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“The 8 Tribes of SciFi”
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Lynn McGuire
Nov 27, 2022, 10:40:02 PM11/27/22
to
“The 8 Tribes of SciFi”
https://damiengwalter.com/2020/08/29/the-8-tribes-of-scifi/
“from any objective perspective, YA is the mainstream of sci-fi today”
1. Commercial Storytellers
2. The Weirds
3. Hard Sciencers
4. Military Conservatives
5. Progressive Fantasists
6. YA Adventurers
7. The LitFic Tourists
8. Sexy Beasts
Lynn
https://damiengwalter.com/2020/08/29/the-8-tribes-of-scifi/
“from any objective perspective, YA is the mainstream of sci-fi today”
1. Commercial Storytellers
2. The Weirds
3. Hard Sciencers
4. Military Conservatives
5. Progressive Fantasists
6. YA Adventurers
7. The LitFic Tourists
8. Sexy Beasts
Lynn
Moriarty
Nov 27, 2022, 11:10:52 PM11/27/22
to
-Moriarty
peterw...@hotmail.com
Nov 28, 2022, 12:17:04 AM11/28/22
to
with the partially bionic arm holding an SKS carbine?
_Harry Potter_ would seem to fit in both the commercial storyteller and
YA adventurer categories. Note how long it took for J. K. Rowling to find
a publisher. Tom Clancy had similar difficulties, as did Edward E. Smith.
Referring to what he calls "The Weirds", Damien Walter writes:
"Most writers at some point play around with the effects that can be
induced by engineering stories with internal inconsistencies, mashing
together disparate metaphors, or simply being weird for weirds sake."
It's not easy to construct a consistent imaginary world, and I
have great respect for the knowledge, intelligence, and skill
of people who become published SF writers. There was a
well-known author who called worldbuilding a game between the
writer and reader. When I come upon an internal inconsistency I
see it as a glitch. I have sometimes discussed these with the
author at a convention and they do not seem to be adverse to
talking about such things. I would be interested to hear about
SF stories with deliberate inconsistencies.
This is the first time I've read about "Donald Trump supporting SF readers".
I would be pleasantly surprised if any Trump fans had the curiosity, open
mindedness, and knowledge of the real world to enjoy any subgenre
of science fiction.
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
WolfFan
Nov 28, 2022, 12:34:17 AM11/28/22
to
On Nov 28, 2022, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote
(in article<83f7e464-43f6-48e5...@googlegroups.com>):
Tom Kratman.
John Ringo.
Terry Austin.
>
>
> Peter Wezeman
> anti-social Darwinist
(in article<83f7e464-43f6-48e5...@googlegroups.com>):
John Ringo.
Terry Austin.
>
>
> Peter Wezeman
> anti-social Darwinist
peterw...@hotmail.com
Nov 28, 2022, 1:10:09 AM11/28/22
to
inconsistencies? I have read some of John Ringo's books and
I would be interested in what the inconsistencies are and
what books they are in. It occurs to me that you might mean
instead that these are authors whose books appeal to Trump
supporters. If this is the case I am interested in any evidence.
I note that the military SF category long predates Donald Trump's
political career or his media career. In either case thank you
for your reply.
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Christian Weisgerber
Nov 28, 2022, 8:30:08 AM11/28/22
to
On 2022-11-28, peterw...@hotmail.com <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> https://damiengwalter.com/2020/08/29/the-8-tribes-of-scifi/
iconic pictures from the movie.
> Is the woman with the partially bionic arm holding an SKS carbine?
Yes.
https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Mad_Max:_Fury_Road#Type_56_SKS
If you didn't know it yet, the Internet Movie Firearms Database is
the place to look up such things.
> I would be pleasantly surprised if any Trump fans had the curiosity, open
> mindedness, and knowledge of the real world to enjoy any subgenre
> of science fiction.
Arguably, knowledge of the real world is to the detriment of enjoying
science fiction. Or any fiction for that matter. Nowadays, my
most common thought when watching movies/TV is "it doesn't work
that way". (My second most common thought is "hooks!".)
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
>> https://damiengwalter.com/2020/08/29/the-8-tribes-of-scifi/
>>
> Is the illustration possibly a still from _Mad Max: Fury Road_?
I don't think it's a still. More likely a composite combining
> Is the illustration possibly a still from _Mad Max: Fury Road_?
iconic pictures from the movie.
> Is the woman with the partially bionic arm holding an SKS carbine?
https://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Mad_Max:_Fury_Road#Type_56_SKS
If you didn't know it yet, the Internet Movie Firearms Database is
the place to look up such things.
> I would be pleasantly surprised if any Trump fans had the curiosity, open
> mindedness, and knowledge of the real world to enjoy any subgenre
> of science fiction.
science fiction. Or any fiction for that matter. Nowadays, my
most common thought when watching movies/TV is "it doesn't work
that way". (My second most common thought is "hooks!".)
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
James Nicoll
Nov 28, 2022, 10:01:49 AM11/28/22
to
In article <slrnto9c6a...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
40 or so years ago I read a mystery by an author who clearly had
read one too many parlour scenes. His lead is a cheap detective
who specializes in grubby stuff like divorce, who is thrilled
to pieces when he realizes not only is he dealing with a murder
case but he knows who did it, it's someone he's not afraid of,
and for the only time in his career, he has the means and
opportunity for a classic palour scene.
Part way through his explanation, the little old lady who committed
the murder spots where's his chain of logic is headed and filets
him with a very sharp letter opener. He lives, but books later
he's still getting physical therapy.
ObSF: Joan Vinge's Media Man was inspired by watching a TV
movie in which someone, having seen a murder, tells the
killer to their face that they saw him and will at some
opportune moment talk to the police.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
read one too many parlour scenes. His lead is a cheap detective
who specializes in grubby stuff like divorce, who is thrilled
to pieces when he realizes not only is he dealing with a murder
case but he knows who did it, it's someone he's not afraid of,
and for the only time in his career, he has the means and
opportunity for a classic palour scene.
Part way through his explanation, the little old lady who committed
the murder spots where's his chain of logic is headed and filets
him with a very sharp letter opener. He lives, but books later
he's still getting physical therapy.
ObSF: Joan Vinge's Media Man was inspired by watching a TV
movie in which someone, having seen a murder, tells the
killer to their face that they saw him and will at some
opportune moment talk to the police.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
James Nicoll
Nov 28, 2022, 10:08:02 AM11/28/22
to
In article <83f7e464-43f6-48e5...@googlegroups.com>,
books written in his universes by other authors, his stuff
is unsellable to used bookstores.
>This is the first time I've read about "Donald Trump supporting
>SF readers".
>
>I would be pleasantly surprised if any Trump fans had the curiosity,
>open mindedness, and knowledge of the real world to enjoy any
>subgenre of science fiction.
Oh, you don't have to be open-minded or knowledgeable about the
real world to like SF, just judicious in one's selection of SF.
Pick the right publisher--maybe one whose message board is filled
by angry guys ranting about how the 2020 election was stolen--and
it should be easy to find crap catering to RWNJs.
peterw...@hotmail.com <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 9:40:02 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> “The 8 Tribes of SciFi”
>> https://damiengwalter.com/2020/08/29/the-8-tribes-of-scifi/
>>
>> “from any objective perspective, YA is the mainstream of
>sci-fi today”
>>
>> 1. Commercial Storytellers
>> 2. The Weirds
>> 3. Hard Sciencers
>> 4. Military Conservatives
>> 5. Progressive Fantasists
>> 6. YA Adventurers
>> 7. The LitFic Tourists
>> 8. Sexy Beasts
>>
>Is the illustration possibly a still from _Mad Max: Fury Road_?
>Is the woman
>with the partially bionic arm holding an SKS carbine?
>
>_Harry Potter_ would seem to fit in both the commercial storyteller and
>YA adventurer categories. Note how long it took for J. K. Rowling
>to find
>a publisher. Tom Clancy had similar difficulties, as did Edward E. Smith.
Clancy's gone full circle: thanks to the dire quality of the
>On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 9:40:02 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> “The 8 Tribes of SciFi”
>> https://damiengwalter.com/2020/08/29/the-8-tribes-of-scifi/
>>
>> “from any objective perspective, YA is the mainstream of
>sci-fi today”
>>
>> 1. Commercial Storytellers
>> 2. The Weirds
>> 3. Hard Sciencers
>> 4. Military Conservatives
>> 5. Progressive Fantasists
>> 6. YA Adventurers
>> 7. The LitFic Tourists
>> 8. Sexy Beasts
>>
>Is the illustration possibly a still from _Mad Max: Fury Road_?
>Is the woman
>with the partially bionic arm holding an SKS carbine?
>
>_Harry Potter_ would seem to fit in both the commercial storyteller and
>YA adventurer categories. Note how long it took for J. K. Rowling
>to find
>a publisher. Tom Clancy had similar difficulties, as did Edward E. Smith.
books written in his universes by other authors, his stuff
is unsellable to used bookstores.
>This is the first time I've read about "Donald Trump supporting
>SF readers".
>
>I would be pleasantly surprised if any Trump fans had the curiosity,
>open mindedness, and knowledge of the real world to enjoy any
>subgenre of science fiction.
real world to like SF, just judicious in one's selection of SF.
Pick the right publisher--maybe one whose message board is filled
by angry guys ranting about how the 2020 election was stolen--and
it should be easy to find crap catering to RWNJs.
Robert Woodward
Nov 28, 2022, 1:07:35 PM11/28/22
to
In article <tm2ise$13r$2...@reader2.panix.com>,
> >> https://damiengwalter.com/2020/08/29/the-8-tribes-of-scifi/
> >>
> >> “from any objective perspective, YA is the mainstream of
> >sci-fi today”
and Covid-19 vaccinations (which they still are) and President Obama
being born in Kenya. I will point out (having checked their publishing
schedule), that the publisher in question doesn't publish very many
books that would cater to them. I suspect that they are trading names of
authors they have found in Amazon's Kindle store.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
jdni...@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> In article <83f7e464-43f6-48e5...@googlegroups.com>,
> peterw...@hotmail.com <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 9:40:02 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> “The 8 Tribes of SciFi”
> In article <83f7e464-43f6-48e5...@googlegroups.com>,
> peterw...@hotmail.com <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 9:40:02 PM UTC-6, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >> https://damiengwalter.com/2020/08/29/the-8-tribes-of-scifi/
> >>
> >> “from any objective perspective, YA is the mainstream of
> >sci-fi today”
> >>
> >> 1. Commercial Storytellers
> >> 2. The Weirds
> >> 3. Hard Sciencers
> >> 4. Military Conservatives
> >> 5. Progressive Fantasists
> >> 6. YA Adventurers
> >> 7. The LitFic Tourists
> >> 8. Sexy Beasts
> >>
<snip>
> >> 1. Commercial Storytellers
> >> 2. The Weirds
> >> 3. Hard Sciencers
> >> 4. Military Conservatives
> >> 5. Progressive Fantasists
> >> 6. YA Adventurers
> >> 7. The LitFic Tourists
> >> 8. Sexy Beasts
> >>
>
> >This is the first time I've read about "Donald Trump supporting
> >SF readers".
> >
> >I would be pleasantly surprised if any Trump fans had the curiosity,
> >open mindedness, and knowledge of the real world to enjoy any
> >subgenre of science fiction.
>
> Oh, you don't have to be open-minded or knowledgeable about the
> real world to like SF, just judicious in one's selection of SF.
> Pick the right publisher--maybe one whose message board is filled
> by angry guys ranting about how the 2020 election was stolen--and
> it should be easy to find crap catering to RWNJs.
And before that, they were ranting about the "lies" of climate change
> >This is the first time I've read about "Donald Trump supporting
> >SF readers".
> >
> >I would be pleasantly surprised if any Trump fans had the curiosity,
> >open mindedness, and knowledge of the real world to enjoy any
> >subgenre of science fiction.
>
> Oh, you don't have to be open-minded or knowledgeable about the
> real world to like SF, just judicious in one's selection of SF.
> Pick the right publisher--maybe one whose message board is filled
> by angry guys ranting about how the 2020 election was stolen--and
> it should be easy to find crap catering to RWNJs.
and Covid-19 vaccinations (which they still are) and President Obama
being born in Kenya. I will point out (having checked their publishing
schedule), that the publisher in question doesn't publish very many
books that would cater to them. I suspect that they are trading names of
authors they have found in Amazon's Kindle store.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
Andrew McDowell
Nov 28, 2022, 1:38:52 PM11/28/22
to
peterw...@hotmail.com
Nov 28, 2022, 6:31:06 PM11/28/22
to
Interestingly, the Online Slang Dictionary and some other sources call
it an acronym, which implies it can be pronounced as a word. Others
call it an initialism, which seems more reasonable.
On this subject I agree with Jerry Pournelle that a one-dimensional scale
such as right-left is not a particularly useful way to describe political
beliefs.
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Joy Beeson
Nov 28, 2022, 10:55:04 PM11/28/22
to
On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 10:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andrew McDowell
<mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> Also, as an engineer, I live in a world in which all sorts of single failures are to be expected and put up with, and believing that Donald Trump would make a better President than Joe Biden is at most a singe point of failure.
Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
<mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
> Also, as an engineer, I live in a world in which all sorts of single failures are to be expected and put up with, and believing that Donald Trump would make a better President than Joe Biden is at most a singe point of failure.
He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
it's a trench.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
Lynn McGuire
Nov 28, 2022, 11:24:56 PM11/28/22
to
On 11/28/2022 9:54 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 10:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andrew McDowell
> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>
>> Also, as an engineer, I live in a world in which all sorts of single failures are to be expected and put up with, and believing that Donald Trump would make a better President than Joe Biden is at most a singe point of failure.
>
>
> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
> it's a trench.
OK, I laughed.
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 10:38:49 -0800 (PST), Andrew McDowell
> <mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>
>> Also, as an engineer, I live in a world in which all sorts of single failures are to be expected and put up with, and believing that Donald Trump would make a better President than Joe Biden is at most a singe point of failure.
>
>
> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
> it's a trench.
You know, half of our presidents were below average presidents.
Lynn
WolfFan
Nov 28, 2022, 11:39:18 PM11/28/22
to
On Nov 28, 2022, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote
(in article<d466ae6d-ff23-4cff...@googlegroups.com>):
violent, fascist, islamaphobe, antisemite, authoritarian, paranoid. He’s
very active on Quora. Have a look and decide for yourself.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Nov 28, 2022, 11:54:54 PM11/28/22
to
In article <tm41ij$26obb$2...@dont-email.me>,
That'd be below median presidents, wouldn't it?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Quadibloc
Nov 29, 2022, 3:33:15 AM11/29/22
to
On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:55:04 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
> it's a trench.
Really? Donald Trump was trying to *kill* Americans by opposing
> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
> it's a trench.
vital public health measures in the COVID-19 pandemic.
I'm not sure how one can consider Biden as being worse than that.
And the Republicans under him tried to do better in elections by
hindering black people in voting. Isn't that enough to automatically
dismiss the entire party as pure evil?
John Savard
Quadibloc
Nov 29, 2022, 3:37:23 AM11/29/22
to
On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 9:54:54 PM UTC-7, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <tm41ij$26obb$2...@dont-email.me>,
> >You know, half of our presidents were below average presidents.
is skewed! And so I can't find it to be a _serious_ error that
the statement was based on the original saying... "Think of how
stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are
stupider than that" by George Carliln.
John Savard
> In article <tm41ij$26obb$2...@dont-email.me>,
> >You know, half of our presidents were below average presidents.
> That'd be below median presidents, wouldn't it?
But that distinction is only significant if the distribution
is skewed! And so I can't find it to be a _serious_ error that
the statement was based on the original saying... "Think of how
stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are
stupider than that" by George Carliln.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Nov 29, 2022, 3:41:45 AM11/29/22
to
comes to mind...
It wouldn't be so bad that half of the children in school were below
average if only the bottom 10% were unfit to attend college. So
why aren't we conducting an aggressive program to achieve this,
by improving both the educational system and the human genome?
John Savard
Quadibloc
Nov 29, 2022, 3:47:02 AM11/29/22
to
On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 1:41:45 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> Of course, there might be an earlier precedent. Lake Woebegon
> comes to mind...
I have found an attribution of "Half the people in the world are below
> Of course, there might be an earlier precedent. Lake Woebegon
> comes to mind...
average" to Napoleon.
John Savard
Paul S Person
Nov 29, 2022, 12:41:11 PM11/29/22
to
On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 00:33:13 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:55:04 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
>> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
>> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
>> it's a trench.
>
>Really? Donald Trump was trying to *kill* Americans by opposing
>vital public health measures in the COVID-19 pandemic.
But he was ineffective. His inability to understand how things are
<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:55:04 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
>> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
>> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
>> it's a trench.
>
>Really? Donald Trump was trying to *kill* Americans by opposing
>vital public health measures in the COVID-19 pandemic.
done led to endless court reversals on the theme "you gotta comply
with established procedure, particularly when established by law".
>I'm not sure how one can consider Biden as being worse than that.
And, should the pandemic resurge (I hope it won't, but who can say for
sure?), he may even manage to do what Trump never even tried to do --
provide /national/ leadership, not just stir up the base.
>And the Republicans under him tried to do better in elections by
>hindering black people in voting. Isn't that enough to automatically
>dismiss the entire party as pure evil?
whining because they did all they could to suppress "them" and the
Dems /still/ won most of the major races.
Trump and his semi-fascist Trump-fanatic base/party apparatchiks
simply do not understand that, by actually achieving a 40-year goal
(reversing Roe v Wade) they unleashed a lot of resentment even in
(say) Arizona. Studies have apparently shown that, in some States, 20%
more females than males registered to vote in the mid-terms. Guess
which Party /they/ voted for -- the Party of Men Control Women's
Bodies, or the Party of No They Don't?
They are also hobbled by their view of how elections work:
1) Those graciously permitted by their Republican-controlled
legislature to vote do so.
2) All Republicans win.
3) Anything else is the result of massive voter fraud.
which, sadly for them, does not correspond with reality.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."
Chris Buckley
Nov 30, 2022, 9:19:11 PM11/30/22
to
On 2022-11-29, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:55:04 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
>> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
>> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
>> it's a trench.
>
> Really? Donald Trump was trying to *kill* Americans by opposing
> vital public health measures in the COVID-19 pandemic.
>
> I'm not sure how one can consider Biden as being worse than that.
OK, John, you've been trotting out your theories for quite some time,
> On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:55:04 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
>
>> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
>> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
>> it's a trench.
>
> Really? Donald Trump was trying to *kill* Americans by opposing
> vital public health measures in the COVID-19 pandemic.
>
> I'm not sure how one can consider Biden as being worse than that.
unsupported by any factual information. I view your claims as
nonsense, just joining a conspiracy theory. Make your case!
Trump got a number of things wrong about Covid. But so did everybody.
The WHO and CDC finally said that Covid was primarily spread by aerosol
airborne transmission in April 2021! (It was surface transmission plus
direct being coughed upon before that.)
Chris
pete...@gmail.com
Dec 1, 2022, 9:02:52 AM12/1/22
to
people to die. However, his immediate response was utterly irresponsible,
with 'keep Trump looking good' the main goal. Asking for *less* testing,
for example, to keep the published numbers down.
There were a lot of mis-steps by others too; the CDC turned into a huge
bottleneck on testing early on. Most of the rest of the was due to authorities
responding to the call to "DO SOMETHING!", as well as scientists being asked
for solutions long before even basic facts about the disease were known.
Its already getting hard to remember the sense of panic we felt in the spring
and summer of 2020, when refrigerated trucks were being rented by hospitals
as overflow morgues, and people were disinfecting their newly purchased
vegetables. We've become far more complacent since vaccines became
available.
I wound up with an infection this August, caught at a DEFCON party. It immediately
spread to my entire household, but everyone was fully vaxxed, and got over it
quickly.
pt
James Nicoll
Dec 1, 2022, 9:46:16 AM12/1/22
to
In article <e0a8b7d7-48e4-4d2f...@googlegroups.com>,
would die than Republicans, thus giving Trump a much needed
edge? Although it seems now that team red's vaccine hesitancy
and refusal to take any counter measures is facilitating their
elevation to spiritual beings faster than team blue.
pete...@gmail.com <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 9:19:11 PM UTC-5, Chris Buckley wrote:
>> On 2022-11-29, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> > On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:55:04 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> >
>> >> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
>> >> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
>> >> it's a trench.
>> >
>> > Really? Donald Trump was trying to *kill* Americans by opposing
>> > vital public health measures in the COVID-19 pandemic.
>> >
>> > I'm not sure how one can consider Biden as being worse than that.
>> OK, John, you've been trotting out your theories for quite some time,
>> unsupported by any factual information. I view your claims as
>> nonsense, just joining a conspiracy theory. Make your case!
>>
>> Trump got a number of things wrong about Covid. But so did everybody.
>> The WHO and CDC finally said that Covid was primarily spread by
>aerosol
>> airborne transmission in April 2021! (It was surface transmission plus
>> direct being coughed upon before that.)
>
>I don't think John can make a case that Trump (or anyone) *wanted*
>people to die.
I thought there was an early perception that more Democrats
>On Wednesday, November 30, 2022 at 9:19:11 PM UTC-5, Chris Buckley wrote:
>> On 2022-11-29, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> > On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:55:04 PM UTC-7, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> >
>> >> Trump is incompetent, immature, and an all-around embarassment.
>> >> He was still a better president than Biden -- this isn't a low bar,
>> >> it's a trench.
>> >
>> > Really? Donald Trump was trying to *kill* Americans by opposing
>> > vital public health measures in the COVID-19 pandemic.
>> >
>> > I'm not sure how one can consider Biden as being worse than that.
>> OK, John, you've been trotting out your theories for quite some time,
>> unsupported by any factual information. I view your claims as
>> nonsense, just joining a conspiracy theory. Make your case!
>>
>> Trump got a number of things wrong about Covid. But so did everybody.
>> The WHO and CDC finally said that Covid was primarily spread by
>aerosol
>> airborne transmission in April 2021! (It was surface transmission plus
>> direct being coughed upon before that.)
>
>I don't think John can make a case that Trump (or anyone) *wanted*
>people to die.
would die than Republicans, thus giving Trump a much needed
edge? Although it seems now that team red's vaccine hesitancy
and refusal to take any counter measures is facilitating their
elevation to spiritual beings faster than team blue.
Dorothy J Heydt
Dec 3, 2022, 1:07:50 AM12/3/22
to
In article <83f7e464-43f6-48e5...@googlegroups.com>,
peterw...@hotmail.com <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
peterw...@hotmail.com <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Can't speak to world building inconsistencies, but when Poul
Anderson was asked about continuity errors, he would give a very
expressive shrug and say, "The name's Anderson, not God."
Dorothy J Heydt
Dec 3, 2022, 3:37:49 PM12/3/22
to
In article <julhkp...@mid.individual.net>,
(Hal Heydt)
Mean, median, mode. Take your pick. 46 isn't a large enough
sample size to insure that all three will be at the same place in
a normal distribution.
Mean, median, mode. Take your pick. 46 isn't a large enough
sample size to insure that all three will be at the same place in
a normal distribution.
Andrew McDowell
Dec 3, 2022, 4:02:36 PM12/3/22
to
Thomas Koenig
Dec 3, 2022, 5:43:00 PM12/3/22
to
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
> (Hal Heydt)
> Can't speak to world building inconsistencies, but when Poul
> Anderson was asked about continuity errors, he would give a very
> expressive shrug and say, "The name's Anderson, not God."
Didn't Asimov quote something along the lines of "A foolish
consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind" or something like
that in one of his story introductions?
> (Hal Heydt)
> Can't speak to world building inconsistencies, but when Poul
> Anderson was asked about continuity errors, he would give a very
> expressive shrug and say, "The name's Anderson, not God."
consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind" or something like
that in one of his story introductions?
pete...@gmail.com
Dec 4, 2022, 1:37:07 AM12/4/22
to
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and
philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He
may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now
in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though
it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.'
— Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates,
and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise
spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.”
Or:
“Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.)”
― Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass
Pt
Robert Carnegie
Dec 4, 2022, 11:42:21 AM12/4/22
to
On Sunday, 4 December 2022 at 06:37:07 UTC, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 5:43:00 PM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
> > > (Hal Heydt)
> > > Can't speak to world building inconsistencies, but when Poul
> > > Anderson was asked about continuity errors, he would give a very
> > > expressive shrug and say, "The name's Anderson, not God."
> > Didn't Asimov quote something along the lines of "A foolish
> > consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind" or something like
> > that in one of his story introductions?
>
> Ralph Waldo Emerson, in 'Self Reliance':
And in more than one story intro or outro bits in
> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 5:43:00 PM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
> > > (Hal Heydt)
> > > Can't speak to world building inconsistencies, but when Poul
> > > Anderson was asked about continuity errors, he would give a very
> > > expressive shrug and say, "The name's Anderson, not God."
> > Didn't Asimov quote something along the lines of "A foolish
> > consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind" or something like
> > that in one of his story introductions?
>
> Ralph Waldo Emerson, in 'Self Reliance':
"The Early Asimov", I think. Such as what technology
did and didn't exist in Wendell Urth stories. Specifically,
assuming you'd read the first explanation, Asimov
described the next problem, simply followed by
a dismissive "Emerson!" Which is to say: he was
acknowledging these glitches.
peterw...@hotmail.com
Dec 4, 2022, 3:30:50 PM12/4/22
to
_Self Reliance_. The paragraph containing the quotation is:
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great
soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with
to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though
it contradict everything you said to-day.—"Ah, so you shall be sure to
be misunderstood."—Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood?
Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther,
and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise
spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."
The essay is available from Project Gutenberg, paragraphs 79 through
Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther,
and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise
spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."
116 in this 1907 collection edited by Edwin Turpin:
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/16643/16643-h/16643-h.htm#SELF-RELIANCE
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
William Hyde
Dec 4, 2022, 6:40:43 PM12/4/22
to
On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 5:43:00 PM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
textbook. At first he quoted the whole sentence, then just wrote "Emerson" in the margins.
William Hyde
Quadibloc
Dec 4, 2022, 8:48:57 PM12/4/22
to
On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 1:30:50 PM UTC-7, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> A brief search suggests that this is from Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay
> _Self Reliance_. The paragraph containing the quotation is:
> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
> statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great
> soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with
> the shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and
> to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though
> it contradict everything you said to-day.—"Ah, so you shall be sure to
> be misunderstood."—Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood?
> Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther,
> and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise
> spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."
In general, I think consistency is a very good thing. But this illustrates
> A brief search suggests that this is from Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay
> _Self Reliance_. The paragraph containing the quotation is:
> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
> statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great
> soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with
> the shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and
> to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though
> it contradict everything you said to-day.—"Ah, so you shall be sure to
> be misunderstood."—Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood?
> Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther,
> and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise
> spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."
one situation that definitely is more important than consistency.
Circumstances may change. When one advocates, at one time, the
actions necessary for that time, one will note the circumstances which
make those actions appropriate.
At another time, different circumstances may make the opposite action
appropriate - and at the first time, one will not have taken the time to
specify, in detail, all the possible circumstances under which the other
action is to be preferred instead.
So one might at least _appear_ inconsistent when one reacts appropriately
to the different circumstances of different times.
John Savard
Robert Woodward
Dec 5, 2022, 12:50:50 AM12/5/22
to
In article <1633263a-6896-41f6...@googlegroups.com>,
not foolish, consistency is mandatory.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
"peterw...@hotmail.com" <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 4:43:00 PM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
> > > (Hal Heydt)
> > > Can't speak to world building inconsistencies, but when Poul
> > > Anderson was asked about continuity errors, he would give a very
> > > expressive shrug and say, "The name's Anderson, not God."
> > Didn't Asimov quote something along the lines of "A foolish
> > consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind" or something like
> > that in one of his story introductions?
>
> A brief search suggests that this is from Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay
> _Self Reliance_. The paragraph containing the quotation is:
>
> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
> statesmen and philosophers and divines.
Speaking as a computer programmer, I hold that not only is consistency
> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 4:43:00 PM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> > Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
> > > (Hal Heydt)
> > > Can't speak to world building inconsistencies, but when Poul
> > > Anderson was asked about continuity errors, he would give a very
> > > expressive shrug and say, "The name's Anderson, not God."
> > Didn't Asimov quote something along the lines of "A foolish
> > consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind" or something like
> > that in one of his story introductions?
>
> A brief search suggests that this is from Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay
> _Self Reliance_. The paragraph containing the quotation is:
>
> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
> statesmen and philosophers and divines.
not foolish, consistency is mandatory.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
Quadibloc
Dec 5, 2022, 9:58:35 AM12/5/22
to
On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 6:48:57 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> So one might at least _appear_ inconsistent when one reacts appropriately
> to the different circumstances of different times.
Thus, as I had only heard "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of
> So one might at least _appear_ inconsistent when one reacts appropriately
> to the different circumstances of different times.
little minds" _out of context_ previously, I had disagreed, and, indeed,
dismissed it. But hearing it _in context_ for the first time, now I agree
with Ralph Waldo Emerson was saying.
John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
Dec 5, 2022, 1:44:06 PM12/5/22
to
In article <tmaenk$fs8$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
(Hal Heydt)
As I recall, early on COVID hit minority communities harder than
caucasion communities. The association of minorities voting
largely Democratic would have give the perception you mention.
Later, the spread of antivaxx and "magical" (Ivermectin,
anyone?) cures ore preventatives has, so far as I know, been more
prevalent in conservative areas, thus leading to the current
death rates being higher for heavier Republican areas.
As for Trump himself...recall that when he stated at a rally that
he'd been vaccinated, he was booed by the crowd.
As I recall, early on COVID hit minority communities harder than
caucasion communities. The association of minorities voting
largely Democratic would have give the perception you mention.
Later, the spread of antivaxx and "magical" (Ivermectin,
anyone?) cures ore preventatives has, so far as I know, been more
prevalent in conservative areas, thus leading to the current
death rates being higher for heavier Republican areas.
As for Trump himself...recall that when he stated at a rally that
he'd been vaccinated, he was booed by the crowd.
Titus G
Dec 5, 2022, 2:23:21 PM12/5/22
to
On 5/12/22 18:50, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <1633263a-6896-41f6...@googlegroups.com>,
> "peterw...@hotmail.com" <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 4:43:00 PM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
>>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>>> Can't speak to world building inconsistencies, but when Poul
>>>> Anderson was asked about continuity errors, he would give a very
>>>> expressive shrug and say, "The name's Anderson, not God."
>>> Didn't Asimov quote something along the lines of "A foolish
>>> consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind" or something like
>>> that in one of his story introductions?
>>
>> A brief search suggests that this is from Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay
>> _Self Reliance_. The paragraph containing the quotation is:
>>
>> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
>> statesmen and philosophers and divines.
>
> Speaking as a computer programmer, I hold that not only is consistency
> not foolish, consistency is mandatory.
>
You are operating in a closed system where all variables are known.
> In article <1633263a-6896-41f6...@googlegroups.com>,
> "peterw...@hotmail.com" <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, December 3, 2022 at 4:43:00 PM UTC-6, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> schrieb:
>>>> (Hal Heydt)
>>>> Can't speak to world building inconsistencies, but when Poul
>>>> Anderson was asked about continuity errors, he would give a very
>>>> expressive shrug and say, "The name's Anderson, not God."
>>> Didn't Asimov quote something along the lines of "A foolish
>>> consistency is the hobgoblin of a little mind" or something like
>>> that in one of his story introductions?
>>
>> A brief search suggests that this is from Ralph Waldo Emerson's essay
>> _Self Reliance_. The paragraph containing the quotation is:
>>
>> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
>> statesmen and philosophers and divines.
>
> Speaking as a computer programmer, I hold that not only is consistency
> not foolish, consistency is mandatory.
>
World building is somewhat different.
Jack Bohn
Dec 6, 2022, 9:18:37 AM12/6/22
to
More often I wonder if what I said makes any sense.
--
-Jack
Mike Van Pelt
Dec 6, 2022, 5:28:46 PM12/6/22
to
In article <rMFKu...@kithrup.com>,
COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
I take vitamin D myself, and recommend it to everyone, especially
to those with darker skin color.
It's one of those "Well, it's cheap, and it couldn't hurt"
things. (Unless you go completely nuts overdosing on the
stuff, of course.). Supposedly, it's a good thing for the
immune system in general.
>Later, the spread of antivaxx and "magical" (Ivermectin,
>anyone?) cures ore preventatives has, so far as I know, been more
>prevalent in conservative areas, thus leading to the current
>death rates being higher for heavier Republican areas.
I recall back when Trump was president, Andrew Coumo speaking
very negatively about the upcoming vaccines. Apparently, because
of the resident of the White House, vaccines developed during
his administration would have orange cooties in it or something.
>As for Trump himself...recall that when he stated at a rally that
>he'd been vaccinated, he was booed by the crowd.
Double vaxxed and triple boosted, myself.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>(Hal Heydt)
>As I recall, early on COVID hit minority communities harder than
>caucasion communities. The association of minorities voting
>largely Democratic would have give the perception you mention.
I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
>(Hal Heydt)
>As I recall, early on COVID hit minority communities harder than
>caucasion communities. The association of minorities voting
>largely Democratic would have give the perception you mention.
COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
I take vitamin D myself, and recommend it to everyone, especially
to those with darker skin color.
It's one of those "Well, it's cheap, and it couldn't hurt"
things. (Unless you go completely nuts overdosing on the
stuff, of course.). Supposedly, it's a good thing for the
immune system in general.
>Later, the spread of antivaxx and "magical" (Ivermectin,
>anyone?) cures ore preventatives has, so far as I know, been more
>prevalent in conservative areas, thus leading to the current
>death rates being higher for heavier Republican areas.
very negatively about the upcoming vaccines. Apparently, because
of the resident of the White House, vaccines developed during
his administration would have orange cooties in it or something.
>As for Trump himself...recall that when he stated at a rally that
>he'd been vaccinated, he was booed by the crowd.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Dec 6, 2022, 7:23:59 PM12/6/22
to
Mike Van Pelt <use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote in news:tmofmp$b5kd$1
@dont-email.me:
> In article <rMFKu...@kithrup.com>,
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>As I recall, early on COVID hit minority communities harder than
>>caucasion communities. The association of minorities voting
>>largely Democratic would have give the perception you mention.
>
> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels.
A common belief. But, according to the NIH, "There is insufficient
evidence for the Panel to recommend either for or against the use
of vitamin D for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19." The
studies "had significant limitations."
https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/supplement
s/vitamin-d/
> And vitamin D levels
> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
>
> I take vitamin D myself, and recommend it to everyone, especially
> to those with darker skin color.
>
> It's one of those "Well, it's cheap, and it couldn't hurt"
> things. (Unless you go completely nuts overdosing on the
> stuff, of course.). Supposedly, it's a good thing for the
> immune system in general.
Vitamin D deficiency isn't particularly rare, it is try.
*both* ends of the political spectrum, in terms of news medai) that
mRNA vaccines were somehow "new," when, in fact, they were the end
result of 50 years of research, and the human trials on the COVID
mRNA vaccines took place pretty much exactly on the timeline one
would expect, pandemic or no, after successful animal trials (that
were pre-pandemic). The researchers were simply looking for the
best opportunity for the first human vaccine. And found it.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
@dont-email.me:
> In article <rMFKu...@kithrup.com>,
> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>As I recall, early on COVID hit minority communities harder than
>>caucasion communities. The association of minorities voting
>>largely Democratic would have give the perception you mention.
>
> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels.
evidence for the Panel to recommend either for or against the use
of vitamin D for the prevention or treatment of COVID-19." The
studies "had significant limitations."
https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/supplement
s/vitamin-d/
> And vitamin D levels
> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
>
> I take vitamin D myself, and recommend it to everyone, especially
> to those with darker skin color.
>
> It's one of those "Well, it's cheap, and it couldn't hurt"
> things. (Unless you go completely nuts overdosing on the
> stuff, of course.). Supposedly, it's a good thing for the
> immune system in general.
>
>>Later, the spread of antivaxx and "magical" (Ivermectin,
>>anyone?) cures ore preventatives has, so far as I know, been more
>>prevalent in conservative areas, thus leading to the current
>>death rates being higher for heavier Republican areas.
>
> I recall back when Trump was president, Andrew Coumo speaking
> very negatively about the upcoming vaccines. Apparently, because
> of the resident of the White House, vaccines developed during
> his administration would have orange cooties in it or something.
There was a widespread - and completely bogus - belief (promoted by
>>Later, the spread of antivaxx and "magical" (Ivermectin,
>>anyone?) cures ore preventatives has, so far as I know, been more
>>prevalent in conservative areas, thus leading to the current
>>death rates being higher for heavier Republican areas.
>
> I recall back when Trump was president, Andrew Coumo speaking
> very negatively about the upcoming vaccines. Apparently, because
> of the resident of the White House, vaccines developed during
> his administration would have orange cooties in it or something.
*both* ends of the political spectrum, in terms of news medai) that
mRNA vaccines were somehow "new," when, in fact, they were the end
result of 50 years of research, and the human trials on the COVID
mRNA vaccines took place pretty much exactly on the timeline one
would expect, pandemic or no, after successful animal trials (that
were pre-pandemic). The researchers were simply looking for the
best opportunity for the first human vaccine. And found it.
>
>>As for Trump himself...recall that when he stated at a rally that
>>he'd been vaccinated, he was booed by the crowd.
>
> Double vaxxed and triple boosted, myself.
Ditto.
>>As for Trump himself...recall that when he stated at a rally that
>>he'd been vaccinated, he was booed by the crowd.
>
> Double vaxxed and triple boosted, myself.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Joy Beeson
Dec 6, 2022, 11:00:44 PM12/6/22
to
On Tue, 6 Dec 2022 22:28:41 -0000 (UTC), Mike Van Pelt
<use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
> It's one of those "Well, it's cheap, and it couldn't hurt"
> things. (Unless you go completely nuts overdosing on the
> stuff, of course.). Supposedly, it's a good thing for the
> immune system in general.
My doctor uses blood tests to make sure I'm neither overdosing nor
<use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
> It's one of those "Well, it's cheap, and it couldn't hurt"
> things. (Unless you go completely nuts overdosing on the
> stuff, of course.). Supposedly, it's a good thing for the
> immune system in general.
underdosing on Vitamin D.
Almost all old folks need extra D. We go out less often, dress more
warmly, drink less milk, wear more sunscreen (sunscreen hadn't even
been invented when I was young and spry) -- and worn-down systems need
more repair supplies.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
pete...@gmail.com
Dec 7, 2022, 8:59:32 AM12/7/22
to
On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 11:00:44 PM UTC-5, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Dec 2022 22:28:41 -0000 (UTC), Mike Van Pelt
> <use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
>
> > It's one of those "Well, it's cheap, and it couldn't hurt"
> > things. (Unless you go completely nuts overdosing on the
> > stuff, of course.). Supposedly, it's a good thing for the
> > immune system in general.
> My doctor uses blood tests to make sure I'm neither overdosing nor
> underdosing on Vitamin D.
>
> Almost all old folks need extra D. We go out less often, dress more
> warmly, drink less milk, wear more sunscreen (sunscreen hadn't even
> been invented when I was young and spry) -- and worn-down systems need
> more repair supplies.
I take 5000 IU a day. Started early in the pandemic.
> On Tue, 6 Dec 2022 22:28:41 -0000 (UTC), Mike Van Pelt
> <use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
>
> > It's one of those "Well, it's cheap, and it couldn't hurt"
> > things. (Unless you go completely nuts overdosing on the
> > stuff, of course.). Supposedly, it's a good thing for the
> > immune system in general.
> My doctor uses blood tests to make sure I'm neither overdosing nor
> underdosing on Vitamin D.
>
> Almost all old folks need extra D. We go out less often, dress more
> warmly, drink less milk, wear more sunscreen (sunscreen hadn't even
> been invented when I was young and spry) -- and worn-down systems need
> more repair supplies.
Held off catching COVID until this summer, but it was
over quickly.
pt
BCFD36
Dec 7, 2022, 3:58:32 PM12/7/22
to
On 12/5/22 11:23, Titus G wrote:
> On 5/12/22 18:50, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> In article <1633263a-6896-41f6...@googlegroups.com>,
>> "peterw...@hotmail.com" <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
[stuff deleted]
> On 5/12/22 18:50, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> In article <1633263a-6896-41f6...@googlegroups.com>,
>> "peterw...@hotmail.com" <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Speaking as a computer programmer, I hold that not only is consistency
>> not foolish, consistency is mandatory.
>>
>
> You are operating in a closed system where all variables are known.
> World building is somewhat different.
When I was working on the AEHF satellite or the Orion capsule, there
were so many unknown variables and the system was so NOT closed it
boggles the mind that those systems work at all.
We tried to close the system as much as possible, and dream up lots of
different ways things could go wrong, but getting all the possibilities
was impossible.
But I wholeheartedly agree that you have to be consistent within your
program. Whether or not things have to be consistent in your short story
or novel, well, that seems to be the debate here.
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Definitely Retired)
Christian Weisgerber
Dec 7, 2022, 5:31:56 PM12/7/22
to
On 2022-12-06, Mike Van Pelt <use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
outcomes and low vitamin D levels. Except when somebody runs a
controlled trial, then those correlations tend to disappear.
It is quite vexing.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Mike Van Pelt
Dec 8, 2022, 2:11:22 AM12/8/22
to
In article <slrntp225t...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2022-12-06, Mike Van Pelt <use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
>
>> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
>> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
>> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
>
>There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
>outcomes and low vitamin D levels. Except when somebody runs a
>controlled trial, then those correlations tend to disappear.
>It is quite vexing.
It acts differently when observed? Obviously a quantum effect! :)
>On 2022-12-06, Mike Van Pelt <use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
>
>> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
>> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
>> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
>
>There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
>outcomes and low vitamin D levels. Except when somebody runs a
>controlled trial, then those correlations tend to disappear.
>It is quite vexing.
Thomas Koenig
Dec 13, 2022, 3:34:39 PM12/13/22
to
Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> schrieb:
Birthdays are good for your health - studies show that people
with more birthdays live longer.
Birthdays are bad for your health - studies show that people
with more birthdays have more health problems.
> On 2022-12-06, Mike Van Pelt <use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
>
>> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
>> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
>> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
>
> There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
> outcomes and low vitamin D levels.
There are all sorts of correlations.
>
>> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
>> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
>> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
>
> There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
> outcomes and low vitamin D levels.
Birthdays are good for your health - studies show that people
with more birthdays live longer.
Birthdays are bad for your health - studies show that people
with more birthdays have more health problems.
Paul S Person
Dec 14, 2022, 11:59:25 AM12/14/22
to
On Wed, 7 Dec 2022 21:42:21 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
<na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2022-12-06, Mike Van Pelt <use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
>
>> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
>> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
>> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
>
>There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
>outcomes and low vitamin D levels. Except when somebody runs a
>controlled trial, then those correlations tend to disappear.
>It is quite vexing.
It may be a demonstration of the logical fallacy "post hoc, ergo
<na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>On 2022-12-06, Mike Van Pelt <use...@mikevanpelt.com> wrote:
>
>> I belive that there's significant correlation between bad
>> COVID outcomes and vitamin D levels. And vitamin D levels
>> correlate with sun exposure and skin darkness.
>
>There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
>outcomes and low vitamin D levels. Except when somebody runs a
>controlled trial, then those correlations tend to disappear.
>It is quite vexing.
propter hoc". Or, in this case, an illustration of "correlation is not
causation".
A /scientist/, faced with this situation, would investigate further to
see if either of these possibilities applies:
a) the causation flows the other way: certain bad health outcomes
correlate with low vitamin D levels -- this would require finding
people with those outcomes and measuring their vitamin D levels; if
that is /actually/ what is driving this, then /actually/ seeing if
vitamin D levels (measured in a general population) correlate with bad
health outcomes might be a good idea
b) something else entirely produces /both/ the bad health outcomes
/and/ the low vitamin D levels
After which a controlled trial to see if the new correlation makes
medical sense can be done.
Other possibilities exist. For example, has anyone tried to cure some
of those outcomes (not using Vitamin D, but something known to work)
and see if the Vitamin D level improves as well?
This, of course, is because scientists, as opposed to food fanatics,
are interested in finding out what is actually going on, not in
proving their deeply-held religious beliefs.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."
Robert Carnegie
Dec 15, 2022, 6:40:00 PM12/15/22
to
is a vitamin - its role in bone health is not in doubt.
And a dose well above what seems necessary is safe.
So if a patient has low vitamin D, then supplementing
that is always on the agenda. Not treating another
condition and seeing if the vitamin D situation improves.
Don
Dec 15, 2022, 9:42:06 PM12/15/22
to
Vitamin D is an ingrained taxonomic error. It's actually a hormone.
the thought is that vitamin D is more of a multifunctional
hormone or prohormone. This is because vitamin D plays
contributes to many processes in the body. Calcitriol has
been shown to have enhancing effects on the immune system,
the cardiovascular system, the endocrine system, and other
metabolic pathways. There is evidence that vitamin D has
also a role in depression, pain, and cancer.
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33549285/>
Danke,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.
the thought is that vitamin D is more of a multifunctional
hormone or prohormone. This is because vitamin D plays
contributes to many processes in the body. Calcitriol has
been shown to have enhancing effects on the immune system,
the cardiovascular system, the endocrine system, and other
metabolic pathways. There is evidence that vitamin D has
also a role in depression, pain, and cancer.
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33549285/>
Danke,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. Walk humbly with thy God.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' Make 1984 fiction again.
Paul S Person
Dec 16, 2022, 11:30:22 AM12/16/22
to
the /post hoc, ergo propter hoc/ assertions /are not confirmed/ by
controlled trials.
And /that/ means that further research and testing are needed to find
out what is /really/ going on.
And, yes, one possibility is that the people with "certain disorders"
would, if those disorders were otherwise cured, have higher Vitamin D
levels (with their Vitamin D intake held constant).
And there is /nothing/ unethical in /curing a disease/ and then
/checking Vitamin D levels/. There /is/, however, something unethical
in pretending that Vitamin D helps with conditions which it does not,
as appears to be the case, actually help.
It helps to keep the eye on the ball, and not get distracted by
anything else.
Andrew McDowell
Dec 17, 2022, 8:43:21 AM12/17/22
to
Kevrob
Dec 20, 2022, 6:54:59 PM12/20/22
to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhNlbKWvR1w&ab_channel=ChristonDavis
{From SCTV, "Beauty and The Beets."}
--
Kevin R
The Horny Goat
Dec 25, 2022, 1:59:40 AM12/25/22
to
On 29 Nov 2022 04:54:49 GMT, t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:
>>You know, half of our presidents were below average presidents.
>>
>>Lynn
>>
>
>That'd be below median presidents, wouldn't it?
If they're all of equal ability then median = average.
If you've got one major outlier (say "German chancellors 1918-2018')
the nearly everybody's better than Hitler. Similarly if you're one of
those who considers JFK walked with the heavenly angels while in
office nearly everybody's below average.
With JFK some would argue he was distinguished for creating and ending
the Cuban Missile Crisis. Others would argue his sexual history upon
the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office.....
<tednolan>) wrote:
>>You know, half of our presidents were below average presidents.
>>
>>Lynn
>>
>
>That'd be below median presidents, wouldn't it?
If they're all of equal ability then median = average.
If you've got one major outlier (say "German chancellors 1918-2018')
the nearly everybody's better than Hitler. Similarly if you're one of
those who considers JFK walked with the heavenly angels while in
office nearly everybody's below average.
With JFK some would argue he was distinguished for creating and ending
the Cuban Missile Crisis. Others would argue his sexual history upon
the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office.....
The Horny Goat
Dec 25, 2022, 2:01:18 AM12/25/22
to
On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 20:25:45 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:
>(Hal Heydt)
>Mean, median, mode. Take your pick. 46 isn't a large enough
>sample size to insure that all three will be at the same place in
>a normal distribution.
So what are you saying? With another 500 years of presidents we'll
have a meaningful sample size?
Would love to be around to see..... though mostly I'd want to be there
to ensure my offspring and the world generally muddled through
alright.
wrote:
>(Hal Heydt)
>Mean, median, mode. Take your pick. 46 isn't a large enough
>sample size to insure that all three will be at the same place in
>a normal distribution.
So what are you saying? With another 500 years of presidents we'll
have a meaningful sample size?
Would love to be around to see..... though mostly I'd want to be there
to ensure my offspring and the world generally muddled through
alright.
The Horny Goat
Dec 25, 2022, 2:03:21 AM12/25/22
to
On 1 Dec 2022 02:19:05 GMT, Chris Buckley <al...@sabir.com> wrote:
>Trump got a number of things wrong about Covid. But so did everybody.
>The WHO and CDC finally said that Covid was primarily spread by aerosol
>airborne transmission in April 2021! (It was surface transmission plus
>direct being coughed upon before that.)
>
My daughter is conviced that she got her dose from my baby
>Trump got a number of things wrong about Covid. But so did everybody.
>The WHO and CDC finally said that Covid was primarily spread by aerosol
>airborne transmission in April 2021! (It was surface transmission plus
>direct being coughed upon before that.)
>
granddaughter (her niece) sneezing directly in her face after my son
(baby's dad) flew home from a corporate course in Dallas and believes
he caught it there but hugged his baby when he got home and found out
later the gift he got from Texas.....
Scott Lurndal
Dec 25, 2022, 12:02:02 PM12/25/22
to
The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca> writes:
>On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 20:25:45 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>Mean, median, mode. Take your pick. 46 isn't a large enough
>>sample size to insure that all three will be at the same place in
>>a normal distribution.
>
>So what are you saying? With another 500 years of presidents we'll
>have a meaningful sample size?
The sample size is large enough. Here's a pretty good rating,
>On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 20:25:45 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>(Hal Heydt)
>>Mean, median, mode. Take your pick. 46 isn't a large enough
>>sample size to insure that all three will be at the same place in
>>a normal distribution.
>
>So what are you saying? With another 500 years of presidents we'll
>have a meaningful sample size?
based on objective criteria. Lynn's guy does not come off well
at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_presidents_of_the_United_States#Siena_College_Research_Institute,_Presidential_Expert_Poll_of_2022
The Horny Goat
Dec 28, 2022, 1:25:30 AM12/28/22
to
On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 09:41:05 -0800, Paul S Person
<pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>And, should the pandemic resurge (I hope it won't, but who can say for
>sure?), he may even manage to do what Trump never even tried to do --
>provide /national/ leadership, not just stir up the base.
>
>>And the Republicans under him tried to do better in elections by
>>hindering black people in voting. Isn't that enough to automatically
>>dismiss the entire party as pure evil?
>
>Those same Republicans (well, the ones in Arizona, anyway) are now
>whining because they did all they could to suppress "them" and the
>Dems /still/ won most of the major races.
>
>Trump and his semi-fascist Trump-fanatic base/party apparatchiks
>simply do not understand that, by actually achieving a 40-year goal
>(reversing Roe v Wade) they unleashed a lot of resentment even in
>(say) Arizona. Studies have apparently shown that, in some States, 20%
>more females than males registered to vote in the mid-terms. Guess
>which Party /they/ voted for -- the Party of Men Control Women's
>Bodies, or the Party of No They Don't?
>
>They are also hobbled by their view of how elections work:
>1) Those graciously permitted by their Republican-controlled
>legislature to vote do so.
>2) All Republicans win.
>3) Anything else is the result of massive voter fraud.
>which, sadly for them, does not correspond with reality.
Weimar Germany - in 1928-33 you had a situation where both the extreme
right and left had blocs of 40+% of the electorate - then the great
depression hit and there was a feeling of national desperation. The
trouble was the electoral balance was such that the centrist forces
were savaged to the benefit of the German Nazis and Communists to the
degree that no workable coalition could be forged.
The GOP now have the always-Trump (which includes both the over the
edge Trumpists and the QAnon types) while the Dems have allowed the
Marxist element in their party to grow - I'm talking about the
Sanderites and the even more extreme members of the Tribe, the hard
core BLM types and the kind of people who think there is ever a
justification for arson, rioting and looting.
Face it, the moderate Republicans and Democrats of 1980-2000 are being
squeezed and their riotous supporters are starting to seize the
agenda. Without the center you have anarchy - which wouldn't be too
bad if it were some micro-state but is catastrophic when it's a
country as important to the world as is the USA.
I think I know my US history reasonably well and the only time you
folks came CLOSE to that level was 1860-65 when the USA wasn't nearly
as important to the world as it is now.
Bottom line is that in this age the world does well when the United
States States does well and suffers both economically and from
foreign dictators when she doesn't.
Both Trump and Biden scare me a lot.
<pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>And, should the pandemic resurge (I hope it won't, but who can say for
>sure?), he may even manage to do what Trump never even tried to do --
>provide /national/ leadership, not just stir up the base.
>
>>And the Republicans under him tried to do better in elections by
>>hindering black people in voting. Isn't that enough to automatically
>>dismiss the entire party as pure evil?
>
>Those same Republicans (well, the ones in Arizona, anyway) are now
>whining because they did all they could to suppress "them" and the
>Dems /still/ won most of the major races.
>
>Trump and his semi-fascist Trump-fanatic base/party apparatchiks
>simply do not understand that, by actually achieving a 40-year goal
>(reversing Roe v Wade) they unleashed a lot of resentment even in
>(say) Arizona. Studies have apparently shown that, in some States, 20%
>more females than males registered to vote in the mid-terms. Guess
>which Party /they/ voted for -- the Party of Men Control Women's
>Bodies, or the Party of No They Don't?
>
>They are also hobbled by their view of how elections work:
>1) Those graciously permitted by their Republican-controlled
>legislature to vote do so.
>2) All Republicans win.
>3) Anything else is the result of massive voter fraud.
>which, sadly for them, does not correspond with reality.
>--
>"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
>development was the disintegration, under Christian
>influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
>of family right."
One of the reasons I'm fearful for the United States is the example of
>"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
>development was the disintegration, under Christian
>influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
>of family right."
Weimar Germany - in 1928-33 you had a situation where both the extreme
right and left had blocs of 40+% of the electorate - then the great
depression hit and there was a feeling of national desperation. The
trouble was the electoral balance was such that the centrist forces
were savaged to the benefit of the German Nazis and Communists to the
degree that no workable coalition could be forged.
The GOP now have the always-Trump (which includes both the over the
edge Trumpists and the QAnon types) while the Dems have allowed the
Marxist element in their party to grow - I'm talking about the
Sanderites and the even more extreme members of the Tribe, the hard
core BLM types and the kind of people who think there is ever a
justification for arson, rioting and looting.
Face it, the moderate Republicans and Democrats of 1980-2000 are being
squeezed and their riotous supporters are starting to seize the
agenda. Without the center you have anarchy - which wouldn't be too
bad if it were some micro-state but is catastrophic when it's a
country as important to the world as is the USA.
I think I know my US history reasonably well and the only time you
folks came CLOSE to that level was 1860-65 when the USA wasn't nearly
as important to the world as it is now.
Bottom line is that in this age the world does well when the United
States States does well and suffers both economically and from
foreign dictators when she doesn't.
Both Trump and Biden scare me a lot.
Andrew McDowell
Dec 28, 2022, 1:19:25 PM12/28/22
to
Both Trump and Biden (and Sanders) are old enough that they cannot long be much more than figureheads of a team of handlers. I can't imagine Trump taking up such a role willingly, but time will eventually present him with a handicap that sheer will and self-belief cannot overcome.
(Monster Hunter Memoirs was also called Monster Hunters Grunge. I liked it a lot more than the main Monster Hunters books - I think there is a Monster Hunters Disco promised for 2023 - I will probably buy at least the first of these).
Quadibloc
Dec 30, 2022, 1:40:35 AM12/30/22
to
On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 3:28:46 PM UTC-7, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> I take vitamin D myself, and recommend it to everyone, especially
> to those with darker skin color.
This reminds me. Back when DC comics decided to add Vathlo
> I take vitamin D myself, and recommend it to everyone, especially
> to those with darker skin color.
Island to the geography of Krypton, a planet with a _red_ sun,
which, thus, would recieve much less ultraviolet radiation from
it than Earth receives from its sun...
my thought at the time would be that Vathlo Island's chief
import would be cod-liver oil. In other words, it was added
purely for purposes of achieving diversity, without any
thought as to how a population, nearly identical to Earth
humans, would develop under Kryptonian conditions.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Dec 30, 2022, 1:44:26 AM12/30/22
to
On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:31:56 PM UTC-7, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
> outcomes and low vitamin D levels. Except when somebody runs a
> controlled trial, then those correlations tend to disappear.
> It is quite vexing.
Obviously, then, those bad health outcomes are due to other
> There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
> outcomes and low vitamin D levels. Except when somebody runs a
> controlled trial, then those correlations tend to disappear.
> It is quite vexing.
environmental consequences of a low income, which is a
potential cause of low vitamin D levels, and _not_ of the low
vitamin D level itself; the controls eliminate those other
environmental factors, leaving only the vitamin D level itself
behind.
Or, at least, this is obviously the most likely explanation, even
if controlled studies are needed to make this more than a
hypothesis.
John Savard
Andrew McDowell
Dec 30, 2022, 2:51:40 AM12/30/22
to
I am skeptical about all theories of harm due to relative low income, and even of some theories of harm due to absolute low income in modern first world countries because some immigrant populations to first world countries have demonstrated that they can produce a large number of exceptionally talented individuals from very unpromising circumstances, with an apparent common factor being a cultural enthusiasm for education.
Paul S Person
Dec 30, 2022, 12:20:15 PM12/30/22
to
1) When I stated that new studies would be needed to find out what is
really going on, I was, of course, taking it for granted that the
reported study trying to show that Vitamin D helps with "certain
conditions" had, indeed, shown no such effect. And that this was the
accepted reality in the relevant scientific field. No doubt you are
doing the same.
2) While other environmental causes are possible, it may be something
else entirely. Until it is investigated properly, who can say?
3) Unless the (unspecified) "certain conditions" are heavily biased
toward "low income conditions", your hypothesis (which may
nevertheless turn out to be correct, who can say?) may be based more
on your beliefs than on science. After all, for all /we/ know, these
(unspecified) "certain conditions" may be far more prevelant among
those with high incomes.
Paul S Person
Dec 30, 2022, 12:28:00 PM12/30/22
to
On Thu, 29 Dec 2022 23:51:38 -0800 (PST), Andrew McDowell
<mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 6:44:26 AM UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:31:56 PM UTC-7, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>
>> > There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
>> > outcomes and low vitamin D levels. Except when somebody runs a
>> > controlled trial, then those correlations tend to disappear.
>> > It is quite vexing.
>> Obviously, then, those bad health outcomes are due to other
>> environmental consequences of a low income, which is a
>> potential cause of low vitamin D levels, and _not_ of the low
>> vitamin D level itself; the controls eliminate those other
>> environmental factors, leaving only the vitamin D level itself
>> behind.
>>
>> Or, at least, this is obviously the most likely explanation, even
>> if controlled studies are needed to make this more than a
>> hypothesis.
>>
>> John Savard
>In support of Vitamin D, I note that it is recognised as a vitamin in the first place because severe deprivation causes obovious bad effects, so it is not unreasonable to suppose that mild deficiency causes more subtle effects. During Covid the quite sensible UK advice was pretty much "we don't say that Vitamin D will protect you against Covid, but the weather of the UK means that it is entirely sensible for people to take Vitamin D supplements." I take a supermarket multi-vitamin pill myself mostly so that any time a health story comes out that says I should take more of X I can reassure myself that despite having a very boring diet I am not likely to be deficient in X.
There is no need to support Vitamin D. Nobody is attacking it. It just
<mcdow...@sky.com> wrote:
>On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 6:44:26 AM UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:31:56 PM UTC-7, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>
>> > There are significant correlations between all sorts of bad health
>> > outcomes and low vitamin D levels. Except when somebody runs a
>> > controlled trial, then those correlations tend to disappear.
>> > It is quite vexing.
>> Obviously, then, those bad health outcomes are due to other
>> environmental consequences of a low income, which is a
>> potential cause of low vitamin D levels, and _not_ of the low
>> vitamin D level itself; the controls eliminate those other
>> environmental factors, leaving only the vitamin D level itself
>> behind.
>>
>> Or, at least, this is obviously the most likely explanation, even
>> if controlled studies are needed to make this more than a
>> hypothesis.
>>
>> John Savard
>In support of Vitamin D, I note that it is recognised as a vitamin in the first place because severe deprivation causes obovious bad effects, so it is not unreasonable to suppose that mild deficiency causes more subtle effects. During Covid the quite sensible UK advice was pretty much "we don't say that Vitamin D will protect you against Covid, but the weather of the UK means that it is entirely sensible for people to take Vitamin D supplements." I take a supermarket multi-vitamin pill myself mostly so that any time a health story comes out that says I should take more of X I can reassure myself that despite having a very boring diet I am not likely to be deficient in X.
appears to have failed an actual test of it's alleged abilities in
certain (unspecified) medical situations.
>I am skeptical about all theories of harm due to relative low income, and even of some theories of harm due to absolute low income in modern first world countries because some immigrant populations to first world countries have demonstrated that they can produce a large number of exceptionally talented individuals from very unpromising circumstances, with an apparent common factor being a cultural enthusiasm for education.
One of the (IIRC two) African-American male teenagers who "integrated"
our lily-white High School in the 60s later reported that his new
environment was completely different from his old one: here,
/everyone/ was going to college; there, "college" was an unattainable
dream. And the instruction given matched the expectations of the
adults-in-charge.
And, as you pointed out, culture and expectations have a lot to do
with it. To the point that, in at least one case, it has become a
stereotype.
And most of the "low income" theories I have seen make perfect sense.
Nonetheless, it is true that anything can be made into an excuse by
those who prefer not to try. The trick is to realize that "prefer not
to try" and "lower income" are /not/ synomyms, and that lower income
may indeed handicap some individuals.
Dimensional Traveler
Dec 30, 2022, 12:51:16 PM12/30/22
to
be able to afford all the medical care that is available (and affordable
by the wealthy) thereby leading to higher incident rates of
"preventable" medical conditions. It leads to situations like the poor
waiting until a condition becomes critical and then having to go the a
hospital Emergency Room because they don't have a physician they can see
regularly.
--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.
Quadibloc
Dec 30, 2022, 6:20:43 PM12/30/22
to
On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 8:40:02 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire quoted, in part:
> 1. Commercial Storytellers
> 2. The Weirds
> 3. Hard Sciencers
> 4. Military Conservatives
> 5. Progressive Fantasists
> 6. YA Adventurers
> 7. The LitFic Tourists
> 8. Sexy Beasts
I finally went to look at the article.
These are apparently the eight divisions of science-fiction writers
today.
And not one of them is turning out the kind of science fiction that
I think is the best. Stuff like Arthur C. Clarke's _Against the Fall of
Night_.
John Savard
> 1. Commercial Storytellers
> 2. The Weirds
> 3. Hard Sciencers
> 4. Military Conservatives
> 5. Progressive Fantasists
> 6. YA Adventurers
> 7. The LitFic Tourists
> 8. Sexy Beasts
I finally went to look at the article.
These are apparently the eight divisions of science-fiction writers
today.
And not one of them is turning out the kind of science fiction that
I think is the best. Stuff like Arthur C. Clarke's _Against the Fall of
Night_.
John Savard
Quadibloc
Dec 30, 2022, 6:37:00 PM12/30/22
to
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 10:20:15 AM UTC-7, Paul S Person wrote:
> 3) Unless the (unspecified) "certain conditions" are heavily biased
> toward "low income conditions", your hypothesis (which may
> nevertheless turn out to be correct, who can say?) may be based more
> on your beliefs than on science. After all, for all /we/ know, these
> (unspecified) "certain conditions" may be far more prevelant among
> those with high incomes.
This is an interesting response.
> 3) Unless the (unspecified) "certain conditions" are heavily biased
> toward "low income conditions", your hypothesis (which may
> nevertheless turn out to be correct, who can say?) may be based more
> on your beliefs than on science. After all, for all /we/ know, these
> (unspecified) "certain conditions" may be far more prevelant among
> those with high incomes.
In the United States, because it is a rich country, obesity is actually
more common among people with low incomes than people with
high incomes, the opposite of the *historical* case.
But I didn't think my reasoning was based on an excessive amount
of left-wing ideology. I generally don't stand with Alexandria
Occasio-Cortez, even if I find Donald J. Trump to be much more of
a "clear and present danger" than she is.
My reasoning was as follows:
- Adequate amounts of Vitamin D result from measures such as:
...taking nutritional supplements,
...eating a healthy diet,
...exposing oneself to sunlight, by going to the beach, or even by
taking a holiday in the Carribean.
All these things cost money, and so there will be some correlation
between Vitamin D levels and income.
On top of this, the reason some human subgroups have light skin
is in order to allow ultraviolet light from the Sun to more deeply
penetrate the skin, and more effectively interact with the remaining
melanin in order to produce Vitamin D from sunlight more efficiently.
And so _black_ people face greater obstacles in maintaining adequate
Vitamin D levels; and being black correlates both with lower income
and with other things that have negative health impacts.
- Controlled medical studies attempt to determine the effect of a
factor, such as Vitamin D level, in isolation. So they will compare
people with different Vitamin D levels who have the same income
level, who are of the same race, and so on and so forth.
*Therefore* if the effect of a low Vitamin D level, well-known
anecdotally, is hard to detect in a controlled study... my
conclusion seemed to be the *obvious* one, whether or not it
was the actual truth.
If one is looking for the _specific_ health effects known to be
caused by Vitamin D deficiency, then it shouldn't work that way,
because neither rickets (Vitamin D) nor scurvy (Vitamin C) is
going to be caused outside the respective specific aetiology.
But if one is looking for a debilitated immune system, and the
context was a discussion about a claim the Vitamin D wards off
COVID-19 (I hadn't heard that one, but I recently had a pharmacist
tell me it's great for warding off the flu)... _that_ particular health
problem does seem to me as likely to be one faced more by the
poor than by the rich.
John Savard
Lynn McGuire
Dec 30, 2022, 6:38:56 PM12/30/22
to
works on the 25+ books on my top ten list.
Lynn
Quadibloc
Dec 30, 2022, 6:49:40 PM12/30/22
to
On Friday, December 30, 2022 at 4:38:56 PM UTC-7, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 12/30/2022 5:20 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> > These are apparently the eight divisions of science-fiction writers
> > today.
> >
> > And not one of them is turning out the kind of science fiction that
> > I think is the best. Stuff like Arthur C. Clarke's _Against the Fall of
> > Night_.
> On 12/30/2022 5:20 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> > These are apparently the eight divisions of science-fiction writers
> > today.
> >
> > And not one of them is turning out the kind of science fiction that
> > I think is the best. Stuff like Arthur C. Clarke's _Against the Fall of
> > Night_.
> I think some great SF/F is coming out nowadays. I have several recent
> works on the 25+ books on my top ten list.
That may well be, although my comment was more related to _genre_
> works on the 25+ books on my top ten list.
than _quality_. Of course quality is very important too.
Thinking about the matter, though...
What is the genre I'm thinking about that Arthur C. Clarke's _Against
the Fall of Night_ belongs to?
Well, it's a story that produced the Sense of Wonder dialed up to 11
for a jaded audience that would no longer be impressed by stories
about the first rocket to the Moon, powered by steam.
So, in genre terms, it is a story about the very far future, where
the capabilities that science and technology has given the human
race are incredible by present-day standards.
Now then, _in the present day_, what considerations might an
author reflect upon in writing such a story that... were not present
when such stories were written in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s?
Now is the age of cyberpunk, inspired by the misdeeds of hackers.
Now is the age of stories inspired by Mad Max. Now is the age
that follows September 11, 2001.
So if one assumes that *human nature* is not malleable, that the
"bell curve" of the distribution of human intelligence isn't going to
change...
and technology has advanced to the point that godlike power is
available at your local Radio Shack...
Hmm. But they've fortunately gone out of business!
Well, anyways, you get my point. Something is very likely to
*go wrong*, and so the stories will be about _that_.
John Savard
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