Was Heinlein Jewish
bonded...@hotmail.com
reading scifi as a kid. The name
sounds German and I always assumed
it also to be Jewish. But in rereading
some of Heinlein's early stuff and
after watching Starship Troopers, I
seem to pick up on a sort of...
militarist (I didn't say Nazi) point
of view. My question to more informed
readers: was Heinlein Jewish and if so
how to reconcile the tenor of some of
his works?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Dorothy J Heydt
<bonded...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>....: was Heinlein Jewish and if so
>how to reconcile the tenor of some of
>his works?
No, he wasn't Jewish. He was not particularly religious in any
flavor, but he mentions somewhere that his family's ancestry
was Bavarian Catholic.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
_A Point of Honor_ is out....
Dan Goodman
>reading scifi as a kid. The name
>sounds German and I always assumed
>it also to be Jewish. But in rereading
>some of Heinlein's early stuff and
>after watching Starship Troopers, I
>seem to pick up on a sort of...
>militarist (I didn't say Nazi) point
>of view. My question to more informed
>how to reconcile the tenor of some of
>his works?
1) WHAT IS INCONSISTENT ABOUT BEING JEWISH AND BEING MILITARIST? Ever
hear of a country called Israel? It has a strong military, it has Jewish
citizens who are militarists....
2) Basing your opinion of Heinlein even partially on the _movie_ allegedly
based on one of his books is ridiculous. Movies _change_ things. Almost
always.
3) I've never heard of a Jew named Heinlein -- though that doesn't mean
there aren't some. My _guess_ would be that the name was Pennsylvania
Dutch; there are Heinleins in West Virginia and Heinlens in Ohio.
However, Missouri got a lot of immigration more directly from Germany.
4) When you refer to "early work" -- I hope you've been reading his short
stories. He began his career back when the market for sf was almost
entirely a short-story market.
--
Dan Goodman
dsg...@visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
gromgorru
bonded...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<79f9n2$41b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I was always a big fan of Heinlein,
>reading scifi as a kid. The name
>sounds German and I always assumed
>it also to be Jewish. But in rereading
>some of Heinlein's early stuff and
>after watching Starship Troopers, I
>seem to pick up on a sort of...
>militarist (I didn't say Nazi) point
>of view. My question to more informed
>readers: was Heinlein Jewish and if so
>how to reconcile the tenor of some of
>his works?
>
Why don't you, and Joseph Askew, go somewhere (far far away)
and argue about that.
Lee Ann Rucker
Goodman) wrote:
>2) Basing your opinion of Heinlein even partially on the _movie_ allegedly
>based on one of his books is ridiculous. Movies _change_ things. Almost
>always.
And in this particular case, almost *completely*
--
Working at Apple for Javasoft
lru...@aruba.apple.com
Also at (but not very often) leeann...@eng.sun.com
Dan Goodman
Lee Ann Rucker <lru...@aruba.apple.com> wrote:
>In article <bRHu2.3259$NN.1...@ptah.visi.com>, dsg...@visi.com (Dan
>Goodman) wrote:
>
>>2) Basing your opinion of Heinlein even partially on the _movie_ allegedly
>>based on one of his books is ridiculous. Movies _change_ things. Almost
>>always.
>
>And in this particular case, almost *completely*
More than usual? More than _Peyton Place_ was dumbed down for television,
for example?
dok...@tiac.net
>I was always a big fan of Heinlein,
>reading scifi as a kid. The name
>sounds German and I always assumed
>it also to be Jewish. But in rereading
>some of Heinlein's early stuff and
>after watching Starship Troopers, I
>seem to pick up on a sort of...
>militarist (I didn't say Nazi) point
>of view. My question to more informed
>readers: was Heinlein Jewish and if so
>how to reconcile the tenor of some of
>his works?
Why do you equate a non-militarist stance with Judaism? There hav
been many great Jewish military thinkers from Joshua to Moshe Dayan.
Seth Deitch/ Fishmonger Studios
Alternate History? We got it!
NEW! Complete novel online.
http://www.xenolite.org
Jiz McQueen
: In article <79f9n2$41b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
: <bonded...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>seem to pick up on a sort of...
:>militarist (I didn't say Nazi) point
:>of view. My question to more informed
:>readers: was Heinlein Jewish and if so
:>how to reconcile the tenor of some of
:>his works?
: 1) WHAT IS INCONSISTENT ABOUT BEING JEWISH AND BEING MILITARIST? Ever
: hear of a country called Israel? It has a strong military, it has Jewish
: citizens who are militarists....
I think the original question is a perfectly valid one. The original
poster (sorry, I just can't quite bring myself to use a name like
bondedcourier in conversation) is asking a question which would indeed be
a very interesting one -- and presumably much debated -- if, in fact,
Heinlein had been Jewish. I think the shouting about the existence of
Israel and the military stratgems of Joshua is almost entirely irrelevant
here; the point is that it would, indeed, be a very curious juxtaposition
to find the (let's say) crypto-fascist leanings many people perceive in
Heinlein in the writings of a Jewish author _writing around and shortly
after the Holocaust_.
The question mentioned Nazism, and with good reason; leaving the
historical context out of one's response seems to be deliberately missing
the point. I don't think the original question had to do with
essentialism so much as historical and political contexts. And that
question did at least cknowledge its ignorance and was phrased politely
and respectfully -- which is more than can be said of some replies.
I agree that we probably don't want to get into the
Heinlein/fascism argument again, but I don't think that's necessary in
order to answer the question.
--
cheers,
--;-;--@ susannah };&)
========================================================================
* Susannah R Mandel * sma...@fas.harvard.edu *
************************************************************************
M w stone
> if, in fact,
>Heinlein had been Jewish.
[snip]
>it would, indeed, be a very curious juxtaposition
>to find the (let's say) crypto-fascist leanings many people perceive in
>Heinlein in the writings of a Jewish author _
>writing around and shortly
>after the Holocaust_.
It would certainly make the *silliness* of the charge a little more obvious
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
Last words of King Edward II.
"I always said that Roger Mortimer was a pain in the - - -A AARGHH!!!
John VanSickle
>
> I think the original question is a perfectly valid one. The original
> poster (sorry, I just can't quite bring myself to use a name like
> bondedcourier in conversation) is asking a question which would indeed be
> a very interesting one -- and presumably much debated -- if, in fact,
> Heinlein had been Jewish. I think the shouting about the existence of
> Israel and the military stratgems of Joshua is almost entirely irrelevant
> to find the (let's say) crypto-fascist leanings many people perceive in
> after the Holocaust_.
Heinlein attributed these perceptions of crypto-fascism to the inability
of the perceiver to correctly understand plain English. This is why the
question is invalid.
Regards,
John
--
"In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not
bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is
more than memory. Farewell!"
Dan Goodman
Jiz McQueen <sma...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>: In article <79f9n2$41b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>: <bonded...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>:>seem to pick up on a sort of...
>:>militarist (I didn't say Nazi) point
>:>of view. My question to more informed
>:>readers: was Heinlein Jewish and if so
>:>how to reconcile the tenor of some of
>:>his works?
>
>: 1) WHAT IS INCONSISTENT ABOUT BEING JEWISH AND BEING MILITARIST? Ever
>: hear of a country called Israel? It has a strong military, it has Jewish
>: citizens who are militarists....
>
>poster (sorry, I just can't quite bring myself to use a name like
>bondedcourier in conversation) is asking a question which would indeed be
>a very interesting one -- and presumably much debated -- if, in fact,
>Heinlein had been Jewish. I think the shouting about the existence of
>Israel and the military stratgems of Joshua is almost entirely irrelevant
>here; the point is that it would, indeed, be a very curious juxtaposition
>to find the (let's say) crypto-fascist leanings many people perceive in
>Heinlein in the writings of a Jewish author _writing around and shortly
>after the Holocaust_.
>historical context out of one's response seems to be deliberately missing
>the point.
We live in a world in which descendants of American slaves proudly claim
the slave-owning ancient Egyptians as relatives. In which Fundamentalists
admire the Puritans, who would have put them in the stocks if they tried
to practice their religion in public. In which politically conservative
Irish-Americans support armed Marxists in Ireland.
James Nicoll
M w stone <mws...@aol.com> wrote:
>>From: Jiz McQueen <sma...@fas.harvard.edu>
>
>> if, in fact,
>>Heinlein had been Jewish.
>>it would, indeed, be a very curious juxtaposition
>>to find the (let's say) crypto-fascist leanings many people perceive in
>>Heinlein in the writings of a Jewish author _
>>writing around and shortly
>>after the Holocaust_.
>
>
inextricably linked in the Germans varient and that the Italians
didn't persue an antisemetic policy until urged to do so by the Germans.
Is this not true? If it is ture, you could have an offshoot of Italian
style fascisism adapted by a hypothetical Jewish politician.
James Nicoll
--
March 20, 1999: Imperiums To Order's 15th Anniversary Party. Guests include
Rob Sawyer [SF author], Jo Walton [game designer and soon to be published
fantasy author] and James Gardner [SF author]. DP9 is a definite maybe.
Imperiums is at 12 Church Street, Kitchener, Ontario, Canada.
John Moreno
> Jiz McQueen <sma...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
-snip-
> > The question mentioned Nazism, and with good reason; leaving the
> >historical context out of one's response seems to be deliberately missing
> >the point.
>
> We live in a world in which descendants of American slaves proudly claim
> the slave-owning ancient Egyptians as relatives. In which Fundamentalists
> admire the Puritans, who would have put them in the stocks if they tried
> to practice their religion in public. In which politically conservative
> Irish-Americans support armed Marxists in Ireland.
How come you got to say this before I did? It doesn't seem fair (ah
well, it evens out -- you said it better).
--
John Moreno
Spence Sanders
Dan Goodman wrote in message ...
>In article <lrucker-0502...@browpo.apple.com>,
>Lee Ann Rucker <lru...@aruba.apple.com> wrote:
>>In article <bRHu2.3259$NN.1...@ptah.visi.com>, dsg...@visi.com (Dan
>>Goodman) wrote:
>>
>>>2) Basing your opinion of Heinlein even partially on the _movie_
allegedly
>>>based on one of his books is ridiculous. Movies _change_ things. Almost
>>>always.
>>
>>And in this particular case, almost *completely*
>
>More than usual? More than _Peyton Place_ was dumbed down for television,
>for example?
>
>--
have even associated the movie with Heinlein or had the Book even cross your
mind.
The movie didn't even remotely resemble the book. Here is a list of the
what was borrowed.
1) there was a war
2) character names
3) the name "Bug" to refer to the aliens.
4) Planet and city names.
SS
Spence Sanders
Jiz McQueen wrote in message <79gt0v$931$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>...
>I think the original question is a perfectly valid one
Why? What the question should have done is ask if Verhof.... (whatever) is
Jewish. HE and not Heilein is the one who has the fetish. If the movie
had been about the book the whole question wouldn't be there.
SS
Nancy Lebovitz
Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>In article <79gt0v$931$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
>Jiz McQueen <sma...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>>: In article <79f9n2$41b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>>: <bonded...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>:>seem to pick up on a sort of...
>>:>militarist (I didn't say Nazi) point
>>:>of view. My question to more informed
>>:>readers: was Heinlein Jewish and if so
>>:>how to reconcile the tenor of some of
>>:>his works?
>>
sf? Does anyone here know anything about Israeli sf?
>>: 1) WHAT IS INCONSISTENT ABOUT BEING JEWISH AND BEING MILITARIST? Ever
>>: hear of a country called Israel? It has a strong military, it has Jewish
>>: citizens who are militarists....
>>
>>I think the original question is a perfectly valid one. The original
>>poster (sorry, I just can't quite bring myself to use a name like
>>bondedcourier in conversation) is asking a question which would indeed be
>>a very interesting one -- and presumably much debated -- if, in fact,
>>Heinlein had been Jewish. I think the shouting about the existence of
>>Israel and the military stratgems of Joshua is almost entirely irrelevant
>>here; the point is that it would, indeed, be a very curious juxtaposition
>>to find the (let's say) crypto-fascist leanings many people perceive in
>>Heinlein in the writings of a Jewish author _writing around and shortly
>>after the Holocaust_.
>> The question mentioned Nazism, and with good reason; leaving the
>>historical context out of one's response seems to be deliberately missing
>>the point.
>
>We live in a world in which descendants of American slaves proudly claim
>the slave-owning ancient Egyptians as relatives. In which Fundamentalists
>admire the Puritans, who would have put them in the stocks if they tried
>to practice their religion in public. In which politically conservative
>Irish-Americans support armed Marxists in Ireland.
>
Excellent point....but don't forget the Russian skinheads.
Dan Goodman
James Nicoll <jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>In article <19990206064537...@ng02.aol.com>,
>M w stone <mws...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>From: Jiz McQueen <sma...@fas.harvard.edu>
>>
>>>Heinlein had been Jewish.
>>>it would, indeed, be a very curious juxtaposition
>>>to find the (let's say) crypto-fascist leanings many people perceive in
>>>Heinlein in the writings of a Jewish author _
>>>writing around and shortly
>>>after the Holocaust_.
>>
>>
> It's my impression that antisemitism and fascism are only
>inextricably linked in the Germans varient and that the Italians
>didn't persue an antisemetic policy until urged to do so by the Germans.
>Is this not true? If it is ture, you could have an offshoot of Italian
>style fascisism adapted by a hypothetical Jewish politician.
Indeed, Oswald Mosley's movement in England had Jewish members at the
beginning.
I've read that Mussolini's mistress was Jewish; I don't know how accurate
this is.
Dan Goodman
Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix3.netaxs.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Just for the hell of it.....are there any Jewish authors writing military
>sf? Does anyone here know anything about Israeli sf?
Joel Rosenberg has written military science fiction; and some of his
fantasy has a strong military element.
Jo Walton
na...@unix3.netaxs.com "Nancy Lebovitz" writes:
> Just for the hell of it.....are there any Jewish authors writing military
> sf?
Harry Turtledove? I'd say a fair bit of his work qualifies as "military
sf" or "military fantasy".
Joel Rosenberg?
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
First NorAm Public Appearance: Imperiums to Order, Kitchener, March 20th
Freshly UPDATED web-page http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Interstichia;
RASFW FAQ, Reviews, Fanzine, Momentum Guidelines, Blood of Kings Poetry
Dorothy J Heydt
>Just for the hell of it.....are there any Jewish authors writing military
>sf?
(waves hand frantically in air) I know! I know, ma'am, I know that one!
Harry Turtledove.
Very Jewish (I particularly like the Hannukah story he wrote for
_A Christmas Bestiary_) and a major outputter of military sf.
And as I've already posted, Heinlein was *not* Jewish.
John Moreno
> Nancy Lebovitz <na...@unix3.netaxs.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >Just for the hell of it.....are there any Jewish authors writing military
> >sf? Does anyone here know anything about Israeli sf?
>
> Joel Rosenberg has written military science fiction; and some of his
> fantasy has a strong military element.
Some of it even has a strong Jewish military element.
> --
> Dan Goodman
> dsg...@visi.com
> http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
> Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
--
John Moreno
(Newsreaders recognize the signature by looking for the sigdash line
The sigdash is dash dash space *exactly* [see example above]).
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
(snip)
> No, he wasn't Jewish. He was not particularly religious in any
> flavor, but he mentions somewhere that his family's ancestry
> was Bavarian Catholic.
However, lest someone get the idea (yet again!) that RAH was Catholic, he was
nominally a Methodist. There are various places in his fiction which suggest
this "vanilla-flavored midwest Protestant" background, but the only place I
can think of where it's explicit is someplace in _Tramp Royale_.
Note that I said "nominally". He was a Methodist in about the same sense that
Tom Paine was a Quaker...
Thought I'd better stick this one in, Dorothy, just to try (probably futilely)
to head off another red herring. (Hey, George mixes cowboy metaphors with
fishing!)
George, in chilly Southeast Alaska
Dorothy J Heydt
>However, lest someone get the idea (yet again!) that RAH was Catholic, he was
>nominally a Methodist. There are various places in his fiction which suggest
>this "vanilla-flavored midwest Protestant" background, but the only place I
>can think of where it's explicit is someplace in _Tramp Royale_.
Hokay, that's extra detail: ancestry Catholic, nominally Methodist,
in practice nothing-in-particular, I suspect.
Nancy Lebovitz
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <79i8t6$2...@netaxs.com>
> na...@unix3.netaxs.com "Nancy Lebovitz" writes:
>
>> sf?
>
>sf" or "military fantasy".
>
>Joel Rosenberg?
>
and I don't read a lot of military sf, I really didn't know.
pa...@webnexus.com
wrote:
> Just for the hell of it.....are there any Jewish authors writing military
Is Susan Shwartz Jewish? If so, I would think some of her stories may
qualify has military sf or fantasy.
Would anything by Jane Yolen be considered military sf?
Sam Paik
--
The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970's and 1980's
hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of
any crash programs embarked upon now.
- Paul Ehrlich in the beginning of his 1968 ``The Population Bomb''
Alan Gore
>I was always a big fan of Heinlein,
>reading scifi as a kid. The name
>sounds German and I always assumed
>it also to be Jewish. But in rereading
His ancestry was "Pennsylvania Dutch" (German).
ag...@primenet.com | "Giving money and power to the government
Alan Gore | is like giving whiskey and car keys
Software For PC's | to teenaged boys" - P. J. O'Rourke
http://www.alangore.com
Dorothy J Heydt
Are you sure about the "Pennsylvania" part? Or do you mean
simply "a colloquial term for German" He said somewhere his
ancestors were Bavarians.
Joseph Askew
91831642...@watserv5.uwate
rloo.ca>,
jam...@ece.uwaterloo.ca (James
Nicoll) wrote:
> It's my impression that antisemitism and fascism are only
> inextricably linked in the Germans varient and that the Italians
> didn't persue an antisemetic policy until urged to do so by the Germans.
> Is this not true? If it is ture, you could have an offshoot of Italian
> style fascisism adapted by a hypothetical Jewish politician.
Some important Italian fascists
were in fact Jewish. And Mussolini
could say with some honesty that
some of his best friends were
Jewish. The leading ideologue of the
Italian Fascist movement was in
fact Jewish. And Mussolini certainly
had Jewish admirers. But not many.
Joseph
MattH...@my-dejanews.com
djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
> No, he wasn't Jewish.
What is being Jewish? I thought theoretically, anyone who could count
Abraham among his/her ancestors was Jewish. Considering one only need
go back 1,000 years for the count of a generation of one's ancestors
to exceeded the population of the Earth, just about everyone could be
Jewish.
--
Matt Hickman
I believe very strongly in freedom of religion--but I think that that
freedom is best expressed as the freedom to keep quiet.
Robert A. Heinlein (1907 - 1988)
"If This Goes On--" ASF c.1940
Samael
Nancy Lebovitz wrote in message <79mq7v$n...@netaxs.com>...
>In article <36bed...@192.168.0.20>, Samael <Sam...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>
>>I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism. He makes
>>several references to esbats, defends witchcraft against the 'thpu shalt
not
>>suffer a witch to live' bible quote and has witches in at least a couple
of
>>works.
>>
>>Anyonme got any hard data?
>>
>Just impressions, I fear. I think he got what he knew about Wicca by
>talking with someone or reading a book. I can't put a finger on it
>(except for a bit where he implies that all Wicca/paganism/whatever
>is still in hiding), but it seems as though he got the jargon down without
>getting a feel for the religion.
>
I occasionally felt that he was trying to talk about it without giving very
much away.
He didn't contradict any of my knowledge, but it never quite seemed to ring
true.
Samael
Dorothy J Heydt
>
>I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism.
Keep in mind that through most of his life there wasn't any.
(Don't tell me it'd been handed down through the generations,
'cause I don't believe it. Doesn't matter anyway. *No*body was
"practicing Wicca" and calling it that.)
>several references to esbats, defends witchcraft against the 'thou shalt not
>suffer a witch to live' bible quote and has witches in at least a couple of
>works.
That's the sort of thing anybody could have read anywhere. Let's
keep in mind that what Heinlein was, was, he was an engineer. I
don't think he had much truck with the supernatural in any form,
except to provide the basis for an occasional piece of fantasy
fiction.
He did write a squib for a series called "This I Believe,"
wherein he indicated that he believed mostly in the United States
of America and the people he knew. (It's in _Grumbles from the
Grave._)
Dan Goodman
Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:36:27 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <79knqa$t2o$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
>>Alan Gore <ag...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>His ancestry was "Pennsylvania Dutch" (German).
>>
>>Are you sure about the "Pennsylvania" part? Or do you mean
>>simply "a colloquial term for German" He said somewhere his
>>ancestors were Bavarians.
>
>
>Or at least their ancestors did.
I believe the Pennsylvania Dutch version of German is closest to the Swiss
dialects.
And some of their ancestors came from the Netherlands.
Dan Goodman
Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <36be89e3...@news.clark.net>,
>Lawrence Watt-Evans <lawr...@clark.net> wrote:
>>>Are you sure about the "Pennsylvania" part? Or do you mean
>>>simply "a colloquial term for German" He said somewhere his
>>>ancestors were Bavarians.
>>
>>Most Pennsylvania Dutch came from either Hesse or Bavaria, I believe.
>>Or at least their ancestors did.
>
>
>Now, does anybody know if the Heinleins lived a while in
>Pennsylvania before moving to Missouri?
Circumstancial evidence: there are Heinleins in West Virginia.
Movement into the South from Pennsylvania was mostly first into West
Virginia. (Oversimplification.)
Samael
pricer...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<79j2tg$3jq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <F6p09...@kithrup.com>,
>> No, he wasn't Jewish. He was not particularly religious in any
>> flavor, but he mentions somewhere that his family's ancestry
>> was Bavarian Catholic.
>
was
>nominally a Methodist. There are various places in his fiction which
suggest
>this "vanilla-flavored midwest Protestant" background, but the only place I
>can think of where it's explicit is someplace in _Tramp Royale_.
>
that
>Tom Paine was a Quaker...
I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism. He makes
several references to esbats, defends witchcraft against the 'thpu shalt not
suffer a witch to live' bible quote and has witches in at least a couple of
works.
Anyonme got any hard data?
Samael
Nancy Lebovitz
>several references to esbats, defends witchcraft against the 'thpu shalt not
>suffer a witch to live' bible quote and has witches in at least a couple of
>works.
>
>Anyonme got any hard data?
>
talking with someone or reading a book. I can't put a finger on it
(except for a bit where he implies that all Wicca/paganism/whatever
is still in hiding), but it seems as though he got the jargon down without
getting a feel for the religion.
The Rosemary Edgehill books about Bast (murder mysteries set in the
New York neo-pagan community)--_Speak Daggers to Her_, _The Bowl of
Night_, and a third one who's name escapes me give, imho, more of
an insider's view. So does _In the Land of Winter_ by Richard Grant.
dutchcub
>On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:36:27 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>wrote:
>>In article <79knqa$t2o$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
>>Alan Gore <ag...@primenet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>His ancestry was "Pennsylvania Dutch" (German).
>>
>>Are you sure about the "Pennsylvania" part? Or do you mean
>>simply "a colloquial term for German" He said somewhere his
>>ancestors were Bavarians.
>Most Pennsylvania Dutch came from either Hesse or Bavaria, I believe.
>Or at least their ancestors did.
So why were they called 'Dutch'?
DutchCub
Andrew Plotkin
Corruption of "Pennsylvania Deutsch", of course.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
dutchcub
>In article <36bed...@192.168.0.20>, Samael <Sam...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>
>>I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism.
>Keep in mind that through most of his life there wasn't any.
>(Don't tell me it'd been handed down through the generations,
>'cause I don't believe it. Doesn't matter anyway. *No*body was
>"practicing Wicca" and calling it that.)
>>several references to esbats, defends witchcraft against the 'thou shalt not
>>suffer a witch to live' bible quote and has witches in at least a couple of
>>works.
>That's the sort of thing anybody could have read anywhere. Let's
>keep in mind that what Heinlein was, was, he was an engineer. I
>don't think he had much truck with the supernatural in any form,
>except to provide the basis for an occasional piece of fantasy
>fiction.
Oh sure, just lump all engineers together again, why don't we. Isn't
this statement just a teensy bit prejudiced?
Hell, I'm an engineer and I have truck with the supernatural in
several forms.
I also know engineers with supernatural trucks, so there.
DutchCub
Danny Sichel
> >>>His ancestry was "Pennsylvania Dutch" (German).
> >>Are you sure about the "Pennsylvania" part? Or do you mean
> >>simply "a colloquial term for German" He said somewhere his
> >>ancestors were Bavarians.
> >Most Pennsylvania Dutch came from either Hesse or Bavaria, I believe.
> >Or at least their ancestors did.
> So why were they called 'Dutch'?
"Dutch" -> "Deutsch".
PMccutc103
>Thanks. Since I don't keep careful track of which authors are Jewish
>and I don't read a lot of military sf, I really didn't know.
I was going to say something along these lines. I can't imagine actually
caring whether a particular author is Jewish.
--
Pete McCutchen
Dan Goodman
>lawr...@clark.net (Lawrence Watt-Evans) writes:
>>On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:36:27 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
>>wrote:
>
>>>In article <79knqa$t2o$1...@nnrp02.primenet.com>,
Because in English, the term "Dutch" used to mean _both_ German _and_
Netherlandish.
Note, also, that the two languages had terms _for their speakers_ which
were 1) rather alike, and 2) cognates of the English word "Dutch". (And
also of the Italian "Tedesco".)
Vicki Rosenzweig
>In article <F6p09...@kithrup.com>,
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>
>> No, he wasn't Jewish.
>
>What is being Jewish? I thought theoretically, anyone who could count
>Abraham among his/her ancestors was Jewish. Considering one only need
>go back 1,000 years for the count of a generation of one's ancestors
>to exceeded the population of the Earth, just about everyone could be
>Jewish.
No. The definition you're groping for is that anyone whose mother
is Jewish is Jewish. Male-line ancestry is irrelevant here.
So you aren't counting all of a person's ancestor's, only one per
generation: the mother's mother's mothers's....mother back to the
time of Abraham.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
v...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/
"with penguins and justice for all" -- Mary Kay Kare
PMccutc103
> It's my impression that antisemitism and fascism are only
>inextricably linked in the Germans varient and that the Italians
>didn't persue an antisemetic policy until urged to do so by the Germans.
>Is this not true? If it is ture, you could have an offshoot of Italian
>style fascisism adapted by a hypothetical Jewish politician.
>
>
Well, part of the argument on the other Heinlein/_Starship Troopers_ thread is
about the degree to which matters of racial identity and the like are essential
to fascism. It was always my impression that the political and economic theory
need not have been linked to the weird racial theories, and that there was
nothing intrinsically anti-semitic about the political and economic theory.
Not that it was a good theory, mind you, but it need not have been antisemitic.
--
Pete McCutchen
Dorothy J Heydt
>>simply "a colloquial term for German" He said somewhere his
>>ancestors were Bavarians.
>
>Most Pennsylvania Dutch came from either Hesse or Bavaria, I believe.
>Or at least their ancestors did.
Okay, that's yet more information.
Now, does anybody know if the Heinleins lived a while in
Pennsylvania before moving to Missouri?
Dorothy J. Heydt
Nancy Lebovitz
Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@interport.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:15:48 GMT, MattH...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
>>In article <F6p09...@kithrup.com>,
>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>>
>>> No, he wasn't Jewish.
>>
>>What is being Jewish? I thought theoretically, anyone who could count
>>Abraham among his/her ancestors was Jewish. Considering one only need
>>go back 1,000 years for the count of a generation of one's ancestors
>>to exceeded the population of the Earth, just about everyone could be
>>Jewish.
>
>No. The definition you're groping for is that anyone whose mother
>is Jewish is Jewish. Male-line ancestry is irrelevant here.
>
>So you aren't counting all of a person's ancestor's, only one per
>generation: the mother's mother's mothers's....mother back to the
>time of Abraham.
Note that Judaism accepts converts--this increases the chance that
someone is Jewish by ancestry, but probably not by much.
Alan Gore
>>Or at least their ancestors did.
>So why were they called 'Dutch'?
The term was Pennsylvania farmers' misunderstanding of "deutsch".
gromgorru
PMccutc103 wrote in message
<19990208125727...@ng-ba1.aol.com>...
Have you read Turtledove's
_In the presence of my enemy_?
Morgan E. Smith
On 8 Feb 1999, PMccutc103 wrote:
> na...@unix3.netaxs.com (Nancy Lebovitz) wrote:
>
>
>
> >Thanks. Since I don't keep careful track of which authors are Jewish
> >and I don't read a lot of military sf, I really didn't know.
>
>
> I was going to say something along these lines. I can't imagine actually
> caring whether a particular author is Jewish.
Yeah, I can't even work up an interest in the author's gender, mostly. I
don't care if Elizabeth Moon is a purple three toed sloth, and it makes no
never mind to me if I'm told that Dorothy Heydt is in reality not the
friendly Mommy she always portrays here: if I found out she was really a
pistol-packin' bankrobber currently in San Quentin doing a life-sentence,
I still wouldn't care. I want good books, well-written books, books that
make me feel glad I know how to read, and that's all I want out of an
author.
But apparently, I'm in a minority on this....
Morgan Smith
(sorry, Dorothy, for taking your name in vain. I was looking for a real
contrast, that's all. Of course, if you really ARE a bankrobber...I guess
I apologize for blowing your cover.)
Rich Horton
wrote:
>dutchcub wrote:
>
>> >>>His ancestry was "Pennsylvania Dutch" (German).
>
>> >>Are you sure about the "Pennsylvania" part? Or do you mean
>> >>simply "a colloquial term for German" He said somewhere his
>> >>ancestors were Bavarians.
>
>> >Most Pennsylvania Dutch came from either Hesse or Bavaria, I believe.
>
>> >Or at least their ancestors did.
>
>> So why were they called 'Dutch'?
>
>"Dutch" -> "Deutsch".
As in the term "Scrubby Dutch", used in St. Louis for the
German-descended residents of the South Side, famous for obssessive
cleanliness (daily mopping of the front porch and steps being the
oft-cited example).
Lee Ann Rucker
wrote:
>(waves hand frantically in air) I know! I know, ma'am, I know that one!
There's always one of these in every class ;-)
--
Working at Apple for Javasoft
lru...@aruba.apple.com
Also at (but not very often) leeann...@eng.sun.com
Avram Grumer
> I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism.
> He makes several references to esbats, defends witchcraft
> against the 'thpu shalt not suffer a witch to live' bible
> quote and has witches in at least a couple of works.
>
> Anyonme got any hard data?
Do you have access to a copy of _Expanded Universe_? The last essay in
the book is called "The Happy Days Ahead," and most of it consists of
Heinlein talking about why he thinks the US is on a long decline. In one
section of it, "The Age of Unreason" (starting on page 545 of my copy of
the 1983 Ace paperback) he complains about "the anti-intellectual and
anti-science ground swell in this country." One of the items he lists as
evidence the decline of the American intellect is "the return of
witchcraft."
--
Avram Grumer | av...@bigfoot.com | http://www.bigfoot.com/~avram/
If music be the food of love, then some of it be the Twinkies of
dysfunctional relationships.
Morgan E. Smith
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <79nt0q$l...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>,
> Morgan E. Smith <mes...@calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> >.... and it makes no
> >never mind to me if I'm told that Dorothy Heydt is in reality not the
> >friendly Mommy she always portrays here: if I found out she was really a
> >pistol-packin' bankrobber currently in San Quentin doing a life-sentence,
> >I still wouldn't care.
>
> I come across as a friendly Mommy?
Well, I was going for hyperbole. But you do come across as having a lot
of life-experience, and you're full of useful advice (like polite versions
of "Shut up, go to bed, no you cannot have another drink of water" for
people like Jay and me who go tootling off the deep end at the drop of a
faucet-washer) so "Mommy" was my first best shot.
But, hey, I'm flexible. I will henceforth describe you as the Goddess of
the Ether, if you feel that's more dignified. :-)
>
> Sheesh.
>
> Oh, hecko, there are worse things.
>
> >(sorry, Dorothy, for taking your name in vain. I was looking for a real
> >contrast, that's all. Of course, if you really ARE a bankrobber...I guess
> >I apologize for blowing your cover.)
>
> Not last time I noticed... but my husband just looked over my
> shoulder and made a remark about a pixel-packin' Mama.
>
Say, that's pretty good. I think I amy steal that.
Morgan Smith
Eli Bishop
Avram Grumer wrote:
>
> In article <36bed...@192.168.0.20>, "Samael" <Sam...@dial.pipex.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism.
> > He makes several references to esbats, defends witchcraft
> > against the 'thpu shalt not suffer a witch to live' bible
> > quote and has witches in at least a couple of works.
> >
> > Anyonme got any hard data?
>
> Do you have access to a copy of _Expanded Universe_? The last essay
> in the book is called "The Happy Days Ahead," and most of it consists
> of Heinlein talking about why he thinks the US is on a long decline.
> In one section of it, "The Age of Unreason" (starting on page 545 of
> my copy of the 1983 Ace paperback) he complains about "the
> anti-intellectual and anti-science ground swell in this country." One
> of the items he lists as evidence the decline of the American
> intellect is "the return of witchcraft."
A possible source of confusion here is the existence of the neo-pagan
Church of All Worlds, which borrows elements of _Stranger in a Strange
Land_ -- water-sharing, the phrase "thou art God" and I'm not sure what
else (not cannibalism). IIRC the original founders of CAW were
agnostics and SF fans who were annoyed that their college required them
to list a religious denomination, and started their own church as a
protest. The church now has a lot of overlap with other neo-pagan and
Wiccan groups. I'm pretty sure Heinlein was aware of it, but I can't
remember if his reaction was horror or amusement or something else. He
may have had some sympathy for their nonconformism and their view of
religion as a construct to be tinkered with to meet people's needs, but
probably not for the rest of it. You can read about them at
http://www.caw.org. This is NOT an endorsement, by the way.
As far as "witches," if you mean things like "Magic, Inc.", I think
that's an example of Heinlein having a good time -- specifically,
playing with the idea "what if magic were a form of science" (without
having to believe it) and then applying his SF process to that.
--
Eli Bishop / www.concentric.net/~Elib
"I been tryin' to put a chicken in the window,
to chase away the wolf from the door" - John Prine
Dan Goodman
Alan Gore <ag...@primenet.com> wrote:
>dutchcub <dutc...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>>>Or at least their ancestors did.
>
>>So why were they called 'Dutch'?
>
Actually, more likely their proper understanding. While "Dutch" is no
longer a correct translations of "deutsch," I believe it used to be.
Ironically, the Netherlandish cognate of Dutch, deutsch, and tedesco has
gone out of use.
Dorothy J Heydt
Morgan E. Smith <mes...@calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>.... and it makes no
>never mind to me if I'm told that Dorothy Heydt is in reality not the
>friendly Mommy she always portrays here: if I found out she was really a
>pistol-packin' bankrobber currently in San Quentin doing a life-sentence,
>I still wouldn't care.
I come across as a friendly Mommy?
Sheesh.
Oh, hecko, there are worse things.
>(sorry, Dorothy, for taking your name in vain. I was looking for a real
>contrast, that's all. Of course, if you really ARE a bankrobber...I guess
>I apologize for blowing your cover.)
Not last time I noticed... but my husband just looked over my
shoulder and made a remark about a pixel-packin' Mama.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Dorothy J Heydt
Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>
>Note, also, that the two languages had terms _for their speakers_ which
>were 1) rather alike, and 2) cognates of the English word "Dutch". (And
>also of the Italian "Tedesco".)
The original, I found out a few months ago, is Frankish _theodisc,_
"people talk."
Dan Goodman
>Dan Goodman <dsg...@visi.com> wrote:
>>
>>Note, also, that the two languages had terms _for their speakers_ which
>>were 1) rather alike, and 2) cognates of the English word "Dutch". (And
>>also of the Italian "Tedesco".)
>
>The original, I found out a few months ago, is Frankish _theodisc,_
>"people talk."
Thanks.
I was amused to find out that folk/volk is apparently of non-Indo-European
origin, and thus not really suitable for "pure Aryans".
Gary Farber
: In article <79nt0q$l...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>,
: Morgan E. Smith <mes...@calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
:>
:>.... and it makes no
:>never mind to me if I'm told that Dorothy Heydt is in reality not the
:>friendly Mommy she always portrays here: if I found out she was really a
:>pistol-packin' bankrobber currently in San Quentin doing a life-sentence,
:>I still wouldn't care.
: I come across as a friendly Mommy?
No.
[. . . .]
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US
Wayne Throop
: [] my husband just looked over my
: shoulder and made a remark about a pixel-packin' Mama.
Have bitstream. Will dither.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Jay Random
>
> A possible source of confusion here is the existence of the neo-pagan
> Church of All Worlds, which borrows elements of _Stranger in a Strange
> Land_ -- water-sharing, the phrase "thou art God" and I'm not sure what
> else (not cannibalism). IIRC the original founders of CAW were
> agnostics and SF fans who were annoyed that their college required them
> to list a religious denomination, and started their own church as a
> protest. The church now has a lot of overlap with other neo-pagan and
> Wiccan groups. I'm pretty sure Heinlein was aware of it, but I can't
> remember if his reaction was horror or amusement or something else. He
> may have had some sympathy for their nonconformism and their view of
> religion as a construct to be tinkered with to meet people's needs, but
> probably not for the rest of it. You can read about them at
> http://www.caw.org. This is NOT an endorsement, by the way.
_Grumbles From The Grave_ & other sources combine to give the strong
impression that he was frustrated & rather appalled at the bozosity with which
the CAW took his paean to freethinking & turned it into a cultish BOOK OF
TRVTH. His utterances on the subject rather remind me of _The Life Of Brian_.
To summarize in Brianesque style:
HEINLEIN: Think for yourselves!
CHURCH OF ALL WORLDS: Yes, master! Tell us what we should think for ourselves!
HEINLEIN: Oh, for Pete's sake.
(HEINLEIN slaps forehead & wanders off into the middle distance.)
Jay Random
>
> No. The definition you're groping for is that anyone whose mother
> is Jewish is Jewish. Male-line ancestry is irrelevant here.
>
> So you aren't counting all of a person's ancestor's, only one per
> generation: the mother's mother's mothers's....mother back to the
> time of Abraham.
Not back to the time of Abraham. Isaac was not the daughter of Abraham, &
Jacob was not the daughter of Isaac.
Samael
Eli Bishop wrote in message <36BFBF4C...@tempest.com>...
>
>Avram Grumer wrote:
>>
>> In article <36bed...@192.168.0.20>, "Samael" <Sam...@dial.pipex.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism.
>> > He makes several references to esbats, defends witchcraft
>> > against the 'thpu shalt not suffer a witch to live' bible
>> > quote and has witches in at least a couple of works.
>> >
>> > Anyonme got any hard data?
>Church of All Worlds, which borrows elements of _Stranger in a Strange
>Land_ -- water-sharing, the phrase "thou art God" and I'm not sure what
>else (not cannibalism). IIRC the original founders of CAW were
>agnostics and SF fans who were annoyed that their college required them
>to list a religious denomination, and started their own church as a
>protest. The church now has a lot of overlap with other neo-pagan and
>Wiccan groups. I'm pretty sure Heinlein was aware of it, but I can't
>remember if his reaction was horror or amusement or something else. He
>may have had some sympathy for their nonconformism and their view of
>religion as a construct to be tinkered with to meet people's needs, but
>probably not for the rest of it. You can read about them at
>http://www.caw.org. This is NOT an endorsement, by the way.
>
>that's an example of Heinlein having a good time -- specifically,
>playing with the idea "what if magic were a form of science" (without
>having to believe it) and then applying his SF process to that.
I mean in "Job", where he goes out of his way to attack the Christian
standpoint on witches.
And in "To Sail..." where the main character ends up at an esbat (for about
one paragraph).
There's also a mention somewhere else, but I can't remember where :-<
Samael
Thomas
dutchcub wrote:
> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>
> >In article <36bed...@192.168.0.20>, Samael <Sam...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism.
>
> >Keep in mind that through most of his life there wasn't any.
>
> >(Don't tell me it'd been handed down through the generations,
> >'cause I don't believe it. Doesn't matter anyway. *No*body was
> >"practicing Wicca" and calling it that.)
>
> >>several references to esbats, defends witchcraft against the 'thou shalt not
> >>suffer a witch to live' bible quote and has witches in at least a couple of
> >>works.
>
> >That's the sort of thing anybody could have read anywhere. Let's
> >keep in mind that what Heinlein was, was, he was an engineer. I
> >don't think he had much truck with the supernatural in any form,
> >except to provide the basis for an occasional piece of fantasy
> >fiction.
>
> Oh sure, just lump all engineers together again, why don't we. Isn't
> this statement just a teensy bit prejudiced?
> Hell, I'm an engineer and I have truck with the supernatural in
> several forms.
> I also know engineers with supernatural trucks, so there.
I´ve got a supernatual bike does that count ?
Thomas, only an engineering student.... Can´t afford no truck :-)
Dorothy J Heydt
Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <F6v3I...@kithrup.com> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>: I come across as a friendly Mommy?
>
>No.
Whew.
Mark-Jason Dominus
>_Grumbles From The Grave_ & other sources combine to give the strong
>impression that he was frustrated & rather appalled at the bozosity
>turned it into a cultish BOOK OF TRVTH. His utterances on the subject
>rather remind me of _The Life Of Brian_.
I think something of the same thing happened to Ivan Stang, inventor
of the satiric Church of the SubGenius. It was a funny joke, and then
for a lot of people it became a REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT joke that they
took VERY SERIOUSLY, and they pestered Stang to death about it.
I've sometimes wondered why that never seems to happen to the
Discordians, and the conclusion I've come to is that unlike _The Book
of the SubGenius_ or _Stranger in a Strange Land_, the _Principia
Discordia_ is an extremely short book. There's hardly anything in
there at all, so if you want to be a Discordian, you're obviously not
going to be able to do it by following the book.
On the other hand, it might just be that the authors of the Principia
are nearly anonymous.
J. Brad Hicks
>Eli Bishop wrote in message <36BFBF4C...@tempest.com>...
>>
>>Avram Grumer wrote:
>>>
>>> In article <36bed...@192.168.0.20>, "Samael" <Sam...@dial.pipex.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism.
>>> > He makes several references to esbats, defends witchcraft
>>> > against the 'thpu shalt not suffer a witch to live' bible
>>> > quote and has witches in at least a couple of works.
>>> >
>>> > Anyonme got any hard data?
>>A possible source of confusion here is the existence of the neo-pagan
>>Church of All Worlds, which borrows elements of _Stranger in a Strange
>>Land_ -- water-sharing, the phrase "thou art God" and I'm not sure what
>>else (not cannibalism). IIRC
You don't.
>>the original founders of CAW were
>>agnostics and SF fans who were annoyed that their college required them
>>to list a religious denomination, and started their own church as a
>>protest.
That wasn't the CAW, that was the RDNA, the Reformed Druids of North
America (which more-or-less no longer exists, but is ancestral to groups
that do still exist).
The CAW started when a guy named Tim Zell, having failed to found a new
religion around the idea of environmentalism ("Ferafaria," I think, though
I'm too lazy to look up the correct spelling) read Heinlein and decided to
borrow some of the details of its' fictional Church of All Worlds,
including the name, for his next attempt. That group, through it's
then-APA, "Green Egg," for all practical purposes founded the modern
religion of Neopaganism, including Neopagan Witchcraft.
>I mean in "Job", where he goes out of his way to attack the Christian
>standpoint on witches.
>
>And in "To Sail..." where the main character ends up at an esbat (for about
>one paragraph).
>
>There's also a mention somewhere else, but I can't remember where :-<
I remember a throw-away line somewhere, it might have been in _I Will Fear
No Evil_, where the narrator says that it's not hard to find an esbat in
any major city "if you know the Word."
I've heard speculation that Heinlein was, or at least at one time had
been, a Witch. But when I compare his descriptions of Witchcraft with what
little I know about witchcraft in America circa 1950-1965, I see enough
discrepancies and differences that I think he's basing it on folkloric
sources, not personal experience.
But of course, fen have always speculated about Heinlein's personal life,
and gossiped about what little they did know -- which is why, for the most
part, Heinlein would have nothing to do with SF fandom.
--
J. Brad Hicks
U.S. Shamanics & Mechanical Zen
mailto:in...@us-shamanics.com
http://www.us-shamanics.com
Mike Schilling
John and Ringo are Jewish. Paul and George are goyish.
Mays is Jewish. Mantle was goyish.
Kennedy was Jewish. Nixon is goyish.
Nancy Reagan is the most goyish person who ever lived. (Though,
paradoxically, without really being a shiksa.)
Now that we have our terms defined, was Heinlein Jewish?
(My answer: less than Asimov, but more than Clarke. Way less than Gold,
somewhat less than Boucher, but more than Campbell. A bit less than
Niven, but way more than Pournelle.)
Geoff D
Thomas <iced...@kampsax.dtu.dk> wrote:
>
> I扉e got a supernatual bike does that count ?
> Thomas, only an engineering student.... Can愒 afford no truck :-)
>
>
"Can't afford no truck" That's a double negative. Does that mean you can
afford a truck? :) Typical engineer, all math and no english. Me calling
the kettle black :)
Geoff D
There is no "I" in TEAM...However, there is an "I" in Intelligent
Independent Individual.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Terry Riopka
Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@interport.net> wrote:
>
>No. The definition you're groping for is that anyone whose mother
>is Jewish is Jewish. Male-line ancestry is irrelevant here.
>
in the past.
--
*.............*.............*.............*..............*..............*
So what IS this quintessence of dust?
.......*.............*.............*..............*..............*.......
Terry P. Riopka The George Washington University
dutchcub
>dutchcub wrote:
>I've got a supernatual bike does that count ?
>Thomas, only an engineering student.... Can't afford no truck :-)
Yes, I do rather think that counts. You see, Mommy Heydt, even engineering
*students* have truck with the supernatural in a form (to wit,
bike-shaped).
As to not being able to afford a supernatural truck, don't worry. You're
not named after any Greek philosophers, anyway.
DutchCub
Dan Goodman
>In rec.arts.sf.written you write:
>
>>In article dutchcub <dutc...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>So why were they called 'Dutch'?
>
>>Because in English, the term "Dutch" used to mean _both_ German _and_
>>Netherlandish.
>
>>Note, also, that the two languages had terms _for their speakers_ which
>>were 1) rather alike, and 2) cognates of the English word "Dutch". (And
>>also of the Italian "Tedesco".)
>
>Do you happen to know what those terms actually were as well? I'm rather
>interested in this kind of obscure etymologies.
I'll have to look up the Netherlandish one. The German one (already
given in this thread) is deutsch.
>And what does "Tedesco" mean?
It means "German"
JBassior
sf? << Nancy Lebovitz
I'm Jewish, and I've written some military SF. Hasn't been published, though.
Sincerely Yours,
Jordan
Chris Byler
wrote:
>
>Nancy Lebovitz wrote in message <79mq7v$n...@netaxs.com>...
>>In article <36bed...@192.168.0.20>, Samael <Sam...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>I have always wondered about his association with Wiccanism. He makes
>>>several references to esbats, defends witchcraft against the 'thpu shalt
>not
>>>suffer a witch to live' bible quote and has witches in at least a couple
>of
>>>works.
>>>
>>>Anyonme got any hard data?
>>>
>>Just impressions, I fear. I think he got what he knew about Wicca by
>>talking with someone or reading a book. I can't put a finger on it
>>(except for a bit where he implies that all Wicca/paganism/whatever
>>is still in hiding), but it seems as though he got the jargon down without
>>getting a feel for the religion.
>>
>
>I occasionally felt that he was trying to talk about it without giving very
>much away.
I think it's more likely that he was trying to talk about it without
really _knowing_ anything about it.
Although it would be consistent with his other beliefs to at least be
neutral towards it (which is better than most of his contemporaries
would have done).
>He didn't contradict any of my knowledge, but it never quite seemed to ring
>true.
--
Chris Byler cby...@vt.edu
"I'm not a speed reader. I'm a speed understander."
-- Isaac Asimov
Chris Byler
>In <F6v3I...@kithrup.com> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>: In article <79nt0q$l...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>,
>: Morgan E. Smith <mes...@calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
>:>
>:>.... and it makes no
>:>never mind to me if I'm told that Dorothy Heydt is in reality not the
>:>friendly Mommy she always portrays here: if I found out she was really a
>:>pistol-packin' bankrobber currently in San Quentin doing a life-sentence,
>:>I still wouldn't care.
>
>: I come across as a friendly Mommy?
>
>No.
Only if compared to Graydon.
(No insult intended to either of you.)
Erica Sadun
:
:Most Pennsylvania Dutch came from either Hesse or Bavaria, I believe.
:Or at least their ancestors did.
For some reason, I recall they came from Alsace-Lorraine & Switzerland.
Perhaps, I'm thinking of the Mennonites. (From Emmenthal, Berne, etc. )
I recall that the anabaptist break spread out from Zurich. And
the Amish are certainly of that anabaptist/Wiedertaufer movement.
(Though, come to think of it, wasn't Menno from the netherlands?
So why am I thinking that the Amish came from primarily swiss roots?)
Oh well, -- Erica
--
===========================ERICA SADUN================================
Grep poop whilst ye may, oh babies of the Spring...
er...@galileo.cudenver.edu.nospam
======================================================================
hoKEy wOLf
>In article <36BFE01A...@home.com>, Jay Random <j.ra...@home.com> wrote:
>>_Grumbles From The Grave_ & other sources combine to give the strong
>>impression that he was frustrated & rather appalled at the bozosity
>>with which the Church of All Worlds took his paean to freethinking &
>>turned it into a cultish BOOK OF TRVTH. His utterances on the subject
>>rather remind me of _The Life Of Brian_.
Dan Rather?
>I think something of the same thing happened to Ivan Stang, inventor
>of the satiric Church of the SubGenius. It was a funny joke, and then
>for a lot of people it became a REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT joke that they
>took VERY SERIOUSLY, and they pestered Stang to death about it.
>
>I've sometimes wondered why that never seems to happen to the
>Discordians, and the conclusion I've come to is that unlike _The Book
>of the SubGenius_ or _Stranger in a Strange Land_, the _Principia
>Discordia_ is an extremely short book. There's hardly anything in
>there at all, so if you want to be a Discordian, you're obviously not
>going to be able to do it by following the book.
>
>On the other hand, it might just be that the authors of the Principia
>are nearly anonymous.
I didn't write any of it
Timothy Sutter
> >On the other hand, it might just be that the authors of the Principia
> >are nearly anonymous.
> I didn't write any of it
I didn't read any of it.
--
Phil Fraering
>> I come across as a friendly Mommy?
> Well, I was going for hyperbole. But you do come
>across as having a lot
>of life-experience, and you're full of useful
>advice (like polite versions
>of "Shut up, go to bed, no you cannot have another
>drink of water" for
>people like Jay and me who go tootling off the
>deep end at the drop of a
>faucet-washer) so "Mommy" was my first best shot.
> But, hey, I'm flexible. I will henceforth describe
>you as the Goddess of
>the Ether, if you feel that's more dignified. :-)
I suggest the title "rec.arts.sf.written Official Matron."
Phil
--
Phil Fraering "It is also for adults, of course, except for those
p...@globalreach.net who think they do not want to see a film about
/Will work for *tape*/ anything so preposterous as a seal-woman, and
who will get what they deserve." - Roger Ebert
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) wrote:
(snip)
> Ironically, the Netherlandish cognate of Dutch, deutsch, and tedesco has
> gone out of use.
Really? They've stopped using "Duits" in the last couple of years?
I think maybe I want a second opinion on that one.
But in any case the Danes still have "tysk" (presumably the same word in
Norwegian and Swedish, and possibly Icelandic, but I don't remember).
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) wrote:
(snip)
> Ironically, the Netherlandish cognate of Dutch, deutsch, and tedesco has
> gone out of use.
Sorry, no cigar. I just did a search of a Dutch-language newsgroup about
language (i.e. I did "~g (nl.taal) + Duits" in DejaNews), and came up with 45
hits in 1999 so far. So I think "duits" is still alive and kicking.
Or did I misunderstand what you were trying to say?
Dan Goodman
<pricer...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <p9Mv2.286$k22....@ptah.visi.com>,
> dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) wrote:
>(snip)
>> Ironically, the Netherlandish cognate of Dutch, deutsch, and tedesco has
>> gone out of use.
>
>I think maybe I want a second opinion on that one.
Sorry; I should have said "out of fashion".
>But in any case the Danes still have "tysk" (presumably the same word in
>Norwegian and Swedish, and possibly Icelandic, but I don't remember).
If it's an old term, it's probably still there in Icelandic.
Iceland -- where you can learn what other Scandinavians abandoned in favor
of lutefisk....
--
Dan Goodman
<pricer...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article <p9Mv2.286$k22....@ptah.visi.com>,
> dsg...@visi.com (Dan Goodman) wrote:
>(snip)
>> Ironically, the Netherlandish cognate of Dutch, deutsch, and tedesco has
>> gone out of use.
>
>language (i.e. I did "~g (nl.taal) + Duits" in DejaNews), and came up with 45
>hits in 1999 so far. So I think "duits" is still alive and kicking.
>
>Or did I misunderstand what you were trying to say?
I goofed.
St. Mae
uninterested.
In alt.discordia Mark-Jason Dominus <m...@op.net> wrote:
: I think something of the same thing happened to Ivan Stang, inventor
: of the satiric Church of the SubGenius. It was a funny joke, and then
: for a lot of people it became a REALLY REALLY IMPORTANT joke that they
: took VERY SERIOUSLY, and they pestered Stang to death about it.
Indeed. SubG stuff has always struck me as a little elitist and "for
profit". They may not be pink, but they sure can be grey sometimes....
: I've sometimes wondered why that never seems to happen to the
: Discordians, and the conclusion I've come to is that unlike _The Book
: of the SubGenius_ or _Stranger in a Strange Land_, the _Principia
: Discordia_ is an extremely short book. There's hardly anything in
: there at all, so if you want to be a Discordian, you're obviously not
: going to be able to do it by following the book.
If you really read the Bible, you'll come across many contradictions. You
would think it would mean you couldn't be Christian by following the
Book, but many people do just that, every day. In order to retain some
sort of sanity to their faith, they have to interpret the Bible - pick
and choose which side of the contradictions they'll adhere to, and which
side they will choose to ignore. Often, this is not done by individual
Christians but by dead famous people, who started churches of their own.
Much like the title Episkipos, Martin Luther of the Lutherans, whoever of
the Presbyterians, and whoever of the Baptists have defined their own
branch of the Christian faith by making their own interpretations and
emphases in a somewhat altered Bible.
The same happens with Discordian stuff, but in a more obvious manner.
Since the Principia was written to be surreal and somewhat a parody of
other Books, it is impossible to follow it without seeing the absurdity
of the situation. In a way, we can almost see Illuminatus! as Principia
Commentary. Just as the catecisms <sp?> of the Catholic Church define
modern Catholicism as much if not more than the Bible does, Illuminatus!
defines the beliefs and practises of Discordians much more than the
Principia does. At one time, Catholics were not even allowed to read
their Bible. While we can read our Book, it is written in a manner so
absurd that we often turn to RAW for an interpretation.
Not that I wouldn't do Hagbard and Mavis both, but I don't think relying
on another's interpretation of a religion is fitting nor right. What is
religion but the method one uses for a personal relationship with
creation <call it chaos, call it God - it's the same thing>? Just like in
K-Mart clothing, in religion: one size does *not* fit all.
: On the other hand, it might just be that the authors of the Principia
: are nearly anonymous.
Again, RAW has become our Stang/Jesus/Luther/etc. We all need a role
model and a hero sometime, but if you've been around Erisian circles for
a while <and I have>, you will notice that the deification of RAW is
somewhat ridiculous, by now. YOU ARE YOUR OWN CHRIST. Remember that.
</RANT>
--------------------><----------------------
Episkipos St. Mae Victoria the Red Sage, KSC
hail...@crl.com, sain...@cacophony.org
PO Box 201831, Denver, CO 80220-7831
Hail Eris. All hail Discordia.
comming soon - www.discordian.com-----------
Graydon
Chris Byler <cby...@REMOVE-TO-REPLY.vt.edu> wrote:
>On 9 Feb 1999 02:08:39 GMT, Gary Farber <gfa...@panix.com> wrote:
>>In <F6v3I...@kithrup.com> Dorothy J Heydt <djh...@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>: In article <79nt0q$l...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>,
>>: Morgan E. Smith <mes...@calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
>>:>.... and it makes no
>>:>never mind to me if I'm told that Dorothy Heydt is in reality not the
>>:>friendly Mommy she always portrays here: if I found out she was really a
>>:>pistol-packin' bankrobber currently in San Quentin doing a life-sentence,
>>:>I still wouldn't care.
>>
>>: I come across as a friendly Mommy?
>>
>>No.
>
>Only if compared to Graydon.
I would have thought that there were a great many other folks on the
newsgroup equally ill equiped for at least the biological portion of
the 'Mommy' role.
>(No insult intended to either of you.)
Not insulted, just baffled.
--
graydon@ | He either fears his fate too much,/Or his deserts are small,
lara.on.ca | That puts it not to the touch,/To win or lose it all.
-- James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose 1612-1650
Dave
Timothy Sutter wrote in message <36C0EA...@usa.net>...
>hoKEy wOLf wrote:
>
>> >On the other hand, it might just be that the authors of the Principia
>> >are nearly anonymous.
>
>
>I didn't read any of it.
>--
>
~Dave
~Feshy
Nick Wise
>
> Timothy Sutter wrote in message <36C0EA...@usa.net>...
> >hoKEy wOLf wrote:
> >
> >> >On the other hand, it might just be that the authors of the Principia
> >> >are nearly anonymous.
> >
> >> I didn't write any of it
> >
> >I didn't read any of it.
> >
>
--
+
+ Nick Wise
+ head...@bellsouth.net
+
+ This life sure is strange, but what else have I to know?
+
Dorothy J Heydt
>
>I would have thought that there were a great many other folks on the
>newsgroup equally ill equiped for at least the biological portion of
>the 'Mommy' role.
Perhaps, on analogy to the thread in rasfc where we struggled
with the concepts of biological, social, and grammatical gender,
we can say that biological Mommyhood depends on biological
gender, but social Mommyhood (the only kind you're going to get
on the Net anyway, except when Tris and I start in on each other)
is available to anyone with an appropriate personality.
Madog Velkor
<timoth...@usa.net> jibbered semi-coherently:
>hoKEy wOLf wrote:
>
>> >On the other hand, it might just be that the authors of the Principia
>> >are nearly anonymous.
>
>> I didn't write any of it
>
>I didn't read any of it.
>--
Not even the cover?
Or the part with you in it?
-><-
Madog, Keeper of Bobo the Chimp
Lord of Petty Annoyances
Ambrose Bierce Mexican Travel Agency Cabal
http://members.xoom.com/ABMTAC
-><-
Chaos, pure chaos, and damned be the first to cry 'Enough'!
-><-
Madog Velkor
jibbered semi-coherently:
>
>Again, RAW has become our Stang/Jesus/Luther/etc. We all need a role
>model and a hero sometime, but if you've been around Erisian circles for
>a while <and I have>, you will notice that the deification of RAW is
>somewhat ridiculous, by now. YOU ARE YOUR OWN CHRIST. Remember that.
>
I use Bobo as my role model. He's very accomdating, seeing how I made
him up.
Mark-Jason Dominus
Please stop crossposting this to rec.arts.sf.written.
MattH...@my-dejanews.com
v...@interport.net (Vicki Rosenzweig) wrote:
>
> No. The definition you're groping for is that anyone whose mother
> is Jewish is Jewish. Male-line ancestry is irrelevant here.
>
Sounds like a revisionism to me.
--
Matt Hickman
She was shipped up to the Rock long ago for carving a man under
circumstances that left grave doubt as to her girlish innocence--
and has been opposed to violence and loose living ever since. Unless
necessary--she's no fanatic.
Robert A. Heinlein (1907 - 1988)
_The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress_ c 1966
Matt
: >I found part of it in my shampoo.
:
: Please stop crossposting this to rec.arts.sf.written.
Please start crossposting this to alt.fan.madonna.
pricer...@my-dejanews.com
> of lutefisk....
"What do you get when you mix LSD with lutefisk?"
SPOILER
SPOILER
SPOILER
"A trip to Ballard!"
(virtually incomprehensible to someone who doesn't know Seattle)
George, in cloudy Southeast Alaska, where some of us regard Seattle as part
of the Greater Juneau Area (and others regard it as part of the greater
_Petersburg_ Area)
C. M. Hagmaier
>
>
> "Can't afford no truck" That's a double negative. Does that mean you
> can afford a truck? :) Typical engineer, all math and no english.
> Me calling the kettle black :)
I propose that we officially retire this metaphor. All of my pots
and kettles are grey or chrome-colored.
Mitch Hagmaier
Quest Labs
Vicki Rosenzweig
wrote:
>In article <36c15dab...@news.interport.net>,
>Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@interport.net> wrote:
>>On Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:15:48 GMT, MattH...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>>>In article <F6p09...@kithrup.com>,
>>> djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>>>>
>>>> No, he wasn't Jewish.
>>>
>>>What is being Jewish? I thought theoretically, anyone who could count
>>>Abraham among his/her ancestors was Jewish. Considering one only need
>>>go back 1,000 years for the count of a generation of one's ancestors
>>>to exceeded the population of the Earth, just about everyone could be
>>>Jewish.
>>
>>No. The definition you're groping for is that anyone whose mother
>>is Jewish is Jewish. Male-line ancestry is irrelevant here.
>>
>>So you aren't counting all of a person's ancestor's, only one per
>>generation: the mother's mother's mothers's....mother back to the
>>time of Abraham.
>
>Note that Judaism accepts converts--this increases the chance that
>someone is Jewish by ancestry, but probably not by much.
Granted. My statement was true but not complete. Anyone whose
mother is Jewish is Jewish. So is anyone who chooses to convert
and, if that person is a woman, all her female-line descendants.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig
v...@interport.net | http://www.users.interport.net/~vr/
"with penguins and justice for all" -- Mary Kay Kare
Jaden
> In article <36C189C7...@bellsouth.net>,
> Nick Wise <headless...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >I found part of it in my shampoo.
>
> Please stop crossposting this to rec.arts.sf.written.
Stop crossposting what to rec.arts.sf.written?
---------------------------------------
Jaden ~ ja...@ufl.edu
*Suspicion Breeds Confidence*
www.eriswerks.org
There is no enemy
anywhere
Timothy Sutter
> Timothy Sutter pondered thoughtfully:
> >hoKEy wOLf wrote:
> >> >On the other hand, it might just be that the authors of the Principia
> >> >are nearly anonymous.
> >> I didn't write any of it
> >I didn't read any of it.
> Not even the cover?
> Or the part with you in it?
I'm having spagetti for dinner.
--
hoKEy wOLf
>On 10 Feb 1999 11:20:08 -0500, m...@op.net (Mark-Jason Dominus) wrote:
>
>> In article <36C189C7...@bellsouth.net>,
>> Nick Wise <headless...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >I found part of it in my shampoo.
>>
>> Please stop crossposting this to rec.arts.sf.written.
>
>Stop crossposting what to rec.arts.sf.written?
If you people were watching the Adam 12 marathon you wouldn't notice any
crossposting
Timothy Sutter
> Ja...@nospam.ufl.edu wrote:
> >Mark-Jason Dominus) wrote:
> >> Nick Wise wrote:
> >> >I found part of it in my shampoo.
> >> Please stop crossposting this to rec.arts.sf.written.
> >Stop crossposting what to rec.arts.sf.written?
> If you people were watching the Adam 12 marathon you wouldn't notice any
> crossposting
Q. how many computer techs does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. they don't know, they're still consulting the manual.
Q. how many computer techs does it take to consult a manual?
A. when they fix the lightbulb, they'll find out.
--
Nick Wise
>
> In article <36c3f28b...@news.giganews.com>, Ja...@nospam.ufl.edu wrote:
>
> >On 10 Feb 1999 11:20:08 -0500, m...@op.net (Mark-Jason Dominus) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <36C189C7...@bellsouth.net>,
> >> >I found part of it in my shampoo.
> >>
> >> Please stop crossposting this to rec.arts.sf.written.
> >
> >Stop crossposting what to rec.arts.sf.written?
>
> If you people were watching the Adam 12 marathon you wouldn't notice any
> crossposting
Who is crossposting? I don't see what you guys are talking about.
Hey! Anyone here crossposting?