info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
From Quora: remind me, what do you call a fantasy with no fantasy?
151 views
Skip to first unread message
Robert Carnegie
Jun 22, 2021, 12:52:43 PM6/22/21
to
Is there a word for this?
Or is it only what it's not? Non-fantasy? Mundane?
Unmagic realism?
<https://www.quora.com/If-a-book-takes-place-in-a-completely-invented-world-but-this-world-doesnt-have-magic-or-anything-mythical-only-with-humans-and-completely-following-our-laws-of-physics-would-this-book-count-as-a-fantasy-book>
I suspect it appears as a hypothetical question
to kick around. I'm discontented with the answers
so far.
Wikipedia has an article on the unexciting term
"fictional country", another on "worldbuilding"
which doesn't seem to yield a term other than
"world" for the end product, there's "planetary
romance" which applies if the world explicitly
isn't the third planet of Sol, and "paracosm"
which seems to be intended as a term in
psychology, mainly of children, for devising
an imaginary universe and preferring to live
there instead of here. However, the examples
seem to me to include children just playing
in imaginary worlds, and also professional
worldbuilding - they want to include
Terry Pratchett's Discworld and J.R.R. Tolkien's
Middle-Earth, the last of which admittedly seems
to have had publication not a consideration until
it was found to contain hobbits.
There's utopia and dystopia, but this may be neither.
Strictly, "a completely invented world" would
not have past or present Europe, America, Japan,
China, etc., in it, though it may have recognisably
similar countries. The story may be not told at this
scale anyway, but you don't need to invent a new
world to have a fictional county. A fictional country
can just be a long way from known lands and with
no mutual relations. If the number of suns or moons
is different then that seems to be planetary romance
by default, though I say again, Earth should be out there
somewhere; as in Star Wars, but that's set in a galaxy
far away.
A point of definite importance in worldbuilding
and readability, if not terminology, is whether the
invented world has one or more of actual world's
religions, with or without some of its own, or
basically none. Readers who are believers won't
want their own faith to be represented controversially,
may not mind if it's not included, but it may bother them
if the story people have none at all. It's a paradox to have
a planet Earth-founded religion in a place with no
connection to Earth. And days of the week in our world
are formed by several religions, although Middle-Earth
mostly ignored that. C.S. Lewis made creatures on other
planets worship the same god that he did; they had limited
knowledge of Earth, but to them, that wasn't the important
part. Tolkien got a lot of letters from believers complaining...
in general, really. Going by those of his own letters that
were published.
Or is it only what it's not? Non-fantasy? Mundane?
Unmagic realism?
<https://www.quora.com/If-a-book-takes-place-in-a-completely-invented-world-but-this-world-doesnt-have-magic-or-anything-mythical-only-with-humans-and-completely-following-our-laws-of-physics-would-this-book-count-as-a-fantasy-book>
I suspect it appears as a hypothetical question
to kick around. I'm discontented with the answers
so far.
Wikipedia has an article on the unexciting term
"fictional country", another on "worldbuilding"
which doesn't seem to yield a term other than
"world" for the end product, there's "planetary
romance" which applies if the world explicitly
isn't the third planet of Sol, and "paracosm"
which seems to be intended as a term in
psychology, mainly of children, for devising
an imaginary universe and preferring to live
there instead of here. However, the examples
seem to me to include children just playing
in imaginary worlds, and also professional
worldbuilding - they want to include
Terry Pratchett's Discworld and J.R.R. Tolkien's
Middle-Earth, the last of which admittedly seems
to have had publication not a consideration until
it was found to contain hobbits.
There's utopia and dystopia, but this may be neither.
Strictly, "a completely invented world" would
not have past or present Europe, America, Japan,
China, etc., in it, though it may have recognisably
similar countries. The story may be not told at this
scale anyway, but you don't need to invent a new
world to have a fictional county. A fictional country
can just be a long way from known lands and with
no mutual relations. If the number of suns or moons
is different then that seems to be planetary romance
by default, though I say again, Earth should be out there
somewhere; as in Star Wars, but that's set in a galaxy
far away.
A point of definite importance in worldbuilding
and readability, if not terminology, is whether the
invented world has one or more of actual world's
religions, with or without some of its own, or
basically none. Readers who are believers won't
want their own faith to be represented controversially,
may not mind if it's not included, but it may bother them
if the story people have none at all. It's a paradox to have
a planet Earth-founded religion in a place with no
connection to Earth. And days of the week in our world
are formed by several religions, although Middle-Earth
mostly ignored that. C.S. Lewis made creatures on other
planets worship the same god that he did; they had limited
knowledge of Earth, but to them, that wasn't the important
part. Tolkien got a lot of letters from believers complaining...
in general, really. Going by those of his own letters that
were published.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 22, 2021, 1:31:18 PM6/22/21
to
In article <c9bee1c3-890f-454e...@googlegroups.com>,
Between _The Hobbit_ and _The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien offered
his publishers [some version of] _The Silmarillion,_ but they
said it wouldn't sell. As indeed it wouldn't have, at that
point. After _LotR_ came out and collected innumerable fans, it
was a different matter: but by then Tolkien was old enough that
he couldn't collate the multitudinous variants of the stories of
his lifetime.
>
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
his publishers [some version of] _The Silmarillion,_ but they
said it wouldn't sell. As indeed it wouldn't have, at that
point. After _LotR_ came out and collected innumerable fans, it
was a different matter: but by then Tolkien was old enough that
he couldn't collate the multitudinous variants of the stories of
his lifetime.
>
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
Jun 22, 2021, 4:40:50 PM6/22/21
to
On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 10:52:43 AM UTC-6, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> Is there a word for this?
> Or is it only what it's not? Non-fantasy? Mundane?
> Unmagic realism?
> <https://www.quora.com/If-a-book-takes-place-in-a-completely-invented-world-but-this-world-doesnt-have-magic-or-anything-mythical-only-with-humans-and-completely-following-our-laws-of-physics-would-this-book-count-as-a-fantasy-book>
Since it is about a 'completely invented' world, that lets out the first thing that
> Is there a word for this?
> Or is it only what it's not? Non-fantasy? Mundane?
> Unmagic realism?
> <https://www.quora.com/If-a-book-takes-place-in-a-completely-invented-world-but-this-world-doesnt-have-magic-or-anything-mythical-only-with-humans-and-completely-following-our-laws-of-physics-would-this-book-count-as-a-fantasy-book>
came to my mind: alternate history.
I think it would depend on what happened in that world. So one could have, say,
Conan the Barbarian without any magical elements, and that wouldn't shift its
genre too far.
John Savard
Chris Brannon
Jun 23, 2021, 12:12:10 AM6/23/21
to
Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
> Is there a word for this?
>
> Or is it only what it's not? Non-fantasy? Mundane?
> Unmagic realism?
I think it would be covered by the overly-broad term *speculative
> Is there a word for this?
>
> Or is it only what it's not? Non-fantasy? Mundane?
> Unmagic realism?
fiction*.
-- Chris
Moriarty
Jun 23, 2021, 12:40:49 AM6/23/21
to
-Moriarty
David Johnston
Jun 23, 2021, 12:45:22 AM6/23/21
to
On 2021-06-22 10:52 a.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
> Is there a word for this?
Nope. A complete fictional world, that isn't science fiction and
> Is there a word for this?
doesn't have any magic...these there just aren't enough actual examples
of such thing. Now worlds that barely have magic, those are low fantasy.
Titus G
Jun 23, 2021, 1:32:34 AM6/23/21
to
If the former, shame on you for succumbing to a capitalist view of
reality. Would you really believe those people who trick us into
accepting advice from talking animals interrupting television viewing?
Jack Bohn
Jun 23, 2021, 10:27:01 AM6/23/21
to
Among the things Robert Carnegie wrote:
> Is there a word for this?
>
> Or is it only what it's not? Non-fantasy? Mundane?
> Unmagic realism?
>
> <https://www.quora.com/If-a-book-takes-place-in-a-completely-invented-world-but-this-world-doesnt-have-magic-or-anything-mythical-only-with-humans-and-completely-following-our-laws-of-physics-would-this-book-count-as-a-fantasy-book>
>
> I suspect it appears as a hypothetical question
> to kick around. I'm discontented with the answers
> so far.
>
> Is there a word for this?
>
> Or is it only what it's not? Non-fantasy? Mundane?
> Unmagic realism?
>
> <https://www.quora.com/If-a-book-takes-place-in-a-completely-invented-world-but-this-world-doesnt-have-magic-or-anything-mythical-only-with-humans-and-completely-following-our-laws-of-physics-would-this-book-count-as-a-fantasy-book>
>
> I suspect it appears as a hypothetical question
> to kick around. I'm discontented with the answers
> so far.
>
> Strictly, "a completely invented world" would
> not have past or present Europe, America, Japan,
> China, etc., in it, though it may have recognisably
> similar countries.
The anime movie "Wings of Honneamise" or "Royal Space Force" (the Wasp may remember which was the title of the first translation and which is the company's preferred title). Being all drawn anyway, they bothered to come up with new designs for airplanes, motorcycles, and even eating utensils. The "Space Force" in the title is an underfunded military unit still working on the world's first space launch. I've been told there is a map that shows it to be an entirely different planet, or at least alternate geography, but I haven't gone back to check that.
> not have past or present Europe, America, Japan,
> China, etc., in it, though it may have recognisably
> similar countries.
> A fictional country
> can just be a long way from known lands and with
> no mutual relations.
Do we have as much concern about fictional counties or smaller entities? I've never checked if there is a Calaveras County of Mark Twain's celebrated jumping frog. On the other hand Hadleyburg may be a fictional town... or, I suppose, a _nom de travaille_ Twain may have used. Ed McBain's 87th precinct of Isola? Come down to that, the 50th precinct of Hawaii?
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 23, 2021, 11:15:03 AM6/23/21
to
In article <6ffb9b3e-c76c-4505...@googlegroups.com>,
Calaveras [it's Spanish for "skulls}; make of that what you will)
is a real county in California. It's east of Sacramento, in the
foothills of the Sierras. And whether there's any fact in
Twain's story, the celebrated Jumping Frog contest occurs every
year ... now.
On the other hand Hadleyburg may be a
>fictional town... or, I suppose, a _nom de travaille_ Twain may have
>used. Ed McBain's 87th precinct of Isola? Come down to that, the 50th
>precinct of Hawaii?
>
Haven't a clue.
is a real county in California. It's east of Sacramento, in the
foothills of the Sierras. And whether there's any fact in
Twain's story, the celebrated Jumping Frog contest occurs every
year ... now.
On the other hand Hadleyburg may be a
>fictional town... or, I suppose, a _nom de travaille_ Twain may have
>used. Ed McBain's 87th precinct of Isola? Come down to that, the 50th
>precinct of Hawaii?
>
Kevrob
Jun 23, 2021, 12:44:35 PM6/23/21
to
David D Friedman's "Harald."
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/harald/Harald.html
https://www.baen.com/harald.html
I've only read some online preview chapters.
https://www.baen.com/Chapters/1416520562/1416520562.htm
--
Kevin R
Paul S Person
Jun 23, 2021, 12:50:47 PM6/23/21
to
Modern Science.
Conforming to science is not, generally speaking, a bad thing, but in
this case it altered (well, would have altered) a large and amazing
work of art.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Brown
Jun 23, 2021, 1:00:54 PM6/23/21
to
Robert Carnegie
Jun 23, 2021, 2:07:28 PM6/23/21
to
On Wednesday, 23 June 2021 at 15:27:01 UTC+1, jack....@gmail.com wrote:
> Among the things Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > Strictly, "a completely invented world" would
> > not have past or present Europe, America, Japan,
> > China, etc., in it, though it may have recognisably
> > similar countries.
>
> The anime movie "Wings of Honneamise" or "Royal Space Force" (the Wasp may remember which was the title of the first translation and which is the company's preferred title). Being all drawn anyway, they bothered to come up with new designs for airplanes, motorcycles, and even eating utensils. The "Space Force" in the title is an underfunded military unit still working on the world's first space launch. I've been told there is a map that shows it to be an entirely different planet, or at least alternate geography, but I haven't gone back to check that.
Well, "alternate geography" has promise. But it does
> Among the things Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > Strictly, "a completely invented world" would
> > not have past or present Europe, America, Japan,
> > China, etc., in it, though it may have recognisably
> > similar countries.
>
> The anime movie "Wings of Honneamise" or "Royal Space Force" (the Wasp may remember which was the title of the first translation and which is the company's preferred title). Being all drawn anyway, they bothered to come up with new designs for airplanes, motorcycles, and even eating utensils. The "Space Force" in the title is an underfunded military unit still working on the world's first space launch. I've been told there is a map that shows it to be an entirely different planet, or at least alternate geography, but I haven't gone back to check that.
not have its own Wikipedia page. However, it has
<https://www.goodreads.com/genres/alternate-geography>
which I suppose only consists of books where someone
thought of describing / "shelving" them as such.
I also wonder if I want to see the works of Thomas Hardy
there, or at all.
Given what Wikipedia is, the opinion of the last
person who bothered to edit an article, I don't
trust its distinctions, but it seems reasonable
that "alternate history" and "uchronia" consists
of taking existing world history and making one
or more changes in significant events, typically
having longterm effects. Uchronia also allows
wilful anachronism, apparently.
I also find that the "Worldbuilding" page does
contain the term "constructed world", which doesn't
excite me but probably does belong in the fantasy
thesaurus of "possible words for a thing that there
isn't a word for". Except that that's two words, and,
if allowed, it becomes a thing that there is a word for.
But now I prefer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_world>
as "an author-conceived world created in fictional media,
such as literature, film or games", which goes on to
include alternate history /and/ _Star Wars_, but also to
name cases that "make the line between fantasy worlds
and alternate histories fuzzy", unless you just don't
have that line. And "According to Lin Carter in
_Imaginary Worlds: the Art of Fantasy_, fantasy
worlds, by their nature, contain some element of
magic (paranormal)". (Like "The Force", presumably.)
But does there have to be magic? Or is it sufficiently
"magical" that we are being made to know about places
which do not exist?
> > A fictional country
> > can just be a long way from known lands and with
> > no mutual relations.
>
> You've probably run across "Ruritanias" as the generic term for a fictional country, from the novel "Prisoner of Zenda." In the 19th Cent such a country didn't need to be too far away, just small enough to be obscure. ("National Security through National Obscurity!") We could at least still pretend into the 1960s and the Duchy of Grand Fenwick, _The Mouse That Roared_.
>
> Do we have as much concern about fictional counties or smaller entities? I've never checked if there is a Calaveras County of Mark Twain's celebrated jumping frog. On the other hand Hadleyburg may be a fictional town... or, I suppose, a _nom de travaille_ Twain may have used. Ed McBain's 87th precinct of Isola? Come down to that, the 50th precinct of Hawaii?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_states_of_the_United_States>
Which ranges from "where Harvard Law School stages
imaginary law cases" to "where Donald Duck lives".
I am conditionally willing to convert that information -
not there, only here - into a list of the descriptions from
which you may try to remember what each fictional state
is called, if that sounds like more fun than the other way
around as it presently is, and if (someone guide me)
Wikipedia's licence allows that, and if it doesn't turn out
to be a great deal of trouble. And if it hasn't been done
already, such as on alt.history quiz night.
Kevrob
Jun 23, 2021, 2:22:25 PM6/23/21
to
On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 2:07:28 PM UTC-4, Robert Carnegie wrote:
[snip]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_states_of_the_United_States>
>
> Which ranges from "where Harvard Law School stages
> imaginary law cases" to "where Donald Duck lives".
...but also Magica De Spell, so, fantasy.
https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Magica_De_Spell
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
[snip]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_states_of_the_United_States>
>
> Which ranges from "where Harvard Law School stages
> imaginary law cases" to "where Donald Duck lives".
https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/Magica_De_Spell
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Magewolf
Jun 23, 2021, 3:44:49 PM6/23/21
to
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 23, 2021, 4:26:19 PM6/23/21
to
Lawrence Watt-Evans
Jun 24, 2021, 1:23:16 AM6/24/21
to
Magic isn't required for fantasy, it's just very, very common.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.
David Johnston
Jun 24, 2021, 11:44:40 AM6/24/21
to
On 2021-06-23 11:23 p.m., Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:45:17 -0600, David Johnston
> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-06-22 10:52 a.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>> Is there a word for this?
>>
>> Nope. A complete fictional world, that isn't science fiction and
>> doesn't have any magic...these there just aren't enough actual examples
>> of such thing. Now worlds that barely have magic, those are low fantasy.
>
> They're just fantasy -- Gormenghast, and _Swordspoint_, and the like.
> Magic isn't required for fantasy, it's just very, very common.
Didn't Gormenghast turn out to be science fiction in the sequels? In
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:45:17 -0600, David Johnston
> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-06-22 10:52 a.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>> Is there a word for this?
>>
>> Nope. A complete fictional world, that isn't science fiction and
>> doesn't have any magic...these there just aren't enough actual examples
>> of such thing. Now worlds that barely have magic, those are low fantasy.
>
> They're just fantasy -- Gormenghast, and _Swordspoint_, and the like.
> Magic isn't required for fantasy, it's just very, very common.
any case yes, what I was saying is that kind of fantasy is rare enough
(and heterogeneous enough) that it doesn't need a subgenre name.
>
>
>
Michael F. Stemper
Jun 24, 2021, 4:04:06 PM6/24/21
to
On 24/06/2021 10.44, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2021-06-23 11:23 p.m., Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:45:17 -0600, David Johnston
>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-06-22 10:52 a.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>> Is there a word for this?
>>>
>>> Nope. A complete fictional world, that isn't science fiction and
>>> doesn't have any magic...these there just aren't enough actual examples
>>> of such thing. Now worlds that barely have magic, those are low
>>> fantasy.
>>
>> They're just fantasy -- Gormenghast, and _Swordspoint_, and the like.
>> Magic isn't required for fantasy, it's just very, very common.
>
> Didn't Gormenghast turn out to be science fiction in the sequels?
Well, in _Titus Alone_, which takes place after Titus leaves
> On 2021-06-23 11:23 p.m., Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:45:17 -0600, David Johnston
>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-06-22 10:52 a.m., Robert Carnegie wrote:
>>>> Is there a word for this?
>>>
>>> Nope. A complete fictional world, that isn't science fiction and
>>> doesn't have any magic...these there just aren't enough actual examples
>>> of such thing. Now worlds that barely have magic, those are low
>>> fantasy.
>>
>> They're just fantasy -- Gormenghast, and _Swordspoint_, and the like.
>> Magic isn't required for fantasy, it's just very, very common.
>
> Didn't Gormenghast turn out to be science fiction in the sequels?
Gormenghast, he does get to some weird city with some weird cars
(three-wheeled, IIRC). If that makes it science fiction, so be it.
However, neither _Titus Groan_ nor _Gormenghast_ has anything
remotely resembling post-1800 technology, nor anything in the
least bit magical.
--
Michael F. Stemper
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
more like prunes than rhubarb does.
Quadibloc
Jun 24, 2021, 5:15:04 PM6/24/21
to
On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 2:04:06 PM UTC-6, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> Well, in _Titus Alone_, which takes place after Titus leaves
> Gormenghast, he does get to some weird city with some weird cars
> (three-wheeled, IIRC). If that makes it science fiction, so be it.
I would tend to be inclined to say that it doesn't:
> Well, in _Titus Alone_, which takes place after Titus leaves
> Gormenghast, he does get to some weird city with some weird cars
> (three-wheeled, IIRC). If that makes it science fiction, so be it.
https://www.motor1.com/features/249411/three-wheel-cars-slideshow/
...since the first car powered by the internal combustion engine had three wheels,
according to the article, only if the city had _cars_ in it made it science-fiction at
the time would it be science fiction.
John Savard
Robert Carnegie
Jun 25, 2021, 7:10:42 AM6/25/21
to
I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone has said
"secondary world" yet - Tolkien's choice of a term,
but popular for that very reason. Until now apparently? ;-)
I'm going to put it next to "fantasy world", and
"immersive fantasy", which I found in Wikipedia
next to "portal fantasy", which you visit explicitly
from Earth (usually Earth, not always), whereas
an "immersive fantasy" world, you don't.
"secondary world" yet - Tolkien's choice of a term,
but popular for that very reason. Until now apparently? ;-)
I'm going to put it next to "fantasy world", and
"immersive fantasy", which I found in Wikipedia
next to "portal fantasy", which you visit explicitly
from Earth (usually Earth, not always), whereas
an "immersive fantasy" world, you don't.
Robert Carnegie
Jun 25, 2021, 7:54:38 AM6/25/21
to
seems to really dislike secondary worlds, does anyone
know why? Ran off as a child and claimed to have
been through the looking glass, maybe? Or broke one?
Anyway, I've written my essay at Quora...
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 25, 2021, 12:55:03 PM6/25/21
to
In article <98bf07ac-a7cb-48f6...@googlegroups.com>,
Hm. I wonder where he'd put _The Interior Life._
Joy Beeson
Jun 26, 2021, 10:44:15 PM6/26/21
to
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 16:36:37 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:
> Hm. I wonder where he'd put _The Interior Life._
Clearly fantasy. The protagonist gets up-to-date on her housework.
Heydt) wrote:
> Hm. I wonder where he'd put _The Interior Life._
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 27, 2021, 12:30:03 AM6/27/21
to
In article <4dpfdgpb9vhlb6j9h...@4ax.com>,
Joy Beeson <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 16:36:37 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>> Hm. I wonder where he'd put _The Interior Life._
>
>Clearly fantasy. The protagonist gets up-to-date on her housework.
>
True. That point has been made.
>On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 16:36:37 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>> Hm. I wonder where he'd put _The Interior Life._
>
>Clearly fantasy. The protagonist gets up-to-date on her housework.
>
Chrysi Cat
Jun 27, 2021, 9:04:03 AM6/27/21
to
an Earth that clearly *DOES* share its geography with ours, but where
/events/ take a different turn.
If your choice of terms had already been in use for "completely
different geography, but entirely mundane tech" stories, "Bring the
Jubilee" wouldn't have been called an alt-history.
And no, I'm not really sure /where/ the solution to "what are these
stories, then, since all we know now is what they aren't?" is.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
J. Clarke
Jun 27, 2021, 10:44:08 AM6/27/21
to
On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 07:03:57 -0600, Chrysi Cat <chry...@gmail.com>
wrote:
If the alt takes place far enough back it is very likely to result in
altered place-names, borders, and political divisions.
wrote:
altered place-names, borders, and political divisions.
Kevrob
Jun 27, 2021, 12:01:28 PM6/27/21
to
differences of geography:
1.) Vassily Aksyonov's "The Island of Crimea," about a Hong Kong-
like polity outside the Soviet Union, facilitated by Crimea being an
island rather than a peninsula.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?1019531 (1981, Russian original)
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?20749 (1983, in English)
https://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/08/books/books-of-the-times-095866.html
B.) Harry Turtledove's "Atlantis" series.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?12048
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis_(series)
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/CCU/atlantis
"Atlantis" does have flora and fauna that might not have evolved
in our Universe's Terra, but physical laws are _supposed_ to be
the same.
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 27, 2021, 12:30:04 PM6/27/21
to
In article <db073b79-dd0f-4d81...@googlegroups.com>,
Except an island or continent in the middle of the Atlantic ought
to be growing, not sinking. Iceland, sitting on the northern end
of the Atlantic spreading zone, is heading in the direction of
growing larger even as we speak, with a rift in its southwest
spreading pyrotechnic lava: it's only a matter of time till it
reaches the sea and starts making more Iceland.
to be growing, not sinking. Iceland, sitting on the northern end
of the Atlantic spreading zone, is heading in the direction of
growing larger even as we speak, with a rift in its southwest
spreading pyrotechnic lava: it's only a matter of time till it
reaches the sea and starts making more Iceland.
Robert Woodward
Jun 27, 2021, 12:44:38 PM6/27/21
to
In article <qvDBu...@kithrup.com>,
(re: variant Earth geography)
the rest millions of years ago (for current example, if we wait a few
million years, the Gulf of California will grow much larger and Southern
California and the coast up to San Francisco will be an island). IMHO,
the rest of the North America plate should be more different than he
shows it.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
(re: variant Earth geography)
> >
> >B.) Harry Turtledove's "Atlantis" series.
> >
> >http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?12048
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis_(series)
> >
> >https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/CCU/atlantis
> >
> >"Atlantis" does have flora and fauna that might not have evolved
> >in our Universe's Terra, but physical laws are _supposed_ to be
> >the same.
> >
> Except an island or continent in the middle of the Atlantic ought
> to be growing, not sinking. Iceland, sitting on the northern end
> of the Atlantic spreading zone, is heading in the direction of
> growing larger even as we speak, with a rift in its southwest
> spreading pyrotechnic lava: it's only a matter of time till it
> reaches the sea and starts making more Iceland.
This Atlantis is part of the North America plate which had rifted off
> >B.) Harry Turtledove's "Atlantis" series.
> >
> >http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?12048
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis_(series)
> >
> >https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/CCU/atlantis
> >
> >"Atlantis" does have flora and fauna that might not have evolved
> >in our Universe's Terra, but physical laws are _supposed_ to be
> >the same.
> >
> Except an island or continent in the middle of the Atlantic ought
> to be growing, not sinking. Iceland, sitting on the northern end
> of the Atlantic spreading zone, is heading in the direction of
> growing larger even as we speak, with a rift in its southwest
> spreading pyrotechnic lava: it's only a matter of time till it
> reaches the sea and starts making more Iceland.
the rest millions of years ago (for current example, if we wait a few
million years, the Gulf of California will grow much larger and Southern
California and the coast up to San Francisco will be an island). IMHO,
the rest of the North America plate should be more different than he
shows it.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
ã-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 27, 2021, 2:40:03 PM6/27/21
to
In article <robertaw-468CF2...@news.individual.net>,
True.
The usual joke is "in a few million years Los Angeles will be
right next to San Francisco, and the San Franciscans will just
hate it."
In Albany (the one in California, on the north border of
Berkeley), where I used to live, there's a lump of earth called
Albany Hill. It's a suspect terrane, meaning once upon a time
it was an island, and the westward-creeping North American plate
picked it up. It's now on the *east* side of San Francisco Bay.
I wish I still lived in Albany. It's a small town surrounded by
larger towns, and it retains a small-town mentality. Hal and I
went to a City Council meeting once: the purpose of the meeting
was to iron out the exact language regarding goats browsing weeds
on Albany Hill and other weed-infested areas, as a fire
prevention measure. Everybody agreed that having the goats was a
good thing (much of Albany Hill is too steep to support
mechanical mowers); everybody agreed that the health and safety
of the goats should be protected. The problem was *exactly*how*
to word the ordinance. It took the Council a couple of hours
of verbal tweaking, with much input from the citizenry.
The usual joke is "in a few million years Los Angeles will be
right next to San Francisco, and the San Franciscans will just
hate it."
In Albany (the one in California, on the north border of
Berkeley), where I used to live, there's a lump of earth called
Albany Hill. It's a suspect terrane, meaning once upon a time
it was an island, and the westward-creeping North American plate
picked it up. It's now on the *east* side of San Francisco Bay.
I wish I still lived in Albany. It's a small town surrounded by
larger towns, and it retains a small-town mentality. Hal and I
went to a City Council meeting once: the purpose of the meeting
was to iron out the exact language regarding goats browsing weeds
on Albany Hill and other weed-infested areas, as a fire
prevention measure. Everybody agreed that having the goats was a
good thing (much of Albany Hill is too steep to support
mechanical mowers); everybody agreed that the health and safety
of the goats should be protected. The problem was *exactly*how*
to word the ordinance. It took the Council a couple of hours
of verbal tweaking, with much input from the citizenry.
Robert Carnegie
Jun 27, 2021, 3:28:39 PM6/27/21
to
geography" for this one.
There is the non-geologically distinct situation
in 1949 film
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport_to_Pimlico>
"inspired by an incident during the Second World War,
when the maternity ward of Ottawa Civic Hospital was
temporarily declared extraterritorial by the Canadian
government so that when Princess Juliana of the
Netherlands gave birth, the baby was born on Dutch
territory, and would not lose her right to the throne."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Margriet_of_the_Netherlands>
disagrees; what was required, and was done,
meant not that the hospital ward was made temporarily
Dutch - a surprise if anyone else was born there
concurrently - but that it was temporarily not Canada.
Michael F. Stemper
Jun 28, 2021, 12:26:22 PM6/28/21
to
On 25/06/2021 06.10, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone has said
> "secondary world" yet - Tolkien's choice of a term,
> but popular for that very reason. Until now apparently? ;-)
>
> I'm going to put it next to "fantasy world", and
> "immersive fantasy", which I found in Wikipedia
> next to "portal fantasy", which you visit explicitly
> from Earth
If I understand you correctly, the Narnia stories (except
> I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone has said
> "secondary world" yet - Tolkien's choice of a term,
> but popular for that very reason. Until now apparently? ;-)
>
> I'm going to put it next to "fantasy world", and
> "immersive fantasy", which I found in Wikipedia
> next to "portal fantasy", which you visit explicitly
> from Earth
_A Horse and His Boy_) and the original _Witch World_ fall
into this category, right?
--
Michael F. Stemper
There's no "me" in "team". There's no "us" in "team", either.
Dorothy J Heydt
Jun 28, 2021, 1:11:02 PM6/28/21
to
In article <sbct7a$l1q$2...@dont-email.me>,
adults. But there are no scenes on Earth, which the Pevensies
seem to have forgotten. (You'll recall that at the end of _Lion_
they go riding into the lampstand forest and only then begin to
remember.)
Michael F. Stemper <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 25/06/2021 06.10, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone has said
>> "secondary world" yet - Tolkien's choice of a term,
>> but popular for that very reason. Until now apparently? ;-)
>>
>> I'm going to put it next to "fantasy world", and
>> "immersive fantasy", which I found in Wikipedia
>> next to "portal fantasy", which you visit explicitly
>> from Earth
>
>If I understand you correctly, the Narnia stories (except
>_A Horse and His Boy_) and the original _Witch World_ fall
>into this category, right?
>
Well, the protagonists of _AHaHB_ do meet the Pevensie kids as
>On 25/06/2021 06.10, Robert Carnegie wrote:
>> I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone has said
>> "secondary world" yet - Tolkien's choice of a term,
>> but popular for that very reason. Until now apparently? ;-)
>>
>> I'm going to put it next to "fantasy world", and
>> "immersive fantasy", which I found in Wikipedia
>> next to "portal fantasy", which you visit explicitly
>> from Earth
>
>If I understand you correctly, the Narnia stories (except
>_A Horse and His Boy_) and the original _Witch World_ fall
>into this category, right?
>
adults. But there are no scenes on Earth, which the Pevensies
seem to have forgotten. (You'll recall that at the end of _Lion_
they go riding into the lampstand forest and only then begin to
remember.)
0 new messages