HPL upside down in antarctica in At the Mts of Madness?

[Ken Quirici]

HPL consistently mentions the expedition in the above novel (prob my fav HPL)
as traveling along the East shore of Victoria Land. I found a very nice map of the continent in Wikipedia (article on Antarctica) and it seems clear that Victoria Land has only a West shore. All of HPL's refs to mountains to the west should in fact refer to mountains to the East. If you have the South Pole on top of course and take 'top' to be N then he's right but in reality...

really minor point. I was surprised though because he's usually so accurate.

anybody run into this before? or let me know if I'm the one who's turned around?

Regards,

Ken

PS: HPL of course is H. P. Lovecraft - I hope the informality doesn't trouble anyone

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-06-05, Ken Quirici <kqui...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> HPL consistently mentions the expedition in the above novel (prob my fav HPL)
> as traveling along the East shore of Victoria Land. I found a very nice map
> of the continent in Wikipedia (article on Antarctica) and it seems clear that
> Victoria Land has only a West shore. All of HPL's refs to mountains to the
> west should in fact refer to mountains to the East. If you have the South
> Pole on top of course and take 'top' to be N then he's right but in
> reality...
>
> really minor point. I was surprised though because he's usually so accurate.
>
> anybody run into this before? or let me know if I'm the one who's turned
> around?

It's possible that his expedition, unknowingly, was traversing the southernmost
portion of the globe Oz and its surrounding lands and seas occupy... now
THERE'S a crossover fanfic of body horror AND fridge horror (pun intended,
don't look at me like that, you'd do it too) waiting to be written.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:01:50 AM UTC-7, Ken Quirici wrote:
> HPL consistently mentions the expedition in the above novel (prob my fav HPL)
> as traveling along the East shore of Victoria Land. I found a very nice map
> of the continent in Wikipedia (article on Antarctica) and it seems clear that
> Victoria Land has only a West shore. All of HPL's refs to mountains to the
> west should in fact refer to mountains to the East. If you have the South
> Pole on top of course and take 'top' to be N then he's right but in reality...
>
> really minor point. I was surprised though because he's usually so accurate.
>
> anybody run into this before? or let me know if I'm the one who's turned around?

You mean this map?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctica#/media/File:Antarctica.svg

Notice that the South Pole is above Victoria Land on that map. Rotate it 180 degrees and you will see that VL has only an East coast. If you're aboard a ship just offshore, its mountains are to your West.

> PS: HPL of course is H. P. Lovecraft - I hope the informality doesn't trouble
> anyone

Oh hell, no. He's practically everybody's drinking/smoking/snorting/skin popping (metaphorically, of course) buddy here.


Mark L. Fergerson

[Moriarty]

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 3:01:50 AM UTC+10, Ken Quirici wrote:
> HPL consistently mentions the expedition in the above novel (prob my fav HPL)
> as traveling along the East shore of Victoria Land. I found a very nice map of the continent in Wikipedia (article on Antarctica) and it seems clear that Victoria Land has only a West shore. All of HPL's refs to mountains to the west should in fact refer to mountains to the East. If you have the South Pole on top of course and take 'top' to be N then he's right but in reality...
>
> really minor point. I was surprised though because he's usually so accurate.

I've just consulted my map of Antarctica that goes with the Call of Cthulhu RPG module "Beyond the Mountains of Madness"(1) and Victoria Land isn't even there. It wouldn't matter because, wisely, they didn't bother putting cardinal directions on the map at all.

>
> anybody run into this before? or let me know if I'm the one who's turned around?
>
> Regards,
>
> Ken
>
> PS: HPL of course is H. P. Lovecraft - I hope the informality doesn't trouble anyone

HPL is one of a few authors who you can refer to by initials and just about everyone here will get it and refer to them the same way. Others include REH, JRRT, LWE, MZB and IMB.

(*) It's 1934 and your expedition is tracing the footsteps of HPL's expedition to find out what went wrong. Hijinx ensue.

-Moriarty

[Ahasuerus]

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 5:39:12 PM UTC-4, Moriarty wrote:
> On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 3:01:50 AM UTC+10, Ken Quirici wrote:

[snip]

> > PS: HPL of course is H. P. Lovecraft - I hope the informality
> > doesn't trouble anyone
>
> HPL is one of a few authors who you can refer to by initials and
> just about everyone here will get it and refer to them the same way.
> Others include REH, JRRT, LWE, MZB and IMB.

I am not so sure about "IMB", but RAH and PKD are unlikely to cause
confusion. "LRH" (L. Ron Hubbard) is common in catalogs, but I haven't
seen it used on Usenet in a while. "CAS" (Clark Ashton Smith) may also
be too obscure.

[Moriarty]

I wouldn't have got CAS. And maybe IMB is more obscure than the rest, although it would probably help if I'd written it as I(M)B.

-Moriarty

[Dimensional Traveler]

Make a Sanity Roll.


--
Veni, vidi, snarki.

[Quadibloc]

Yes, RAH - Robert A. Heinlein, and PKD - Philip K. Dick are instantly
recognizable.

MZB - Marion Zimmer Bradley, and of course JRRT - John Richard Reuel Tolkien
are no problem either.

REH - Robert E. Howard ... I had to think about that one.

I don't know if CES - not California Electronics Show, but Clifford E. Simak -
would be easily recognized.

LWE and IMB escape me at the moment, although maybe if I wrack my brain I might
find something.

ACC - Arthur C. Clarke - there's another truly famous name.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 8:33:53 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> LWE and IMB escape me at the moment, although maybe if I wrack my brain I might
> find something.

Google let me find out that IMB is Iain M. Banks - a recent author whose name I
had heard before. And LWE posts in this newsgroup - Lawrence Watt-Evans.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-6, Moriarty wrote:
> It wouldn't matter because, wisely, they didn't bother putting cardinal
> directions on the map at all.

As David DeLaney pointed out, cardinal directions are not needed. If one locates
the South Pole on the map, then North is away from it, and East is clockwise.

In fact, the mistake of the original poster consisted *of* unwisely "putting
cardinal directions on the map" by applying the directions that would be in
effect in the area of the map directly north of the South Pole to the map as a
whole - that is, treating it as if it were a Mercator projection in the normal
aspect.

http://www.quadibloc.com/maps/mapint.htm

John Savard

[William Vetter]

PKD - Philip K. Dick are instantly
> recognizable.
>

I thought it was Polycystic Kidney Disease.

[Greg Goss]

Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>I don't know if CES - not California Electronics Show, but Clifford E. Simak -
>would be easily recognized.

Isn't that "consumer"?

--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

[Quadibloc]

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 11:19:15 PM UTC-6, Greg Goss wrote:

> Isn't that "consumer"?

You're absolutely right. My bad.

John Savard

[Ahasuerus]

Oh, here is another one -- ERB.

[Ahasuerus]

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:33:53 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
[snip]

> I don't know if CES - not California Electronics Show, but
> Clifford E. Simak - would be easily recognized.

Probably not since Simak's middle name was Donald.

[Moriarty]

And his contemporaries HGW and ACD.

-Moriarty

[Brian M. Scott]

On Fri, 5 Jun 2015 15:28:29 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
<blu...@ivillage.com> wrote
in<news:632c1bf7-faec-4d50...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

> On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 8:00:48 AM UTC+10, Ahasuerus
> wrote:

>> On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 5:39:12 PM UTC-4, Moriarty wrote:

[...]

>>> HPL is one of a few authors who you can refer to by
>>> initials and just about everyone here will get it and
>>> refer to them the same way. Others include REH, JRRT,
>>> LWE, MZB and IMB.

>> I am not so sure about "IMB", but RAH and PKD are
>> unlikely to cause confusion. "LRH" (L. Ron Hubbard) is
>> common in catalogs, but I haven't seen it used on
>> Usenet in a while. "CAS" (Clark Ashton Smith) may also
>> be too obscure.

> I wouldn't have got CAS.

I might have to think a little, but in any reasonable
context I’d get it.

> And maybe IMB is more obscure than the rest, although it
> would probably help if I'd written it as I(M)B.

I didn’t get that one. In fact, I wondered whether it was
a typo for LMB. But then the only novel-length Banks that
I’ve read and liked is _The Player of Games_.

How about ABC? Not an especially famous writer, but the
initials always struck me as memorable. (Then there’s
EJMDP, which might be *slightly* clearer as EJMDP18BD. <g>)

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.

[Ken Quirici]

This is the map I was using a reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctica#/media/File:Antarctica.svg

In this map if you sail S towards the pole, which was the direction the ships
in the story are traveling, then Victoria Land is to the right. If you continue
in that direction you hit the 90 degree E line of longitude.
If you go left you end up at 90 degrees W.

Aha. I think everyone's right and that makes me wrong.

The ships traveling south were at about 170E longitude. If you go right you end up at 90E longitude, that means you're traveling WEST.

My bad. Actually my mistake was seeing 90E to the right and thinking aha that's going East. Abominable.

Also I only got JRRT, IMB, and MZB.

[lal_truckee]

On 6/6/15 1:58 PM, Brian M. Scott wrote:

> How about ABC? Not an especially famous writer, but the
> initials always struck me as memorable.

Reminds me of the story about the great physicist George Gamow who
coauthored with his grad student Ralph Alpher a seminal quantum
mechanics paper and spuriously added Hans Bethe's name so that the
authorship would be Alpher, Bethe, Gamow.

The paper is famous and is known as the alphabetical paper for the Greek
a-b-g alphabetical sequence. Bethe apparently thought it was amusing and
accepted in good grace.

[Ahasuerus]

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 4:58:54 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
[snip]

> How about ABC? Not an especially famous writer, but the
> initials always struck me as memorable.

A. Bertram Chandler or Arthur Byron Cover?

[Brian M. Scott]

On Sat, 6 Jun 2015 15:52:17 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
<ahas...@email.com> wrote
in<news:b446944a-fc12-4177...@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

The former. Not one of the greats, but happily enshrined
in memory.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

IMO your mistake was in (apparently) assuming that a compass direction is represented by a linear vector placed anywhere on the map, as long as it aligns with an edge of the map, as in your usual equator-centered map.

On your reference map, East and West are represented as circular vectors centered on the pole. Pick any starting point- if you travel West (as observed from any point on a continuous path), you go in a circle counterclockwise. If you travel East you go clockwise.

> Also I only got JRRT, IMB, and MZB.

I had trouble with ABC which really annoys me; he's one of my favorites.


Mark L. Fergerson

[Ahasuerus]

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 8:10:26 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Jun 2015 15:52:17 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
> <ahas...@email.com> wrote
> in<news:b446944a-fc12-4177...@googlegroups.com>
> in rec.arts.sf.written:
>
> > On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 4:58:54 PM UTC-4, Brian M. Scott wrote:
> > [snip]
>
> >> How about ABC? Not an especially famous writer, but the
> >> initials always struck me as memorable.
>
> > A. Bertram Chandler or Arthur Byron Cover?
>
> The former. Not one of the greats, but happily enshrined
> in memory.

Oddly, I have never thought of him as an "ABC". I blame the period
after the "A".

[David DeLaney]

And nobody submitted GRRM yet?

Dave, IA! IA! Cthulhu fthagn!

[David DeLaney]

On 2015-06-07, nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 2:46:15 PM UTC-7, Ken Quirici wrote:
>> On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:43:56 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> > On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-6, Moriarty wrote:
>> > > It wouldn't matter because, wisely, they didn't bother putting cardinal
>> > > directions on the map at all.
>> >
>> > As David DeLaney pointed out, cardinal directions are not needed.

... well, actually, that wasn't the point of my comment at ALL. And apparently
nobody did get it. Ah well.

>> > In fact, the mistake of the original poster consisted *of* unwisely
>> > "putting
>> > cardinal directions on the map" by applying the directions that would be in
>> > effect in the area of the map directly north of the South Pole to the map
>> > as a whole

>> In this map if you sail S towards the pole, which was the direction the
>> ships in the story are traveling, then Victoria Land is to the right. If you
>> continue in that direction you hit the 90 degree E line of longitude.
>> If you go left you end up at 90 degrees W.
>>
>> Aha. I think everyone's right and that makes me wrong.
>>
>> The ships traveling south were at about 170E longitude. If you go right you
>> end up at 90E longitude, that means you're traveling WEST.
>>
>> My bad. Actually my mistake was seeing 90E to the right and thinking aha
>> that's going East. Abominable.
>
> IMO your mistake was in (apparently) assuming that a compass direction is
> represented by a linear vector placed anywhere on the map, as long as it
> aligns with an edge of the map, as in your usual equator-centered map.

And there's whole FIELDS of higher mathematics concerned with tangent spaces
and with transport of vectors along manifold surfaces that ordinary laymen
never really see... but they have definite consequences in physics for gauge
theories, for instance.

You can't comb a hairy sphere flat, to paraphrase one memorable result -
there's no way to cover a sphere with locally parallel vectors tangent to it.
There has to be at least one 'whorl'. Here, the North and South Poles are where
the otherwise-locally-parallel east-west lines get into serious trouble and
become singular...

(also, riddles about bear colors and explorers)

>> Also I only got JRRT, IMB, and MZB.
>
> I had trouble with ABC which really annoys me; he's one of my favorites.

Did anyone say ERB yet? How about JKR?

Dave, ... LFB? LSMFT?

[Ken Quirici]

yes. I went in a straight line right and found E longitude, went in the other direction and found W longitude. Clearly then to me right was E. But as I indicated, I then upon learning from this thread about my error, went from the
longitude of the ship to the 90 degree E longitude and found that since my E longitude was decreasing I must be going W.

I hadn't quite got to the point of visualizing travel *around* the globe along e.g. parallels; in particular the right-hand rule of thumb - if you stick your right-hand thumb in the SPole then your fingers curl east.

Regards,

Ken Quirici

[art...@yahoo.com]

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 12:14:49 PM UTC-4, Ahasuerus wrote:

> Oh, here is another one -- ERB.

And OSC

[Shawn Wilson]

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:01:50 AM UTC-7, Ken Quirici wrote:

> HPL consistently mentions the expedition in the above novel (prob my fav HPL)
> as traveling along the East shore of Victoria Land. I found a very nice map of the continent in Wikipedia (article on Antarctica) and it seems clear that Victoria Land has only a West shore. All of HPL's refs to mountains to the west should in fact refer to mountains to the East. If you have the South Pole on top of course and take 'top' to be N then he's right but in reality...
>
> really minor point. I was surprised though because he's usually so accurate.

To be fair, Antarctic exploration was in its veryest infancy when Lovecraft was writing.

[Quadibloc]

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 10:15:09 PM UTC-6, David DeLaney wrote:

> And nobody submitted GRRM yet?

George R. R. Martin, and Orson Scott Card were two recent authors I was able to
guess.

Of course, Edgar Rice Burroughs is trivially easy.

John Savard

[Greg Goss]

David DeLaney <davidd...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>On 2015-06-06, Ahasuerus <ahas...@email.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:33:53 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> I don't know if CES - not California Electronics Show, but
>>> Clifford E. Simak - would be easily recognized.
>>
>> Probably not since Simak's middle name was Donald.
>
>And nobody submitted GRRM yet?

GRRM was one of the first ones mentioned.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 9:22:16 PM UTC-7, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2015-06-07, nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 2:46:15 PM UTC-7, Ken Quirici wrote:
> >> On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:43:56 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> > On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-6, Moriarty wrote:
> >> > > It wouldn't matter because, wisely, they didn't bother putting
> >> > > cardinal directions on the map at all.
> >> >
> >> > As David DeLaney pointed out, cardinal directions are not needed.
>
> ... well, actually, that wasn't the point of my comment at ALL. And apparently
> nobody did get it. Ah well.

I got it but Oz never grabbed me the way it does many people (enough that there's a whole universe of it in TNOTB), so I'm not familiar with what's at its south pole. Assuming Oz is spheroidal?

Also, Glinda puts Cthulhu back to sleep. Eventually, after hijinks.

> >> > In fact, the mistake of the original poster consisted *of* unwisely
> >> > "putting cardinal directions on the map" by applying the directions that
> >> > would be in effect in the area of the map directly north of the South
> >> > Pole to the map as a whole
>
> >> In this map if you sail S towards the pole, which was the direction the
> >> ships in the story are traveling, then Victoria Land is to the right. If
> >> you continue in that direction you hit the 90 degree E line of longitude.
> >> If you go left you end up at 90 degrees W.
> >>
> >> Aha. I think everyone's right and that makes me wrong.
> >>
> >> The ships traveling south were at about 170E longitude. If you go right you
> >> end up at 90E longitude, that means you're traveling WEST.
> >>
> >> My bad. Actually my mistake was seeing 90E to the right and thinking aha
> >> that's going East. Abominable.
> >
> > IMO your mistake was in (apparently) assuming that a compass direction is
> > represented by a linear vector placed anywhere on the map, as long as it
> > aligns with an edge of the map, as in your usual equator-centered map.

I should have just said "Which way is East on the Discworld?

> And there's whole FIELDS

I saw what you did there.

> of higher mathematics concerned with tangent spaces
> and with transport of vectors along manifold surfaces that ordinary laymen
> never really see... but they have definite consequences in physics for gauge
> theories, for instance.

As you know, Dave, space itself might be handed:

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz4.htm

A truly unique possible way of breaking General relativity with Lots42 of nice (crosseyed) molecular stereograms.

WARNING: Uncle Al is not for the faint of heart.

> You can't comb a hairy sphere flat, to paraphrase one memorable result -
> there's no way to cover a sphere with locally parallel vectors tangent to it.
> There has to be at least one 'whorl'. Here, the North and South Poles are
> where the otherwise-locally-parallel east-west lines get into serious trouble
> and become singular...

I often wonder how many other species have cowlicks.

> (also, riddles about bear colors and explorers)

The titular "world" of Forward's _Dragon's Egg_ had, IIRC, one East pole and several West poles. Magnetic poles, but still.

Niven's Jinx has East and West poles.

His Ringworld (and his Brennan-monster's little playground) had no polar singularities.

> >> Also I only got JRRT, IMB, and MZB.
> >
> > I had trouble with ABC which really annoys me; he's one of my favorites.
>
> Did anyone say ERB yet? How about JKR?

Yes, and yes.

> Dave, ... LFB? LSMFT?

Hey, I've been watching TV long enough to recognize that last one from B&W cigarette ads!

(Well. I'm balding, but neither little nor wrinkled. So far.)


Mark L. Fergerson

[Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)]

On 6/8/15 3:33 AM, nu...@bid.nes wrote:
> On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 9:22:16 PM UTC-7, David DeLaney wrote:
>> On 2015-06-07, nu...@bid.nes <Alie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 2:46:15 PM UTC-7, Ken Quirici wrote:
>>>> On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:43:56 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 3:39:12 PM UTC-6, Moriarty wrote:
>>>>>> It wouldn't matter because, wisely, they didn't bother putting
>>>>>> cardinal directions on the map at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> As David DeLaney pointed out, cardinal directions are not needed.
>>
>> ... well, actually, that wasn't the point of my comment at ALL. And apparently
>> nobody did get it. Ah well.
>
> I got it but Oz never grabbed me the way it does many people (enough that there's a whole universe of it in TNOTB), so I'm not familiar with what's at its south pole. Assuming Oz is spheroidal?
>

Oz proper is a country or empire surrounded by a desert. it's a
rectangular section of land. The only claim to geographic strangeness it
has (aside from various magical land features) is that one early and
widely spread version of the map had West and East swapped in the
labeling; some Ozians take this as being absolutely true, i.e., that
East and West aren't the same in Oz.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

[Alie...@gmail.com]

Dayum:

http://oz.wikia.com/wiki/Maps_of_Oz

Apparently it's Baum's fault.

Wait; does Oz have chaotic rotation so that East and West need not remain constant? Does Oz have a Moon?


Mark L. Fergerson

[Quadibloc]

On Monday, June 8, 2015 at 5:42:10 AM UTC-6, nu...@bid.nes wrote:

> Wait; does Oz have chaotic rotation

... like the moons of Pluto? Saw that recent news item.

John Savard

[Kevrob]

If you run out of ERB, there's OAK.

> > How about JKR?
>
> Yes, and yes.
>
> > Dave, ... LFB? LSMFT?
>
> Hey, I've been watching TV long enough to recognize that last one from B&W cigarette ads!
>
> (Well. I'm balding, but neither little nor wrinkled. So far.)

Similar stratus, here. I only heard "Caaaaalllll for Phillip Morris listening to OTR.

Kevin R

[art...@yahoo.com]

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 5:39:12 PM UTC-4, Moriarty wrote:

> HPL is one of a few authors who you can refer to by initials and just about everyone here will get it and refer to them the same way.

There was a time when HP (Hewlett Packard) seemed like something out of HPL
from
http://fortune.com/2012/05/08/how-hewlett-packard-lost-its-way/

"Decay had begun to show in some HP offices. Mice skittered in the corridors. Spiders fell from cracked ceilings. As the company cut back on trash pickups, detritus piled up, and in one location workers took garbage home in their cars. Upon arrival, Apotheker was informed that HP was missing 85,000 chairs. The figure was so farcical that he had to check to make sure it was right. It was. Hurd might not actually have "burned the furniture to please Wall Street," as HP's chairman, Ray Lane, would later disparagingly put it. But the Hurd era's external success had concealed internal deterioration."

OFSF "Resume with Monsters" William Browning Spencer

[Greg Goss]

I just discovered that I use JEP naturally when making a blog post.
I don't remember anyone else mentioning him when we were holding the
discussion.

[Alie...@gmail.com]

Conversely, when I heard that there was a b0ook titled _Ghost In The Machine_, I thought it would be about a haunted computer.


Mark L. Fergerson