Anyone care to talk about Sarantium?
aja...@my-deja.com
Emperors 2-in-1) this weekend. First - I have to hand it to SFBC-
somebody there has got to be congratulated for getting this out in a 2-
in-1 so quickly.
I really liked being able to read both books as a single set ...
Sailing ends so abruptly I would have been tearing my hair out if I had
had to wait for LoE. Also, I've heard some complaints about Sailing
being slow; I didn't get that feeling, in fact I enjoyed StS as a story
of a journey that was both physical and emotional.
Overall this has been such a wonderful read ... I hope someone has
chained Mr.Kay to the desk so he can write another glorious story
immediately.
More thoughts below
spoiler space for StS & LoE
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Thoughts in random order:
I didn't like the epilogue - rather - I didn't like it that that
particular lady turned up on the Rhodian's doorstep. I totally missed
any romantic development between them during the course of the 2
books ... so it seems contrived that they should end up together. Of
course, in retrospect, the ending of the first book is a giveaway to
the ending of the 2nd book.
Also, I feel like I'm missing out by not knowing anything about early
Byzantine history. For example, Rustem's son, and the family's move,
seem fraught with significance in the book ... except I have no clue
why it/them should be important. Does it tie into Lions of Al-Rassan
somehow? (been a while since I read that).
I liked the (return of) magic; and the characters' acceptance of it.
The young stepmother's actions - totally incomprehensible, yet somehow
very real - that little sub-plot & its images cling to me.
Gisel, the Antae queen, is someone I cheered for.
Lastly, can someone help me out with the historical parallels? As I
said, I'm poor at history.
I got that Rhodian = Roman, & Sarantium = Byzantium but what is Antae,
Trakesian, Banassid (Persian/Zoroastrian?).
The whole era is pre-Islam right? (and the man going into the desert
sands was a reference to Muhammad ?)
Do any of the characters map to historical characters?
thanks & glory to the Blues!
ajante
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ethan A Merritt
>Overall this has been such a wonderful read ... I hope someone has
>chained Mr.Kay to the desk so he can write another glorious story
>immediately.
No, he's on the lecture circuit at the moment, signing books and reading
from the start of _LoE_.
>
>More thoughts below
>
>spoiler space for StS & LoE
>
>Also, I feel like I'm missing out by not knowing anything about early
>Byzantine history. For example, Rustem's son, and the family's move,
>seem fraught with significance in the book ... except I have no clue
>why it/them should be important. Does it tie into Lions of Al-Rassan
>somehow? (been a while since I read that).
It's hinted at. Shaski's prophetic visions in _LoE_ sound similar to
those of Rodrigo Belmonte's son in _Lions_, and the Belmonte family is
raising horses in [the remnants of] Esperana, just as Rustem's family
was setting out to do. But _Lions_ takes place several hundred years
later, so it's a best a connection of distant descendents.
>I got that Rhodian = Roman, & Sarantium = Byzantium but what is Antae,
>Trakesian, Banassid (Persian/Zoroastrian?).
You can pretty much read it from the map of Europe.
Trakesia = Greece (name similar to Thrace)
Sauradia = Jugoslavia/Hungary/Romania/central Europe in general
Karch = Germany/Poland/northern Europe in general (also used in _Lions_)
Bassania = Persia
Antae/Inicii = Goths
>The whole era is pre-Islam right? (and the man going into the desert
>sands was a reference to Muhammad ?)
>Do any of the characters map to historical characters?
Well, it starts out that way, but the story diverges from the history
of our own single-moon world pretty substantially by the end.
Our historical parallels include Justinian, Theodora, and Bellisarius
(for Leontes).
>
>thanks & glory to the Blues!
>
Oh, and the Blues and Greens are taken directly from our world,
as is the riot in the hippodrome that rearranges the imperial succession.
(And, I gather, the recipe for fish sauce).
One thing I wonder about though: at the end of _LoE_, as the bird
sings (I hope that's obscure enough not to be a horrible spoiler),
Crispin reflects that the emperor was originally "Petrus the Trakesian"
and hence must certainly be familiar with the mysteries surrounding the
Zubir. But I didn't quite follow this logic. The emperor was certainly
knowledgeable enough to be familiar with such mysteries, but I thought
they were of Sauradia and North, rather than Trakesia? Not a big deal,
but a little confusing.
Ethan A Merritt
mer...@u.washington.edu
--
Ethan A Merritt
Biomolecular Structure Center, Box 357742
University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
> spoiler space for StS & LoE
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> Thoughts in random order:
> I didn't like the epilogue - rather - I didn't like it that that
> particular lady turned up on the Rhodian's doorstep. I totally missed
> any romantic development between them during the course of the 2
> books ... so it seems contrived that they should end up together. Of
> course, in retrospect, the ending of the first book is a giveaway to
> the ending of the 2nd book.
I thought this, initially, myself. After discussion and much
re-reading, though, I came to the conclusion that it's relatively
foreshadowed. There's already a strong connection forming between them
-- but kept at bay by their respective positions in the world -- when
Crispin is led to his first private audience with Alixana. He's almost
afraid to meet her, and for some reason thoughts of his dead wife float
into his mind. It's very subtle, but I suppose it would have to be --
her relation with Valerius would have become less meaningful if she
threw herself at Crispin, just like that.
> I liked the (return of) magic; and the characters' acceptance of it.
> The young stepmother's actions - totally incomprehensible, yet somehow
> very real - that little sub-plot & its images cling to me.
I really felt Thenais and Scortius stole the show, romantically, and I
had
expected the relation between Crispin and Styliane to do that. A
brilliant set of scenes.
> Do any of the characters map to historical characters?
Some of these are more guesses than others are.
Valerius I=Justin as Valerius II=Justinian (though in the book he's
rather more brilliant than his real life counterpart).
Alixana=Theodora (she and Valerius meet differently, however -- in
reality, Theodora was in her mid-30's by the time she met Justinian).
Leontes=A mix of Belisarius (Justinian's greatest general, apparently
entirely loyal, but distrusted anyhow; his wife, Antonina, was of the
same social background as Theodora was), the emperor Heraclius (tall,
golden haired, handsome, who led Byzantium to some of its greatest
military successes against Persia), and a dash of the emperor Leo III
for the iconoclasm.
Styliane=I'm at a complete loss as to who Styliane might map to best. I
think she's more of a rough amalgam of the femme fatale qualities that
so many Byzantine noblewomen seemed to possess.
Gisel, daughter of Hilderic=Amalasuntha, daughter of Theodoric (quite
different here -- she was middle-aged and never properly ruled alone, as
her son was named Theodoric's heir and when he died young Amalasuntha
managed to rule, very briefly, alongside a cousin; she also never
escaped Italy, eventually imprisoned on an island within a lake and
strangled to death.)
Auxilius, Count of the Excubitors, and Gesius the Chancellor=Narses, a
brilliant leader of the palace bodyguard who was quite important in
Justinian's military policy, and also happened to be a eunuch.
Lysippus the Calysian=John of Cappadocia.
Shirvan the Great=Chosroes I of Persia, one of the greatest kings of
Persia
Pertennius of Eubulus=Procopius of Caesaera
--
[Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter]
"And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-"
"Yes?"
"I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_)
Elio M. García, Jr. (el...@swipnet.se)
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
> One thing I wonder about though: at the end of _LoE_, as the bird
> sings (I hope that's obscure enough not to be a horrible spoiler),
> Crispin reflects that the emperor was originally "Petrus the Trakesian"
> and hence must certainly be familiar with the mysteries surrounding the
> Zubir. But I didn't quite follow this logic. The emperor was certainly
> knowledgeable enough to be familiar with such mysteries, but I thought
> they were of Sauradia and North, rather than Trakesia? Not a big deal,
> but a little confusing.
The region of Thrace that Justinian was from was rather wild. In fact,
his actual birth name is essentially Gothic -- he got the name Flavius
Petrus Sabbatius only after coming to Constantinople at his uncle's
insistence.
So, in any case, the Trakesians of the region from whence Valerius II
came were not that far from the same cultural traditions as one might
find in Sauradia.
d...@faucet.monger.net
Elio M. Garcia, Jr. <el...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>aja...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
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I prefer Taras....
[Everything cut; just one question]
> Pertennius of Eubulus=Procopius of Caesaera
I suppose this is a question for those more familiar with Byzantine
History than I am, but did anyone realize that Pertennius was going
to kill Valerius before it happened?
Looking back, there's a symbolic sense to Pertennius doing the actual
deed (as has probably been pointed out), since Procopius, depending
on who you believe, performed one of the greatest character
assassinations in all of history in the _Secret Histories_.
But I didn't know this until *after* I finished _Lord of Emperors_
and looked up some information on Justinian and his reign.
Did the correspondence between Pertennius and Procopius make it
obvious that Pertennius would be Valerius' killer?
-Dennis Higbee
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
>
> In article <38EA2426...@swipnet.se>,
> Elio M. Garcia, Jr. <el...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> >aja...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >> spoiler space for StS & LoE
> >>
> >> S
> >> c
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> I suppose this is a question for those more familiar with Byzantine
> History than I am, but did anyone realize that Pertennius was going
> to kill Valerius before it happened?
I was really quite shocked at that, though I had known that Valerius's
time was up. But it fits, as you say, with his already working at being
a character assassin. Not so far a step to actually kill the character
in question. His self-centered lament about how the authorities agreed
that a historian should never get involved in the events he records was
utterly despicable. I wanted to strangle him from the time that Crispin
read his disgusting 'account' of Alixana's bath practices and Valerius's
'black arts'.
If he had been exactly like Procopius, he would have made sure his
_Secret History_ was published post-humously and thereby performed a
massive campaign of character assassinations on Valerius, Alixana, and
to a lesser degree Leontes, Styliane, and I suppose Gisel.
Procopius, according to his Secret History, liked _no one_, including
his employer Belisarius. How in the world Procopius got so embittered
towards everyone is one of those minor unanswered questions, I think.
The best guess I've seen is that his career didn't go as far as he had
hoped it would, after all his service, and so he spent his retirement
years cooking up something vile to say about everyone who he felt should
have helped his advancement more than they did (saving Justinian and
Theodora, who were targets from rather early on.)
Kate Nepveu
HUGE, REALLY _REALLY_ *HUGE* SPOILERS FOR _Lord of Emperors_.
(Not for _Sarantium_, as the subject indicates.)
> I suppose this is a question for those more familiar with Byzantine
> History than I am, but did anyone realize that Pertennius was going
> to kill Valerius before it happened?
I may have actually said out loud,
"I can't believe he did that."
(He, in this case, being the author.)
That would be a no.
> Looking back, there's a symbolic sense to Pertennius doing the actual
> deed (as has probably been pointed out), since Procopius, depending
> on who you believe, performed one of the greatest character
> assassinations in all of history in the _Secret Histories_.
> But I didn't know this until *after* I finished _Lord of Emperors_
> and looked up some information on Justinian and his reign.
Ah, I'd done that after reading _Sarantium_.
> Did the correspondence between Pertennius and Procopius make it
> obvious that Pertennius would be Valerius' killer?
Not on the encyclopedia-only version of things. There's very little in
Britannica (or Norwich, below, 'cause I just checked) about events
surrounding Justin I's taking of the throne, else I might have realized
the significance of a divergence I overlooked: Leontes, unlike
Belisarius, married a very prominent women; that, plus Gisel being queen
in her own right, ended up being the keys to the different ending...
BTW, Norwich's _A Short History of Byzantium_ has pictures of two
mosaics in Ravenna (read: Varena) that are quite striking: Justinian &
Theodora, with separate entourages, on facing walls.
I like Crispin's better.
Kate
--
http://lynx.neu.edu/k/knepveu/ -- The Paired Reading Page; Reviews
/* Updated March 2: Many new pairs; Pratchett, McKinley Reviews */
"The aging process has you firmly in its grasp if you never get the
urge to throw a snowball." --Doug Larson
Laura Burchard
Maia <a900...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
>Kate Nepveu schrieb:
>>
>> d...@faucet.monger.net wrote:
>>
>> HUGE, REALLY _REALLY_ *HUGE* SPOILERS FOR _Lord of Emperors_.
>
>> (Not for _Sarantium_, as the subject indicates.)
>I can't believe that Leontes didn't catch up to the fact that
>Pertennius being on the scene of murder was very, very suspicious. I
>mean as long as he thought Styliane innoncent it was at least somewhat
>plausible, but when he admits that apparently all who were in the
>tunnel with Pertennius were guilty... Hm.
>Also, I would have thought that some kind of questioning of Tertius
>and Styliane would have been conducted.
>It was IMHO a bit too pat how Leontes accepted Gisel's and Gesius's
>deductions on faith, seeing how both of them were powerfully motivated
>to remove Styliane from the picture.
Yeah, but the thing was, _so was Leontes_. Styliane gone -- he can marry
Gisel and reunite East and West remnents of Rhodius's empire. Styliane
there -- he will forever after be followed by the whisper that he had
Valerius killed, and in such an impious way.
Laura
--
Laura Burchard -- l...@radix.net -- http://www.radix.net/~lhb
X-Review: http://traveller.simplenet.com/xfiles/episode.htm
"Good design is clear thinking made visible." -- Edward Tufte
Kate Nepveu
> Kate Nepveu schrieb:
> > HUGE, REALLY _REALLY_ *HUGE* SPOILERS FOR _Lord of Emperors_.
SPOILERS.
> What an irony, that it was actually Valerius's mercy and humanism
> (spurius as they were) that got him killed.
I missed, the first time around, that Valerius had intended to have her
& Leontes succeed him. Oh, ouch...
Kate Nepveu
> In article <38EA78F6...@unet.univie.ac.at>,
> Maia <a900...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote:
> >> HUGE, REALLY _REALLY_ *HUGE* SPOILERS FOR _Lord of Emperors_.
Gah! _DON'T REMOVE THE SPOILER SPACE!_
SPOILERS.
> >I can't believe that Leontes didn't catch up to the fact that
> >Pertennius being on the scene of murder was very, very suspicious. I
> >mean as long as he thought Styliane innoncent it was at least somewhat
> >plausible, but when he admits that apparently all who were in the
> >tunnel with Pertennius were guilty... Hm.
Perhaps Leontes, being a man of action, is inclined to overlook a gray
little clerk?
> >Also, I would have thought that some kind of questioning of Tertius
> >and Styliane would have been conducted.
> >It was IMHO a bit too pat how Leontes accepted Gisel's and Gesius's
> >deductions on faith, seeing how both of them were powerfully motivated
> >to remove Styliane from the picture.
> Yeah, but the thing was, _so was Leontes_. Styliane gone -- he can marry
> Gisel and reunite East and West remnents of Rhodius's empire. Styliane
> there -- he will forever after be followed by the whisper that he had
> Valerius killed, and in such an impious way.
I think that helps, sure, but that story about her getting there too
late was just ridiculous, and whatever his feelings about her (which to
me are very ambiguous), once he had that absurdity shoved in his face...
Kate Nepveu
Lots and lots of _really big_ spoilers.
> > Not on the encyclopedia-only version of things. There's very little in
> > Britannica (or Norwich, below, 'cause I just checked) about events
> > surrounding Justin I's taking of the throne, else I might have realized
> > the significance of a divergence I overlooked: Leontes, unlike
> > Belisarius, married a very prominent women; that, plus Gisel being queen
> > in her own right, ended up being the keys to the different ending...
> I don't know if Leontes being married to Styliane actually makes that
> large a difference as far as Leontes ending up on the throne. Styliane's
> marriage to him, on the other hand, has little impact on the plot
> against Valerius.
Huh? Is that a typo? She thought she wanted to take power, and she
used Leontes to do it.
In a larger sense, we have Styliane v. another dancer (in our world)
because of conversation of characters.
> What does make a large difference is the fact that Valerius has an
> immense amount of trust in Leontes. If Justinian had trusted Belisarius
> ... things would be very different, and I shouldn't bother speculating
> beyond suggesting that Belisarius would have been Caesar and then
> Augustus quickly enough, to end up senior Emperor when Justinian died
> (if he out-lived Justinian).
Valerius is certainly a lot more sympathetic than Justinian gets
portrayed.
> I think another key difference in the books, if not _the_ key, is that
> Valerius's nephews (mentioned way back in _Sailing_) were a feckless lot
> and so he refused to countenance them as his successors and made it
> strictly clear that they would remain in Trakesia. Justinian had Justin
> II.
Ah yes; I don't know much about Justin II, which is why I didn't
realize. Plus I thought it appropriate that the major changes, like the
rest of the plot, centered around the women.
(My favorite structure-related-insight is that the trio of women at the
center of the novel are sufficiently important that they cast their own
shadows. It doesn't really work for the men.)
[...]
> And thinking along different lines, if Valerius had worthless nephews
> and seriously distrusted the too-popular Leontes, I could see Plautus
> Bonosus ending up emperor. Which isn't bad, given how Cleander turns out
> in the end. He would have made a great emperor. Pointless speculation,
> but that would have been a _real_ surprise. ;)
Is Cleander supposed to be a historical figure that a reader should
recognize?
And I doubt Bonosus would be emperor--he was an interesting and fairly
decent person, but he didn't seem that remarkable to me. (I don't know
how his affairs would have played into that.)
Maia
And what a great book it is!
> (Not for _Sarantium_, as the subject indicates.)
> > I suppose this is a question for those more familiar with Byzantine
> > History than I am, but did anyone realize that Pertennius was going
> > to kill Valerius before it happened?
>
> I may have actually said out loud,
>
> "I can't believe he did that."
I can't believe that Leontes didn't catch up to the fact that
Pertennius being on the scene of murder was very, very suspicious. I
mean as long as he thought Styliane innoncent it was at least somewhat
plausible, but when he admits that apparently all who were in the
tunnel with Pertennius were guilty... Hm.
Also, I would have thought that some kind of questioning of Tertius
and Styliane would have been conducted.
It was IMHO a bit too pat how Leontes accepted Gisel's and Gesius's
deductions on faith, seeing how both of them were powerfully motivated
to remove Styliane from the picture.
> (He, in this case, being the author.)
>
> That would be a no.
I didn't expect it either. I wasn't even sure that Valerius would die
in the tunnel - it was really very poignant how he almost escaped. And
to think that someone disliked Valerius and Alixana after "Sailing..."
on the grounds of them being inhumanely clever and perceptive!
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
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Kate Nepveu wrote:
> Not on the encyclopedia-only version of things. There's very little in
> Britannica (or Norwich, below, 'cause I just checked) about events
> surrounding Justin I's taking of the throne, else I might have realized
> the significance of a divergence I overlooked: Leontes, unlike
> Belisarius, married a very prominent women; that, plus Gisel being queen
> in her own right, ended up being the keys to the different ending...
I don't know if Leontes being married to Styliane actually makes that
large a difference as far as Leontes ending up on the throne. Styliane's
marriage to him, on the other hand, has little impact on the plot
against Valerius.
What does make a large difference is the fact that Valerius has an
immense amount of trust in Leontes. If Justinian had trusted Belisarius
... things would be very different, and I shouldn't bother speculating
beyond suggesting that Belisarius would have been Caesar and then
Augustus quickly enough, to end up senior Emperor when Justinian died
(if he out-lived Justinian).
I think another key difference in the books, if not _the_ key, is that
Valerius's nephews (mentioned way back in _Sailing_) were a feckless lot
and so he refused to countenance them as his successors and made it
strictly clear that they would remain in Trakesia. Justinian had Justin
II. Of course, Justin wasn't much of an emperor (though some of his
acts, in regards to taxation and such, were intelligent enough),
throwing the empire into a series of ill-timed wars because of his
confidence that no one with half a mind would dare take him on. He ended
up paying through the nose to appease the people he had refused the
usual payments to. He also went rather mad after a few years.
If Valerius had a nephew who seemed to be decent, he very probably
would have brought him to Sarantium and tried to mold him just as he
tried to mold Leontes. Presuming the nephew was of the same quality as
Justin II was, however, it's improbable that he would have been chosen
over Leontes. Although, whether Leontes would have accepted the
nomination to the imperial throne is hard to gauge. I don't believe he
would, unless Styliane managed to put the pseudo-Justin in a bad light,
perhaps throwing him in as a member of the conspiracy against Valerius.
And thinking along different lines, if Valerius had worthless nephews
and seriously distrusted the too-popular Leontes, I could see Plautus
Bonosus ending up emperor. Which isn't bad, given how Cleander turns out
in the end. He would have made a great emperor. Pointless speculation,
but that would have been a _real_ surprise. ;)
Jaquandor
>chained Mr.Kay to the desk so he can write another glorious story
>immediately.
His writing process seems to involve a type of "cultural immersion", wherein he
spends a great deal of time researching and perhaps even living in the areas he
plans to use for his works. It's rather unfortunate that the very thing that
makes his sense of setting so incredibly vivid is also what keeps him from
writing a novel in less than three years or so, but I'll take it as is. I
certainly don't want him to become a book-producing machine like Piers Anthony,
who is so consumed by the desire to be prolific that he scarcely notices that
his work is unreadable crap.
Anyway, what do you hope Kay does next? Assuming he stays in the milieu of
Sarantium/Al-Rassan, should he go back to the hayday of the Rhodian Empire, or
perhaps skip forward to the rise of the Starborn? Or maybe something completely
different, like showing us the lands to the north of the current map?
Thus say I, and sayeth I no more.
-J
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
>
> "Elio M. Garcia, Jr." <el...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> Lots and lots of _really big_ spoilers.
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> > I don't know if Leontes being married to Styliane actually makes that
> > large a difference as far as Leontes ending up on the throne. Styliane's
> > marriage to him, on the other hand, has little impact on the plot
> > against Valerius.
>
> Huh? Is that a typo? She thought she wanted to take power, and she
> used Leontes to do it.
The plot against Valerius would have happened anyhow, however, whether
she was married to Leontes or not. Its primary motive was revenge, after
all. Leontes would still have risen to power if he hadn't been married.
He was still the best candidate in Sarantium, and certainly by far the
most popular.
If the assassination had taken place without Styliane already being
married, the logical step would be to try to contract the marriage with
Leontes directly after. He could use the backing of her extremely
wealthy family as he established his reign. The result, I think, would
have been the same however -- Gisel and Geisus convincing him of her
culpability in the death, and his marriage to Gisel.
> Is Cleander supposed to be a historical figure that a reader should
> recognize?
Idon't know. I haven't come across anything that quite fits, though he
seems to have been quite a famous jurist and scholar.
> And I doubt Bonosus would be emperor--he was an interesting and fairly
> decent person, but he didn't seem that remarkable to me. (I don't know
> how his affairs would have played into that.)
There was no one remarkable left in any case, if one presumes that
Leontes followed the same fate as Belisarius and Valerius had no
nephews. With Geisus out of the running because of his physical
shortcomings (ahem), Plautus Bonosus was really the only decent figure
of any prominence. Valerius seemed to respect him well enough.
As to his homosexual affairs, not a real problem -- he probably
wouldn't have been the first or the last, if Sarantium's history was at
all like Byzantium's.
d...@faucet.monger.net
Kate Nepveu <kate....@yale.edu> wrote:
>l...@Radix.Net (Laura Burchard) wrote:
HUGE, REALLY _REALLY_ *HUGE* SPOILERS FOR _Lord of Emperors_.
>
>> >I can't believe that Leontes didn't catch up to the fact that
>> >Pertennius being on the scene of murder was very, very suspicious. I
>> >mean as long as he thought Styliane innoncent it was at least somewhat
>> >plausible, but when he admits that apparently all who were in the
>> >tunnel with Pertennius were guilty... Hm.
>
>Perhaps Leontes, being a man of action, is inclined to overlook a gray
>little clerk?
Both because clerks are despised men of weakness and because
Pertennius' guilt or innocence could only have had a negative
effect on his own situation. Styliane had her family ties
against her; Pertennius was seen as Leontes' grey shadow. Just
about the only way Leontes would not have achieved the purple
would be for his secretary to be found out, since no one would
question Pertennius' loyalty to Leontes. If Pertennius did it,
Leontes must have been involved. (Of course, he wasn't, but try
explaining that to the city.)
>> >Also, I would have thought that some kind of questioning of Tertius
>> >and Styliane would have been conducted.
>
>> >It was IMHO a bit too pat how Leontes accepted Gisel's and Gesius's
>> >deductions on faith, seeing how both of them were powerfully motivated
>> >to remove Styliane from the picture.
>
>> Yeah, but the thing was, _so was Leontes_. Styliane gone -- he can marry
>> Gisel and reunite East and West remnents of Rhodius's empire. Styliane
>> there -- he will forever after be followed by the whisper that he had
>> Valerius killed, and in such an impious way.
>
>I think that helps, sure, but that story about her getting there too
>late was just ridiculous, and whatever his feelings about her (which to
>me are very ambiguous), once he had that absurdity shoved in his face...
Not to mention the fact that Valerius II was about the only person
who didn't think that Sarantium would be a happer and calmer place
minus three young Dalenioi. Having just had the prior emperor's
error thrown in his face (since Styliane indicted that Lecanus at
least was involved), I would think that Leontes would have siezed
at any excuse to get rid of Styliane.
He could afford to keep Styliane alive since, unlike Lecanus, she
had *no* contact on the mainland. At least Lecanus had two siblings
(and a bird).
-Dennis Higbee
d...@faucet.monger.net
Kate Nepveu <kate....@yale.edu> wrote:
>
>> I suppose this is a question for those more familiar with Byzantine
>> History than I am, but did anyone realize that Pertennius was going
>> to kill Valerius before it happened?
>
>I may have actually said out loud,
>
>"I can't believe he did that."
>(He, in this case, being the author.)
>That would be a no.
Yeah. It makes perfect sense *afterwards,* but at the time, I was
stunned.
[Byzantine history as source material]
>> But I didn't know this until *after* I finished _Lord of Emperors_
>> and looked up some information on Justinian and his reign.
>Ah, I'd done that after reading _Sarantium_.
Had meant to, but got hung up rereading _WoT_ and then work got
crazy...
>> Did the correspondence between Pertennius and Procopius make it
>> obvious that Pertennius would be Valerius' killer?
[Differences between the successions of Justin I and Valerius I]
>Leontes, unlike
>Belisarius, married a very prominent women; that, plus Gisel being queen
>in her own right, ended up being the keys to the different ending...
True. And that should have been obvious when it became clear that
Valerius wasn't going to make it out of the book alive.
It wasn't, though. I was especially impressed by LoE because on
page 300, I had absolutely no idea how the book would end. Like a
mosaic, the shape of the plot wasn't apparent to me until most of
the tesserae were placed.
>BTW, Norwich's _A Short History of Byzantium_ has pictures of two
>mosaics in Ravenna (read: Varena) that are quite striking: Justinian &
>Theodora, with separate entourages, on facing walls.
>I like Crispin's better.
Me too, actually. I really need to find a good book on Justinian.
Norwich is useful, but lacks depth (because it's a survey, but still).
-Dennis Higbee
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
> Anyway, what do you hope Kay does next? Assuming he stays in the milieu of
> Sarantium/Al-Rassan, should he go back to the hayday of the Rhodian Empire, or
> perhaps skip forward to the rise of the Starborn? Or maybe something completely
> different, like showing us the lands to the north of the current map?
I don't think going back further than he already has is in the books,
though I wouldn't mind seeing his take on the rise of the Rhodian Empire
or, better yet, the rise of the Jaddite faith. It clearly seems to have
a very different history from Christianity, and I'm curious as to how it
connects to the Kindath religion. The Kindath at the time of _Lions_
believe the moons are sisters to god behind the sun, but I cynically
wonder if they accepted that doctrine only after substantial persecution
by the Jaddites...
Given that he's looked at the East Rhodian Empire, I would be very
interested in seeing the 'Holy Rhodian Empire', if or if not such a
thing ever existed. I suspect a figure like Charlemagne did, so if the
Holy Rhodian Empire was never set up (tenuous as it was) then it'd be an
interesting period to look at. But the one thing that caught my eye in
_Lords_ is the numerous minor references concerning the Moskavites, and
the fact that Perun is a god of the Bassinids (inexplicably, I think,
but by knowledge of Persian religious matters is limited). Perun's a
Slavic god and was a chief god of the Russian's until Prince Vladimir of
Kiev converted to Orthodox Christianity and married a porphryogenita.
So, seeing something about Moskav a few hundred years after the events
in The Sarantine Mosaic wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Kate Nepveu
> In article <k12les4vhhiju58cf...@4ax.com>,
> Kate Nepveu <kate....@yale.edu> wrote:
> HUGE, REALLY _REALLY_ *HUGE* SPOILERS FOR _Lord of Emperors_.
[Pertennius]
> >Perhaps Leontes, being a man of action, is inclined to overlook a gray
> >little clerk?
> Both because clerks are despised men of weakness and because
> Pertennius' guilt or innocence could only have had a negative
> effect on his own situation.
True.
The thing I was dreading throughout the entire last half of the book was
Crispin finding out somehow that it had been Pertennius and realizing
that, had he turned him, he could have prevented it...
All the more reason to be glad when he hit him.
[snip rest]
Kate Nepveu
> Kate Nepveu wrote:
> > "Elio M. Garcia, Jr." <el...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> > Lots and lots of _really big_ spoilers.
> > > I don't know if Leontes being married to Styliane actually makes that
> > > large a difference as far as Leontes ending up on the throne. Styliane's
> > > marriage to him, on the other hand, has little impact on the plot
> > > against Valerius.
> > Huh? Is that a typo? She thought she wanted to take power, and she
> > used Leontes to do it.
> The plot against Valerius would have happened anyhow, however, whether
> she was married to Leontes or not. Its primary motive was revenge, after
> all.
"I could have killed him years ago. A foolish girl, I was. I thought
the thing to do was take power, the way my father ought to have been
given power. Leontes ruling, but only needing his soldiers' love and
his piety to be content, my brothers and I..."
She does say later in the conversation it was vengeance, but that
doesn't negate the _form_ of the vengeance.
US p. 504.
Speaking of piety, was adultery _not_ a sin at this point in time? =>
> If the assassination had taken place without Styliane already being
> married, the logical step would be to try to contract the marriage with
> Leontes directly after. He could use the backing of her extremely
> wealthy family as he established his reign. The result, I think, would
> have been the same however -- Gisel and Geisus convincing him of her
> culpability in the death, and his marriage to Gisel.
You're assuming he wasn't awarded some other trophy wife instead of
Styliane--or hadn't picked his own.
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
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> "I could have killed him years ago. A foolish girl, I was. I thought
> the thing to do was take power, the way my father ought to have been
> given power. Leontes ruling, but only needing his soldiers' love and
> his piety to be content, my brothers and I..."
>
> She does say later in the conversation it was vengeance, but that
> doesn't negate the _form_ of the vengeance.
Yet, if things fell out that she wasn't married, the assassination
would still have taken place and she would have sought another avenue to
power (if she still cared for it). Leontes would still rise to power,
and no doubt she would come up with some other way to take power (though
I don't think she'd much care after getting the vengeance.) He's still
the only clear choice to follow Valerius, married or not.
> > If the assassination had taken place without Styliane already being
> > married, the logical step would be to try to contract the marriage with
> > Leontes directly after. He could use the backing of her extremely
> > wealthy family as he established his reign. The result, I think, would
> > have been the same however -- Gisel and Geisus convincing him of her
> > culpability in the death, and his marriage to Gisel.
>
> You're assuming he wasn't awarded some other trophy wife instead of
> Styliane--or hadn't picked his own.
True, but as I recall they were rather recently married. I couldn't
pinpoint the time, but everyone refers to it as being recent. Indeed,
Alixana calls Styliane 'newly married.' I'd be surprised if they were
wed for more than six months, or perhaps a year. Of course, I may have
missed some details.
Would Leontes have been given another trophy wife at about the time he
was given Styliane, for his deeds in the Majriti? Maybe, but there are
no obvious candidates so there probably weren't any anywhere near as
valuable as a reward as Styliane was. I'm not certain that Valerius
would press Leontes into a marriage if it meant giving him someone who
might possibly insult him for not being 'worth' enough. Better to
cultivate other avenues of reward and leave Leontes with the freedom to
choose himself.
If he got no trophy wife, would he have chosen one himself in that
brief span of time? He seemed rather indifferent to his marital status,
as far as I could tell, and probably would have delayed his decision
awhile longer. He was around his early 30's when he married Styliane, so
he certainly didn't seem to have been in a rush.
Although, now that I think of it, with Gisel in Sarantium . . . Leontes
would have been _extremely_ ideal as a husband and king, and perhaps
negotiations would have begun with her to that end. He would have been
tributary to Valerius and would have held things loyally, with their
offspring unifying the two halves of the empire. Of course, Valerius
would have lost Leontes as strategos in the process, which wouldn't have
put Sarantium in good stead against the Bassanids, but that would have
been a small enough loss.
It's certainly a far more ideal situation than the one at the end of
the books -- there's no way Batiara would have paid tribute, much less
lip service, to Sarantium for very long when Leontes was warring in the
east and neither he nor Gisel had a physical presence there. Give
Leontes twenty years (presuming Valerius lived a natural lifespan; few
people ever make plans with possible assassination or accidental death
in mind) as King of the Antae in Batiara, or perhaps even Emperor of the
West, second only to the Emperor of the East, and the new Rhodian Empire
could have lasted for a good long while unless catastrophy fell upon it.
But I digress. It's all speculation on my part, but I really don't
think Styliane would have waited, and I can't quite see the marriage to
Leontes (or lack of it) having any major impact, beyond perhaps making
the Dalenoi move sooner rather than later.
aja...@my-deja.com
jaqu...@aol.com (Jaquandor) wrote:
> >Overall this has been such a wonderful read ... I hope someone has
> >chained Mr.Kay to the desk so he can write another glorious story
> >immediately.
>
> His writing process seems to involve a type of "cultural immersion",
wherein he
> spends a great deal of time researching and perhaps even living in
the areas he
> plans to use for his works.
> Anyway, what do you hope Kay does next? Assuming he stays in the
milieu of
> Sarantium/Al-Rassan, should he go back to the hayday of the Rhodian
Empire, or
> perhaps skip forward to the rise of the Starborn?
I missed this - who/what are the Starborn?
I wouldn't mind him going backwards in time - maybe to do an Alexander-
era novel.
Jesper Svedberg
(el...@swipnet.se) says...
> Jaquandor wrote:
>
> > Anyway, what do you hope Kay does next? Assuming he stays in the milieu of
> > Sarantium/Al-Rassan, should he go back to the hayday of the Rhodian Empire, or
> > different, like showing us the lands to the north of the current map?
What I'd like to see by Kay is something set in a faksimile of China or
India, or even *gasp* a totally imagined world, mostly because I want to
see his fabulous descriptions of worlds applied to a stranger
environment.
Otherwise, I'd just settle for something set in a Persian empire during
the conquest of Alexander the Great. :)
// Jesper Svedberg
John Hamby
> Jaquandor wrote:
>
> > Anyway, what do you hope Kay does next? Assuming he stays in the milieu of
> > Sarantium/Al-Rassan, should he go back to the hayday of the Rhodian Empire, or
> > perhaps skip forward to the rise of the Starborn? Or maybe something completely
> > different, like showing us the lands to the north of the current map?
>
> I don't think going back further than he already has is in the books,
> though I wouldn't mind seeing his take on the rise of the Rhodian Empire
> or, better yet, the rise of the Jaddite faith. It clearly seems to have
> a very different history from Christianity, and I'm curious as to how it
> connects to the Kindath religion. The Kindath at the time of _Lions_
> believe the moons are sisters to god behind the sun, but I cynically
> wonder if they accepted that doctrine only after substantial persecution
> by the Jaddites...
I think Kay could do wonders with something along the lines
of the Shahanshah. Medieval Persian was a nice rich culture
that is not widely explored.
Others have mentioned Alexander The Great already.
I would rather something set during the first generation of
his successors. Incredibly rich array of characters there.
>
>
> Given that he's looked at the East Rhodian Empire, I would be very
> interested in seeing the 'Holy Rhodian Empire', if or if not such a
> thing ever existed. I suspect a figure like Charlemagne did, so if the
> Holy Rhodian Empire was never set up (tenuous as it was) then it'd be an
> interesting period to look at. But the one thing that caught my eye in
> _Lords_ is the numerous minor references concerning the Moskavites, and
> the fact that Perun is a god of the Bassinids (inexplicably, I think,
> but by knowledge of Persian religious matters is limited). Perun's a
> Slavic god and was a chief god of the Russian's until Prince Vladimir of
> Kiev converted to Orthodox Christianity and married a porphryogenita.
>
> So, seeing something about Moskav a few hundred years after the events
> in The Sarantine Mosaic wouldn't surprise me in the least.
We've already had this mutual agreement. Charlemagne is not a bad
idea.
Since GGK always incorporates a bit of the exoticism of the East
in his books (except maybe _A Song_), him going east on the
next venture would be nice.
Other ideas.
Moghul India. Shah Jahan and his sons are perfect
material.
Mameluke Egypt
Ottoman Empire circa Suleymen I.
Whatever it is I have no doubt I shall
want more.
---
JSH
Maia
>
> HUGE, REALLY _REALLY_ *HUGE* SPOILERS FOR _Lord of Emperors_.
> >> >I can't believe that Leontes didn't catch up to the fact that
> >> >Pertennius being on the scene of murder was very, very suspicious. I
> >> >mean as long as he thought Styliane innoncent it was at least somewhat
> >> >plausible, but when he admits that apparently all who were in the
> >> >tunnel with Pertennius were guilty... Hm.
> >
> >Perhaps Leontes, being a man of action, is inclined to overlook a gray
> >little clerk?
>
> Both because clerks are despised men of weakness and because
> Pertennius' guilt or innocence could only have had a negative
> effect on his own situation. Styliane had her family ties
> against her; Pertennius was seen as Leontes' grey shadow. Just
> about the only way Leontes would not have achieved the purple
> would be for his secretary to be found out, since no one would
> question Pertennius' loyalty to Leontes. If Pertennius did it,
> Leontes must have been involved. (Of course, he wasn't, but try
> explaining that to the city.)
Well, yes, but Leontes still could have rid himself of Pertennius
quietly after a decent time has passed. Yet it is more or less IIRC
written in a manner that suggests that doubt about Pertennius never
crossed Leontes mind... That Tertius and Styliane never got properly
questioned, despite the need to thoroughly weed out treason among
Excubitors, etc. And while you are completely right that clerk tends
to be overlooked, one would have thought that daily contact with
outwardly unpreposessing people such as Valerius and Gesius would have
cured Leontes of such naive assumptions.
> >> >It was IMHO a bit too pat how Leontes accepted Gisel's and Gesius's
> >> >deductions on faith, seeing how both of them were powerfully motivated
> >> >to remove Styliane from the picture.
> >
> >> Yeah, but the thing was, _so was Leontes_. Styliane gone -- he can marry
> >> Gisel and reunite East and West remnents of Rhodius's empire. Styliane
> >> there -- he will forever after be followed by the whisper that he had
> >> Valerius killed, and in such an impious way.
> >
> >I think that helps, sure, but that story about her getting there too
> >late was just ridiculous, and whatever his feelings about her (which to
> >me are very ambiguous), once he had that absurdity shoved in his face...
> Not to mention the fact that Valerius II was about the only person
> who didn't think that Sarantium would be a happer and calmer place
> minus three young Dalenioi. Having just had the prior emperor's
> error thrown in his face (since Styliane indicted that Lecanus at
> least was involved), I would think that Leontes would have siezed
> at any excuse to get rid of Styliane.
I can't agree with this. IMHO, Leontes isn't pictured as that kind of
a person. He wouldn't have set Styliane aside if he didn't believe
that she was guilty, even for Gisel and Western Empire. The man had
his principles. Sure, he accepted Gisel's and Gesius's story a bit too
quickly for my taste and without sufficient proof. But the happenings
in the tunnel and especially Tertius's presence there were very
suspicious (which is why I still find it strange that Pertennius got
scot-free) and Styliane herself did nothing to dispel the suspicion.
I don't think that Leontes would have wanted to get rid of Styliane if
not for Valerius's murder, she was no danger to Leontes himself
(unlike to Valerius), not with Lecanus dead and Tertius uncapable of
ruling.
A few other observations:
I immensely enjoyed the return of Scott/Dumas style of main
protagonist. I.e. the one who is able to see history and great
happenings at close hand and who even is able to influence it/them at
the few key points, but who doesn't become a major player himself.
I saw that Crispin was attracted to/in love with Alixiana, but not
that she was with him. However, I loved the ending, even although it
seemed to come out of the blue to me. What greatness should Alixiana
posess to be able to step down to ordinary life and enjoy it after
being an Empress. Historically, IIRC, almost no deposed royal was able
to do so gracefully. Rather, they clang to the pitiful remains of
their former status with nails and teeth...
I wonder whether Kindath's God with two sisters is somehow connected
with the Triad. Granted, it looks more like "Tigana" took place in a
parallel universe to "Mosaic". OTOH, maybe it is sort of mythical
past, like Atlantis, or even biblic events.
The next book? I would like Kay to stop paralleling historical events.
It worked great with "Mosaic", but in the long run it will IMHO rob
him of certain freedom of the plot... Or if he continues, I would like
him to pick some truly exotic setting. Not Alexander, I think,
everyone and their aunt already tried that.
Yes, and if there is some doubt I would like to say that IMHO "Mosaic"
is Kay at his finest, my favourite work of his now and IMHO the second
best fantasy after tLOTR.
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
[Spoilers for _Lord of Emperors_]
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> Well, yes, but Leontes still could have rid himself of Pertennius
> quietly after a decent time has passed. Yet it is more or less IIRC
> written in a manner that suggests that doubt about Pertennius never
> crossed Leontes mind... That Tertius and Styliane never got properly
> questioned, despite the need to thoroughly weed out treason among
> Excubitors, etc. And while you are completely right that clerk tends
> to be overlooked, one would have thought that daily contact with
> outwardly unpreposessing people such as Valerius and Gesius would have
> cured Leontes of such naive assumptions.
I believe the essential is that Pertennius was _sent by Leontes_ to
find out what was holding Valerius up. All the people in the tunnel had,
clearly, been part of the conspiracy -- save Pertennius, who hadn't been
part of it at all. He wasn't involved in any degree to the planning or
preparation, had no foreknowledge, and just happened to stumble into the
scene because he happened to be the one that Leontes (certainly not part
of the conspiracy) sent. He has the perfect alibi, essentially.
And there's no reason to believe that he struck the fateful blow when
there were so many others who had planned to do it themselves, who were
present and part of the conspiracy. And, of course, Valerius's body had
been burned, so there's nothing to even contradict the possibility that
he was killed before the Sarantine Fire was applied.
The only thing Leontes failed in (MHO) was not suspicion in regards to
Pertennius, but in not asking Pertennius what he saw, to confirm the
story Styliane gave. If he had done that, then Pertennius (providing he
claimed to witness things to corroborate what Styliane said, rather than
saying he came to late to be a witness) would have been caught out when
Styliane's obvious role in the assassination was revealed by Gesius and
Gisel.
The lack of questioning of Styliane is for obvious reasons -- Leontes
wanted as little more to do with her as possible. The lack of
questioning of Tertius has more to do with the need to kill him
immediately -- otherwise, someone might begin to think that Leontes had
actually been part of the conspiracy and was letting Tertius get away.
This means he really wouldn't have much of a chance for real
questioning, even if the Excubitors left Tertius, a known conspirator in
the plot that killed their emperor, in any condition to be able to
answer questions. Not very likely, looking at historical precedents.
And, in any case, moving quickly would be an auspicious mark of how his
reign would be -- decisive, confident, no nonsense.
That has it faults, but then Leontes is more straightforward than most
Sarantines and so would be (and clearly is) prey to them.
Maia
>
> I believe the essential is that Pertennius was _sent by Leontes_ to
> find out what was holding Valerius up. All the people in the tunnel had,
> clearly, been part of the conspiracy -- save Pertennius, who hadn't been
> part of it at all. He wasn't involved in any degree to the planning or
> preparation, had no foreknowledge, and just happened to stumble into the
> scene because he happened to be the one that Leontes (certainly not part
> of the conspiracy) sent. He has the perfect alibi, essentially.
Didn't Pertennius enter the passage from the wrong side to be really
sent by Leontes? IIRC Valerius was en route to Tarantine(?) palace,
where the Leontes and the generals were supposedly waiting for him.
Yet Pertennius entered from the side of _Attenine_ palace, where
Valerius just dealt with Chancellor, Questoe of the Revenue, etc.
Elio M. Garcia, Jr.
> Didn't Pertennius enter the passage from the wrong side to be really
> sent by Leontes? IIRC Valerius was en route to Tarantine(?) palace,
> where the Leontes and the generals were supposedly waiting for him.
> Yet Pertennius entered from the side of _Attenine_ palace, where
> Valerius just dealt with Chancellor, Questoe of the Revenue, etc.
Well, Leontes sees him in the Attenine:
"Pertennius! What in the god's holy name is keeping you, man? Where's
the Emperor? Why is the door . . . _where are the guards_?"
It's clear from that that Leontes _did_ send him to find Valerius.
Given that the tunnel is, in general, for the emperor's sole use,
Pertennius went the long way between the palaces after Leontes sent him
to find out why Valerius was delayed, so he clearly expected the emperor
to still be at the Attenine (perhaps because he was just learning the
news from the northeast). When he found that Valerius had already
entered the tunnel a long while before, that gave him enough reason to
investigate the tunnel and come upon the scene he did. He then exits
into the Attenine again, to meet Leontes coming down the steps. He even
intended to walk the long route back to the other palace where the
generals were waiting, but Leontes seems to have grown impatient and
went to look for the both of them.