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The Death of Written SF (was Re: Farscape & Firefly
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Duggy
Nov 16, 2011, 5:01:28 PM11/16/11
to
On Nov 17, 7:44 am, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
> On 11/16/2011 2:40 PM, Duggy wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 3:21 am, David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
> >> On 11/11/2011 3:34 AM, Duggy wrote:
>
> >>> On Nov 11, 1:26 pm, grinningdemon<grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 6 Nov 2011 16:17:32 -0800 (PST), Duggy
> >>>> <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> >>>>> Because it was cliche plot full of cliche characters.
> >>>> You call it cliche...I call it a staple of the genre...and better done
> >>>> than any other example I can think of.
>
> >>> Genre cliches bore me. I don't watch detective shows because the
> >>> murder of the week cliche and the staple characters bore me. Sometime
> >>> of these shows have interesting dialogue but that isn't enough. Then
> >>> you have shows like The Wire which do something new and interesting
> >>> and they are actually watchable.
>
> >>> SF needs to grow up and break away from its staples.
>
> >> To a large extend science fiction did. That's why it's dieing out.
>
> > Really? Which shows?
>
> Sorry, I mean to say "written" science fiction.
Written has always explored beyond the staples and had varying degrees
of success.
It's also had different periods of boom and bust for formulaic and non-
formulaic stuff.
I know that Supernatural Romance is taking up a lot of space on
bookshelves that SF used to take up, but is it really dying?
===
= DUG.
===
> On 11/16/2011 2:40 PM, Duggy wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 3:21 am, David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
> >> On 11/11/2011 3:34 AM, Duggy wrote:
>
> >>> On Nov 11, 1:26 pm, grinningdemon<grinningde...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 6 Nov 2011 16:17:32 -0800 (PST), Duggy
> >>>> <Paul.Dug...@jcu.edu.au> wrote:
> >>>>> Because it was cliche plot full of cliche characters.
> >>>> You call it cliche...I call it a staple of the genre...and better done
> >>>> than any other example I can think of.
>
> >>> Genre cliches bore me. I don't watch detective shows because the
> >>> murder of the week cliche and the staple characters bore me. Sometime
> >>> of these shows have interesting dialogue but that isn't enough. Then
> >>> you have shows like The Wire which do something new and interesting
> >>> and they are actually watchable.
>
> >>> SF needs to grow up and break away from its staples.
>
> >> To a large extend science fiction did. That's why it's dieing out.
>
> > Really? Which shows?
>
> Sorry, I mean to say "written" science fiction.
Written has always explored beyond the staples and had varying degrees
of success.
It's also had different periods of boom and bust for formulaic and non-
formulaic stuff.
I know that Supernatural Romance is taking up a lot of space on
bookshelves that SF used to take up, but is it really dying?
===
= DUG.
===
David Johnston
Nov 16, 2011, 5:36:23 PM11/16/11
to
it's hard to find one that no author will ever write for again.
Duggy
Nov 16, 2011, 5:52:49 PM11/16/11
to
===
= DUG.
===
David Johnston
Nov 16, 2011, 8:19:55 PM11/16/11
to
Edward McArdle
Nov 16, 2011, 9:32:37 PM11/16/11
to
In article <ja1nfp$jfm$2...@dont-email.me>, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>On 11/16/2011 3:52 PM, Duggy wrote:
>> On Nov 17, 8:36 am, David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>>> On 11/16/2011 3:01 PM, Duggy wrote:
....
>On 11/16/2011 3:52 PM, Duggy wrote:
>> On Nov 17, 8:36 am, David Johnston<Da...@block.net> wrote:
>>> On 11/16/2011 3:01 PM, Duggy wrote:
>>
>> SF has had different periods of boom and bust.
>
>Really? Map it for me please?
I think one of the problems with SF is that the science has got so far
>> SF has had different periods of boom and bust.
>
>Really? Map it for me please?
"out there" (string theory, black holes, the strange physics of the
universe...) that it has become difficult to write an up-to-date
scientific story!
--
Edward McArdle
Quadibloc
Nov 17, 2011, 1:17:03 PM11/17/11
to
On Nov 16, 3:01 pm, Duggy <p.allan.dug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Written has always explored beyond the staples and had varying degrees
> of success.
>
> It's also had different periods of boom and bust for formulaic and non-
> formulaic stuff.
Serious SF that isn't so dark as to be an acquired taste certainly is
> Written has always explored beyond the staples and had varying degrees
> of success.
>
> It's also had different periods of boom and bust for formulaic and non-
> formulaic stuff.
not as easy to find as, say, from 1940 to 1969. And, similarly, genre
SF for pure entertainment had a heyday from 1930 to 1959... although
it continued on through the 70s to an extent.
There are multiple causes.
Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
So now a society with FTL should have undergone the Singularity
centuries previously, and stories about people with godlike powers
tend to be short.
There are workarounds, but the range is limited enough so that sword
and sorcery has less risk of being accused of copying someone else's
idea.
Then there's the cost of paper these days, the fact that the Internet
has killed TV, never mind books...
But the good stuff would still find a market. It's books like "Galaxy
666" by Pel Torro that we may not see in the English-speaking world
again.,.
John Savard
Michael Stemper
Nov 17, 2011, 1:48:36 PM11/17/11
to
In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>
>Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>
>Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
as we currently understand them.
>So now a society with FTL should have undergone the Singularity
>centuries previously, and stories about people with godlike powers
>tend to be short.
>
>There are workarounds, but the range is limited enough so that sword
>and sorcery has less risk of being accused of copying someone else's
>idea.
1. In most SF, the "idea" isn't "how people get around c", it's
"what would the people and society look like if X and Y?"
2. I've heard that sword and sorcery has a lot of overlap in
settings and backgrounds.
>Then there's the cost of paper these days,
or the idea that the cost of paper is a significant part of the cost
of a book?
>But the good stuff would still find a market. It's books like "Galaxy
>666" by Pel Torro that we may not see in the English-speaking world
>again.,.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Visualize whirled peas!
Joseph Nebus
Nov 17, 2011, 2:39:34 PM11/17/11
to
In <ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>
>>Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>as we currently understand them.
We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
>In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>
>>Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>as we currently understand them.
changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
--
http://nebusresearch.wordpress.com/ Joseph Nebus
Current Entry: Descartes and the Fear of the Negative
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Johnston
Nov 17, 2011, 2:45:33 PM11/17/11
to
On 11/17/2011 12:39 PM, Joseph Nebus wrote:
> In<ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>
>> In article<2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
>>> Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>>
>>> Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>> breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>> more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>> requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
>> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>> as we currently understand them.
>
> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
> changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
>
We were a lot more confident that we'd be finding new laws of physics in
> In<ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>
>> In article<2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
>>> Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>>
>>> Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>> breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>> more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>> requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
>> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>> as we currently understand them.
>
> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
> changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
>
the 1930s.
Michael Stemper
Nov 17, 2011, 3:12:26 PM11/17/11
to
In article <ja3ntm$l6b$1...@reader1.panix.com>, nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
>In <ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>>In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>>Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>>
>>>Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>>breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>>more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>>requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
>>Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>>as we currently understand them.
>
> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
>changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
Sure we did. We just ignored it or hand-waved it. Kind of like we
>In <ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>>In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>>Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>>
>>>Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>>breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>>more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>>requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
>>Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>>as we currently understand them.
>
> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
>changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
do today. Actually, the occasional "must conform to laws of physics"
has given us an additional sub-genre: STL/NAFAL interstellar societies.
I'm thinking here of folks like Reynolds, McCarthy, and somebody
else whose name starts with "Mc".
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Kip Williams
Nov 17, 2011, 3:18:13 PM11/17/11
to
Kip W
rasfw
Dimensional Traveler
Nov 17, 2011, 3:40:07 PM11/17/11
to
On 11/17/2011 10:48 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
> In article<2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
>> Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>
>> Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>> breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>> more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>> requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
> as we currently understand them.
>
Or changing our current understanding of the laws of physics.
> In article<2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
>> Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>
>> Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>> breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>> more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>> requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
> as we currently understand them.
>
David Dyer-Bennet
Nov 17, 2011, 3:40:56 PM11/17/11
to
nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
> In <ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>
>>In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
>>>Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>>
>>>Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>>breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>>more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>>requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
>>Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>>as we currently understand them.
>
> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
> changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
Well, we've improved the experimental verification of relativity quite a
> In <ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>
>>In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
>>>Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>>
>>>Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>>breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>>more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>>requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
>>Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>>as we currently understand them.
>
> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
> changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
bit since then. And a generation or three has grown up taking it for
granted.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
Dimensional Traveler
Nov 17, 2011, 3:41:20 PM11/17/11
to
way around.
Dimensional Traveler
Nov 17, 2011, 3:49:57 PM11/17/11
to
On 11/17/2011 12:40 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
>
>> In<ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>>
>>> In article<2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>
>>>> Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>>>
>>>> Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>>> breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>>> more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>>> requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>>
>>> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>>> as we currently understand them.
>>
>> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
>> changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
>
> Well, we've improved the experimental verification of relativity quite a
> bit since then. And a generation or three has grown up taking it for
> granted.
Yet we still can't explain spooky action at a distance.
> nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
>
>> In<ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>>
>>> In article<2860052d-f0cb-4baa...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc<jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>>
>>>> Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>>>>
>>>> Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
>>>> breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
>>>> more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
>>>> requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>>
>>> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>>> as we currently understand them.
>>
>> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
>> changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
>
> Well, we've improved the experimental verification of relativity quite a
> bit since then. And a generation or three has grown up taking it for
> granted.
David Dyer-Bennet
Nov 17, 2011, 4:20:08 PM11/17/11
to
sorts of levels lying around everywhere.
Haven't the quantum people got some theories covering many of those
cases?
Michael Stemper
Nov 17, 2011, 5:05:16 PM11/17/11
to
In article <ylfkaa7u...@dd-b.net>, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> writes:
>> On 11/17/2011 12:40 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
>>>> In<ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>>>>> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>>>>> as we currently understand them.
>>>>
>>>> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
>>>> changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
>>>
>>> Well, we've improved the experimental verification of relativity quite a
>>> bit since then. And a generation or three has grown up taking it for
>>> granted.
>>
>> Yet we still can't explain spooky action at a distance.
>
>There are great big huge heaping piles of things we can't explain at all
>sorts of levels lying around everywhere.
>
>Haven't the quantum people got some theories covering many of those
>cases?
If I recall correctly from Brian Greene's thing on Nova last night, it
>Dimensional Traveler <dtr...@sonic.net> writes:
>> On 11/17/2011 12:40 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: nebusj-@-rpi-.edu (Joseph Nebus) writes:
>>>> In<ja3ku3$54p$2...@dont-email.me> mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) writes:
>>>>> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
>>>>> as we currently understand them.
>>>>
>>>> We didn't understand that faster-than-light travel required
>>>> changes to the laws of physics in the 1930s?
>>>
>>> Well, we've improved the experimental verification of relativity quite a
>>> bit since then. And a generation or three has grown up taking it for
>>> granted.
>>
>> Yet we still can't explain spooky action at a distance.
>
>There are great big huge heaping piles of things we can't explain at all
>sorts of levels lying around everywhere.
>
>Haven't the quantum people got some theories covering many of those
>cases?
was basically "It's what the equations say, that's why it works that
way".
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Robert Bannister
Nov 17, 2011, 5:29:33 PM11/17/11
to
On 18/11/11 2:17 AM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Nov 16, 3:01 pm, Duggy<p.allan.dug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Written has always explored beyond the staples and had varying degrees
>> of success.
>>
>> It's also had different periods of boom and bust for formulaic and non-
>> formulaic stuff.
>
> Serious SF that isn't so dark as to be an acquired taste certainly is
> not as easy to find as, say, from 1940 to 1969. And, similarly, genre
> SF for pure entertainment had a heyday from 1930 to 1959... although
> it continued on through the 70s to an extent.
>
> There are multiple causes.
>
> Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>
> Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
> breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
> more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
> requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.
It requires a great deal more than advanced technology - it would
> On Nov 16, 3:01 pm, Duggy<p.allan.dug...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Written has always explored beyond the staples and had varying degrees
>> of success.
>>
>> It's also had different periods of boom and bust for formulaic and non-
>> formulaic stuff.
>
> Serious SF that isn't so dark as to be an acquired taste certainly is
> not as easy to find as, say, from 1940 to 1969. And, similarly, genre
> SF for pure entertainment had a heyday from 1930 to 1959... although
> it continued on through the 70s to an extent.
>
> There are multiple causes.
>
> Fantasy has replaced SF as a major genre for escapist reading.
>
> Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
> breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
> more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
> requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.
require a rewrite of significant portions of physics and mathematics. So
we're stuck with boring Mars, almost inaccessible Venus and the hope of
some moons round Jupiter and Saturn.
Perhaps we can go back 40 or 50 years and go into "another dimension".
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Nov 17, 2011, 5:32:57 PM11/17/11
to
On 18/11/11 2:48 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
> Like Buridan's ass, I'm torn between pointing out that:
> 1. In most SF, the "idea" isn't "how people get around c", it's
> "what would the people and society look like if X and Y?"
> 2. I've heard that sword and sorcery has a lot of overlap in
> settings and backgrounds.
Not just sword and sorcery - cowboy films, detective stories and many
> Like Buridan's ass, I'm torn between pointing out that:
> 1. In most SF, the "idea" isn't "how people get around c", it's
> "what would the people and society look like if X and Y?"
> 2. I've heard that sword and sorcery has a lot of overlap in
> settings and backgrounds.
other genres. A pontificating John Wayne would not be out of place in
many SF scenarios.
--
Robert Bannister
Michael Stemper
Nov 17, 2011, 5:45:30 PM11/17/11
to
In article <9ilgcr...@mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
>On 18/11/11 2:48 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
>> Like Buridan's ass, I'm torn between pointing out that:
>> 1. In most SF, the "idea" isn't "how people get around c", it's
>> "what would the people and society look like if X and Y?"
>> 2. I've heard that sword and sorcery has a lot of overlap in
>> settings and backgrounds.
>
>Not just sword and sorcery - cowboy films, detective stories and many
>other genres.
Oh, absolutely. I was responding to Quaddy's specific statement that
>On 18/11/11 2:48 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
>> Like Buridan's ass, I'm torn between pointing out that:
>> 1. In most SF, the "idea" isn't "how people get around c", it's
>> "what would the people and society look like if X and Y?"
>> 2. I've heard that sword and sorcery has a lot of overlap in
>> settings and backgrounds.
>
>Not just sword and sorcery - cowboy films, detective stories and many
>other genres.
avoiding setting overlap was driving authors to sword and sorcery,
but it's just as applicable to other genres.
> A pontificating John Wayne would not be out of place in
>many SF scenarios.
probably make a good Lazarus Long, as well.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Jerry Brown
Nov 17, 2011, 7:04:22 PM11/17/11
to
On Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:45:30 +0000 (UTC),
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <9ilgcr...@mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
>>On 18/11/11 2:48 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
>
>>> Like Buridan's ass, I'm torn between pointing out that:
>>> 1. In most SF, the "idea" isn't "how people get around c", it's
>>> "what would the people and society look like if X and Y?"
>>> 2. I've heard that sword and sorcery has a lot of overlap in
>>> settings and backgrounds.
>>
>>Not just sword and sorcery - cowboy films, detective stories and many
>>other genres.
>
>Oh, absolutely. I was responding to Quaddy's specific statement that
>avoiding setting overlap was driving authors to sword and sorcery,
>but it's just as applicable to other genres.
>
>> A pontificating John Wayne would not be out of place in
>>many SF scenarios.
>
>I bet you could find a role for him in every Heinlein juvenile. He'd
>probably make a good Lazarus Long, as well.
Nah, David Caruso is the man for that role.
mste...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper) wrote:
>In article <9ilgcr...@mid.individual.net>, Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
>>On 18/11/11 2:48 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
>
>>> Like Buridan's ass, I'm torn between pointing out that:
>>> 1. In most SF, the "idea" isn't "how people get around c", it's
>>> "what would the people and society look like if X and Y?"
>>> 2. I've heard that sword and sorcery has a lot of overlap in
>>> settings and backgrounds.
>>
>>Not just sword and sorcery - cowboy films, detective stories and many
>>other genres.
>
>Oh, absolutely. I was responding to Quaddy's specific statement that
>avoiding setting overlap was driving authors to sword and sorcery,
>but it's just as applicable to other genres.
>
>> A pontificating John Wayne would not be out of place in
>>many SF scenarios.
>
>I bet you could find a role for him in every Heinlein juvenile. He'd
>probably make a good Lazarus Long, as well.
--
Jerry Brown
A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
William George Ferguson
Nov 17, 2011, 7:20:35 PM11/17/11
to
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:29:33 +0800, Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com>
wrote:
I believe that 'it would require' is overtating the situation. Let's
consider what it would take to make Venus and Mars habitable for Earth
humans.
Venus gets a pass on what I would consider the biggest hurdle, the
mass/gravity. It's already close enough to Earth's so that it isn't a
problem. The big problems with Venus are the atmosphere and the geothermal
activity. The problem with the atmosphere is just too darn much carbon and
not enough hydrogen. There's also rather more sulpher in the atmosphere
than we'd like to end up with. The solution would probably involve
nanotechnology but the real thing, not the sf 'magic wand' substitute.
Basically we would need to design and mass produce tailored extremophile
bacteria which would be seeded into the atmosphere and onto the surface to
fix sulpher into something less problematic tha sulfuric acid (sulpher
dioxide) which is currently the third larges compenent in Venus' atmosphere
(a distant third, but still). The bacteria seeded to the ground would be
disigned to 'eat' carbon dioxide and fix carbon into the planetary surface
with the mid-term goal of kick-starting the carbon cycle.
Another problem is Venus virtual lack of a magnetosphere, even though its
core should be roughly the same composition as Earth's (it can't be too
different or the mass/density of the planets wouldn't match so closely). An
allied problem is the planet's lack of rotation (there's probably a
chicken/egg question involved here). To work on these two problems
probably will require a more macroscopic approach than microscpic. The
first, and least theoretical approach is the brute force of controlled
planetary bombardment with asteroids.
Note that none of the above requires a new understanding of the laws of
physics or chemistry, or an ;understanding on 'how' that we don't currently
have (there's a difference, of course, in understanding how to do
something, and actually being able to do it). Basically all the above is
engineering, not theoretical physics.
Mars adds the gravity problem, ;which is more problematic than anything
we'd need to do with Venus. My engineering solution there is to
build/delve guide shafts at both poles and then send Very High Speed
meteors with a concentration of radioactive isotopes into them, basically
to build up the core, both in mass and in composition. This would likely
take longer than terraforming Venus atmosphere. Still, it doesn't require
re-thinking any laws of physics, just attacking an engineering problem with
adequate resources.
Again, terraforming Venus and Mars doesn't require readica changes in the
laws of physics, just long term and resource-expensive engineering projects
(likely to take a couple of hundred years for either planet, maybe more).
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)
wrote:
consider what it would take to make Venus and Mars habitable for Earth
humans.
Venus gets a pass on what I would consider the biggest hurdle, the
mass/gravity. It's already close enough to Earth's so that it isn't a
problem. The big problems with Venus are the atmosphere and the geothermal
activity. The problem with the atmosphere is just too darn much carbon and
not enough hydrogen. There's also rather more sulpher in the atmosphere
than we'd like to end up with. The solution would probably involve
nanotechnology but the real thing, not the sf 'magic wand' substitute.
Basically we would need to design and mass produce tailored extremophile
bacteria which would be seeded into the atmosphere and onto the surface to
fix sulpher into something less problematic tha sulfuric acid (sulpher
dioxide) which is currently the third larges compenent in Venus' atmosphere
(a distant third, but still). The bacteria seeded to the ground would be
disigned to 'eat' carbon dioxide and fix carbon into the planetary surface
with the mid-term goal of kick-starting the carbon cycle.
Another problem is Venus virtual lack of a magnetosphere, even though its
core should be roughly the same composition as Earth's (it can't be too
different or the mass/density of the planets wouldn't match so closely). An
allied problem is the planet's lack of rotation (there's probably a
chicken/egg question involved here). To work on these two problems
probably will require a more macroscopic approach than microscpic. The
first, and least theoretical approach is the brute force of controlled
planetary bombardment with asteroids.
Note that none of the above requires a new understanding of the laws of
physics or chemistry, or an ;understanding on 'how' that we don't currently
have (there's a difference, of course, in understanding how to do
something, and actually being able to do it). Basically all the above is
engineering, not theoretical physics.
Mars adds the gravity problem, ;which is more problematic than anything
we'd need to do with Venus. My engineering solution there is to
build/delve guide shafts at both poles and then send Very High Speed
meteors with a concentration of radioactive isotopes into them, basically
to build up the core, both in mass and in composition. This would likely
take longer than terraforming Venus atmosphere. Still, it doesn't require
re-thinking any laws of physics, just attacking an engineering problem with
adequate resources.
Again, terraforming Venus and Mars doesn't require readica changes in the
laws of physics, just long term and resource-expensive engineering projects
(likely to take a couple of hundred years for either planet, maybe more).
--
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
(Bene Gesserit)
David Johnston
Nov 17, 2011, 7:26:54 PM11/17/11
to
Kip Williams
Nov 17, 2011, 7:52:26 PM11/17/11
to
Kip W
rasfw
Robert Carnegie
Nov 17, 2011, 7:54:22 PM11/17/11
to
On Nov 17, 6:48 pm, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
wrote:
days. We just read "Mother of Invention".
wrote:
> In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa-9f85-855fdea19...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
> >Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
> >breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
> >more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
> >requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
> as we currently understand them.
Which was a lot easier to get away with doing mid-story in the old
> >Escapist SF, after all, has to cope with the fact that a Mars with a
> >breathable atmosphere and humanoid inhabitants isn't plausible any
> >more. This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
> >requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
> as we currently understand them.
days. We just read "Mother of Invention".
Wayne Throop
Nov 17, 2011, 7:34:52 PM11/17/11
to
::: It requires a great deal more than advanced technology - it would
: I believe that 'it would require' is overtating the situation. Let's
He said it was required for FTL, and without FTL, mars, venus,
and some moons are what we can reach. Whether we can terraform
them when we reach them is a separate question.
And terraforming isn't going to happen in the near term, so you're
stuck with "humans have *very* powerful technologies, so the society
is going to be very foreign" in any fiction in the post-terraformed
setting, even if the technologies don't actually require new physics.
I mean... you might be able to understand Francis Sandow, but would you
be able to understand if the novels were only about Shimbo of Darktree,
Shrugger of Thunders? Actually, one way of looking at Shimbo (and the
other worldscapers in that setting) is as a way to deal with the same
issues Vinge deals with by pushing all the transcended Powers out
beyond the Beyond.
( Yes, those settings have FTL, but the issue is that Francis/Shimbo
is a worldscaper, which is beyond human capacity. )
"Just because someone is older than you and can pull a rabbit
out of a hat doesn't make them a god or a demon."
--- Jin to Shelly
"Again? That trick never works."
--- Rocket J. Squirrel
"Squirrel!"
--- Dug http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EkCdK6bUls
"Squirrels! Squirrels!"
--- Candace Flynn
"I'm sorry, did I do something wrong?"
--- Grace Sciuridae
::: require a rewrite of significant portions of physics and
::: mathematics. So we're stuck with boring Mars, almost inaccessible
::: Venus and the hope of some moons round Jupiter and Saturn.
:: It requires a great deal more than advanced technology - it would
::: mathematics. So we're stuck with boring Mars, almost inaccessible
::: Venus and the hope of some moons round Jupiter and Saturn.
:: require a rewrite of significant portions of physics and mathematics.
:: So we're stuck with boring Mars, almost inaccessible Venus and the
:: hope of some moons round Jupiter and Saturn.
: William George Ferguson <wmgf...@newsguy.com>
:: So we're stuck with boring Mars, almost inaccessible Venus and the
:: hope of some moons round Jupiter and Saturn.
: I believe that 'it would require' is overtating the situation. Let's
: consider what it would take to make Venus and Mars habitable for Earth
: humans.
But he didn't say it was required to terraform venus and/or mars.
: humans.
He said it was required for FTL, and without FTL, mars, venus,
and some moons are what we can reach. Whether we can terraform
them when we reach them is a separate question.
And terraforming isn't going to happen in the near term, so you're
stuck with "humans have *very* powerful technologies, so the society
is going to be very foreign" in any fiction in the post-terraformed
setting, even if the technologies don't actually require new physics.
I mean... you might be able to understand Francis Sandow, but would you
be able to understand if the novels were only about Shimbo of Darktree,
Shrugger of Thunders? Actually, one way of looking at Shimbo (and the
other worldscapers in that setting) is as a way to deal with the same
issues Vinge deals with by pushing all the transcended Powers out
beyond the Beyond.
( Yes, those settings have FTL, but the issue is that Francis/Shimbo
is a worldscaper, which is beyond human capacity. )
"Just because someone is older than you and can pull a rabbit
out of a hat doesn't make them a god or a demon."
--- Jin to Shelly
"Again? That trick never works."
--- Rocket J. Squirrel
"Squirrel!"
--- Dug http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EkCdK6bUls
"Squirrels! Squirrels!"
--- Candace Flynn
"I'm sorry, did I do something wrong?"
--- Grace Sciuridae
Dimensional Traveler
Nov 17, 2011, 10:07:13 PM11/17/11
to
Larry
Nov 18, 2011, 12:32:08 PM11/18/11
to
In article <mcardle-1711...@10.1.1.5>, mca...@ozemail.com.au
says...
The readership has also become more discerning. When I read 50 year old SF
(from my teen years) I am astonished at how many stories involve outright
violation of natural law, like inventing or discovering de facto perpetual
motion. Leinster's _The Wailing Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet
with a car battery, or Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind.
None of those would make it past an editor today.
Vampire fiction, OTOH, is just the old romance novel with a supernatural
twist.
?Harry Potter is about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing
what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight is about how important it is
to have a boyfriend.? - Stephen King
says...
(from my teen years) I am astonished at how many stories involve outright
violation of natural law, like inventing or discovering de facto perpetual
motion. Leinster's _The Wailing Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet
with a car battery, or Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind.
None of those would make it past an editor today.
Vampire fiction, OTOH, is just the old romance novel with a supernatural
twist.
?Harry Potter is about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing
what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight is about how important it is
to have a boyfriend.? - Stephen King
Andrew Plotkin
Nov 18, 2011, 12:40:08 PM11/18/11
to
In rec.arts.sf.written, Larry <lar...@peaksky.com> wrote:
>
> The readership has also become more discerning. When I read 50 year old SF
> (from my teen years) I am astonished at how many stories involve outright
> violation of natural law, like inventing or discovering de facto perpetual
> motion. Leinster's _The Wailing Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet
> with a car battery, or Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind.
> None of those would make it past an editor today.
I think you misunderstand the function of the editor.
>
> The readership has also become more discerning. When I read 50 year old SF
> (from my teen years) I am astonished at how many stories involve outright
> violation of natural law, like inventing or discovering de facto perpetual
> motion. Leinster's _The Wailing Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet
> with a car battery, or Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind.
> None of those would make it past an editor today.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
Quadibloc
Nov 18, 2011, 1:09:49 PM11/18/11
to
On Nov 17, 11:48 am, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
since faster-than-light travel would require a major and fundamental
scientific discovery that profoundly extended our knowledge of the
laws of physics...
a reader would plausibly expect it to happen in the "far future"...
and thus technology such as electronics and medical care would, to be
consistent, have to be very far advanced, with major resulting changes
in the human condition.
That was something science-fiction writers didn't have to reckon with
back in the 1960s; today, classic space opera will ring false because
of that.
John Savard
wrote:
> In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa-9f85-855fdea19...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
> In article <2860052d-f0cb-4baa-9f85-855fdea19...@k5g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Quadibloc <jsav...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
> >This isn't a deadly obstacle, but throwing in FTL... now
> >requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
> as we currently understand them.
I see that the sense of my sentence wasn't clear. What I meant was:
> >requires technology in advance of what we already have to make sense.,
>
> Not just better technology, it requires changes to the laws of physics
> as we currently understand them.
since faster-than-light travel would require a major and fundamental
scientific discovery that profoundly extended our knowledge of the
laws of physics...
a reader would plausibly expect it to happen in the "far future"...
and thus technology such as electronics and medical care would, to be
consistent, have to be very far advanced, with major resulting changes
in the human condition.
That was something science-fiction writers didn't have to reckon with
back in the 1960s; today, classic space opera will ring false because
of that.
John Savard
Wayne Throop
Nov 18, 2011, 1:39:47 PM11/18/11
to
: Larry <lar...@peaksky.com>
: The readership has also become more discerning. When I read 50 year old SF
Have you *read* much recent science fiction?
For just one thing among many, "Newton was all wet and reactionless
space drives are possible" is as common as dirt, and "conservation of
angular momentum is all wrong" (ie, teleportation works) also.
: The readership has also become more discerning. When I read 50 year old SF
: (from my teen years) I am astonished at how many stories involve outright
: violation of natural law, like inventing or discovering de facto perpetual
: motion. Leinster's _The Wailing Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet
: with a car battery, or Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind.
: None of those would make it past an editor today.
You mean... on grounds of scientific accuracy? Seriously?
: violation of natural law, like inventing or discovering de facto perpetual
: motion. Leinster's _The Wailing Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet
: with a car battery, or Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind.
: None of those would make it past an editor today.
Have you *read* much recent science fiction?
For just one thing among many, "Newton was all wet and reactionless
space drives are possible" is as common as dirt, and "conservation of
angular momentum is all wrong" (ie, teleportation works) also.
Brian M. Scott
Nov 18, 2011, 5:35:23 PM11/18/11
to
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:32:08 -0800, Larry
<lar...@peaksky.com> wrote in
<news:MPG.2930360f8...@news.aioe.org> in
rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh,rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> Vampire fiction, OTOH, is just the old romance novel with
> a supernatural twist.
Not always. For an obvious example, look at Hambly's
vampire novels. Robin McKinley's _Sunshine_ is another
counterexample: it's more of an alien contact story than a
romance. More recently, that description doesn't really fit
Karen Chance's vampire novels at all well. It doesn't even
fit most of Jeaniene Frost's Night Huntress books: the major
romantic pairing is well-established by now. I'm sure that
there are quite a few more exceptions; these are just the
first that occur to me.
Brian
<lar...@peaksky.com> wrote in
<news:MPG.2930360f8...@news.aioe.org> in
rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh,rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> Vampire fiction, OTOH, is just the old romance novel with
> a supernatural twist.
vampire novels. Robin McKinley's _Sunshine_ is another
counterexample: it's more of an alien contact story than a
romance. More recently, that description doesn't really fit
Karen Chance's vampire novels at all well. It doesn't even
fit most of Jeaniene Frost's Night Huntress books: the major
romantic pairing is well-established by now. I'm sure that
there are quite a few more exceptions; these are just the
first that occur to me.
Brian
Robert Bannister
Nov 18, 2011, 5:37:52 PM11/18/11
to
> Again, terraforming Venus and Mars doesn't require readica changes in the
> laws of physics, just long term and resource-expensive engineering projects
> (likely to take a couple of hundred years for either planet, maybe more).
stuck with them because with present knowledge we can't get much
farther. I like the way you have given thought to how we could terraform
these two planets - it's only pity we don't seem to be able to apply a
couple of these techniques to Earth itself.
--
Robert Bannister
Wayne Throop
Nov 18, 2011, 5:39:12 PM11/18/11
to
:: Vampire fiction, OTOH, is just the old romance novel with a
:: supernatural twist.
: "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu>
: Not always. For an obvious example, look at Hambly's vampire novels.
same setting there are also lots of side-stories about all of Bones'
aquaintances getting the girl; so far, one each about Menchares,
Spade, Chance, and Elise. finding True Love.
:: supernatural twist.
: "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu>
: Not always. For an obvious example, look at Hambly's vampire novels.
: Robin McKinley's _Sunshine_ is another counterexample: it's more of an
: alien contact story than a romance. More recently, that description
: doesn't really fit Karen Chance's vampire novels at all well. It
: doesn't even fit most of Jeaniene Frost's Night Huntress books: the
: major romantic pairing is well-established by now. I'm sure that
: there are quite a few more exceptions; these are just the first that
: occur to me.
Well... maybe in the main series of Night Huntress books. But in that
: alien contact story than a romance. More recently, that description
: doesn't really fit Karen Chance's vampire novels at all well. It
: doesn't even fit most of Jeaniene Frost's Night Huntress books: the
: major romantic pairing is well-established by now. I'm sure that
: there are quite a few more exceptions; these are just the first that
: occur to me.
same setting there are also lots of side-stories about all of Bones'
aquaintances getting the girl; so far, one each about Menchares,
Spade, Chance, and Elise. finding True Love.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Nov 18, 2011, 7:15:49 PM11/18/11
to
Sookie is borderline, but Harrison, Lewis and Elrod not at all really.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Howard Brazee
Nov 18, 2011, 10:04:43 PM11/18/11
to
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:32:08 -0800, Larry <lar...@peaksky.com> wrote:
>The readership has also become more discerning. When I read 50 year old SF
>(from my teen years) I am astonished at how many stories involve outright
>violation of natural law, like inventing or discovering de facto perpetual
>motion. Leinster's _The Wailing Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet
>with a car battery, or Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind.
>None of those would make it past an editor today.
Sure they would. In fact there still are SF novels with psi powers
>The readership has also become more discerning. When I read 50 year old SF
>(from my teen years) I am astonished at how many stories involve outright
>violation of natural law, like inventing or discovering de facto perpetual
>motion. Leinster's _The Wailing Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet
>with a car battery, or Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind.
>None of those would make it past an editor today.
(even a series written by a physicist).
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Howard Brazee
Nov 18, 2011, 10:08:04 PM11/18/11
to
requiring FTL.
What seems like a bigger change is losing the huge plot assistant of
people who aren't always connected. The other day they arrested
people who were directing illegal immigrants with cell phones. If
poor migrants use such ubiquitous information now - think about the
future.
Brian M. Scott
Nov 18, 2011, 10:16:19 PM11/18/11
to
On Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:04:43 -0700, Howard Brazee
<how...@brazee.net> wrote in
<news:337ec7tjes3s2eqv2...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh,rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> In fact there still are SF novels with psi powers (even a
> series written by a physicist).
Thinking of Asaro?
Brian
<how...@brazee.net> wrote in
<news:337ec7tjes3s2eqv2...@4ax.com> in
rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh,rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> In fact there still are SF novels with psi powers (even a
> series written by a physicist).
Brian
Wayne Throop
Nov 18, 2011, 10:51:05 PM11/18/11
to
:: The readership has also become more discerning. When I read 50 year
:: old SF (from my teen years) I am astonished at how many stories
:: involve outright violation of natural law, like inventing or
:: discovering de facto perpetual motion. Leinster's _The Wailing
:: Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet with a car battery, or
:: Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind. None of those
:: would make it past an editor today.
: Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net>
:: old SF (from my teen years) I am astonished at how many stories
:: involve outright violation of natural law, like inventing or
:: discovering de facto perpetual motion. Leinster's _The Wailing
:: Asteroid_, Godwin's guys who move a planet with a car battery, or
:: Niven's Slaver digging tool come immediately to mind. None of those
:: would make it past an editor today.
: Sure they would. In fact there still are SF novels with psi powers
: (even a series written by a physicist).
David Weber is practically a catalog of old-SF-style physical law
violations all by himself. In the Harringtonverse alone, the spacedrives
violate newton, and produce more kinetic energy than they consume
in fuel, treecats are telepathic, and can perceive "mind glows"
cross species... and can teach humans how to do it also.
And then you've got the Path of the Fury, and so on and on.
For some odd reason, it all gets right past the editors.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Nov 19, 2011, 9:00:01 AM11/19/11
to
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Kip Williams
Nov 19, 2011, 9:33:51 AM11/19/11
to
Kip W
rasfw
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Nov 19, 2011, 9:37:51 AM11/19/11
to
In article <ja8cp1$ccd$1...@dont-email.me>,
Yep. It never even occured to me to have a problem with his science.
_On Basilisk Station_ remains a great book regardless of whether it is
impossible or not.
_On Basilisk Station_ remains a great book regardless of whether it is
impossible or not.
Howard Brazee
Nov 19, 2011, 9:35:29 AM11/19/11
to
Wayne Throop
Nov 19, 2011, 10:34:27 AM11/19/11
to
:::: None of those would make it past an editor today.
:: David Weber is practically a catalog of old-SF-style physical law
: Because it SELLS, and to many people it's fun.
Precactly.
:: David Weber is practically a catalog of old-SF-style physical law
:: violations all by himself. In the Harringtonverse alone, the
:: spacedrives violate newton, and produce more kinetic energy than they
:: consume in fuel, treecats are telepathic, and can perceive "mind
:: glows" cross species... and can teach humans how to do it also. And
:: then you've got the Path of the Fury, and so on and on.
::
:: For some odd reason, it all gets right past the editors.
: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com>
:: spacedrives violate newton, and produce more kinetic energy than they
:: consume in fuel, treecats are telepathic, and can perceive "mind
:: glows" cross species... and can teach humans how to do it also. And
:: then you've got the Path of the Fury, and so on and on.
::
:: For some odd reason, it all gets right past the editors.
: Because it SELLS, and to many people it's fun.
Precactly.
Wayne Throop
Nov 19, 2011, 10:38:40 AM11/19/11
to
::: David Weber is practically a catalog of old-SF-style physical law
::: violations all by himself. [...]
::: For some odd reason, it all gets right past the editors.
:: Because it SELLS, and to many people it's fun.
: t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
: Yep. It never even occured to me to have a problem with his science.
science. But I rarely carry it through and actually *have* a problem.
Even if I point out science ... infelicities in a story, I wouldn't
normally say they were a *problem* as such. On the other hand, it had
never really occurred to me to expect an editor to enforce scientific
orthodoxy of any sort.
::: violations all by himself. [...]
::: For some odd reason, it all gets right past the editors.
:: Because it SELLS, and to many people it's fun.
: Yep. It never even occured to me to have a problem with his science.
: _On Basilisk Station_ remains a great book regardless of whether it is
: impossible or not.
Well... I admit it often *occurs* to me to have a problem with the
: impossible or not.
science. But I rarely carry it through and actually *have* a problem.
Even if I point out science ... infelicities in a story, I wouldn't
normally say they were a *problem* as such. On the other hand, it had
never really occurred to me to expect an editor to enforce scientific
orthodoxy of any sort.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Nov 19, 2011, 11:25:26 AM11/19/11
to
anthology billed as hard-sf stories. Then I WOULD expect the editor to
look for such things.
Brian M. Scott
Nov 19, 2011, 11:44:15 AM11/19/11
to
On Sat, 19 Nov 2011 03:51:05 GMT, Wayne Throop
<thr...@sheol.org> wrote in <news:13216...@sheol.org> in
rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh,rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> David Weber is practically a catalog of old-SF-style
> physical law violations all by himself. In the
> Harringtonverse alone, the spacedrives violate newton,
> and produce more kinetic energy than they consume in
> fuel, treecats are telepathic, and can perceive "mind
> glows" cross species...
If you're going to have it at all, the cross-species
perception doesn't seem especially unreasonable.
> and can teach humans how to do it also.
There's no real evidence for that. Rather, the potential
seems to be present, at least weakly, in some human genetic
configurations and capable of being stimulated by contact
with treecats. Honor is apparently the first to have it in
sufficient degree for the stimulation to produce spectacular
results -- the Kimball Kinnison of the Harrington line, if
you will.
[...]
Brian
<thr...@sheol.org> wrote in <news:13216...@sheol.org> in
rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh,rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.sf.written:
[...]
> David Weber is practically a catalog of old-SF-style
> physical law violations all by himself. In the
> Harringtonverse alone, the spacedrives violate newton,
> and produce more kinetic energy than they consume in
> fuel, treecats are telepathic, and can perceive "mind
> glows" cross species...
perception doesn't seem especially unreasonable.
> and can teach humans how to do it also.
seems to be present, at least weakly, in some human genetic
configurations and capable of being stimulated by contact
with treecats. Honor is apparently the first to have it in
sufficient degree for the stimulation to produce spectacular
results -- the Kimball Kinnison of the Harrington line, if
you will.
[...]
Brian
Wayne Throop
Nov 19, 2011, 12:02:34 PM11/19/11
to
:: treecats are telepathic, and can perceive "mind glows" cross
:: species...
: "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu>
: If you're going to have it at all, the cross-species perception
Within a species, it could be something as mundane as the Tines' hive
minds. And if the ability arose in a precursor species, extending it
across all reasonably closely related species (such as hexapumas) wouldn't
be remarkable (another Vinge xref would be Witling). But extending it
to humans is at least a couple steps further from reasonable imo.
:: and can teach humans how to do it also.
: There's no real evidence for that. Rather, the potential seems to be
: present, at least weakly, in some human genetic configurations and
: capable of being stimulated by contact with treecats. Honor is
: apparently the first to have it in sufficient degree for the
: stimulation to produce spectacular results -- the Kimball Kinnison of
: the Harrington line, if you will.
That there needs to be some genetic predisposition doesn't really
change the implausibility. That the genemods just *happened* to provide
for an ability compatible with the treecat's evolved abilities is not
really credible. Also, iirc not *all* treecat bondings are with genies,
and the bond is based on an unusualy strong "mind glow", so I'd call
that "real evidence" that humans have the raw ability (though granted,
not conclusive).
Also there's something uncomfortable about counting Honor
as "non-human", even if only for purposes of catgegorizing telepaths.
But maybe you meant she wasn't *taught*, what with it being innate
and all? Hm.
On balance, you make a good point, but it's still one step of oddness
to have treecats able to even perceive human mindglows, and another step
further oddwise to have humans able to perceive back. That is,
a sensory mechanism being there is more of a stretch than there
being something there to perceive.
Though clearly, not odd enough to make the stories unenjoyable or
prohibitively irritating.
:: species...
: "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu>
: If you're going to have it at all, the cross-species perception
: doesn't seem especially unreasonable.
In independently evolved nervous systems, not really all that reasonable.
Within a species, it could be something as mundane as the Tines' hive
minds. And if the ability arose in a precursor species, extending it
across all reasonably closely related species (such as hexapumas) wouldn't
be remarkable (another Vinge xref would be Witling). But extending it
to humans is at least a couple steps further from reasonable imo.
:: and can teach humans how to do it also.
: There's no real evidence for that. Rather, the potential seems to be
: present, at least weakly, in some human genetic configurations and
: capable of being stimulated by contact with treecats. Honor is
: apparently the first to have it in sufficient degree for the
: stimulation to produce spectacular results -- the Kimball Kinnison of
: the Harrington line, if you will.
change the implausibility. That the genemods just *happened* to provide
for an ability compatible with the treecat's evolved abilities is not
really credible. Also, iirc not *all* treecat bondings are with genies,
and the bond is based on an unusualy strong "mind glow", so I'd call
that "real evidence" that humans have the raw ability (though granted,
not conclusive).
Also there's something uncomfortable about counting Honor
as "non-human", even if only for purposes of catgegorizing telepaths.
But maybe you meant she wasn't *taught*, what with it being innate
and all? Hm.
On balance, you make a good point, but it's still one step of oddness
to have treecats able to even perceive human mindglows, and another step
further oddwise to have humans able to perceive back. That is,
a sensory mechanism being there is more of a stretch than there
being something there to perceive.
Though clearly, not odd enough to make the stories unenjoyable or
prohibitively irritating.
Wayne Throop
Nov 19, 2011, 12:27:45 PM11/19/11
to
:: On the other hand, it had never really occurred to me to expect an
: Unless there was some requirement for it -- as in an editor for an
merits, rather than one shopping for a specific theme or whatnot.
:: editor to enforce scientific orthodoxy of any sort.
: "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)" <sea...@sgeinc.invalid.com>
: Unless there was some requirement for it -- as in an editor for an
: anthology billed as hard-sf stories. Then I WOULD expect the editor
: to look for such things.
True. Though I was thinking of editor of an individual work on its own
: to look for such things.
merits, rather than one shopping for a specific theme or whatnot.
Brian M. Scott
Nov 19, 2011, 12:58:35 PM11/19/11
to
On Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:02:34 GMT, Wayne Throop
<thr...@sheol.org> wrote in <news:13217...@sheol.org> in
rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh,rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.sf.written:
>:: treecats are telepathic, and can perceive "mind glows" cross
>:: species...
>: "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu>
[...]
>:: and can teach humans how to do it also.
>: There's no real evidence for that. Rather, the potential seems to be
>: present, at least weakly, in some human genetic configurations and
>: capable of being stimulated by contact with treecats. Honor is
>: apparently the first to have it in sufficient degree for the
>: stimulation to produce spectacular results -- the Kimball Kinnison of
>: the Harrington line, if you will.
> That there needs to be some genetic predisposition doesn't
> really change the implausibility.
I wasn't addressing the question of plausibility; I was
objecting to the claim that they could teach humans to do
it.
> That the genemods just *happened* to provide for an
> ability compatible with the treecat's evolved abilities
> is not really credible. Also, iirc not *all* treecat
> bondings are with genies, and the bond is based on an
> unusualy strong "mind glow", so I'd call that "real
> evidence" that humans have the raw ability (though
> granted, not conclusive).
I took it for granted that the potential was present in some
unmodified human stock and not strictly a product of genetic
modification; if I remember correctly, Scott MacDallan's
unusual sensitivity to Fisher and other treecats was
attributed to his descent from generations of Scottish
'sensitives'.
> Also there's something uncomfortable about counting Honor
> as "non-human", even if only for purposes of
> catgegorizing telepaths. But maybe you meant she wasn't
> *taught*, what with it being innate and all? Hm.
Exactly.
[...]
Brian
<thr...@sheol.org> wrote in <news:13217...@sheol.org> in
rec.arts.comics.dc.lsh,rec.arts.sf.tv,rec.arts.sf.written:
>:: treecats are telepathic, and can perceive "mind glows" cross
>:: species...
>: "Brian M. Scott" <b.s...@csuohio.edu>
>:: and can teach humans how to do it also.
>: There's no real evidence for that. Rather, the potential seems to be
>: present, at least weakly, in some human genetic configurations and
>: capable of being stimulated by contact with treecats. Honor is
>: apparently the first to have it in sufficient degree for the
>: stimulation to produce spectacular results -- the Kimball Kinnison of
>: the Harrington line, if you will.
> That there needs to be some genetic predisposition doesn't
> really change the implausibility.
objecting to the claim that they could teach humans to do
it.
> That the genemods just *happened* to provide for an
> ability compatible with the treecat's evolved abilities
> is not really credible. Also, iirc not *all* treecat
> bondings are with genies, and the bond is based on an
> unusualy strong "mind glow", so I'd call that "real
> evidence" that humans have the raw ability (though
> granted, not conclusive).
unmodified human stock and not strictly a product of genetic
modification; if I remember correctly, Scott MacDallan's
unusual sensitivity to Fisher and other treecats was
attributed to his descent from generations of Scottish
'sensitives'.
> Also there's something uncomfortable about counting Honor
> as "non-human", even if only for purposes of
> catgegorizing telepaths. But maybe you meant she wasn't
> *taught*, what with it being innate and all? Hm.
[...]
Brian
David Dyer-Bennet
Nov 19, 2011, 1:20:59 PM11/19/11
to
them back in and ignore the consequences for his universe. SF is "what
if", and that's only fun if you play fair. He seems to me to play
reasonably fair.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
Larry
Nov 19, 2011, 4:56:53 PM11/19/11
to
In article <337ec7tjes3s2eqv2...@4ax.com>, how...@brazee.net
says...
> Sure they would. In fact there still are SF novels with psi powers
> (even a series written by a physicist).
I have found it interesting that "radio in their head" ESP stories have
fallen by the wayside now that everyone has cell phones. Once it was a common
fantasy always to be able to contact others at need. Nowadays, anyone with a
Verizon contract can do that trick.
says...
> Sure they would. In fact there still are SF novels with psi powers
> (even a series written by a physicist).
fallen by the wayside now that everyone has cell phones. Once it was a common
fantasy always to be able to contact others at need. Nowadays, anyone with a
Verizon contract can do that trick.
Robert Bannister
Nov 19, 2011, 6:44:29 PM11/19/11
to
people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
real names.
Pure fantasy frequently has men with pointy hats, various mythical
creatures like elves, fairies, demons, angels, including some
unpronounceable ones from other countries, and if I read another story
containing a půca, I shall go mad. Both usually include scantily dressed
women, at least on the cover, but fantasy is more likely to have a
strong female lead character.
There are many stories that don't fit either genre very well.
I enjoy the old-fashioned type of science fiction - I particularly like
the well-worn "tramp ship" plot - man up to his ears in debt pilots
battered space ship between the stars, sometimes helped by one or two
faithful companions. Despite the complex star-drive, he or his crew can
usually make running repairs at any time (reminds me of the days when
you could fix your car with bits of fencing wire and pantihose) and he
is able not only to make a living trading unlikely cargoes from one star
system to another, but he is also able to outwit large corporations.
I love this kind of fantasy. I doubt there was ever a time on Earth when
such things were really possible despite Conrad and others, but since it
is certainly not now, it is nice to transfer it into space. "Space" is
of course another word for "Fairyland", but more masculine.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Nov 19, 2011, 6:52:53 PM11/19/11
to
but stick to them and no deus ex cathedra or ex pile or whatever.
--
Robert Bannister
Wayne Throop
Nov 19, 2011, 6:50:37 PM11/19/11
to
: Larry <lar...@peaksky.com>
: I have found it interesting that "radio in their head" ESP stories
The thing Verizon can't provide is undetectability of the signal.
Well, plus 3-D visual aids. Yet, anyways.
Also has the "anything human ESPers can do, cyborgs cqn do better"
trope, at least to a certain extent.
Vinge does somewhat similat things in Rainbows End, and
A Deepness in the Sky, with either implants or nearly-implants
(eg, contact lenses) providing immersive mixed virtual reality.
: I have found it interesting that "radio in their head" ESP stories
: have fallen by the wayside now that everyone has cell phones. Once it
: was a common fantasy always to be able to contact others at need.
: Nowadays, anyone with a Verizon contract can do that trick.
A Girl and Her Fed has the implanted-chip telepathy trope.
: was a common fantasy always to be able to contact others at need.
: Nowadays, anyone with a Verizon contract can do that trick.
The thing Verizon can't provide is undetectability of the signal.
Well, plus 3-D visual aids. Yet, anyways.
Also has the "anything human ESPers can do, cyborgs cqn do better"
trope, at least to a certain extent.
Vinge does somewhat similat things in Rainbows End, and
A Deepness in the Sky, with either implants or nearly-implants
(eg, contact lenses) providing immersive mixed virtual reality.
Duggy
Nov 20, 2011, 6:33:48 AM11/20/11
to
On Nov 20, 9:44 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
> people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
> type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
> story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
> real names.
It's a line that some people don't like to cross. People different
> My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
> people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
> type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
> story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
> real names.
likes.
I usually don't like Magic Realism because it mixes "reality" with
"fantasy".
===
= DUG.
===
Howard Brazee
Nov 20, 2011, 5:57:41 PM11/20/11
to
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 07:44:29 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
>people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
>type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
>story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
>real names.
IMHO, a major reason Science Fiction is less popular relative to
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
>people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
>type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
>story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
>real names.
fantasy than it used to be is that we have stopped believing in the
Science Fiction which used to be plausible.
Adam H. Kerman
Nov 20, 2011, 6:47:03 PM11/20/11
to
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
>>people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
>>type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
>>story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
>>real names.
>IMHO, a major reason Science Fiction is less popular relative to
>fantasy than it used to be is that we have stopped believing in the
>Science Fiction which used to be plausible.
Then the genre will have to save itself by creating teenage-appearing
>Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
>>people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
>>type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
>>story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
>>real names.
>IMHO, a major reason Science Fiction is less popular relative to
>fantasy than it used to be is that we have stopped believing in the
>Science Fiction which used to be plausible.
angsty vampires making all sorts of scientific discoveries and creating
new industrial processes.
Duggy
Nov 20, 2011, 7:35:35 PM11/20/11
to
On Nov 21, 8:57 am, Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 07:44:29 +0800, Robert Bannister
>
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 07:44:29 +0800, Robert Bannister
>
> <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
> >people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
> >type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
> >story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
> >real names.
>
> IMHO, a major reason Science Fiction is less popular relative to
> fantasy than it used to be is that we have stopped believing in the
> Science Fiction which used to be plausible.
The popular SF seem to be the ones that are less plausible
> >My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
> >people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
> >type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
> >story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
> >real names.
>
> IMHO, a major reason Science Fiction is less popular relative to
> fantasy than it used to be is that we have stopped believing in the
> Science Fiction which used to be plausible.
(Transformers).
===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
Nov 20, 2011, 7:45:39 PM11/20/11
to
On Nov 21, 9:47 am, "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
> Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
===
= DUG.
===
David Dyer-Bennet
Nov 21, 2011, 10:50:48 AM11/21/11
to
tell a consistent story where the available solutions aren't complete
surprises to the reader, or they get annoyed and shut the book.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Nov 21, 2011, 1:34:39 PM11/21/11
to
In article <ylfk7h2t...@dd-b.net>,
from the 20s or 30s I'd guess. It had a kind of "anything goes" dream-logic
to it that was charming, but also exhausting after a while. I think
that sort of thing works best in small doses.
David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
>
>> On 20/11/11 2:20 AM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>>> What he tends NOT to do is pull rabbits out of his hat -- and then stuff
>>> them back in and ignore the consequences for his universe. SF is "what
>>> if", and that's only fun if you play fair. He seems to me to play
>>> reasonably fair.
>>
>> And that is what I said about fantasy: let the author make the rules,
>> but stick to them and no deus ex cathedra or ex pile or whatever.
>
>Yes, exactly. "Anything" doesn't actually "go" in fantasy; you have to
>tell a consistent story where the available solutions aren't complete
>surprises to the reader, or they get annoyed and shut the book.
>
My sister was reading an old "Raggedy Ann & Andy" book to my neice recently,
>Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
>
>> On 20/11/11 2:20 AM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
>>> What he tends NOT to do is pull rabbits out of his hat -- and then stuff
>>> them back in and ignore the consequences for his universe. SF is "what
>>> if", and that's only fun if you play fair. He seems to me to play
>>> reasonably fair.
>>
>> And that is what I said about fantasy: let the author make the rules,
>> but stick to them and no deus ex cathedra or ex pile or whatever.
>
>Yes, exactly. "Anything" doesn't actually "go" in fantasy; you have to
>tell a consistent story where the available solutions aren't complete
>surprises to the reader, or they get annoyed and shut the book.
>
from the 20s or 30s I'd guess. It had a kind of "anything goes" dream-logic
to it that was charming, but also exhausting after a while. I think
that sort of thing works best in small doses.
Kip Williams
Nov 21, 2011, 3:35:20 PM11/21/11
to
Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article<ylfk7h2t...@dd-b.net>,
> David Dyer-Bennet<dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>> Robert Bannister<rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 20/11/11 2:20 AM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>
>>>> What he tends NOT to do is pull rabbits out of his hat -- and then stuff
>>>> them back in and ignore the consequences for his universe. SF is "what
>>>> if", and that's only fun if you play fair. He seems to me to play
>>>> reasonably fair.
>>>
>>> And that is what I said about fantasy: let the author make the rules,
>>> but stick to them and no deus ex cathedra or ex pile or whatever.
>>
>> Yes, exactly. "Anything" doesn't actually "go" in fantasy; you have to
>> tell a consistent story where the available solutions aren't complete
>> surprises to the reader, or they get annoyed and shut the book.
>
> My sister was reading an old "Raggedy Ann& Andy" book to my neice recently,
> In article<ylfk7h2t...@dd-b.net>,
> David Dyer-Bennet<dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>> Robert Bannister<rob...@bigpond.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 20/11/11 2:20 AM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>
>>>> What he tends NOT to do is pull rabbits out of his hat -- and then stuff
>>>> them back in and ignore the consequences for his universe. SF is "what
>>>> if", and that's only fun if you play fair. He seems to me to play
>>>> reasonably fair.
>>>
>>> And that is what I said about fantasy: let the author make the rules,
>>> but stick to them and no deus ex cathedra or ex pile or whatever.
>>
>> Yes, exactly. "Anything" doesn't actually "go" in fantasy; you have to
>> tell a consistent story where the available solutions aren't complete
>> surprises to the reader, or they get annoyed and shut the book.
>
> from the 20s or 30s I'd guess. It had a kind of "anything goes" dream-logic
> to it that was charming, but also exhausting after a while. I think
> that sort of thing works best in small doses.
This was my objection to the acclaimed children's comics by George
> to it that was charming, but also exhausting after a while. I think
> that sort of thing works best in small doses.
Carlson ("Jingle Jangle Comics"). After a while it's like a trip that
just won't end. It just wasn't for me.
Kip W
rasfw
Robert Bannister
Nov 21, 2011, 5:21:26 PM11/21/11
to
On 21/11/11 6:57 AM, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 07:44:29 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
>> people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
>> type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
>> story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
>> real names.
>
> IMHO, a major reason Science Fiction is less popular relative to
> fantasy than it used to be is that we have stopped believing in the
> Science Fiction which used to be plausible.
>
>
Alas. Only too true. Moreover, those bits that probably are true, most
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 07:44:29 +0800, Robert Bannister
> <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>> My feelings exactly, which is why I get so puzzled by anti-fantasy
>> people. Nearly all science fiction is fantasy; it is just a specific
>> type of fantasy combining the elements of the steamship story, car chase
>> story and cowboy shoot-out, but in imaginary places that sometimes have
>> real names.
>
> IMHO, a major reason Science Fiction is less popular relative to
> fantasy than it used to be is that we have stopped believing in the
> Science Fiction which used to be plausible.
>
>
of us can't understand.
--
Robert Bannister
Howard Brazee
Nov 21, 2011, 5:18:15 PM11/21/11
to
On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:50:48 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
wrote:
>> And that is what I said about fantasy: let the author make the rules,
>> but stick to them and no deus ex cathedra or ex pile or whatever.
>
>Yes, exactly. "Anything" doesn't actually "go" in fantasy; you have to
>tell a consistent story where the available solutions aren't complete
>surprises to the reader, or they get annoyed and shut the book.
You either have to define the rules or use some rules that make sense
according to rules/stories that exist in our popular culture.
wrote:
>> And that is what I said about fantasy: let the author make the rules,
>> but stick to them and no deus ex cathedra or ex pile or whatever.
>
>Yes, exactly. "Anything" doesn't actually "go" in fantasy; you have to
>tell a consistent story where the available solutions aren't complete
>surprises to the reader, or they get annoyed and shut the book.
according to rules/stories that exist in our popular culture.
David Dyer-Bennet
Nov 21, 2011, 5:53:33 PM11/21/11
to
Howard Brazee <how...@brazee.net> writes:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:50:48 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> And that is what I said about fantasy: let the author make the rules,
>>> but stick to them and no deus ex cathedra or ex pile or whatever.
>>
>>Yes, exactly. "Anything" doesn't actually "go" in fantasy; you have to
>>tell a consistent story where the available solutions aren't complete
>>surprises to the reader, or they get annoyed and shut the book.
>
> You either have to define the rules or use some rules that make sense
> according to rules/stories that exist in our popular culture.
And you have to give the readers some reason to believe there are rules
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:50:48 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
> wrote:
>
>>> And that is what I said about fantasy: let the author make the rules,
>>> but stick to them and no deus ex cathedra or ex pile or whatever.
>>
>>Yes, exactly. "Anything" doesn't actually "go" in fantasy; you have to
>>tell a consistent story where the available solutions aren't complete
>>surprises to the reader, or they get annoyed and shut the book.
>
> You either have to define the rules or use some rules that make sense
> according to rules/stories that exist in our popular culture.
THERE (you don't have to explicate them in detail, though, if you're
good).
William December Starr
Nov 22, 2011, 2:50:19 PM11/22/11
to
In article <3e6ff5a1-b4eb-4c84...@z22g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
'magic realism' that more than four other human beings have ever
agreed with?
:-)
-- wds
Duggy <Paul....@jcu.edu.au> said:
> I usually don't like Magic Realism because it mixes "reality" with
> "fantasy".
As opposed to because no human being has ever given a definition of
> I usually don't like Magic Realism because it mixes "reality" with
> "fantasy".
'magic realism' that more than four other human beings have ever
agreed with?
:-)
-- wds
Kip Williams
Nov 22, 2011, 3:45:46 PM11/22/11
to
His paintings are magic realism. I'm glad to hear of a new museum in
Little Rock having some of his stuff, though. If I ever get to the
neighborhood, well.
Kip W
rasfw
Quadibloc
Nov 22, 2011, 6:00:55 PM11/22/11
to
On Nov 22, 1:45 pm, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> TIME irked me in a recent issue by calling George Tooker a surrealist.
> His paintings are magic realism.
Yes; as a genre of painting, I thought that "magic realism" was well
> TIME irked me in a recent issue by calling George Tooker a surrealist.
> His paintings are magic realism.
defined. Since it isn't a literary genre, I wouldn't be surprised that
there's no agreed-upon definition for the literary genre magic
realism.
Not that this was necessarily the source of the situation mentioned
above, but I had to wonder if it could be.
John Savard
Michael Stemper
Nov 29, 2011, 8:59:34 AM11/29/11
to
her, his very first step was to use a Nevian P-gun on her. By the time
that the paralysis wore off, she was tied up in the presence of him and
his two goons. She never had a chance to grab a phone, or even push a
magical panic-button on it. All that she could do was hope that someone
would telepathically get in touch with her.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
This message contains at least 95% recycled bytes.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Nov 29, 2011, 9:48:23 AM11/29/11
to
On 11/29/11 8:59 AM, Michael Stemper wrote:
> In article<MPG.29316395e...@news.aioe.org>, Larry<lar...@peaksky.com> writes:
>> In article<337ec7tjes3s2eqv2...@4ax.com>, how...@brazee.net says...
>
>>> Sure they would. In fact there still are SF novels with psi powers
>>> (even a series written by a physicist).
>>
>> I have found it interesting that "radio in their head" ESP stories have
>> fallen by the wayside now that everyone has cell phones. Once it was a common
>> fantasy always to be able to contact others at need. Nowadays, anyone with a
>> Verizon contract can do that trick.
>
> Virgilia Samms comes to mind as a counter-example
There's LOTS of counter-examples. Any situation in which you need to
> In article<MPG.29316395e...@news.aioe.org>, Larry<lar...@peaksky.com> writes:
>> In article<337ec7tjes3s2eqv2...@4ax.com>, how...@brazee.net says...
>
>>> Sure they would. In fact there still are SF novels with psi powers
>>> (even a series written by a physicist).
>>
>> I have found it interesting that "radio in their head" ESP stories have
>> fallen by the wayside now that everyone has cell phones. Once it was a common
>> fantasy always to be able to contact others at need. Nowadays, anyone with a
>> Verizon contract can do that trick.
>
> Virgilia Samms comes to mind as a counter-example
make contact with someone (A) against their will, (B) without other
people being able to notice you making the contact, or (C) after you've
been captured or otherwise relieved of any gadgetry. Having
radio-in-my-head telepathy would be VASTLY better than a cell phone in
many ways (worse in others, if EVERYONE had it and not just me and a
select few others, unless I could do the phone equivalent of turning it
off).
Quadibloc
Nov 29, 2011, 12:18:53 PM11/29/11
to
On Nov 29, 6:59 am, mstem...@walkabout.empros.com (Michael Stemper)
wrote:
A while back, I had been toying with the idea of writing a novel. The
premise is a bit like that of The Return by Ben Bova - which I
recently read, *after* doing this - but much of the details are
different.
My attempts were horribly badly written. At one point, despite the
flashlight having been invented, I was planning on a dramatic scene.
The astronaut returning to Earth - and winding up in an alternate
timeline because dropping out of FTL got him where the speed of light
differed in some late decimal place - is walking through a cave with
an Earth woman belonging to an artificially enhanced human race with
giant brains.
She has a few other enhancements, thrown in for the heck of it. Six
types of cones in her eyes. Voluntary bioluminesence.
Well, he manages to lose the flashlight that was part of the emergency
pack in his spaceship. Her face and arms glow, as she attempts to
demonstrate that this is no problem.
However, the light is so dim that they still can't see well enough to
avoid stepping into pits and the like. "You can't glow more
brightly?", the astronaut asks. She thinks for a moment, and then
shuts off her luminescence. A few minutes later, she hands the
astronaut a bundle and asks him to hold it for her.
I'm sure I don't need to explain what solution she found for the
problem - just that it is the sort of thing that helps books to sell
better.
John Savard
wrote:
> By the time
> that the paralysis wore off, she was tied up in the presence of him and
> his two goons. She never had a chance to grab a phone, or even push a
> magical panic-button on it.
This reminds me.
> that the paralysis wore off, she was tied up in the presence of him and
> his two goons. She never had a chance to grab a phone, or even push a
> magical panic-button on it.
A while back, I had been toying with the idea of writing a novel. The
premise is a bit like that of The Return by Ben Bova - which I
recently read, *after* doing this - but much of the details are
different.
My attempts were horribly badly written. At one point, despite the
flashlight having been invented, I was planning on a dramatic scene.
The astronaut returning to Earth - and winding up in an alternate
timeline because dropping out of FTL got him where the speed of light
differed in some late decimal place - is walking through a cave with
an Earth woman belonging to an artificially enhanced human race with
giant brains.
She has a few other enhancements, thrown in for the heck of it. Six
types of cones in her eyes. Voluntary bioluminesence.
Well, he manages to lose the flashlight that was part of the emergency
pack in his spaceship. Her face and arms glow, as she attempts to
demonstrate that this is no problem.
However, the light is so dim that they still can't see well enough to
avoid stepping into pits and the like. "You can't glow more
brightly?", the astronaut asks. She thinks for a moment, and then
shuts off her luminescence. A few minutes later, she hands the
astronaut a bundle and asks him to hold it for her.
I'm sure I don't need to explain what solution she found for the
problem - just that it is the sort of thing that helps books to sell
better.
John Savard
Robert Bannister
Nov 29, 2011, 7:06:38 PM11/29/11
to
situations where you need it most, you find there's no coverage -
perhaps prison bars block it out or being underground or just panic.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
Nov 29, 2011, 7:08:11 PM11/29/11
to
--
Robert Bannister
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Nov 29, 2011, 6:49:06 PM11/29/11
to
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in
news:9jlafb...@mid.individual.net:
Er, dude, did you _just_ figure that out?
The woman, of course, would be a vat girl.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
news:9jlafb...@mid.individual.net:
The woman, of course, would be a vat girl.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Duggy
Nov 29, 2011, 7:50:23 PM11/29/11
to
On Nov 30, 10:06 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> I wonder if telepathy works like mobile phones in that, in the very
> situations where you need it most, you find there's no coverage -
> perhaps prison bars block it out or being underground or just panic.
I always forget to recharge my telepathy and have that annoying
> I wonder if telepathy works like mobile phones in that, in the very
> situations where you need it most, you find there's no coverage -
> perhaps prison bars block it out or being underground or just panic.
beeping in my head just before the battery runs out. Plus, pre-paid
telepathy means I never have enough credit to seen proper telepathic
messages.
===
= DUG.
===
Howard Brazee
Nov 29, 2011, 10:01:43 PM11/29/11
to
On Wed, 30 Nov 2011 08:06:38 +0800, Robert Bannister
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>I wonder if telepathy works like mobile phones in that, in the very
>situations where you need it most, you find there's no coverage -
>perhaps prison bars block it out or being underground or just panic.
Telepathy works however the writer decides that it works. That's the
<rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>I wonder if telepathy works like mobile phones in that, in the very
>situations where you need it most, you find there's no coverage -
>perhaps prison bars block it out or being underground or just panic.
advantage of it being fictional.
Robert Carnegie
Nov 29, 2011, 10:11:10 PM11/29/11
to
Duggy
Nov 29, 2011, 11:41:18 PM11/29/11
to
telepathic call.
===
= DUG.
===
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