchdown.


--
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to
stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public. (Theodore Roosevelt)


Taki Kogoma

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Nov 2, 2002, 9:22:15 PM11/2/02
to
On Sat, 02 Nov 2002 20:47:43 -0500, did but...@io.com (Captain Button),
to rec.arts.sf.written decree...

>Actually, it just sound like the inverse of that cover of one of Bujold's
>Miles Vorkosigan novels. The one I've never seen, with Miles in black
>leather and a scantily clad woman at his feet.

I think it's one of the early covers of _The Warrior's Apprentice_
that matches this description...

--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
quirk @ swcp.com | superior to what I have now."
Veteran of the '91 sf-lovers re-org. | -- Gym Quirk

Lots42

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Nov 2, 2002, 9:36:43 PM11/2/02